anchor the special coverage here live on msnbc. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. "hardball" starts right now. it's jul25th. do you know where your debt ceiling is? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews. down in washington, leading off tonight, bad behavior. i've long understood the two parties have different roles to play. democrats focus on the needs of people, health care, the challenges of getting old, urgency of keeping poor people up to some basic level of human existence. republicans focus on, well, the punishment of criminals. a beefy defense policy. lower taxes. fair enough. our country makes it. we decide things out of this

back and forth advocacy. whose turn is, noisy democracy at work.ç now a level to one side of this argument right now that's negative, nasty, out of hand. it's threatening to destroy and behaving like the little rich kid who wants to leave the game, take his ball and go home. remember that kid? it's my ball and i want to go home. he's grown up now and says it's my money, and i want to go home and i want it all. is it really the main purpose of the united states government now to cut taxes on the wealthy? is that the purpose of government? not to deal with the fact half our kids are not graduating from high school, and allowing emerging countries in the world to compete. it the purpose of this country of federal government tone sure the wealthy get the largest possible per percentage of growth? is that the purpose of society?

make sure the people with money keep as much as possible? i don't think the overwhelming number of americans think it is so. i think people are a lot more enlightened than that, and they need to speak up. we have a debt crisis, and we need to meet it. if the president's willing to put medicare and social security on the table, how can anyone stand up and say hands off taxes, hands off my loopholes, hands off my stuff. i'm bringing this country down and then i'm going home. we begin with the debt standoff and the duelling reid and boehner plans. we learned president obama will go on television to speak to the nation at 9:00 p.m. we'll carry it here on msnbc. and the huffington post media director and david corn. washington bureau chief, both msnbc political analysts. howard, you first. take your time here. it does seem to me we've got two plan on the table. one is basically the same old same old republican plan. now a two-step plan. get to it in a minute. boehner's a watered down version what they sort of agree on

without any tax increases of any kind.ç the democrats are on their knees to try to make a deal here. they're getting closer and closer, genuflecting the republican side. no taxes, spending cuts only. the way the republicans wanted. why not a deal? >> well, the republicans don't want a deal. they'd rather have the fight than the deal and the president is in the posture and he's going to be in it tonight at 9:00 of trying to say, look. they won't even accept the deal on their terms. >> he's genuflecting. >> genuflecting to try to make a political point. which is that the republicans are only in it to make him look bad. to create chaos in the market. to undercut the economy. >> you really believe that they know the danger we're facing on the world market? >> that the republicans do? >> yeah. they know -- >> no. they don't necessarily believe it. what i'm saying, the president was ready to genuflect, take taxes out of the so-called reid plan, the harry reid plan, which the white house approved of, by

the way. harry reid didn't put that out, i was told this afternoon, obviously without the support of the white house. he checked with the white house before he did it. now the president's going on the air tonight and push the reid plan, which has no revenues or taxes in it. he's genuflecting giving up all the political points to be able to make the spin doctor's point that it's the republican's who are being -- >> legitimately. real, not p.r. look at the replay quickly. one step raises the debt ceiling to the 2012 elections and helps the president, includes cuts but nothing to entitlements, and savings in part from ending the wars eventually in iraq and afghanistan, about a trillion there. highly questionable. speaker boehner's plan has two steps in it. totals $1.2 trillion in cuts. has a six to nine month debt ceiling and cuts and another debt ceiling mechanism next year

sometime.ç david, seems like the president is basically saying all i want, get this out of the way before the incomes election. in that interest i'll give you what you want, basically? >> the democrats, without, and republican. s have drawn a line in the sand. problem is, it's inside it's republican tent. it's basically up to the bedroom. saying, we'll given you cuts, and part of reid's plan is $1.2 trillion in defense and non-defense discretionary cuts. we don't know what the cuts will be. may be real cuts in real problems, that the president and other democrats care a lot about. they have basically yielded to republicans on a big conceptual point. linking, lifting the debt ceiling to spending cuts and -- >> two things republicans still want. a dollar for dollar cut in spending to match a debt ceiling increase and a trigger mechanism for a balanced budget amendment. holding out ideologically. speaker boehner when asked about the reid plan earlier. let's listen.

