two big developing stories. gone to parts unknown, casey anthony, the florida woman acquitted of murder free from custody just after midnight today. we'll hear about the scene outside of the jail and talk to someone who was inside when anthony left. plus, where might she be right now? the other developing story, countdown to a deal. new reports that the president and congressional leaders may meet today to try to hammer out a debt ceiling agreement. will that happen soon or go down the wire? good morning, i'm richard lui. alex witt is off today. welcome to msnbc sunday. topping our hour we'll start with casey anthony. after nearly three years behind bars she's a free woman this morning. the 25-year-old was released from jail just after midnight

eastern time 12 days after she was acquitted of murder in the death of her daughter. outside of the jail hundreds gathered, carrying signs of protest or support of anthony. inside one nbc photo news journalist was in the procession room when casey was released. he described what happened. >> she was just total vision through the door and that's when i think i saw that, you know, that smile or relief, if you will, because she saw freedom and she saw the exit door and she saw the srp team and is like me exit, good-bye. >> let's go live to orlando and lily there are people behind you. what was the scene like? >> reporter: richard, as we all expected angry protesters. a few, i would say less than five who were supporting casey. one offering up a marriage proposal. most of the people were angry.

they started screaming killer, baby killer to casey anthony. we're seeing these images now. there were 100 or maybe just over 100 people around the jailhouse. it was raining throughout the afternoon so clouds did disperse quickly once she left. what we're hearing an impromptu religious service that's taking place, protesters invoking prayers. last night the way this all took place was casey anthony walked out as you said. one of our own nbc photojournalists was inside, one of the three journalists who were allowed inside the jailhouse and they waited for just over an hour. once word was out that she was ready to leave they took their places, tony had a microphone set up ready for casey anthony in case she wanted to address them and say something to the media, but she did not. it's something between five to sitting second or just under ten seconds what it took from the moment she released or they

released her from jail and she walked out that door. she was wearing a bright pink polo shirt, perhaps indicating her joy or excitement. all the journalists expressed she did not show any emotion at all. she did not smile. they described a slight grin, perhaps even a little bit of a smirk. at that time she walks out, she heard people screaming, of course. she came into this dark colored suv. it was reported the suv went directly to the orlando executive airport. we're hearing this morning that the choppers, the affiliate helicopters that followed her along with some cars that fold her said that this suv went into the office building where cheney mason, one of the defense attorneys has his office. so it wasn't -- it was a covered parking lot inside the building. that, you know, leads us to think that perhaps the car didn't go straight to this executive airport but it might have bean decoy, she might have

gone somewhere else. there's no way of knowing right now where casey anthony is. >> we don't know where she is. she's not one jail any more. there's also, as you watched, some of those who gathered to support her. i want to play a little bit of what was said by some of them first. >> i'm here for the baby. i'm here to protest her getting out. she should spend the rest of her life in jail. >> she had a trial. found not guilty. she did her time for the crimes she committed and that's the way it is and people need to accept that. >> lily, both supporters and those protesting, but it was a surprise for some saying okay she did what she needed to do. yet they were still gathering along with those protesters. >> that's right. and, richard, it was surprising online. i checked out some facebook pages. there are some pages supporting her or at least supporting the justice system. some people saying justice was

done. there was not enough evidence and they've come out and spoken. early this morning i was checking out some of the blogs and there's some serious death threats going on which i'm sure, whichever will be her jurisdiction she will need protection. we've spoken to experts in security matters and they said she will need more than one body guard wherever she goes. of course if she leaves the country which is obviously a possibility because she's not on probation, she's free to go wherever she pleases, i guess security would require less of a team there. >> now, she also received some money when she was released. what was it and how much was it? >> that's right, richard. she walked out yesterday with just under $540. this came from private donations. mostly after the verdict but during her time in jail she was receiving money where she was using inside the jailhouse for buying candy, to buy beauty products. yesterday it was reported, and

