net wirth. you won't have much self-worth even if you do get a job. >> because of the disintegration. >> what you said, you can't focus just on one thing. >> great to see pup looking forward to seeing you again soon. >> good show. >> at your service. check him out online. i'm dylan ratigan and "hardball's" up right now. right wing dictatorship. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight -- the republicans on the surgery of vi verge of victory. looks as if the tea party already won. last night president obama argued the wealthy should be asked to pay their fair share in taxes, but taxes aren't even in the boehner plan, and they aren't in the reid plan. it's all spending cuts. and there's serious talk about a

short-term deal eric cantor would force the president to debate entitlements, taxes and spending all over again in six months. what exactly has president obama won in return? plus, watching the obama/boehner face-off last night it was lard to believe what we watching. the republicans are on the brink ever winning the battle in which the very rich will be asked to contribute nada. nothing. and everything else will be asked to contribute everything. how did we get here? also, silence of the lambs. where are the republican candidates for president? michele bachmann, of course, mindlessly doesn't want the debt ceiling increased under any circumstance. other than that, where is everybody? and we learn today no group has been hit harder by the recession that continues than latinos or also may be the most important voting block for president obama come next november. can you hold them as things get worse? finally, finish tonight with a way out of the debt showdown. we start with the debt fight

itself. jay carney, white house press secretary, joins us right now. thank you for joining us. seems to me you watched the fighting. the republicans under boehner was a two-round fight, a second fight during the president's year next year and over the debt ceiling next time. president wants to have it all out now. is that the difference? >> i think it's the difference, although i view it a little differently. the reason why we believe and the president believes so strongly that we have to extend the debt ceiling, increase our borrowing authority for a significant amount of time is because it creates this cloud over the economy. it creates uncertainty, and as any businessman will tell you, or businesswoman, uncertaintisy a drag on the economy. it forces businesses to make decisions that inhibit growth, inhibit job creation and we can't have that, and if you

think this situation that we've seen in these last several weeks have been chaotic and cast doubt on whether or not the united states will for the first time in history fail to live up to its obligations, imagine what it will be like in six or eight or ten months if we go through this again. the president thinks that's bad for the economy. it's not about politics. it's bad for the economy. the american people overwhelmingly support higs approach, a balanced approach. democrats, independents, even republicans by large majority supports the approach he has put forward. >> so if it comes down to it, sometime sunday morning at 4:00 in the morning, and he's handed a bill that says, we have to go after this again with some kind of mechanism next year, six ins fro now, he will veto? >> we've made clear, the president's made clear, the chief of staff daley made clear, we issued, recommendation to

veto a specific bill the speaker's put forward, should it get to his desk, but that's a moot point. that bill will not get through the senate. we believe senator reid, the majority leader said it will not pat pass the senate. it's irrelevant. we are in a stalemate. that's the fact. that's why the president spoke to the american people last night to explain where we are and why we need to break that stalemate. break the log jam and willingness on both sides to reach compromise. accept you're not going to get your maximalist and do it for the american people. >> right now it looks you've lost on the issue of revenue. not even the democrats in the senate are pushing for a revenue hike. >> i disagree with that. >> you're still fighting that fight? >> look, the big grand bargain is still on the table. that deal is there if the speaker wants to return to the table and negotiate it. we came very close. the president and the speaker did. and that opportunity still exists. secondly, the helpful proposal senator reid put out does not

include up front the tough issues of entitlement reform or tax reform, it creates a committee that would look at those issues on a fast-track basis by the end of the year. that's not possible, we prefer one that does it all at once. however this turns out if we don't get the tough issues addressed because they're essential to address the deficits and long-term debt we're going to return to the debate. the public support balanced approach. it's not the right way to do this if we don't ask sacrifice from everybody. not one sctd sector 0 a limited number of sectors from the society. >> last night it was said, voice support for a bipartisan deal. let's listen. >> the american people may have voted for divided government, but they didn't vote for a dysfunctional government. so i'm asking you all to make your voice heard. if you want a balanced approach to reducing the deficit, let your member of congress know.