>> i believe that the plan is full of gimmicks. we're not making any real changes in the spending structure of our government, and it doesn't deal with the biggest drivers of our deficit and our debt, and that would be entitlement programs. >> the republicans-- >> they're not touching that either. putting it to the side now. >> how can he say that, then? >> they have forgotten the number one rule of hostagetaking. when the other sides gives into your demands you let the hostage go. i don't think they're interested in doing that. at least 100 members on the house republican side want to blow up the economy because they think they will save the economy. >> and they're certainly willing to risk a worldwide explosion at our expense. >> yes. >> in terms of the markets around the world. never know which day they're going south on us, but also they want something else.ç this second attack next year. >> that's what this is all about. at least that's what speaker

boehner is trying to do. he's speaking -- he was speaking right there to the tea party republicans essentially saying, okay. we're not giving you the cut, cap and balance thing. we're not giving you that set of gimmicks, but don't worry, folks. we're going to force the president to go through this whole debt ceiling thing again next spring, just as the presidential campaign is gathering steam. >> picking a candidate. >> right. that's how we're going to try to satisfy you members of the tea party. we're offering you that plus no revenues. >> plus votes on the balanced budget amendment, too. >> somehow. >> so next year will be devoted to arguing over that, arguing over the debt ceiling again. >> here's a country, ours. >> yes. >> republican, democrat and independent, instead ever focusing on the fact haft of kids don't graduate high school, our future, an infrastructure that's crumbling and the government has a role behind national defense and cutting taxes it has a role. we don't talk about the role of government anymore. just cutting taxes and debt control. that's all we do anymore.

>> chris, did anyone mention the word jobs today? >> that's a question, too. >> that's the other thing. where are the jobs? for either side we've gotten off on the track of deficit reduction over everything else. >> here's my question, more fundamental, getting to that point. i want to bring this back home. you guys both know a lot about economics. it's simply this. if we had the balanced budget amendment now, nirvana, basically reducing government to 20% of gdp. cutting it from 37.75 positive 3.0. the difference. a lot less government spending. do they believe a lot less government spending now would be good for the economy? do they believe their own solution would be good for the economy? >> they believe it. the hard core of the republican party believes it. >> they do?ç >> but most of the rest of the world does not. >> yeah. >> that in the recessionary time, which we are still in, with unemployment the way it is subpoena manufacturing regaining some strength but still

uncertain, with demand being down overall, consumer demand being down, don't withdraw hundreds of billions of dollars out of the economy at that time. i mean, that's what drove the president to propose the stimulus they at the beginning. that's what kept him from attempting to raise taxes and from accepting the bush tax cuts earlier on as way to stimulate the economy, and that ends up putting the president in a difficult position politically now to try to raise taxes. >> let me ask you, howard, is it possible that the republicans are up to here, i hear this from people around on the progressive side. you hear it. you're on the progressive side. is it possible, besides what we're engaged in, talk i believe in -- some are willing to see this country get burned in the butt, really hit by the world market, really see spiking interest rates, see a drop in our bond rating, hellacious stuff, so they can make their point? not at all willing to avoid that at the quest of their own ideology? >> i think in -- >> do you believe that for some of them? >> some fear or suspect that. the reality is there are people

who don't believe in reality. they don't want to listen to people in the government or people on wall street. we know better. we tighten our belts when things go bad, government la to do the same. i think we're -- ron paul said this just today. the past few days. we should default. default would be good for america. put us back on the gold standard. whatever he believes. there are people who do believe you've got to burn the village to save the village. >> and part of this doesn't believe in science or human history or global climate. nothing. ç >> what's going on here as i see it is a kind of slow motion secession. this is -- this is an ending of the social expect. this is two, three generations worth of agreement about social security, about medicare, about the role of the federal government. the tea party people are saying, we want to secede from that society. and the way to do it is to draw the line on spending and taxes,

