to sail such a long journey. adrian: more trouble for donald trump, charged under georgia's racketeering laws for trying to overturn his 2020 election defeat to joe biden. trump says the latest indictment is rigged. how serious is this for him and his presidential campaign? this is "inside story." ♪ hello. welcome to the program. i'm adrian finighan. he has had three communal indictments already this year.

now donald trump has a fourth, this time charged in georgia with racketeering and conspiring to overturn his 2020 election defeat to joe biden. previous charges have done little to dim the apparent popularity of the former u.s. president. he is already the hot favorite to win the republican nomination to run for the white house next year. he says the latest charges are part of a politically motivated witchhunt. his opponents say his crimes go to the heart of u.s. democracy which he has tried to undermine. the decision to charge him and aides came after a two-year inquiry in fulton county, georgia. >> based on information developed by that investigation, a fulton county grand jury returned a true bill of environment. charging 19 individuals with violations of georgia law arising from a criminal conspiracy to overturn the

results of the 2020 president xi -- presidential election in the state. adrian: this is trump's fourth this year and perhaps the most serious. the former president and 18 of his advisers face racketeering charges were conspiring to change the election results in the state. he racketeering charge is unusual. it is usually targeted against the mafia. also indicted, rudy giuliani along with legal advisor john eastman, the source of trump's for chief of staff mark meadows. the indictment includes committing forgery, filing false documents, and urging public officials to modify the elation results. giving false testimony is also on the list. prosecutors say trump spread the narrative the election had been stolen due to fraud. he has denied all 13 of the new criminal cases. trump faces a total of 91 charges.

let's meet our guests. from washington, d.c. we are joined by julie norman, codirector of the center for u.s. politics at the university college london. from taipei in taiwan, ross feingold lawyer and director of the association of america's resident overseas. and from london we are joined by jennifer ewing, spokesperson for republicans overseas u.k. a warm welcome to you all. julie, unlike the federal charges filed by the special counsel for the justice department, this case will proceed in state court. what are the implications of that for donald trump? julie: sure. i think the main implication of that is for a federal indictment such as the last two we have seen. if trump is elected president he could potentially pardon himself or an ally could also pardon him. for a state level indictment such as this one that came out of georgia yesterday, that is

not an option. an president cannot pardon a state level crime or indictment or conviction. so that is the main difference i think people will be looking at. the other thing to emphasize is this indictment is using a different realm, if you will, of laws of crimes that are within the state of georgia that were not included in the federal indictment because they don't exist in the same way at that level. adrian: ok. could there be a way around it for donald trump? for instance, if there is a change of attorney general in georgia? julie: it would be unlikely at this point, because the indictment has already been issued. again, i am not a legal analyst to say for sure, but i assume if the indictment has already gone through, that even a change there would likely be tricky for them to undo the indictment. adrian: ross, could you see trump serving jail time over this or the federal charge? ross: it is certainly possible.

but just to go back to one of your earlier questions, trump's attorneys are going to make a motion to move this to federal court, because there is a provision in federal law for a federal official counting out their duties if they are charged with a crime at the state level. they can try and get it moved into federal court. he tried that with the new york indictment and the federal judge denied it. but different facts, different circuit court. it is possible his lawyers might succeed with this motion to get this -- at least his case, not the case for the other defendants -- moved to federal court. that remains to be seen but it will be definitely attempted by his lawyers. but going back to your question, before indictments and so many criminal charges, it is highly likely he will be convicted by a jury on something, and that it might have a jail sentence. but of course there will be appeals. and it will take years before the appeals are exhausted. and if he is president, he is

not going to go to jail, whether it is federal or state. at worst for him, state jail time might wait until he is done being president. so this is really just the start of the beginning, and it will be a long, long time before he would ever see a day in jail. adrian: julie, could you see this case being moved to federal court? julie: it is certainly a possibility and that is very likely what the trump team will push for. they attempted similarly for the new york case from earlier this year. that did not go through for the new york case, but they will probably try it for this one. the fact it was alleged activity that took place while trump was still in office, they will probably have a better shot at that. but it's unclear if that will happen or not. but i would agree with just the general assessment that whatever level this is taking place at, it's going to take a long time. if there is a conviction, expect appeals. this will not be a short and

easy process ahead. adrian: jennifer, is this as trump alleges, a politically motivated charge? jennifer: i believe so. first of all, we've got to think about the amazing timing on this. we are now four for four with regards for indictments coming out the day after there is really bad news for the biden family influence peddling. so, well done on thd doj, once again. having come out today after something negative for the biden family. the other thing is if it is politically motivated, i do not believe they are going after him because he is the former president. i believe they are going after him because he is running for president and he is joe biden's big political opponent. that's what they are trying to stop. so i don't think the goal is actually to put him in prison.

