away for us. >> hey, richard. an insanely exciting hour ahead. tracking the debt ceiling madness. more on the nfl lockout madness answers our favorite bookie comes by to give the odds on how long rupert murdoch can last. the show starts right now. the big story, pressure cooker. good day. i'm matt miller in today for dylan ratigan. dylan's hard at work on his upcoming book. a sweltering heat wave grips the nation, the pressure is turned up on washington tore a debt ceiling with just 12 days to go. the white house calling out the "new york times" for sending out a bad alert that obama and boehner are close to a major budget deal. listen in. >> the breaking news, reports that you all have probably received is incorrect. there is no deal. we are not close to a deal. >> in the house, the s&p pulls

freshmen republicans aside for waiting to act. holding out to the last minute when the markets tank and believe the ball will be in their tank because in political pro wrestling time means levera leverage. meantime, the cut, cap and balance amendment, demanding a vote because it doesn't have a chance of survival. senator reid trying to put on the pressure with speaker boehner firing right back. >> time is of the essence. when there are people who want to cause problems it takes a long time to get things done. unfortunately, the loudest, shrilling voices from the republican party are not reasonable leaders but tea party extremists. >> the ball continues to be in the president's court. he needs to step up and work with us on the spending cuts and reforms that the american people are demanding. >> with all this pro wrestling ready to blow the lid off the political pressure cooker, leave it to the satirical newspaper "the onion" to flab the most

telling headline of the day. here it is -- congress continues debate over whether or not nation should be economically ruined." nbc's luke russert is live on capitol hill. the onion seems like they have it right. sometimes satire is the best commentary, police commentary. where are things at this hour? >> reporter: a lot of rumors floating around capitol hill now about last hour. there is rumors spread by democratic senate aides and the fact that the white house and president obama and speaker boehner agreed some sort of $3 trillion deficit deaf deal that would, in fact, not have revenue in it. right now the promise of tax reform next year. that was immediately shout down by the white house. the president's communications director tweeting that there has to be any new, debt deal would have to contain some sort of revenue right there. speaker boehner on the rush limbaugh program and said there's been no deal publicly or privately. so that's what the official word is now. a lot of stuff going on behind the scene. we can tell you harry reid, a

democratic senator, said revenue absolutely must be if any debt deal. can't all be spending cuts. that sentiment echoed by a lot of democratic members and house members saying any final deal smuft have balance. as for what the schedule is moving forward, there's a republican caucus meeting tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. expected there might be discussion what will be a final plan. in terms of chatter, matt, more chatter today about getting to a defining done deal than at any time going through this entire process. >> luke, quickly, the gang of six framework obama made nice noises about, that seemed to have a lot of momentum you know, 48 hours ago, would it pass the senate? can they muster 60 votes for that at this point? >> reporter: that's the million dollar question. it's really unknown at this time. what we're hearing about the gang of six, though, some sort of hybrid deal. you've heard about this mcconnell, harry reid compromise

of which the debt limit extended three time. falling on the onus of republican people to vote against it and $1.5 trillion in cuts. dianne feinstein, the senator came out and briefed reporters at the white house and said that where she was would in fact be this type of deal, where you have mcconnell and reid and then a gang of six attached to that in some sort of framework saying we would pass a temporary deal with mcconnell and reid and the sgang of six written up, vast bipartisan support would, then, in fact, be enacted later. look, matt, only 12 days until the united states government defaults on its loans. republicans met with s&p at 3:00 on the house side, the agency essentially telling them, look, you are need to get a deal done. the u.s. economy cannot afford to default. a lot of trains leaving the station now. the question is which one ultimately gets to you a debt deal? it is still very much unknown. >> luke russert on capitol hill for us tracking all the trains