if you believe we can solve this problem through compromise, send that message. >> is boehner being pulled down by his right wing? is that the white house view? >> well, look. we certainly believe while we're not, probably, the best experts on house republican politics, it's evident that there is a faction with the house republican conference that is a, basically no compromise faction. we don't think that's where the american people are. we believe that the president and the speaker came a long way towards reaching the kind of bipartisan compromise that could achieve significant deficit reduction in a balanced way and we believe that that opportunity still exists, if there's a willingness to accept that we are associated with it, but not every republican will vote for it, just like not every democrat will vote for it. you know how this work, the kind of compromises the fred preside willing to achieve something here and that will exact

political pain. he's willing to do it because he feels that's what the american people are insists he does. when you go outside of this town and talk to people, half the time they're asking, what's wrong with people in washington? why are they always yapping and not getting stuff down? this is a perfect example of the dysfunction in washington. the stakes are too high to let it pertain. >> the white house position is, to clear this up, jay, if we don't have a deal in time for the president to write into law and to release the funds with a debt ceiling increase by august 2nd, if we don't have that on time it's your position at the white house that that fault lies with the republican party? that the blame game is simple, you're setting it up this way. i heard the president speak last night. many believe what he said last night was, i may not be able to meet the deadline and if i don't i want you to know whose fault it was. i was for a grand deal. they were basically for scorched earth. is that the clear message?

it's their fault? >> no. i want to be clear. >> whose fault is it, then? >> i want to be clear. the president believes, i've said newspapererous times, we believe we'll get a deal. we do not believe the united states will default on its obligations for the first time in history, forsake the gold standard, aaa rating this country held for so long that's paid its invechlgts around the world. in the end, saner heads will prevail in washington and we will get this done that surety you just have given me, since you're sure when is he sure it will happen or doesn't he know when it will happen jp he can't have it both ways. can't be sure there will are a deal in time to deal with this and not be able to say when that times come? this friday? this sunday morning? monday morning? when the time limit? >> look, the time limit is, the last moment when congress can act, before we no longer have the --

>> when's that, jay? >> you know, the deadline set by the treasury department, by the career analysts there, in terms of when we lose our borrowing authority is august 2nd. >> when do you -- >> congress will act. and -- >> in other words, a bill that comes to the president's desk by the morning of august 2nd is in time? >> as i understand it that would be the case. i don't know if it's august 1st or august 2nd depending on the hour of the day when think eventuality might come to pass. we don't think it will get to that. again, we -- make no mistake. conversations continue. obviously, between leaders of both parties on capitol hill. between those leaders and members of the administration. we are seeking a way out of this impasse, this balanced and can be supported by democrats and republicans and that can be seib signed by this president. we think that can happen. it's not pretty. as you know, this process in washington is as ugly as making sausage can be sometimes, but in the end, there is no alternative

to doing the right thing. which is why we thing in the end the right thing will be done. >> appreciate it, jay, my friend. known you a long time, as journalists, both sides of the world we live in. i have to tell you, i've never seen anything like this. never seen one party so clearly willing to take this country into serious trouble because of a the inability to keep its right wing and its ranks in line and i -- you say the bell rings, the morning, the day of august 2nd. i don't think they're willing to go sooner than that because they want to push this to the very end. they don't want to help this country make it. i don't think they're on the same team as you guys. i mean big picturewise. >> in the end, we all root for america. we disagree significantly on a lot of policy issues but in the end all root for america. we all root for america. america's economy. and that sentiment i think will reveal. i really believe that. chris, you've been here -- >> i read in the paper, they don't talk like that. they don't talk like that. that guy up in scranton, that

