singapore, spain, no matter where you are, a lot of those countries, which have been around much longer that the united states, started those sports. that's where baseball came from. >> dhani jones, nice to have you here. you can catch him playing linebacker for the bengals, if they sort out the lockout. i'm dylan ratigan and "hardball with chris matthews" starts right now. performance art. let's play "hardball." good evening. ooich krm i'm chris matthews in san francisco. leading off, cut, cap and balance caper pap hue day in the debate over the economy, first in the next few hours house republicans will vote for something they call cut, cap and balance. this is performance art, of course. the stuff you see on sidewalks on the weekends.

they're miming. pretending to be doing something, you know, like bumping into walls that aren't there. the republican plan has no specifics on what to be cut. he calls for a cut to just below 20% of gdp by 2021, ten years from now, and demands a two-thirds vote in both houses to back a balanced budget amendment to the constitution. it has no chance whatsoever of being a bipartisan deal. second, president obama announced this afternoon that the gang of six, it's come up way plan of spending cuts, changing to medicare and medicaid, and taxes. at the top of of the show we'll talk to a tea party republican who says no to taxes a and don't worry about default spiking interest rates or an american downgrade. plus, playing politically. our new poll shows the public is taking sides in this democrat versus republican fight. also what a day it's been for parliament's investigation into the murdoch scandal. and at one point as rupert murdoch was explaining he knew little of the phone hacking and

didn't try to cover it up a man tried to hit him way plate full of shaving cream. murdoch's wife there in the pink came to his defense and he was unhurt. and texas representative, a man who believes president obama isn't really an american, has come up with an ethically irrational explanation why the august 2nd debt ceiling deadline isn't really a deadline. finally, let me finish with the performance art of the republican house. we start with the debate over the economy now. joe walsh, a republican from illinois. sir, i wonder, go through a couple details of the bill you're voting on this evening. i read through the text today. here's what i learned. the plan doesn't say what exactly has to be cut. but it has a special exemption for more on terrorism spending. cap reduces spending of the fraught government to $19.9% by the year 2021, fen years from now and the house said it would need a two-thirds vote on a constitutional amendment to balance the budget and then go to the states deratify. if the house and senate both did

not get that two-thirds vote, the debt ceiling could not be raised. let me ask you the most fundamental question, most people i think will ask after hearing what i just said. your side led by grover norquist crist sizeded president for not calling for specific budget cuts. why is the bill you're voting on today not mention any specific cut? >> hey, chris, let me just correct you. i'm not an artist. this isn't performance art, and grover norquist, great guy, isn't leading my side. all right? >> oh, he isn't? okay. >> no, he's not, chris. he may think so, but he's not. all right? you know better than that. >> did you sign his petition? did you sign his petition? >> yes, i've signed -- >> why? >> i've signed a number of petitions. >> why his? >> because i do not want to increase taxes and i won't increase taxes. hey, chris, let me answer your first question. >> who wrote the petition? you didn't write it. he did. >> chris, let me answer your first question, let's try there. yes, the house is going to do

something historic tonight. we will for the first time pass a plan out of the house. now, you may not like this, but this is a plan that's going -- >> there's no plan there. it's not a plan ngts a plan that's going to pass out of the house in a key aspect, chris, the key aspect of this plan is the balance budget amendment. forcing members of congress to balance their books every year. yes, they'll be some flexibility with the cuts when this goes over to the senate and there may very well be some negotiation and flexibility on the caps, but, look. i'm a freshman who came here to change the way this town does business. >> right. >> and we're going to do that by structurally, chris, reforming spending. >> okay. you signed grover norquist petition. he says there's should be specificity in the cuts. why is your bill you're talking about today? you're saying it's a plan, have no plan for cuts? where are the cuts? it doesn't have any cuts. i've got the bill right here. it's not in here. >> hey, chris it calls for $11 billion in cuts, but, again, my

