and i hope we all do what is best for the country. i saw president tonight, though, that i think i want to see more of. i would like to thank you all for joining me tonight. a live edition of "hardball" starts right now. >> holy pulpit, let's play "hardball." leading off tonight, break down. we are 2340u 11 day frets deadline to raise the debt ceiling and we're headed in revers rereverse. the president called a news conference to say republicans

are walking way from deal because they want to put all of the burden on the poor and middle class while protecting the rich. president ordering boehner, reid, pelosi, back to the white house at 11:00 tomorrow morning. in just a few minutes speaker boehner is expected to come out and hold his own news conference. when he does, we will go to it live. let's get to it. washingtonpost.com is an msnbc political analyst and major garrett is from the national journal. major, i thought that was an extraordinary use of the power of the oval office. >> quite clearly, the president is frustrated. he has today continued what he said for two or three weeks. he is prepared to take medical risks. prepared to change the way washington thinks about politics. especially the way it is with budget and taxation. that's the president's frame. he talked about it in these frames for about two weeks. he talked the most progressive

way to date this afternoon. if you look at the polling, the president is in favor of presentation of his pursuit of grand bargain pb portraying them as stubborn. >> what i was was most significant is the way in which -- here we are trying to read the tea leaves. some thought they were close it a deal. noernls said no deal. we laid it all out there. here's the president talking about the proposed deal. let's listen. >> we were offering a deal that called for as much discretionary savings with the gang of six. we were calling for taxes that were less than what gang of six proposed. and we were calling for modifications to entitlement programs would have saved just as much over the ten-year window. in other words, this is was an

extraordinary fair deal. >> he spoke with specificity. i think putting the onus on speaker boehner to have to stand up in 13 or so minutes and respond in kind. >> you know, i would say, michael and i know major shares my sentiment. about one minute into the conference you knew there would be a boehner proes conference. you know going directly at john boehner. this is someone with whom he has worked. he has had a contentious relationship with eric cantor. but he and boehner have been, to a grand bargainer, a bigger deal, what i was most struck buy sbi this a president bho who is decidedly self contained emotionally. this is as visceral, as angry. he bordered on outright straight

anger. which we rarely see from him. i think it is something that will get the democratic basics. on twitter, way is following it. a lot of folks saying this is the define be moment. what i would caution against is remember who obama is targeting since the 2010 election and when the 2011 election started. moderates independence wbs what do they like most? the since that washington is working. this nasty rhetoric, i think it ends up being a lose-lose for both sides. >> what i found interesting on that score is the president said look i'm prepared to do tough stuff on an issue that they ran on. president obama spoke about willing to take the heat from list party. let's listen. >> i was willing to take a lot of heat from my party and i spoke to democratic leaders yesterday. and although they didn't sign off on plan they were willing to engage under serious negotiations.

despite a lot of heat from a lot of interest groups around the country in order to make sure we dealt with this problem. it is hard to understand why speaker bane wore walk away from this kind of deal and frankly if you look at the commentary out there, there are a lot of republicans that are puzzled as to why it couldn't get done. >> nbc's kelly o'donnell is joining us from capitol hill. kelly, you interrupted us earlier and said this is not a good tellment. you weren't kidding. >> reporter: we got a lot of the behind the scenes from them and i can tell you that the tone from the president and tone from the house republicans, this is a divide not only in not being able to get a deal but how they view this. you heard what president thinks went wrong. what we were told is that the house republicans do believe that the white house was willing to make some big structural

changes to how things work. giving them credit for that. what they say really derailed this is when the gang of six came back. that group of bipartisan senators working for months on their own deal. they were considered to be own the side lines. they burst back on the scene tuesday with a package that differs from what the white house and speaker boehner had been talking bp gop aids say then the white house pulled back. and began to change its demands and change what it wanted. so speaker boehner is saying yes, the white house was willing to change the tax code but then came back and wanted to do things that would have left the possibility for cuts in some of the spending. but not the kind of package that they had talked about. basically it gets complicated. i won't go into all of the weeds but they walked us through many steps of where they say the white house pull pulled back app at that point they felt they had nowhere to go. for example they talked about

