the 216 votes needed to pass a revised debt deal. good thursday afternoon from a rather warm new york city. i am dylan ratigan. nice to see you. five days away from the potentially disastrous treasury deadline. they could move it, fiddle with it. a lot of thing koss happen. two hours away from the house vote on boehner's two-part deal, an extension, another debate next year. the speaker met with freshmen member on the republican side today. pre-vote arm twisting. as we watched the pro wrestling play out, remember, none matters because the senate majority leader vowed to defeat the boehner plan coming out of the house as soon as they get it. the white house threatening to veto it either way, will also get in this show to some of the real solutions to the long-term deficit crisis our congress is ignoring either because they don't want to deal with it or are paid to avoid it at all costs. first, to the pro wrestling we go, nbc's loudmouth luke russert!

speaker boehner dubbed limb as such today on the capitol hill. luke, no nickname whatsoever, and incredibly gel us of your new status as the loudmouth on the hill. how does it feel? >> reporter: you're the people's champion. >> appreciate it. it needs to come from speaker boehner. you've got the status now. >> reporter: we'll tell him in give you one. >> me and viqueira will have to cry about that. >> reporter: the billion dollar question, whether john boehner can get to 218. it's unclear. we expect the vote to come in around 215. speaker boehner was probably meeting with members an hour ago off the side the house floor twisting arms trying to get to this number of 216 votes. certainly a lot of confidence. spoken like it will happen, get out of the house.

why that's so important is that house republicans need leverage to go against harry reid, against president obama. it if it doesn't pass today they essentially have lost their seat at the negotiating table because speaker boehner has not proven he can pass any debt limit through the house that is acceptable to democrat. harry reid said senate democrats will get rid of this as early as today. they're going to table it, so what we're seeing now on a timeline sense, dylan, is this will then go into negotiations. most likely over the weekend where mitch mcconnell becomes the kingmaker. does mitch mcconnell fight harry reid say the only bill republicans support is the boehner bill or say, you know what? tinker with your bill. get bipartisan majority in the united states senate. send it over to the house and then pass republican and democratic support. you could lose republican conservatives on it who are very upset. make sure the boehner bill is the last one standing they're hoping.

and that's where we stand now. the last hurdle, it actually has to pass. we'll see the answer to that question around 6:15 p.m., dylan. this can go to the very, very end. this, don't be surprised if this goes to monday or tuesday. >> totally got it. everybody understands available financing for the united states government has never been more abunda abundant? >> correct. >> reporter: there's a sense of the august 2nd deadline being very important because of what the market has done this week. >> yes, but the bond market, which is where the government bar oes its money, is open for business. >> reporter: correct. >> there are trillions of dollars available, if you simply pick up the phone and call goldman sachs. they can arrange financing. >> reporter: correct. >> it's important to make that clear. this is a political decision to not borrow money for default. not a lack of available financing causing a default. >> reporter: the people's bonds are open, dylan. there you are. >> indeed. somebody's bonds are open. thank you, loudmouth luke

russert. i wonder what our friend republican senator tom coburn thinks not only about the boehner deal but the fact dealmaking has left principle, has really left idea, has almost left mechanical solution and has simply come down to a short-term deal where the debate is whether shue have the vote, a second vote, i should say after whatever this is, before or after the presidential election? so let's get this straight. we've got massive unemployment. we've got trade extraction, bank extraction, energy inefficiency. you know the narrative. and this debate has devolved into a debate over whether the second vote should be had before or after next year's presidential election? it's not even a debate of ideas at this point. it's merely an exercise in political power between two parties trying to acquire power. i know that's -- we know, we know, we know. this is probably one of the best

manifestations of that known phenomenon that i've ever borne witness to. i'm certain it irritates senator coburn and a few others even though i haven't talked to them. you know, senator, of course, sometimes a gang of six, proposed an idea based on principles, ideas and mechanics worth $9 trillion. you may not agree with some of it, at least has those aspects. senator, how did we get to this point? >> how did we get where we are? >> the only thing we're debating a short-term deal and whether we vote again before or after the presidential election? >> well, first of all, it's not unusual to have six-month debt limit instructions. something like 18 in the reagan administration. that's not unusual. and that's a big deal by the president only based on election cycles. that's not important. the more important thing, how do we get to the point where we send a message to the international community we're going to do what's necessary to put our house in order. >> do you get the sense that