friend, $111 billion. i signed a pledge that said i will not races -- >> why don't you answer the question? >> chris, let me answer your question. hey, chris, i also signed a pledge that said i'm not going to vote to raise the debt ceiling unless we pass a balanced budget amendment. >> right. >> that is -- that, chris i know you want to get away from this, that's the key aspect of this plan. and unlike you, i'm pretty optimistic. i think we've got a great chance a great chance to pass a balanced budget amendment, chris, ow both the house and the senate this year, and send it to the states. >> okay. let me just ask you three questions. the bill you're going to vote, you're going to vote for this bill today. >> try one at a tinchts all right. i can't get the first answer. >> yes, i'm going to vote for this bill. >> why doesn't it name the cuts? >> it calls for $111 billion in cuts. >> where? >> again, in the bill chris. >> where are the cuts? >> in the bill. in non-defense discretionary

spends. >> what's that? >> $111 billion. >> you fwlee that is. you want to harp on this. i'm telling you for the first time, where's the president, chris matthews? where's the democrats' plan? >> you know, you're criticizing the president for 3409 not having a plan and don't have one. you have read your document? >> i'll criticize the president for not having a plan. he'sy playing politics. for the first time the house is going to pass a serious blan ton get spending in this town under control and you want to ignore the most important piece of that, which is a balanced budget amendment to the constitution, and i've got to tell you something, the american people are beyond you on this, and they're beyond the president. they want us to do something dramatic. >> okay. your bill doesn't specify cuts. it calls in ten years for reduction in government spending to 19.9% of commit. are you happy with that number that would reduce it to basically $3 trillion from

$3.75? it doesn't change that much. do you really think you're going to get two-thirds vote in the house for a balanced budget amendment? two-thirds vote? >> hey, chris, the fiscal situation now, this president -- >> you said you're going get a two-thirds vote. >> yes. yes. it's so fear, that we have a great chance this year to pass this out of the house. look, 80% of the american people believe in a balanced budget amendment. most states have to live according to one. all households do. this is something americans understand. and i'm telling you, all of these democrats, chris that have not put forth a plan or a budget, they are going to have to sign on as well. >> okay. just to repeat what's obvious to everybody watching. this does not have any cuts in it. it -- >> chris, what's the president's plan? chts ta >> that's not the point. i pointed out the president doesn't have a plan.

your plan doesn't have cuts in it. can you explain that to 3450e? >> your president sends a tingle up your legs -- your president -- >> here we go. >> hasn't been serious in six months. why do you ignore that, chris? why do you ig noor? >> i think it's our president. >> he is our president. >> and your words. let's go on. let's ge on. >> he doesn't send a thrill up my leg, chris, all right, and has not been serious about this debt crisis, and why don't you jump on that? >> let me ask you about the word lying. you've accused our president, said it's my president, accuses him of lying. >> our president. >> do you like the word lying? >> when he speaks a mistruth, chris, and is not truthful, he's lying. when he says on august 3rd that the lights in the kuchbt are going to turn out and he doesn't know if he can guarantee associate social security checks, he know that's not the case, he's lying and has the discretion to make those payments. >> if you have your balanced budget amendment today and go through all mesh ares, not going

to pass the senate and waste a lot of time on this. >> i think they l. two-thirds vote for a balanced budget andment? two-thirds? >> we have an historic time to get this done. don't talk about wasting time. what has his president done for six months. come on, chris. >> august 2nd. fe were have spiking interest rates, a drop, downgrade of our bond rating in this country, and go have a financial crisis, because we haven't done this on time, would you say, it's not important, will you resign? >> august 2nd's not important, chris. solving this debt crisis is important. >> if we have a crisis in august, will you resign? >> hey, chris, will you resign? leave your show? >> i don't hold a public office. i don't -- you know what? bauer yew sayring it doesn't matter. >> if we raise this debt ceiling without real spending reform, chris, that's when the markets are going to react negatively. we have got to change the way