the jailhouse public office said she walked out with just under $540. now she's declared herself indigent when she entered that plea for the four guilty charges for lying to law enforcement. she entered a request, a motion for the court to declare her indigent. she just has this $540 to survive for the next few days. there's word she will get offers for her story, her book, her movie. one producer is willing to pay her $1 million tosin die indicate her interview around the world. i don't know how long she will hang on to the $540. >> lily, we still hear some noise around you. i'm not sure if your cameraman can pan around. can you tell us what's happening still in front of the jail? >> reporter: right now, richard, we cannot to see from here because there's, of course,

about a dozen satellite trucks around this parking lot still from last night and a lot of the local stations still broadcasting as we speak but we're seeing i would say between 50 to 60 people holding signs, sort of a religious service taking place as well. there's protesters, there's -- i'm seeing a car right now. i wish we could to see it right now of big posters. but there are still protesters, rather, around the area. we can expect for that to go on throughout the day. people are still angry and saying caylee did not get justice. >> still action there at the jail and, again, understand that casey anthony was released just after midnight today. thank you. we'll talk to you in a little bit. it appears no family reunion for casey anthony. not right now. the website tmz says casey has no plans to to see her parents. the attorney for george and cindy said casey's lawyers made it clear casey will not have any

contact with her parents. cindy tried visiting her daughter in jail last week but casey refused to to see her. just ahead we'll talk to our photojournalist. he was the only videographer in the processing room when casey anthony was released. that's coming up in minutes. now we take you to washington. we continue to keep our eye there on the political soap opera playing out there. the white house has left the door open for new meetings today on a sunday as lawmakers weigh competing plans to deal with the debt ceiling. on friday the president gave congress 24 hours on the way forward to figure out anything about the debt ceiling. what your hearing? >> reporter: crickets. and a few robins. yesterday some press releases put out by the spokesman for the

various players. speaker boehner, all saying the lines of communication are open. pointing out that the president has had conversations over the last couple of days as has his staff and vice president biden. what's happening right now things are settling in. this fall back plan that's emerged from the senate that would allow the president raise the debt limit and avoid the country plunging into default sometime in august appears to be the only viable option at this point but that's very much a problem for house conservatives sent here in november. william the backing of the tea party. they think it's less. ironically, you hear this phrase about the grand bargain. up to four or five trillion dollars in debt reduction often years they are talking about. they look at the mcconnell plan taking shape, a fellow republican plan taking shape. one calling it stupid. they don't like it. ironically some people taking a

second look at the grand bargain. all of it very much up in the air. no meetings scheduled this weekend pap lot of things have to play out on the house and senate floor. conservatives will get a vote on a balanced budget amendment. we'll keep a close eye on what's going on. >> back to plan a, maybe. >> maybe. >> all right. thanks a lot. of course later on this hour we'll go in depth into the major plans that can go into effect going forward. there's the grand plan that he was alluding to. we'll be looking at the cut cap and balance plan, digging deep into that. in other news china furious with president obama for meeting with the dalai lama. he met with the president for 45 minutes. he's been in washington for 11 days for a buddhist ritual. china said the meeting damaged chinese-american relations.

new signs that texas governor rick perry could enter the 2012 presidential race. his family is encouraging him to run according to iowa governor. he always tells the associated press he expects perry to visit iowa in a month. mitt romney will visit a nascar event in new hampshire. and the dnc has issued a new attack ad. saying massachusetts ranked 47th out of the 50 states on job creation when romney was governor. a california man is under arrest this morning for suspicion of making death threats against senator barbara boxer. the 47-year-old suspect was taken into custody near his home north of san francisco and will be arraigned on tuesday. in scorching heat making much of the midwest.

it's on just like a frying pan. forecasters say temperatures are ranging 15 degrees above-normal highs for this time the year, even hitting triple digits in some states. how much longer will that last? weather channel's alex wallace has the latest. >> good morning. indeed heat is no doubt the story not just for today but we'll be dealing with this for the next several days. check it out. we got all these areas shaded in brown, those are heat advisories. excessive heat warnings from minneapolis into portions of oklahoma out there four. we'll show you what we're looking at right now. 70s and 80s in the middle of the country. it's feeling warmer than that as well. here's the feel like temperatures. minneapolis feels like it's 85 already this morning and we'll be moving upward here from there. here are the actual highs important the day. massive ridge of high pressure, 100 degrees for you in rapid city. you'll be at the same temperature as dallas, texas for your sun afternoon.