new tea party guy kelly sounds like he's in loony land. got a bill passed. that's all they got to do. cut, cap and balance is good enough. they all go home. they're living on their own planet. >> i believe the very good people of scranton, pennsylvania, telling him and others about the right thing to do. >> thank you. jay carney. you're keeping hope alive. thank you, jay, for coming on "hardball." the executive editor of politico. i used up all my good time. let me ask you this. is this true. are we all on the same team or is there a real banded operation going on in the right in the republican house? >> i don't know who's on who's team but i'll say deep division inside the republican party. a bloc led by presentative jordan and other conservatives who campaigned and won elections in 2010 on this who don't want to increase the debt limit unless they know absolutely they're getting previcely what they want on capping federal spending. others, john boehner, mitch mcconnell. some of the presidential

candidates, some of the chairman who feel strongly the last thing you can do is default. they want some sort of deal. that's why speaker boehner's been negotiating with the president on this. there is a deep divide, in essence, republicans should be happy they're winning the debate. the end deal will be all about cutting spending. the precise issue they ran on in 2010. unfortunately, they're not satisfied with the victory they have today. >> these guys on the right are still insisting on a balanced budget amendment to the constitution. they want to begin the changing of our cons tags and by the way, they loved founding fathers but want to correct them. do something new they never thought of apparently in the 18th century. they want to correct those guys from back then and do it under an emergency situation. obviously, holding out for drastic structural change in this country. >> they are. i want a hell of a lot of things in life too. some things you can't get. they don't have the votes in the senate, period. they won't get the amendment they desire. the question, can you find a middle ground? can speaker boehner find a place

where they get big enough cuts to satisfy conservatives? a big question now. even a plan john boehner has on the table. conservatives saying they're not going to vote for it. there are not enough republican votes to pass it. outside conservative groups saying they're going to punish member whose do end up voting for it, which scares a lot of republican, that could be subject to difficult primary races. still, again, a deep division. the question is, can they pull it together? i think they do. i don't think either -- not a single leader in the republican or democratic party or in the white house that wants to default. they will get a deal. might be a short-term deal, but eventually they'll get a deal. >> but -- boehner -- boehner is reading -- reading speeches written by the far right. the other night, last night on the international television, in fact, he kamm out and said they had a bipartisan passage of a bill to cut, cap and balance. it wasn't partisan. five democrats aboard. he's using -- >> the politicians to claim bipartisan support because they get a couple --

>> that's malarkey. why are they talking like that? >> everybody's postures. seen like they're the ones like the adults at the table. balanced approach. the line the white house likes to use. these republicans have authentic concern, looking for details from the white house on what the plan might actually be. seemed like a big fight inside the press room today between jay carney, you just had on and reporters who just wanted details. he seemed offended they wanted to do their job and get details on what the white house actually wanted. >> i got news out of it. august 2nd is august 2nd. no more do it by july 22nd to get the ball rolling. no more last friday. now it's next tuesday and they're saying this can go down to the wire. sounds like nothing's getting done until tuesday morning now. once the deadline is clear. >> right. seems to be inconceivable anything is done before the weekend or monday because it doesn't look like the boehner plan on the table can make it through the senate. defeated in the senate, even on a fast track legislative

process, which it will be, there will have to about compromise that can't happen until thursday or friday. the voting process, looking at the weekend. it's going to be monday. the clock ticking. going to be a potential of default. i think think at the end of the day, the very least a short-term extension to work out a deal. they're not that far apart. it's all about cutting spending now. >> looks likes tuesday. thank you very much. seeing it through. republicans on the verge of winning a major ideological fight. seems their winning. no revenues, all spending cuts the way they want it, with the rich asked to contribute nothing and everyone else asked to pick up the fight. wait until you hear the number coming up. what happens to the top 400 rid richest people in country. wait until you hear the numbers. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. she thought allstate car insurance was out of her reach. until she heard about the value plan. and saving money with allstate doesn't stop there...