this town does business. i know you don't acknowledge that. but we have to, and we have a great chance to do it. >> one last question. are you concerned that this is going on, is going to go on through august and weemp not going to get this done quickly? are you concerned thereabout? >> chris, my biggest concern is that every single day we're placing trillions of dollars on debt on the backs of your kids and my kids. we have to stop that, chris. come on. >> what's the size of the u.s. economy right now, sir? >> we -- $3.7 trillion this year. >> what is the size of the u.s. economy? >> $3 -- hey, chris, let me ask you a question. >> just asking what's the size of the u.s. economy? >> rye why are you asking a question like that? >> i thought you might know the answer. >> let me ask you this. what's the president's plan? >> the president's plan is to sign a debt ceiling bill before august 2nd which you say is not important wharchts will that debt -- what is his plan? >> that will avoid default, avoid a crisis in the world which everyone recognizes who understands the situation. you challenge that and that's your right. you're a congressman.

therefore i think you should think about your responsibilities. >> chris, how serious a job has he done with government spending? >> sir, this is -- i want to see both sides look at spending. >> chris, are you happy with the job he's done? >> today he supports the gang of six. >> today he supports. >> a debt reduction. you opposed it. do everything you can to stop that. you are blaying -- >> chris did he support his own debt commission? >> did you? >> did he -- no. dp he mention debt -- >> stop absurdities. every time you make a challenge to him i ask you, do you have -- >> chris, this is what you do on your show. this is what you bully -- you bully guests. answer me a question. did the president ignore the debt situation in his state of the union address? why did his -- >> the president and the debt, we've seen this eschew coming and you've seen it and planned for this kind of obstructionism from the beginning. you guys have been -- >> we got it -- >> no.

organizing yourselves to bring this to a crisis and you've succeeded, sir. will you play by the rooms or quit if you're wrong? >> you're so ouch touch. you said grover norquist is my boss i. think she. >> how sillsy that? >> he wrote the petition and you signed it. you did what he told you to do chris, i've signed a number of petitions. >> why? >> why did the senate vote 97-0 nothing, chris, 97-0 against the president's budget? why? >> sir -- >> why? why? >> i'm just asking -- we're not getting anywhere. this is childish. i've asked why -- >> chris, this is why a lot of people don't come on your show, because it tends to get childish. you don't let people answer, my friend. look, the house is going to do something historic tonight. you may not like it, but let's see how this plays out. and i think there's a fighting chance this year to pass a balanced budget amendment out of both houses. by way, do you support that, chris? do you support -- >> sir, you called the president

of the united states a liar, then said -- >> no, i've said he lied. i've said he's lied, chris. >> okay. your pal joe wilson says he's a liar. you say he's lying. i think it's bad behavior. >> we're all in the same game. >> yes. >> before. >> yes. you got to improve your language a little bit, sir. we'll be better off. please, come back on the show. appreciate you coming on. >> you're not objective but i love it, sir. >> thanks for coming on. >> thank you. good fuzz nenews for the pr. a majority is behind him. numbers from the any nbc news "wall street journal" poll. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

not so fast says governor rick perry. he's walking back a bit. >> there's a lot of different ways to be called.

my mother may call me for dinner. you know, my friends may call me for something. there are people calling from all across this sunt into either me directly or to people that they know, and saying, man, we wish you would consider doing this. >> well, look for perry's real answer to run for president in the next two or three week. we'll be right back. work faster so you can get back to playing "angry birds." it lets you access business forms on the go, fire off e-mails with the qwerty keypad, and work securely around the world so you can get back to playing "angry birds." it's the android-powered phone that mixes business with pleasure. so let's get our work done, america, so we can all get back to playing "angry birds." the motorola expert from sprint. trouble hearing on the phone? visit sprintrelay.com.