that's going to happen? >> oh think so, ultimately. you're seeing a lot of theatrics. everything kind of play out and the way it's going play out and not find where people really are until they have to be where, before this thing implodes and i don't think it's going to. i think you know, come tuesday, sometime during the day tuesday, we'll have something figured out. >> well, do you have any sense, play analyst, if you wouldn't mind, whether that's the boehner deal? is that your deal? where's the road map for that? >> it's some combination between what perry, reid and boehner agreed to last sunday, and working the politics and the votes out on that to get it to where it passes the house. the problem is, something will pass the senate. but it has to be snag will pass the house, and it has to be -- has to fit over there, and i heard luke talking. if it's something that passes

with, you know, the majority of democrats and a few republicans, i doubt that that's going to happen, but that's a possibility, but we're not going to let us default, number one, and i doubt that we'll go past and even if we did go a day or two, the fact is they're having enough revenue increases to go a day or two or three or four more. >> is that most important message because of all the hysteria? >> yeah. look -- there's hysteria out there because people don't like the unknown, but the unknown really isn't the most important thing. it's we're going belly up and passing this extension doesn't help that problem, and until we get everybody talking about the right thing, which is how do we downsize and scope and in breadth and excess, the federal government still meet the needs of those depending on us and do it in a way that allows to to continue to borrow until we can

finish doing the downside, that's the important thing. it's not what the house can pass what the senate can't pass. it's not all this game that is hyped up, and you know, the congress always does what is necessary when it runs up against a deadline. so i have no doubts in my mind. i can't be 100% sure, but i really don't have any doubts that something will happen before tuesday evening or whenever the last time is necessary for something to happen. >> have you contemplated how you were vote on the boehner or reid plan and care to share your thoughts with us? >> i haven't decided because i don't think either will be the final thing. >> if you were to look at your proposal or some of the other grangain the 4 trillion, 5 trillion, 6 trillion dollar deals, the simpson bowles stuff, will that come back for further debate? where do the big ideas stand jnchtsz look, dylan, somewhere in the middle we have, as

country, have to meet. we know we have to do certain thing. so whether you have is a 90-day extension to the debt tlamt rise as certain amount and then we come back, and debt that set up. but there has to be a reformation of the tax code. there has to be entitlement reform, and there has to be significant changes in discretionary spending. everybody can say they don't want that to happen. i don't want it to happen necessarily, but it's got happen for us to be, have a future. so at some point in time, whether it's three months, six months or a year's too long. because if we wait a year, it will cost uses 3ds trillion over the next ten just in interest costs. we can't wait. >> yeah. >> and what s&p and moody's and fitch are waiting for, waiting for the senate we're 23409 going to behave like the politicians. that we're going to make the grown-up choice. even if that means somebody like 3450 me, i'm not run, but if i was running it would cost me a

seat. isn't that bet for the country? do what is necessary to fix the country. >> when you look at the, our acute issue, unemployment and ng market, that resulted from the financial crisis, collapse in revenue. you look where that revenue came from. the trade and banking reforms of the clinton era, ruben nomices that unleashed a pile of funny money spent enjoyably by all sorts of politicians on war, medicare part b, all sorts of things and then we watched barack obama come in, instead of reforming up the ante on both prior policies. how are we to inspire the confidence of people in our leadership if we can't acknowledge how we got into this situation in the first place with the collapse of the -- the financial collapse and unemployment, which really is at the core of our acute suffering right now? >> i think we contrast that behavior with what we care most about, which is sour families. our future. our kids and our grandkids. and the freedom that we all

enjoy. and we start drawing the contrast. this is what's at risk with this stupid actions. you know, when we create a 12 trillion dollar unfunded program, medicare part d. to not put a funding source, i've not voted for the supplemental war because they weren't paid for. we didn't cut spending somewhere else to pay for it. we have to have that contrast drawn and americans have to get. they're making fak sacrifices for theirs families rye now. the fact we have a tug-of-war that we want to continue to grow the government instead of shrink it. i agree we can't shrink it too fast. that will have a negative impact as well. that's going to come. the question, the languager we wait the more painful and the harder because we're going get a downgrade if we don't make the proper choices. >> two last questions for you.

