08/31/23 08/31/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> idalia is strong strong to make landfall in this part of florida and over 100 years. pres. biden: i don't think anyone can deny climate crisis anymore. amy: hurricane idalia has left a trail of flooding and destruction from florida to the carolinas. we will look at the climate emergency with nasa scientist

peter kalmus, who warns that climate disasters will only get worse. plus, we will look at another crisis, the rapidly shrinking supply of groundwater in the nation's aquifers. >> when we over pump aquifers, what we do is create a space for saltwater intrusion which dramatically endangers both wildlife as well as economic stability of our nation. amy: but first, military coup in the oil-rich central african nation of gabon has ended over 50 years of rule by a single family which had close ties to france and the united states. all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. after barreling through florida, the downgraded tropical storm

idalia lashed georgia and south carolina inundating coastal towns and leaving 300,000 customers without power across all three states as of early this morning. as idalia moves offshore and up the atlantic, north carolina residents are bracing themselves for more heavy downpours and possible tornadoes. officials warned dangerous storm surges are still a possibility. two people died in florida in car crashes linked to the extreme weather. in florida's big bend region on the gulf of mexico, some evacuated residents returned to utterly destroyed homes, including this mother and daughter in horseshoe beach. >> what matters is what i am holding right here. we are going to rebuild. it is going to be fine. amy: president biden spoke at the white house on the federal response to the storm and other climate disasters. pres. biden: i don't think

anybody can deny the impact of the climate crisis anymore. just look around. historic floods. more intense droughts. extreme heat, significant wildfires have caused significant damage like you have never seen before. amy: in the central african nation of gabon, the military junta has announced general brice oligui nguema will serve as transitional leader following wednesday's coup that ousted gabon's president ali bongo, whose family had ruled the oil rich former french colony for over half-a-century. many residents of gabon celebrated bongo's ouster, but the african union and the united nations have condemned the coup, which came just days after a contested election. the ousted president remains under house arrest and appeared in a video wednesday pleading for help. we will have more on gabon after headlines. in south africa, at least 73 people died as a massive fire tore through a five-story building in downtown johannesburg that housed squatters living in cramped, makeshift conditions.

many of them were believed to be migrants. officials say at least seven children are among the dead. harrowing scenes showed scores of lifeless bodies lined up on the street as rescue teams continue to search for people. witnesses and survivors described the chaos as people tried to flee the burning building. >> there were a lot of people. a lot of people died because of the smoke. some of the gates were closed. amy: the building was once an apartheid government checkpoint for black workers. the scarcity of affordable housing in johannesburg has driven people to take shelter in unsafe and overcrowded abandoned buildings, which often lack sewage, electricity, and other basic amenities. the u.n. says fighting between ethiopia's military and the regional fano militia in the amhara region has killed at least 183 people over the past month. a state of emergency was declared in the region early this month, leading to the arbitrary arrest of more than 1000 people, many believed to be young people of ethnic amhara origin.

the latest conflict broke out after ethiopian forces reclaimed major towns and cities in the northern region. amhara soldiers fought on the side of the ethiopian military during the two-year conflict in northern tigray. migrant deaths around el paso, texas, reached a 25-year high this year with at least 136 deaths, roughly 100 of those were recorded starting in may as temperatures started to soar. the death toll is at least 87% higher than last year. the area in question spans the u.s.-mexico border from just east of metropolitan el paso in texas across new mexico's southern border. some deaths were caused by people falling off border fences, but most of them are attributed to extreme heat. ground temperatures as hot as 150 degrees have been recorded this summer amid record-smashing heatwaves. a texas judge just ruled a new state law barring cities from making a wide range of local

decisions unconstitutional. among other things, it would have prohibited water breaks. texas's hb 2127, dubbed the "death star" bill, was set to go into effect friday and was part of an effort by the state's republican party and governor greg abbott to control increasingly progressive and democrat-led cities. the law was challenged by houston, san antonio, and el paso. houston mayor sylvester turner celebrated the decision, saying, "this self-defeating war on cities needs to end." texas' attorney general has already appealed the ruling. the biden administration unveiled a new rule that would see some 3.6 million new workers entitled to overtime pay. the labor department is proposing raising eligibility to salaried workers who earn up to $55,000 per year, up from around $35,500. those employees would be guaranteed time-and-a-half pay after working more than 40 hours in a week.