back to "hardball." new nbc news/"wall street journal" poll, hot numbers on the debt ceiling fight. the numbers look good for the president on whether the congress should raise the debt ceiling. 38% say they should, 31% say they shouldn't. 30% say don't know muff to make a judgment. in april only 16% said congress should raise the debt ceiling. 46% say congress should not. things moving in a definite direction for the president, educating the country on the imimportantens ever getting this thing done by early august. and president obama the grand plan to cut the deficit by $4

trillion over the next decade basically cutting government spending and taxing corporations and the wepty and cutting spending -- boy, these are tough. medicare to 36%. support the proposal cutting the deficit by $2.5 trillion over the next decade. republicans, by the way, by cutting any would not raise taxes corporations and the wepty. who would get the blame if the debt limit is not raised? 35% say president obama would get the blame and the democrats and congress together. 39% say the republicans in congress. one close call. 17% say both the president and his critics. here to break it down. strategist democrat steve mcmahon and republican todd harris. since you're laughing heartedly, it must be at something. beats me what it is. we just have a kerfuffle with the congressman. what do you make of this republican strategy to basically pass a bill today that has no specificity in it, somewhere

down the road spending down to 20% of gdp and then try to get this two-thirds vote for a congressional amendment in the heat of battle? your thoughts about that? >> well, i like the plan that congressman, the house is sgg to pass today. i like the senator coburn's plan. i liked congressman ryan's plan. the point is, republicans time after time are actually introducing plans. and i agree with congressman walsh entirely. the president, there is no piece of paper, no document that exists anywhere that says president obama's plan to fight the debt, to reduce the debt incurred spending. it doesn't exist. he barely even mentioned the debt in his state of the union, for six months he was awol in the discussions and now is -- now he's talking about, oh, it's armageddon. >> see my lips -- >> hold on. >> the bill here, it's got no cuts in 2. all it's talk about vain,

glorious -- >> chris -- chris, the ryan plan, the coburn plan. >> no. the bill they're voting on today has no cuts. >> who cares about the -- >> hold on. a second ago, steve. >> hold on. no, no. >> this is something with nothing on it. there's nothing on this paper. >> this is absurd. >> where is the president's plan? >> can i answer your question, todd? so, this is apparently been away from the news lately. the vice president of the united states had republican members of congress, the leadership at the vice president's mansion at the white house repeatedly over the last several months to try to do a deal that was outlined in the nbc poll that 58% of the public supports that would close the deficit or cut spending by $4 trillion including doing things that the president and democrats don't want to do on medicare and medicaid and it would be a balanced plan that would take something from the wealthiest and corporations and republicans said, no, walked away from the table and noud have a bumper sticker they're going to pass in the house of representatives tonight, chris.

you're right. send it over to the senate. it's not getting two-thirds votes. they know that, and meantime we're going to be another week closer to america defaulting and going off the ledge, the debt, our debt rating being called into question, interest rates rising, and the american people are going to pay the price. it's really just for the gamesmanship and showmanship of the tea party republicans in the house of representatives because john boehner wants a deal. >> watch john boehner. his description. you follow this up, todd. john boehner's description what they're doing today. overstating the reality. it's the cut, cap and balance plan which has no plan in it if you actually read it. let's listen. >> this will week the house will pass a plan that addresses our debt in spending while taking action on the debt ceiling. and while the house once again acts responsibly, the administration still won't present a plan or even say what cuts its willing to make to end washington's spending binge in the economic uncertainty it's

creating. this unfortunate veto threat should make clear that the issue is not congressional inaction but rather the president's unwillingness to cut spending and restrain the future growth of our government. >> you know, i'm reminded of tokyo rose, here played by john boehner, and toe joe, as played by eric cantor. is he reading something cantor wrote for him or what? he is as excited about that todd harris, as p.o.w. is. did you see it? your thoughts. >> yes. >> looks like he a knife in his back. >> i think he -- wants to get something done. i think he wants to get something done that's going to actually help solve the debt problem. i would give your arts today, chris a whole lot more credence and credibility if for the past six months you've been pounding on the president saying where is your plan? where is the leadership out of this white house to guide the country out of the debt mess that we are in?

