09/05/23 09/05/23 [captioning made possible by democracy now!] amy: from new york, this is democracy now! >> hate will not prevail in america. racism will not prevail in america. domestic terrorism will not prevail in america. and to make it real clear, silence on this issue, both public and private sector -- silence is complicity.

amy: during a trip to florida, president biden denounced last week's shooting in jacksonville when a racist gunman shot dead three black people at a store near a historically black college. we will speak to bishop william barber, who links the murders to the hateful rhetoric of ron desantis, donald trump, and others. then we look at the role of psychologists in devising the cia's torture program as a judge at guantanamo tosses the confession of man who was repeatedly tortured at cia black sites. we will speak to the psychologist roy eidelson, author of the new book "doing harm: how the world's largest psychological association lost its way in the war on terror." >> democracy relies on civil society organizations that are willing to stand up to protect human rights and oppose government misconduct. in my new book "doing harm," i

describe how during the war on terror, the american psychological association failed to uphold these fundamental responsibilities. in my view, the consequences have been tragic for detainees, for the profession of psychology , and for the country as a whole. amy: all that and more, coming up. welcome to democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman. the biden administration will for the first time send munitions containing depleted uranium to ukraine even though the weapons are radioactive and their use causes contamination that is hazardous to human health. reuters reports the armor-piercing uranium munitions are part of a new military aid package for ukraine set to be unveiled in the next week. this follows a previous decision

by the biden administration to arm ukraine with cluster munitions, which have been banned by an international treaty ratified by more than 110 nations. this week, a new report by the cluster munition coalition found 916 deaths and injuries from cluster bombs in ukraine last year. in ukraine, russian drones on sunday struck port infrastructure on the danube river that's been used by ukraine to export food and fertilizer to world markets. ukrainian officials said at least one of the drones crashed in neighboring romania, a nato member nation, though officials in bucharest denied the allegations. in moscow, the russian ministry of defense said russian air defenses shut down -- shot down three ukrainian drones as they attacked moscow, the latest in an escalating series of drone strikes on russian territory. meanwhile, ukrainian president volodymyr zelenskyy said sunday he would fire his defense

minister oleksii reznikov. zelenskyy nominated former crimean lawmaker rustem umerov to replace him. russian president vladimir putin has ruled out rejoining the black sea green deal until western nations withdraw sanctions put in place after russia invaded ukraine. putin spoke from the black sea resort town of sochi on monday after meeting with turkish president recep erdogan. >> as i have said repeatedly, we were simply forced to make this decision since western countries have not and continue to block the implementation of the grain deal in terms of ensuring the access of russian agricultural producers to the world markets. that is, they refused to lift the sanctions on the export of our grain and fertilizers. amy: u.s. officials say north

korean leader kim jong-un will soon travel to russia for talks with president putin. the two leaders are expected to discuss an arms deal that would see north korea provide artillery ammunition to russia for its war in ukraine. meanwhile, "the financial times" reports lenders at four of china's biggest banks have stepped in to extend billions of dollars to russian banks that have faced sanctions since russia invaded ukraine. the u.n. refugee agency is warning as many as 1.8 million people will flee sudan by the end of the year as fighting continues between rival military factions. the u.n. estimates the conflict has already displaced about 1 million people and another 800,000 are expected to leave sudan in the coming months. meanwhile, doctors without borders is reporting sudanese refugees arriving from south sudan are suffering from an alarming rise of measles and malnutrition. in the sudanese capitol of khartoum, many residents say they cannot afford basic necessities, including bread.

