hello. ah! if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well, i guess it must be a duck, and in this case that duck an 11th-hour deal announced by the president to raise the debt ceiling and prevent a default has left many on both sides of the aisle deeply dissatisfied as congressional leaders rally support to push it through congress. whether the bill will pass remains unclear as does the precise timing of the vote-taking. we have a close eye on capitol hill, and indeed, we expect the action to begin in the house perhaps in the next few hours, but what we do know is that the plan includes $900 billion in spending cuts to e be gin with and debt ceiling extended by $900 billion likely good beyond the 2012 election and vote on a balanced budget amendment, and the formation of a so-called super congress a bipartisan group of lawmakers to locate up

to $1.5 trillion in cuts by thanksgiving. failure to reach agreement would trigger cuts of $1.2 trillion for military and domestic programs, and the scenario neither side wants to see. of course, there is some reluctance from both sides and president obama called the negotiations quote messy. senate majority leader harry reid said he is not reready to declare victory, and vice president biden working to win support among the undecided democrats expressed guarded optimism about the framework. >> they expressed all of the frustration, which i would be frustrated if i were sitting there as well that we take it down to the wire like this, and so what they want to know is, they asked questions specifically about the proposed legislation. the proposaled legislation. i thought it was a good meeting. i feel confident that this will

pass. >> and as for the republicans, we expect to hear from house speaker john boehner shortly after a meeting with the gop members, and remarks we will carry live. perhaps sweetening the deal for uncertain house members we are told if the house passes the bill tonight, they will begin a five-week recess immediately. nice work, congress. of course, no one knows the ins and outs of the the sausage making process quite like our own capitol hill staff, so i am joined by nbc's kristen welker at the white house and msnbc's luke russert on the capitol hill, and first, luke, we are hearing that some democrats are beginning to rebel against the framework, is that right? >> there is a lot of angry house democrats. i spoke to a few of them coming out of the meeting with vice president joe biden which was described as quite a somber affair, if you will. joe biden essentially telling the house democratic caucus, look, this is the best we could do, and hinting that the debate was really framed by republicans

saying we will not compromise, and if you guys don't give us what we want, essentially, we are happy to go all of the way to the brink of default, and then biden also said as we cutted away that the gop kind of sees themselves now that they kind of see themselves as a continuation of reagan revolutionaries and it is very difficult to do business with them. i heard a lot of the house democratic members got a lot off of their chest and expressed anger saying that the administration had told them out once again, and they had gone way too far to the right to cater to the gop and should have taken more of a stand. nevertheless, it still looks like they will, some of them at least will try to support this final deal, but the question becomes, martin, how many votes can nancy pelosi and steny hoyer get. >> and we know that the magic number is 216, isn't it? >> yes, 216. nancy pelosi has not been avertly positive about this deal, and she is sthag sill say

that 12450e is she is undecided but doubtful she will go against the president of the united states. and john boehner had difficult delivering numbers last week for a republican plan to get to 216, and we expect if john boehner can get the votes he needs, it is between 120 to maybe 140 house republicans. therefore, you are going to see steny hoyer and nancy pelosi to come up with 90 democrat, and i heard out of that meeting that some folks saying, well, we have 60, and everyone else is opposed to it, and nay is pelosi and steny hoyer are talented vote counters, but if they have to get to 90, they will. >> well, it will be close? >> yes, 216 is the number and 220 is what they are aiming for, but come around 7:00 tonight, we think that the vote going to be very close in the last minute, martin. >> thanks, luke.

kristen, president obama last night in announcing that deal had been reached, thanked the american people for helping move this debate along. but he's also just dispatched the vice president, has he, to try to make sure that the democrats fall into line. >> that is absolutely right. vice president biden has played a really big role in in terms o negotiations over the weekend talking to mitch mcconnell and harry reid and john boehner, and vice president biden playing a critical role. you heard him at the top of the show saying he expressed confidence it will be done, and white house press secretary jay carney said he believed l it wi pass through two chambers, but as luke said, it is a long road ahead, and we could potentially have a long night, and we will have to wait and see. the white house is busy to defend this plan saying it is a true compromise, despite the fact that there has been quite a bit of pushback from the