the heat continues into monday. tuesday as well. again not just a quick hitting heat wave this thing is lasting through the middle part of the week. oklahoma city come wednesday 104 degrees. the heat doesn't just stay in the middle of the country. by the end and middle of the week it shifts its way towards the east coast. d.c. for your wednesday expecting high temperatures to get up around 95 degrees. a lot of heat for a lot of areas over a prolonged period getting very dangerous. folks need to take it easy. >> need that jet stream to go further south. alex, thank you. for the latest tally on temperatures across the country and in your neck of the woods logon to weather.com. leaving jail in the middle of the night did not prevent an angry audience for casey anthony. but the big question now where is she headed? plus l.a. county residents seem pretty good at the bob and weave strategy.

carmageddon has been mellow so far. will drivers return to the road? we spend a lot of time on the feed

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how did you guys think of that? it just came to us. what? bundling and saving made easy. now, that's progressive. call or click today. we're continuing to follow today's big story, casey anthony's release from a florida prison just hours ago. she got the world wondering exactly right now where she went. and what her new life will look like. keep it right here on msnbc. at the half hour we'll talk to the nbc photojournalist. he was the only videographer there in the processing room when casey was released. across the nation this morning a colorado woman is facing sexual abuse charges for

groping a female security screener in arizona. this incident happened at phoenix international airport on thursday. the 61-year-old woman is accused of grabbing the left breast of the unidentified tsa agent at an airport checkpoint. officials saying the suspect refused to go through passenger screening and became argumentative. she was released on friday. one person is dead and another seriously hurt after their speed boat flipped and crashed in boston harbor. the speed boat was racing when it hit a wave sending it into an air. crashed into the water breaking apart. both men were thrown from the boat. in washington, d.c., a new museum opened this weekend to honor african-americans who served in the civil war. visitors from around the country came to visit the museum to learn about some of the stories left out of history books.

200,000 african-americans fought in the civil war. 150,000 of them have been slaves before the war began. 23 of them won the congressional medal of honor. back to the debt crisis now, new momentum for an ambitious plan that would slash the debt by trillions of dollars. it's known as the grand bargain. there are republicans and democrats who want to to see that succeed. felicia is the lead offer of the post's two chamber's blogs. back to where we started the grand bargain. take us through this. >> richard, there are five days remaining until the deadline set by the white house for these negotiators to come to an agreement. what's striking is this grand bargain keeps being on again, off again. you saw by the end of last week the house speaker john boehner

had shot down the idea in a saturday evening announcement by saying that house republicans just wouldn't go along with the idea to cut $4 trillion from the deficit over the next ten years. but it's revving up again in part due to plan b. that's the complex procedure that's been introduced by the senate minority leader, mitch mcconnell. it would allow both chambers to raise the debt ceiling through the end of next year and republicans can do that without having to vote in favor of it. this plan that started out as sort of a last ditch effort to avoid default seems to be a way for gems to look at this as well to attach spending cuts to it and that seems to be a good thing for both sides in this agreement. >> now, in the original plan a, it also included revenue enhancements, as has been said. this latest iteration have that in it? >> it remains to be seen.

they are sketching out the details. that's the biggest stumbling block for house republicans. they are opposed to including any revenue. the way it would work, basically allow the debt ceiling to be raised in three stages and each of those stages it would be raised for several months and several00 tread billion dollars would be enjacketed which would have to pass both chambers. where the twist is coming in here, harry reid said he would like to start a committee of bipartisan lawmakers, 12 people and as we've seen many times before, committees do not have such a great track record here in washington, the gang of six has come up short many times. and fiscal commission has not been successful. this time they are saying it will be different and this bipartisan committee can enact $1.5 trillion in deficit savings. that's only a small part of this 4 trillion that negotiators are hoping to achieve.

