know i am a machine. >> origin of the species on al jazeera. laura: after a long, tough journey, thousand of asylum-seekers are crossing everyday into the u.s. despite the obstacles and barriers, their number is growing. immigration divides american politics and will be a central issue in next year's presidential election. so why is it so emotive, and what is the solution? this is "inside story." ♪ hello there and welcome to the program.

i am laura kyle. it is being described as a crisis. thousands of people turning up daily at the southern frontier of the united states. some have faced life-threatening dangers to make it there, only to meet a wall of razor wire at the texan border. but for the u.s. political establishment, it is a crisis of a different sort. a year before the presidential election, democrats are being divided for and against the white house, and republicans are demanding harsher measures. so many people are arriving that cities far from the border are struggling to cope with their legal duty to provide shelter. we will talk about all of this with our guests in just a moment, but first, let's hear from heidi zhou-castro, who is on the banks of the rio grande that marks the u.s.-mexico border. heidi: here on the u.s. border, you can look right into mexico. that is the land that is across the river and where we have seen a steady stream of people, migrants and asylum-seekers, endeavoring to cross.

the water here gets about waist deep, and there is an unpredictable current. in fact, two children died here while trying to cross in recent weeks, and, as you can imagine, it is quite the harrowing experience for parents who are hoisting their toddlers and babies over their shoulders to try to keep them out of the water. once they do cross, those hurdles are just the first of many. this is barbed wire fence, put up by the state of texas, meant to be a deterrent, to keep people in the water rather than allow them to scramble up this steep part of the bank of on to u.s. soil. and as a result, we have seen hundreds of people stranded here, halfway in the water and surrounded by barbed wire, without protection from the sun and without drinking water. many had young children with them who looked quite listless, and, in fact, a man collapsed in front of us from heat exhaustion. that was after u.s. border patrol agents took pity, and

given the great number of people stranded here cut an opening through the razor wire, which allowed people to pass through. and then those people were taken into u.s. custody and processed. some will be expelled, while others, who are deemed to have a legitimate chance at asylum, are paroled into the u.s., where eventually they will try to convince an immigration judge to let them stay for good. their chances to prevail at court, though, are slim, and that is a reason why many simply ignore the court dates and go on to live as undocumented immigrants in the u.s. and that is what republicans call amnesty. they say that the biden administration should not be allowing people to even make it this far into u.s. shores. the governor of texas is among the greatest critics of president biden, and it is he, the governor, who ordered that this barbed wire and other barriers be put here to make it as difficult as possible for people to reach american soil. but yet they still come, with thousands more still making their way north from mexico, following them.

many have told me that all this to them is worth the risk of putting themselves and their own children, through these dangers in order to flee persecution, violence, and poverty in their home countries. they say this is further chance to come to the united states. for "inside story," i'm a heidi zhou-castro, al jazeera. laura: well, let's look a little closer at the most common journey taken by people to reach the southern u.s. those coming from south america have to cross the darien gap. that is a dangerous stretch of jungle between colombia and panama. moving through central america, migrants then enter mexico. some seek asylum there, whilst others move further north towards the u.s. at the border between the u.s. and mexico, migrants and refugees then try to enter their final and desired destination -- the united states. ♪ let's bring in our guests now. in washington, d.c., we have niambi carter, associate professor at the school of public policy and the university of maryland.

niambi is a specialist on race and ethnic politics. in new york, rebekah wolf, policy counsel for the immigration justice campaign for the american immigration council. and also in washington, d.c. is john feehery, partner at efb advocacy. he is a republican, a political communications strategist, and economist for "the hill." a very warm welcome to all of you. rebekah, let's start with you, because the numbers are staggering. nearly 9000 people crossing every day. why are we seeing so many people right now? rebekah: well, i think it is important to look at it in the context of the last few years. part of the reason that there are such high numbers coming in is that, under both the biden administration and the trump administration, our border was essentially closed, and you had people, under what was called the title 42 program, being expelled. and what that does is, in addition to conditions that are forcing people to migrate, you also had a number of people that were stuck at our border and in mexico, fleeing but not allowed to come into the united states.

