viewer, not a drunk or nursing mother. >> outrageous. thinking viewers are not welcome here. drunks, insomniac, nursing ins mothers. there's no more room at the inn. "morning joe" starts right now. her presence here at the chamber as well as her service throughout the entire of congress brings honor to the chamber. we're privileged to call her colleague, some of us privileged to call her friend. throughout america, there isn't a name that stirs more love, more admiration, more respect, more wishing for our daughters to be like her than the name of congress wochl gabby giffords. >> the reaction in the chamber was the most enthusiastic kpub ren, exhilarating.

we're all crying. thrilled. we knew she would make a triumphant return and we knew her and predicted that it would happen. and i felt like there are so many doubters and skeptics, but never doubt gabby giffords' determination. this is first of many votes that she's going to cast. it is tuesday, august 2. welcome to "morning joe." >> what a great job? >> incredible moment last night. that is about as good as it gets. yeah. >> what a great, great moment. >> with us on set, we have national affairs editor of new york magazine, and we have the msnbc political analyst and visiting from nyu harold ford jr. >> what did you think of that

moment? you know a lot of times if you read between the lines of some of these stories, it seems like some of the reports may have been overly optimistic. i must say, i was surprised by just how good she looked. and to sort of respond the way she did to everybody. what a happy, happy moment? >> yeah, you know, it was the kind of thing where sometimes when you're watching coverage of something, it's overkill because we roll it and roll it. i could watch that video again and again and again. it brings so many -- >> it's the opposite for me. i was switching around the channels, right? i saw everybody rise. and i was like, okay, take the gifford shot. even at home, i'm the director. take the gifford shot. do you wonder what the parliamentary procedures are -- the people on air took them like

30 minutes to figure out why they were clapping. go on and -- because without knowing she was there, she was there. and willie, when you saw it, man, it's just great. >> chills, chills. and the reports we got from the floor of the house is that she was going around to her fellow members and calling them by name. she recognized everybody. she was hugging them. she exceeded everyone's expectations of where she would be less than seven months after she was shot in the head in tucson. >> a little perspective amid the craziness here in washington. >> better than most of us do on most days. >> thanks. >> in the blessing business. >> that's what i keep trying to tell you. >> pastor ford over there. >> okay, so she got to vote and, harold, the outcome? wasn't even close. >> no. it was not. hopefully we'll come to your

political piece this morning. your analysis is better than most. these things happen in washington. we survive, we move on. i do hope -- i heard on willie's show. i think some of the criticism of what passed last night is a little overblown. i can understand the politics, i don't think it's -- it's gaudy as he wants it to be. the argument should turn to jobs. i hope the argument we had over entitlements and spending will have to deal with it again. the american people as most are concerned as the show said again and again about the economy, what we do to extend job stimulation and what we do to extend big money on the balance sheet of this corporation. >> that's what the president and congress has to do. what did you think about last night? were you surprised the vote was as close as it was? >> you mean not close. >> were you surprised it was not as close? >> we talked about there would have to be a lot of people left

on the book, left and the right to vote against it and you'd end up with a margin because politics suggested that people on the left and right would have to stay away from this thing. half of the tea party voters voted on the bill. >> i would support it -- >> half and half. >> i was very surprised by that. they suggested to me that maybe they left some substance on the table. he could have passed this -- it's possible he could have gotten a little bit more to speak to harold's point, a payroll tax cut extension, you know, some more on unemployment insurance. you might be able to slip a little pit more. the margin was enough -- >> lyndon johnson always hated to win by large margins. >> right. >> he didn't -- he left something on the table. that said, willie, the stakes were so high at this case, you just wanted to get over the if anyish line.

we didn't know it would turn out like the first vote. >> you said this morning, you better pass this bill. there was question of whether people would come around. they did by wide margins. the question is, what does it mean for the economy if we put the politics behind us. you said maybe it's overstated by progressives how damaging it is and gutting and key programs. >> first of all, let's have a reality check here. first of all, this thing doesn't cut it. it cuts a trillion dollars over ten years, over ten years. you know how fast washington went through a trillion dollars? just like that? they extended the bush tax cuts and unemployment benefits, as far as the debts, the actual debt goes, willie, this does absolutely nothing. first of all, let's be honest, anybody who says it does and is just lying. secondly, anybody who says that this is the end of the -- the right is saying this is the -- come on! all we did here is, yes, maybe

we kicked the can down the road but we made sure the world markets didn't open 30% down this morning and 9.2 unemployment didn't go to 5.2% unemployment. >> something goodwill come out of the committee? >> even if we do, $1.4 trillion and the debt grows. >> you just created the room for the debt cerealing to be increased without adding more to the ket. >> debt. >> i guess standing in place based on how badly we've done in the past ten years, standing in place may not be a bad thing. >> this is the first time -- >> acting like both sides. this is the end of the world. >> this is the first time the debt ceiling -- we were there for ten years. never passed the debt ceiling and found cuts to -- >> i like that very much.