in all the stations. thank you. >> reporter: a lot of trains. take tanchcare. >> thanks as always. the balanced amendment, calling the president arrogant for telling americans to eat air peas and accept higher taxes. welcome. >> nice to be with you. >> you've been around a long time. here for the 1995 shutdown. essentially, what's different in your view, between the kind of high jihijinks shenanigans? >> the new member, focused on the true policy rather than the politics. 1995, you kind of had a big anti-clinton we're going to show you sort of attitude. this time you see a lot of sincerity. both parties have a lot of sincerity saying this is a serious crisis where every dollar we spend, 40 cents is borrowed. we borrow a lot from china and other countries overseas that might not always have our best

interests at stake. so i think that there is a debate going on here that's far more sincere and far more profound. a feeling that this is important for the future of america, for our children, and at the same time, as you point out, we're concerned about the economy. a lot of energy in this town right now. lots of rumors and probably the most climactic period of time i've seen since i've been here, that's 19 years. >> confusing for a lot of americans. harry reid offered a statement. i'll play it. if you're not confused already, give a listen to this. >> it appears to me they're going to do indirectly what they can't do directly by not sending us whatever they decide to do in time to get it done. >> that's -- what do you make of that? >> you know, matt, i'd feel better if harry reid can pass a budget. the harry reid senate rejected

the president's budget 97-0. if they could pass any budget, maybe they would not have to work over the weekend. maybe they'd be viable partners in trying to address this, cut, cap and balance has passed the house. the senate will voted on it saturday. i think that's a good thing. as you know, the chances of it passing are very slim. we'd love to see them pass anything so we can sit at the table. for right now, the only body that has passed a budget or passed anything to do with the debt ceiling is the house. it is not the senate. >> the congress -- congressman, george will, generally an ally, a new column up on "the washington post." online, in the paper tomorrow. he's arguing that the tea party folks ought to support the mcconnell scheme, rather than view it as some kind of cave. he's actually arguing the tea party folks and conservatives should stru as the best way to keep pressure on republicans. what do you make of george

will's argument? leez on your side and urging you to take a different view than you've taken? >> coming from george will, that has a lot of viability. something considered. i think we should all consider anything, by the way, right now to look at a way out of here. one of the interesting columns ritten by charl krauthammer this weekend, what you need, a five-month deal. the reason that's important, the president keeps saying he's for entitlement reform but hasn't put any on the table. if you give him a five-month extension on the debt ceiling that gives him five months to come up with this long-term envitalment reform. i can tell you, rank and file republicans, i'd like to see hyhim lay that card on the table. zero budget out of the senate, no concrete plans antsz imy the american people sdv to see some. >> what confusing me about your position. this comes from someone who urged democrats to embrace medicare and social security reform. we have to slow the growth ever

those programs but we need taxes as part of any longer-term budget fix. you're a representative with a lot of military folks in your district. four military bases. this is the first time we've been at war. we've been at war over ten year, where it's been a priority for the republican party to keep taxes low on the wealth jest americans at a time of war. how do you look our troops in the eye and say while they and their families, very small percentage of americans, are making this sacrifice, you're there defending the wealthiest americans from even a modest increase back to clinton era levels that were consistent with an economic boom? >> matt, one thing i want to point out, the extension of the bush tax cuts was signed by president obama just in january. i actually voted against it. >> i'm not agreeing with him. i'd like to know what you think about cutting taxes and keeping taxes low for the wealthiest at a time of war? never done before in our history. >> let me tell you this, i voted no on extending them. part of what our concern is our major concern, as the economy,

claws and scratches to recovery, it's probably not good time to increase taxes on the people who create jobs, because you know the top 1% of the income earners pay 40% of the income taxes. but let me say this, if the president wants to put major tax reform on the table, a flat tax, a fair tax, something that simplifies the tax code, makes it fair, equitable. i actually think that we should talk about that. i think getting rifd the underbrush in terms of kworpt loophole, we all want tax parity that is a relative conversation. i'm a little different than the hard-line on it and i think in the name of moving forward, put some of the loopholes on the table and let's work together to eliminate them. >> congressman jack kingston, thanks for taking the time. we'll watch with you i'm sure in the days ahead. for folks at home, keeping taxes low on the top as a time of war, nerve e done in before american history, it's wrong. coming up, a blue dog that