the fact is, the president outsourced this entire thing to the vice president. the president barely -- there was no plan. they supposedly -- supposedly behind closed doors said okay and, yeah, there are things we'll put on the table. no. that's not a plan. >> how did they get to $4 trillion? >> there's nothing that can be scored. all the president does is give speeches. >> nobody wants to cut spending, todd. you know it. i'm looking at this, the plan you're voting on tonight. it's very important we talk about what's lapping today. you're passing a bill you know. nothing in there about medicare or any of ryan plan stuff. all this is is a cheap thing you're going to cut discretionary spending and not what the actual spending is. this is bogus. it's an empty piece of paper and you're bragging about this thing? this big cut cap and balance has nothing in it, and i was amazed. i had a hunch it wouldn't be there. got copy of it. actually did something nobody dmog your house, in the

republican side, reading it. there are no cuts here. where are the cuts? it doesn't say anything. go ahead. >> senator coburn introduced a plan that was extraordinarily detailed. >> it's not coburn plan, todd. >> it's the bumper sticker being voted on. >> the house has plan. coburn has a plan. >> have you read this, todd? have you read this? have you read it? >> no, i haven't read it. >> how do you know you're saying there's something in here and i'm reading it. >> at least you're holding on to something. this is the president's plan. right here. this is it. nothing. it's vapor. there is no plan, because there's no leadership. period. >> the president's plan outlines $4 trillion in cuts. >> there is no plan. >> to the speaker's credit, she being held hostage by tea party republicans. >> let's go to the outlet as they say in football. the outlet pass. former president bill clinton weighed in with a debt creel wig an interview with joe who

writes, clinton says he would invoke the so-called constitutional option to raise the nation's debt ceiling "without het tags and force the courts to stop me" in order to prevent a default. that's the national memo dotcom. is that true? he believe s president has the executive authority to pay the bills? >> a lot of experts who believe the plaed the authority. i don't think this president is interested in pursuing that route because it doesn't do anything but kick the can down the road. he wants the big deal. the speaker wants the big deal and tea party republican, holding it up. you're right president clinton thrown the outlet pass because barack obama can in the interests of avoiding the debt collapse and the calamity that could befall after the 3rd of august -- >> non-partisan. better for the president if this thing comes to hell in early august, the house leaders saying no deal unless you give us a two-thirds balanced budget deal

we're not going with you. what's the president supposed to do with that bill when he's up against a hard place? >> if the question is better politically for the president to send out letters that say, we're sorry we can't pay your social security? yeah, that's going to aggregate better for the president. i don't think that it's going to -- certainly hope it does not come to that, not just as a partisan but as an american. >> let me ask you what would you do if you were the house leader and wanted to end this? the old deal was, if you had the hot hand and republicans spending, you guy, ahead in spending. most say you're the party of less taxes and probably cut spending better. that's generally the assumption when people vote. you get a 4-1 swap or 3-2, or 5 swap. take a really good deal. give the president revenues as a face saver and say deal and move on. $4 billion in cuts. a billion maybe in revenues. isn't that better than holding up the government like this? why don't you do it like that? >> two points.

number one, no one's opposed to increasing revenue. how do you do it? reform the tax code, low aring rates getting rid the ridiculous exemptions, i think the overwhelming majority of republicans will sign on to that. if you don't do it that way, the problem is what history has shown is every time we raise taxes, washington just spends the money. you know, anyone who thinks we would raise taxes and then that money would automatically get applied to the debt, hasn't spent much time looking at history. >> we are running a $2 trillion debt now, deficit now. thank you very much, steve and todd. we see the situation. up next, what does it say about the republican president's field when another group of party insiders is trying to recruit chris christie to run. still looking to this guy. hasn't he said no enough already? stick around for the "sideshow." you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪

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now for the "sideshow." when the deadline for annie agreeme agreement on the debt ceiling was set for august ened 2nd the result of the treasury department, another theoryhoriz. another reason. why did he think the president wants to get the debt ceiling debate squared away on that day? listen to mr. gomer. >> i can't help but be a little cynical here, because, you know, we find out the president has a big birthday bash scheduled for august 3rd, celebrities flying in from all over and lo and behold, august 2nd is the deadline for getting something done so he can have this massive, maybe the biggest fund-raising dinner in history for a birthday celebration.