staff the federal government so it loses power, so that we aren't part of the social compact anymore. that's the real argument that's going on, and the congress is an institution, as an institution, is incapable of deal wig that kind of fundamental argument, give the entitlement age and welfare state age, why you have the super committees and super duper committees and the smaller and smaller ring of people attempting to decide something. >> this sounds like -- i spent two years in southern africa. sounds like what the whites talked about doing. eventually going into some circle, like custard's last stand against the united states i. wouldn't put a racial tone ton but i would say the congress is not deal wig the fundamental question here. they refuse to do it. and they're not deal wig it now, because both -- because both bills, both plans, both the boehner plan and the reid plan don't deal with either entitlements or taxes. >> the guy emerging at the top republican name year hearing these days? rick perry. who actually does talk about withdrawing from the federal

government. for the unity of the country. going back into the area where i'll keep my money in the bank. i want lower tax rates. no -- >> tea party people would say, and i've been to their rallies and spoken to a lot of them in congress and out, that they're being driven to this by the overruling role of the government, total tax burden, state, county, federal is so life, et cetera, it's a desire to withdraw from a deal they think has ggtuen out of hand, that they can't control, even though generations of republicans as well as democrats have benefited from the results of the welfare states. >> right. that's a hell of an article, and statement. that's a book. >> wish i'd written it before i said it on air. >> withdrawing money from the bank, more like withdrawing money from america. i'm pulling out my investment in america and home schooling, all what people are doing to get away. >> talking about competing visions of society. the president made this point. when he cut the tax cut deal in

september, he was setting hills himself up for this battle. >> who's winning? last word. >> the american people are losing. >> republicans winning. the president trying to get ahead of it, he's not ahead of it. >> who's winning? >> republicans controlled agenda. >> in their own tent. the line drawn. you made the metaphor. anyways, thank you. howard. >> sure thing. >> pretty good line. the line in the sands with the republican tent. we'll hear more from president obama tonight at 9:00. right to the heart of this fight and talk to a tea party member of the united states senate from utah. on why they won't compromise. you're watching "hardball." only on msnbc. introducing the schwab mobile app. it's schwab at your fingertips wherever, whenever you want. one log in lets you monitor all of your balances and transfer between accounts, so your money can move as fast as you do. check out your portfolio, track the market with live updates. and execute trades anywhere and anytime the inspiration hits you.

even deposit checks right from your phone. just take a picture, hit deposit and you're done. open an account today and put schwab mobile to work for you. the fight over the deficit and debt has driven both parties to record levels of disapproval.

55% have a negative opinion after republican party. that's a new cnn poll. that's the second highest number in nearly 20 years. the all-time high, 57% when bill clinton was in office. less than that bad. 49% have a negative view in the democratic party matching the record high from september of last year. we'll be right back.

your last offer, a billion dollars in new revenue and entitlement cuts, spending cuts, that's still on the table. >> still on the table. they know what my last offer was, but, again, i think a better path forward at this moment would be to work with my bipartisan congressional leaders and my republican colleagues in the house to put together a process that's doable. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was speaker of the house jane boehner telling fox news sunday chris wallace as far as he's concerned the cut, cap and balance proposal is still up for

negotiation but will boehner be able to appease tea party members in both houses with his latest proposal? joining us now, utah u.s. senator mike lee and a founding member of the founding tea party caucus. thank you for joining us, senator. this fight, where do you see this going by the end of the week? i'm concerned, i am concerned you're not going to make deal in the next couple of day. are you concerned about the clock and the fact of, or the possibility, the strong wind of a default? >> i'm absolutely very concerned about the possibility of this passing the august 2nd deadline without raising the debt limit. that's why after six months of talking about this a few weeks ago i finally filed legislation to address the problem. the cut, cap and balance act which proposes to raise the debt limit by $2.4 trillion. it passed in house with bipartisan support. when it got to the senate, harry reid and the democrats refused to allow debate, discussion or amendments. this isn't the process as it's supposed to work. we are open to compromise and