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suggesting obama would be impeached if the crisis people like him created pushes the country into default. congressman king tweeted the president would be impeached if he blocked debt payments after default caused by the republicans. it's like the kid who kills his parents after asks for sympathy as an orphan. anyway, the senate voted down week. we'll be right back. in here, inventory can be taught to learn. ♪ machines have a voice. ♪ medical history follows you. it's the at&t network -- a network of possibilities... committed to delivering the most advanced mobile broadband experience to help move business... forward. ♪ i've tried it. to help move business... forward. but nothing's helped me beat my back pain. then i tried this. it's salonpas. this is the relief i've been looking for. salonpas has 2 powerful pain fighting ingredients that work for up to 12 hours.

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welcome back to "hardball." two things to consider seriously as this debt ceiling debate plays out. one, catch this. the very wealthy pay a much smaller share of income and taxes right now than they did a decade ago, and, two, the same wealthy american are not being asked to contribute anything to this deal. anything. the entire debate centers as you've heard on this program how much the middle class and poor will have to kick in. how did we get to this point? joining me, co-host of "squawk box," the great writer andrew

ross sorgen who wrote "too big to fail" and ezra who was brilliant today. take a look. do you want to lead me through think, andrew, about the breakout? start it off, steve rattner helped put together the following charts which show just how much less as a percentage of income the richest americans are paying now as compared to, say, 15 years ago. according to the irs, the 400 wealthiest americans were paying taxes as a rate of 18% under president bush in 2008. back in 1993 under clinton, those individuals paid rates at about 29.4%. that's a drop of 10% points in 15 years. well what do we make of this now, how they're bet are off? look at that, seems to me 18% is now about what poor people pay at a much lower percent than middle class people. andrew? >> what happened, the rate has

clearly don down in large part actually a function of investment accounts. think of the top 400 individuals in the country and where they're make thirg money, a lot of it is investment. not paying the higher 35%, obama would like closer to 40% or in the 39% range. that's why you see the numbers where they are. the proposal on the table today has almost no cuts and the proposals onned table over the weekend had very few real revenue enhancements, except to go after some of the private equity hedge fund gips paying that 15%. some of the oil folks who were also paying in that range. the real issue, how do you get a sense of fairness? i was struck last night by the president's remarks when he actually invoked president reagan and his comments to say if we're going to cut on all of these other people, we have to have some shared sacrifice. i thought that resonated at least with me. >> it's amazing.

your average, 400 top americans in the wealthy category, make an average income of $270 million a year. wealth well beyond that, and a wealthy person once said to me, i want to get -- i don't like any more earned income want to make money in capital gains. that's how i make money. your thoughts about this, equity that we start this with. and another graph that shows how much the wealthiest are paying in comparison with other american. there you see that. a moment ago, the very wealthy pay about 18%, about what the people, really not at all are paying. 9 middle class, many people make 75k a year paying a higher percentage. the old joke of the high-paid secretary, paying a higher rate, ezra, than the ceo is true. >> two things going on here. connected, not the same. this fairness, how much the rich pay in normal times and actually the deficit issue, which is part but a lot of what's happened in the last couple of year. when it comes to what the rich

are paying, reagan had big structural tax cuts. clinton smaller tax creases than bush had in '01 and '03, of course, very low rates. the last 23 years about tax cuts and for higher income folks. 9 financial crisis devastated revenues in the country. dropped by 5 percentage points of gdp. now at the lowest level since the 1950s. put that together and hear the republicans saying we have a spending problem not a taxing problem. as a simple matter of fact, that isn't true. look at our deficit and our revenues going forward -- >> paying banjo music by the right, hearing it over and over. the troubadours, learned the song. why do you keep saying that over and over? we're not taxed enough. it's that we spend too much. >> i don't know if you have the chart. >> here it is. >> a great chart. >> let me show it. >> that shows actually revenue has gone down at the same time