it's a start. >> felicia, what about timing? what about timing? we don't have a lot of time in front of us. we have two weeks. is the time limit on this new grand bargain in line what needs done? >> part of the reason this knee option is so, you know, looks so good to a lot of the negotiators it would give them more time to identify those areas that they can enact spending use. $1.5 trillion is the first stage of cuts and these numbers would have to go back and huddle until the end of this year in order to find something more sweeping. so, it would buy them a little bit more time and avoid default which is something that everyone wants right now but one of the key questions is the process this would go through. many house republicans were furious about this mcconnell plan because it would give congress's authority to raise the debt ceiling to the president. a lot of them say we weren't elected to do that.

>> plan c. >> this is an abdication of congress's role in the role. some have called at it pontius pilat plan. the group has not had any meeting this weekend, despite president obama saying they have to report back to him within 24 hours after their last meeting. it remains to be seem. but there seems to be some momentum picking up. >> we have a pretty good football playbook. >> yes. >> thank you so much. >> thank you. >> casey anthony walks out of prison with a little character in her pocket and an uncertain future. will she return to her family or start anew? they are calling it carmageddon. los angeles residents say it feels more like post -- doesn't look so bad. post-apocalyptic on the 405. how the locals are beating the

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despite fears of a massive back up on miles of black top near what's known as 405 los angeles residents seem to have been spared the worst in terms of traffic. you still have that thing standing behind you. getting anywhere? >> reporter: they are, actually. it seems they are making significant progress here behind me and you probably can hear the work going on behind me. they are here for 53 hours. it's up to be back up and running tomorrow. crews have made significant progress. we're told lapd said there's no major reports of any problems. lax say they've had no major delays. one indication that the roads are very clear through the

weekend we can tell you actually last night there was a three hour high-speed chase and fact that the roads were clear probably gave that driver three hours of clear road travel before police ended up catching up with him. he made it to half a dozen freeways in the yarea. >> los angeles that's an indicator. in terms of keeping people off the road, i understand celebrities got involved? >> the lapd asked some celebrities with a lot of twitter followers to post tweets and warning them about the closure. it showed how much authorities are bringing in social networking which is actually smart and may be a template for something they using future to get the word out about important events. >> 5:30 local time in los angeles. looks good. another 24 hours of what we've been calling carmageddon but

turning out to be okay. we'll talk to you later. the ring of fire heating up again and we're talking lava and ash shooting nearly 10,000 feet into the air. more incredible pictures in minutes. and, casey anthony walks out of the orange county jail. that's right. through a chorus of screaming protesters. details on how the carefully orchestrated release went down next. [ female announcer ] o is for olive, who lacked self-control. she took mommy's temptations... ♪ ...now she's polishing coal. ♪ new temptations, it's the first jell-o that's just for adults. [ male announcer ] the davis twins... ...are alike in nearly every way... ...right down to brushing their teeth. so how did only one get gingivitis? well, one in two people do. so i told karen about new crest pro-health clinical gum protection toothpaste. it helps eliminate plaque at the gumline, helping prevent gingivitis.

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welcome back to msnbc sunday. i'm richard lui in for alex witt. morton release of casey anthony in just a moment. first some other stories making headlines. secretary of state hillary clinton is in greece today to show support for the financially troubled economy. this is new enjoyed of clinton at an airport in athens. the trip will highlight washington's support of greece at the imf. frontier airlines cancelling

more flights through monday because of hail damage in denver earlier this week. the hail storm on wednesday knocked almost a third of frontier's airbus fleet out of service. the airline say it's cancelling a total of 96 flights today sunday and monday. frontier says it's working to put passengers on other planes and airlines. it's even leasing other airlines' planes to deal with this problem. a volcano in indonesia shot lava and ash more than 9800 feet into the air during another eruption this morning. people who live near the volcano have been on alert since they were warned of this spike in seismic activity. the volcano started erupting on friday. 4,500 people have relocated to evacuation centers. a big development in florida this morning. casey anthony released from jail.

