♪ adrian: 8 south american nations meet in brazil to forge a common policy on the amazon rainforest. but, there are deep divisions on oil exploration and deforestation, as well as conflicting domestic interests. so, what will the summit achieve? this is "inside story." ♪ hello, welcome to the program. i am adrian finigan. it has been 14 years since the last summit of amazon rainforest

nations, a time during which the impact of climate change has worsened well beyond what might have been imagined back then. floods, wildfires, and extreme temperatures have destroyed lives and communities worldwide. meanwhile, countries are missing targets to reduce emissions, as the climate crisis worsens. leaders all agree on the need to act, but big divisions remain on what needs to be done. we will talk to our guests shortly. but first, a closer look at the amazon rainforest and its connection with the nations taking part. the area is vast, around twice the size of india. it extends into eight south american countries, including brazil bolivia, colombia, , ecuador, guyana, peru and venezuela. it is a vital part of the global ecosystem, helping to regulate everything from carbon emissions to water cycles. but its sustainability is at risk after decades of reckless

exploitation. let's speak with our latin american editor lucio newman, who is in the brazilian city of belem, known as the gateway to the amazon. great to see you. what does this summit aim to achieve? guest: the aims are very grandiose. whether they can make a tiny amount or make any inroads, is yet to be seen. this is going to be the summit fourth of amazonian countries. remember, this is not just brazil, it is all of the countries that have amazon rainforest, and they will be joined by other countries on the second day of the summit, the two congos and of course indonesia, which also have very, very large rainforests that need protecting. what they are trying to do is revert climate change, revert degradation, deforestation, increase the rights of indigenous people and others in the amazon region.

here in brazil, for example, there are 11 million people who live in the amazon who are going hungry. they are impoverished, they have no sustainable way of making a living, or another decent way of making a living. there is also slave work in this region. the indigenous populations don't have access to health care, to education. there is a whole list of demands and needs by civil society which will be presenting the heads of state with a list or guidelines, if you like, and demands for what they should be considering and what they should take action on. adrian: some of these nations have domestic issues they are dealing with at a moment. they are hardly focused on climate issues, are they? you say whether they will or not. how difficult is it going to be for them to reach consensus? reporter: there are some areas in which they will reach

consensus, for example, the transfer of science and technologies between countries like vizio, which are more developed, to others that are less developed. should be a no-brainer. the big issue is for the exploration and exploitation in amazon region. i am right at the mouth of the amazon river. on the other side of the river is the rainforest, one of the areas oil companies want to exploit. they argue, in this is true also in countries like ecuador and many others in the region who insist that in order to have development in their country, they need to find ways of extracting oil here. environmentalists will tell you that is absurd not only because it contaminates rivers and soil, but also because humanity is living at a time when we should be weaning ourselves completely off oil. i just spoke to the coordinator of the climate observatory. he said something that surprised me a lot.

he said the reason why there is so much resistance is that oil companies and countries that have oil want to squeeze the last dollar out of those resources before it becomes completely impossible to use oil anymore. before it becomes redundant with other sources of clean energy. brazil's president says he wants zero deforestation, zero contamination, but it is difficult for him to go ahead with that, he will not have the support of many in his country. adrian: very briefly, what role or indigenous people, if any, playing in the summit? reporter: they are very present in the summit. they have brought their leaders from all over the amazon region of not just brazil, but other parts of south america. they are insisting on a territorial right's, the rates to their culture to be preserved and respected and promoted. health education. particularly in this very sensitive area of territorial

rights, it's not just about living in areas that are supposed to be preserved, but they need to those areas to be protected from poachers, and from economic interests that want to encroach on them. adrian: our latin america editor lucia newman, reporting from the gateway to the amazon museum. many thanks indeed. ♪ let's bring in our guests joining us from brazil. from belem, where that summit is being held, carlos peres, professor of tropical conservation ecology at the university of east anglia. from sao paulo, we have jan rocha, a freelance journalist and writer. she has authored several books on brazil, including "murder in the rainforest." also in brazil bram ebus , journalist and research coordinator at amazon underworld, the collaborative investigation into the presence of criminal activities and armed groups in the region. welcome to you all. let's start with you, carlos. president lula de silva said that he has high hopes for this summit.