as the cuts. you can actually see it. almost inparallel. it's an unfair argument and an unfair argument the republicans have used for a very long time. >> we've got right leer. here's the graph showing how much spending, how much spending, increased from 2007 and -- compare it to the increase sharply, right. down to about 24% of gdp going to spending right now, and about 14 -- 15% just below 15% for revenues. >> the argument, inaccurate, but it's not a dumb argument. one thing we know about the starve the beast policy, it doesn't cut the deficit. seen it over and over. increases the deficit. people think spending doesn't have any cost. what it were do over a long period of time, cut programs. republicans never want taxes to rise at all. over time, spending cuts to meet that. taxes devastated due to both tax cuts and due to the financial crisis and now we're going to have the baby boomers retire and more expenses in the tax code,

and then don't allow taxes to rides, eventually you end up having to implement something that the ryan budget itself, simply becausy don't have a choice. you can do a lot in this country just by not letting taxes rise, even if you never take the next step and say what the policies have to meet the revenues will be. >> gentlemen, ask you a question. a lot of people who watch the show every night think about this a lot. i want to ask you, now that we have two guys that know what they're talking about here. for the benefit of everybody watches, why don't we have a big debate what percentage of our economy want the federal government to spend and are we willing to pay for it? some big 3ik cher discussion? okay. aging of our population requires more spending on health care tore people over l 65. meet that commit or not. meet a portion of it? help with education at the federal level? do real infrap structure spending? cut down our overseas military operations? what are we going to make -- the households makes those decisions

every day. the average household decides, can we afford to buy new shoes for the kids? what kind of vacation can we take? travel, stay in the neighborhood? people make these decision. why doesn't the federal government decide what it's going to spend money on and decide it's going to pay for it? ezra, you first. >> here's the fundamental problem. to have that honest conversation. the conversation we need to have. while we need to raise revenue, that means raising stacks s rais on the wealthiest. in the end, raise taxes on everybody and by the way, the cuts you have to make are deep and painful, and that conversation unto itself is a painful conversation, ultimately to truly have. it's a conversation we think we want to have but when you actually sit around the table and are having it, it's a very difficult one, because the answers aren't -- >> i've had that conversation every week and that's how we lived and got to where we got today. from aspiring cultures make those decisions all the time.

ezra, your thoughts. why can't we as a country -- you don't go to nightclubs and on expensive vacations, you give the kids educations. your thoughts? >> a tough conversation to have. our political system is not well i kwipt to have it. we tend 20 firefight. gridlocked. anything affirmative that isn't forced by a crisis, spend all of our time dealing with a crises we could have prevented in advance. like the deficit. no reason to have this right now. having prevented a crisis, then have a decent conversation about the future. >> got to go. i read your column. you're great. thank you, andrew. too big to fail. a look at the federal government that way some day. and the criticism of president obama by boehner, may have soin sounded like they took every jab at republicans and turned it back at him. that's in the "sideshow." you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. introducing the schwab mobile app.

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now for the "sideshow" tonight. as the debt ceiling debate continues to consume both congress and the white house you may have noticed something about the republican rhetoric. their accusations against president obama sound remarkably similar to what the president himself said angrily about the republicans. here's president obama last week on the gop's complete unwillingness to budge during negotiations. >> i think that, you know, one of the questions that the republican party's going have to have itself is, can they say yes to anything? >> and here's speaker boehner last night. >> unfortunately the president would not take yes for an answer. even when we thought we might be close to an agreement, the president's demands changed. >> no fluke. here's what the president had to say about both parties getting too caught up in political wear

faire when they should be focused on solving the debt crisis itself. >> neither party in this town is blameless. both have talked this problem to death without doing enough about it. that's what drives people nuts about washington. too often it's a place more concerned with playing politics th and solving special interests than solving problems of what you're facing in your own lives. >> sound like he's reading from the president's playbook. >> i know the president is worried about his next election, but, my god, shouldn't we are worried about the country? >> lastly, how about when it comes from walking way way when negotiationses become too tough to swallow? how president obama described the breakdown with communication with the republican leader. >> i've been left at the altar now a couple of times. >> and once again, the table's were turned. >> it's the president who walked away from his agreement and demanded more money.