i agree with what you're saying. do you believe that we can get past the concept of us and them? rich and poor, republican, democrat, who can prove to a postpartisan place which is really what the rhetoric you're talking about reflects, where we are actually working as a group with the knowledge what we're trying to do is hard? >> yeah. i think it all depends on real leadership. principled, courageous leadership that says, the number one thing that's important is our future and our country, not my party. not my election. and you have to have that demonstrated by people in key positions. and if they lead on it. look, there is no question we're at one of the lowest taxation flats a long time. how you change the revenue to the federal government, the best way to do that is grow the economy, because get all sorts of other benefits from it pshgs but there's no question there's stupid stuff in the tax code where we have selected out speck winners that ought to go away and we ought to as republicans antz conservatives say i'm not

ashamed to ai'm going to take that away. it's wrong. it's no appropriate given where we are today. so, you know, i just think standing up for what you believe and what you know this country values are. i'm amazed that the number of letters i'm getting right now. i put out that back in the black. >> yeah. >> deal, which cuts a lot of things. a lot of people write me and say, what you suggested will hurt me, but it's okay if it fixes the country. rime getting all sorts of letters from my constituents. ship a that say, how dare you? the vast majority understands we have to do that. >> at least i would say, senator, we'll leave it here, your proposal frames the magnitude of the conversation we need to have at a number closer to actually what has to be had. i really appreciate that. >> it does. thank you g. to talk to you, senator coburn. as the clock ticks towards the next vote, the boehner vote in the house, a step back and put it in context with our mega panel. and plus the murdoch dynasty on

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as we get closer to that date treasury department will explain how it will manage a situation that is essentially an impossible situation. >> as you can see, contingency

plans in motion if they don't get a debt deal at the oval office before tuesday. senator coburn is confident they will do that pt treasury has a plan what they could bo including who will and count get paid in the event this happens. the white house will make those available as early as tomorrow night. they would wait until the financial markets closes for the week. hopes are you heard from senate coburn we won't get to that point. nbc's mike "no nickname" viqueira. >> reporter: how are you? g. senator coburn says quite confidentially government and the president love as drama. but he believes it he get done and isn't going to look at the boehner or reid plan. thinks it won't happen. i'm going to wait until tuesday and see what comes out of the blender, but they are doing triage right now in the event they cannot pay.

correct? >> reporter: and you know, look at this and say, this is spin. an effort to bring more pressure on lawmakers by brandishing this sword here of prioritizing. let's remind people, every dollar the government spends, 40 cents is borrowed. we are looking at a dramatic situation. i'm sure you've gone over that a lot on your show. >> go ahead. >> reporter: well, i was going to say, the white house, contrary to all that has been reluctant to talk about this. very sensitive. jay carney, we saw in the sound bite earlier said, yeah. conceded a couple of weeks ago, it would be irresponsible as we approach this deadline not to start thinking about how to prioritize that. part of this is that they want to keep the pressure on lawmakers and not give them any out or sort of alter the dynamic of this debate in any way, shape or form. >> just from an information standpoint. the way a conversation like this goes basically is the reason the bond markets and the financing markets are always open and we can always borrow money, the interest on the debt is always the first thing we pay.

look at the triage. they're basically guaranteeing the bond holders get paid the interest and the military gets paid and then you start to get into what do we do with social security, medicare and everything else. is that fair where are the we've heard the figure $70 million, the government writes, veterans benefits, right on down the line. again, you know, i asked jay carney this directly today at that briefing. i asked him you know, as we get closer to august 2nd how are are prioritizing what you're thinking about here, and is august 2nd the drop-dead deadline? lots of murmuring. you heard senator coburn say the government could go on a couple more days. august 2nd is the deadline and don't want to backslide from that. >> thank you, mike viqueira. so many plans, balances all over washington. contingency talk on wall street. can they defer liabilities?