i think the process is the punishment. they want to fill his dance card with all of these different court dates. some really important dates, like before the iowa caucus, or before the republican national convention. adrian: yeah, but what you are saying is they are accusing the democrats of wanting him out of the race? jennifer: actually, my theory, and some other republicans, is what the democrats want, and it's a very good strategy, is they want trump to be the gop nominee. they want to run against him in the general election. if you notice every time there is an indictment, his poll numbers go up, he is able to raise more money. the base, that 25% to 30% continues to support him. people look at this as though it is a weaponization of the criminal justice system and they want to back him.

now, i believe the democrats also think they can beat him in the general election. because while the hard-core republican base, there's nothing that can happen that will turn them away from trump. the really important people are the people in the middle, the independents, the persuadables. i believe that is about 38%, the voting population. so, are they going to be paying attention to the nuances of this case, or are they just going to say this is too much of a mess, i don't want to hear about trump's issues or biden's issues, actually. depending on which poll you look at, there is something like 60%, 70% do not want to see a trump vs. biden again. they don't want biden to run either. so i think people are looking for fresh blood. but again, i think it is smart democratic policy to elevate trump up so he becomes the gop nominee. adrian: ross, what do you make

of all of that, particularly what jennifer was saying about the timing? surely u.s. justice moves at the speed that u.s. justice moves. it is not partisan, it is independent, it is above all of this, isn't it? ross: that is certainly what district attorney willis said in her press conference. we have to keep in mind that these investigations began pretty much at the conclusion of the trump presidency. so they certainly predate his announcement that he was going to run for the 2024 republican nomination. but it's been pointed out in the last few hours by many commentators in the united states that white-collar investigations typically do take several years. even the hush money indictments in manhattan, that investigation was going on throughout trump's presidency, and it was only two years after the end of his presidency that an indictment

was actually brought. willis has been conducting this investigation since january of 2021. it's really not unusual in complex white-collar cases. so, absent any proof of democrat conspiracy, which may exist but the proof has not been offered up yet that there is some kind of coordination among state and federal prosecutors to bring these actions against trump and to make it very difficult for him to campaign in a primary. but certainly this will create tremendous logistical difficulties for trump. he has court dates, he has to meet with lawyers, he has to plan strategy for the case, and avery day he is in court he is not out campaigning. although that has to be weighed against the very large lead he has among likely republican primary voters. adrian: julie, the district attorneys office in fulton county used a special grand jury in this case. what is the difference between a grand jury and a special grand jury, and why was one used in

this case? julie: the georgia prosecutor had used a special grand jury for the first phase of the investigation. that allowed for a bit wider scope of evidence gathering than you are sometimes able to use in a regular grand jury with subpoenaing witnesses. but the catch is you cannot pursue an indictment through a special grand jury. you sometimes get more information about the indictment had to come from a regular grand jury. much of what was found had to be presented to a second group, which is the group that ultimately issued the indictment we saw come out last night. adrian: the indictment accuses trump of orchestrating a criminal enterprise, violating georgia's rico law, the racketeer influenced and corruption act. what can you tell us about that act? why would prosecutors seek to build a case around it? julie: it is a good question. the rico act essentially covers the crime of racketeering. it was initially used usually to

go after mafia organized crime types, but it has been used within the state of georgia, even by this prosecutor, for everything from teachers involved in cheating scandals, to different alleged gang activities and what have you. and i believe that they are using this in this case because they are trying to tell a broader story, a broader narrative of many different actions that were allegedly taken by many different individuals, but all with the ultimate goal of changing the election results in the state of georgia in 2020. so it's sort of an umbrella approach to telling this broader story of what happened in 2020 and that is why they are pursuing that. it is one reason the indictment includes not only trump but 18 alleged others as well, from lawyers, advisors, etc. adrian: ross, a clerk for the court appeared to post accidentally and number of charges against trump midday on

monday, which trump's donald trump -- what do you make of that? ross: ultimately this will probably be a nonissue, or we will not be talking about it as pretrial motions and hearings occur and ultimately when the trial takes place. in a case of this complexity, given the need for a public relations strategy by the prosecutor's office, and that is totally understandable. she is indicting the former president. it's possible some signals got crossed and a draft may have been prepared and headed to the clerk with instructions not to publish it until we give the ok, but it was published anyway. ultimately i think this is a nonissue. to go back quickly to the rico statute issue, yes, it's correct, historically at the federal level it was used to bring down the mafia. rudolph giuliani and was a

