sami: hundreds of civilians killed and injured in israeli attacks on gaza, the government declares a total seizure, fighting what it calls human animals. hundreds of israelis were killed by palestinian fighters. why has politics failed so badly and what is next for both sides? this is inside story. ♪ sami: welcome to the show, i am

sami zeidan. because those people living in terror under the most intense bombing campaign israel has ever launched against one of the world's most densely populated areas. more bodies are being recovered in southern israel after hamas fighters attacked an all-night party. israeli settlements and a kibbutz were targeted. israel has announced a complete blockade of gaza meaning it's two point 3 million people face a humanitarian catastrophe, perhaps worse than before. years of israeli occupation and seizure have left more than half the population in poverty, lacking essential goods and dependent on aid. israel's defense minister describe the seizure strategy referring to the palestinians they are fighting as animals. >> i have ordered a complete

siege on the gaza strip, no electricity, no food, no water, complete closure, we act accordingly. sami: the impact on gazans among -- is death, injury and deprivation. our reporter is in gaza city, she sent us insight into what life is like there now. today marks the first day of the israeli gaza war which started saturday morning after the infiltration of the palestinian militant groups into the israeli sediments. the israeli army has launched many raids on the gaza strip, on residential houses, towers and mosques. it has resulted in the death of many people my hundreds of people, thousands of casualties and casualties of displaced people into the hospitals.

as there has been no safe base in gaza anymore. there has been a cut in power, fuel, water and food. this leaves us with a complete seizure. with no anticipations of what is going to happen in the couple of days or hours as we have been witnessing, many ambulances reaching the hospital with tens of people from the south of gaza. sami: gaza has been under israeli blockade for almost 17 years, forcing it people into a humanitarian and economic crisis. it is one of the most densely populated areas in the world. a narrow strip of land between israel and egypt, twice the size of washington dc. with triple the population. about two thirds of causes 2.3 million residents are refugees. they live in eight camps and are

dependent on you when assistance. palestinians in the enclave live in cramped conditions, and tight quarters, making them vulnerable to is really strikes. ♪ let's bring our guests in, we have joining us francesca albanese, united nations special reporter on the occupied palestinian territories. diana buttu, lawyer and former spokeswoman for the palestine liberation organisation. and in tel aviv, gideon levy, columnist at the israeli newspaper haaretz and author of the punishment of gaza. if i could start with diana, how common, how rare is it in modern political discourse to hear a government minister openly vowing to starve a population of food, water, electricity and fuel?

diana: this is not at all new for israel. the seige has been in place for 17 years. and much longer than that, if you look at the system of closure. the problem is that israelis have gotten used to this process of dehumanizing palestinians. we heard as much yesterday when he called palestinians human animals. the fact he gets to do so with complete impunity, it is this that has led to the events of this past week, that somehow they believe that they can do whatever they want to palestinians in the history only began on saturday. discounting 56 years of military occupation, 56 years of what they saw over the course of the past 48 hours. sami: something has changed,

this was a territory, gaza has been under seige for 56 years. under occupation for 56 years, it has been under seige for 16 years. but now what in really -- israeli officials are talking about is total seige, stopping the flow of very basic vitals of life. diana: yes, and what they are now -- i want to put it in context of people understand, this is not new. but they are intensifying. the point is that what they want to do is commit mass atrocities and sadly they are being given the green light by the u.s. and other countries. sami: let me move to francesca and ask this question. the obvious one that comes to mind is, how does this sit with international law? francesca: it doesn't.

it is completely outside of what is permitted under international law. this is in fact, it sound like a broken record, but this is the trajectory that i have been following my observations. let me add something on the blockade of the blockade. what it is leading to his starvation, which is a crime against humanity under international law. and it will be criminally shut -- it should be criminally prosecuted. sami: let me jump in and present to you perhaps the israeli perspective, of those who support this far right government, does witnessing crimes that took place in killing israeli civilians at all sit with the right who -- the

right to self-defense, they have a legal right to defend themselves by imposing this complete seige, starving the population. can that be justified under international law? francesca: no because self determination -- that defense of the state is not the basis for justifying actions that prosecute crimes or other serious violations of international law. especially in the context of hostilities. this is the reality, there are limits, and the cycle of every attack, the principles of distinction, precaution and proportionality must be taken. not just during the operation. for each attack, civilians cannot be targeted, civilian infrastructure cannot be targeted, which is not what is happening and it is not what has

happened in the previous five wars that israel has launched against gaza since 2008. sami: let me bring gideon in, i know that you do not subscribe to the far right wing of israeli politics. but from your understanding of the israeli body of politic that is in power, what do you think is the strategic thinking, the goal of saying we are going to stop all food, water, electricity and fuel go into gaza? gideon: let me correct you, when it comes to gaza, to apartheid, the occupied territories, there are differences between the far right wing and the so-called central left. before we get into your question, let's not label it on