he said that for the first time, we are going to have a common policy for the preservation of security and orders. how difficult is it going to be to reach consensus with all these nations taking part? to what extent will lula have to water down his expectations? guest: this is fairly unprecedented because the heads of state from all amazon countries, all nine amazon countries are going to be here. and brazil basically leads the way, in terms of the politics of forest conservation, but also in terms of the levels of forest degradation. so, i think it is going to be a very heterogeneous meeting. it is going to be very hard to reach complete consensus. but it has been a remarkable gathering. previous to the meeting on the heads of states and the idea is that they are going to propose a

so-called amazon parliament. how exactly that is going to be done is anybody's guess. i am here in los angeles, where huge amount of people are waiting for the heads of states and the main amazonian transaction, tropical force countries including the big talk from the congo basin and indonesia. adrian: what is your feeling on this? is president lula da silva going to have to water down his expectations on this? guest: it is the meeting of several countries with very different situations in terms of what they are actually doing in the amazon forest. there is a lot of oil exploration going on already. so lula, who's very good at sort of finding the middle way

, because he has to do that politically all the time, i think in the end, there will be a declaration of states like the importance of saving at least 80% of the amazon rainforest. but they will not take a firm stand against oil exploration. because brazil itself, there is a move by the state oil company to drill for oil in the mouth of the amazon. and lula favors that. so he has to take a middle stand. but the purpose of this meeting, is the amazon countries, together to take a stand and demand a greater voice in the current discussions which are going on at the various cops and international meetings, and also raise significant is the fact that just before the official summit, the indigenous people from all over the amazon came together in belem, almost 1000 of them. and what they said at their

meeting was, "we want a voice in what is happening. we want to be heard. because without us, there is no future for the amazon." so the indigenous people who are talking to the emerson country leaders saying, "we want a bigger voice at your table," and the amazon presidents are saying to the world, "we want a bigger voice in claimant discussions." adrian: i want to come back to this issue of indigenous peoples and the role they should be playing in the summit and for the future conservation of the amazon region, but, jan, ecuador and peru are currently dealing with their own domestic issues which could distract them, couldn't they, from environmental concerns. it is protecting the emerson priority for all of these nations -- is protecting the amazon a priority for all of these nations right now? guest: not necessarily. our has decided to make it one of his priorities, but he also has a whole load of other problems to deal with.

but at least he has committed himself to zero for his clearing zero dispersed station -- zero deforestation by 2030. it's not easy because he has a coalition government which includes parties which believe in mining and farming in the amazon. he has taken over after four years of very destructive policies in the amazon from the previous president jair bolsonaro, who actively encouraged illegal mining, illegal farming, land grabbing and so on. so munar is playing a leadership role. he wants it leadership role. brazil, after all, has the biggest share of the amazon, but for none of these countries is it easy to take a 100% stand in favour of the amazon. they have to deal with their internal issues as well. they have to deal with climate deniers within their own countries, and people who believe in oil drilling and oil exploration. venezuela depends on all of that

, mostly of sure. so it is a question of juggling all of these different interests, coming up with a declaration which states certain things. and one of the things i think it will say is to criticize the protectionism of european countries and also say where's the money, where's all the money which is promised? $100 billion to developing countries for protecting the climate. adrian: bram, as jan was saying, lula has pledged to eliminate illegal deforestation by 2030, as has president petro of colombia. is that target achievable? given the various criminal groups that are expanding their activities across the region? guest: thanks for the question. at think we shouldn't -- i think we shouldn't blind ourselves on the number of deforestation. zero deforestation by 2030 sounds good, but it is not realistic. what we observed when we started investigating in the field is that 70% of the amazon municipalities in the six main

countries that share the amazon, are under criminal control. this actually means that certain armed groups and gangs are deciding who can enter, who can leave. who needs to pay taxes to criminal networks and extortion fees, and which are the main economy is dominating daily life and also damaging the amazon. their respective governments are also not able to enter these areas due to security concerns. there is governance, but it's criminal governance. so i think the governments, when they speak about deforestation and mitigating environmental damages, they need to regain the confidence of the populations they abandoned since many decades, or maybe even never had a presence in the amazon, and they should tackle criminal networks because they are running the show. their revenues many times are larger than the budgets of government to combat them. adrian: so you would argue that security must be high on the agenda at this summit.

