emily: other court case for donald trump accusing him of fraud. he says he is the victim of a witch hunt. with the mounting -- but the mounting legal problems do not seem to be denting his popularity. will this help or hinder his presidential campaign? this is inside story. ♪ emily: welcome to the program.

donald trump is back in court, the latest cased is a new york involving scores of legal charges related to his business dealings. the appearance of a former u.s. president in court has long and -- long been considered as unthinkable but not with donald trump. each month brings new legal twists and turns as he campaigns for next year's presidential election and a return to the white house. trumps legal troubles are at the core of his campaigning as he pro praise himself as an outsider being persecuted by the political establishment. >> this is a pure witch hunt for purposes of interfering with the elections of the united states of america. it is totally illegal this judge should not be allowed to be a judge. emily: why is trump in court this time? gabriel elizondo explains in new york. >> this is a somewhat complicated case but it boils

down to allegations of fraud related to trumps business dealings and with the trump organization. the new york attorney general's office brought this case last year. and at the core it alleges that trump and the trump organization intentionally inflated the value of trumps real estate assets. everything from golf courses to hotels, to apartments, to the tune of $3.5 billion in order to gain more favorable loan terms. this is very much a crime, and that is why these allegations were brought forth by the attorney general. last week the judge in this case already made a ruling that trump was liable for falsifying or lying about his wealth on financial documents. so why is this trial going forward?

because there are six other allegations related to this case and the potential of fraudulent as this records and business dealings -- fraudulent business records and business dealings. there is no jury, it is just a judge that will make a ruling. it is excited to last several weeks and could go into december. so far it has had no effect on his popularity within the republican party, he is still leading the polls and republican primary for the presidency. for inside story i am gabriel elizondo. emily: the new york trial is the latest in the series that he faces. he has criminally indicted four times. let's take a recap of some of them. in august he turned himself in at a jail in georgia where the

first ever mugshot of a former u.s. president was taken. he was named in a 41 count indictment that accused him of trying to overturn his 2020 election defeat in the state. he is also criminally charged in a separate federal investigation led by a special counsel into alleged efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. also heading an investigation into the use of classified documents, trump faces 40 criminal charges for mishandling secret papers and storing them at his florida home after he left the white house. finally there is the hush money case in new york, undeclared payments made to an adult film star ahead of the 2016 election. ♪ let's bring in our guests. in washington dc is daniel freeman, fellow at the center for congressional and presidential studies at the american university in washington dc.

he has written a book "the house was my home: my life on capitol hill and other tales". in philadelphia is claire finkelstein a faculty director at the center for ethics and the rule of law at university of pennsylvania. and also in washington dc is carrie sheffield, conservative commentator and senior policy analyst at the independent women's forum. a warm welcome to you all thank you for joining us on this edition of inside story. there are certainly plenty of moving parts to this particular story. before we get into the politics i want to dig deeper into the specifics of this case. daniel i will start with you. this is not a criminal case, this is a civil case, so the former president not facing jail time. can you describe what the attorney general is hoping to achieve from this trial? daniel: there are two sets of

remedies that the attorney general is seeking. they first is a fairly substantial find of $250 million. but more importantly they are seeking to ban donald trump and his relatives from the ability to do business in new york state. which is a huge blow to the trump organization and to the financials involved. it does not affect his ability to run for president or vote for himself. it is mostly affecting his business. there are the other criminal cases working in the background which have a tremendous effect on a lot of things in the election. and i will get to that later. the most important thing in this case is the ability to do business in new york state.

emily: claire, what is at stake for trump, what could this case cost him? we are hearing figures of around $250 million, what impact will that have on him? claire: it is hard to tell because as he himself said, with each indictment my popularity goes up. i don't think that will hold for a general election. but at the moment that is how this has been playing to his base. $250 million to a man like donald trump, it is hard to tell what his actual wealth is like, but it may not feel like a huge haircut to him. i think it may cost him politically because of the fact that come out -- facts that come out and because of the coordination that has gone on between the manhattan das office

in the new york attorney general. that has been usable -- useful to both cases. whether or not the verdict itself, which already came down on summary judgment, now this trial is about the amount of damages. it is not clear whether or not the amount of damages is actually going to impact him. emily: do you think it is likely that trump will take the stand, and if he does what impact will that have, and what is the strategy of his legal team? carrie: i think it was no accident he showed up in the courtroom, i don't believe he needed to be there, he went there because he saw it helps them politically the more the spotlight is shown on these trials. and for the reason being, there is a perception even among

