add up. unlike sports and finance, in politics you get to make up your own numbers. politics apparently is taking advantage of that fact. good afternoon, my name is dylan ratigan. t-minus six days' financing is ready ily the congressional budt office says both harry reid and mr. boehner plans to come up short is an understatement. the number are -- it's hard for me to sit here in a legitimate suit and news programs, to try to talk about it, because it's so ridiculous. the cbo score shows that the cuts congress promise do not exist. reid's plan is half a trillion off, whatever that means, boehner's plan, $350 billion short, working its way to half a trillion, does any of it matter

when there's not enough support to get either bill through, and when you consider the fact that the whole thing is a made-up political event, basically preventing usç from the real conversation about job creation and structure in the banks and tax code that could create prosperity, we are left with little more than pro wrestling, which actually rates well, it actually doesn't just get us anywhere. nbc's luke russert starts us off with the latest. >> reporter: around around around they go, where it stops, nobody knows, you're alluding to the fuzzy math. let's start off with the harry reid plan the cbo scored it as 2.2 trillion. they're still going to present that plan, not so much on the other side, the republican plan by john boehner promised over 1.2 trillion in cuts. that number was scored by the cbo at $850 billion, about $350

billion short. that caused john boehner last night to pull the bill from the house floor. they are rewriting it as we speak. it will be on the floor tomorrow. the real question is, can john boehner get 217 votes for the new bill that's going to come about? they've been whipping it hard, a team effort. he and top depend i eric cantor, kitchen mccarthy, they're still not there jet as we speak. if they don't get too 217 and pass something out of the house with solely republican finger pripts, john boehner has lost all leverage with negotiations, and would effectively have to work out some compromise with them. the idea now is this will pass through the house on thursday, it will go to the senate, it most likely will not pass there, because reid says he's going to blockade it. there would be some sort of amendment attached this weekend, ultimately that will be the final bill that alleviates the united states from this debt

crisis and does not allowç us but still a long way to go. this is the most amazing -- it's full of high drama, tons of nuance, you don't know what's going to happen next, and quite frankly nobody in this building knows what will happen next. the uncertainty is now reflected in the markets. lowest in history against the swiss franc, the dow has dropping, so a lot of consternation. >> the bond market is entirely intact, there's no evidence of default, and the financing is completely and totally available. i expect if you called a bond desk, he would arrange financing licky split, which makes this whole thing rather absurd. a default you would think we actually couldn't arrange the financing, but maybe i come from

a strange planet. luke, a pleasure. more on the numbers game in a few, but first i have to bring in javier bacera. basically if i units what you're trying to do, go back to the beginning, strip the budget deba debate, and then turn your attention to a budget debate. is that correct? >> if we could go back to where we've always been, where george bush expected republicans to be, and that is give us a chance to debate deficits and budgets together and not tied into this whole discussion of paying our bills. if we do that, we can move forward and look at the job deficits. >> brilliantly executed strategy on the part of certain political factions, whether it's the republican party or parts of the republican party. you have to admire the political leverage that they have applied by manipulating this debt ceiling debate, at the same time

it's like admire a courageous leader who wants to lead everybody off a cl[ff to shoot themselves. now they have essentially gotten what they kept saying they wanted, which was only cuts to very important programs. unfortunately from my perspective, it looks like the president is willing to go there, simply to avoid having the country thrown into chaos, but even then the republicans didn't seem to understand how to claim that victory. today the republicans can't get republican votes for a republican bill in the house of representatives, so john boehner takes to live tv after president obama and says we've got a plan, it's a two-step plan, we're going to put it on the floor, he decides to not put it on the floor, because when we went back to talk to the republican colleague, he said we don't like it. >> it strikes me as incompetent, confide candidly, when you look at the willingness to renew the bush tax cuts last winter

without making contingent at the time the raising of the debt ceiling, knowing full well renewing the bush tax cuts was going to lead to this. you put yourself in a situation as a community leading the democratic party, where you are now totally hostage to your opponent's agenda. >> dylan, some of us as democrats did not vote for that december deal because of what you just said, but at the same time recognize that once again, the president was put in this hostage situation where americans, working americans and more importantly working americans who lost their jocks were looking at no type of support to help them find their jobs or get benefits. so he did what i goss he thought he needed to do, and that was move us forward, but you're exactly right. we find ourselves in this position where republicans have got accustomed to playing with the toys and don't want to share. they still don't realize they have a victory and now are holding mortgages, retirement accounts, the value of the dollar up in the air, because