and in the car she had a few protesters and supporters cheered and jeered as she walked out of that jail. kristen dahlgren was there. how did the entire release go down? >> reporter: good morning, richard. it was just after midnight when casey anthony walked out after almost three years here in the orange county jail. the jail took extraordinary step of allowing a pool of three journalists inside as casey was being released to capture those photographs of her. she walks with her attorney jose baez, pretty much looked straight ahead, showed little emotion. she did say thank you to one of the officer that was there and walked out. when she went out the door you

heard those screams of the protesters erupting, some yelling killer or baby killer. she still looked straight ahead. she quickly got into a waiting suv and then they drove away, news choppers tracking them. at some point they lost that suv. so this morning we still don't know exactly where casey anthony is. we to know she left the jail with only $537.68 that was in her commissary account. 100 more than she had earlier in the week. some of that money sent to her by supporters sent to her in jail. so there were some in the crowd that were here to support casey anthony but overwhelmingly a lot of people just outraged she was getting out. she's been called by some the most hated woman in america. so even though we don't know exactly where her next stop is, it's pretty unlikely that she will be able to live a low key life and stay out of the public eye. there's a lot of talk, of course, richard, about what she

does next. she's been declared by the court indigent in the past. and so a lot of talk about the possibility that she will do a movie, a book deal, get paid for an interview. she's been offered a million dollars for the first interview by an independent television producer. so today the world waiting to get their first sighting of casey anthony as a free woman outside of jail and wherever she is starting her new life. >> kristen dahlgren, thank you with a live report there in orlando. and talking about pictures and that first view of casey anthony. joining me now, nbc photojournalist who was one of only three journalists allowed inside the processing room when casey anthony was released. so you were there. you had one of the first glimpses of casey anthony when she did leave there. tony, can you tell me what did she look like? did she look calm? what did you to see? >> well, when she first came out it seemed like she was looking

where the exit door might be, and that she came out, we could not to see her at first glance because jose was in front of her. so i was hoping and praying that maybe she move to either side of jose. once she moved to the left side offo say i was able to get a few shots and she was looking forward towards the exit door and her eyes, to me, seemed a little teary eyed and then she walked by an srp sergeant and she said, thank you to him and continued on a very fast pace towards the door. when she reached the door she started hearing the awful sounds of the crowd that were yelling all kind of nasty stuff to her and i'm sure she was prepped for hat kind of a situation by jose. >> now, how were you prepared for this? what were you told in advance? >> you know, the chief here at the orange county correction facility in orlando took the

opportunity to sit down with a couple of the media personnel who were representing the media, and organized what i thought was probably one of the most brilliant things that had been done in a long time at least for us, the media. they said if they had not done this there was no way we could get a shot of her. there were so many possibilities they could have gotten her out of this cell that we would not to see her. as it was our shot was 15 seconds. there was a lot of concern about scenario. they gave us three scenarios. they briefed us if scenario number one didn't go down and what would we do if scenario number two didn't go down. scenario number three is we won't get anything. she was going to leave this particular jail any time after-month which i saw and i shot on the video clock, 11 after when she first walked out of the door at midnight. but they knew she was going to

go. it was just a matter of what scenario they would use to get her out. >> we're watching the video you shot here. what's noteworthy, the security around here throughout, how was that discussed in preparation before the shoot as well as after? what were some of the plans that you became aware of? >> well, we were told that it was going to be heavy security. now, this facility was never under any threat. but she was under a lot of threat. and this particular team that we saw out there is the elite for this particular situation here at the correction center. so they were prepared for anything that could have arise at the outside. and basically they were walking with her, like security until she got outside. they were discussing they would be armed, they were going to be holding their semiautomatic weapons and the srp team and then we had a discussion about how many of them would be in

front of her because we were fearing that maybe we would get blocked and not be able to get a clear shot. and the chief and his staff was very clear to us that he said nobody was going to get in front, all they were going to do is stand by and wait for her to exit the door and then they were is going to let her get in front of the srp team and follow her out and secure her to the car. but everything was done very professionally inside the corrections facility here and i got to give a lot of props to the chief who was in charge of the whole situation. >> tony, the team, what is srt. >> special response team. they don't use s.w.a.t. any more. it's srt. more politically correct. >> the srt team once they reached the outside of the jail did they leave her, disembark in terms of that protection? >> right. this particular team, as soon as