democrats, that these lawsuits are politically motivated. the more there is a sense of a political target, the answer would be no, if we were to ask whether this trial be happening if this man was running for president or not running for president? and the fact that letitia james explicitly when she was running for her current role said on her victory party night, i will go after donald trump. in my view that is a miscarriage of justice, justice is supposed to be blind. it was interesting from the defendant standpoint on the legal strategy, they pointed out that the defendant assert that the record is devoid of evidence of default breach, late payment or harm. that is to say that even though i agree it is wrong to inflate assets he should not be claiming

square footage sizes that are inaccurate, there was no evidence of breach or late payment. whether or not he received more favorable terms for his loans, that gets into the question of the penalty which might be deserved. but in terms of banning someone from commerce in a state, i don't think that punishment fits the crime. it fits into a narrative of a political witch. i disagree with the previous guest, it does not seem to be hurting him. bbc news shows that donald trump is edging out president biden. emily: i want to break that down because there is a lot to taken. -- to take in. daniel, do you think this is a political witch hunt? daniel: i would not characterize it that way. whether or not donald trump will

take the stand, the chances of his lawyer asking him to do that r0 -- are se zero. you don't want a man who is known for owing off on the stand. -- four going off on the stand. not included in this case is the fact that the overvalued -- he overvalued has properties but he undervalued the same properties for income taxes. that is not part of this case but it is in the background. if we are talking about the rest of the criminal cases, i was always told when i was in law school that you win or lose a case when you pick the jury. jury selection in these cases will be difficult. it will be hard to find anyone in the world who has not been living under a rock who does not

know anything about these cases. as far as the ramifications, there are two and they apply to all of the other criminal cases. if donald trump is convicted in any of these cases, the result will be a myriad of appeals which will go on for a long time, as donald trump is a serial litigator. and i think the effect on his base, will be to support him even better. i think if he is acquitted, then he will say i told you so, and his support will go up dramatically. either way, any of these criminal cases, it will be down to the benefit of his election

possibilities. unless he is sentenced to serve time in jail. if that happens, that will be for a while, maybe after the election. emily: claire i want to get your reaction to what was written in the new york times, " the sheer volume of the legal developments obscures the individual cases and plays into trump's argument that his opponents are trying to take him down by whatever means they can". your reaction? claire: i want to respond first to that quote, that this is a witch hunt and that donald trump would not be being pursued by letitia james in this civil case if you are not the former president and if you are not running for office. i think that is entirely incorrect. that is very important to bear

in mind the scope of the financial fraud that is alleged. more than alleged because summary judgment has been granted. when you are declaring the value of your property to be 10 times or more for one purpose, securing a loan, for purposes of taxes, or inflating the amount of square footage, that cries out for enforcement. that is what the attorney general is therefore, to make sure that -- is there for, to make sure the state is not being defrauded. this is an action that would have cried out for enforcement in any event. let's remember that cy vance wanted to bring this as a criminal case.

had investigated these financial frauds and almost brought a criminal case on the basis of these fact's. that could still happen. i want to agree with dan, there is no way his attorneys will let him take the stand, because the possibility of the potential for a criminal case, and because there are four other criminal cases out there. if donald trump commits perjury in this case, there could be a negative impact on those cases. with regard to the quote, i think that donald trump will ultimately pay an enormous price for this kind of conduct. i still believe that the truth will out. and we saw that in the case of

the january 6 testimony, of the committee, which during those hearings that took place, there was an enormous shift in public opinion that when the evidence was really put before the public in a systematic case-by-case manner, public opinion did shift. i agree there is a lot of legal facts to keep straight, it's hard for legal commentators to keep track. but certain facts stand out and one of the things that letitia james said yesterday is the thing that comes across to people. she said no matter how rich or powerful you are, there are not two sets for laws for people in this country, the rule of law must apply equally to everyone

and it is my responsibility to make sure it does. i think that will come across to people. emily: i had read, according to his campaign, that one of his highest days of fundraising came after the release of his mugshot. my question is, how is trump able to continue to galvanize such support amongst the american people? carrie: when i mentioned that trump would not be facing all of this myriad range of charges if you are not a politician, that is a majority of the american people, both democrats and republicans. a quinnipiac poll found that 62% of americans believe that the charges against donald trump on the doj case were politically motivated. you see similar polling for the

other indictments. there are numerous polling, the data speaks for itself. the majority of the american people believe what is happening is politically motivated and that is part of why his followers are loyal, because they believe these attacks are politically motivated. there is the fact that these cases are not occurring in isolation there is a history of unfair attacks against donald trump. for example the doj admitted there was a forgery, and altering of any male, for an application to spy on the trump campaign. but that is a serious miscarriage of justice, for the fbi to alter and email, that is a shocking display of miscarriage of justice. you have another example, dozens