it all boils down to this -- we have bills to pay. s 3$306 billion are due in august. we have $172 billion on hand. we'll be able to borrow if we want to borrow. nobody's worried about that, but we're up against a political barrier. the so-called debt ceiling, that's being used as way to prevent borrowing to advance a budget war. the budget war's a welcome battle. we need the conversation about the chronic debt in this country, but forcing a conversation about chronic debt when we have an acute problem, like a broken leg, which is unemployment, is like telling an overweight man walking into an emergency room with a broken leg that he's got to lose weight. by the way, if you fix the leg, the jobs problem it will help us lose the weight, the debt

problem. so we've got an acute problem. 20% real unemployment as a result of the result and the financial crisis, housing crisis, the rest of it. corrupt government, blah, blah, blah, but before we do anything we must first address the jobs problem. that's the acute problem, but not through the traditional lefty democratic response which is borrow money and spend it. we have to actually look at the root. is money coming into our country or is it leaving our country? we need 20 look at bank reform. we freed to look at trade reform and we need to look at much-needed changes in the tax code that will actually drive capital into america and create jobs in america that neither this president nor the republican leadership have any appetite to discuss. joining us, however, with lots of appetite to discuss our mega panel. karen finney. republican strategist susan del percio and washington insider jimmy williams. susan, why can we not get a

conversation? i don't know the answer to some of these things but would love to have a debate about trade, taxes and banks as way to get this prosperity back into this country. >> because you're almost a year away from an election, dylan. it's not going to happen. unless things get so, so bad. until you hit 10% unemployment, see $5 -- no politician will take the risk to come up way plan they could potentially fail at come october. >> karen, it's clear. we talked to senator coburn who says very ex-less plicitly, no . come up way deal tuesday, will have to vote on it. he believes it will do it because it's absurd. the congress when they're back to the wall will do it. and we perpetuated this thing without ever having any of the real debate all of us are so desperate to get our teeth into? >> that's exactly right, dylan. i applaud your presentation in the the beginning.

one thing i wand to add. >> please. >> we talk about 9.2% unemployment. the urban league pointed out, a conference in boston this week. the pew center put out a poll this week that showed the disparity actually between white americans and african-americans and latinos has actually grown, and when you look at african-american unemployment, we're talking 16%. we're talking in ages like 18 to 24, 31% unemployment. so when you talk about the acuteness of the problem, sometimes these numbers, the surface numbers don't actually even really show us what's going on, and as you know, as i've been harping on, the conversation going on back there behind that building behind me is so disconnected to things like 16% unemployment among african-americans. >> they want to talk about how your overweight and walked into the emergency room with a broken leg. jimmy what are you going to do? >> karen's right about the

building behind us. if we default, why don't we just not pay members of congress and their staffs? i think that -- >> start with them. >> if they sat around on their asses 20 months i would love to not pay them. i actually bet they'll get a deal. say they don't do that but get a deal. >> coburn serious, they'll be something. >> i think tom coburn is right. i actual aagree. he's part of gang of six's they prose good stuff. but you asked about creating jobs. the only thing that my friends on the right and our good close personal friend grover norquist who everyone seems to think i'm close friends with now, everybody is talking about tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. i want to remind me. i love history. in 1981, ronald reagan with a democratic house and a newly republican senate passed a massive tax decrease. slashed rates by 23% across the

board. unemployment went from 7.6% to 9.7%. 1982 -- >> i got it. >> you get the point? okay. so -- >> your point is that the tax code has limited or no correlation to employment, which makes relative sense. i want to take a break. keep you guys. i think we made the biggest point which is you have the acute problem, which is the up employment and forced to deal way chronic problem for political purposes and it's insulting. this is the mega panel that stays. if you want to see what a real debt deal or a real debt debate might look like, check out our blog this afternoon. the real debt deal at the newly redesigned dylanratigan.com or follow us on twitter at dylan ratigan. as we take a moment, a great lake with the panel. the next conversation here, the dynasty in danger. a break from the debt for all of us for a second. a new legal investigation and critical board meeting. the latest tests for rupert

murdoch's empire. our specialist worked with the man and weighs in on him, his son, and the future of journalism in the context of the scandal. con nuous amounts. only one calcium supplement does that in one daily dose. new citracal slow release... continuously releases calcium plus d for the efficient absorption my body needs. citracal.