>> but you're not going to -- which is why jobs and the economy have to be the focus now. >> a trillion dollars over a decade's time is nothing. >> it's just a trillion dollars in a decade's time. the cuts are very minimal over the next two years. >> right. >> and i was with peter orzag last night, the head of the congressional budget committee. he said the contractual effects in the next two years are almost nothing. a huge opportunity may have been missed here in terms of all of the issues we talked about here, entitlement reform, tax reform. perhaps on the stimulus side, you might say, we should have done more stimulus, those are opportunity costs but not actual negative effects on the economy over the next two years. >> one issue they tackled for the first time, it sounds like, defense. >> big chunk. >> an automatic cut if the committee can't -- >> no doubt about it.

i understand why some of them are upset because the martians could invade at any time. we need to have a bigger defense budget than everybody else on the planet, because when they come, we want to make sure to have our radar gun technology ready. >> zap em. >> not just a bigger defense budget. you need to have it bigger by orders of magnitude. two or three or four times bigger than anybody else. >> let me ask you guys on the table around the table this question. did you know this week last night both sides were on the supercommittee what they could and couldn't do? they can't raise taxes. the white house said they're not touching medicare or -- think ear lying. you are on the air lying to america's face just to pass this vote as if you don't think that after the vote comes, we can't single out the vote.

why? both sides are bald faced lies. you know this can't do anything that you don't want it to do. how stupid do they think we are. >> a super committee that's powerless. step back on this. let's talk about super committee. who are these people? what is it? >> an enforcement mechanism. >> very exciting word. almost as exciting as infrastructure. they set it up. it's a bipartisan committee to try and establish what the cuts would be, am i correct? and if they cannot agree, automatic cuts have to go into place. >> the entire congress has to pass whatever the committee agrees on. and they're going to have the key issue with that is who gets selected to be on the committee. >> is anything left out of the across-the-board cut that are automatic. >> i think they specified

broadly about half of it is domestic and half of it is going to be from the defense department. >> automatic. >> 50-50. >> is there a deadline by which they have to make these cuts. >> november 23, the recommendations are from the congress from the committee and then you have automatic cuts. people who want to protect the defense, presumably the republicans and the entitlements, the democrats. they want to find some compromise to allow the cuts on ooitever side. >> let me say one more thing, brother orzag last night who knows more about this than anybody at the table saying that the trigger is airtight. a lot of people wonder, will it hold, is it serious? he said on his inspection, it's going to be a pretty hard trigger. >> deacon orzag. i hate to bring it up.

everybody is calling republicans terrorists and nazis and fascists and stalin and hitler. the main stream media seriously -- it's joe biden. did joe biden call? >> he denies it. >> he's denying he said that. >> four democrats say he did call republicans terrorists. i hope that's not the case. that would be dreadful for the president of the united states to be saying that. absolutely dreadful. so with that precursor, let me ask this question -- if you're a republican in the house, how do you vote against this bill? how can you vote against -- listen, i just said, it doesn't cut that much, but you're running the country. i think every one of the republicans voted against the bill. let's start with michelle bachmann need to go on the campaign trail and explain to us the economics of allowing the united states of america to default on the debt obligations which were racked up in large part over the past decade over

the republican leadership. profiles encroach harry reid coming up quickly supporting a bill he did not like, as many house democrats voted for this as voted against it, if i'm sitting there taking note as a small government conservative that the democrats are acting like grown-ups, i've got to say, there's got to be independent voters that noticed the same thing. charles krauthammer, the conservative's conservative saying pass this. you've got "the wall street journal" saying, we don't like it. we're small government people. they are so conservative. nobody is so conservative as the editorial page and krauthammer. i would like the republicans who voted against the debt ceiling to explain themselves. >> this is a satisfying experience. they're flat earthers. they believe that the debt ceiling is meaningless and all of this talk about apocalypse

and catastrophe and the damage, that's not true. that's what they say. >> wait a second. >> tim geithner is lying. this means nothing. >> are you saying -- are you saying that they're taking the same exact position as paul krugman who's a flat earther this morning saying just let it go. >> anybody who said default wouldn't be terrible for this country is out of his mind. >> were you surprised that he didn't let the vote go through? >> i'm only not surprised because he's tended to head in that general direction for a while now. >> nobel prize winner willie geist saying, oh, just vote against it. we didn't know what was going to happen if we default. seriously. that's -- he and michelle bachmann should have a party. >> this is america. >> he's from the progressive side.