they want their way or it'sç t high way for everyone else. >> good news is the bond market is still over. after the politics are over, i can assure you money is available. >> the bond markets still believe they will solve this, and i think it's because they see that some people are still staying at the. but republicans have to figure out failure is not a good option i want and it figures with the central fwank printing money no matter what, it doesn't matter. >> the reality is we're the largest and most dynamic economy in the world. the they learn that -- which by the way, would restore our revenues. we're at the lowest rate of revenue production for the nation in the last 60 years so the result is these massive deficits. when you don't have americans working, they can't pay taxes. if they can't pay taxes, they need public services. the best thing we can do is get to focusing on job creation.

>> i can't not agree with you more. i look forward to that debate, congressman. thanks for the time. megapanel here in new york. msnbc contributors emerson lloyd weber, jonathan cape heart, and rupert cox, a pleasure to see the three of you. mr. cox, financial markets showing some squirrelyness, on the currency side you're seeing a bit of activity. at the same time there is not much of a we need a market smackdown. it will galvanize considerable all of a sudden -- you know, i don't want you to get hedge fund managers. they're going to çsay, my god,y pension is now worth 10% less than the day before. whether you liked t.a.r.p. or not. it was that first round through

the smackdown for two days, i think the dow fell like -- just an absolute -- >> bloodbath, but the problem is i don't know if we're going to have that kind of moment. i also believe that what we will have is a downgrade, but no one can kind of like get their hands on it. >> and even if you're downgraded, it doesn't matter. japan was downgraded, but it doesn't affect their interest rates. >> well, 95% of their bonds are bought by japanese individuals. we don't have quite that luxury, but a downgrade is one of these things with basic li you get once, you keep going, it's rare you go back up. no one knows what's going to happen. when t.a.r.p. went down, people were shocked about the drop, and

experts, people who are supposed to know they see things and know what's going to happen, they don't know what's going to happen if the united states defaults. they don't know what's going to happen in the united states is downgraded. i think that's what's most dangerous here. sill wish people would take that more seriously. >> i've just come back from europe, there's a disparages disbelief. last thursday there was a big meeting about the euro zone crisis. whatever you think of the plan they come up, however, they all came together, came up with a plafç to avert crisis. looking at washington's politicians and thinking, hey, hang on a minute, they're as -- >> didn't you run a bureau -- >> i was in italy last week in fact. the analogy is apt. the difference is the market

shook italy two weeks ago into doing something. they pass add 40 billion euro austerity plan, because the market freaked out. >> and in england as well. we held that deficit reduction, because we were worried about the market. here? >> i want to go back to jonathan's point, and this is -- i think people are trying to understand the implications. because america is the reserve currency of the world, because all the oil, the commodities, everything that exists, that china sells to brazil, that saudi arabia sells to europe is priced in u.s. dollars. it is incredibly unclear to what the implication of not paying it, because it is the only currency. beyond that, you have this multitrillion backstop in place that is the central bank, which is effectively saying even if it appears america is going to default, the natural correctionive mechanism that got italy in line, which was to jack interest rates and the italian

bond market and everybody gets freaked out and then they have a meeting is gone, it's literally as if the mechanism that should be enforcing what we're talking about has been put on morphine, because the actual market, which is the bond market should be leans against this -- >> but where else do you put your money? >> i know. i get it. >> so ironically everybody is coming here at the same time when everybody isç looking -- m picture a phone call between the finance minister in china, the head of the euro zone and in saudi arabia, saying how soon can we get a basket bypass currency done, because i don't want to watch in nonsense in america again? >> this is why what's happening is so dangerous. we are between two horrible positions, default and downgrade. speaker boehner and the -- >> but we aren't, really. that's what we've been printed with, but it's made up.