>> well, louis gomer is actually a birther. fact is he believes the president wasn't born in america and suddenly he's an expert on his birthday. up next, i guess chris christie wasn't able to get his message across the first few tim times asked about running for president. let's listen to the variety of ways he's tried to answer the question, are you running for president? >> i'm not running to president. >> would want it that badly. >> not going to happen. >> i'm going to continue to sit back, do my job in new jersey. >> what do i have to do short of suicide to convince people i'm not running. >> my god, i'm not running for president. >> there is no chance, zero. >> seems adamant there to me, but at least someone seems to think christie could still be wooed. this time the could you foernd of home depot, treated christie tore an afternoon in manhattan he and other republicans tempted to change his mind for 2012. and dialing speaker phone, quite

an effort if they couldn't make it. they weren't dealing with someone known top cave under pressure. coming up, rupert murdoch tells britain's parliament he knew nothing about that phone hacking scandal and never tried to cover it up. the moat dramatic moment off the day, a man tries to his murdoch in the face with a shaving cream pie. the latest when we return. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. has a best-in-class driving range of over 500 miles per tank. so you can catch morning tee time in pebble beach and the afternoon meeting in los angeles all without running out of gas. just make sure you don't run out of gas. ♪

much as i about a com before i invest in it. that's why i like fidelity.

they give me tools and research i can't get anywhere else. their stock screener lets me search for stocks with more than 140 criteria. i can see what their experts are thinking and even call them to bounce an idea off of one of their investment professionals. a good strategy relies on good insight. if you wanted to learn more about a company, i think you'd actually have to be there. i'm anthony pearson with your cnbc wrap. a hup rally on strong corporate earning and a bipartisan plan to lower the deficit. the dow jones industrial soaring 202 points. the s&p 500 jumping 21. the nasdaq surging 61 points. coca-cola, ibm, wells fargo,

harley davidson, gist a few of the big names moving higher today on better than expected quarterly earnings. but we also had goldman sachs falling far short of estimates on sharp drops in trading revenue and bank of america posting a loss that $8.5 billion settlement wouldn't work with investors. gains accelerating after president obama backed the gang of six proposal that would cut the deficit by more than $4 trillion, and two big names reporting after the closing bell. yahoo! delivered and apple's earnings, blowout results again last quarter boosted by soaring sales of the ipad. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." no, no, no. oh. oh.

. >> welcome back to "hardball." 9 scene earlier today. it wasn't quite caught by the camera but a protester interrupted rupert and james murdoch's testimony attempting to three pie in the face of rupert murdoch. in london, and martin bashir. i guess the pie thing. martin, why don't they use real by but use shaving cream? >> it might be, but it also means that it's easier to get in. you can get one of these minuscule shaving foam tins and can you take a paper plate in and so it's slightly easier to get in through security, i guess that was why. an awful thing and it really was embarrassing for the british parliament because i don't think anybody wanted that. they wanted to continue what was

a fairly excruciating experience for mr. murdoch senior and jr. but didn't want it to be painful in anything other than the content that they putting it to him. they didn't want that to happen. >> here's rupert murdoch's response who was to blame with the problems at "news of the world." >> mr. murdoch, have you considered resigning? >> no. >> why not? >> because i feel that people are i trusted, i'm not saying who. i don't know what level, but they let me down and i think they behaved dreadfully in the trade for the company and for me and it's for them to pay. i think that, frankly, i'm the best person to run this company. >> well, let me ask robert about this. is that going to work? is that going to be part of his confessional tour if he doesn't confess? seems like a classic apology without a confession.