and so, in addition, as i said, to the conditions in these countries that people are fleeing, our policies have exacerbated the situation. laura: john, do you agree with that? do you agree that now the border is more open than it was before, under biden and trump? john: yeah, it's a complete mess. it has been a mess for a while. i've been calling for a complete overhaul of our immigration system. we need more immigration judges. we need a better control of the border. we need a more orderly process. the system is completely broken down, and i think both -- everybody deserves some blame for it, but you know we do have a need for immigrants in this country. we do need to fill jobs in this country, but it needs to be an orderly process that needs to be done in a way that we are controlling it and not just being controlled by them. -- by events. right now, it is a complete mess. laura: you say it is a complete mess. we have that president joe biden trying to bring some order to the process, with his new policies.

john, do you not see those as moves in the right direction? john: well, if you are talking about what is going on with the venezuelans, getting tps protections, you know, i think what that actually does is it gets more people in venezuela and other countries to say, "hey, we got a shot at coming here," and it becomes a magnet, so even more people come to the border, trying to get in. we need a comprehensive strategy that deals with diplomacy with mexico and central america, but we, first of all, we need to control the border, which we don't control, and, you know, we should have. we were trying to build a wall there, and all that stopped under the biden administration. and, you know, when people think they can get in, they try harder, and when they think they're going to succeed and be able to kind of work here without any kind of, you know, legal repercussions, they take their chances, and that is why they are coming. laura: ok. so the tps that john is referring to, temporary protected status, that biden has recently extended to a number of venezuelans, who are already in the united states.

niambi, i was actually thinking more in terms of what biden was trying to do at the border, in terms of turning people away who didn't -- who hadn't already sought for asylum in another country, and forbidding them reentry within five years. some look at that as being as tough as trump was and are very critical that he's gone that far. prof. carter: well, thank you for having me. certainly, biden has not been soft on the issue of immigration, contrary to what many people would suggest. i mean, he has ramped up deportations. i mean, part of what we are seeing at the border at least is that the u.s. is sort of changing people's status, but they are denying them status as well, so it is not that the border is out of control and people are just coming. and tps certainly does not offer anyone, other than people who are already here in the u.s., an opportunity to be here. it does not extend to people who are just getting here. you can ask haitians. you can ask folks from sierra

leone. that's not how tps works. but i think joe biden has kind of seen or is being portrayed as being soft on the issue of immigration, but i mean, even the a.c.t. system that they engaged to process applications was roundly criticized, because a lot of people don't have access to cell phones and other kinds of things. so i think the biden administration is probably being seen as more liberal on this issue than it is, and i would have to disagree with my colleague in that i don't think a wall is going to stop people who are desperate. and i think that is something we have to deal with, this root cause of why people are coming, and it is not about policies that many people may or may not even be aware of. it is about the home country conditions and other things that are pushing people here, despite the dangers, despite the lack of possibility, even, that they will be granted some sort of asylum status. laura: rebekah, we are seeing that play out right now, aren't we? because despite this tough

policy from biden, it acted as a the tarrant -- a deterrent for about a month after title 42 expired, and people weren't quite sure how it was going to work, but now, as we started by saying in this program, the numbers are rising so much, despite these new policies being put in place. there's very little that's actually going to deter people from trying to get into the united states. rebekah: well, i think that's right, and i think there's also some misconceptions of who is coming and how, demonstrated by my colleague as well. these are not people that are just coming in and being given status. that is not how it works. people are -- temporary protected status is something that has been around for decades and has been used temporarily, as is in the name, to provide people with the ability to stay and work when conditions in their home countries, which are also temporary, make it so that returning them is simply against u.s. policy and also against the