>> a pretty transparent strategy by republican, got say. the big number, this is telling. president obama mentioned the word compromise six time, half a dozen times in his speech last night. the word compromise. how many times did boehner use it? he mentioned a compromise a grand total of -- zero times. he doesn't like that word, compromise. it offends his people. ooh, compromise. bad. that's tonight's non-existent big number, seer pope think about it. they can't say the word compromise. up next, why aren't we hearing anything about the debt ceiling fight from the republicans who want to be president? where's the leadership? other than michele bachmann, the silence of the lambs. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball." only on msnbc. and i try to learn

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i'm brian sullivan with your cnbc market wrap. accelerating towards the close. the dow fell 91 points led by 3m. nasdaq gave up two. beat earnings about the debt ceiling. what else? ford, 3m, u.p.s. moving down despite reporting solid earnings. investors clearly growing more concerned about the overall pace of recovery. could slow in the second half of the year. apparently food is hot. domino's pizza rising, boosted in part by successful international expansion. meantime, ak steel and u.s. steel missed expectations on bumping street prices as well as materials costs. there's inflation for you. one big winner of the day, radio shack. yes, radio shack. it soared after dumping a partnership with t-mobile and right now amazon.com share, hot after better than expected sales and profits were delivered after

the closing bell and a little bit of signs of stabilization in the housing market. new home sales fell in june, but overall prices are rising some as supplies dwindle. that's it from cnbc. first in business worldwide. now, back to "hardball." i will not vote to increase the debt ceiling. it goes completely contrary to common sense, and how i grew up in iowa. we have to deal with the economic reality. and i have the will and i have the courage to see this through. i'm michele bachmann, and i approve this message i. love this, the take on the background. welcome back to "hardball." when it comes to the debt crisis we know where the tea parties stand. michele bachmann, leader of 9 tea party of the house. you saw in her campaign ad. what about other republicans

running in 2012? why haven't we heard from them? a great question. michael shear writes for the famous "time" magazine and ap definite article, i had to say the "time" magazine. look at romney. his tweet. criticized by some for not saying much how he would handle the debt ceiling. today he tweeted. not an appropriate method i don't think, talking about this issue. "this is historic failure of leadership from barack obama, not even senator reid is still talking about tax increases." there's the kind of thing you hear from a businessman on a commuter train after two drinks coming from this guy who doesn't drink. not very thoughtful. i'm against taxes subpoena that the best you can get out of this guy who wants to be president of the united states? >> wants to be president of the united states campaigning without being a candidate. done everything he can over the last six months to stay out of the limelight, keep himself away. when he opens his mouth, all he says is barack obama is awful. >> and the unc days, in sports,

you hold the ball. in football. in other sports, controlling the ball. is that what he's going to do? no attempts to score? >> doing it as long as he can. rick perry gets in, the calculation changes. >> he'll have to fight for t. yeah. >> and called 9 front-runner by his own team acting the front-runner, he won't talk? >> because she the front-runner and probably, you know -- almost the only electable candidate. >> don't lead verse to lead? >> yes, eventually they do, if not being challenged directly. >> irregardless, respond to this, mitt romney asked how he'd solve the country's deficit problems. here he was, and his answer. let's listen. >> the answer for the country is for the president to cut federal spending, cap federal spending and put in place a balanced budget amendment. it's with my view the president's power to say, to his