>> yeah. i think this whole defense is pretty problematic. all very well, something of murdoch's stature saying he just didn't know what goes on "the news of the world" was doing, and he represents 1% of his global business, but it raises questions about jft how in charge he is, just how much in control of his organization he is, and whether he's fit to be the chief executive as well at chairman of news korcorporation. most in priten would give him a five, six out of ten. realistically raises many questions. 2 will come up in investigations on both sides of the ocean, of course. >> seems like a medieval dunkings to see whether or not the guy the a witch or not. is this supposed to be cathartic and humiliating enough and enough shouting for people to hear, he's had what's coming to him and now it's sort of behind him and his troubles? >> i don't any it is, chris,

because he -- it was a pitiful and painful experience to see and octogenarian subjected to this kind of withering questioning, and he couldn't remember times, place, names. his son had to keep interjecting to save him and help him, but they all maintained a particular line, and that was that they didn't know anything. that they obfuscate wld it came to payments and settlements and repeat dld blamed nameless individuals much lower down the food chain. is that really satisfactory, to people, for example, like the parents of a 13-year-old child who had been murdered, but whose cell phone had been hacked repeatedly by "news of the world" journalists so they could listen to messages left on her phone? i don't think they're satisfied by that kind of answer as all. i think a lot of people also are wondering, as robert moore was just saying, how was it possible

for a plan to are chairman and chief executive yet carry with him not a scintilla of governance responsibility? he repeatedly says he doesn't know what's going on in his companies. if he doesn't know what's going on in his companies, should he really be in a joint senior position over them? >> look at other testimony today. here's rupert murdoch, james murdoch his son and rebekah brooks all apologizing for "the news of the world"'s behavior. >> this is the most humble day of my career. the same story is not enough. things must be put right. no excuses. . it's a matter of great regret of mine, my father's and everyone at news corporation, and these are standards, these actions do not live up to the standards that our company aspires to. it's our determination to both put things right. make sure these things don't

happen again. >> i would like to add my own personal appaologies and the apologies that james and rupert murdoch made today. clearly, what happened at "the news of the world" and certainly the allegations of voice intercepts, is pretty horrific and abhorrent. >> as i said, robert, it's an apology without a confession. what does that mean? >> we've seen it in the states here so many times, mistake was made. we know exactly the way that the grammar that's used. here we have somewhat of an about the je object but no specificity to an apology. i didn't hear one. >> this is a multilevel scandal. this doesn't just involve news corporation. tomorrow an emergency session of the house of commons and the scandal is going to lap closer to david cameron on downing street. that big question continuing to haunt the british prime minister. why on earth did he hire a former "news of the world"

editor andy coulson as his chief spokesman? i remember when that news broke i was stunned andy coulson was going into the heart of government. that raises a big question about the judgment of david cameron and then we've got the whole question about the police accepting payments from "news of the world," and news international journalists. most every institution is involved in this scandal. and investigations are underway. a difficult few weeks and months ahead for all of them. >> here's rupert murdoch, questions about the time he spent with britain the prime minister and how he went in the back door and why he did so. let's listen. >> why did you enter the back door of number 10? >> because i was asked to. to avoid photographers in the front, i imagine. i don't know. i was asked. i just did what i was told. >> martin did he save his job today? >> no, he didn't, but let me tell you something else, chris. tony blair's press secretary,

alastair campbell, wrote in his own diaries that we got rupert murdoch through the back door. here was a chief of a media conglomerate, international con glocher it repeatedly going through number 10 through the back door, enormous influence and power. interesting to see seen what's happened in the last two week. until two weeks ago every politician in this country was fawning over this man. kissed his ring as it were, sought his patronage, tried their level best not to stop him from growing his organization. now they're treating him like a man whose got viralant lep pra and they know it could come to a catastrophic end. >> the best flattery is insincere flatdry and this guy has had a lot of insincere

flattery going his way for too long, perhaps. anyway, the world's getting even. thank you martin bashir and steve moore fos they one. and martin sheen is leading a different campaign. coming here next. this is "hardball," only on msnbc.

presidential candidate michele bachmann says she suffers from migraine headachance but he wouldn't interfere with her ability to serve at president. a blogger, the first to report that baug plaun suffers from migraines quoten anonymous former aides who says they could incapacitate her for days at a time. we'll be right back after this. somewhere in america, a city comes to life.