progressives and democrats who say that the president gave up too much. they say too much government spending being slashed and no new tax revenue essentially, and the white house saying, look, we had to compromise, there is the potential for reform to the tax codes with that bipartisan committee in the future, and they say it was a messy process, that this is the best deal that both sides could come up with. >> and kristen, we know that the left in the extreme sense and the right have both been annoyed and irritated by this framework. but according to a recent poll, there is a decline in independent voter support for the president as well, hasn't there? >> well, right. you know, the president would pushback against any notion that the white house would push back against any notion that the president has been diminished by this, but you are absolutely right, martin, we have seen the polling numbers going down and that and that is why themeis fr that while the process was messy, this deal is a good one and point to the fact that it

wouldn't touch social security, that it wouldn't have an impact on medicare beneficiaries, so they are trying to frame this argument, and to create a narrative especially as we head into the 2012 election. martin? >> kristen welker at the white house and luke russert at the capitol hill, thank you very much indeed. for more on the agreement, with me is jonathan alter, and msnbc political analyst and author of "the promise" and joining me as well is analyst pat buchanan. and pat buchanan, no new revenues and the tea parties have won, and you must be happy? >> yes, and the hobbits are returning to nail the koonskin on the capitol hill wall. well, they got new tax revenues and the debt ceiling raise anded and some budget cuts, but i agree that the budget cuts are not significant in the early years and we have to do a lot

more to avoid a default down the road. >> but, pat, how can you say they won when senator lindsey graham said this is a $3 trillion package to still allow $7 trillion to be added to the deficit over the next ten years, so that the deficit issue remains a problem will, don't it? >> well, that is a hellish problem for the united states and i agree with that, but whereas the democrats, they called it a satan sandwich, because they gave up so much, the republicans and the tea party are saying that we didn't get enough. there is a difference. the republicans won, and the conservatives won, but i agree that the country is in very serious trouble. if you see what happened last week where growth basically in the first two quarters was under 1% that means in the coming year we won't get the growth projective which means that the fiscal year debt next year is larger which means we have not done much of anything of the deal to reduce that deficit or reduce the long-term debt despice this convulsion of the

last month. >> indeed, jonathan, he is right, isn't he? you can agree with that? that is the fundamental problem. >> pat and i certainly agree on this, but it was a hostage-taking situation and it is like somebody compared to somebody who has gone on a diet and the diet fails, so they put a gun to their head and threaten to blow their brains out, and that is what the republicans were doing to the global economy and putting the gun to our head saying we will pull this trigger if you don't do what we want, so put yourself in the president's shoes and it is hard to negotiate under those circumstances s circumstances. the fact that the democrats lost on revenues is true, but you have to look at the larger picture on january 1st, 2013, the bush tax cuts are expiring and no way to prevent that unless there is some kind of big tax reform compromise. >> unless president obama loses the election? >> no, he is president-elect at this point and they expire and the democrats don't have the votes to get the tax cuts back,

a those are gone and that is hundreds of billions of tax revenues with le be getting. >> jonathan ability the tax c--, ability those tax cuts, that will be an issue ability the extension of the tax cuts and if you think that the democratic senators those up for re-election are going to block that and obama is going to say, i'm going to veto those, and make those taxes go back up all across the middle-class and everyone? i don't think so. i think it is going to be a showdown and we have seen obama tend toss tbama tend toss to tend toss t capitulate. >> well, assumption he caves on everything, but if he loses, he for sure will let them expire and unlikely that a lame duck congress in the period of the election and the inauguration will take action. remember, it is easier to block something than to do something. so, with the great likelihood that the taxes will expire.

>> but if you get a president mitt romney and he wins, you will have a republican senate and house and if obama lets the tax cuts expire, they will come back in on january 20th. >> no, they won't, because they don't have the 60 votes to get them back in on january 20th in the senate. >> and you think that the democrats would then block that, too, after they lost the presidency? >> yes, tax cults for the ri cu you are ignoring how big this bush tax cut is for democrats, pat. >> well, you are talking about, jonathan, costing tax cuts for t the working class and the middle-class if obama lets them go under. >> well, this is an important thing for democrats, and very -- >> quickly. >> in january and february of 2013, there would be the votes there to restore the tax cuts for the middle-class, but there would not be the votes because of the filibuster to restore them for the wealthy. >> jonathan alter and pat

buchanan, thank you very much. >> we shall see. >> thank you very much for joining us. >> next, we do the math on the bill that may cut too close to the bone for many on the left. stay with us. riding the dog like it's a small horse is frowned upon in this establishment! luckily though, ya know, i conceal this bad boy underneath my blanket just so i can get on e-trade and check my investment portfolio, research stocks, and set conditional orders. wait, why are you taking... oh, i see. hey max, would it kill you to throw a guy a warning bark? [ dog barks ] you know i wanted a bird. [ male announcer ] e-trade. investing unleashed. excuse me?