federal prosecutor in manhattan made great use of it, and donald trump was in the construction business in manhattan which the mafia was heavily involved in. he knows what rico statutes are and so does giuliani. i think this was used in part also to scare them because they know very well what rico statutes are. adrian: jennifer, picking up on what ross was saying, how do you think trump's legal team are going to play it? jennifer: i do think that leak, or accidental posting of some of these indictments before the grand jury had actually convened, whether it was a mistake or not, it is sloppy, it does not look good. i also understand they put out the names of the grand jury members, which isn't great. i don't know if you would call that doxxing or whatever. maybe this does turn into a nonissue, i don't know.

but they are going for a wide range of charges. these are rather untested legal theories. so could his attorneys all of a sudden say, this is crazy, you put this out, this is sloppy, what else have you been sloppy on? i don't know, i am not a legal expert, but i am sure they will try everything. that is the issue, we are all sitting here talking about this legal mess, and we are going to be talking about the biden family's legal mess as well. is that what we want going into 2024, is discussing two men's corruption allegations and legal charges, or do we want to talk about who is going to be the next president of the united states? i think the american people deserve better. adrian: ross, as we said at the beginning, it's the fourth indictment this year, the second case to seek criminal accountability for attempting to overturn the election. can he still win the republican

presidential nomination with all of this legal jeopardy hanging over him? his inability to campaign because of it? ross: yeah. as i mentioned, it's a logistical headache if he cannot campaign because he has to attend court hearings. on the other hand, donald trump, ever since he famously came down the escalator in 2015, and even before that in his television and business career, he has an extraordinary ability to get media attention. so he does not necessarily have to be going to the county fair or the state fair in iowa or other places. he knows how to get media attention for himself, and he has got social media tools and other ways to do that. he can just call into certain media stations and tens of millions of people are going to watch him and pretty much every major media outlet, even if they don't like him, they are going to report on what he said. but polls report he has a large

lead among republican voters, and republican primaries are winner takes all. he doesn't have to win by 25% in a particular state, he just needs more votes than any other republican candidate and he will win all the delegates within the republican national committee primary process for that state. so frankly, as of now, he looks like the absolute easy winner of the republican nomination. adrian: julie, picking up on what ross was saying a few minutes ago, if he's the shoo-in for the republican nomination and he is convicted on any of the charges that are hanging over him, can he still be president? julie: legally, he can. there's nothing in our constitution that prohibits even someone who has been convicted of a crime or serving time in prison from also serving as president. that is just not anything that is addressed in the constitution. i think many across the political spectrum will worry

about the implications of that. electability first for general election, then ability to govern afterwards. but as ross rightly pointed out, at least going into the primaries trump has a commanding lead. if anything, the indictments and even a possible convention seem to be mobilizing his campaign and mobilizing his supporters even more than without those things in the mix. adrian: jennifer, if he gets the nomination, he is a shoo-in for that. to what extent are the republicans picking a dud here. allan little meant, who has correctly credited every presidential election since 1994, says trump is done, he has too much baggage and he will not win. jennifer: as i said earlier, depending on the poll, 60% to 70% of voters in the u.s. would

like to see something different than trump and biden running. on the gop side we have a great bench. there's a lot of people i think the americans would like to hear from. whether it is ron desantis, vivek ramaswamy, tim scott, it is a really good bench. and what is happening is every time we are talking about trump, we're not talking about these other people. again, the people who are going to really make a difference in this election are those undecideds and the persuadables. and are they really going to take the time to dig into this legal quagmire? probably not. so, i do not think it bodes well for republicans if he is the gop nominee. i don't. but two things can be right at the same time. you can look at the general election and say perhaps i would like to see another gop candidate, and also look at these indictments after

indictments after indictments the day after that news for the biden family and say this is a weaponization for the criminal justice system. both can be true at the same time and i think that is what is going on. adrian: ross, where will these independents and undecideds go, or really stay away? ross: the interesting thing about that question is a lot of republican analysts will say, oh, we've lost three elections with trump. 2018 midterms, 2020 presidential and collection -- and in part the 2022 midterm because republicans didn't do as well as expected. but the reality is trump moat -- has motivated a lot of people to vote republican who previously were not voting republican. and also just like recent presidential elections, this is going to come down to the margin of victory in a small number of swing states. and in the aggregate, that is