having a change in the tax code cho would lower rates. after the gang of six they said the wlous no longer wanted to do that. wanted a different size package. wanted to change in t in a way republicans couldn't live p wp what aides it speaker boehner said is they acknowledge there would be a tough sale of this. there would be somewhere in the range of $425 billion to butts to medicare and other healthcare. it could change el gentleman eligibility rates, co-pays. >> kelly -- >> they would have ultimately say yes there would be more tax revenue coming in. >> i have sound from president moments ago, i think pretty much onscore of what you are saying. it is about revenue or not having revenues in this deal would mean. let's listen. >> if you have no revenues at

all what that means is more after burden on seniors. more drastic cuts to education. more drastic cuts to research prs a bigger burden to services to going middle class families all across the country. it essentially asks nothing of corporate jet owners. asks nothing of oil and gas companies. asks nothing from folks like me who is done extremely well and can afford to do a little bit more. in other words, if you don't have have revenues the entoir things ends up being tilted on the back of the poor and middle class families. >> kelly, what i heard the president say is to the extent there is impal which he was willing to accept, it was imbalanced in the direction of the gop, the republicans and still it wasn't enough for them you got to believe that john boehner will respond to that in about 10 minutes time.

>> certainly this issue is such a complex plan that there is phases and what congress was concerned about that if congress didn't do the tough things like making changes to the entitlement programs which would be politically very tough, then they fear they would be left with only the tax increases. this comes down to a lot of fine print and complex issues. both sides agreed that tax should change in terms of what you can deduct. some of those things would go away. rates should come down. then republicans say they want to go back to the idea of having the high est wagerner losing tax bush cuts. so did they have some of the same interest going into it? it appears they did and i think it is interesting, politically, that republicans are blaming the gang of six for sort of getting in the way. we have will have to wait to see what they say about that. now they want to get the president into the negotiating

room. what did the president do? invite them all to the white house tomorrow. whatever this does, it created an absolute aurjant warning bell that's gone off all over the capitol and the white house. which changes dynamics again. it exposes some of what they have been talking about trying to show from each side where the other side was in transit. that is important detail in hoping build a signal to the sex treems in both parties pch you heard the president reference interest groups. certainly boehner's letter to his colleague hes had a letter in fighting taxes and sending cuts. >> you wonder, was speaker boehner the impediment in the eyes of the. he made reference, here it is, to being left at alter. i think that is about the speaker -- >> my relationship with speaker boehner. we have add cordial relationship. very intense.

i will have any team tell you exactly how the negotiations proceeded pl earlier today when i couldn't get a phone call returned, my expectation is that speaker boehner would be willing to go to his caucus, and ask them to do the tough things but the right thing. i think it has proven speaker boehner difficult to do that. i have been left at the altar now a couple of times. i this that i one of the questions that republican party has to ask itself is, can they say yes to anything? >> kelly, you were responding to that issue of the rerelationship between the speaker and the president. >> i think the when the president was calling earlier in the day the speaker knew this was coming and was not yet prepared to break that news. they had to get their ducks in in a row. the speaker feels it is very important that members find out

about there at the same time. so certainly the president has made it very politically tough on boehner tonight by making it look like boehner is the obstructionist. banor many come out and refrain it as to the white house having changed the game during the process of goe asiaations. the big headline is they say they can get something done this weekend and that's what we've got to watch. >> major garrett, i heard two references it made to talk radio and ideology. there was no level of negotiation to appease some on the other side of the aisle in part because of constituencies they are responding. >> that's the president's interpretation and he is entitled to it. talking to very seerory house republican aides until 4:30 this afternoon, there was a meeting that boehner had this morning on capitol hill that a deal was still possible. there were very important

granular details which kelly touched on a few, that needed to be worked out. at least the potential of something working out in expectation indeed. that conversations would continue through this weekend. but clearly the speaker reached a different conclusion. probably one he was keeping very close to the vest. that ultimately on these details, of execution, process and granular details about the tax code, medicare, medicaid, the very tough stuff in policy the bridges could not be crossed. with all due respect to the president, i so wo say conceptually there, rough agreements but they were never at the point where things were drafted or -- there has handshake agreement. i would say the president wasn't left at the altar so much as he hadn't got a promise ring after the dates. >> the president made mention of radio hosts and talked about working stiffs. let's listen. snrs. >> working stiffs out there. ordinary folks who are struggling. everyday.