>> that's the political question, that's true. >> but we don't need to be there. >> we've chosen ton chosen to be here. >> only in america has the luxury to create a crisis like this. >> whose fault is it? >> i believe it is the collective fault of every person in this country. i believe -- i believe that america right now quite honestly has the government it has chosen. >> it's the government -- >> it reflects who we are as a people. we are an acrimonious, dualistic group of people who are dao this sort of fighting, and how we function with the cable and the market, and the reality is the government reflects the worst of all thoughts characteristics, so you're saying what's wrong? there you go. the panel stays. coming up later, a break from all of this madness to retreat to a man cave, and there is a tupperware party for guys, and

no, there are not -- it's not that kind of a cave. but first mitt romney all smiles as he throws daggers at the president for his handling of the economy. but the other question, is does this governor or any republican candidate have the chops to actually do anything better? plus nine months of fighting and they can't get the plath right. is congress smarter than a fiftç grader? as we head to brick, something to highlight the ridiculousness of it all. ♪ and we live ♪ spending lots of money while sipping kristal ♪ ♪ i'm in kwan at a timive easing ♪ [ groans ] [ marge ] psst.

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>> i am not smarter than a fifth grader. humiliating consequences. that woman, however, not trying to solve our massive debt or again an economy in general. . the spending cuts meanwhile, congress is promising are in fact so far from reality it's laughable. i'm talking about hundreds of billions in lies, in both the plans. imojen and jonathan. at cnbc when you do financial television, you can argue all

day about why something has happened, whether it will continue to happen, whether you are right or i am right, but i can't say google stock was up and why was it up and you can't say actually google stock was down. i can't go to sports and say why did the red sox win? you can say it's because of the pitching, and no it was because of the fielding, and you say no, it's because so-and-so had an error, but i can't say, no, the red sox didn't lose last night. the political universe is the place where there are actually no facts. to me that was brought home in complete bald glory when the cbo scored both the democratic plan and the republican plan this morning. at what point does some intelligent politician, because they do exist bakley do an end-around on this entire theater and walk away from both these parties and walk in with what is clearly a wide-open marketplace for a real

conversation. when does somebody do something to try to take advantage of the stupidity. politically there's got to be an opportunity at some point. >> people have tried in times when itç wasn't this dire and have failed. you know, the way it's stacked up, the republican parties and democratic party have -- in order to one you have to be in one of toss parties. >> but inside the party you might thing -- >> at least i saw time coburn say there's another way to be a conservative. i don't know how successful he has been. >> and senator coburn is a very smart man, but he's one person, and one person, and 535. at we've seen speaker boehner, personally i think he's tried to do the right thing. look at what's happening to him now. he puts out a plan his own conference won't come near. >> but there is a credibility issue. if your numbers are wrong -- these guys sort of make mortgage

bankers circumstana 2008 look l [ laughter ] >> boehner was off 30%, to put it in the parlance of wall street. i think reid was off, what, 18%. >> half a billion. >> so 18%. i mean, there are degrees, we can look at it that way, who is righter or wronger? >> so how do you interpret that? the simple math says that boehner a wronger than reid. >> yes, boehner was wronger than reid by almost a double, but of course the dimensions are different. but boehner is dealing with something quite difficult. i don't think no a moment that he thought those numbers would go through. inch theç ineptitude is quite

sad. next year it will be the politician and the party that's irritated the american public the least that will win. head obama and hillary clinton going at it in the frimaries. there was a wonderful conversation. the rest of the world was thinks, great, this is america leading the way, now 2012, it's just a disgrace. i feel so sorry for america. >> it's time for brazil to step up and lead the world unless it's china, i guess. maybe the antidote is this man. >> if i were president, i would get them in the right direction by having taxes that are competitive, regulations that's streamlined and trade policy that is work for us, and energy policies that get us energy secure and the rule of law being protected. >> again that rhetoric sounds great. i strongly believe we need reform. i strongly believe we need

reform in the trade policy. obviously we need energy. what makes me nervous, jonathan, is nearly every president since nixon said he would give us energy -- the talking points, i heard from george bush, bill clinton. they know what to say to get ele elected, but the reason people feel so upset is they feel like everybody knows what to say to get elected, but no one hases in obligation to do it. >> everyone says what they need to say and want to say to get elected. once you run up against governing, governing is the problem. >> what is it that turns that cotton candy all nice and soft into that rock-hard nastyness that is to govern. >> when you say that i say the guy got elected and realized the entire congress was bought by six major industries setç in place to prevent reform on banking energy, taxes trade, all those major indices.