>> bread is available that people cannot buy head. a loaf of bread is not affordable. the price is too high for them. amy: in gabon, the leader of last week's military coup has been sworn in as interim president. during a ceremony monday, general brice oligui nguema promised "free, transparent and credible elections" to restore civilian rule but gave no timeline for elections. the military coup ousted president ali bongo, whose family had ruled the oil-rich nation since 1967. oligui is a cousin of the ousted president and the former head of gabon's presidential guard. meanwhile, in niger, tens of thousands of protesters rallied saturday outside a french military base demanding french troops leave niger. tension has been escalating between niger and its former colonial ruler since a military coup in niger in late july.

niger's new military leaders have ordered french troops and france's ambassador to leave the country but france has ignored the requests. protesters in niger on saturday called on the french to leave them alone. >> people say, oh, no, we get paid to go out and protest. that is a thing of the past. it is the people of niger that are out here. you would have to be blind not to see it. we are fed up. we want to be responsible for ourselves. leave us alone. is that too much to ask? amy: chinese president xi jinping will skip the g20 summit when it convenes in india next weekend. on monday, china's foreign ministry said premier li qiang would instead lead china's delegation to talks in delhi. this comes amid a worsening border dispute between china and india, with thousands of troops deployed to a disputed region of the himalayas. a major new report backed by the united nations finds invasive

species are spreading around the world at an unprecedented rate, driving extinctions, transmitting diseases, and threatening food supplies for millions of people. ecologist helen roy, who co-authored the report by the intergovernmental platform on biodiversity and ecosystem services, says more than 3500 harmful invasive species are seriously threatening nature, while causing untold economic damage to humans. >> costs tangible. we can see $423 billion annually . we also know looking back, the figure seven quadrupling every 10 years. we have no reason to think that isn't going to be happening in the future. amy: the first africa climate summit opened in nairobi. john kerry push for the establishment of a carbon market but many african climate justice

activists pushed back against the idea. ahead of the summit, oxfam slammed. according to oxfam, over 31 million people are currently facing acute hunger across ethiopia, kenya, somalia, and south sudan due in part to the climate crisis which disproportionally has impacted the region. in spain, at least three people were killed and three others are missing as unprecedented rainfall inundated madrid and other cities on monday. flooding swept away bridges and halted commuter rail traffic. in greece, where authorities have finally brought unprecedented wildfires under control, at least one person is dead and another missing after intense rain storm battered mountain towns. forecasters say some parts of central greece could see over a foot of rain in just 24 hours. that's nearly double the annual average rainfall totals for the capital athens. here in the united states, a scorching summer heat wave brought record temperatures to

central and eastern states on labor day. parts of wisconsin and minnesota suffered triple digit heat on the unofficial last day of summer. in minnesota, guards ordered a lockdown of the stillwater men's prison sunday after prisoners refused to return to their cells to protest dangerous conditions. advocates say some 1200 prisoners spent the holiday weekend with no access to showers or ice and limited time for recreation due to understaffing. temperatures outside the prison, much of which lacks air conditioning, approached 100 degrees fahrenheit on sunday and monday. in nevada, tens of thousands of participants in the annual burning man festival were left stranded over the weekend after torrential rainfall covered normally-dry campgrounds in mud and made roads impassable for days. attendees had been told to shelter in place since friday. the extreme weather capped a burning man festival that

proceeded despite the objections of climate activists, who on august 27 peacefully blockaded a two-lane highway leading to the campgrounds to demand burning man ban private jets, single-use plastic, and unlimited use of generators and propane tanks. that protest was broken up by a nevada tribal police officer who rammed into their blockade, injuring a protester before drawing a pistol, tackling a demonstrator, and threatening to shoot activists. >> on the ground! get on the ground! get on the ground! >> are nonviolent. amy: in a statement, the seven circles alliance activist group which organized the protest responded -- "the excessive response is a snapshot of the institutional violence and police brutality that is being shown to anyone who is actively working to bring

about systemic change within the united states, including the climate movement." burning man organizers estimate the festival's carbon footprint at about 100,000 tons of carbon dioxide per year, equivalent to the annual emissions of 22,000 gas-powered cars. a judge in florida has struck down congressional maps created by republican governor ron desantis, ruling they violate florida's constitution by diminishing black voters ability to elect the candidate of their choice. the maps were approved last year over the objection a black florida lawmakers who staged an impromptu sit in protest against the congressional redistricting plan. in other florida news, desantis blacked out of a -- backed out of a plane meeting. republican state lawmakers in alabama continue to defy a supreme court order to redraw congressional maps after they were found to have violated the