and they know they are getting a raw deal and they are mad at everybody about it. they are mad at democrats and republicans and they know no matter how hard they work, they don't seem to be able to keep up. what they are looking for is someone willing to look out for them. that's all they're looking for. and you know, for us not to be keeping those folks in mind every single day, when we're up here. for us to be more worried about what some thunder says or some talk radio show host says or what some columnist says -- or what pledge we signed back when we were trying to run or worrying about having a pry playerry fight. for us to be thinking in those terms, instead of thinking about

those folks, is inexcusable. >> he sure is an effective communicator. it sets the stage for a tough order for john boehner coming up in just a minute. >> you know, major mentioned this at the top. but that speech right there was 100% politics. that was a political speech. >> directed to whom? >> directed to the american people. we are now beyond a big deal. you don't do a press conference like that if you think there is a shred of possibility can get done. you know what is fascinating, major meksed in the beginning when we were talking about middle class that president made up political ground. what i thought of when i watched the clip, real echos of al gore. people versus the powerful. that's about as close as barack obama is going to get to a pob umt we need to stand up for the

middle class p.m. framing this as a debate between the powerful special interest and republicans not willing to get over. he didn't mention it by name but essentially did. while he is looking out for the middle class for the people who i would just remind folks, tend to decide elections pb plid el class. he is their champion. >> i still remember the fact that his op ad, this morning, the final line mate a plea. not only for rs or ds but to people of i. here comes speaker john boehner right now wp we will listen and then analyze. >> good evening. want to be clear. no one want to default on the credit of the united states government. i'm convinced we will not. starting tonight i will be working with colleagues in here

in the capitol. we will spiend find a responsible path forward. i have con if i den in the bipartisan leaders of cones from to be sure we have an agreement that will allow the country to avoid default and meets principled we have outlined. spending cuts that must be greater than the increase in the debt limit and no tax increases. discussions we've had with the white house have yeken down for two reasons. first they insist on not raising taxes. we had an agreement on a revenue number app number we thought we could reach based on a flatter tax code that would produce more economic growth, more employees an taxpayers and a tax system

that was more efficient in collecting the taxes that were due the federal government. let ne just state that white house moved the goalpost. there was an agremt on additional revenues until yesterday when the president demanded $400 billion more which was going to be nothing more than a tax increase on the american people. i can tell that you leader cantor and i were very disappointed in this call for higher revenue. secondly they refuse to get serious about cutting spending and making the tough choices that are facing our country on entitlement reform. that's the bottom line. i take the same oath of office as the president of the united states. i've got the same responsibilities as the president of the united states. and i think that's for both of us to do what's in the best

interest of our country. and i can tell you that it's not in the best interest of our country to raise taxes during this difficult economy and it is not in the best interest of our country to ignore the serious spending challenges that we face. and i want to say this is a serious depate. this is a debate about jobs. this is a debate about our economy and frankly a big debate about the future of our country. you know, until recently, the president was demanding that the congress increase the debt limit with no strings attached. matter of fact, treasury secretary sent me a letter two days after we were worn in in january. demanding that we give him a clean increase in the debt limit. i immediately responded and told the treasury second that the american people con tolerate a clean increase in the debt ceiling unless there were serious spending cuts attached

and real reforms to the way we spend the american people's money. i went to new york city in may. gave a speech to the new york economic club where i outlined challenged we were facing and i made a clear that we would not increase the debt limit. without cuts that streeted that increase in the debt limit. that there would be no new taxes. and that there would be serious spending reforms put in place. it's time it get serious. and i'm confident that bipartisan leaders here in congress can act. white house won't get serious, we will. >> your own aides say the package on the table is worth about $3 million. how can you say that white house wasn't serious about spending cuts? that's more than you were asking for initially? >> we put plan after plan on the table. you know the house passed its budget. we had our plan out there.