michelle bachmann without offering information has been on the campaign trail saying let it go. when asked? we'll be fine. >> speaking of irresponsible, harold ford, we've got to talk to you about mitt romney. mitt romney said he would vote against -- he would vote against the debt ceiling. >> he said he would vote against? he said he was in favor? >> no. >> came out against the deal? >> against the deal just in time. and so he's saying if he were on the house floor last night, he would have voted to allow the united states of america to go to the first default in history? >> a lot of dell cats were on the air last night saying, you know, the bottom line is that a lot of republicans were holding this bill hostage, i'm sorry to use the words that our parents did about cutting the baby in

half. >> i can handle biblical rechbss better than al qaeda references. >> they would have. >> how do you negotiate with people who would do that. there's your answer right there. you cannot criticize the president when he's dealing with people who would do that. >> you can for lack of leadership. >> mitt romney hurt hymn. >> he showed lack of leadership. >> he's perceived -- not only did he do that, he's perceived as the adult in the room to look at the republicans running and to step back and step into the camp of bachmann cannot make him be the bigger thinker in the room. he suffered on this. for him to recover, he's got to turn to the economy and move forward and bring republicans around the issue. >> i believe romney is not in the camp of saying it didn't matter if the debt ceiling is raised. he did not like this deal.

key pritt call objectives, one of which is he won ownership of this deal. >> it should -- you know what, though? in the stage we were in yesterday, if he didn't like it, he should have kept his mouth shut. because, hold on a second. at the same time that john boehner and mitch mcconnell and harry reid and barack obama are working their as off to save this country from default, mitt romney on the sidelines of new hampshire saying vote against it? he's sending that message. he's providing cover for republicans to vote no. to democrats to vote no. at that stage, if he didn't like it, he was willing to be quiet. >> what makes it worse in a lot of ways is you went to the entire debate. so you then go under the very end and does this unhelpful thing. the opponents on the republican

side and the white house in the real life election of the presidents are saying this shows you mitt romney is the same old -- >> mitt romney, 2008. >> no convictions, no core. >> whoever advised mitt romney to go out yesterday when the markets were teetering and looking to see if we're going to pay our financial obligations in this country? >> he's supposed to be the business guy. >> he's supposed to be the business guy. whoever recommended we come out and say i vote against this -- that person should be fired. because you know what? you showed how -- how much the debate -- >> who knew they had so much in common. coming up, the so-called gang of six, we'll talk to senator tom coburn about the -- ♪ all over the land >> as well as john thune of

south dakota. do this while you listen to them. representative wassermann schultz to talk about gabby gifford's appearance on the house floor last night. >> can i go on? >> no, please, stop. up next, politico takes us behind the scenes of why vice president joe biden was so critical in reaching a deal. but first, let's go to bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> we got to share some of our meds this morning. good morning, everyone. temperatures continue to be the highlight of the forecast in the middle of the country. nasty thunderstorms rolling through areas like long island. a pretty rare event. clear skies this morning. today will be a nice day. hot once again around dc, new york, philly, low 90s, lower humidity there too. great lakes, watch out for thunderstorms this morning. heading for chicago later today. talk about hot. look at kansas city, 107,

dallas, 108. it's like the desert in the middle of our country. we are tropical storm emily. if you're in the southeast from the carolinas, florida, or even georgia, we're going to watch this storm system heading your way this week. we looks like we have to deal with emily this weekend. details as they come in throughout the week. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. hi, umm this other store has these for 20 cents less. what?! -match it! -match it! -match it! -match it! -match it! -match it! -match it! -match it! -match it! -match it! -[ horn honks ] -match it! thank you, got it.