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congress attempts to count up the votes and conservatives are already griping that the debt deal does not do enough to cut spending and while the liberals are grousing that president obama did not fight hard enough for increased revenue. so who is in the deal and who is coming out ahead? for expert analysis, i am joined by washington post ezra klein who is also an msnbc policy analyst. good afternoon, ezra. >> good afternoon. >> and people are dividing up the political winners and losers, but i'm interested in the economy, because we have had to revise down economic growth

for the last quarter, so how is this deal likely to affect the economy? >> poorly. it is a sad commentary on the state of american politics today that our two options here were a debt default to send the economy into a complete unnecessary manufactured crisis and a debt deal that would rip support out from a struggling economy and impede growth going forward. that is pretty much what we got and it is good we won't have a debt default, which is important, but the main things to the economy is what is not in it. in extension of unemployment which takes $60 billion from the jobless, and no extension of the pay tax cut i which takes away $1 trillion in working class family support, and there is nothing here to aid the recovery, but only a beginning to austerity measures. >> even as you speak, we are watching the images of the house from debate ongoing. and in terms of those believing in raising revenue and those who

want to cut the taxes, is it not possible today for both to claim victory? the former, because the bush tax cuts are now likely to expire, and the tax cutters, because the president has failed to include any revenues in this deal -- so everyone wins? >> i think that's quite right. although i think that the question is what happens to the bush tax cuts. i don't know if i e woucould go far as you and say they are likely to expire. the president obama administration has not been friendly to expiration, and they are interested in the revenues, but the you talk to them and watch them, they don't want the revenues that much, and they don't want the fight over taxes, because it is a stale debate and they prepare for the win the future agenda, and what you do have and what is lucky for folks who want more revenues, boehner refused to take the tax cuts off of the table and take $800 to $1.2 trillion in revenues and they could have gotten $3.2 if

they let them expire, but saved the day because they wanted the big plot for it, but boehner said, no to the white house, because it may be bad for the 2012 prospects bush if you think we need revenue to maintain a facsimile of the government in coming years, that is what they needed to do, but it is not to say they won't fold on them in 2012 when facing them. >> and it seems surprising in a way is defense spending which is taking the biggest hit of all, $350 billion in cuts immediately with a further $600 billion in the next ten years. >> the key political dynamic that created the deal here was that there was a question on the table which is how do you do a ball lan ballanced approach? and the thing that both sides agreed on is to substitute in defense cuts. what they got here was significant defense cuts so essentially within the manner of a couple of months defense went from something thatis

sacrosanct in defense spending to that defense is the single biggest loser in the deal by far and if the trigger goes off as you mentioned they will be facing $600 billion in cuts and full one of two dollars cut would come from the pentagon which is a staggering hit on the pentagon. >> it is incredible. a final question, ezra, as you look into the future, do you agree at some point all sides will start to look at medicare as the program most likely to be cut? >> what's the old line about the future? predictions are hard about it. and medicare and medicaid and the american health care system is where the money is. ultimately when you talk about the long-term deficit, you are talking about getting system-wide health care spending under control, but medicare is tough for either side to take on in a serious way and you won't see the democrats do it if the republicans don't consider revenue and you are not seeing the republicans consider

revenues, so i cannot figure out the array of forces to get you to a large deal on medicare. >> ezra klein, thank you for your expertise. >> thank you. and next, super congress has a sort of comicbook quality to it, doesn't it? stay with us. just one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day helps defends against occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas and bloating. with three strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon. you had me at "probiotic." [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health.

we are keeping a close eye on developments on capitol hill as the house and senate move toward a possible vote on raising the debt ceiling. a major component of the 11th hour deal is the creation of a so-called super congress, a select group of lawmakers and evenly divided from the senate and the house and republican and democratic parties, responsible for carving out another $1.5 trillion in spending cuts. if the group fails to make its recommendations by thanksgiving, a reduction of $1.2 trillion in savings split evenly between the military and domestic programs

would be enacted automatically. for a body politics so often scorned for the american public, that is quite a responsibility. so what kind of group might be up to such a challenge? >> gather together from a cosmic reaches of the universe here in this great hall of justice are the most powerful forces of good ever assembled. dedicated to true justice and peace for all mankind. >> of course, as we have seen in stark detail being friends is not exactly the strong suit of this congress. and we invite all of the super friends to follow us for the latest on our show at twitter at twitter.com/bashirlive or like us on facebook at