the house passed the cut cap and balance. never once did the president ever come to the table with the plan. it was always -- we were always pushing. you know, when you get into these negotiations, sometimes it's good to back away from the tree and take a look at the forest. yesterday afternoon, after after the president demanded more revenue this this package, i came back against -- away from the tree. i spent most of the morning an aef mon with our members of congress and others about the way to go forward. i want to tell you what i said several weeks ago. dealing with the white house is like dealing with a bowl of jell-o. i'm not going to get into the partisan sniping that we heard earlier. but i can tell you that there was every effort in the world to

avoid the real cuts that we need to make in order to preserve the fiscal integrity of our country and quite frankly the cuts that need to be made, that need to be made to preserve our entitlement programs which are important programs to tens of millions of americans. >> -- see that you can forth an agreement with people in the house and senate without having some buy-in from -- >> i think that we can work together here on capitol hill. we will forth an agreement. and i'm hopeful that president will work with us on that agreement bp. >> president obama said you did not return his phone call. has this permanently damaged your relationship with the president? >> president and i have gotten to know each other pretty well over the course of the last six months. i can tell new all of our conversations, they were

respectful, they were wo firm, frustration esz on both sides. but i don't believe our relationship was permanently damaged. >> president invited you to the wlo white house tomorrow morning. are you going to go? >> yes ma'am. >> you spent weeks negotiating and can't come to any agremt on this. do you trust him as a negotiator? >> i do trust him as a negotiators. you have to understand that every step of this process was difficult. you know, there is a reason why we have two political parties. there is a reason why the president and i come from different political parties. the president believes in sides much government, more taxes from the american people. every weekend when i'm not stuck here in washington, d.c., i'm out somewhere in america. i'm out around my district.

i ran into people. small business people who don't understand the taxes they pay. don't understand what is coming out of war impeding their ability to grow their business and to hire more people. and when you boil all of this down, yes we've got to save in the fiscal future for our country but we've got to get our economy going again. we have to give people confidence and the way to do that is to have real spending cuts now. >> mr. speaker, the difference is in revenues, it sounds like you and the white house is about $400 billion every ten years, that's about $4 billion a area which the federal budget is not really that much, the stakes are so high, how can the talks have broken down over this relatively insignificant number. >> the extra $400 billion would have had to come from increasing taxes on the very people we expect to invest in our economy and create jobs. >> the president suggested you

walked way from this because you could not control your own caucus. we have heard of republicanes who say default isn't something that they are concerned about. don't want to see the debt ceiling under any circumstances. were you pressured to walk away from something that you might have otherwise accepted? >> absolutely not. i gave the president's proposal serious consideration. let's understand something. there was an agreement with the white house of $800 million in revenue. the president walk aid way from his agreement and demanded more opinion money at the last minute. that is is -- and the only way to get that extra revenue is to raise taxes. >> is the short term in the d tax --. >> the president and i never discussed short term increase of debt limit. i'm not interested in a short

term increase. i believe there will be could two challenges. we have to increase the debt limit and we have to deal with our deficit and debt. app the sooner we do that the better with we will be. >> we came out with tap cab cap be a balance. cut cap balance failed in the senate. the big deal collapsed. what else is there to do? >> i'm confident, i'm confident that congress can act next week. if and not jeopardizes the faith in the united states government. >> that was house speaker john boehner following up the president's impromptu friday night conference on the failure of budget negotiations. the president took the floor earlier and said that speaker boehner walked out. stht speaker from speaker

boehner. of course moderators of meet the press, i was taken back by the first thing that john boehner said when coming out is he is looking forward to working with colleagues in congress. didn't didn't announce the white house at this moment. >> well, we skr v a new set of negotiations after these negotiations are broke why down. after the space of an hour and a half, this day began with everyone talking about the prospect after grand bargain, big deal spending cuts and revenue increases back on the table. now we end the day with no deal being a real possibility. and let's just ignore politics which are huge right now. and look at the substance here. you've got ratings agencies warning about gown downgrading america's credit rating. look what is going on in europe with countries defaulting.