1965 voting rights act by downloading the power up black voters. the guardian reports that proposed by republicans still includes only one majority black district, making another supreme court challenge likely. and those are some of the headlines. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. coming up, we speak to bishop william barber, who links the racist murders in jacksonville, florida, to the hateful rhetoric of governor ron desantis, donald trump, and others. stay with us. ♪♪ [music break]

amy: "children of the third world" by jamal khan. i'm amy goodman in new york, joined by democracy now!'s juan gonzález in chicago. hi, juan. juan: hi, amy. welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. amy: we are looking now at the

rise in racist attacks in the united states and a new campaign to "take back the mic" from those who seed hate. the latest deadly attack came just over weeks -- just over a week ago in jacksonville, florida, when a white supremacist gunman shot and killed three black people at a dollar general store. then shot himself dead. the gunman used racial slurs and had a swastika-emblazoned assault-style rifle, along with a handgun. he attacked the store in a predominately black neighborhood after being turned away from the hbcu campus of edward waters university, a historically black college. law enforcement officials say there is no question the killings were racially motivated. the three victims were angela carr, jerrald gallion, and aj laguerre, jr. this is sabrina rozier, grandmother of gallion's four-year-old daughter. >> my grandbaby is asking, where

is my dad? i don't have the words right now. i thought racism was behind us but evidently it is not. he was a coward. you went in and shut these innocent people for nothing, that you did not even know. amy: federal law enforcement has opened a civil rights investigation into the attack as a possible hate crime and act of domestic violent extremism. this comes as federal data shows hate crimes are on the rise in the united states and that black people were targeted in half of all the racially motivated hate crimes. on saturday, president biden addressed the jacksonville attack when he was in florida to tour storm damage after hurricane idalia. pres. biden: we are still reeling of the shooting rampage near edward waters university, hbcu, last weekend. a terrorist act driven by racial hatred. our hearts are with you, those

of you who were affected in all your families. terrorist act, as i said, driven by hatred and animus. ladies and gentleman, let me say this clearly -- hate will not prevail in america. hate will not prevail in america. racism will not prevail in america. domestic terrorism will not prevail in america. and to make it real clear, silence on this issue -- both public and private sector -- silence is complicity. we must not, we will not remain silent. amy: president biden was in florida to tour the hurricane damage. governor desantis refused to meet him there. he went around with senator rick scott of florida. just last year, a gunman

targeting black people killed 10 people at a grocery store in buffalo, new york. the tops grocery store. in 2021, a gunman killed eight people, including six asian-american women in atlanta. the jacksonville, florida, shooter reportedly left behind a suicide note and other writings that laid out his racist ideology. now a diverse group of faith leaders is calling on others nationwide to " cease and desist from sowing division and hate." ron desantis at a vigil where he was booed by the crowd with one person shouting out "your policies! caused this" desantis also opposes gun law reform. the new take back the mic from

haters campaign will also mark this month 60th anniversary of the horrific bombing of the 16th street baptist church in birmingham, alabama, often called bombingham at the time, that killed four young girls in 1963. for more, we are joined by bishop william barber, president and senior lecturer at repairers of the breach and founding director of the center for public theology & public policy at yale divinity school. his new piece for the guardian is headlined "the racist murders in jacksonville didn't happen in a vacuum. words came first." bishop barber, welcome back to democracy now! talk about the context in which that young white black shooter leaving behind racist manifestoes first tried to get into a historically black college, when turned away vibrate security guard come open fire -- when turned away by a

brave security guard come open fire at a dollar store. cooks the oldest black denomination has been working with myself and others to bring together a diverse group of clergy to actually have a whole season of resistance and will continue even after the actions this coming thursday, having a press conference to announce what is going on, calling for 10 days of fasting, confession, and repentance. and for politicians to seize and resist. and then calling for communities to take back the mic and mobilize and registered about. on next friday, we will -- there will be a massive leaflets drop in tallahassee, leading from the

conference of the ame church and then on saturday 16th, the one day anniversary after the bombing of the four girls in birmingham, there will be a mass gathering in jacksonville -- diverse. people, together and denouncing all of this hate. we have to talk about what, not just to come has killed these people and what is killing across this country. desantis and others are spewing hate rhetoric. hate against black history, against trans people, against women, against immigrants. the suggestion is these are the problem. we know this division and distraction that use hate rhetoric and culture wars to distract from areas that he has failed as a governor -- which i would like to talk about in a second -- but this has a history.