negotiation, but for that to happen we need to have legislation that can actually move through and be subjected to great discussion. >> let's check your facts. the house vote on cut, cap and balance? you have 240 republican member. i only have 234 votes. what's the bipartisan thing you're talking about? i didn't see that there? let's call it what it is. don't start with nonsense. a party house vote. fair enough. your party controls the house. your party passed it. it wasn't bipartisan. >> there's five democratic votes. that's bipartisan. >> you're talking to the american people on my show trying to tell me this horse and rabbit stew of 240, 5 of democrats is a bipartisan vote? anybody watching knows that's malarkey. >> look, we can argue about the meaning of -- >> speak english here. do you believe it was a bipartisan vote in the house? start with the facts? was it or was it not a bipartisan vote in the house on your cut, cap and balance?

l support of five democrat. we can argue about the significance of that. my point, this is the only piece of legislation anyone proposed that's made it anywhere in congress to raise the debt limit. i'm saying we are trying to do this. we cannot be accused, we as republicans, of simply wanting for the deadline to arrive without us raising the debt limit. we tried to do something about it. that process was halted. it was stopped cold in the senate by those unwilling to acknowledge or come to terms with the fact the american people by a margin of 66%, by cnn, support the principles of a cut, cap and balance plan. >> talk about the three thing ice think have been most disputed and become ideological. one the need, the democratic argument that needs revenues increased. you say no to that and it must include a sufficient amount of spending cuts to match the debt ceiling increase. fair enough. and then say, must include some measure deal wig a balanced

budget amendment. the problem with your proposal which passed the house with 234 votes and the problem with the democratic party is basically that requires the enactment of rather the sending to the states by two-thirds vote of both houses a balanced budget amendment before you increase the debt ceiling. do you realize what a monstrous, major stark decision you're asking the congress to make before they even pass a debt ceiling increase? do you think that's reasonable? >> yes, chris, and it is a monstrous issue. >> and by both houses for a change in our constitution as a prerequisite just to raise the debt creeling? >> yes, because it is a monstrous situation we're deal wig. i don't dispute not raising it would cause problems. one of the things that's gotten too little play, the fact ç raising it without adequate permanent structural binding, mechanisms in place, could also cause problems. look at the warnings we've

received from moody's and standard & poor's. talking not just about the failure to raise the debt limit in tine, but the failure to address the underlying problem. we believe the identifying conditions we put in place in cut, cap and balance are the right conditions. now, if the democrats in the senate don't agree, we can and should bring that up in the debate process and have a healthy open amendment process in the senate for a compromise. instead a small handful from both legislative parties, cook up a deal, brought forward at the last possible hour extorting members of congress and the american people into is a sorting it at the last minute. >> leave this vote up to the 80 or so tea party freshmen, no deal. they would insist on your terms. he doesn't want a compromise. >> we're the only people who offered terms. >> you don't want to compromise. what good is a proposal -- where's the compromise? >> that is nonsense. >> where are you willing to compromise? on the balanced budget, on revenue, willing to compromise on the left of spending cuts? where are you willing to compromise?

tell me where? >> i would say yes in all of those thing. yes, in the sense we're willing to consider different balance budget amendment proposals and open to different negotiations, positions as far as the amount of immediate cuts and statutory spending caps we have to have in addition to the fact that so far was in and of itself a massive compromise. difficult to convince this many republicans in both houses to get on board with the idea to raise it's obama debt limit. >> and this -- what you just said -- >> guess it when bush was requesting a -- >> you know what you just said, a, willing to compromise, insist a balanced budget cuts and no new revenues. that's not compromise. no. with those parameter, then ç you're not negotiating. >> i am, these are the -- >> democrats don't agree. so can you reach a compromise? >> nonsense. we have 23 democrats in the senate who have said repeatedly that they support a balanced budget amendment. we don't yet have consensus on who supports which plan, that's why we need debate and discussion.