the change would benefit workers across a range of industries, including manufacturing, healthcare, and retail. some trade groups condemned the rule and could seek to challenge it in court. the congressional progressive caucus welcomed the move but urged increasing the salary threshold to workers making up to $80,000 a year. president biden said he would speak to senate minority leader mitch mcconnell, whom biden called a good friend, after the 81-year-old republican leader froze for around 30 seconds while speaking to reporters in kentucky before two aides intervened. >> i'm sorry, i had a hard time hearing you. looks why do our thoughts of running for reelection? >> what are my thoughts about what? >> about running for reelection. >> did you hear the question, senator? running for reelection in 2026?

i'm sorry, we're going to need a minute. amy: mcconnell continued to just stand there until the aides took him away. it's the second such incident in a little over a month as questions mount over mcconnell's ability to finish out his term. the senator froze in late july while speaking to reporters in the u.s. capitol and had to be escorted away. mcconnell suffered a concussion from a fall in march and has said -- has had several more falls since then. new york attorney general letitia james said that trump had inflated his value by $812 million up to $2.2 billion for years in order to secure loans and business deals. james said in a motion to a judge that there was already sufficient evidence trump and his associates committed financial fraud and a trial was not necessary. meanwhile, trump's lawyers argued the case should be thrown out altogether because the loans in question are too far in the

past to be considered by the court. if the judge does not side with either party, trump's new york trial will go ahead as planned in october. a federal judge found rudy giuliani liable in a defamation lawsuit brought by two georgia election workers after the disgraced trump lawyer failed to turn over information sought in subpoenas. giuliani accused ruby freeman and her daughter shaye moss of committing fraud as they tallied ballots in atlanta during the 2020 election. it was part of the trump team's effort to overturn the former president's loss in georgia. wednesday's ruling means the defamation case against giuliani can proceed to a trial, where -- which will determine damages. they are seeking millions of dollars. and in brazil, indigenous groups from around the country rallied in brasilia wednesday as the country's supreme court resumed hearings yesterday in a pivotal case that could strip indigenous rights to their ancestral lands.

the case is being pushed by agribusiness-backed lawmakers who argue native groups are only entitled to land that they physically occupied when the 1988 constitution was signed. many indigenous communities were expelled from their ancestral land over the years, including during the military dictatorship. this is joenia wapichana, a member of the wapixana tribe and president of the national commission for the defense of the rights of indigenous peoples. >> there is a constitution and it must be respected. we hope the supreme court does justice with the lives of indigenous peoples and protects indigenous lands for indigenous people and all living beings. amy: if enacted, the measure could have dire consequences not just for the indigenous people of brazil, but for the preservation of the amazon and the entire planet. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. nermeen: and i am nermeen

shaikh. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. we begin today's show in the central african nation of gabon where military leaders seized power on wednesday from president ali bongo, whose family had ruled the oil-rich former french colony for more than 50 years. the coup occurred shortly after bongo had been named the winner of saturday's contested election. the military junta has announced general brice oligui nguema would serve as transitional leader. >> all of the commanders in chief and chiefs of staff as well as the generals in the second section of the gabon republic were present for the meeting. general brice oligui nguema was unanimously appointed chairman for the transition and restoration of institutions. president of the transition. amy: gabon's ousted president ali bongo remains under house arrest. he pleaded for help in a video that aired wednesday.

>> president of gabon, sending a message to all of the friends that we have all over the world together to make notice the people here in my family -- my son is somewhere. my wife. [indiscernible] nothing is happening. i don't know what is going on. i am calling you to make noise. to make noise. to make noise. nermeen: ali bongo and his family have been long accused of enriching themselves at the expense of the country. the ousted president's father omar bongo ruled gabon from 1967 to his death in 2009 when ali bongo was elected to his first term. in 2007, a probe by french

police revealed the bongo family had 39 properties in france and 70 bank accounts. both omar and ali bongo were close allies to france and the united states. ali bongo met with president biden at the white house last year. the coup in gabon comes just weeks after a military coup in niger, another former french colony. in recent years, there have also been coups in mali, guinea, burkina faso, and chad. on wednesday, the united nations and the african union condemned the coup. amy: we are joined now by two guests. joining us from france is thomas deltombe. he is a french journalist and essayist. he edited a book titled "a history of françafrique: the empire that does not want to die." that's the title translated from french. and in new york is daniel mengara. he is a professor of french and francophone studies in the department of world languages and cultures at montclair state university. he's the author of "gabon in

danger," the title translated from the french. in 1998, mengara created the exiled opposition movement "bongo must leave," which he continues to head. we welcome you both to democracy now! daniel mengara, can you explain what has just taken place in your country? >> first of all, you for having me. i think i heard in your segments the international community was condemning what was going on in gabon, especially the u.n. and african union. i'm surprised because i believe these are attempted coups that actually must be supported because they are doing what i'm might call a rape of a nation.