says the president's barking up the wrong tree when it comes to the debt don't. his plan to pay off america's credit cards. first, is rick going to run jp could the texas governor be a game changer for the gop? and making money out of murdoch, but not an an investors. our favorite bookie on betting on whether his empire will fall. you're watching "the dylan ratigan show," only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] this...is the network -- a network of possibilities. in here, the planned combination of at&t and t-mobile would deliver our next generation mobile broadband experience to 55 million more americans, many in small towns and rural communities, giving them a new choice. we'll deliver better service, with thousands of new cell sites... for greater access to all the things you want, whenever you want them. it's the at&t network... and what's possible in here is almost impossible to say.

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i'm going through a personal process, and you'll be some of the first to know when i make a decision. >> will he or won't he give us the answer? is washington what he's looking forperry fares to better with president obama than the other candidates. trailing the president by 13 points in a potential matchup, slightly better than representative michele bachmann. meantime, rumsfeld staff reports they helped organize a meeting for perry last week. are the similarities an asset or liability? only the mega panel knows for sure. karen finney, republican strategist susan del percio and our d.c. insider jimmy wilson. susan, start with you. our republican strategist and having your teeth pulled after this program, i have to reveal. i think you view being with this panel now is like having your

teeth pulled twice in one day, i think. >> no, it's not that bad. >> not that bad. rick perry -- >> republicans making a choice for president make me feel that way at time, but not that bad on the show. >> is rick perry an answer? >> i don't know if he's the answer people thought he would have been, because, frankly, michele bachmann has really been gaining a lot of momentum to a lot of people's surprise. they figure he could come in, perry could come in on the conservative right and now the question is, can he do that, but more importantly, can he raise money? bachmann has the ability to raise a lot of money. when this first came out, no one thought that bachmann would be a serious contender and he would just have to tame romney on. >> do you think, karen, the buzz rumsfeld is now involved, bringing some of the folks back from the bush d.o.d. to brief perry so he's ready to talk on the stomp about some of this, good, bad, indifferent? >> probably not a bad thing. it certainly fuels the fire.

at this point in the game, part of what you're trying to see, how viable would a kand candidacy be? when bits like this get out, people call if you're in, i'm behind you. part of it is getting a sense where he might stand. look, if he enters the rashgs interesting is he and michele bachmann will sort of duke it out for the right. if i'm mitt romney on the one hand you could say, maybe that's good for him, although i think it's bad for him, because it could force him farther to the right than he may want to go in a primary, given that you know, look, his eye is on the prize which is the general election. >> jimmy you know, one of the things i think, a kind of yearning among the gop they're not quite satisfied with the field and rick perry on the one hand looks like a gunslinger and cowboy. my sense, look at the record in texas, it wouldn't wear well once the national media got ahold of it. massive uninsured, poverty, border issues. what do you make of his relevance to this? >> she the longest serving governor in the united states

besides i think bran stat of iowa. understand, the governorship of texas is the weakest governorship in the country. pretty much the only thing the governor of texas can actually do is appoint people to commissions. that's pretty much it. virtually no say, or she virtually has no say in how the texas legislature does its business. listen, if i'm an american and i'm sitting out there and say upstate new york looking at rick per perry, the first thing i'm thinking, another w.? another bush for all intents and purposes? while he's handsome and has a perfectly good track record as governor, he's created jobs, a lot of high tech is going to dallas and to austin, and texas a great place to live -- >> wait a second. job creation -- >> can i fish what i'm saying? >> yes. >> the fact he has all of these great things going on about him, i'm pretty sure the american people have not lost the very, very acidic taste of george w.