in the early 1900s, woodrow wilson spewed hate that glorified the klan. in a few years, had read summer where black men and others were killed and run out of town all over this country in reaction to what was being spewed by the president. in 1963, have alabama governor george wallace sang segregation yesterday, today, tomorrow, let loose the idea that black people were the problem. i the end of year, have people blown up in birmingham, dogs sick don children, children blown up in alabama. if you continue down this road -- in 1960, the florida legislator was pushing all kind of divisive rhetoric.

you had the ax handle mob in jacksonville where a white mob beat black while the police watched until black fought back and then they join in. there is this history of not just to coast but what kills and what creates the atmosphere. spewing hate from the most powerful levels of government gives license -- it puts it to suggestion it is all right to eliminate folks. what happens is this guy goes to a blog hbcu. he has been hearing that black history is a problem. if he is already skewed toward racism, then he begins to hear from the most powerful people. this is what you do. he can trigger. we are not saying desantis did the killing, but dr. king said at the funeral of the four goals that were killed come he said, we must not just talk about who but what killed them. lastly, not just desantis.

in florida, he has gotten certain black scholars to join with him and lie about black history and call for the elimination of courses. he has gotten black people to join him, some of them come to join him in pushing against affirmative action program. they are just as guilty as well. it does not matter the color of your skin. once you spew this stuff and suggest people are the problem, it can create all kinds of justifications for violence. juan: bishop barber, in the same climate of intolerance and hate that is promoted by some of these top florida leaders, we see a judge ruled on redistricting case in north florida saying that desantis and the other political leaders violated the state's

constitution, ordering them to create a new map. your response to this news? >> in north carolina, we be back extremists who redistricted and we found the court had engaged in racism was surgical intention. with redistricting, it is another form of diversion and division and lies. it says somehow people are cheating, somehow people are not doing right. extremists want to cheat because they cannot win on policies. they want to create a situation with a stack, pack, and block not just so black can't elect black people, but so others can for future coalitions to elect the candidates of their choice. why do they do this? why are they so afraid? they don't want to talk about the real record. that is why they engage in culture wars. they don't want to talk about florida. there are 9 million port logo

people, 44% of the state, and there policies are not doing anything about that. they don't want to talk with a 7 million voters in florida that are poor and low wealth. if just 3% would vote, they could send any of them home. they don't want to talk about the fact in florida over 4 million people make less than a living wage for the legislature and the governor has been blocking living wages. they don't want to talk about -- that is 32% of white workers and 57% of black workers. they don't want to talk about the fact you have over 2 million people in florida, 2.5 million people who are uninsured. in florida, life expectancy would down. one study shows among republicans, the life expectancy went down and it is connected to the ways desantis and others like him railed against vaccines and protections during covid. they don't want to talk about the fact 8.4 million workers

don't have access to paid leave. they don't want to talk about when you and cut to medicaid, a thousand people who lost access to health care -- they support all of that stuff they don't want to talk about this. they want to focus on culture wars and division and dissension and they want to fight for redistricting -- racist redistricting. that is why when we criticize them, we can't just talk about hate. we have to make the connections. don't just talk about the deaths that are caused when someone uses a gun to kill, connect that to the deaths that, when people are kept in poverty. poverty is the fourth leading cause of death. if you're fighting addressing poverty and living wages and fighting addressing health care, that is also a form of death and a form of violence. we have to connect the dots.