the right-wing government. because i guess, central left government would react right now in the position, in this context we are in now, a central left government would react exactly the same, including this total seige. this total seige is not what worries me, because this cannot last for long. sami: why can't it last? gideon: because at a certain stage, people will starve in gaza, and israel will not stand scenes of starvation. the world would he say, how about opening a corridor. the problem is 17 years of a non-total seige in which we all normalized it. the total seige will not be

normalized. but the ongoing seige is totally normalized by israel and the international community, by everyone, and everyone is so astonished and shocked when the palestinians are taking very brutal measures to put an end to it. sami: i want to go back to diana, when we put this statement by the israeli minister of defense about cutting off all food, fuel, water to gaza, alongside that, taking action that will change of the middle east. telling palestinians to get out of gaza. do you start to have concern about whether there is thinking -- israeli thinking about demographic change and gaza on the table? diana: absolutely, people are calling for a second mass

exposure and of palestinians, a second ethnic cleansing. it is not that far of a stretch when you hear the statements that have been ongoing, not just over the course of the past few days, but that have been ongoing for decades. by this prime minister and by other israeli officials in which they say it is time to get rid of palestinians, that they have to finish the job of 1948. when you hear that, you juxtapose it with the statements by the prime minister, and juxtapose it by netanyahu saying people should leave even though there is no place for them to go. what we are gearing up to see is mass atrocities. the mass expulsion of palestinians. sami: let's put in the israeli narrative from the israeli

military that they are making targeted strikes on hamas quarters, military installations in gaza. this is not massive targeting of the civilian part of -- civilian population. diana: that is impossible. in israeli speak, hamas equals gaza. any strike on gaza to them is a justification for targeting hamas. and we know that is not the case. about 50% of the population of the gaza strip is under the age of 18. they have lived their entire lives only knowing the seige, they haven't been secure, they have lived through five wars. and yet they have no future. angela world still continues to behave -- and yet the world still continues to behave as it is business as usual. the blockade has become normalized, the suffering of palestinians has become normalized, the dehumanization has reached peak levels.

such that we are not allowed to respond back to what israel has done to us for 56 years. sami: let me wring gideon back in, can the israeli government change the middle east? netanyahu was avowing a -- vowing a ground offensive. gideon: i am sure you are not asking this seriously, because it is ridiculous. israel is using the same threats in the same methods that it used so many times and failed to reach anything so many times. i am ready to put aside the legal question. but where does it lead to? you asked before about the strategic goal. the only strategic goal that israelis can have in mind is getting rid of the palestinians in one way or the other.

but this is not a realistic goal. sami: do you think that is what some policy in israel are contemplating right now? at least in terms of gaza, that they can shift the palestinian population away from the border? gideon: why would we guess, including the minister, they said it clearly. what they say about total bombarding of gaza, what will remain in gaza after it is bombarded? sami: perhaps francesca, for those who might not survive this, listening to what the who said a matter of hours ago about how all of the medicine, the supplies they have pre-positioned have already run out. what kind of humanitarian situation are we headed to and how quickly will it emerge if people do not have the basics like medicine, food, fuel or

even water? francesca: the risks are immense. we are not talking of a normal situation, that all of a sudden is cut off from the rest of the world. gaza was already severely defeated and compromised before this happened. and i share their dismay at the normalization of this situation and the poor action. the blockading itself constitutes already a war crime. a form of collective punishment. and what is going to come to happen next without essential supplies, food, medicines and water or electricity, people are going to die. and the wounded will not be --

hospitals will not be able to cure the wounded. and there will be diseases spreading, already people from gaza are fearing cholera, which will happen with the destruction of city infrastructure. sami: diana, if we look closer at the politics of this, how have we reached this point in terms of complete failure of the political process and the political systems? diana: through a number of ways. first is there was a lot of emphasis on negotiations, somehow a two state solution, rather than focusing on the problem, which is military occupation and the denial of freedom and the ethnic lensing of palestine. beyond that, it is that there has never been in place a system of accountability regarding israel's actions, they have

never been held to account. my friend is one example. she was assassinated on may 11 last year, and today nobody has been held to account for that. there are thousands of people who are out there, where israel has never been held to account. this just becomes a system in which israelis can do whatever it is they want to do. sami: let me jump in, a lot of international organizations have documented killings of what they considered to be extrajudicial killings of journalists and civil society workers, but other palestinians or member of the population that they say, there is a lack of accountability. israeli narrative is, what has paralyzed the political process is what they call terrorism by palestinian groups, they keep practicing targeting of

civilians as the likes of which we have just seen. diana: this is trying to flip things on its head. this is not a two way occupation, it is a one-way occupation. israel is doing the occupying and palestinians are resisting and trying to game -- to gain freedom. if they do not lack the response, they need to get to the root of it. that is the problem, everybody keeps flipping it on its head, and demanding that world -- that there will be a peaceful occupation. rather than the world blaming the victims, being the palestinians, they should look at themselves and asking themselves, how is it we have left this system in place for such a long period of time? how is it in 2023, we are talking about the denial of freedom? how is it the system is still in place and is apartheid? how is it this continues to happen? that is where the problem lies.