bush and the state of texas, which, by the way, this governor wants his state to secede from the union, not help follow to the president of the eyed. >> united states. >> he did have three of the top cities for job creation, were in texas. >> by the way, those jobs created by -- thank you -- president barack obama, for the stimulus money. a little fact that the governor likes to neglect to put in there, but he, a lot of those jobs came from the very programs that he's now railing against. so -- >> we're going to watch hollywood hansen rick perry, other highly talked about political news, eric garcetti, said to be running for mayor to succeed anthonyio villaraigosav in "the closer." name recognition, how politicians use the media in

this way. start with you, karen, is this arnold schwarzenegger in california, ronald reagan, a long tradition of this. i don't know if eric garcetti plays in that league yet, still being cast as the role you want to be on national tv accounts for something. >> gil garcetti, who was the attorney general fon the city of los angeles. clearly, he's somebody who grew up way sense of what the issues are, that l.a. is facing and sort of in the region. his father happens to be a person who works on the show and that's how he got the gig as the mayor. so you know, i think of him, a little more credit than an schwarzenegger. he has a little more sense about him and a background to understand what some of the issues are. we'll see. >> and susan, i know eric garcetti, he's a substantive guy. interesting to see if he decides to take the plunge. what do you make of this whole using -- politicians using roles on tv to kind of advance in some way their career? or is this just a --

>> in california this is really a substantial career choice as far as being an actor. but, in addition, he's got to be a little careful hanging his head on the show, considering it's going to be literally closing at the end of the season. he may not be able to rely on it too much longer. >> jimmy, let me turn to another western controversy. this rising in arizona. a movement afoot now, related to the law they passed last year that was so controversial, to actually raise private donations to create a border fence. a state senator there behind the idea of raising up to $50 million and showing lots of pictures of how poor the fences are, even those that do exist, along the border. is this a constructive way to tackle our immigration laws, jimmy? >> i don't know. i mean, look. it's simple. this president, for all the people that criticized him, in are more border patrol agents on the ground in the air, on video, than any other president in the history of the united states.

i don't care what we do, if we put up a 70,000 foot wall, if we put up land mines, if we dig a ditch that's deeper than the guadalcanal, it doesn't matter what this president does. folks on the border and people on the wire are going to bitch, complain and whine about what our border supports. i find fascinating that our borders just gauss porous in the last 2 1/2 years. how the hell 12 million people got leer in 2 1/2 years. i'm pretty sure a majority came in when george bush was president. someone explain to me why it's bad they're here and if it was so bad now, why wasn't it bad then? i don't care if they pay to put up a border fence. without them, your grass wouldn't be getting cut pb i'll tell you that. you wouldn't be eating food in restaurants. >> karen, the angle that bothering me, this idea we're

ending up with a movement to raise private donations to do functions we think government ought to be doing to talk about how the ceos need to send more money. why can't we agree that the government, we're going to, as a public entity, we're going to actually fund our schools the way we need to do have the feech teachers we want? arizona puts that in mind for me. what's your take? >> a great point. look, fundamentally that's part of the argument we're having as a knt right now in terms of what is the role of government? time after time, state after state and here at the federal level you're seeing republicans strangling government to make it to -- actually make it fail the people, and in a sense creating, i guess, this opportunity for private industry. yes, if you believe there a is a role for government which i think there is and certainly when it comes to immigration antsz education, for example, we should be having the conversation what is the appropriate role of government? how do we make sure government has the resources it needs to do those functions?

and then what is the appropriate role for private industry? building a fence is not, by the way, going to solve the problem that we have with immigration. >> all right. >> guys, hold on a second, because we're going to be back in a second with much more with you guys in the mega panel. straight ahead, as we continue, a blue dog democrat weighs in on our do-nothing congress. whoa. right? get out. i know! who knew? i mean. exactly! really. that's what i mean. [ mom ] what? shut the front door. right? seriously. who knew? hello sir. bingo! mahjong! for realz. woop-woop! franklin delano! [ male announcer ] hey, there's oreo creme under that fudge! oreo fudge cremes. indescribably good.