gabon has been ruled for 56 years by the same family in the same regime. i don't know if people can imagine what we are talking about here. omar bongo came to power in 1967. he ruled for 42 years. when he died in 2009, his son took over and has ruled for 14 years. what that means is gabon today is one of only two republics to have been ruled for 56 years by the same family and the same regime. for americans who are listening here today, 56 years is equal to nine american president under omar bongo from 1963, linda johnston, to barack obama -- lyndon johnson, to barack obama.

the bongo family has ruled in that regard for democracy. all of the elections in gabon have been stolen. i think the coup is actually -- it is rested tuning today the gaba needs nation a voice that will allow to rebuild. i tend to believe that we should support the coup leaders in gabon. this is the type of coup we should support because it is the result of -- it is a reaction to the fact that once more the bongo family try to steal an election and for once in gabon ese history, the military step in and allow for the possibly of democratic change in gabon if we

are able to negotiate a peaceful resolution to the crisis. nermeen: you have said the coup should be supported by the international community and we have seen some footage of people in the capital celebrating the coup. if you could explain who is behind the coup, what kind of relationship to the gabonese military have with bongo, and the fact there was an attempted coup in 2019 -- what happened then? >> we know there has been general discontent in gabon by the bongo family. now, commander brice oligui nguema is part of the presidential guard. they are protective of the president. in gabon, that has been more

like a personal guard to protect the dictator. so the regular army in gabon has no power, no parliament that would allow it to serve as a republican army. in a sense the guard of bongo has usually been perceived as complicit, protected by the regime. so even a commander who has been accused by the government being behind some of the repression that has gone on the bongo regime, but today we do believe despite all that, their ability to now question the bongo regime themselves and to decide to take over opens up new possibilities for gabon. the reaction of the people has been in general positive because

they are very happy that for once the bongo family has been at least disabled to the point of opening up the possibility of perhaps later on democracy for gabon. i would say if we have to lead to a simple conclusion, we do have to believe this is a rare opportunity for the gabonese people to engage in national dialogue that would allow for perhaps in two years and after the transition to go into a democratic rule. that is why i think the international community must look at this as an opportunity for gabon to enter a new era of democratic change. nermeen: i like to bring in thomas deltombe into the conversation. the book you edited is titled "a history of françafrique: the empire that does not want to die."

if you could respond to what brice oligui nguema has said -- to what daniel mengara has said and the relationship of the military to france. france has reportedly a series of agreements with the militaries of many of its former colonies. it has been 60 -- over 60 years since most of france's african colonies have gained independence, most of which were in 1960, including gabon. but since then, france has intervened the terribly more than 50 times on the continent -- intervened militarily more than 50 times on the continent. >> thank you very much for having me on your show. i think it is very important to go back and no history to

understand what is happening right now in gabon. in french-speaking africa in general. it is good to know the history of what we call -- this term sums up the relationship that france managed to maintain with the former colony in africa, despite war thanks to the independence it granted to its former colonies 1960. gabon is the extreme example of this fake independence. maybe you know the first head of state of gabon was a guy which was dominated by the french and who refused -- he didn't want to

have his country independent. the french forced him to accept independence. they said to him implicitly, don't worry, it is not true independence. at the same time, you will have to sign what we call cooperation agreements. in fact, we give you independence, taking it back with the right hand with these cooperation agreements. these cooperation agreements are at the heart of what we see today. these cooperation agreements allowed france to maintain its military appearances in their former colonies to maintain the monetary system beyond the independence and to intervene militarily wherever he pleased. there had been a first coup in

gabon in 1964 and the french intervened militarily. they immediately began to prepare power from his vice president, the future omar bongo was installed in 1967. the presidential guard itself was trained and formed by the french military back in the 1960's. so it is like the independence of gabon has never been real. we have to bear that in mind, otherwise, we can't understand what is happening right now. amy: to elaborate further on that term in your title françafrique, that is a term come it also --frique means

money, so that is like france's period, in addition to being one word, france is africa said here now with irony? >> yes. françafrique secure access to strategic raw materials. oil, gas, uranium, gold, etc., etc. france could maintain on his former colonies, gabon in particular. because the gabonese elite became very rich thanks to that system, it could send back money to france and secretly finance the political scene.