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nearly $1 trillion of immediate cuts, a debt limit increase of $1.2 trillion. and a bipartisan committee agreeing to another trillion and a half. >> that's a -- they must have forgotten to add "and with the

new balanced approach to deficit reduction forged by rational adults, there are revenue increases closing the budget gap whilst preserving some vital government functions." can we roll the clip of that, please? do we have the clip? say it again? really? oh, the skunk with its hand in the peanut butter jar? no, it's not the one i wanted but i'll give it a look. i'll see it. >> adorable. >> time to take a look at morning pape earles. starting with "usa today," processing tax refunds for fliers who bought tickets while taxes were suspended. the faa will end. the agency could remain in limbo until after the august recess tossing the government about

$1.2 billion in uncollected airline taxes. >> rhode island city files for bankruptcy. the motto, "the city with the right future." it comes amid growing fears that we can see increase in local defaults, and bankruptcies across the country. "chicago tribune," the obama administration says it plans to require companies to provide birth control to women at no extra cost. currently women pay as much as $50 a month for birth control pills even when they have insurance coverage. a setback for honda. the consumer report says the honda civic is no longer on the recommended list due to a series of factors that include how well it drives and the interior quali quality. the news is the civic has, quote, decent leg space in the back seat. and a report says if you hit it

from behind, it doesn't blow up. >> stop it! >> now i have to clarify that the assessment by consumer reports is not a safety. it's more about how the car rides. >> how it rides. >> that ain't nothing. >> stop. >> progress. >> let's go to politico. >> we turn to the politico playbook. mr. vandehey. >> he's a grim lynn guy. >> i -- i can throw the civic in the back of the f-150. >> very good. >> all right, let's talk about the deal behind the scenes deal that you guys have been doing a lot of reporting on that. and specifically about the role of vice president joe biden. how important was he to getting this done? >> he sort of stole the day yesterday. the was the hoopla over him engaging that conversation in the meeting with democrats about calling tea party members

terrorists. >> terrorists? >> three or four members were in the room talking using a precise language. we read it pack in engaging in that conversation. so that -- >> he denied it at the cvs by there are four democrats. >> trying to clear denial. >> did not a clear denial. >> not a clear denial to me. my understanding is he used those words in talking and repeating what members of congress are saying in that meeting. that on the bad side. on the good side, white house officials and congressional officials go to the game and walk people through the deal and how it came together. everybody is portraying biden as being central to that. mitch mcconnell didn't want to deal with the president on the end game. he wanted to deal with joe biden who he's known for decades who he trusts and can cut an honest deal with. look at "the new york times," politico, others, biden gets a lot of credit for pulling together that deal in the end. ironically, a lot of democrats

who didn't get biden involved in the beginning of this process because we think he talks too much and is too easy to cut a deal with. >> mitch mcconnell said before, he didn't know if a deal was possible as long as barack obama was president. you get mitch mcconnell talking about joe biden. he's like, that's a guy you can deal with. no doubt that mcconnell and biden and reid did this still. >> he spent a lot of time on the phone. >> every key juncture, joe biden has been in the middle of it. a lame duck session early on in the administration, a key, key player in terms of dealing with it, especially with the senate. >> joe biden in the campaign was a punch line. he is -- he is -- he's the most critical part of this administration. >> he knows it players. comes down to personal relationships. knows him better. >> and how it works with decades of experience. >> how the game works. we were talking about mitt romney. a lot of people disappointed that he dove in in the last

moment coming out against this deal. he's been, up until yesterday anyway missing in action. what's his strategy now through the campaign here. >> ben smith pointed to a great term called the mittness protection program. don't see him anywhere. not just saying anything yesterday when he came out against the deal but not campaigning nearly as heart as huntsman, pawlenty, and others doing 1/3 of the events. raising money, trying to get the commanding edge on the cash front both in his own pack and the outside pacs that are affiliated and trying to stay low while the others tear each other apart. may be an effective strategy. a lot of republicans are wondering if it speaks to his lack of willingnd to have fight in the heart and go after obama. i think so far it seems to have worked for him. he does well in the polls. he's seen by the establishment as one of the two or three safest republicans to run

against obama come general election. >> you made the point yesterday that some people are concerned that mitt romney's plan, four corners here, taking the air out of the ball. >> yeah, you know, it leaves you -- jim is right. it served him well up to this point. you can see particularly around this debt ceiling vote, other republicans, huntsman in particular right now starting to criticize romney. he's the front-runner. front-runners are always the target. he escaped that in the first seven months of the year. not that much longer. one the engagement begins, he has to get out there. he's too much incoming. >> is he showing up at any huntsman rallies? is there any energy at all? you guys have been to new hampshire, iowa? >> he's been doing a lot. he's campaigning in a real way. he's up in new hampshire almost all the time. that is not rallies. he's doing house parties. been to a bunch of them. a couple hundred people, 50 people, 30 people, whatever.