probably 10,000, maybe 100,000 votes at most. we are talking about in georgette where he called up -- it's going to be the same thing again in georgia, arizona, nevada, michigan, pennsylvania, and wisconsin. again, some of those voters, blue-collar voters who switched from obama to trump, trump trump did surprisingly well with minority voters, hispanics, blacks, asians have been shifting votes to republicans and trump. so i would be very cautious about saying he is completely flawed and he has no chance of winning. biden has plenty of laws, as we have been discussing. he is not popular. people are frustrated over inflation. so it's certainly conceivable that in a one-on-one race trump could beat biden if he just beats him in the swing states. adrian: julie, would you agree

with that, if it came down to a rematch they would be incredibly close? julie: indeed, we're already seeing right now, i think this was mentioned earlier, polls show biden and trump neck-and-neck in a potential rematch. these are two candidates people know very well and are in the news constantly. so right now it is looking more even than i think many democrats would expect it to be, for example. if there are democrats pushing for a trump nomination think and it will be an easy win, they should think twice about that, because it is playing with fire. i would second what ross said also. there are the larger polls, but it is also where the votes are. i think we will see those very key swing states being very much in play in 2023, and it will depend a lot on what voters in those particular states choose and do. i would say many voters, some are very strong trump

supporters, some are very strong biden supporters. others are voting for issues that affect people on their day-to-day life. how the economy is doing, how things are going on a day-to-day basis. a lot will depend on what other trends are happening. if the economy keeps improving, that will help biden a lot going into 2024. adrian: jennifer, the elections are a long way away. if he did run and win, what would a second trump presidency look like? remember those words on truth social, if you come after me, i will come after you. jennifer: [laughter] look, i think that is getting to the heart of all that is wrong with some of these indictments, the politically motivated indictments. do we really want to live in a world where we continue to -- i mean, every single president from here on out would be indicted for something. i don't think we want to go down that road. it's very dangerous. more importantly, it is distracting from all of the issues that are important for

hopefully the american people. their kids, getting kids back to school after schools are closed. the environment, the border, whatever. the important kitchen table issues are what we should be discussing, not revenge against someone. but inevitably, that could happen. there's that base, that 25% to 30% of the hardcore trump supporters to believe he is rightfully entitled to a second term. so his first term was four years of peace and prosperity. the conservatives will tell you that he appointed three supreme court justices that they are very happy with. so you know, anything can happen. but as a republican, we want to win, so we want the candidate who is most likely to win. personally i don't think biden will be the candidate. there is no way he can hold off

the floodgates that are starting to open against his family. so, anything can happen, as you just said. we are a long way away. adrian: ross, as far as the republican party is concerned though, is all of this worth it? is all of this controversy worth it? you have the first trump presidency and the damage that did to the republican party's image, then all of this legal jeopardy. how much damage is this doing to the republican party and to the u.s. justice system with trump constantly calling into question its impartiality? ross: trump, even when he was president, during his presidency he would criticize judges and the independence of the department of justice came under question, first with his relationship with the attorney general barr, and the special counsel, muller's report.

these things have been in flux anyway. ultimately if trump is to win again, i think we would probably see a repeat of the first trump presidency when it comes to policy issues. we would see it very different direction on environmental regulations, education policy, certainly the border. for many of the recent u.s. presidents, whether democrats or republicans, they have been accused of operating what is called an imperial presidency. they ignore congress, partly because we are so polarized in a partisan way so very little can get through congress. so the presidents start to be more aggressive with using executive authority than some of their predecessors. biden has done that, as his predecessors did. i would expect trump to do even more of that. sure enough there are policymakers and experts, scholars on the conservative side of the political divide, they are planning for that right now. they are planning on how i second trump presidency could really use to the limit the

president's executive authority. adrian: we must leave it. many thanks to julie norman, ross feingold, and jennifer ewing. you can see the program again at any time by going to the website at aljazeera.com. for further discussion going us on our facebook page at facebook.com/ajinsidestory. and of course you can join the conversation on x, formerly known as twitter. our handle, @ajinsidestory. from me adrian finighan and the team here in doha, thanks for watching. we will see you again. bye for now. ♪

[phone ringing] [dongseop speaks in korean] - he loves this attention. he eats it up. [laughing] when the phone rings, my stomach starts hurting. here we are again, dumb dumb against the world. my brain right now is actually scanning every single little thing that can go wrong because of this show and it's everything i ever wanted, recognition for this decade of hard work. yes, here is korea, but give me this little 10 by 10 room. come on. they always call me the, the [speaks korean], the american misses. to really find out who i am,