of supposedly expert in the intelligence committee signing onto a letter saying the hunter biden laptop was signature russian disinformation, and then years later for the new york times to verify the veracity and other data saying it could be determinative -- emily: i'm going to interrupt you there, for an international audience, we can look at these individual cases and we will be here for days. my question to you is, how or why is he so popular amongst the american public, went from an outsiders perspective he seems so different. he is someone who is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, why is he so popular? carrie: it is important for me to talk about specifics. his popularity, it speaks to the

idea, you hear it over and over and focus groups, he is perceived as a fighter, he fights for me. there is a phrase, the blue-collar billionaire, he knows how to speak to the average man. i got to know the gentleman who was the lead organizer for workers for trump, blue-collar workers for trump. he ran in -- he said it was interesting because he had been in the labor movement for a long time. it was the first time he witnessed a republican effectively able to speak directly to the workers themselves to the point where many workers would come in to work with their construction hardhat and a trump sticker even while the union leadership were endorsing the opponent. he said it was a defiance, the workers were endorsing trump

because they like that he is a fighter. they feel he is fighting with his arms tied behind his back against a system that is rigged. and he wants to un-rig the system. emily: claire and daniel had strong reactions, claire if you want to respond. claire: i don't think he is so popular. he is popular among a certain base. he lost the 2020 election and not by a small margin. he lost by basically a landslide. it was not close in any state. and he lost in some of his traditional base areas. and he lost to a septuagenarian. i don't know what to think about current polling for a potential general election, it is far too

early to put any stock in what may emerge there. but i think he is popular in a certain narrow base. and studies have shown that one of the things that appeals about donald trump to those who do find him attractive is that those individuals are deeply in the grip of fox news propaganda and an enormous amount of disinformation. i think education is really where this will lie, and the coming presidential campaign will provide a fair amount of education. but the fact that he is very much the republican front runner for the primaries does not

really tell us anything about his overall popularity. emily: one thing we can agree on is the fact he is dominating headlines. daniel do you think that is a hindrance on the republican campaign? or is it a benefit for the democrats? daniel: i would like to go back to the characterization of what donald trump is accused of as his personal foibles. they are not personal foibles, these are criminal activities, many of which all of us had seen on tape, including the phone call to the secretary of state of georgia, the moving of the documents. these are federal crimes -- state and federal crimes, and if they are proven beyond a reasonable doubt, i think there is a serious problem for donald trump in his campaign. i do believe there will be some reaction, that they will say

they were out to get him, and they got him. if you prove to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt the fact that most of us have been able to see ourselves, including the january 6 incidents, i think diminishing the severity of those charges as personal foibles is irresponsible and not appropriate. emily: thank you for that comment. claire, this case and other cases that have not begun, what should we be looking out for and will any of these trials mean that donald trump can't run in the election? claire: there are two state and to federal criminal indictments. in the main thing to look out for is what is the timing of those trials. in georgia, that is a very

complex trial, as your audience probably knows, with 19 codefendants, that will take a while to get through. it looks as though there is an attempt to fast-track that trial. and we may actually see donald trump in a courtroom in that case sometime in the spring. the federal indictment for january 6, we might see that one moving quickly. it looks as though that is new york criminal trial that has to do with stormy daniels and the hush-money payments, that one is going to take a little bit longer. and there is the mar-a-lago and documents case. it is a lot, it is a full-time job. donald trump has a full-time job just to keep up with these trials as a defendant. to see him running for office is

going to be complex. none of these charges would preclude him if proven -- if you are proven guilty, from actually becoming president, and the way that a charge of insurrection would. but it would be a heavy lift. and we could have the amazing and unprecedented spectacle of someone who had been elected president potentially serving in prison for a very long time, for his entire presidency and some, or more likely, these trials would still be going on. what would happen then is a very important question. emily: i will give the final question to carrie, is it true that being accused of wrongdoing is politically beneficial? carrie: for trump it is, because

there is a perception, it is what the american people believe. on the documents case 62% of people said this is politically motivated. and to the point that i was saying about personal foibles, i was making the distinction of donald trump the man and the worldview of conservative and progressive policy. tens of millions of people will vote for donald trump because they do not like bidenomics, that president biden has caused a $6,000 median pay cut per household, when you have dozens of supposedly experts lying about something, it begs the question of who is defining this information. i reject my co-panelist claim that trump followers are in the

throes of disinformation. emily: this is a complicated topic, we in pre-sheet -- we appreciate your insights. this is something we will touch on in the weeks and months to come ahead of the 2024 election. thanks to all of our guests, daniel freeman, claire finkelstein and carrie sheffield . you can watch any time by visiting our website aljazeera.com. you can also join the conversation on, formerly known as twitter our handle is @ajinsidestory. goodbye for now. ♪

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