i've been talking about this for six months and filed in bill in type for discussion, shut down by the democrats in the senate. >> let me ask an ideological question. the one out on the table, 20% of gdp spending cap basically reaching at some point 20% and then in two-thirds requirement on revenue increase. do you like that idea? is that your proposal? >> yes i do. i've proposed it and -- >> if you do it that way, right now, a $15 trillion gdp. right now spending $3.75. that reduces it to $3.0. would that reduction in federal spending at this point now, if this thing of yours, this mechanism in effect now would be good for the economy? a cut of spending, $750 billion, would that be good right now? >> no, chris, if you read our legislation you would know that this is not what it would do. the balanced budget amendment. >> of course i read it. >> it would take many years to implement. two or three years to ratify and five years. >> i know. but if it were in effect now, this nirvana, 20% gdp percentage

going to federal spending and a requirement of two-thirds vote in the house and the senate to get it, a tax increase works that be good for the economy if it were in effect now? i'm asking you, in effect now as it reaches fruition, it would be good for the country to be strapped into a position, except for terrorism, you guys see as a likely point or likely need to change, everything is locked in? is it good now? to be locked in? that's what you want to do. strapped into a $750 billion spending cut or not? that's what you're pushing and insisting as the absolute requirement or no debt ceiling increase. we need this balanced budget amendment? >> to be phased in gradually over the course of several years. ç >> if it was phased in now, would it be good for the country? >> no. we're not suggesting that. >> that answers your question why a democrat might oppose it. wherever you go, that's where you'll be. remember the rule? correct me. you're -- >> let me answer your question.

>> you answer inconsistently. you're saying bipartisan support from the house turns out it's horse and rabbits, too, of 5 democrats, 230 republicans. you're not willing to compromise on a debt balanced budget or revenues and not consistent in what you're saying. play this tape back in your head hurts and you're not being consistent here, sir. >> i'm open to compromise on the details of an amendment. open positive compromise on the size of cuts. you're using a red herring saying that -- >> no. you are setting standard for what you accept the -- >> what's wrong with setting a standards? if we had standards years ago we wouldn't be in this mess. we're $15 trillion in debt. >> how many days do we having on the outside to get this debt ceiling through before there's a problem? how many days? >> i don't know. maybe ten days. >> so in ten days want to change the united states constitution by two-thirds vote in both houses? that's what you're demanding?

>> if possible, we can't change the constitution just in congress, but can submit it to the states. >> two-thirds vote, and you think you're being reasonable saying you want a two-thirds vote in the house which is democrat, republican and the senate which is democrat. you want the democratic senator by two-thirds vote to pass a constitutional amendment or you want the house to come down? >> yes, that's exactly what i'm saying and saying it six months since the day i was sworn in. >> you can call it everything you want. what you can't call that, a compromise. >> okay. that's great to know, but, look, the bottom line is, we have to change the way, fundamentally and permanently in a binding fashion the way washington spends money. >> okay. >> there is no way we can afford this. >> i'm not saying my way or theç highway. i'm saying with certain parameters there's room for negotiation. now, you will not, may or play may not agree on the general parameters. but with the general parameters i'm willing to compromise and open to negotiation.

you may not like that because you might not like my parameters but i'm telling you, i'm been elected to the united states senate and this is what i'm willing to go for. now, if you move to utah you don't have to vote for me next time, but this is what the voters are telling me overwhelmingly. >> utah's a great state. i love utah. thank you very much for coming on. >> come to utah. we'd love to have you. >> i'll go out and ski with you. >> thank you. up next, donald trump is flirting with a president's run. advice for the candidates already running. that's ahead in the "sideshow." [ female announcer ] experience dual-action power,