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the future of the murdoch empire mving from one disnunkz system to another. a british judge opening a new inquiry into the mass phone hacking scandal. hacking victim, governments to get information, blah, blah, blah. this as the board of british sky broadcasting met amid intense pressure, might imagine, to oust chairman james murdoch, which is rupert's son. he survived the vote but can murdoch's legacy survive this? and between the media and the government. joining us now andrew neil former eder of murdoch's at the "sunday times" an original rival and partner. a man with nor information than

the rest of us. a clear point of view. >> i might not be saying very much. >> fair enough. >> but you do clearly have a point of view. >> sure. >> how would you have voted at that board meeting today for james murdoch? >> i'm with the bbc. i'm not aloud to vote. he survived for now but not in the long term. rupert murdoch has always wanted to create what we call a dynasty. i remember sitting eating dinner with nim london in 1988 and he explained then he ho would put his three kids in the company to fight for the top position. rename it murdoch corporation. that's how much he wanted it to be a kind of die nas tick operation. looking at the wreckage, most think that is gone. >> none of the kids? >> none of the kids. >> the investors will put up with rupert murdoch because the company wouldn't exist if it wasn't with him, but not the second generation, one more question and i'll release the panel on you.

wild dog, i tell you. what is your sense of the business practices and culture, if you had to guess, as ho to whether the murdoch family, rupert and the family were aware, how do they function? >> aeft speculation james murdoch was involved in a cover-up being investigatened atted hush money paid to keep things quiet. as for mr. murdoch, i'm not sure he would know what was going on. he certainly denied it, but he created the cull dher whose logical conclusion was hacking into people's phones. >> why? >> because he believe above all us in a tabloid journalism, where you took no prisoners. >> scorched earth. >> destroy the opposition, no one would get a story ahead of you. he encouraged it. he defended it. he fostered it. when i worked for him, the only harsh words i had with him when

i criticized the tabloids and he would come on to the phone from new york or los angeles and start being grumpy and unpleasant, because he saw himself as the last defender of that style of journalism. >> susan? >> clearly the murdoch corporation has been run by him with an iron fist. and so the question i have, if his family isn't going to take over, if his son doesn't last much longer, what happens to the corporation? can it really run without that firn fist at the helm? >> here's a radical idea. the investor, shareholders take over. the people who actually own the company. >> are you mad? are you a capitalist? f. want to make the hard choices. >> a real business. >> they're real businesses. nothing wrong with the business. at the moment, there is what you call a murdoch discount. the news corp. share prices underperforming because of the situation where the chairman and the ceo is the same person and they're in trouble in london.

if you ran this as a business, first thing you would do is sell the london papers. share price goes up 20%. next thing do you is you turn 2, from being a family xbi a proper public corporation. you would then be aloud to buy the rest of the big satellite system, 30 billion pounds overs 20ds billion. the share price goes up more. job done, give me the dividends. >> your point, the right executive with shareholder authority. carl icahn or his equivalent uses that, a rater type, i have no idea, but basically the opportunity to realize value by restructuring and manifesting these assets is enormous? >> if you stop running the company as a private and ran it as a properly run public corporation, with the amazing assets that it has. >> spectacular. >> it make as ton of money and the share price much stronger. >> karen, go ahead. >> i mean, here's the thing. it goes back to something you were just saying before in terms of the culture that has been

created. clearly this kind of behavior is acceptable. how much of the specifics murdoch did or didn't know i think is less, in some ways less relevant in that clearly the people under him who got the message. the bottom line is what matters. take no prisoners journalism is what matters. the question i have, we keep stopping at murdoch and the investors and we see it time and time again. with major corporations, that deniability. they're happy as long as the stock is performing well, as long as the business is doing well obviously the stock isn't doing well now. i have a hard time believing there wasn't knowledge that, yeah, there might be things going on we just don't want to know about as long as thing are going along smoothly? >> well, in the hearings in the house of commons -- >> conscience denial. >> yeah, well willful denial. >> right. >> which is what brought enron down. if you should know something and