>> take a look at the united states as we face this potential default. >> it comes down to taxes if you spear the speaker come down about it. and that the back and forth negotiations have to do with this attempt by the president to achieve some balance. if there are big spending cuts, there has to be revenue increase as well. there is talk about speaker boehner not being tough enough to stand up to his own republican caucus where there are the likes of leader cantor an others, you know, vying for the speakership. and that he won't bend it that because there are members of his caucus, conservatives, who won't vote on any tax increase period. at the same time democrats worry about the size of the entitlements. this is washington not working. >> david, i heard the president clearly say that of which he was

putting forth was more generous than that. so so-called gang of six. then you hear the speaker say, the white house wanted it raise taxes and were not serious about spending cuts. the american public able to follow along and come to a termination at end as to which side they believe? >> no. these or two behemoths challenging how this is going on we know there were spending cuts being agreed to. there were tax increases, tax reform that would have reresulted in new tax revenue. to help pay for some of it. speaker boehner's aides, talk about how frustrating they were the bang of six proposal. when word started to look out when when were talking about it. if we tar uking about more in terms of spending cuts tax increases have to go as well. that's where things continue to break down.

again the level of optimism that he could sell this thing, that completely vanished by this afternoon when boehner said it won't gaing to happen. the back story here too is string. the president couldn't get his phone calls returned. after they had so much conversation. the president calling last night at 10:00. couldn't reach boehner. finally boehner's office saying well the speaker will call the president at 5:30 and not before them. >> david when i hear something like that, it makes me wonder. is boehner not able to deliver those that he represents or he is the problem or some combination of both? i always wondered if there is a dichotomy between cantor and boehner that will doom this. >> there is tlit cal po posturing going on. what do republicans want? as much as they can get in spending cuts and no tax hikes. that's the price of getting the

debt ceiling raised. they may ultimately get a smaller deal that raises the debt ceiling. maybe you know, boehner seems to -- he denied it there but others have said he wants a shorter term deal. he gets some down pamtsz on spending cuts and comes back over and over again. he wants a grander deal. i don't know how you get to the truth of the matter other than working boem sides and talking to people who are involved. we know for the past two weeks that a grand bargain was actually in the works. there was a combination of tax reform and tax cuts. spending cuts. that melted away. so to your point, could he not sell this? that's still the issue. what we get out of houses and senate and republicans after this have their say within where they passed. cuts and a cap in spending an balanced budget amendment, were

they able to cast the votes they wanted to because it wasn't enough. >> our own norah o'donnell posed the question, something like the tick tock of what had gone on here. i for one would love to know exactly where the break down came. >> those details will come out because both sides have an interest in the details to make their own point. let's bottom line this. if you are seriously injured in the political entry, which we are and that's a big part of the process and break down an trust. there is something very sil significant on the line. there is extreme fail our of leadership on both sides here ton bring a deal to the table. >> it is unclear to me where they go next. do they do a smaller deal? in with other words, less in spending cuts? are tafrm increases taken off the table completely or do they go back to what you call the alamo position here? which is give the president the authority, don't have to cast a vote at all.

you can vote against him getting the authority to raise the debt eelg then how how it gets raised. the marker is monday zmz kelly o'donnell standing by on capitol hill. kelly, tell us what you know. >> reporter: we actually got details in the briefing we mentioned before. we saw speaker there as well. we were told sunday that geithner and the president was there briefly as well, had agreement on this number. and then on monday, they were expecting republicans were expecting to get paper from the house. they said nothing happened. by midday nothing, still nothing. on tuesday, the game the beginning of six reemerged, they told us they heard in a conversation about how targets needed to change. then by wednesday the default mechanism would need to change. by that i mean, what would need to trig ear deal. so eric cantor and john boehner

believed they can sell the deal on taxes when it was a lower tax rate. by expanding what you could tax meaning getting rid of some deductions. when the white house insisted the higher earners would still have to pay at prebush tax cut rates, so there wait rait would be in effect going up from a republican point of view. that's what they couldn't sell. they could sell a change in tax code with you when you talk about the 400 billion that speaker referenced, that is with the term they like it use is job creators. people who hire. that's where they felt they couldn't sell it. in addition they thought if the adult mechanism. thern they are left with the white house getting what it wanted with higher taxes. we couldn't get the spending cuts. so the details fell apart. at least according to the republican take on this. >> i think how many in the house, i think 221, signed