is that what governing means is the president can't actually do everything, because the congress is bought by special interests? >> and also because the information that the candidate has on the campaign trail, suddenly he finds out wow, all the stuff i thought was true is not true. >> governing is a good point. look at romney. he ran the state of massachusetts. he's a republican who ran massachusetts. his crowning moment was corralling all of the -- the legislature, teddy kennedy, the federal government, to basically strike a deal on -- well, dare we say it, health care. that is how you govern, that's how you pull people together, fight entrenched interests, and he doesn't want to talk about it, and it's a shame. >> wo doesn't? >> romney. >> you're saying his signature achievement as a governor, which was his job, he didn't want to

talk about. >> that's right. and why? because it's about health care, and he's disavowed it. that's a shame, actually. that's what we need is leadership. >> that's what's going on with the gop at the moment. they need reasonable govern yams to happen in 2016, which is why you're seeing the best candidates stepping back this time around and they will come forward in 2016. >> great news for the politicians, bad news for a unemployed americans and all the rest of it. anyway, the panel stays. next, the answer to our debt and sky-high gas prices. why would we do that? we'll talk about it after this. oh, we call it the bundler. let's say you need home and auto insurance. you give us your information once, online... [ whirring and beeping ]

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all right. well, we spoil yesterday with

former white house economic divorce darren bernstein, one of which would be tackling the trade deficits. half of our deficit is from buying foreign oil. 50% of our trade deficit, from oil. the other half? based on our rigged trade relationship with china. our specialist is sandy franks, with some thoughts on how not only we free ourselves from our dependence on foreign oil, but in the process reduce, and cede some 10, 20, 30, 40 million jobs over time dealing with energy.ç just how consequential do you see this assetening conversation, sandy? >> well, we spend about $700 billion in oil. in the month of may, $41 million. in march, $39 million. just to show you how much that's

gone up. in march 17, almost 18 billion on oil, so the amount of money is continually growing. what i would prefer is we take a more balanced approach. i don't think we can continue as a nation just to have a huge depend as soon as on foreign oil. it's a crazy spending too much money on it. for every $10 increase, it translates to about 25% at the pump for the consumer. we have a huge problems with a lot of americans laid off, this debt problem we've been talking about, we can't afford to continue to have americans pay these kinds of prices. >> what do we do about it? >> i think what we need to do i think right now we're stuck in this horrible annoying and frustrating debate that neither side of congress can get their stuff together to be able to figure out what they're going to do about the budget problem.

i think what they need to do is take serious looks at dismiss oil tax incentives and breaks for particularly the top five oil companies. which congress talks about raising prices, what that basically means is it will fall back on the american consumer. we aren't getting special tax breaks like big oil is getting. if they're going to talk about raisingç taxes, they need to lk at the whole gap bit, especially the special incentives and tax breaks that oil companies do to help bring down the problem we're facing right now. >> do you think, those, that though tax breaks or subsidies should instead go to investment in green energy? or is all the talk that president obama has made about green centering, is that not even the solution?

>> it's part of the solution of. only 50 billion was allocated toward alternative central sources. we need more than that to get ourself off foreign oil. i realize we can't eliminate it completely. we do need oil in this country. in fact most of what we -- but we do need to take much more serious approach to alternative energies. for example, the last time we have an oil embargo back in the '70s, we started building some experimental plants, the government did, and windmill manufacturers they started playing around, finding out that some of these things could work, but of course when the embargo stopped -- >> sandy, it's rob cox. the basic issue is one of the economics, isn't it? we have not enough supplies, we

have to get it elsewhere and way too much demand, so the way to ultimately is get pour supply, and you know there's lots of plans to, i don't know, put it in dylan's backyard and my backyard. >> geothermal, whatever it is. then the others, of course, is to curb consumption and be more efficient. >> absolutely, i agree. >> don't you have to have -- i mean, ultimately don't you have to have a big tax on consumption of oil and hydrocarbons? simplgts that's a market absolute, and we're not even paying the real price. the cost is -- by virtue of our tax bill relative to environmental cleanup, so it's not as if -- we already are