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with us now, longtime congressman cooper. made news with lizzen warren when he chastised both parties for the breakdown civility. give a listen. >> i don't want to be part of a committee at the subcommittee level treated ms. warren with more rudeness and disrespect

than i've ever seen a committee witness treated. that is not the american way. >> bravo. soon after he delivered his welcome rebuke to washington's pointsless biggering. he voted for the cut, cap and balance put up by republicans tuesday. i wreet in my "washington post" column is so unrealistic you might call it a war. how does the man i always view at a sea of distinction disappoint me and i asked this congressman whip all the civility i can muster, welcome, jim cooper. >> thank you, matt. glad to be with you. >> congressman, you know, ronald reagan when he ran the government you know, back in the glory days of conservatism, ran the government at 22% of gdp. federal spending and share of gdp. the bill you just voted for republicans are pushing talking about 19.9 prgs percent and even down to 18%, when we're doubling number of senior on social security and medicare. you know the math doesn't work.

why did you vote for this? >> matt, you just left out your presentation and out of your column the fact that president bill clinton working with the republican congress got federal spending down to 18.2% of gdp. but the larger point is this, you're right to point out that president reagan was a much bigger conservative than people give him credit for. spending, 23.5% gdp. there are ways to get spending down to more affordable levels and still protect beneficiaries. >> before i bring our panel back for some questions i want to ask you briefly 0 to expand on that great rant on the kind of incivility and distinction taking over the congressional process, what's the message you're trying to get out? >> we've got to disagree without being disagreeable. we had another with allan and debbie wasser man schul eerman .

this debt ceiling crisis needs to be solved. we cannot allow default for this great country. >> a question, karen finney? >> how are you, congressman? >> fine. >> going off this sort of dysfunction question, one of the things that concerns me in the debate back and forth, certainly trying to ride tead the tea lea that are leaked and out there, i don't hear anybody talking about the impact all of this will have on ordinary americans, and i use my mother frankly as my focus group when she's looking as how are some of the things discussed going to impact her social security, her medicare, not to mention budget cuts in the state of maryland where she lives? we're talking about a prit cumulative impact and i don't hear that kind of thinking going on, just a lot of rhetoric coming out? >> you need to spend more time talking to regular members of congress. we spend all day every day speaking with people back home. my mother depend on social

security and medicare. every american depends on them, we've got to keep them strong and there are ways to do that. there are problems. they're not at efficient. don't deliver the high quality health care we need. improving the situations, for example, making preventive care free. so seniors can live healthier and longer. trying to close doughnut holes for the prescription plan. there are ways these programs continually need to be reformed, and democrats should be for reform to help our beneficiaries do better. >> jimmy williams has a question. >> good to see you. i have a question. back when i moved to washington in 1992, members actually had relationships with each other. their wives knew each other. their kids went to the same schools. most members actually lived in washington, d.c. or in the suburbs. today that is not the case. today you guys are going to leave probably this afternoon or tomorrow, on the first plane out. you're going to go home. meet with constituents. do fund-raisers, have zero

contact with any other members of the house of representatives until you get back to washington, d.c. next monday or tuesday. what's the one thing that you think that we could do to make it so that you all have a vested interest in having relationships with each other, much like the relationship that tip o'neill and prez reagan had, and i could keep going on but i'll let you answer the question. what's the one thing could you do to make congress more civil? >> i'm glad you can remember those days when congress actually did a better job. a lot of folks can't believe congress ever did a better job. the key to the better performance was respect for each other. getting to know each other. not only our names but families and understanding each others -- we can do that again. weren't of the real causes of congressional dysfunction, when newt beginning rash banned new members from living in washington, d.c. we're in such close touch with con

constituents, we're all flying home. oftentimes we don't know each other's names or what we stand for, and you have to spent a lot of time with each other to craft the mega compromises like we have to do now for the ceiling bill. >> one of the cases you could make for congressional junkets. when they do fact finding misses in various ways. when i talk to folk on the hill on beeth sides, those are opportunities to develop deep relationships? on 12-hour flights, military plane, you get to know each. that's become a symbol of excess that has to be cut. what's your take on that? >> another way would be if we just lived together in an apartment house that doesn't have to be a nice apartment house near d.c. just so we knew each other as neighbors and hopefully friends. we're all human beings and represent different parts of this great country and better get along for the goodness of the country or we're all going to be in trouble. >> susan? >> seems congressman, it's not a world of respecting one another but a world of upping one over each other.

