friendship, the promise of north korea's leader of visiting russia's president. what sort of new era is emerging in relations between the two, what will it mean for the war in ukraine and should the west to be worried? this is inside story. >> welcome to the show. sami: north korea and russia

appear to be cementing their ties with a high-profile visit this week by kim jong un. he's held talks with vladimir putin and discussed defense cooperation. but many in the west are questioning the timing, with both nations facing international sanctions and moscow's forces fighting in ukraine. what are the two leaders hoping to get out of this trip? we will put that to our guests in a moment, but first this report. reporter: getting a close look. north korean leader kim jong un got to see all the latest feature of the russian-made fighter jet. this latest stop in russia's far east as part of his daylong visit to the region. today's earlier, he met president putin at a space space, their first face-to-face meeting in four years.

the north korean we traveled 40 hours in an armored train, crossing the border on tuesday. they held very substantive discussions, but little was revealed publicly. >> i am honored that president putin has showed a deep interest and given us a chance to gain deeper understanding of the current and future of the space power nation. reporter: many believe this meeting could mean new developments in the war in ukraine and for north korea's military ambitions. >> we continue to encourage north korea not to support rush in killing innocent ukrainians. if they decide to move forward with an arms deal, we will deal with it appropriately. reporter: but kim jong-un

appeared to express support for vladimir putin's war. >> there has been a great victory in the sacred struggle for the punishment of the great people -- rvil. north korea is heavy sanctions for its nuclear program. there are reports of food shortages in the country as its economy worsens. kim says the trip has celebrated the country's ties to a new level, but it may be china's influence that will prove crucial since they both rely on it for trade. sami: let's bring our guests in

now. andrei lankov, director of the north korea-focussed news site n-k news. in washington, jenny town, senior fellow at stimson center, a security-focused u.s. think tank. in moscow, andrey baklanov, vice president of the association of russian diplomats. a warm welcome to you all. jenny, what has brought these two leaders together? what has prompted this visit now? >> this is a relationship that has been deepening, especially since russia's invasion of ukraine. there have already been rumors of cooperation of potential arms transfers from north korea to russia. part of the reason we see a summit now may be because north korea is just opening from covid. it is kim jong-un on first time

out of the country since the lockdown. it is coming on the heels about trilateral summit between south korea, the united states and japan. if the u.s. and its allies are going to have these high level meetings, so is the other side of that equation. sami: deepening relationship. when we talk about deepening relationship, what does that break down to? there have been claims that north korea wants everything from grain to help with ballistic technology and submarine technology. what do you make of it? >> they want everything as long as it is free of charge. it is a major problem. north koreans are not known as a nation that is willing to pay bills. and they are quite poor.

they want everything as much as possible. but what are they going to get? in this case, russia will decide what it is going to sell and for which price. sami: what does russia need from north korea? it has been reported in western circles that russia needs more artillery rounds for the war in ukraine. >> i do not think that ukrainian angle is the main and the points of interest. we are more interested in the far eastern situation. this is the point of view of

some of our experts, they think in the period to come, north korea can play a role which cuba played in 1962 in the struggle between moscow and washington. what is happening now deals with the far eastern situation and global situation as a whole. and the numeral north korea can play in the situation. sami: what do you make of those claims, can north korea play a significant role? do you expect north korea will be providing russia with armaments and weapons? >> everybody is thinking about providing some armaments and

missiles made in north korea. it is irrelevant for us because we do not need this kind of help. much more significant for us to make the united states feel additional danger from the territory of north korea, exactly like it was in 1962 when cuba was our main agent which gave this feeling to the united states of america. it was a very important issue. we are now at the point where we need to add something additional to our stance against the united states. this additional element can be a new kind of danger, which constitutes the north korea. sami: jenny, do you agree with

that, that this trip is not about exchanging hardware, it is simply a reminder to the west that we have north korea we can activate. >> i do not think it is either or. i think it is both. there has been expressions of need on the russian side for additional artillery and munitions and it is something the north koreans can provide. will they be game changing in russia's war on ukraine? of course not, but it can help prolong war fighting efforts. i agree that this is a large game that is being played here. you have the united states led security bloc.

now you also have deepening cooperation and a greater sense of security going on between russia, china and north korea. and north korea plane an important -- playing an important security role to both of them. it has higher value now than it did a few years ago. we will see more of this play out from cooperation both from russia and china. sami: ultimately, what would the transfer russian hardware mean for north korea? is north korea on the verge of a technological leap when it comes to satellites and rockets? >> when it comes to rockets and missiles, they are successful and they have already made a

technological leap around 2017 when they developed the missile. i expect no transfer of russian technology will happen. sami: why do you expect that? >> because i do not see what russia will take from it. sami: what about the theory that russia gets artillery rounds? >> how many artillery rounds north korea should ship to russia to pay for some kind of sophisticated missile technology? and once such technology is sent, russia loses control over it.

north koreans are known for their wonderful habit of reselling a they have received from other countries. they would happily resell it. sell it to everybody who needs missile technology. and those countries would pay to north korea, not to russia. all this decision to have these highly publicized visits, for me it looks like a political show. partially as i have said directed at the united states as a reminder that if americans [indiscernible]

russia would be able to create problems for the united states in east asia. i would say the major target is south korea. there have been talks about possible sales of shipments of the south korean ammunition to ukraine. north korea is a tiny country, a population of less than 25 million, and is seriously underdeveloped economy. their own official data, they cannot produce much ammunition. south korea can.