getting -- i'm curious how many the subsidization really prevents us from done anything else. i think if we spread it out, it would be aful better approach. we can't continually provide oil companies with tremendous amounts, we're talking billions. for example, oil companies going to take deduction 199, which was meant for manufacturing companies. oil companies can write off the manufacturing of their oil production. some people are saying that's about $14 billion a year. some people have set over five years. so if we have -- if we're talking about trying to get our debt in order, and we -- look if this quinn was run like a business and you're suffering from low revenues, then you cut

your expenses, figure out how to get your revenues up. >> i would argument you're focusing on the wrong thing, because when you're out about 5 to 10 to 15 trillion, it's not going to help you. that's why i'm with rob on the tax. go ahead, imogen. >> what alternative energy do you rate most?ç >> i think it has to be natural gas, wind, solar. these are promising thing. i tell my story about only island off the coast the denmark. in ten years, they wanted them to make all their center sources 100% renewable. they did it. i know we aren't as small as that island, but it shows you what is possible. they took, for example, diesel truck, farm equipments, they

just started converting rapeseed oil, so they could wean themselves off oil. so it demonstrates it's possible if the effort is put forth. we don't actually do anything to change this terrible addition wrestle to foreignoid. as long as we have this unholy alliacy -- >> absolutely. sandy, congratulations on the book. thank you for our time. thanks for the panel as well. a delight to see the three of you. we shall see what happens. none of us know what will help. people love when you don't know what's going to happen. it's good for tv. so the stick around. coming up, meet the michael scott of the muslim world.

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evolution, if you will, of the tupperware party concept, a potential way to supplement your income. at the very least, a very interesting and rapidly growing and rather successful small business in america may sown too good to be true, but the man is heist, nick bestie. i'm really into how young you are, how you came up with in idea and the fact that you guys have so much success at this point tell us what the concept was, and how you first started going about doing this. >> yeah, man cave, we're about creating an experience, a renal for guys to get together again. two years ago i was having a barbecue at my uncle's house, grilling up çburgers, smoking

brats, and this was one hell of a time. we are playing games, bean bags, and hammershlagen is a game where he play. and guys don't do this enough anymore. as you progress through life, you get busy with kids and a wife, all this, how can we provide this for the guys out there? that brought about man cave. >> so basically you came up with the business, you sponsor the free parties, you commission the guys, and you look to sell the products that are available. how is it going? >> it's going great. it's been two years, and we've hired, you know, over 1,300 guys to come on board and do this part time, 3, 10 hours a week, and they're making anywhere from $200 to $2,000 a month, getting together, grilling meat, drinking beer and having fun again. that's what it's all about. >> can i ask you a couple questions. as you can tell, i'm a fan, i

admire what you're doing, and i have a couple questions. >> yeah. let's do it. >> are there any girls at these parties? >> there can be. there can be. women are definitely allowed in the man cave. they just can't decorate the man cave. that's the only rule. so, you know, about 10% of our reps are women, actually, and they do very well. think about it, the old bartender, you know, type lady, she can sell with the best of them. those are the types of women that do well with man cave. >> basically women are welcome in the man cave, but they are not allowed to decorate the man cave. that's where the line is drawn? >> that's where it's drawn. >> that's what makes it a man cave? >> exactly. a place for men to be men. >> got it. >> whatever happened to things like going fishing?ç bowls? >> that's fine. >> playing golf? >> yeah, no. >> you speak as if we've -- as if men have lost their ability to socialize with each other and are now suddenly dependent upon

you and your honest ambition to serve the rest of us to see each over. >> but think about it. as you get older, you move through life, you go to the bar on a friday night, or the guys come over and you watch a football game. instead you're at your little girl's softball game playing angry birds on your cell phone -- >> what's wrong with that? >> guys still do get together -- >> let me ask you another question, so when it comes down to it, you're running a business. the marketing strategy is these parties, the marketing strategy is based on the man cave concept, but when it comes down to it, you're selling products to people for money. what is your best-selling product? >> we have 32 flavors of brats, bratwursts, and our favorite is a buffalo wing bleu cheese flavored brat. i'll send you a pack, you'll love it.