when you suppress the right to vote and you stack and pack and bleach black voters, allow extremist to get elected who did once they are elected, they block health care, block living wages, block addressing poverty. you do those things, people die. bad public policy creates death, racist rhetoric and division, creates a context of death that gives people the license to kill. all of this is deadly and we must take back the mic. raise up an army of love and truth and light that will say we are not having it anymore. we're going to call you to repent and confess and if you won't, then we have to mobilize and send some people home so that they won't have the power and the mic to continue to do with their doing. they may have the same opinion, but they won't have the power of the office and the mic to continue to spew their divisive rhetoric. juan: in this recent hurricane

idalia, the country is facing and the world is facing more and more natural disasters, so many fueled by saudi change -- climate change, governor santos does not even bother to meet with president biden. your response to the president's words? he spoke out against the attack, this racist attack as well is offering assistance to the people of florida ravaged by idalia. >> desantis, trained yale is rooted in meanness. division, deflection, focusing on culture war so he could not be labeled as a failed governor. that is what he really is. anytime you have this many poor and low of people and low-wage workers and you have not address those issues, you are a failed governor. the president was right to call the racism and rhetoric and say

if you are quite and complicit -- i would also encourage the president to go one step further to say it is not just the racist rhetoric in the culture wars and the hatred toward women and toward immigrants, toward the trans community as a form of deflection. in the president show how the same person who is spewing all of this division, guess what? he is not addressing poverty in your state. he is not addressing more than 40% of the people work for less than a living wage even though people voted for a minimum wage to happen in florida. he is not addressing the more than 2.5 million people that don't have health care. in other words, cohen the rhetoric not just the deaths caused by the young man but also show how they are failing in their roles as legislators and that is why they wanted division and deflection and deception so that we don't see how they're

also engaging in the form of policy, violence, which is hurting. it doesn't have to be this way. imagine the same government bringing people together was raising minimum wage, ensuring health care, florida would be a very different place. he does not want people to look at that, so he is posturing himself like the dixiecrat governors of the old south and we need a new cell to rise. -- we need a new south to rise. we are take back the mic. your mobilizing. the fact of the matter is, 2% to 3% of port low wealth voters in florida who have not voted chose to vote, they could send any candidate home, including ron desantis. poor and low wealth vote power.

there comes a time the bible says when the builders rejected have to rise up and become the cornerstone of the new reality. that is what we're going to lunch on thursday and beyond. it must happen not just in florida but across the country. take back the mic. juan: i wanted to ask you, ron desantis is still only -- he is not the major candidate for the republican party. obviously, donald trump still remains the major candidate. can you comment on trump's silence on these racist attacks and hate crimes happening around the country? >> he has laid the foundation so he doesn't have to say anything. the president has laid it down. he does enough at his rally. he is the provocatuer. ron desantis is playing it but i think ron desantis is more dangerous than trump because of

his background, his education, that he is been a governor. trump had never held political office. right now desantis is caught up in the popularity of -- trump has a lot of play within the country because of the ongoing history of racism and division and hatred and meanness i and otherng people turns a lot of folks on. we cannot stay home. cannot have low voter turnout because that allows extremists to get elected. desantis and other words and legislators are more dangerous than trump because they enact policy. they are passing policy. that is what i don't want people to miss. i said to some people, it is ok for us to get upset when he attacks black history. it is right for us to be bothered with it. but let's not think there wasn't

a big problem before this. and there weren't problems just beyond -- desantis is a failed governor. he is a man that only got elected the first time by 1.5% of the vote. he did not get elected overwhelmingly. i did the second time, 3% or 4%. he is not invisible. as long as he has that legislature come they can continue to push and promote not only rhetoric but policy. it is deadly. that is what makes desantis and these other extremist in the state houses and legislators even more formidable than trump because they have legislators. trump right now has this popularity within the body of extremism. but make no mistake, these guys are not just running for office right now. they're running hoping trump goes to jail and they can step in afterwards. if you listen to the republican

running, there is not a penny difference between them and the policies of trump. the only difference is the antics of trump in terms of the way he does some things seemingly illegal. at that the same rhetoric come the same division come the same deception, the same thing -- amy: speaking of taking the mic bishop barber, went after that young white male shooter killed three people, black people, in jacksonville, there was a vigil and governor ron desantis took the mic. but he was booed rally by the crowds. one shouted out " "your policies caused this!" >> florida governor ron desantis -- >> [boos] >> you are welcome here!