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has given us money to reinvest back into our business and help quadruple our floor space. how can the plum card's trade terms get your business booming? booming is putting more music in more people's hands. in the next few minutes we are expected to hear from house speaker john boehner as he expects to get support for the deal. and both sides fought hard for the debt ceiling deal, and slash federal spending. president obama said it is not the deal he preferred and may prove to be a bitter pill for those who pushed for weeks for spending cuts and real increases from the wealthy and big business. >> before we cut our education for our children that we first must cut subsidies to big oil and corporate jets.

>> that was congresswoman kathy hochul a first-term democrat from new york and i am delighted to say she joins us from capitol hill. good afternoon. >> good afternoon. >> we heard your impassioned remarks demanding more revenue from big oil, and what is your reaction to the deal today and that speaker boehner describes is full of cuts, but no revenues? >> well, that is absolutely correct, and i am very disappointed, but here we are staring into the edge of the abyss and it is not the 11th hour any longer, but the 12th hour and one foot over the edge. we cannot wait any longer. the republicans put us in this situation and it is wrong that we had the sword dangling over our head and i will vote and do the responsible thing which is to save this country as many democrats will have to do to save the country from default and make sure we pay our bills on time, and really stop this cataclysmic event which would occur if we didn't take this

action today. i think it is wrong and so do at love people in the democratic district that many in the time of this time of deficit that the republicans are not paying the fair share in the form of corporations and there is at lot of unfairness, but we have no choice. this is where we are and we have to take the steps in a couple of hours. >> and you say you have no choishgs but th choice, but this discussion is going on for six months and you have been brought into the position now i fully accept, but do you think that the president might have done more this the period of six months to help prevent yourselves feeling like there is literally no alternative except to accept this deal which you have just said on our broadcast you don't like at all? >> well, the president has been engaged a couple of weeks ago and many democrats like myself who would have supported the plan he put forward that was would have had $4 trillion in deficit reduction, and a combination of the majority cutting spends, but also revenues and closing the tax

loopholes. that is a plan that people got up from the table and pushed it away and said not a part of it. many times the democrats have been and the president and the vice president and engageded all along and certainly in the last couple of months. i have been here since june 1st and that all ki speak to, but they are heavily engage and trying to get a better deal, but they don't want to be the ones who oversee the collapse of the economy and the republicans are willing to push us over the edge and the democrats will come together and stop that from happening. >> and i understand it is just the first two months, and your special election victory was hailed as a big win for the democrat and support for these programs so how did we get from there to here and a deal with $22 billion in student loan cuts and no new revenue, and how did we get here? >> well, first of all i don't care welfare and medicare a welfare program. >> forgive me. that is a british speechism.

>> okay. well, in our country, those are not entitlements, those are something thatniors that people have paid into since their first job as a high school student. yesterday i had a town hall meeting with 6,000 people participating in my district, and they are concerned that we don't cult the beneficiaries and hurt medicare as we know it. it is very much part of the program. we did not give in on that, and we will support this plan, but you cannot touch benefits to medicare and social security and that is a takeway from this, and in my judgment that is a win for democrats, because we held firm to the core values and concede into the republicans who want to go to a voucher program and tell the seniors that the promises we made 46 years ago literally last week, and those who supported me in the election on those issue, democrats and republicans, and i brought it to washington and i'm proud that the democratic leadership did not let that happen in this deal even.