leadership and to the house and the senate, i will cut spending. i will cap the amount of spending. i'll pursue a balanced budget amendment, and if the president would do those things, this whole deficit issue disappears. >> that was nitwit talk. parroting the house republican bill. he had nothing to say there. that's never going to get passed -- >> july 14th. >> all he's doing is parroting. >> talking about now, president obama, even though he may be losing the policy fight now is winning the center of the country. >> you believe that? >> i do. there's a poll out saying 60% agreed with limb. jay carney on early 49 times, in the briefing, compromise, compromise, speaking to midwestern states, where republicans have to start running. >> pawlenty. bachmann, far out. she wants the house to come down. guess she just doesn't care, and romney playing it safer. pawlenty somewhere in the middle trying to get heard. here he is, pawlenty, earlier in

the month whether he's raid the debt ceiling. listen to the former governor of minnesota. >> under any circumstances you would not raise the debt ceiling without sufficient spending cuts. >> they've gone through the debt ceiling, went through in may. i wish they would raise it, but if they're going to raise it at least get structural reform and improvement so we're on a better trajectory going forward. >> wow. structural reform --. what pawlenty said last night. let me be clear, i will not vote to raise the debt limit. the congress and president should not raise the debt limit. back to her position. there he is, fighting for the far right with bachmann. we can see his strategy. he says, how i grew up in iowa references to iowa. >> common sense. in a straw poll, all he cares about. on the plank of the party. >> has to win that. >> saying things that sounds like it pleases them, not committing and can't back track. >> he's worried about the base,

it appears for the moment, bachmann captured in the polls. that's what he's going to worry about right now. so he needed to say something clear and needed to fight this growing reputation pawlenty has for not taking off, not lighting a fire with anyone. >> and every time i see a picture of this guy, even the background. let me ask you this -- can folks come down on the republican side to three heads. bachmann, far right. rick perry, the governor of texas probably coming in somewhere where she is politically, and mitt romney, who will be what he has to be politically. >> right. >> is that it? >> plenty of time for things -- >> those three people? >> right now they are. i think that's right. >> pawlenty's not taking off. bachmann's too new. >> bachmann, anything can happen in this country. probably not elected proceed. probably not a good bet for a general election candidacy. rick perry, unknown. talked about running for president.

all of a sudden seems to be talked into running for president. not that re felt he should be president and romney wanting to be president since he was a kid, probably. >> right. >> yeah. >> and interestingly -- >> so what's new, puzoo pussyca? >> everybody likes pawlenty. he seemed to reach for the middle suggesting he would support the boehner plan. for far right, tea party types, still talking. >> is that republican party we're looking ats, this guy, looks great. huntsman, experience in business and certainly as a governor. incredibly popular out in utah. this guy is running for a republican party that hasn't existed in 30, 40 years. it's a pre-reagan party. >> it does seem so. >> what's he doing? >> exactly the same that obama in his speech was trying to appeal to ininvoking ronald reagan. >> romney and who could be the unromney? rick perry mixes it up because he's going to come in with conservative credentials, ethe

evangelicals behind him. >> i still think people think that the former mayor of wasilla might jump in at the last minute. thank you, guys. you think she might? >> i'm not betting on it. >> 50/50. >> see? interesting. especially if the book makes big noise. thank you, michael hirsch and michael scherr. among the hardest hit people during this recession that continues. can the president hold on until things get bet jer will he lose if they get worse? this is "hardball" on msnbc.

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welcome back to "hardball." we learned today, a lot of people new earlier the hispanic community a key voting block for president obama in 2008, hit the hardest in this recession. look at the chart. median net worth of hispanic households dropped a stunning 66%. that's a two-thirds drop in

their worth. black households dropped more than half. 53% ms almost at badly and white, 16%. how will this effect the hispanic the democratic vote in 2012? and christina bellantoni is an editor at cq roll call and leads their 2012 coverage. we've got great coverage here ourselves. i want to start with maria, then christina, tell me how the vulnerability is different to an economic downturn. >> their economic vulnerable is absolutely different. this is a community that, for the last couple years, as you have said, have been hit in this recession unlike any other community that we have seen. most of it has been because the majority of latinos, big communities live in nevada, live in florida, lift in california, three states that have seen the mortgage crisis the worst in this country. >> so the value of their prime