united states' moral and ethical obligation. i think that it's also really important to contextualize this talking point that there are simply -- our border is simply being overrun by people. that is not what is happening. as you mentioned, the biden administration has implemented a number of policies, attempting to create more pathways that are orderly, so that people can come and not necessarily stay permanently but be able to work, provide for themselves, and contribute to the economy while their immigration court cases, which they have a right to pursue, go through the courts. i would agree that we certainly need things like more immigration judges and more legal and orderly pathways to enter the united states, but that does not need to be paired

with a total disregard for our obligations under u.s. and international law, to allow people to seek asylum in the united states. laura: john, what is your response to that? john: well, i think that the conditions in venezuela and nicaragua are real problematic, and we have to be sympathetic to the problems that venezuelans and nicaraguans and others who have terrible governments deal with. i think it is hard to say that, with all that is going on, the reason we're having this program is because people perceive that the border is being overrun, and we don't have control over the border, and people are coming here in ways that are inhumane, really. i think that we need better policies. i don't think that the biden administration can claim that this has been success. i think it has been a terrible

disaster. and i think one of the things that has happened, why is has become a bigger issue, is that the governor of texas, and at times, the governor of florida, has actually taken some of these immigrants, or illegal immigrants, and taken them to northern cities. and you have people like eric adams and brandon johnson saying, listen, we can't afford this, because all these immigrants are coming in. and so i think that, you know, people outside of texas are starting to understand how big of a problem this is, and they are starting to get really irritated with the increase in crime and just general lawlessness that happens with a completely broken border. laura: i'm just going to jump in there, john, because i think you had a good point of until we started blaming immigrants for increasing crime. but before that, i think you had a good point that i like to put to niambi, which is that the cities of chicago, of new york, these places that are far from the border are actually having to confront a large number of migrants coming into the city, seeking shelter, seeking ways to

survive with employment, and they are struggling. and these leaders of these cities are turning to joe biden and saying, look, what are you going to do about it? prof. carter: absolutely. and i will say this, i think it is important that we don't conflate the asylum process with other kinds of immigration processes. seeking asylum is not illegal. it is a protected right that people have. yes, the receiving nation has a right to decide who they admit, but it is not an illegal process. and i think it is interesting that there's all this handwringing over migrants from the south, yet when biden says i'm going to allow in 100,000 ukrainians, there wasn't even so much as a whimper about whether we will be able to afford this, how we will be able to shelter, how we will be able to employ these people. so i think it is really interesting that there are some people that we view as having "rightful claims to asylum," and

others as not. now certainly, the mayors of chicago and new york understand gratian. -- immigration. they may not be as close to the border, but they are traditional receiving contacts for immigrants, so it is not as if they don't understand. i do think this is more about proving a political point than trying to spread the pain, if you will, of how we address our immigration system, and i think most americans agree that the immigration system is undesirable, but i will say most people, i think, overestimate what is happening at the border, because of our focus, again, on the southern border in particular. and when we talk about the ukrainians that we allowed in, when we talk about the afghans we allowed in, there is much less consternation, and i think we really need to investigate why that is, why some people's claims are viewed as legitimate, and other people's claims are viewed as less than so and perhaps even dangerous. laura: well, rebekah, let's pick up on that. why do you think so many people do see migrants arriving at the

border as a threat? is it because words like "invasion" are thrown around? rebekah: absolutely. the rhetoric that has been used by the right-wing and republicans has only increased. it's only gotten more dramatic. even though the situation, while there are increased numbers of people coming across the border, the way people are coming across the border is the same as it has been for a number of years now. i think it is also really important, to your question before, about how this affects the large cities to the north, and also how this affects cities to the south, like el paso and even eagle pass, the solution to that is to allow people to work. and that is what those mayors have been asking for. so it seems a bit disingenuous that, on the one hand, we want to use this talking point of people in these cities are overwhelming the services, and then with the other hand say,