>> thank you, kathy hochul. >> and we are expecting speaker john boehner to come to make a statement at a microphone in a moment, and people are gathering, broadcasters and cameras there, and we will bring it to you live as it happens. when the dust settles on the debt crisis, where will this leave the president and the party as they face the challenges of 2012? new signs that independent voters are losing their enthusiasm for president obama, but will the support recover as we move away from the rout over the debt ceiling, and joy ann is here from thegrio.com. i want to play something that the president said and then to hear your comment. listen to this. >> is this the deal i would have preferred? no. i believe that we could have made the tough choices required on entitlement reform and tax reform right now. >> is this a deal which frankly

fails to satisfy anybody? >> yeah. martin, you hit it exactly on the head. the incredible thing about this deal is the extent to which both sides really blinked. democrats failed to get any tax revenues in the deal, and failed to really utilize the leverage with the bush tax cut reformation, and specifically, a call to the news outlets, and the democrats are trying to pushback with people's unhappiness with the deal, but the things exempted from the triggers, nothing on medicare beneficiaries and nothing on medicaid, and social security completely exempt, and nothing on the temporary assistance of needy families and those things were shielded in the deal. so if any good news for the democrats, low income folks were shielded from the triggers and this deal refused to address social security or medicare at all and two percent cap of what may have happened to the

proamount that providers get. so they both walked away from the structural things and focused on the present spending, and even that is meted out over ten years. >> we know that the debt ceiling debate is going to pass over the next election and it will occur again in 2013, but isn't that election now becoming a huge argument about what we want from our government, from our state, the role it should play in relation to the entitlement programs? >> right. i think absolutely right. the 2012 election becomes the referendum and regardless of what happens, because the tax cuts are going to expire in 2013, january of 2013, and now we can have the big debate of whether or not we want to do across the board, and let the bush tax cuts expire and what to do on taxes and what we want to do and government's role to be and that election is crucial, because if you get a more republican senate, you have the possibility of even more draconian cuts and more democratic house or the democrats take back the house,

you have opportunity to get more revenue. this is a critical election. >> i should explain to the u veers, joy ann, that we are waiting for house speaker john boehner to come out to address the media and he is expect ed t give a press conference at any moment and we will continue to talk for the moment. i want to quote to you what paul krugman wrote in "the new york times" saying that republicans will be emboldened by the way that president obama folds in the face of the threats. he surrendered last december surrendering the bush tax cuts and surrendered in the spring with the attempt to shutdown the government, and now surrendered to the raw extortion over the debt ceiling. is this patently surrender on the part of the president? >> well, this is like rope a dope with muhammad ali. john boehner had to limpp away with $33 billion in moving the money around. if you look at last december, the supposedly surrender there

ended up with extension of unemployment benefits and including "don't ask, don't tell" that the liberals wanted so i would have to say that the president won those two showdowns, so if that is surrender, it is done in a way that the republicans think they get something, but when the tea party members look at the deals, they see they got rolled. they got rolled in the spring and looks like on this, this is $914 billion in spending caps which is not sounding like the cuts that the tea party went in for. >> and you know that the independent voters according to the most recent polls are beginning to walk away from president obama. is that not a worrying sign for him? >> absolutely. that's the audience rather than progressives as angry as the progressives are, that is the audience he is playing to. when you look at the sausage making, and trying to get deal out of congress, it diminishes the president because of the appearance to manage these people, but once the deal sets in, you will see a stabilization for the president, butt i'm not

so sure about the tea party, because they came out looking terrible in this. and he is going to set himself up for e re-election in 2012. well, we were expecting john boehner to address us at 2:30, but it is 3:30, and is he twisting arms and serving pizza? >> well, yes. he cannot rely on nancy pelosi to come up with 80 or 90 democrats, and he has to do better than he anticipated less than 24 hours ago and he might have to get as many as 150 republicans to get this over 2 top. i don't think that nancy pelosi wants to win this one for him unless she has to in order to prevent default. you will only see her step in and lean on the democratic caucus if john boehner's back is to thele wa a-- to the wall and he can't get his own people, and

then she will come in to save the united states from default and also saves john boehner's speakership, that puts her in a stronger position than if she was, you know, coming up with the votes right now. so, the pressure is on boehner to get as much of the caucus as he can as nthey go into the big vote. >> well, you must have the midas touch, because we are told it is two minutes before speaker boehner comes out. but i want to ask you about the magic number of 216 and again, how will that divide among democrats and republicans? >> well, you know, it looked like, i mean, the calculations yesterday were a little bit different, and it seemed that b boehner only needed to get sort of a half-plus of his caucus in order to get enough democratic votes to get this done, and therefore, he could basically write off the tea party freshmen, those 87 who might not

be too happy with the deal at this point. >> jonathan, i have to interrupt you. speaker john boehner has come into the podium. along with some of the congressional colleagues. here he is coming to the microphone. >> good afternoon, everyone. the president asked for a increase in the debt ceiling and i made it clear that there is no increase in debt ceiling without significant cuts in spending and changes to the way we spend the american people's money. shortly after that, i was in new york and gave a speech and outlined that i thought that the spending cuts should exceed the amount of the debt limit increase and there should be no taxes as part of this agreement. when you look at what we have been able to achieve, we have met those two standards that have been outlined. it is very consistent that