what can be done to stop these criminal gangs? guest: it's very important that all the presidents come together, for starters. but security must be on the agenda, because of the rising homicide rates throughout the whole amazon. we see an enormous number of massacres in rural colombia in the amazon. and we know that these organized crime networks are able to forge supply-chain relations, to collaborate across orders in a sort of criminal diplomacy, despite linguistic and cultural barriers. of which the government should be jealous because they haven't managed yet to cooperate fully in the amazon to tackle these criminal networks. we need better communication, joint solutions. we don't only need to apply the stick, but we also need to help local populations and develop economic livelihood, sustainable future plans and to have an alternative besides the illicit economy. often times we see that these locals have no other economic

opportunities than to participate in illegal gold-mining, farming coca crops, the main ingredient for cocaine , or other economies that destroy the amazon. lastly, if you are going to have the end of the amazon and you need to choose between feeding your children or conserving the forest, you will always opt for feeding your children first. adrian: carlos, just how close to the tipping point is the amazon rainforest? how long before the damaged data being done to it -- how long before the damage that is being done to it becomes irreversible? guest: we are already up to 20% in brazil and 15% for the pan -amazon, all nine countries. the estimates range from, say you get another 20% of deforestation in the brazilian amazon alone, which is 2/5 of the whole region, would be way

past the tipping point. forests around the world account for 84% of all the carbon stored in all terrestrial ecosystems. the amazon alone is about 90 metric tons. that's about 15 years worth of greenhouse gas emissions. so it is absolutely imperative that we come to an agreement. and much of that agreement basically depends on indigenous peoples and local communities which control something like 45% of the brazilian amazon alone. indigenous territories serve a huge role in forest conservation, because there is relatively little deforestation inside. most of the deforestation is outside those areas. so, at the moment, they aren't actually getting opinion for

this, they are sort of unsung heroes. you could see in the conference here that the local demand for participation at the table, if you like, is increasing. we are seeing lots and lots of indigenous -- adrian: what are the chances of this summit recognizing and enforcing land rates for indigenous people -- land rights for indigenous people? guest: this has been going on for years. we have had a huge slowdown in the demarcation and sanctioning of new territories. with the lula government, this is coming back again. the problem is that over the last 30 years, we have opened the floodgates of farmers from elsewhere in brazil. now it is very difficult to stop that frontier of land grabbing,

logging, farming, cattle ranching and gold-mining mining. the enforcement capacity of the brazilian government is still very small. i think brazil does need international aid. this is coming now with fundo amazonia. but it is a tough task. because if you are going to control 5 million square kilometers with only 30 or 35 people, you are up against a huge battle. adrian: do all of the region's government recognized just how important a role indigenous people play in the conservation of the rainforest? president lula da silva created brazil's department of the free indigenous peoples this year. what about the other nations? guest: it's a very different situation in the andean amazon countries, where indigenous

people, for a long time, have been much more organized than they were in brazil where in a , way, organizations really just begun the last few years. in ecuador, peru, bolivia, indigenous people are much more organized and have a political voice already. . so it is a different situation. even so indigenous peoples who , live actually in the forest have been pushed off their land, their rivers and their areas have been polluted by oil companies exploiting and drilling for oil. so they are in the front line as to this, and as far as criminal activities go, as the previous speaker said, this is an activity which has flourished in the last few years in brazil and in the others. illegal criminal gangs, often connected to criminal gangs in the south, have taken over, because the state, the

government have simply not been there. i think this is the most vital things their budgeting government certainly has to do now, is to have the state active in these areas. much more enforcement. no way that has already began. there has been a big drive to clear out illegal minors from the north of the amazon, for example. a few days ago, the biggest land grabber in brazil who had been clearing forests and putting in cattle farming was actually arrested and all of his properties confiscated. so the lula government is beginning to move forward on those areas, but as the previous speaker said as well, it is a huge area to police, to enforce, to control. and it is providing jobs for people. if they can't work in illegal mining and illegal land clearing, what are they going to do? where are the jobs? that is very important.