especially in the press. that's why we've seen some of these fights kind of play out. it wasn't by accident that a certain memo was b.c.'d to a reporter. how can we hold members of congress more accountable for what they're doing and for the legislation that in fact they're voting on? maybe if they were forced to read it, sounds crazy and a wild idea, but something so we can hold them accountable when they go back to their districts and say, this is what this was about, and really explain it better? >> well, you're exactly right. we live in a sound bite world. actually the media a a lot to do with that and in a world of permanent campaigns. house members have two-year terms. seems we're always running and some people are tempted to attack each other instead of getting along. the tennessee, the delegation we're split politically but all work together for the good of tennessee and for the country. other states, they cannot even have delegation meetings. they do not agree on enough to

even walk into the same room and sit down and discuss problems together. so that's a real problem. this is a redistricting here, once every ten years, politicians vote for the constituents and not the other way around, and we're going to see some crazy districts that are going to entrench partisanship in this place for another decade or so. that's something every voter should be alerted to. i have a bill open and transparent so the voters can look at districts before they're locked into some. i hope legislation like that can pass, but it's unrealistic to think with this, either party is looking for that. each is seeking party advantage. >> a couple seconds left. i'm a debt ceiling end game what are you hoping for now? what's the sort of jim cooper benevolent end game in the days ahead? >> the best solution on the table so far, the gang of six solution, bipartisan. dick durbin, tom coburn.

balanced, everything on the table. there's something for everybody to dislike, but i know of no other substantive way to get $4 trillion in deficit reduction while we pass the deficit. it would be disastrous if we do not pass this debt ceiling. >> i admire what you're try doing do even if we disagree. thanks for coming by and thanks to our mega panel. jimmy, karen and susan. up next, history was probably made while you were probably sleeping. woman: saving for our child's college fund was getting expensive.

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the "atlantis" touchdown in cape canaveral delivering its final good night after 30 incredible year. thousands gathered at the landing strip at the kennedy space center to usher in a new and i think sadder era.

one where he no longer lead the charge into outer space. more than 500 million miles and 355 parssengers later we watch the shuttle taxi off into the sunset. we wonder if we're no longer the country that doesn't aim for the stars, are we setting our sights too low? a time we could put a plan on the moon and fight a war on poverty. now we act as if we're too broken down to do so. that's not the america i know and there are ways to get or mojo back and lift our sights. for now, "atlantis'" final landing makes me sad. i'm not fur if it's the space program i already miss or what it meant about american as per sagss. coming up, still fourth and goal for the nfl lockout. an update from those in the know. that's ahead. [ female announcer ] investing for yourself is a necessity.

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show me the carfax. oh yeah, can you show me the carfax? sunglass holder... for sunglasses. just show me the carfax. before you buy a used car, get a carfax vehicle history report. see accidents and service reported to carfax and a price based on the car's history. free, at thousands of reputable dealers. just say, show me the carfax. developing right now, nfl owners are voting on a deal that could end the nfl's longest work stoppage since 198 7. even at 24 teams vote to end the lockout that doesn't mean lockout over. let's get the latest on all this craziness from the nation's magazine, editor of the upcoming