they cleared her and got her in the car and she was safely out of the grounds of this particular corrections facility then another local police team escorted her out to the highway. the srt team was specifically, had intel outside in the crowd, outside where the media was and inside and they had their scenarios going and their job of specifically to get her out of the building, into that car safely, making sure nothing was thrown over by a crowd or anybody said anything that would harm her and then once that was done they were released. >> tony, as we look at some of the pictures you took here, so much focus has been on the emotion, and the reaction of casey anthony throughout this case. what were you able to determine just in that brief amount of time. i know it was difficult because you saw her for 15 seconds. >> you know, because i was the full cameraman i was trying to not only capture the moment on my video camera but at the same

time try to witness my own eyes what she might be going through and how she appeared. when she first came out of the door we were not able to to see that first reaction but as soon as she cleared mr. baez's back and went to the side i was able to to see a little smile of relief that actually i'm going to get out of here and then i saw her eyes tear up a little bit, if you to see the video and slowed down she's teary eyed. she goes by the sergeant and says thank you. then she bee lines it. if we didn't have that opportunity we wouldn't have that ability to to see what she was wearing or what her hair looked like or whatever. there was no possibility we could get those shots had they not allowed us inside. also her right hand she had it in a fist kind of like a fisted right hand as she held it down to her side. there was a lot of tension there. i'm sure she was told to be aware of what would happen outside. >> we wonder where she's

heading, where she will be and thank you so much for your great work. tony, a photojournalist for nbc who was there taking that video, 15 seconds that some of you watched around the country today. it's an important 15 seconds. thank you, sir. >> it was. thank you. breaking news to let you know. i.t. sources confirm the 43-year-old woman arrested in the hacking investigation is rebekah brooks. she's the 10th person arrested in the "news of the world" case and the questions about why and how the phone hacking of certain high-profile individuals has happened. we're just getting that information here to msnbc. we'll have a live report from london. stay with us. we set our goals higher than anyone.

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we got some breaking news for you this morning from london. there's been another arrest.

it's a big name. we go to london for the latest. good morning. what can you tell bus this new arrest? >> reporter: good morning. well reports are just coming in now, all we have heard so far is that sources are saying that rebekah brooks, who, of course s-a former editor of the "news of the world" as well as chief executive of news international which is the uk paper wing of newscorp has been arrested. she stood down from her position last week after intense pressure here. we've been told she has been arrested. this is key because she has been one of the, survivors, so far of this. however, now that she's been arrested, it's probably to do with these allegation, and we're waiting to hear more as the day goes by as to what exactly grounds she was arrested on. but all we're being told is it had to do with the phone hacking

and bribery scandal here. >> this included celebrities. included very important names in government as well. all included in this case. "news of the world". chapman, there's also the fact out there that she was to testify or she was to speak with a parliamentary committee in a couple of days. >> reporter: that's true. she is scheduled along with rupert murdoch and his son james to give evidence and to testify in front of a committee in british parliament here on tuesday so it will be interesting to to see what comes out of this. the other two, of course, prepping as well for this parliament and the deputy prime minister here in the uk gave an interview on british television this morning and said it's their chance to come clean and say what they knew about this hacking scandal as well as what former chief executives knew about it, so i guess that will be key for rebekah brooks in this hearing. >> rebekah brooks now being

arrested. is it making it, in terms of the arrest, farther up the food chain here? higher up the hierarchy. is that what some are saying at this moment? >> reporter: it one appear that way. it's difficult to say how far this will go. and how high up the food chain so to speak it will go. you know, this is a significant arrest in this scandal here and so we'll have to wait for more details as they emerge later today. >> big surprise here? i know you said it was a surprise. how big of a deal is it for the case, do you believe? >> reporter: i think it was a big surprise here. though some people -- some people did seem to think that it was inevitable but i think the height of her power and this arrest is a surprise to many, but as i said, details are just coming through now, and i don't want to speculate too much as to what the grounds were and why she was arrested.