america has to deal with its spending problem and deal with the fact that we have made promises to the american people that our kids and grand kkids cannot afford. and in addition to that, we have listened to the american people who have a real interest in making sure that we don't get into the spot again, and that we ought to have a balanced budget amendment to the constitution, and i think that if you look at the, the structure of the ball lansd budget issues s is i s s balanced budget issues in the agreement, it is the best shot in the 20 years i have been here to build support for a balanced budget amendment to the constitution to put the kind of fiscal handcuffs on this congress that are sorely needed. if we had been operating under a balanced budget amendment, we never would have gotten ourselves into the mess we are in. but this is really important for our fiscal future, but it is important also for the fact that our economy needs to get going.

beginning to take steps towards fixing the fiscal problems will in fact provide more confidence for employers in america, and the people that we expect to reinvest in the economy and to create jobs. >> the house will vote on a measure today that although not perfect will begin to change the culture here in washington. for too many decades now on the part of both parties, this town has spent money that it doesn't have. and by sending to the congress this year 87 new republicans, the american people have actually changed that, and have changed the direction of this country. now, it is said that the bill is not perfect, and it is not, but change in the way that washington spends taxpayer dollars is often like redirecting or turning an aircraft carrier, it is a monumental task. i think that in my experience

throughout the last couple of months, i have been involved in a lot of discussions surrounding this issue. and from day one, this administration has been insi insisting that we raise taxes in order to solve this problem. i think that the big win here for us and for the american people is the fact that there are no tax hikes in this package. with so many people out of work and the middle-class hoping for more jobs, the last thing we need right now are tax hikes. i am told that the leader on the other sidef of the building, the majority leader went to the floor today and indicated that somehow i had changed my position on, that and i can tell you flat out, he is wrong. i insist, again, that now is not the time for us to be considering tax hikes when it is over 9% unemployment and too many people out of work. that was house republican leader eric cantor in the press conference and before him john

boehner and eric cantor saying a big win because no increases in taxes repeatedly saying that this administration had wanted to raise taxes, but for us, this is a big win. jonathan, also, your reaction to what eric cantor has just said. >> well, i think that he is right. if you look at their position before this deal came down, the president wanted what he called a balanced approach with some real cuts in spending and some real increases in revenue. and now, contrary to what eric cantor said, it wasn't like those tax increases were going to be effective immediately in the middle of this economic downturn. they would be effective later to try to recoup the revenue that pretty much everybody on both sides who is a serious budget expert believes you need some revenue increases in order to reduce the deficit. now, that the thing that cantor did not mention is the way that the deal is set up, the

so-called super congress, and the super committee will revisit all of this all fall, and revenue increases will be back on the table. so, it is not like the president lost on this in any permanent way. he will be back to fight for another day for revenue increases. >> luke russert is there on capitol hill and joins us now. luke, you were listening to john boehner's comments and he started by saying in the first very week of the speakership, he made it clear if he was going to raise the debt ceiling, then there would have to be cuts. >> absolutely. part of that martin, is to try to show how far this debate has come that president obama wanted a clean extension of the debt ceiling, and that he immediately as speaker said that would not occur and trying to work against it. the most interesting thing though that he said, martin, is when he spoke at length about a balanced budget amendment. >> indeed. >> that is a direct attempt to try to cater to the tea party part of the conference essentially saying, hey, look, i

know this is the framework of the cut, cap, and balance deal that we tried to pass a few weeks ago, but this balanced budget amendment is the best chance in the 20 years i have had for garnering support for it and saying to the tea party folks, hey, come on board and if you extend this plan, albeit not perfect, we will try to pass it down the line. >> and indeed, speaker boehner actually said we never would have gotten into this mess in the first place had we had a balanced budget amendment. >> correct. >> you know -- >> and that is the code word for the tea party balanced budget amendment. so, they will try to grab that. >> and jonathan, you were laughing at that? >> yes. say we had a balanced budget amendment when we were losing close to 800,000 jobs a month and headed for another great depression, and by speaker boehner's terms we wouldn't have had any government effort to help end -- >> nothing.