people from the left and people from the right. and try to influence the political life in france. omar bongo was very, very good at this game. one day on the french radio, said, france can't do anything to come to harm to me because i know so many secrets. among the secrets was the question of the financing of the french political scene. nermeen: daniel mengara, if you could respond to what thomas said, in particular the economic conditions in gabon, the fact the country is extremely rich in natural resources and is one of africa's richest countries on a per capita basis but most of the population is extremely poor. so if you could talk about this fact, the bongo family enriching

itself along with other members of the elite, and the concept of -- what does that mean and how does it apply in this case? >> what we're talking about here is the pillaging of the gabo nese family. a decade ago, there's a documentary published by a french -- one of the french tv stations that published the report that under the french company exploiting gabonese oil, the bongo family reserved itself 18% of gabonese income. compare that to what they allocated to the gabonese nation itself, which was just 25%.

so the bongo family took 18% of oil income. that gives you the magnitude of what we're talking about. i want to go back a little bit and i will come back to the economic element in moments, but i want to go back to the idea of françafrique. why the gabonese are unhappy with why the bongos manage the economy, then we have to go back to a specific notion and understand -- it had been arranged for omar bongo to come to power in 1967. make it look like the americans constitution we have a vice president who would succeed

the president upon the president's death. 's oh bongo came to power -- so bongo came to power based on an arrangement france put together to ensure a soon as the president died, omar bongo would succeed him. and so the relationship has been ongoing forever to the point when the gabonese, when they look at their country, and it is indeed today one of the two highest per capita incomes in africa, the bongo family have basically through corrupt ransacked the gabonese economy to the point the gabonese are not really seeing where that money is going. recently, during the coup, the coup leaders arrested some of the members of the bongo government.

we were surprised to find in their own houses, they were keeping like $7 million. in their houses. that gives you the magnitude of the corruption in gabon. the way the bongo family had basically been acquiring properties around the world, expensive cars, but not much of that has been trickling down into the gabonese people's pockets. that is one of the grievances of the gabonese lies in the relationship between france and the bongo family. amy: professor, your movement is called bongos must leave. will you add to that, france must leave? and you think that general brice oligui nguema will represent something different? how do you take -- how do you think the transition away from the bongos can take place? >> that is a difficult question to answer right now. innocence that you will find that some of the gabonese today

are kind of suspicious because some think it may be a plot by france and the bongo regime to arrange for a fake coup that would allow for continuity even when the bongos are no longer there. that suspicion is there. now, how is it possible that we could see something evolving in a way that would make the people trust the coup leaders and at the same time imagine every consideration of the relationship between france and gabon? that is still a question that cannot yet be answered. but i can say this, we are seeing all over africa today discontent, especially in the french-speaking countries. general discontent where people have been linking the poverty levels in their nations, the

dictatorships that have been suppressing their freedoms. they have been linking that to french control. and now you see when there are demonstrations although -- all over africa, the people demonstrating with russian flights and so on, that is a sign that people are thinking that france is behind whatever is not going well in their nations. i think that is still something the gabonese are going to have to grapple with in trying to find out if the coup leaders are indeed genuine and will try to work with the gabonese people to allow for true democracy to settle in the country in a way that also shows them that they're totally independent from france. nermeen: brice oligui nguema thomas deltombe, if yon

place this coup in the context of the ones that immediately preceded it and in niger in particular, and whether you feel that things will change now in gabon with respect to its relationship to france? >> i think there's a difference between the coup in gabon and elsewhere because the coup leaders in gabon do not seem to want to exploit the so-called anti-french sentiment. they were insiders in the bongo system. general brice oligui nguema worked with both omar bongo and ali bongo and benefited financially. they knew election that took

place last saturday made them -- put them in great danger. they wanted to intervene before a pop the revolt -- popular revolt. i don't know what daniel thinks about this hyper thesis, but i think they want to keep part of the system to continue to enjoy it. on the part of the french, they tend to play dumb. if you watch french television come to ask russians like, how come africans like men in uniforms? how come -- do they like flood were prudent so much? -- do they like vladimir putin so much?