>> is there bleu cheese in the brat? >> oh, yeah. that's what we specialize in, the brats that have these giant chunks whatever it is you're eating, whether it's a philly cheesesteak stuffed with, or a ginness and bleu cheese favorites which has real guinness beer and bleu cheese crumbles? it's a flavor explosion in your mouth. >> so really you're a sausage salesman? >> no, i mean, that's one of our products. that's our best-selling product -- >> i'm teasing you. i'mteasing. >> how would you expand this? >> i think, going along with what you're saying, what we're excited about is expanding outside the model. beyond that, there's so many possibilities, whether it's new product expansion lance or a man-cation, maybe the guys at

the meeting, as we call it, say, we enjoy hanging out, let's get together again, but let's go on a fishing trip. man cave can facilitate that. that's what we're expanding, or maybe it's tailgating packages. you and 9 guys want to go to a giants game, and we have this -- that you can tailgate in. >> there's things you have to be able to do to, like changing a tire, throwing a spiral, i guess, with the football obviously, picking up laundry with your feet, any form of poker, are these things taught at the parties? >> yeah -- no, i mean, one element. meetings all have four elements, and that's meat, that's beer, and that is competition, and guys. so those are the four limits of a man cave meeting or just guys getting toes. so part of that competition is,

you know, maybe it's a tire-changing contest. make it's hammershlagen, a piece of wood with nails in it and whoever can nail in the wood the fastest. >> i am impressed. i hope you experience tremendous success, and i look forward to the roll-out of the woman çcav. do you think we'll see such a thing? >> i think it's possible. they need their space, too. >> that's half the people, you'll double your market right there. >> there we go. >> listen, nick, congratulations. thanks for your time this afternoon. if you're interested in learning more, check out mancave on the old internet. here on "hardball," chris one on one with white house budget director jack lew, but david goodfriend

asking where big business is. ♪ we're not going to take it anymore ♪ is more important than ever. at remax.com, you can find the experts you need, whether you're trying to sell of hoping to buy. nobody sells more real estate than re/max. visit remax.com today.

we're back, david goodfriend's got the floor. what's on your mind, the good doctor? >> unfortunately not man caves, but i am thinking a lot about the debt. here we are down to the wire, rome burns and boehner hedges his bets, but speaking of hedges and bets, a major stakeholder in this debate is conspicuously quiet. i'm talking about the organizations that stand to lose big if a debt deal isn't reached. private equity funds, investment

banks, commercial banks, insurance companies. you and i stand to lose plenty, including retirement and college savings if not our own jobs, but the captains of industry stand to lose a lot, too, so where are the fleets of hear jets for meetings with congress to urge an end to the bringsmanship in an -- the financial firms know how to turn on the juice when they want to. remember financial reform or the health care debate? the big boys mounted a major campaign to influence that stuff. we're talking media, grassroots, lobbyists. washington hadn't seen such a staging since general ulysses grant marched the army down pennsylvania avenue. we know that business can influence those house republicans. right now there's a spat going on between t. boone pickens and the koch brothers over natural gas subsidies, the kochs have

ordered abandon machine of is the bill. so where art thou now, help minks? where haas thou gone, big big? big bankses? bring back your lobbyists, your pr firms, your grassroots advocates yearning to bill more in fees. why won't the industries that stand to lose so much from house republicans intrance gens work to avoid their own losses? i think i know. nobody likes to admit a mistake. many of those organizationses helped to elect this tea party crowd. could it be they have buyer's remorse? if so, don't worry about it, guys, we forgive you. please, please by helping save your own skin and ours in the process. talk some sense into those house republicans. dylan? >> how much of the cognitive dissonance that you reference with the tea party crowd do you think is actually everywhere,

there are people on the democratic side that expected a tremendous amount from this president and can't reconcile the attractive nature of hi rhetoric with the incredibly offensive nature of hi policies? the tea party crowd can't reconciles that? are we at a point -- it's not just forgiving the business businesses, it's almost as if everybody has to forgive everybody and say, listen, we all expected a lot from everybody, it was all a load of crap. >> no question. >> and we now have to deal with it, so can we please. >> i'm just pointing out one phenomenon. big business knows how to make their will felt. what i'm sensing, they're almost in observer mode instead of participant mode. a lot of people called up washington and said when the president said, if you don't like what's going on, they did and it melted down the switchboard. so i'm asking, why are they n