>> -- that end depression and does he think that the country would have been better off if the congress had been handcuffed and unable to take any measures to fight a coming depression? i think that we would be in a depression right now if there had been a balanced budget amendment in 2009. >> indeed, jonathan alter, and luke russert and

i'm brian sullivan with a cnbc market wrap and stocks all over the map as we await the big debt ceiling vote. the dow swarm add total of 284 points up today triple digits at the open and fell triple digits reaching the 12,000 mark earlier

in the session. now we have stabilized a bit. up 3.5 points. again, martin, all ahead of that debt ceiling. the market clearly not knowing which way to go. a wild day, kind of emphasizes what's going on in washington, d.c., martin. send it back to you. >> thank you. the tea party is getting credit for driving the republican agenda on the debt crisis. if the deal passes as currently structured is it really a win for tea party conservatives or seen as caving to speaker boehner and the more mainstream gop. michelle from the "daily beast." delighted she joins us. here wrap your colleague wrote about the tea party's influence. "many of the newly elected republicans are indifferent if not hostile to the wars in afghanistan and iraq. they're happy to cut the defense budget, especially since it makes it easier to persuade democrats to swallow larger cuts in domestic spending. barack obama may be president, but the tea party is now running

washington." do you agree? >> well i think what you can say is they're clearly running the republican party at this point. i mean, by any meshaler th meas in and twisted arms and changes the outcome of this debate. >> you heard eric cantor at a press conference in washington talking about the fact that they've won. >> exactly. i mean it is definitely, cantor and the entire leadership's interest at this point it get in and push the line that the tea party influence had a lot to do with this. again, in part, this is because from the view of the tea party, remember, this is a movement that is all about purity, and this is not the kind of structure of the deal that they wanted. so they could be really ticked off about this. >> michelle --. right now the leadership has to kind of push the notion they want it. >> stay there for a second. we're going it listen to john boehner again. one mohammed. >> -- signed into law to solve this debt crisis and help get the american people back to work.

>> there we are, michelle. that was speaker john boehner saying he's getting the debt crisis behind him and wants to get on with creating jobs, and getting the economy going again. but is this deal going to make any difference to the economy? >> well, this deal isn't going to put the debt crisis behind us on some level. what they're doing is punting. we're going to have a super congress come in. we're going to debate this, and they'll be talking, and nobody's still dealing with things like entitlements. as we've heard, tax increases will be on the table going forward. the idea that this has solved anything in the big picture is completely just bizarrely optimistic. >> indeed. strange, historical revisionism from some member. for mow, michelle cottle, thank you very much. we'll be right back.

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it's time now to "cleared air." thankfully we're coming to the end of six months ever arguing over a subject that many of us knew very little about until recently. now, what everyone is talking about. ♪ raise the debt ceiling >> we've heard from everyone in this. the vice president lady series of meetings until eric cantor had a temper tantrum and stormed out of the talk. speaker john boehner and theatrics of not one but two bills which he new full well wouldn't pass on the senate because they were dead on arrival. now, after six months of squabbles a framework is in place we hope will win house, senate and presidential approval. and avoid an historic first default in the history of this country. i wish that we could say the same for the average american

who's been struggling these past six months to avoid a personal default of their own. but the facts speak for themselves. in the last six months, foreclosure filings reached 29% compared to with last year. and according to realty track, one in every 111 households in america has received a foreclosure filing. during the last six months the national unemployment rate has risen to 9.2%, but that figure hides a multitude of trouble with individual states. by june this year, unemployment in nevada was at 12.4%. in california, it's 11.8%. and in south carolina, it's at 10.5%. all of this in the last six months. what these facts tell us is that this row about raising's debt ceiling has doning in for ordinary citizen. the behave e of an extremist

group of ideologues in the house prolonged and exasperated an issue that should are been resolved months ago. in those six months instead of focusing on keeping americans in their homes and at work, the congress has been stuck in a state of inertia, held harsh by lawmakers described by senator john mccain as hobbits. on the score in the last six months, here it is, a final calculation. the hobbits won and the country lost. thank you very much for watching. dylan's here to pick things up and take us forward. dylan, all yours. >> my imagination was wandering. a vision. i was having an experience. hobbits and this whole thing, very nice, very good storytelling on your part. i'm feeling it and appreciate it and thank you for the vision. >> have you heard tokenlkien's book? "lord of the rings"? >> yes. with the rg