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we're back. drug courts used as an alternative to the criminal justice system for nonviolent offenders since 1989, but supporters say we need more of them. earlier i spoke with actor martin sheen, a big advocate for the courts, along with the judge in buffalo, new york, robert russell. mr. sheen, it's an honor to have you on. i think you have done more to inspire people about american politics with "west wing" than a lot of politicians have ever dreamed of doing. i've wanted to have you on. >> i'm glad to hear it. >> you are here to talk about drug courts. tell us about them. >> well, i've been a supporter of drug court for nearly 20 years. i had some very personal involvement in 1996 up in the bay area in berkeley, as a matter of fact, where i was instrumental in beginning a

program called options founded by myself, father bill odonald, god rest him and dr. cody, an addiction specialist. we started the program basically for homeless people, street people in berkeley. we got the support of bobby miller, the police chief of berkeley, and judge carol brosnihan. with this form, we started bringing people back to their health. we established in the beginning three sober living houses. we have six now. where 6,000 people have gone through the program. there are 105 beds available on any given night. it's a tremendous success. and so it's something i'm terribly proud of, all in large measure thanks to drug court. >> judge russell, you're the judge. a lot of people go to jail for possession, of course, different kinds of drugs. how is this program different in terms of what it does to the

person who gets picked up, and also to society? how is it better to deal with the drug court approach? >> thank you very much for having me on and asking that question. having been a drug treatment court judge for the last 16 years and also doing mental health court and veterans treatment court, we realize in the justice system and in the criminal justice system that we can't continue to do the same thing over and over again and somehow believe the results are going to be different. we've seen a tremendous increase in our prison population, and one way to address that is through drug treatment court. how does it differ? it differs by having someone engage in their treatment counseling program under strict judicial supervision. what i mean by that is, they come back to court every two weeks in the court itself, we work on drug testing, we work on supervision, we work on getting that person clean and sober. that person becoming employed, and that person becoming a

contributing member of society rather than taking away from society. in addition, we reduce crime. 75% of those who complete graduate from drug treatment courts around the country. they do not reoffend. in addition, when i think about it now, we've got close to 2,500 drug treatment courts across the united states working hard each and every day to impact on the inappropriate behavior, get people clean, sober, reunited with their family, taking care of their children, and being productive in our communities. >> martin, i've been close to this in our family. i've got to tell you, what do you do to a good kid, who's in school, having trouble, because he's on drugs? maybe coke, and he's got bad guys trying to push it to him all the time. >> yes. >> tell me how you deal with those situations? how do you keep the kid at 20 years old, in a bad crowd, that's pushing the stuff at him, and he's trying to get off of

it. how does this help? >> if he's made contact with the law, if he's broken the law, he's going to land in somebody's courtroom action and he's going to have to face the consequences for his behavior. i'll let judge russell take it from there. how do you save this kid? >> what we work on in drug treatment court is not only having the person engage in treatment counseling program, but we work on relationships. we constantly talk about people, places and things, them not putting themselves in the company of certain people. we work on having probation, community supervision, closely watching and monitoring the activities and behavior of that person. in addition, if the person are not doing the things they're supposed to do, we work on behavior modification, consequences, sanctions, and in addition to incentives to help that person stay on track and do the things that they need to do to be productive, educated and

move forward in their life rather than caught up in the criminal justice system. martin, how can people find out more? >> just go to www.allrise.org. it's great to have you guys on. thank you for coming on "hardball." >> thank you so much. >> thank you so much, chris. when we return, let me finish with the street theater, the performance art of today's republican party. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪ your finances can't manage themselves. but that doesn't mean they won't try. bring all your finances together with the help of the one person who can. a certified financial planner professional. cfp. let's make a plan.

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let me fin tonight. you know when you're in the city on a weekend near the art museum and there's this guy in a marcel marseau costume? that's what the republicans are engaging in now, performance art, pushing up against a wall. all that's missing are the clown costumes, though everybody knows what they're watching. performance art, street theater, a joke. the republican bill has no specifics, just dealing with an overall spending cut numbers. the cap proposal supposedly only cuts below 20% a decade from now. the bald the-budget amendment to the constitution takes a two third vote in both houses which everyone on earth knows isn't in