but we are also against the methods in which we give these people permission to work temporarily while they are here, which is what temporary protected status, among other things, does. laura: john, what you think about that, because there are two things that the u.s. needs, it is more people and it's more workers. is this not a natural fit? john: yeah, i mean, listen, i'm a big believer in legal immigration, and i do think we need the workers. and i've said that on many different occasions, but they need to be here legally, and there needs to be an orderly process. now, when you start granting legal working permits to people who came here illegally, it becomes very problematic, because it creates even more of an incentive for people to just go bypass the system and then go get jobs illegally. and so this is what we've kind of created. we've created a system that incentivizes other people to

come and go outside the system, never show up for the court hearings, which so many of them never do, and just find jobs and get paid cash. and the other thing, this is what the left would say, something like bernie sanders has said in the past, is that when you have an influx of illegal workers, it depresses wages. and that is an issue that labor unions are concerned about, that certainly the concern of left wing politicians and right-wing politicians who have been making the case that if you are going to lower wages, you know, that's bad for ordinary workers who do play by the rules. and, you know, i would say that one of the things that the big business gets attacked for is encouraging influx of illegal labor, so they can pay people less. and that is one of the things that bernie sanders in the past

has attacked big business in our chamber of congress for, and now you see recently members on the right attacking big business for the same reason. laura: right. now, because the system is pretty broken, isn't it, because we do have biden trying to put more legal pathways in place with processing centers in other countries, in south america, and with this new app that you mentioned earlier. but the trouble is, it simply not enough. the waiting times are too long. it's too difficult to use. it's too difficult to access. it's not working. what does need to happen? prof. carter: well, look, this is not going to happen in a single administration. this system has been broken for a very long time, and i think when we think about who is there to process, i mean, these really important vacancies on immigration courts, so not only does that court need to be expanded, but the vacancies that are there need to be filled. i think we need to think about how people access counsel, because legal counsel is really important.

your viewers, people who are engaged in the asylum process are not the same as undocumented migrants. they are part of a legal process that is knowledged by international law. they have a right to engage that process, and so part of what people have been saying is that if we are concerned about immigration, like my colleague just said earlier, give people an opportunity to work while they're here, because when we put people in these kinds of programs where they can work while they are awaiting their hearings, they usually show up, because people have an investment, they want to be here. so this idea that people are going to just kind of run into the wild and not show back up is not really being borne out by the evidence. people want to be here, because if they get caught, the likelihood of them ever being able to come here through some legal means is forestalled. so that is not actually accurate. so i think that needs to happen. i think we also need to have a real conversation about what americans want, because people say we want people to play by %-pt

-- to come here legally, but what does that actually mean? because people here seeking asylum are engaging in a legal process. yes, it is broken, but that is the process that this government has had for multiple administrations. and so when people engage that process, they're still going to be some who say well, they didn't do it the right way. well, what is "the right way"? people don't actually know, because they don't know what's involved. it is very arduous to become a legal resident of the united states. laura: rebekah, i would quite like to know what are considered the legitimate and successful ways you can apply for asylum in the u.s. rebekah: sure. and niambi is totally correct. entering the southern border to seek asylum is legal. simply declaring them "illegal immigrants" does not make it so, and people who access, whether they access it through a port of entry, which is also a legal entry, so many of these people that we are declaring illegal immigrants and crossing illegally are in fact doing neither.