grover norquist's pledge that under no circumstances would they raise taxes. how much came down to he is man ticks of what he he has been saying and how much the bush tax cut would or would not have been. >> in the strictist sense nor quest see # said it would not violate it but when kbou to higher rate that was an increase and that is something very tough for house republicans to sell. changing the rate and bringing down the corporate tax rate and for as you know, the people who pay for their small businesses, on an individual tax rate, that's where republicans are most concerned, they are trying to squeeze that so individuals and corporations paid a closer tafrm rate. they thought that would appear fairer. so the frustration from the republican point of view, having sat through the conversation today, they felt that the speaker felt the goalpost moved.

. it began to crumble according to the republican point of view. we will hear more on how the this was pivotal. monday, nothing from the white house. tuesday started the change wp wednesday there was a turn. that's the way they bring it us to. >> i'm sitting here reflecting on fact it is friday night. the markets won't be open tomorrow. hopefully they will will have something. i'm fearful of the message friday morning if they haven't. >> there is no way washington would have this public fight, this acrimony, playing out on television. at the beginning after trading week as opposed to closed pd and when they had two days no assess whether washington was reengaging or dpog anything serious. you asked a question about whether john boehner can control his caucus.

so far he has. i wrote for national journal last week. there is a fundamental -- speaker ding rich went around the country. using video and tapes. there was tauf toast early on. you can say, you're here because of me. quite differently now michael, many of the freshman, those may be elected one term before that pb look at speaker bane earn say that's a groos roots fire out here. a reaction to republicans. kind of like you. so john boehner, you're a speaker because of us. that's a fundamental difference in the way this conference operates and the limits of speaker boehner's power at times th like this. i'm not saying that is entirely. but he is given -- >> many thanks.

everybody sticking with us. it is an extraordinary night much more on the break douchbt deficit talks. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. somewhere in america, a city comes to life. it moves effortlessly, breathes easily. it flows with clean water. it makes its skyline greener and its population healthier. all to become the kind of city people want to live and work in. somewhere in america, we've already answered some of the nation's toughest questions. and the over sixty thousand people of siemens are ready to do it again. siemens. answers.

i remain confident that we will get an extension of the debt limit and we will not default. i am confident of that. >> that's president obama late today. let's get more now from the white house with nbc's cristin. cristin? >> we are learning more about why the talks broke down. one of the main reasons you heard kelly o'donnell talk about the $400 billion in changes to the tax code, republicans saying the white house moved the goalpost on that $400 billion. white house officials saying that's not the case. saying that was always on the

table. another point they are making, they wanted those changes to the tax code to take effect by about 2013. to do that they really today have triggers to make congress come back to the table to get those changes in order -- and republicans were asking the triggers in the healthcare reform plan date to be passed. democrats wouldn't go along with that. a third thing there was a lot of arguing, a lot of back and forth over how deep the cuts and entitlements should be specifically over pled cade. really those three issues are why the talks broke down. now one more interesting point here, michael, according to the officials, saying that president obama called speaker boehner last night. didn't get a call back. called them again at 3:30 this afternoon and was told he would get a call back at about 5:30 thp p thap 5:30 call is when

speaker boehner called the president and told him he was in fact pulling out of this deal. >> what do we know, if anything, was set in that call? how heated did it get? >> well you heard speaker boehner say that all of their conversations have been cordial. have been respectful. no one was commented specifically on the tone of that call. but we can of course tell you that president seemed quite frustrated. some of the angriest rhetoric we have heard from the president during the entire debt talks. it is safe to assume it was likely heated conversation but again boehner made the point that all of their dialogue has been respectful. with you no doubt, president expressing frustration he didn't get a call back this afternoon and we are now learning he called him last night as well. pliek al? >> cristin cristin welkr thank pup. we pat i thought we saw