property, their house, has dropped. >> exactly. for latinos, their home has always been probably the biggest definition of the american dream in this country. >> and some of them overreached? >> well, you know, yes, we can talk for hours to -- >> we know what happened. >> to what the cause was, but then that goes to the politics of it. you always vote your pocketbook. what i think will be the reality is latinos will take a look at this president, the democrats, republicans, they will look toe policies and really see which policies -- >> can i make a partisan comment? the destruction of our housing industry does not begin under president obama. that was the burning bed he got into. >> no question about that, and latinos understand that. >> let me go to christina, the sophistication of voters goes with the bad circumstances. you pay more attention when you've got more at stake. your thoughts about the possibility of president obama not getting as good a vote in

'12 as he got in '08. >> the obama campaign team is very aware that latino voters are important to winning in 2012. you've seen a lot of growth in areas that you just mentioned n on nevada. arizona as well, california, booming latino populations. i just got a statistics that 50,000 latinos turn 18 every month in this country. that means they're eligible to vote. they are very well aware of that, but the issue that the obama campaign is looking a the, if the president continuing to talk about immigration policy, and particularly pushing the dream acts that he says he wants passed, even though it will not become reality before the election, he can bank on republicans trying to demonize immigrants. that's what the campaign believes, it's happened over the years, and i think the president believes he will be better off. >> are they as stupid as the campaign by sharron angle showing a cowboy movie coming to

kill the white people? you say they're stupid enough to run run it? >> yes, they are not only stupid that way. they really don't understand the importance of the community in this country. they have people like jeb bush and karl rove talking to them behind the scenes, because they are nervous they will never see the white house if they continue on this path. the reality is the path through the white house leads through latino communities, the gop has no clue how to gaff gait that. they will never seen inside la casa blanca. >> i love it, but let me get back to the question of the immigration bill. i'm skeptic that either side wants a resolution. they want the politics. is that fair? >> yes. you had a comprehensive immigration reform bill that president bush supported and a lot of republicans risked their neck for.

that is one reason they lost the house. it wasn't a democratic wave. it was republicans turning against republicans. >> there are about three people that i trust on that, one of them is lost, ted kennedy, but i think lindsey graham and chuck schumer on that, that want a real immigration bill that could pass. >> i agree with that. when we return, let me finish with a way out of the debt ceiling. wow, a way out of the standoff, at least. you're watching "hardball."

let me finish tonight with the dreadful despiriting diatribe over the debt. both sides have the other side pegged. that's why the spanish don't allow the fighting bull to fight a second time. you no longer here the oles shouting from the stands, no longer the heads of the crowd to turn to catch each of the charges. it's gotten, dare i say it, dull out there. it isn't if you count the stakes and get past the rivalry to the world at large. the world at large has a lot riding on this, a lot more than a political election, meaning america, this country, is ready to go down a notch over this contest among politicians. i know why it's important to raise revenues only a hard partisan can't see the need to bring up revenue and bring down spending to something like 20%

of the economy, perhaps tending a bit above that to account for an aging population, not even counting the need to do something about head care and infrastructure, both which are deteriorating. i also know why it's important to do this quickly. on both counts, the revenue issue and the timing issue, i'm with him. what i don't understand is why it's so important to avoid another debate in 2012, say six months from now that would permit a second step in the hiking of the debt ceiling. if that's the only run, the president may have to sign onto the deal. where the republicans have to give way and do so immediately is on this balanced budget amendment to the constitution. this is no time to be debating something like this, now with the clock ticking. they also have to give way on the right-wing auxiliary to vote on a dead hike now. this el can choose between congresswoman's bachmann's wild version of politics and reason, but they have to do it fast.