consciously decided not to, that is illegal if you're running a public korgs. i think there could be -- people think -- this will all come out. this company has, these investigations are all over it. judicial investigations. others coming down the road. not just do to with newspapers. there is a test in britain. if you want to have a tv broadcast license, and it's called are you a fit and proper person? and as the weeks and months go on, and the police investigations bring out the behavior of news international as it's called in the uk, then the chances are it will be seen that they are not physical and proper persons. society chance of him getting the remaining 60% of sky tv that he doesn't have, that's not going to happen. the risk is, he could lose the 40% he does have and the shareholders of news corp. are not going to be happy with that. >> andrew, absolute delight to make the acquaintance and spend a little time for you. you create a clear path forward for the business and

shareholders. not one that includes the murdoch family. >> let's see if it happens. >> a pleasure. enjoy the rest>> i will. i love it. >> andrew neil. jex -- next -- >> hmm. beer. >> we know what homer likes. but what's america's favery drink? we'll tell you after the break. this is my band from the 80's, looker. hair and mascara, a lethal combo. i'm jon haber of alto music.

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i hope we gave a little lessen to the people in washington, because the debt crisis was a little easier to fix than this deal was. >> yes. washington stuff, child's play compared to the millions of fantasy football owners that now face unadulterated chaos. with the nfl lockout ending, a frenzy where their favorite players are. where they are going. and who they can draft for their team. usually by now it's almost august after all most fantasy coaches have picks in place from watching training camp in the spring. with the real world chaos, the lockout, all this, fans relying on the internet for research and all at the last second and weren't of the experts they're going to, matthew berry, lead fancy sports analyst at espn.

how can i pick when i don't know which teams the players play for? >> you're not drafting now. ideally, waiting as possible to draft, it's hard figuring where this guy go. depending where he lands, his value to be very high or very low. you try make your best guess. we have an idea where a lot of people will land. kevin kolb deal, rumored a long time. the stock of larry fitzgerald goes up and kevin kolb, drafted where as he wasn't backsup to michael vick. >> how much of a screw job is everything in terms of setting up the whole season between now and the end of august? >> it's not that bad. it's certainly a lot of information to process and i'm on twitter and tweeting all the time and we're updating our video and our podcast on espn.com and guys like adam shactner i work with, working 24 hours nonstop.

in terms of setting up your league, it's okay. we're luck any that the lockout ended when it did. if it ended three weeks from now, we'd have been really in kind of a, up the creek without a pattal, so to speak. i think we're okay. the dust will settle here in the next week or two and then it will be business as usual for august. >> basically, if senator coburn, who was on to talk about the debt ceiling at the beginning of our show was correct they'll get at least a short-term deal on august 2nd or shiortly thereafter, it will get worked out. basically the nfl did that. did it at the last second but not enough to screw up everything? >> yeah. we were in a spot, is there going to be a season or not and actually spent the summer ass e assuming there was going to be a season unless we told not to. once we got the green light from nfl. great. here's our draft pick. here's our projection and everything you needdough. we were ready to go. we luck any the sense we were

sort of prepared. listen, you know, we're happy that it happened at the very beginning of august as opposed to at the end. >> before i let you go for all the pafantasy football fan, principles for this year's draft and any particular players or situations to look out for? >> just a couple of overriding themes. right? number one, i looked at something in my draft day manifesto, leave it or not on espn coin, i looked where the points are distributed and you need an elite quarterback. there's seven this year i think you really want to get one of those. a lot of people say, quarterbacks, let's wait on quarterback. actually not the case. those quarterbacks return their invest much more frequently than running backs and wide receiv receivers. if you can't get michael vick, my number one quarterback, brady, rivers, you want a lot of running barks and wide receivers. guys lake darius, they pop

during the year. not sure who they are. the more opportunities you have panning for gold, that's important. and wait in the last round to pick a defense or kick perp specifically, there's not a lot of difference between them week to week. we've done studies. the numbers are out there. don't waste earlier in the draft pick on a kicker or defense. >> why is it better to wait for your kicker? that confuses me. >> because the difference between the number one kicker, the highest scoring kicker in fantasy last year and the number ten kicker, which would be you know, in a ten-team league, the last good night you wouuy you w two points a game. statistically, not big difference and hard to predict who the kickers will be be week to week to week. last year the number one kicker, sebastian. kickers are hard to pick. specifically with the game. it doesn't make sense