-- you are not welcome here1 [boos] amy: you can hear what was going on at that vigil. there you have just the crowd essentially taking the mic. but in tennessee, young man you know well just celebrated his 20th birthday, the legislator justin jones, who was thrown out along with another justin, justin pearson, one represents nashville and the other memphis, of the state legislature. >> justin jones was silenced -- amy: then he was thrown out. they spent a lot of money having to redo the election. he is voted back in and then silenced by the legislature. this is the last minute we have,

but if you could talk about what is happening? >> justin jones got elected in the most diverse district in tennessee. that is why he is such a thing of fear to the extremists. got silenced when he went to the floor to put a slate of policies use fighting for. -- he is fighting for. desantis should have been booed because the only reason he should have been there was to get on his knees and repent for how he has created an atmosphere of othering and division they gives license to this kind of violence. we have seen it through history. i want to say to floridians, even before this happened, he should have been booed for the way he has not dealt with poverty, living wages, for the way he has blocked health care, for the way he lies and cause people to die in essence by saying you don't need to get vaccines. he has a whole record that needs to be booed.

that is what i am arguing for. not just for when he has attacked black history -- sure, what we see here and all that rhetoric has created such a bad atmosphere, but look at his whole record and let's take the mic and mobilize all over the country, starting in florida, people who will not be about partisan politics but principal politics. send we are going to take the mic from you send you home through our votes. our voices and votes will speak. what we cannot have is leaders who use powerful positions to create a kind of pathological atmosphere of violence and destruction. it is been deadly in the past and it is deadly in the present. amy: bishop william barber, thank you for being with us,

president and senior lecturer at repairers of the breach and founding director of the center for public theology & public policy at yale divinity school. we will link to your new piece in the guardian, "the racist murders in jacksonville didn't happen in a vacuum. words came first." coming up, we speak with a psychologist roy eidelson whose new book is just out, "doing harm: how the world's largest psychological association lost its way in the war on terror." back in 30 seconds.

amy: "love theme 4k vhs" by mandy, indiana. this is democracy now!, democracynow.org, the war and peace report. i'm amy goodman with juan gonzalez. a military judge at guantanamo has thrown out the confessions of a saudi man because he had been subjected to waterboarding and other forms of torture at secret cia black sites in afghanistan, thailand, poland, romania, and morocco. abd al-rahim al-nashiri was detained in 2002 and held for four years at the black sites. then in 2006, he was transferred to guantanamo where he has been held ever since. he is alleged to have been the mastermind behind the bombing of the uss cole. in 2007, he confessed to his role in the bombing. but a military judge, colonel lanny acosta, jr., recently

tossed that confession, writing -- "any resistance the accused might have been inclined to put up when asked to incriminate himself was intentionally and literally beaten out of him years before." acosta went on to write -- "even if the 2007 statements were not obtained by torture or cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, they were derived from it." during a hearing last year, the psychologist james mitchell admitted he and another psychologist bruce jessen had waterboarded al-nashiri at a cia black site. al-nashiri was also subject to mock executions, isolation, sleep deprivation, and confinement inside a tiny wooden box. in june, the u.n. working group on arbitrary detention called for al-nashiri's immediate release. the two psychologists involved in his torture, mitchell and jessen, had been paid at least $81 million by the cia to develop and then implement the

cia's post-9/11 torture program. according to the aclu, torture methods devised by mitchell and jessen included slamming detained men into walls, stuffing them inside coffin-like boxes, exposing them to extreme temperatures and ear-splitting levels of music, starving them, inflicting various kinds of water torture, depriving them of sleep for days, and chaining them in stress positions designed for pain and to keep them awake for days on end. the actions of doctors mitchell and jessen led to other psychologists raising concerns about them with the american psychological association, apa, but the concerns were dismissed by the organization's leadership, eager to please the administration of president george w. bush. anti-torture psychologists led a multiyear campaign challenging the collusion of the apa, the world's largest professional association of psychologists,

about 150,000 of them, with the pentagon and the cia. the apa leadership was ultimately ousted, and the apa barred its members from participating in harsh interrogations. we are joined now by the psychologist roy eidelson. he is the author of the new book "doing harm: how the world's largest psychological association lost its way in the war on terror," just out today. he is a member of the coalition for an ethical psychology and a past president of psychologists for social responsibility. we welcome you to democracy now! i was wondering if you can start off by talking about how that legacy of the apa, i mean, they also their leadership, you see it, continuing today? >> the apa got off on a bad foot

after the attacks of september 11 and it took efforts by a community of dissident psychologists, took over a decade for us to bring change in terms of apa's policies toward interrogation and detention operations whether it is at cia black sites or guantánamo. for a long time, the apa said psychologist helped to keep these operations safe, legal, ethical, and effective. and none of that was true. finally, in 2015, the apa, after jim rison's book, revealed an internal report how the apa leadership had collaborated covertly with the military intelligence establishment, the apa made some important reforms.