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seven-day event of mob movies like "the godfather" and "scarface ". giuliani will emcee the whole thing. it could remind us of his success against organized crime in the 80s. remember the pizza connection? and donald trump, i have to say, trying to gain hype if he is planning to run in 2012. up next -- donald trump has taken his name out of the running for president as a gop candidate in 2012, she making his way back into the public eye, dispensing advice to one of the 2012 candidates. hoop the lucky recipient this time? tim pawlenty. listen to what donald has to say to him on fox this morning. >> now, the problem with pawlenty, he's trying to be a tough guy. he's trying to be a tough guy but he's not. you can't be something that you're not. >> wow. can't be something you're not. words of wisdom coming from donald trump, who's now floating the notion of a third party candidacy for president for himself. up next, a dismal state of the republican presidential field.

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hello, i'm page hopkins, here's what's happening. the man who confessed to killing 76 people in norway pled not guilty today. saying he did it to save europe from a muslim takeover. nfl players voted unanimously to approve a new contract agreement bringing an ento a 4 1/2 month lockout. the hotel maid accused strauss-kahn of sexual assault is talking about the alleged attack saying he was naked when he grabbed her and hit her against a wall in bamg room.

mexican pa pie yaes are the likely sickened people. the you a top sievp the death of amy winehouse was inconclusive. a further toxicology report will take weeks it complete. now back it "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." as we inch closer to the iowa straw poll this august -- coming up. august 13th, i believe. the republican presidential field is as long as ever but no closer to generating enthusiasm as seen in elections past. how has the gop not found a compelling candidate for all of those donors and they're base out there? michael steele, former chair of the republican committee and now an msnbc political analyst and well received. and working out of the center nor american progress, thank you

both. let's look at numbers, both of you, michael and jennifer. according to "the washington post," 54% of republicans are satisfied with their 2012 candidates. 38% are not happy. compare that to four years ago, two in three satisfied with the field. not so today. look at the latest "wall street journal" numbers. mitt romney holds the lead, 30%, followed by michele bachmann, gaining steam along with rick perry moving up. he's yet to announce, of course. in third place already. let's go to the republican first. michael steele. you've got a 9.2%. i spent time with republicans as you do, and i feel they really want change. they really want a republican to win next year but don't have one. they don't got one. >> well, they certainly don't have anyone who is stoked the base, if you will. who's really provided that shot in the arm that sort of says, i'm the guy, or gal, who's going

to take this train all wait through. and win next year. i think that's been absent for some time. it's had an effect on the way ç you organize your campaign. it's had an effect on the money you're going to raise and we've seen whether you're talking mitt romney, even michele bachmann who's come in with a lot of pizazz and punch, the numbers are falling short of the expectations, falling short of the bar. now, a lot of that will turn around once you get past -- a willowing out for that straw poll, but it's not going to be enough, certainly, chris, i think, before january. you're going to have to -- somebody's going to have to break this thing open. one or two of them will really have to define themselves to galvanize the big money and galvanize the grass roots to get behind them. >> we love michele bachmann here because we sort of created her. >> you haven't said that for a while. >> some fascinating comments made over the years, et cetera by democrats, behaving as she does. >> thank you. >> she'd be great sport and a great show for the country.