scientists have shown that if you leave the forest standing, there are jobs. that there is a bio economy based on the forest using its products, using essences, using pharmaceutical or developing pharmaceutical products. but it is a huge area. the list of things that has to be done, and again, you need money for it. off has started, but there is a way to go. adrian: as you say, it's a vast area but it is almost impossible to police. to do it properly, you will need the consensus of all the amazon nations. guest: and also within brazil, because the brazilian amazon is divided up among different states. sometimes it is very conservative government who actually support illegal mining and clearing of the forest. you have to do with all of these local differences as well. in many areas, it is the local

municipal government which is responsible for the education and health and so on. so it is a very complex situation that will need at least -- lula has a lot of experience in negotiation, but it's not going to be easy. adrian: to what extent is outside funding important here? we have got the u.s. climate envoy john kerry, and president macron of france both in attendance at the summit. do rich nations need to be persuaded to provide funds to protect the amazon? how much are we talking about here? guest: i think rich nations already are convinced about the importance of protecting the amazon, which is the world's largest carbon sink, and therefore, is crucial to preserve the amazon, to mitigate climate change. we also know that the amazon is approaching her breaking point. the amazon can also become one of our worst enemies.

it is of global importance to protect the amazon. funds potentially could be available, because the amazon countries cannot do this by themselves. at first, the amazon countries need to show that they are serious, that they have a concrete agenda and a technical capacity. for example, i was just listening to the other guest talking about the operations of lula, pushing out illegal minors in one territory. but these illegal miners are being pushed across the border to go janne, tulsa renown -- to guyana, to sosurinam, to venezuela. we have these migrating gangs moving their illicit activities. indigenous peoples who lived actually in the amazon forest have been pushed off their land, their rivers. we need more technical capacity. what is also important, and this

is where the global community comes into play, to investigate supply chains. often times the communities that come from the amazon, from deforested areas, they go to international markets. if there is no technical ability -- if there is no tracing ability, there is no response. we need countries in north america, but also europe to step up and find efforts to clean up the amazon. adrian: you say we are close to the tipping point, how long have we got? and we so much to be done, is there enough time to do it? guest: as things go, no. this is where we need a concrete response, a very clear agenda at this amazon summit. the possibility of an amazon parliament could support a reality, we don't really know what it is about. we need concrete measures. medical announcements like zero deforestation by 2030 -- we need

political announcements like zero defer station by 2030. it's easy to say, but they will not be responsible for it. we need legislation, more money on the table for sustainable economies, regional law enforcement actions, responsible international buyers, cleaning up the supply chains, baiter traceability. and i think a clear agenda and proposals with a budget in the next few days. opal lee the international community can get that behind this. adrian: with petro and lula in office, and venezuela's president maduro back at the summit after not attending any regional meetings in recent years, are you optimistic that the summit can achieve something concrete? guest: i am optimistic. just the fact that they're are

having it is important. the fact that before the actual summit, you had this meeting of nearly 1000 indigenous people voicing their demands, that is cause for optimism too. obviously, within the whole framework, you might wonder really what is going to be achieved? but just the fact that they came together, they are recognizing their problems, voicing their demands and wanted to have a more active position within the world climate discussions, i think that is a cause for optimism. there is a lot of hard work involved. a lot of negotiation and diplomacy involved. step. i think that is important and must be recognized. adrian: carlos, do you share jan's optimism? guest: absolutely. this is an unprecedented meeting. there has been very little communication between brazil and altogether, the new countries

before, and i think the amazon conservation treaty has been very powerless to do anything, and i think this is a breath of fresh air. are there huge challenges ahead -- but i think this is a big start. adrian: but time is of the essence. guest: time is of the essence, because, even reducing or deterring illegal deforestation by 2030 is a huge target. and then also there is the definition of what is legal and what is illegal, because what can be legal now can become actually legal in three or five years down the line on forest policy, particularly in brazil. so, yes. absolutely urgent that we control deforestation and buyers in the amazon. and i think this meeting is a big step forward.

adrian: thank you so much, all of you, for taking part in today's "inside story." carlos peres, john rocha and bram ebus. as always, thank you for watching. don't forget you can see the program again at anytime, by going to the website, which is at aljazeera.com. for further discussion, join us at our facebookpage@facebook.com/aj inside story and you can join the conversation on twitter, our handle, @ajinsidestory. from me, adrian fineghan and the team here in doha, we will see you again. bye for now. ♪