statistically to draft a kicker before the last round. >> good explanation. >> the numbers don't add up. >> a reason for what you're saying making everybody that much happier. thank you for your time. matthew berry out of espn. "the dylan ratigan show" the only place to get bond information and fantasy football information and a conversation -- well, with our next guest. somebody in the comic book business. first, coming up on "hardball," counting down to a vote on the boehner plan is expected at the 6:00 hour. asking whether any plan good get through congress. the coburn bill, not until tuesday. next, making gods of men. forget ideas and mechanics. what about our principles? from batman to wonderwoman. learning -- how to live by better principles from our favorite superheroes. grant morrison, our guest to come. nstipated? phillips' caplets use magnesium, an ingredient that works more naturally with your colon than stimulant laxatives, for effective relief of constipation without cramps.

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well, the battle between good and evil, ekoch liptic scenario, stunning plot twists and int.r.e.a.d. crcredible ille integrity, reliability, honorability. we're not talking about -- talking about comic book. just for our entertainment. superman, bat moman. there to honor principles. joining us, the best contemporary comic book writer on the planet today. that's an introduction. grant morrison joins us.

>> now what do you mean when you say we can learn here? there's meaning in this? >> well, one of the thiessen e wrote the book, we're growing up in a world where the mass media, the story children have been told, we've all been told, a story of ecology doom and extinction of the human race. i felt that was a dark story to learn. and the way super heroes, this comic book heroes following along with our culture the last 70 years has resonated to grown-ups in the last ten year. characters that once belonged to geeks or outsiders are now common currency. we see them on our billboards in our senate places. my feeling was that these heroes like they always do, in an emergency. the emergency is almost psychological emergency for our

culture and we're returning to the bake ideas of optimistic and positivity and over human future where we may actually survive and fall through. >> heroes often exhibit behaviors like resolution of difficult problems in an honorable way? >> absolutely. a character like superman is, a character we can -- superman beats everything and does it by using the correct use of force, and he's an idea we created to solve any problem. my suggestion is that maybe if we start thinking a little bit more like these guys, after all, question create them. maybe we can land something. as you see, the positive values, the integrity. the way we deal with the responsibility of power, and i think it can teach us. >> you hit on, at least for me, the most important point.

which is, what ask the base narrative, the storytelling, whether the hans christian andersen sense of that word for the role of people with power and what -- i think about malory and king arthur and having a clear, a clean heart in order to remove the sword from the stone, in order to have power, you have to model a humility and service to society. it's as if they knew the dark ages when writing these stories if the strong in society were not modeled to serve the society but simply to use their power for consumption and preservation, it would destroy society. >> absolutely, that's true. again, with superman we're seeing a character who devotes his power to the society and superman was created in 1938. the creator, the champion and the hero of the down trodden who stood for the people. stood against big business and against corrupt government and against all the forces that

effect the common man. affect the common man. and after that the great american heros have been gangsters or code boys or frontiersmen of some kind. superman is a very different science fiction, therefore in a progressive world what it would be like. superman is in humility. doesn't want to be thanked. does the job, moves on. he loves the job, cares for people. as an imaginative -- go on, yeah? >> do you think that, unless we have a base narrative for the values and principles of those who are the custodians of power in our society, whether it's businessmen, whether the movie stars, whether it's the government, that teaches that those with power must use the power to serve the interests of those who have less power, that they are banned effectively from wielding that power for purposes

of personal gratification or impulse, that that is the critical line that must be drawn? >> yeah. i agree with that. it's a lovely fantasy. it would be nice if we could convince our people to abide by that. sadly, unfortunately, as i say, what we live by, one of destruction and one of ecological disaster and a lot of people absorbed that to the extent it can be quite anihilistic. we have to convince ourselves and hypnotize ourselves there is more to the humans and the human project than simply destruction and exploitation and greed. because that won't take us very far. >> i could not agree with you more. i am an admirer of yours and obviously an advocate of the message you are carrying in your words and in your appearances. the book is called "super gods." grant morrison is the author. "what mass vigilte