in the ethics arena. one of them is that psychologists cannot participate in national security interrogations. another is that psychologists cannot be present at unlawful sites like guantanamo unless they're working directly for the detainees or they're taking care of the military personnel, their health care. so it was a huge deal in 2015, this change. and apa leadership almost unanimously supported it. the problem is more a problem, since then, things are step-by-step seeming to slip back and there are powerful factions within the apa and outside of it, primarily military psychologists and the department of defense, that want to turn back the clock.

in fact, they want to expand the opportunities that are available for psychologists to work in this arena where do no harm is at best secondary and sometimes off the table entirely. juan: dr. eidelson, could you talk about how you and other dissenters, the battle that you had, the reaction of your colleagues and how you are able to get the association finally to take a stand? >> sure. it took years of dedicated effort by many people who became known as the dissident psychologists because we were opposed to apa's policies and support of the pentagon. throughout that process, as we developed materials, as we pushed the apa to change what it

was doing, we were constantly confronted by either it was stonewalling -- they would ignore us -- or they would make attempts to discredit us or there were things that essentially mounted to threats against some of our embers such as an ethics complaint filed against one member of the coalition, the defamation lawsuit filed against another coalition member. and their public statements, they repeatedly -- they did not like us, let's put it that way. one apa president referred to as as opportunistic commentators masquerading as scholars. a military psychologists in his self-congratulatory memoir referred to us as clowns who have never seen the whites of a terrorist's eyes. another apa president in her

presidential column seemingly compared us to the to mentors. if you're familiar with harry potter, they are cloaked figures who feed on human happiness. this was the position, the response we got repeatedly. it did not stop us because we felt there was a lot at stake. we lost many battles that i described. thanks to broader awareness, public awareness of what actually had unfolded, apa was kind of pushed to make a decision, are we going to continue to pretend that we are on the right side of this or are we going to institute reforms? fortunately, they picked the latter. amy: i wanted to follow up on our previous segment where we

were talking about roy desantis -- ron desantis, the florida governor. prior to entering politics, the presidential hopeful and florida governor ron desantis served in the navy as an attorney at the u.s. prison at guantánamo and also served in fallujah, iraq. desantis' time at guantanamo is coming under scrutiny after a former prisoner named mansoor adayfi said that desantis had personally witnessed him being force fed and tortured. other prisoners have backed up adayfi's account. desantis has denied authorizing force feeding at guantanamo. this is a clip. >> the washington post posted a deep dive on what you did out there. one of the things they said was that you authorize the use of force feeding -- >> that's not true. >> force-feeding detainees who were on hunger strike. was that true? >> i was a junior officer.

i did not have the authority to authorize anything. there may have been a commander who did feeding that someone was going to die, but i did not have the authority. >> oh that is wrong? >> absolutely. amy: that was on desantis in an interview with piers morgan. but in an interview in 2018, desantis admitted to cbs miami that he had authorized force feeding. >> a legal advisor >> the thing you notice when you get down there, for the detainees come the jihadi was still going on and they would wage jihad. they would have hunger strikes. you had three detainees who committed hunger strikes. at that time everything was legal and one where another. one of the jobs the legal advisor is, hey, you can force-feed -- here's what you can do come here are the rules of that. amy: if you can responded this,

roy eidelson, what desantis response is an how you have shown what is going on at guantánamo? >> sure. basically, in some of those interviews, he acknowledged what he did. he did not, for what i understand, have a high level position at guantánamo but he had a position of some legal expertise and he recommended that one way to deal with the hunger strikes was to force-feed. not only did force-feeding take place, the most brutal form of force-feeding that a seemingly possible was used by the department of defense. there was no reason to do it that way even if there was a decision to do it, which many international experts would say was unlawful. but desantis, i think, is just