>> thank you so much. breaking news at this hour in there london. the august 2nd deadline looming over capitol hill. still disagreement over just how severe default on u.s. debt would be. we'll break down that argument. back in three minutes right here on msnbc sunday. going to the bank without going to the bank... that's a step forward. with chase quickdeposit on your smartphone, you just snap a picture, hit send and done. chase quickdeposit. take a step forward and chase what matters. ♪ we just keep on keepin' on ♪ ♪ keep on didn't taste so vegetably?

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time is running out in washington on the debate over raising the debt ceiling. two weeks to go here. president obama and leaders in congress need to work out some sort of a deal soon so they have time to get in place to avoid default on august 2nd. there cube meeting today but nothing definite. joining me from washington is steve moore, senior economic writer for the "wall street journal". good morning to you, steve, and thanks for taking time to discuss this issue with us. >> good morning. >> okay. august 2nd. is that a real deadline? >> good question. nobody knows for sure and i'm skeptical of whether this is a real deadline.

we're over the $14.3 trillion cap on debt technically but the white house and treasury and every administration does this, use accounting tricks and borrow from other found get past that deadline. as i look at the evidence and many other experts, august 2nd is kind of an arbitrary deadline. i believe they can go at least another month past august 2nd. but at some point you do hit a cliff. >> you hit that cliff. that decision needs be made by the government, what do we pay, what do we not pay. the debate has been out there, when we stop paying certain things as we technically have according to what you're telling me right now, we're pushing things around, does that affect credit rating of the united states? will it affect the credit rating as we're hearing from moody's and s&p? >> two issues here. one whether there will be a default or a technical default if we went past the august 2nd deadline or whatever deadline that is. in my opinion the probability or

positive an actual default where the treasury department can actually not make the payments that are owed on interest on the debt, i really believe the possibility of that is very close to zero. i think this is a lot of scare talk. the reason for that is think about it in these terms. the federal interest payments each month are about $25 billion. the federal government takes in $200 billion of revenues. many experts and myself including believe that the treasury department and mr. geithner would have the cash flow to make those interest payments and in my opinion that would be the top priority, obviously, to make sure that our full faith and credit of the united states is not put in danger. >> steve, if i can compare this. if i don't pay for my insurance but pay for my car payment, i haven't paid for my insurance so technically i defaulted on a payment. would the government not be doing that despite the fact it may not be on interest payments they are defaulting on other

obligations. >> it depends. for example, there's a big difference between a treasury payment -- per a payment for a treasury bond versus a legal payment. if we go past august 2nd and the federal government is prohibited from borrowing it simple lie can spend the money that comes in every day through tax payments. that's a bit of a problem. we spend $1.40 for every dollar we take in tax revenue. the debt gets paid. social security gets paid. the troops get paid. >> there's trust and confidence. the world markets to see the largest economy in the world trying to make these sorts of decisions not paying x but paying y. isn't that in effect, at the end of the day, benjamin netanyahu that it could affect risk

n-crease cost to capital because they are seeing this happen in the largest economy? >> look, i believe the real danger here in terms of the value of the dollar, the value of our credit rating is not so much whether we go past the august 2nd deadline. if we're gridlocked it will last for a few days. they will pass a debt ceiling. the real issue with respect to what you're talk b-credit rating, the value of the there are, all of those are related to whether or not the president and congress can come together and make a deal that has a credible deficit reduction and spending reduction plan. if not, i think a lot of the people in the united states and global investors around the world will have concluded that the united states is incapable of dealing with the debt crisis and i think that's the real danger here. >> steve, one sentence answer on this. s&p, moody's, credit rating, downgrade on the united states. big deal, not a big deal?

>> those are the people that gave aaa bond ratings to the bond mortgages two days before they failed. i don't want to to see the credit rating downgraded. i don't think people should listen to credit rating agencies either. making the grade may be easier these days. shocking figures on the grade inflation trend at u.s. colleges. that's next on msnbc sunday. we spend a lot of time on the feed

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