>> what's the buzz up there? the buzz before he got any is this guy is elvis. now the buzz is he's elvis' -- >> i think it's a bad -- it's a bad thing. >> i don't know what he is. >> the buzz on him is -- the buzz on him is still low. the interesting thing about new hampshire right now is how much the buzz is -- how loud the buzz is for michelle bachmann where people talk about the possibility of bachmann or perry to be a figure to sweep through and knock romney off from the right. >> jim, is barry going to run? >> i have no idea. he certainly looks like he wants to run. he'll probably get in. he could raise a ton of money. i like you remain skeptical that once he gets in here he could sell himself in suburbs or sell himself in any of the northern states and if he doesn't get in, that will be the reason why. because he knows his appeal might be limited only for the very conservative elements for the party. i don't think that's going to cut it. >> somewhere, james brolin is

wheeping. >> jim anaheim, a look inside the politico play book. still ahead, nicolle wallace will join us on set. also, opinion writer for "the washington post," ezra klein. and up next, the race in the al east heats up. red sox and yankees. plus, rex ryan shows off his new tattoo, what? we'll be right back. [ p.a. announcer ] announcing america's favorite cereal is now honey nut cheerios! yup, america's favorite. so we're celebrating the honey sweetness, crunchy oats and... hey! don't forget me!! honey nut cheerios. make it your favorite too!

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some big sports news. former giants star plaxico burress is returning to new york to play with the jets. playing for the new j-e-t-s -- [ gunshots ] >> that's just wrong. that's just wrong. >> welcome back to "morning joe." >> we're talking quickly. >> supercommittee. >> they can vote for entitlements which they'll have to approve or disapprove.

>> the point is -- >> not my point. >> the point that harold is calling attention to, if the supercommittee fails, either to reach a conclusion or congress doesn't approve, when the automatic cuts kick in, the entitlements are off of the table. the domestic piece of the automatic cuts leaves untouched social security and medicaid and it can do -- it can cut medic e medicare, but only for providers and beneficiaries. >> right. >> there are no -- >> but the supercommittee can propose changes to spital m. >> supercommittee. >> yes. >> few more closings. >> but it doesn't allow for much. >> yeah. >> willie geist at the sports desk, how are you? >> losers. >> good-byers? >> let's turn to some sports now. >> randy moss the most dominating wide receivers in the history of the nfl when he wanted to be has decided to retire after 13 seasons. he took the nfl by storm when he

was drafted by the vikings in 1998. he had a career year actually in 2007 with 23 touchdowns while he and tom brady led the packs to the super bowl. with 153 career receiving touchdowns and tied for second all the time, he's fifth on the list for all-time receiving yards and tied for eight interceptions in 1954. a shoe-in for the hall of fame. on the field, as talented receiver as has ever been. >> he seemed like such a jerk for the vikings. i love watching him play for belichick and the patriots. because he seems sed to be a g team player. >> belichick can use chad ochocinco and albert haynesworth. he'll be able to take these guys. >> number one in all time tds? >> jerry rice. >> kept telling you why. >> mr. jerry rice. >> that's not -- >> yeah, testing you. >> who's the best receiver is like asking you to say the best baseball player. >> jerry rice is in a league of

his own and randy moss is on that next tier of all-time receivers. great player. to baseball, great game at fenway. look at this. the moderator of "meet the press". >> david gregory. >> perhaps an assist from mike barnicle there in the seelts. we don't know. carl crawford hits one deep to right field. solo home run, 3-1, boston. indians come back on the sixth. the end of the season, right field, two-run home run, the very next batter, travis hafner, the same thing, back-to-back home runs make it 5-3. >> wait, wait, stop. >> yes, indeed. >> boston in the sixth. >> you -- >> evens it up with a two-run home run. another angle shows -- look at this, he shattered his bat. amazing. >> that's exciting. >> here's the play you want. >> tie game. >> another one to right, did go out. but here's the physical evidence. an imprint of the ball on the fan's leg.