an example of the much broader concern which is the number of politicians who have no concern for the detainees who were ever at guantanamo or who are there still now. there was a narrative built from the beginning by the bush administration that the people we have captured are the worst of the worst and that torture is working, is an effective means to obtain information and that using enhanced terror gratian techniques have saved many american lives. none of that is true. they were not the worst of the worst. most of the almost 800 detainees were taken to guantanamo were swept up off of battlefields and afghanistan were exchanged for bounty payments from the u.s. government.

they have no connection to al qaeda, no connection to international terrorism. they spent years in some cases decades at guantanamo anyway. the message that the american people have gotten most often is that we needed to do this, we did the right thing, these were very, very bad people. these were people who would, one general said, who would gnaw through the hydraulic lives in a c-17 to bring it down. desantis, what is most disturbing i think, he has achieved the position he has. he is a seemingly serious contender to be president of the united states. so in that way, he is a bigger deal than many other politicians but there are many in the senate and the house. we should not forget that the

president before this one also had a very positive view of guantánamo, a very negative view of the detainees that have been placed there and was eager to "bad" more people at guantánamo. juan: it was recently approved operational guidelines for members of the apa. your assessment, especially in view of the fact they were written -- put together by military psychologists rather than those harmed by past practices were at this -- ethicsists? >> this is a recent new concern and that is that operational psychologists who are not clinicians come they are focused on issues of national security and national defense, they are eager to expand to do work

that doesn't involve avoiding harm, that doesn't involve informed consent, that doesn't involve oversight by outside ethical boards. what they have managed to do, regrettably, is persuade the apa governing council to approve a new set of practice guidelines. and these guidelines -- basically, now they have the initial stamp of approval that apa is in favor of operational psychologists engaging in these kinds of activities. three things i guess that are especially noteworthy about those guidelines. one, as you noted, they were written by military psychologists -- several of them, defense contractors -- and no one on that task force was an ethicist and there is no representation for the people

tragically harmed by the abuse and torture that psychologists have produced in terms of the treatment of detainees. the other two things are, one, those guidelines make no mention of this awful history of psychology and psychologists during the war on terror. it seems peculiar for someone interested in practicing operational psychology to read a set of guidelines and not even be told about what has happened come about the history -- the troubling history. the other one is there is no mention of apa's current policies. there policies that restrict involvement in interrogations and restrict involvement at guantanamo and similar places. there is no mention of this in these guidelines at all. it is really troubling. it is a sign, as i tried to

suggest -- it feels as though apa is slipping stop slipping back into positions that led to awful things. amy: we have covered this debate within the apa extensively over the years. in 2005, we went to the apa conference in san francisco. you have psychologists putting bags over their heads and looking like the photographs we saw at abu ghraib protesting what was going on. i was struck by the number of uniformed psychologists, military psychologists there were within the association, that were really directing the discussion. we only have a minute. i wanted to ask you about the top lede going into about the military judge at guantánamo who has just thrown out the confessions of the saudi man because he was subjected to torture, waterboarding and other

forms of torture, as cia black sites in afghanistan, abd al-rahim al-nashiri, who was detained over 20 years ago. your response to the judge throwing out what he has said because of torture? we just have 30 seconds. >> in my view, it is an excellent decision. it is the right decision. we will see whether it is appealed and what comes of that. it is important to emphasize that mr. al-nashiri was far from the only detainee who is treated brutally, who was abused, who was tortured not just that cia black sites but at guantánamo as well. so many of them have awful stories to tell if we are willing to listen. this was a massive problem and

mr. al-nashiri is a really important example of what happens when we fail to uphold the principles our country supposed to live under. amy: roy eidelson

hello, awelcome back to nhk "newsline." the war in ukraine and record flaeg inflation have driven a surge in gasoline prices, and that's impacted people and businesses around the world. now officials in saudi arabia and russia say they're going to continue cutting this oil output, pushing costs to the