edition. and sports analyst nor espn. andrew, start with you. what have you heard coming out of the actual talks today? are we going to get a vote soon and will this be done? >> we got a lot of moving parts, matt. we have, in atlanta, owners voting maybe as we speak, supposedly before 5:00 p.m. and they need 24-32 votes to approve a settlement negotiated over the last two years but in the last seven weeks negotiations with the former union. in washington, d.c., the player reps continue to talk. they had a conference call scheduled for later today. things aren't happening as quickly there. there are issues over recertifying the union, to have a recollective bargaining agreement once again, but on two fronts, things are happening and this four-month lockout appears to be on its way. we're not there yet. maybe turbulence, but we'll have a landing fairly soon. >> if you look at the way this deal is shaping up, are you happy with this? is this fair for the players

from your point of view? >> well, i'm not getting paid. but i am happy for the players. i mean, i think if there are delays right now part of it has been lighting up with $7 billion victory cigars. when this negotiation started it was looking to me like the 27 yankees against the bad news bears. that owners had all the cards going forward. i mean, they had a $4 billion lockout fund from the networks, even if not football is going to be played, and what they thought was public opinion on their side, because historically, fans do not side with players in these sports labor conflicts. out buy think they underestimated a couple of key facts. first a lockout, not strike. second of all, a lot more knowledge by fans on the questions of concussions and health among nfl players. third of all that knowledge as about concussions and health had a radicalizing effect on players themselves in keeping then unified. you had 1,900 players and very

few defections in this process, and one objective observe worry have to give to warren smith, executive director of the nfl players' association a lot of credit for keeping his side united over the last four months. >> andrew, do you see it that way? how do you see the deal shaping up? it's like a $9 billion business. it's a fight over what chunk of the pie the players get? as was pointed out, retiring health benefits, things that could leave injured players really in the lurch when things are hot? >> obviously, bottom line is always the bottom line and how much money is split among the two sides. that's the ultimate question. the revenue split is reportedly coming out. players had 59% of revenue, a billion off the top of the owners, worked out to about 50/50. owners didn't want to live with that 50/50. that was the big of the issue going into this. what appears to be coming out of this, about a 52/48 for ownership. what are they worth?

about $200 million this year. a lot more later in the deal. that's on that side of the fence. the owners get a nice victory there. a lot of thing for the playerswe talked about health and safety. a lot of reduced off-seasons and contracts. next off-season may look light this season when they're locked out. the other thing, technical. now teams have to spend -- usually there's a cap to worry about the upper limit. now the lower limit. teams that have underspent have to spend up. $20 million we are year per team pap great thing. i always told the players, get them to bend pop don't worry about the cowboys and redskins that always bend, get the teams that don't to bend. you have upspending by the whole nfl, which helps players immensely. >> dave when i hear about all the owners, some of america's leading capitalists talking about carving up the pie and spending requirements, it always sounds like the nfl has a

socialist aspect to the way, to the way the money gets divvied up. kind of ironic. one thing that's still at stake, exhibition games that are supposed to start in the next co dlet clears and there is an agreement, i guess, today, to all the other complexities laid out, meaning we won't get the games happening that were supposed to happen? >> well, they do say that the hall of fame game which was supposed to be, i believe, august 7th. looks very unlikely. both sides said that. they don't see how they're pull that off, although organizers of it's hall of fame game are hopeful will it take place. believe me. those preseason games are run of the pressures tore owners to get it done. a ton of money coming in on the owners' side. i want to point out a couple other things that are important. yes, the players are taking less of the pie, but at the same time, the new tv contracts are due to be negotiated very soon, and the players thought they would see some of that back.