that was a home run because it drilled the fan in the seats. that's all the evidence they needed. going on to win. >> oh, my goodness. look at that. >> and she's smiling. >> that will leave a mark. that literally will. >> yankees on the road in chicago playing the white sox. sabathia had it going last night. next batter, adam dunn, swing and a miss. fresh out. does it again. there to end the inning. yankees won 3-2, sabathia strikes out six over eight innings. the major league winning 6 of 10. yankees the third winner of the red sox. >> curveball is dropping. >> to the table. >> a couple of highlights we're seeing between the mets and the marlins. mets and the marlins. the fifth inning. on second. trying to score the base hit. watch this. gop out by a mile.

but he was. >> oh, my gosh. >> game tied at the tenth. and crushing the grand slam. that's the guy mike barnicle traded off of his fantasy teams. he was duped by his own son. >> let's go to mets. >> the first day of training camp for the jets. they made news by signing wide receiver plaxico burress. shot himself in the leg. you know the story. it wasn't burress drawing the most attention in camp. it was the coach. look at the ink. right leg of head coach rex ryan. >> what's he doing? >> he picked up the tattoo to a recent vacation to hawaii. jets executive tweeted out the photo later in the day. there were so many questions to the front office, rex ryan released a statement to the press explaining the decision by saying, quote, i just felt like it, period. >> fair enough. >> that's all you need to know. >> okay. >> next question. mikk a's must-read opinion page

is coming up next. watching "morning joe" by starbucks.

emmanuel cleaver calls the debt ceiling bill a sugar coated debt sandwich. to which denny's replied, hey, don't drag our new sandwich into this. it's a good sandwich. >> time now for the most read opinion pages. joe, it's in politico. it's very good. >> thank you, mikka. >> it's in defense of washington -- sort of. this week we're once again

reading how this current generation of leaders is the worst we've ever had. republicans have never been so evil and the president of the united states has never been so weak. i suppose i would buy into that story line if the press hasn't said the same thing about my freshman class 15 years ago that they said now about the republicans. it could be considered the worst in modern history if you don't count about what was written about nixon, ford, carter, reagan, bush and. >> got looks back there. >> been a rough month too. we hear this all the time. how many times do we hear impeachment the end of western civilization. we will recover. the economy has shown resiliency

in the last two or three years. what comes next? how do you deal with the economy? are you willing to make tough choices which will be forced upon you with entitlement cuts and other things if you don't allow the super committee to do positive things. i agree, we will recover. >> i'm not going to be pollyanna. we are america. we will recover. seriously what was written in '89, '90, '91, '92. the economy wasn't going to recover. japan was going to take us unde unde under. coined the phrase. the apocalyptic way in which we're conducting our politics. if that continues driven by the tea party largely and by others, mainly by then, if that continues, we have a real problem. if this was an episode that we

will move on in a more constructive way, then things will be fine. we'll see what happens. >> 45 tea party members have voted against the bill. seriously, the united states of america and the constitution is so weak that it hangs in the ball lachbs based on what 49 people do in the house of representatives. 45 people can be swallowed up in an instant. >> why do we worry the last three weeks worried about defaulting on the debt. the nation's credit was at stake. it's not a small matter. >> you know what i said? >> i'm not saying all along? they're going to be okay. they're going to do the deal. the deal always gets done. and guess what? washington got the deal done again. excelling? no. is it a deal we want to aspire to? no. but everybody is talking about

everything is the end of the world. after health care reform got passed, i hated the bill. but the republicans went out and said i needed to use the same voice, don't i? freedom was killed tonight. freedom died tonight. come on! come on! relax. >> the way we just conducted the exercise -- this is not the way to make sound public policy. so if that's how we continue to behave and how certain people in congress need to behave, that's a bad thing. not saying there's a strong equivilant lan si here. we need leaders. we need leaders. we debated that. we disagree. >> i think one thing we can look to -- have leadership in the congress. whatever you want to say, the republican leadership in the house step forward and say we want to do a deal. the question is, can you control

the tea parties? i think you can. let's -- almost half of the people in favor. you have to wrap them out and isolate them and move forward. >> get ready. >> hold on a second. i was saying three week ago, i wrote a column about this. the president should have stared them down. he chose three weeks ago not to do that. he made that decision three weeks ago. guess what? any politics on the left or the right can smell weakness. and if lyndon johnson were running a democratic caucus and smelled weakness, he would have eviscerated them. that's politics. and the fact of the matter is, the people in the main stream media can call the tea parties, whatever you want to call them. if they were emboldened, they were not emboldened like a three-day weekend crack bing. they were emboldenened by a sensing of weakness, a president that would not stare them down. there were winners here, right? harry reid was responsible. mitch mcconnell was responsible.