there government and their own indifference for so many years is bearing a heavy responsibility in what we see now. i think we might be witnessing the second independence. a new decolonization process. and all of this pro-russian feeling in africa might be more pragmatic than what the french commander say. and the fact -- i think many africans see the military and the russians as tools, like pragmatic to get rid of autocrats and the french tutelage. this is not incompatible with the desire to desire a class of real independence and real democracy. amy: i'm going to have daniel

mengara respond and also in the last 60 seconds that we have, french oil company totale, where it fits into this picture? >> what is interesting is we have seen some type of disengagement of the french oil companies from gabon. to date, it is owned by a french family, french government. we actually have chinese interest and that makes it less of a problem in terms of where the relationship, the economic relationships are going because france is now not the main economic partner of gabon. that has been a good thing. i went to echo the idea we are

at a crossroads. that is going to open the possibility that if the coup leaders are genuine about their intent, they're going to have to open up dialogue with the gabonese society and political class in a way that would allow for the pressures of the gabonese population. i think that is key. what we're talking about french interest, it is really about how the people react to the coup leaders and how they can pressure the coup leaders into doing the will of the people as opposed to the will of france. i think the idea of a new independence for gabon is true, the potential is there, and i believe we could the something positive coming out of this. i believe that despite the fact the coup leaders are part of the presidential guard, the gabonese

will be mature enough to pressurize -- to pressure them in a way that will allow for a national dialogue to occurred that would open up the possibility of democratic change in gabon in the near future. amy: we want to thank you both for being with us. we will continue to cover the story. professor daniel mengara, teaches french and francophone studies in montclair state university. he's the author of "gabon in danger," the title translated from the french. in 1998, mengara created the exiled opposition movement "bongo must leave," which he continues to head. and joining us from france, thank you to thomas deltombe, french list and essayist. his edited book called "a history of françafrique: the empire that does not want to die." coming up, hurricane idalia has left a trail of destruction from florida to the carolinas.

we will look at the climate emergency with climate scientist peter kalmus, the nasa scientist who has been arrested demanding more action on climate change. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: pierre akendengué. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. nermeen: hurricane idalia has left a trail of flooding and destruction from florida to the carolinas, inundating coastal towns and leaving 400,000 customers across the region without power. idalia made landfall as a category 3 hurricane and was later downgraded to a tropical storm. it was the strongest hurricane to hit the big bend section of florida in over 125 years. the storm produced record storm surge across much of the region. as idalia continues northward, north carolina residents are

bracing themselves for heavy downpours and possible tornadoes. officials warned residents dangerous storm surges are still possible. two people died in florida in car crashes linked to the storm. on wednesday, president biden spoke at the white house. pres. biden: i don't think anyone can deny the impact of the climate crisis anymore. just look around. historic floods. historic floods. more intense droughts. extreme heat, significant wildfires have caused significant damage like we have never seen before. amy: we go now to raleigh, north carolina, where we are joined by peter kalmus. he is a climate activist and a climate scientist at nasa's jet propulsion lab. he is joining us today speaking on his own behalf and not on -- as a spokesperson for nasa. explain why you locked yourself to the jpmorgan chase building, how that relates to your climate

science work and what the south and east of the country is experiencing right now, even raleigh getting the tail end as the storm moves north. >> thank you. the public just does not understand in my opinion what a deep emergency we are in. this is the nearest beginning of what you're going to see in coming years. to me, it is horrifying. i don't think people fully appreciate how irreversible these impacts are. we can't just reverse this. it is not like cleaning up trash in a park. how hot the planet gets is how hot it will stay for a very long time. i feel like climate scientist have been at ward for decades by world leaders. they don't seem to get this, either. i'm glad to hear president biden finally using a little bit to try to wake people up that this

is real, that he continues to expand fossil fuels at breakneck pace. he continues to permit more drilling on public lands at a pace even faster than trump. approve the willow project in alaska. he went out of his way to make sure the mound valley pipeline in virginia and was virginia was approved. he is pushing to expand fossil fuels and that is all of the damage we are seeing, the deadly fires in greece, maui, pakistan. the record heat we're seeing is going to get worse and worse. i feel like we are on the verge -- these are nonlinear changes. it feels like they are increasing very quickly because they interact with society in very complex ways and we are a