i don't think she'll ever be elected president, but who knows. my question, august 13th is coming fast. i don't think she's going to win the straw vote. i don't think she's organized. the headache problem she's been having, will that take the spin and excitement level away from what's been a very exciting entry into this race? her? >> i mean -- i'm a democrat but i can recognize talent and i don't see a lot of talent in this field. i don't see a lot are -- >> what about her? she's talented? >> she's interesting, compelling, but not a great -- i don't think she's a great candidate and i think we had a big boom around her and i would keep my eye on tim pawlenty who might be more of a herring towards this kinds of thing. >> he's certainly a tortoise. geez, i mean, he's a slow mo. i mean -- >> he's, but he's been building. >> something, michael -- >> who do you think? >> i'm having fun. >> she will not -- ç >> less pizazz, seems like a nice gentleman, a good public

servant. michael, the idea of him zooming to the country's attention and standing up against the president of united states, one of the most skilled around, no charisma compared to all charisma? can you go up against a candidate like that? >> you don't know what the dynamics will play out to be. certainly i've seen tim pawlenty in close quarters do pretty good things in terms of the crowd and motivating and moving a crowd. what i like to see is to have that demonstrated now so you get that feel and get that juice going so that you can be prepared to go up against a barack obama, who is going to be very, very formidable. >> and the story out there, he's himself, like unleash chiang kai-shek, or a formosa. all of a sudden a superman ripping off the shirt, in comes the bill p. and he comes flying out. that's what the word is. let himself be unrestrained. what do you think of that? >> chris, you've didn't

campaigns, been around them and having worked on the hill, there's an institutionalization that begins when you run for the presidency. that encapsulates you. they want him to let loose, be himself instead of a formal candidate. >> he's been running a long time and can't say on the obama cam. says it once, not a second time. there's a guy that attracts attention authentic or not. former governor bush from florida. she smart guy, work, hurricanes and stuff like that. just a smart ideologue, asked will he or won't he again last night on my friend sean hannity's show on fox. let's listen. >> i don't anticipate that.ç you never say never. this is, this is a standard answer i've learned how to give, which is, you never say never, but i've never ruled out being on "dancing with the stars" either.

so, you know -- the eight ball i have in my desk that i use to make the big decisions when i was governor says, not so good. but there are a lot of ways you can make a difference. >> hoss cartwright. looking like hoss cartwright. >> he is. >> nothing wrong with that. >> he's good. forget the ideology or politics. has he got the stuff to be a candidate? >> i think he's very talented. he scares me more than anybody else, but we are not going let the bush in 2012, it's not going to happen. >> why? >> it's just not going to happen. >> given a breather? >> it can't happen. >> i agree. but i think -- i think jeb is the stocking horse for 16. he is very, very good. he's an excellent governor. phenomenal job turning florida around. and can pull the party in the direction it needs to go to a deal with a new 21st century america which is going to be largely minority.

majority/minority. it's going to be very diverse. not just in its ethnicity but in philosophies, political views and jeb brings that kind of feel to the table. i think people respond to. that's down the road a bit. folks are sitting there waiting to see what mr. perry does out of texas. governor of texas and, of course, the big p. still waits to see what happens with sarah palin. >> funny, if were you from another planet, mike, you notice that the people are heavy set. the bigger people like jeb, and like certainly haley barbour my pal.ç and chris christie. heavy set guys, using the right terms, aren't running. the skinny minis are running. i don't know what that's about. must be politically correct to be skinny these days. i appreciate your -- up next, the gunman in those horrific attacks in norway says he wanted to take his country back for the muslims and immigrants, blaming liberals for pushing

multiculturalism. a very sensitive topic. let's look at the state of right wing extremism in europe. this is "hardball" only on msnbc. >> ( rooster crows ) >> by 2020, 50 billion network devices will roam the earth. that's seven devices per person. this will change how we work in ways we've never before imagined. what do you need to secure your people, their devices, and your business? a network that can evolve and grow to protect your human network. i know you're worried about making your savings last

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welcome back to "hardball." no norway, 100,000 health a vigil to mourn the people killed in a massacre in a summer camp and bombing outside an oslo government building. this morning, breivik appeared in court pleading guilty to the murders and saying in court in his 1500 page manifesto, his goal, save europe in muslim immigration and influence. brian levin from the study of height and extremism. i used the phrase earlier in the program about a different topic. if you came from another planet and tried to explain the horror this past weekend, how would you explain the motivation behind it? >> well, in a couple ways.