we need to have adults who are going to come forward and hold israel accountable, without that they will continue to do whatever they want. and then be shocked when there is a response. sami: gideon, i know you said earlier that you don't see it as a lot of difference right now in the thinking between the far right and the central left. but bear with me, when you look back at the statements of people in the israeli government like the minister of finance, his call in march for palestinian villagers -- villages to be raze d, is there something of a history in the thinking of that branch of israeli politics about population change, erasing villages and towns as a solution? as a policy option? gideon: israel is doing it,

slowly, gradually. but in the last months and even in former governments, people were uprooted from their lands, from their homes, their properties. and the silent wish was that -- badly enough they might decide one day to leave. this did not happen. no doubt the rhetoric of those fascists, where they beat europeans -- be europeans, that rhetoric is far more extreme they on the most -- extreme than the central left. maybe their plans are more crazy. but by the end of the day, the real danger is what the moderate

wants. they establish the occupation, established the settlement project and establishing now the apartheid system. and they do it softly or relatively softly. and therefore they are more destructive because nobody gets against them. they do so-called normal things, the silent majority is supposing -- supporting israelis, while the extremists raise the alarm. we should concentrate on the mainstream of israel. this is our problem. sami: francesca, if israeli statesmen who are making statements like total seige, total bombing, if that is carried out, might we see a situation in which pressure will mount on egypt to open up their

border and we witness a mass exodus of palestinians from gaza into egypt? francesca: this is what i it is one of the possible scenarios. this is what israel -- there have been statements by israeli officials, and a response by egypt, challenging it. but what seems to me is that the measures taken, including the bombing, is an intention to starve and kill the people who are inside the gaza strip. of course palestinians fear the fact of a second nakba, which wouldn't be really the second. in 1967 palestinians were

displaced, this has been an ongoing forced displacement. but of course they fear that under threat there will be -- they will be displaced and never allowed to return even to the area they have been confined to in gaza. sami: gideon, we talked about what is the strategic thinking. can we talk about what is the broader goal? is the calculus or the goal here to try and return to a situation where you can happen occupation and -- an extended occupation with little cost to israel's security, to its reputation? to get to that time -- kind of scenario? gideon: that is exact we israel would like. they would like to let peace and security without any connection to what it has been doing in

gaza and in the west bank. let us occupy, let us create an apartheid system, let us kill civilians, let us uproot them from their lands. and don't bother us, don't resist. and behave yourselves. and there is even a promise, if you will behave yourself, we will offer you economic peace. namely we will bribe you with money, and everyone will be happy. the palestinians say, for not the first time but in the most brutal and barbaric way, on saturday, this is not enough and this cannot last forever. sami: diana, we are talking about changing calculus, has it changed for internal palestinian politics? diana: most definitely.

it has been teaching for a while because we have increasingly seen that the palestinian authority has lost all support, both in the west bank and the gaza strip. we are seeing that more and more people recognize that there needs to be resistance to military occupation. in the palestinian authority has done nothing to protect palestinians or even offer an alternative. yes, the calculation has completely changed. whether the mindset of palestinians, so much so, -- he has been made irrelevant now. sami: francesca, what are the political options going forward in this kind of very bleak scenario? francesca: one comment, again, i know this is something that might sound strong, but while

there is a right to resist an oppressive regime, and the palestinians have been under an oppressive regime for decades now. it is also -- there is an imperative to remind -- the mass killing is not justified. i would like to take saturday as an example. sami: for sure. francesca: in terms of what are the political options, i will tell you what i would recommend. there is nothing that is being put on the table. other than one cited support -- one cited support and violence and armed responses. first of all it is fundamental to negotiate a truce with

cessation of hostilities, the release of hostages. sami: one could argue we have gone through this so many times. francesca: this is just the first step. the second is reinforcing humanitarian aid and then forming a u.n. task force to ensure -- to monitor troops and enter a protective presence of the palestinians. again this has always been put aside. this is in the short term. in the longer term, there needs to be a plan to end the occupation. it needs to start to be discussed now. and not envisaging the reality of palestinians, once the peace process is achieved. this is like kicking a can in the air. sami: there is plenty more that

we could discuss. we will have to leave it there. let's think our guests, francesca albanese, diana buttu, and gideon levy. thank you for watching, you can visit the show again any time by heading to our website aljazeera.com. for further discussion go to our facebook page, facebook.com/ajinsidestory. you can also join the conversation x, our handle is @ajinsidestory.

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