quite an exercise of pully pull pet power earlier tonight. john boehner responding in kind p. what are the political optics of this? >> i think the optics and reality of it is we are not able to put humpty dumpty together again in one week. there is no question about that. 9 president of the united states is very political. boehner walked out. he is not going to be able to put a deal together with the senate. so what do we have michael? what is the bottom line? what do we all agree on? we all agree we need the debt ceiling raised for the government country. we don't want default or shut down half of the government one or the other. second thing is we do agree there's got to be major tax cut. or excuse me, spending cuts. those are the only things everyone agrees on. i think we will reach a situation next week where the president of the united states will have to yield and we have to have a short term increase in the debt ceiling of six months or nine nos because you cannot put this complex deal together

again in seven days. >> jonathan cape hart is that what you heard? >> no, what i heard is a president who was really ticked off. a president who is as pat said, you know, trying to do something that's good for the country, for the united states to default on august 2nd would be an unprecedented action that even the markets say they don't know exactly how thing will go. what we saw today, pat might want to call it sabotaging the republicans. it is chief executive staring at the -- going over the water fall. and you know, we are not just talking about raising the debt ceiling and whether to do this short term or long-term. the ratings agencies have made it clear that short term deal is not going to be acceptable to them. s & p has began on record saying this they would like to see a debt ceiling increase and cuts in the range of $4 trillion.

if they don't see that they will consider a downgrade of the united states bond rating. if that happens for the first time in history from triple a to double a that have have severe consequences for the united states. if you are barack obama -- and i also want to say, if you're speaker boehner and senate majority leader reid, mcconnell and cantor, if you are looking that, you have to stop playing political games and stop wet heated rhetoric and get into a room and solve this. >> jonathan, let me follow up with pat for a moment. when you say there is agreement relative it cuts necessary and raising the debt ceiling, i'm not so sure on the second of those. the president made the observation there are some who are ideal ogs in the gop who to them it is just fine. if not only the debt ceiling isn't raise bed through is default as a result. i think that's a mind-set. i know i hear from people who call me everyday. >> i've heard that there are tea party members who simply will not vote to raise the debt ceiling.

i think, in my judgment, after they got their cap and cut, i think that would be responsible. but i do believe that you have to have the debt ceiling raised temporarily. i know what jonathan is saying. but it is an impossibility to see how this deal can be wobbled together, put down on paper, agreed to, and enacted in seven days. if you can't, you don't want to default. you don't want to shut down half the government so you extend the debt ceiling. how do you do that? take cuts that have been agreed upon by joe biden, by the democrats in the senate but republicans in the senate and everyone in the house. a share of those cuts. put them on that debt ceiling and pass it for six months or nine months so you've got time to do something. i know about the ratings agencies but look, you're not going to get the big deal michael. ? one week, deal with it. you cannot make the best, the

enemy of the good. >> does it come down to gop members of the house, all of them who signed norquist's pledge, looking that the saying how can i go home and sell it? isn't it to that constituency that cantor and boehner were looking and recognizing they couldn't get the votes? >> yes. you know and i think if you good on the other end with what we were talking about 24 hours ago michael which is medicare and social securi social secure barack obama putting those on the table, we saw those from congress. so aagree with pat and john than. we are talking about the credibility of the united states. defaulting seems to be not an option. i've always been of the belief, just because i look at it through a political lens, that neither side really wants this because the political consequences, forget the huge economic consequences, the political consequences are too unpredictable. too chaotic. no one whoes who will blame who. the thing i just -- one quick

thing michael. >> quick comment because then i got to break. >> one step back. independents look at this. they are not interested in the details like we are. all they see is washington not being able to get anything done. it is bad for both parties. >> of that mind said, my mantra is one of shared pain. if they can cobble together a video bb and i like express it this way, where everybody has skin in the game, then i think it is saleable. but with the impression the rich are getting a free ride or the defense department, i hear from people who are appalled by the idea we opened 750 plus bases and we keep going a at a time when we can ill afford p tp hold all of your thoughts. the panel is sticking with us. a break down on deficit talks and where we good from here. you are of course watching "hardball" only on msnbc. so me and my lads earned a trip to san francisco twice as fast! we get double miles every time we use our card... i'll take these two...