first we have to look at the idiosyncratic. a person who considered himself a warrior. folks who have prejudices, consider themselves warriors, themselves warriors will stop at nothing, but i think there's something else, and i think what he's hit on, he's struck a vein throughout europe, and that is this tremendousç growth in islamaphobia in muslim populations throughout europe, which is much more significant there than it is throughout the united states. >> let's talk about the real anxieties of the general population and the measure he took of horror here. what is the general public concern in europe whose roots go back in europe a opposed to a

immigrant? >> great question. first of all, let's look at norway in particular. norway is projected to have about a 150% increase in muslim population in the next 20 years. we're talking about countries particularly small and homogeneous. now coming home to roost politically of several things, the at least the political collapse, if you will, of the european union. the european union exists, but there's growing disdain for this borderless continental identity. in addition, we have economic issues, we have what's considered a loss of national identity, a loss of sovereignty, the demographics that i spoke of where these precipitous increase in populations to relatively small countries that here before were homogenous, which are

affecting a whole continent, which are trying to bail these countries out. >> let me get back to something that doesn't resinate here. america, i've always argued, we grew up in world war ii,ç ever war movie it's always had the pretty boy, then the italian guy, the jewish guy, didn't have the black guy in uniform in that fighting unit integrated. he didn't get ahead as fast, but everybody benefitted from winning world war ii, melting pot and reality. but the idea of being an american was to be one of these several groups that were fighting on our side. there's never been an experience in europe to bring people together, has there? these people are brought in for cheap labor or technical skill, but nothing compelled yunification, no sense of common fear or effort. >> i think you're right. closest we got was the european union, but look, we saw angela

merkel back in october saying multi-culturalism has failed. we invited these people in, now we have to keep them. this is something present throughout europe, and the percentages over the next decades will show countries previously homogenous, here it's about 2% to 3%. i'm not advocating islam phobia, but i'm saying we look at it more in a question of national security -- talking about people -- >> quick question, only have a minute. who's fault is it? will the danish, norwegians, swedes, will they allow it to occur? who's fault is it they are not becoming norwegian when they arrive there after a few years?

>> i think it's both. we have insular communities in europe, but you have people caught in the middle who happen to be muslim. we have economic and demographic influences as well as the fact people are seeing what they consider their heritage and culture being stripped away and acting out in extremist fashion because there's no way to ease this in. >> i wish the leaders will be leaders. thank you so much, brian. anyway, thank you so much for coming on. when we return, let me finish with why barack obama should make bill clinton treasury secretary. announcer ] anan anthis...is the netwo. a living, breathing intelligence that's helping drive the future of business. in here, inventory can be taught to learn. ♪ machines have a voice. ♪ medical history follows you. it's the at&t network -- a network of possibilities...

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let me finish tonight with an idea. it's a bigger one than usual, because in many ways it's a lifesaver. bill clinton, secretary of the treasury. let me give you the case, although merely the thought is enough to make that case. the former president spends an hour of a day right now trying to face the challenges of our country and a world. he does this realizing the old campaign slogan of his, "it's the economy, stupid" is more vital than ever. before there was the disastrous bush policies that brought us the catastrophes of 2008, we saw daylight. we had new products out there. people wanted to buy them, we

had new jobs, 23 million in the '90s. and we had hope. bring it back. with bill clinton the treasury and hillary clinton still at state, president obama would be in sterling shape to hold the democrats next time and bring confidence to the political middlemen, perhaps, given the weak republican lineup. i recommend this appointment for the reason the country needs a strong economic spokesman who can translate the complicated economy into words and experiences that the average american can grasp. before we can recover, before we can find confidence to act, we need to know what we're facing, what we're overcoming, what our strengths are, and how we can succeed. one person that has the brains, the political moxy and the charm, let's bring back bill and put him atç treasury, where everything he's done, learned, and achieved will work for him, the country, and our children's