another thing, which is very important. if what eyre hearing, players have the option to get nfl health care for life nap is very different. because right now your health care caps out five years after your playing career, and if anybody who's ever been to a retirement dinner, ice have, a lot of times these older players look like they've just been through hell and back again. like they've skipped middle age and went directly in being young men to elderly. the idea they're have health care is something that's going to be very attractive to a lot of retired players, and just the last thing is, that end ever having two a day practices. that's also a huge cultural shift in the nfl, because it's always been the only pain that matters is the pain we inflict. all that vince lombardi stuff, but now we have the technology and knowledge that says, the science, that says, that at these practices, the sense of practices leads to concussions and degenerative brain disorders showing that the nflpa stood up on this and owners were

listening. that's important. >> andrew, a couple seconds for a last word. on dave's point, i wonder if the nfl players get lifetime health care, that could be the political leverage we need that will be popular. the military gets lifetime health care and the nfl lifetime health care, maybe that's the push for universal health care. you've written, nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to. can this thing go off the tracks even in the next ten minutes? >> a couple things of distinguish about health care, yes, after five year, limit for players getting health care postcareer. that will be increased. up to 10, maybe 12, 15 years. the part about health care, play verse a right to buy into the nfl plan throughout their life. they don't get it, but can buy in. that in itself is a great thing for players. because of pre-existing conditions they haven't been able to get health care in the past in the league. lifetime, able to buy into the nfl plan and not have to worry

about their pre-existing issues with all the insurance companies. that's a good thing for players. >> andrew and dave, thanks for your insight. msnbc will be tracking this. could be news really with the hour. thanks for your time today. >> you got it. deal or no deal? um canning up, "hardball" tracking the latest from the debt ceiling rating and what would happen if we went into default? first will rupert murdoch get another pie in the face? bet bets in the news corp. scandal. [ male announcer ] walls can talk.

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investing in news corp.

might not be the best investment these days. maybe you think there's no way murdoch survives as ceo or know for the fact somebody will attempt another pastry delivery to his face. what do you do with this information? you put your money where your mouth is, of course. joining me now to give us the odds at the dylan ratigan resident bookie, ed, welcome. >> hi. how you doing? >> you got a lot of stuff on your site boedog. you got odds, i think, already on to be leaving news corp. before september, because of all of the controversy. tell us what the results are, and how you see that stacking up? >> well, basically saying all of his sons, everyone calls them now, will either of them leave by end of september 5-1. it's a question of arrogance on this one. will they step down?

of course they won't. they've been hit by everyone. good people, bad people, had everything thrown in their face metaphorically. i can't see anyone leaving. don't touch that, 5-1. that's a bad bet. they're going to hold on. thought closing down the newspaper might shut all this off. it hasn't. that doesn't mean they're going to step down. >> what are you tracking on wendi murdoch? an overnight sensation leaping to her husband's defense and slapping the pie thrower upside the face much faster than others. are you tracking stuff on wendi? >> absolutely. and the police themselves. the police were about five minutes behind wendi. she was right in there. i mean, she's so fast. you guys have gladiators, got get her on the show. the trouble is i can't see wendi being on an nbc show. there it is.

no. i mean, look, the girl's fast. much faster than her husband, obviously a little older. he'll be first of leave out of those three? i couldn't tell you. >> i can tell you have odds on whether rupert murdoch will be hit by eggs. i think by midnight sunday. eggs or pie. how's that look? >> yeah. 10-1. again, this should be 100-1. security will be really tight. if you're fancying egging or pieing of any murdoch, get them in the morning, on their morning jog. athts less security around. don't do another press conference. any press conference now will have so much security around it, it will feel like they're royal wedding over here again. >> people think, wow, interesting bets. funny bets but also interesting. you've got actual money changing hands on this stuff. right? >> oh, very much so. on whether his fortune will go up and down according to forbes,

betting on that. i say his fortune will go up, his rating on his powerful performance will go down, but i think the 5-1, as i say, either of them will step down, they've got to make another step. rebekah brooks, clearly, so far not touching family. if this was one of them to step down by the end of the year, that might be about interesting bet, but by the end of september, where we've set the barometer, they're going to do what the labor party used to do over here in the uk. an official inquiry, wait three moss and it dies down. so far they haven't managed to quell the media in the way they thought they could control the media, and look at them now. all oerch are the place. hysterical in my opinion. >> ten seconds before we got to run. rebekah brooks. her hair became famous this week also. i could see odds on whether that hair-style will become banned because she's persona el