they are legally here. you are allowed to be in the united states while you pursue an asylum claim. and you are allowed, under not just international law but under u.s. law, to access our asylum system, and many people are going so at our ports of entry, but those are in fact, are indeed broken. and so when people are desperate and need to get out of violent situations, they are crossing irregularly, but that does not mean that their presence in the united states is inherently illegal. i also think that, you know, people can come in through a number of parole programs that have been created by the biden administration, but those are limited in -- both by nationality but also by whether or not you have the ability to, for example, get a passport, a non-expired passport from

countries that, in some cases, like venezuela or cuba, simply don't have a system to provide those, so there are limitations to that. but i do want to reiterate, again, seeking asylum is not illegal, and being in the united states as you seek asylum is also not illegal. laura: john, we touched on this, saying that the system has been in place for decades, throughout multiple administrations. why has the u.s. congress failed to approve proper immigration reform for decades, and how urgently is it needed to do this? john: well, they've tried. i've been involved in many efforts to try to pass comprehensive immigration reform, and typically what happens is that the hard right does not really want to, what they call, grant amnesty, which is give people legal status when they came here outside of the asylum system, which many, many do.

and they don't want to create that, give that kind of amnesty. and, you know, that is what crashed in 2005. i think there was an effort in 2013 or something but that failed as well. the system is so broken right now, though, that i do think that republicans and democrats have to figure out a way, for the good of the country, good of the economy, good for the region, good for our national security, to find a way to get more immigration judges, get complete control over the border, make sure people who are coming here have the kind of security and understanding that they can try and go through the legal asylum process and not go around the system, because i think a lot of people feel like they're never going to get a chance to do that. i think if you talk about the app, the app is very unpopular, because people cannot access it and can't figure out how to -- if it will help them. so there's just a lot of things that have to happen to make the system better, and i don't think the political will is there to

do it this year. i'm not sure if it's going to happen next year, either. laura: sure. no. niambi, we have a government shutdown looming next week, and republicans are making border security a key issue. what do you think is going to happen? are they going to hold up this stopgap funding measure, trying to push through something that they know full well is not going to be passed in the senate, and therefore causes shutdown of the government? prof. carter: i wish i could say that the government shutdown would not happen, particularly given the disastrous economic conditions that it can create in the d.c. region, but i don't trust this set of republicans, quite frankly, to do that. i think what john will say here that i agree with is that there are places, there are some interesting overlaps between democrats and republicans that could be exploited and explored to create, i think, this comprehensive immigration reform, but it is a very winning political issue, quite frankly,

depending on who your base is. and i think, for that reason, we won't see it, because most americans do agree that they would prefer more border security. most americans do agree that there needs to be these pathways toward legal citizenship. most americans do agree that children who were brought here without documentation should have a way to achieve regular citizenship. but they are still going to be infighting, as long as their political points that can be scored with people's lives, unfortunately. and i don't see a way out of this anytime soon. and so on that, i think john and i are in agreement. laura: rebekah, are you also in agreement? do you think we will ever see the political will to explore areas that do overlap on this issue? rebekah: well, i would hope so, and i think that the conditions that need to change, as niambi alluded to, are these conditions in which talking points and the

use of immigrants as political pawns outweighs any commitment to real comprehensive reform. i also believe that there's a lot of misrepresentation and misunderstanding of what is happening at our border, and so when we continue to simply use sound bites and talking points that don't really get into the issue of what -- how our border actually operates in these systems, we are simply going to continue to have a deadlock on being able to come up with creative solutions to these issues. laura: ok, it has been a very interesting discussion today. thank you very much to all of you for joining us, niambi carter, rebekah wolf, and john feehery. and thank you, too, for watching. you can see the program again any time by visiting our website. that is aljazeera.com. for further discussion, go to our facebook page. that is facebook.com/ajinsidestory. you can also join the

conversation on x. our handle is @ajinsidestory. for me, laura kyle, and the whole team here, bye for now. ♪

[phone ringing] [dongseop speaks in korean] - he loves this attention. he eats it up. [laughing] when the phone rings, my stomach starts hurting. here we are again, dumb dumb against the world. my brain right now is actually scanning every single little thing that can go wrong because of this show and it's everything i ever wanted, recognition for this decade of hard work. yes, here is korea, but give me this little 10 by 10 room. come on. they always call me the, the [speaks korean], the american misses. to really find out who i am,