lot more vulnerable and i think most people think or thought quite recently. we could start seeing things like regional heatwaves that end up killing a million people over the course of a few days in coming years. it won't stop there. that is the thing. it just gets worse the more fossil fuels we burn. the science, just doing the signs, publishing the paper has not seem to have gotten the message across either to the public or to world leaders. i have two sons and it breaks my heart to see the biden administration continue to expand fossil fuels and take us deeper into this catastrophe instead of trying to bring us back from this. he is deeply on the wrong side of history. choosing jpmorgan chase bank in los angeles last year, that was a strategic choice. a lot of these new fossil fuel projects -- let me say how insane it is that we are still

building -- allowing new fossil fuel projects to be built. anyway, the financing of those new projects is crucial. no institution on the planet does more damage to the earth system, irreversible system, by financing fossil fuel projects that j.p. morgan. nermeen: could you elaborate on the role of the fossil fuel industry, not just contributing over 80% being responsible -- being responsible for over 80% of global heating, but what role, if any, if any, placed in the biden administration, despite what he said there's no question now denying the impact of the climate crisis, he is falling short, even though he said earlier this year he practically declared a climate emergency, is not done so. what would declaring a climate emergency enable? what role is the fossil fuel

industry playing and preventing them from doing so? >> let me start out by saying the public needs to know the fossil fuel industry and its leaders, the executives, have -- and her lobbyists, have been lying for about 50 years. this is very well documented. there's a paper trail. scientists and journalists, there's a very clear and sizable body of evidence that the fossil fuel industry and through organizations like american petroleum institute have been literally lying to the public, trying to spread confusion about the science, countering climate scientists attempt to sound the alarm, creating the sense of uncertainty through their lies, spending dollars on these

misinformation campaigns, and then bribing politicians. i think it was a year ago a story in the "new york times," we all know joe manchin gets a lot of money from the fossil fuel industry but even senator chuck schumer received almost $300,000 in one election cycle from corporation that benefits from the mountain valley pipeline to ensure the mountain valley pipeline was built. so the tendrils of the fossil fuel industry -- it is surprising how cheap it is to buy out these politicians. i know president biden he was during the primaries, a lot of people in his campaign had worked previously in the fossil fuel industry so there's a lot of connection there as well. i think part of the problem is simply we have one of the most powerful industries on the planet, if not the most powerful industry, which has extremely

deep pockets. they have profits of over i think $1 trillion per year. they can spend a tiny bit of that money to basically influence politicians. it is essentially legalized bribery. i think there disinformation campaign is a big part of why the public doesn't understand how serious of an emergency we are in right now. that in turn does not push journalists to connect the dots. i see a lot of stories being reported about these individual climate catastrophes, but they miss very key points in the story. the often use the passive voice. it is being heated up by the fossil fuel industry, by their dishonesty. don't make the connection of -- they don't make the connection

of where we are going in the near future. if we're talking about a deadly heat wave that happens in 2023, they don't say how much worse things are going to get by 2028, 2032. this is what frightens me about climate change caused by global heating. you might have some years that are slightly cooler than others. it is a bit of a nosy trend, but it is rising year on year. the physics is absolutely -- you can't negotiate with that. we understand quite well. we don't understand how it is all going to play out complex human systems. we know it is going to get hotter and hotter, and that is going to drive all of these types of catastrophes that we are seeing to get more intense, more frequent. amy: i want to go to last week's republican presidential debate.

fox news played a question from a student at catholic university of america. >> polls show young people's number one issue is climate change. how will u.s. but president of the united states and leader of the republican party calm their fears that the republican party care about climate change. >> we want to start with a show of hands. do you believe in human behavior is causing climate change? >> we are not schoolchildren. let's have the debate. i am happy to take it to start. amy: that was florida governor ron desantis. he and the other candidates refused to say climate change is caused by humans. the focus on my went on to call it a hoax. >> it is disgusting to me. he made a reference to schoolchildren. schoolchildren understand the science much better than these

adult men who are running for high office. as a parent come as a citizen, as a scientist, i find it appalling and disgusting. i can't mince words anymore. i think too many scientists are holding back and how they talk about this. there's a mountain of evidence that science could not be more clear. there is no debate. it is just ridiculous. i don't know what else to say. just like, how would i be able to argue with somebody who insisted that two plus two equals five? nermeen: we just have a minute. what alternatives to fossil fuel are being explored now? >> let's be really clear. as you said earlier about roughly 80% of global is caused by burning fossil fuels. most of the rest of it is caused by industrial animal agriculture. nothing we do will stop this