sami: let's give jenny an opportunity to come back in on this. are we making too much of this? >> during the trip, there was no talk about missile technology. it was not that russia was demonstrating it was willing to cooperate and talk about technology transfer on missile technology, it was really focused on rockets and potentially satellites. there has been this other tour of an aircraft factory. i agree that we are not talking missile transfer of missile technology. but i do think there is a strong signal here that the russians

are willing to work with north korea even on sentient technologies, including satellites and rockets. that will help advance north korea's capabilities more quickly than what they are cheap and on their own. -- achieving on their own. in terms of their production capability, it is unclear what russia is even asking from north korea, if it is just stockpiles or if it is to produce more ammunition. if they do want more ammunition, there are other things russia can do to help provide the kind of resources needed in order for that military industry to pick up that task. sami: you made a point which i

want to take to our guest in moscow. do you agree with that? she sees a sign that russia would be willing to work with north korea on some of the sanction technologies. do you agree with that? that would undermine the western sanctions regime. >> i agree that there is a new element as far as sanctions policy aimed against north korea. there is a big tendency in moscow. we must terminate completely our participation in the practice of sanctions against north korea because we are fed up with these sanctions in general.

in north korea too. i do not think we will proclaim this policy, but in real terms we will ignore it more and more due to the development of the situation. please take into consideration that we are now at the very specific juncture, we are at real war against the collective left in moscow they call it. all opportunities for us to have more opportunities in this war we are waging, this is a very significant and useful additional facility. so north korea is also among those new elements to be as a plus for the present day opportunities. sami: those are interesting

points. jenny, what is the bottom line here? is this intensification of relations between russia and north korea, does it represent anything of a game changer for the war in ukraine? >> i do not believe it does. what north korea can offer can maybe help prolong russia's war fighting ability, but this is not game changing technology we are talking about. or in game changing numbers. sami: does it at all make north korea at least something of the more central player in the ukrainian conflict from the north korean perspective? does it up there diplomatic standing? >> no. it is a marginal change. it is partly the ukrainian situation.

[indiscernible] not going to seriously influence the eventual outcome of the conflict. sami: in moscow, is this at all impacting global and regional balance of power? is russia building a stronger anti-western alliance through visits like this? >> perhaps mainly it will change in certain aspects the balance of power in the far east and in general. but as far as the ukrainian story is concerned, i doubt that there will be some immediate help or assistance from the part

of north korea. today, our president said we do not need it because we have already 300,000 russians that said they are willing to join the military company. so we do not need any additional help from the part of north korea. also, there is a possibility of north korea -- we have enough. sami: allow me to present you with the counter argument, which is that russia has been seeking arms from other countries, even countries like iran. why would we believe russia has

factories working 24 hours a day to produce everything it needs for the war? >> if there will be some additional opportunity, ok. but we are speaking about major and not major factor. it will be a not major factor if north korea will send something. it will not change the situation. all additional help is useful, but it is not the main element we are dealing with the present day negotiation with the north korean leader. there is something else more significant, dealing with our balance of power vis-a-vis the united states of america. sami: jenny, he mentioned an interesting point about the changing of the balance of power in the far east. when stronger ties between russia and north korea mean young young is not so reliant on china?

this is assuming north korea get something of a goodie bag out of moscow. >> it is not a -- i do not think it is that black and white. north korea has its own relations with china. china was the first ambassador invited back to north korea. it is definitely cultivating that relationship as well. we do not see a real trilateral -- we do not see the kind of trilateral alliance forming in the way that it is with the u.s., south korea and japan as of yet. in the last major military parade in north korea, you did have russian representatives and chinese representatives there. so you do see a greater alignment of china, north korea and russia against the west and

especially against the u.s.-led security bloc in the region. it is not necessarily a new development in the region, but one that a lot of people have not been paying enough attention to. and now this is the reality of where we are. sami: when you talked about the changing of the balance of power in the far east, what are you referring to? are we talking about north korea's power or the balance of power between russia and the u.s. in the far east? >> actually, we are thinking about the far east in several angles. first of all, the far east is very near to the territory of

the united states of america. so we are thinking about making additional serious danger for the territory of the united states of america, just for the americans feeling -- to feel what they are feeling when they are speaking about rockets on the territory of european countries. sami: does that mean -- do you think russia will really help north korea develop its rockets, its missile capabilities? is that even a russia's interests to have a nuclear power on its border? >> yes, i think so. this is an absolutely new element. after these talks, we are thinking about this opportunity. this is absolutely a new element.

they will constitute some additional danger to the territory of the united states of america. at this moment when we have so bad military and political relation, we will have this additional danger to our clear-cut enemy. it will be in our interests. sami: how would china viewed this, the deepening relationship between north korea and russia? that russia might enhance north korea's missile and rocket capability? how would china viewed that? >> president xi jinping will call president putin and say do

not do it. you will have serious problems with your oil sale and your revenues. and president putin will say yes, i will not do it. china will not tolerate active support for development of the missile and nuclear potential in north korea. i believe all these talks about this are basically a kind of bluff to put additional pressure on the united states. once that happens, china will stop it. china does not want proliferation of nuclear technology. china does not trust north korea.

china knows north korea cannot be controlled. and china would be far more happy with the north korea stable, but quiet. the level of economic control of china over north korea and russia is enough to stop anything like that shouldn't happen, but they do not believe it will happen anyway. sami: it has been a fascinating discussion. i am afraid time is out. i will have to thank our guests. thank you all for joining us. and thank you too for joining the show. you can see the program by visiting our website at al jazeera.com. head over to our facebook page for additional discussion. you can also join the conversation on x.

from the entire team here, goodbye.

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