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the president and i have gotten to know each other pretty well over the course of the last six months, and i can tell you in all of our conversations, they were respectful, they were firm, they were frustrations on both sides, but i don't -- i don't believe that our relationship is permanently damaged. >> that's house speaker, john boehner, after deficit talks with president obama broke down. with us, "the washington post"'s john saliza and patrick buchanan. hey, pat, i want to spend a moment on the democratic side of the aisle, but not the president. crazy day, but much earlier

today, it seemed the impediments putting a deal together might be ds. when they heard reports, it was like mount vesuvius. should we have not taken for granted the president should keep his house in order if we do not put in order the gop? >> this is why i do believe the president has made one retreat after another after to get this deal done, so i don't fault him there, but i think we're being unfair to the republicans, mike. >> how? >> in this sense, they say the tea party is bullying cantor and boehnor. but apparently cantor and boehnor agreed to $800 billion in revenue enhancement down there and were going to make the deal until the president moved the goal posts on them. when you get to the bottom line, we have got to have a debt ceiling increase, and you have

to have budget -- excuse me, yeah, budget cuts, that's what everyone agrees on. get it done, give ourselves some time. >> the polling data that i have seen in the span of the last two weeks shows a fairly significant shift the americans would be willing to go with revenue enhancements, tax increases, if, in fact, there's a shared responsibility. >> that's what has been said for months now. they recognize the problems the country is facing, they recognize everyone has to be a part of it and everyone has to sacrifice. the problem is down here in washington, the folk who is need to get that done, aren't getting it done and continue to play games. look, michael, we're between two very difficult places right now. we either default or get a downgrade by the ratings agencies which will become a tax increase on the american people. boehnor and the president are not going to let default happen,

so now what we're faced with is being in the good graces of s&p and moody's and fitch, that would ultimately be devastating to this already struggling economic recovery. >> pat, i think the pollices of this thing, not to exclude chris, but the politics are those entrenched against the president and the rest of the country, 20% or so, trying to figure out who's being reasonable in this. what's the answer in that question? >> well, you might say -- first, i think the president is being intransigent in saying i will not take a short-term debt increase in the debt ceiling, but you might say the republicans are being intransigent. let me make a case for the republicans. not a, they made a promise and commitment. michael, i don't know the economic theory, we are the economy flat on its back with an

unemployment rate at 16%, you start hammering businesses and individuals with tax hikes. i don't understand the economic theory. that's one reason republicans are opposing it. they don't think it will be good for the major job, which is getting the economy going again. >> jonathan and quickly to chris. >> really fast. if i remember correctly, these revenue enhancements, tax increases, wouldn't come right now. they'd be set to go into effect later on past the presidential year, isn't that correct? >> i think that's true. >> major garrett mentioned this earlier, i think it's hard. we never had anything to look at. reports of the deal with greatly exaggerated. obviously, jonathan, i can't answer the question, we don't know what that leaves us with, unfortunately if barack obama's side of the story of what went wrong and john boehner's side of

the story of what went wrong. the 20% is on every issue. they are the people who decide elections, and i hate to sound like a ringing clock, but they are the people who are going to look at all this back and forth and say washington is broken. i'll point out 80% of people in a poll that came out earlier this week, 80% of people said they were angry or dissatisfied with how washington is working. highest number since 1992. >> i don't see any winners in this. nobody is coming out of this looking good, but those folks trying to do an assessment of who's trying to make it work, they are going to hear the president say i was prepared to make a imbalanced deal. >> michael, we know the president, we know that's the case. look, barack obama can have a press conference every single day between now and the deal or now and august 2nd, it's going to get huge amounts of coverage. john boehner, less so.

that's the power of the president. go to '95, 1996, you have a level of power to communicate with the american public, particularly when you're a good communicator like barack obama, you have the power a house speaker lasts. >> pat, take the final thought. >> but also, the republicans are asking, they said the president did not produce any pieces of paper about what he was going to do. that's a good question, where is the white house paper proposals that they made to the republicans? >> they said they were going to release it. you heard the response by the president, he said he'd release the paper trail that would show the deal. i want to see it. >> well, this is what -- boehnor said -- after he'd make these afr offers, he never gave us a piece of paper. >> jonathan capehart, quickly, final thoughts? >> look, i can't wait to see -- like you, michael, i can't wait to see the paper, to read the paper t