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is it time, willie? >> we talked about vice president joe biden. he paid a visit to the house floor to greet gabriel giffords. he was tipped off. he went to say hello. this is how he recounted their conversation. he said --

biden had two surgeries in 1988 to correct an aneurysm commiserating with congressman giffords about the cracked head club as only joe biden can. >> happy moment. >> great moment. >> we talked a little bit about michelle bachmann. she had to leave the campaign trail in iowa to come back for the vote. she was in washington but it didn't stop her from holding a rally in iowa? how did she do it? she called in and put the phone up to the loud speaker. how did it go? very good, bill, tell me the sults, i can't see it! >> she had the crowd raise their

hands. she couldn't see them but trusted they were raising their hands. >> 15 people. >> that little patch of people. >> intimate gather. >> romania, '64, february, stepping off of the plane with jfk. >> wait a minute. >> now, here they are. >> let's be fair. there were hordes. >> like -- >> who organized that. >> a main stream media conspiracy. you go up that mighty hill, all i can say is you better get -- you better have. >> like -- >> you know what you do? >> you have a lot of food for those people? >> you cancel. >> seriously. >> everyone is raising their hands. puddled in. >> guys. >> joe, you're going to like this. >> you're going to like this. a loaf of bread. >> the fcc representative, on the reviews' top party schools of the year. >> top five. >> top five countdown. >> uc santa barbara. >> that's good for iowa.

>> number three, ole miss, great place. >> yeah. >> oxford, mississippi. i'm sorry, does it get any better than that? >> it does not. >> athens is close. >> athens, ga. >> the number one party school? ohio university. >> athens, ohio? >> but why? >> they've made the top party school list 12 times. >> what did they do there? >> they're having a good old time. >> athens, georgia and athens, ohio one and two. >> two athenses are one and two? >> what's in the -- >> we need to do a remote. >> ohio university. >> i need to go investigate. >> with nicolle wallace. >> nicole joins us next. we'll be right back. with the hotels.com 48-hour sale, the possibilities are endless. interesting... save up to 50% this tuesday and wednesday only.

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you were unable to get your own caucus behind your bill a few days ago. do you intend to remain speaker of the house? >> i do. if you look at the final agreement we came to on the white house. i got 98% of what i wanted. i'm pretty happy. >> tell us how you voted and why? >> i voted no. let me say -- the republicans came to power promising all these procedural changes, openness, amendments, etc. there was not now a single parliament promise left unbroken. i vod yes. i voted earlier for a clean

default. it puts a l of pain on the people. we didn't want to deal with it. i didn't want the tea party to succeed in the degrading the capacity to work together. >> top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." nicolle wallace, good to have you back. and in washington, columnist for t"the washington post" and msnb contributor ezra klein. welcome back as well. >> good morning. >> let's talk like we did the last hour. the scene last night. right over the top, the news broke in, gabby giffords showed up. i was surprised by how well she looked. how good she looked. a

and she was doing much better than you thought at this point. >> what a gift she gave at a moment the chamber that needed it so desperately. it was generous on her part. it says a lot about who she is. >> no doubt about it. ezra, people on the right saying, the bill is -- we're going bankrupt. people in the left saying children are being thrown out in the streets. parents will have to feed them pine cones because of this bill. it's $1 trillion over ten years. seems to me both sides are ringing their hands unnecessarily. am i wrong? >> i'll go in the opposite direction. it's one point where the truth lies more on both sides, actually. it's not a huge cut in ten

years, $900 billion. if you get that $1.5 trillion cut that's bigger, also if you get it done in the right way, it will be fine. the bill -- what i find incredibly frustrating, though, it manages to not do either thing that we needed to do. it doesn't do the deficit reduction. it kicks all of the hard decisions down. at the same time, there's no unemployment insurance in there. no payroll tax cut in there. there's no support for an economy or a recovery that's really weak right now. so we could have done something that did more now and more later. we're doing nothing now and not enough later. it's frustrating. >> just to explain to the viewers at home who may think that ezra is playing the role of eeyore this morning from the new winnie the pooh movie, you can do two things at once. you can make tough decisions that takes care of long-term structural debt while taking care of short term investments that on the whole the economy

can slow it down. >> you can save for retirement while sending your kid to college. no doubt about it. amazing how low our standards are getting. for no reason at all that it never had to happen. we're giving ourself a pat on the back here. washington did its job. this wasn't the job. this was the least washington could have done. >> it was the least washington could have done. >> sadly. >> talk about the player here's. >> that's where we are. >> the president of the united states coming under attack from many people on the left. others tweeting i support my president. what's the long-term impact politically? >> it's how long he supports it economy. he doesn't get payroll or unemployment. if you add the cuts to the deal out of the economy in the election year.