besides -- if solution packages don't include ramping down fossil fuels. quickly, they are basically garbage. cop 28, the last few cops, the fossil fuel industry has said the largest group of delegates -- this is the united nations -- delight amy: 20 seconds. >> it is being led by the uae national fossil fuel executives. we have to ramp down fossil fuels. there's no other choice and noble energies are already cheaper. it is just money and politics blocking everything. and the ignorance of some of these politicians. amy: peter kalmus, climate activist and a climate scientist at nasa's jet propulsion lab. not speaking on behalf of nasa

but speaking on his own behalf and some say speaking on behalf of the planet. back in 20 seconds. ♪♪ [music break] amy: "salt in the wound" by boygenius. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. nermeen: "america is using up its groundwater like there's no tomorrow." that's the headline to a major "new york times" investigation that examines how the nation's aquifers are becoming severely

depleted due to overuse in part from huge industrial farms and sprawling cities. the depletion of the nation's aquifers is already having a devastating impact. "the times" reports that in kansas, corn yields are plummeting due to a lack of water. in arizona, there is not enough water to support the construction of new homes in parts of phoenix. and rivers across the country are drying up. amy: we go now to oklahoma where we are joined by warigia bowman, who has been closely tracking this issue. director of sustainable energy and natural resources law at the university of tulsa college of law. thank you so much for being with us. can you start off by explaining what an aquifer is? why these groundwater resources are so critical not only to united states but all over the world? >> thank you so much, amy. it is an honor to be on your show. i have been listening for years. i'm grateful for the

opportunity. for your listeners, and aquifer refers to essentially a container of soil and rock that holds water under the ground. this is not an underground river. rather, it is water flowing through pores rock and soil. if you have an aquifer very close to the surface, we usually call that artesian. that is when you see a spring. if you see a spring bubbling out of the ground, that means the aquifer is very close to the surface. some are deep below the surface and they were formed by glacial rainwater millions and millions of years ago. and aquifer is a fancy way of saying the plate don't holds our groundwater. aquifers are critical for both the united and the world because we get so much of our drinking water from groundwater.

it is really a significant percentage. in california, it could go as high as 60% in a drought year. nermeen: if you could talk about how the central government and state governments manage water supplies? >> the federal government does not deal with ground waters. they have the power -- the supreme court is set in nebraska versus four house that the government has the opportunity to do that, but all water law is done at the state level for the moment. what that means is each different state has a different approach to managing its water. so actually who manages water the local level, that is a municipal issue. it is a little more of an infrastructure issue. in terms of who owns the water

and the legal regime to utilize it, that is a state law issue. amy: can you talk about how aquifer depletion is not solely a problem in the west of the country, how the tap water crisis is emerging in other parts of the country as well? >> ok, well, i am not an expert on the tap water crisis but i will say all coastal regions in the united states are really being threatened by groundwater and aquifer problem. some of the hardest hit are going to be louisiana and florida. new york will eventually be hit. let's take florida. i'm sure you have already heard about how residence in miami are trying to move their properties or find property on hillier areas but places like the everglades, have a very delicate balance of freshwater and

saltwater. but when we overdraw our aquifer s, then you get something called saltwater intrusion which upsets that balance. that is also a serious problem in louisiana. surprisingly, under the mississippi river between mississippi and arkansas, there is enormous aquifer depletions. it is hard to believe because the mississippi such a big region, but farmers are withdrawing water so fast that the aquifers underneath the mississippi river are one of the most endangered aquifers in the united states. nermeen: if you could talk about how the climate crisis worsens this aquifer depletion and accelerates it? >> the first way is precipitation is declining, snowmelt is declining. i mean, snow is declining. aquifers and groundwater, they recharge incredibly slowly.

so if you take millions of years to fill an aquifer, they can be depleted in 50 years. as surface water supplies like rivers and streams and lakes are depleted, farmers and industry are going to draw more from groundwater. and that accelerates the depletion. amy: warigia bowman, we want to thank you so much for being with us, so professor and director of sustainable energy and natural resources law at the university of tulsa college of law. that does it for our show. a very happy birthday, hany massoud! democracy now! is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. e-mail your comments to outreach@democracynow.org or mail them to democracy now! p.o. box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now!]

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