this is a bad economy. we're not in a slow recovery or not seeing the numbers that we need to see. i'm not a big believer the way he looks is going to matter. i'm a big believer in whether or not it helps him. there's not a lot of help in this deal and the long-temple deficit impact even if you believe all of this will work, the supercommittee will work. not for a long time yet. >> it's jobs, right? it's jobs at the end of the day. nicole, talking about how the president looks, how about the republicans? >> i respect them for pushing the adversaries to the wall. i don't respect him for taking yes to an answer. what's the justification for a republican to vote no on this deal in the house of

representatives even though i'm the first to say it doesn't cut anything. but they're running the house of representatives. the best deal they could are gotten. if they vote no, if they have their way, the united states of america defaults? >> snromewhere along the way, ty lost this idea that you advocate your side. you inject your principles to what eventually takes place, what transpyres. that's your job. your job is no longer to campaign on an abstract idea. you're now a legislator. >> you're also not in the minority. anybody who's served knows you have to go back to the authority at any time. >> any notion -- we can't be surprised they didn't manage to do two things. they barely did the one thing

let's talk about the guy who wants to run the country. mitt romney said nothing. in the last second, at the most critical moment for john boehner and harry reid and the president. >> cut their legs off. >> and everybody else who's trying to keep financial panic from happening, what does mitt romney do? at the last second. >> he comes in about seventh in the field too. because i think it was congress mapp paul and michelle bachmann who had a position at the beginning of the debate. you didn't agree with the position, but they had one. >> right, right. >> so there's no -- there's nothing impressive about coming out at the end of the deal and poo pooing it. nothing impressive in the halls of congress and nothing impressive on the campaign trail. >> worse than unimpressive.

the narrative standpoint is the biggest problem was the overhang in 2008 people were perceived as a flip-flopper, having no cop vixs. the white house likes that narrative. all of the opponents like that narrative. by sitting around and waiting for the last moment, seeing that you don't have any "read my lips" and calculating what would be best. he feeds that narrative. you can see everybody piling on for that reason. >> here's the problem in the republican field -- he's got all of the political baggage he can carry. the record on health care and less than impressive campaign, the run in 2008. he doesn't need anymore. he needs to -- >> as a commander in chief. >> on and on. >> he'd be better served to take some hits for unpopular positions than he is for coming in in the last minute. >> he's supposed to be the business guy and you would

imagine that the business guy -- >> would understand the economy. >> i unwith all of us on the table. the tax reform has to be next on the president's list. generating revenue. if you lower the repatriation tax, you can bring in $100 billion, $150 billion. if you lower the corporate tax, you have to hope that big companies in america would begin to hire and release some of that money on their balance sheets. there seems to be some agreement around the repatriation tax in either party. should it be part of the effort? >> tax reform should be. we need to reform the corporate code. i'm a huge doubter in repatriation. you give corporations a temporary tax break to bring home money they're stocking overseas. we did it in 20 05. the problem with doing the continuous tax breaks is it means they bring money home. they expect to get one of the breaks every five, ten years.

you stop taxing the foreign income. that's not the way to do it. >> a good argument be made? i hear you, can a good argument be made in the time of scarcity of tax resource that we know if we get it at 10%, 12%, 15%? a trillion or more, $100 billion, $150 billion right away. those who complain they use the companies to pay money. those are american taxpayers and consumers that will benefit. i hear the point. i think this moment it might be what -- it may be what we need to win republicans for the tax bill. >> we're not out of money here. this is a weird part of the debate. we can borrow money for essentially nothing and raise taxes if we want to raise taxes. it loses the treasury money in a long run. pennywise and pound foolish. the corporations love it. they're spending a ton of money to lobby for it. the democrats are on the side. the former communications director for the white house is

on their side. no policy that can do more for corporations than that one. there's no policy in place for the long run when you're telling corporations as lon as they have the money to go to washington, they will never have to pay their tax rate. so in any given year when we're not giving them a huge tax break, they keep the money in ireland, europe, overseas. and we basically killed corporate tax code by giving the occasional holidays. >> nicole, let's try to find some winners. let's start with the republicans. are there any winners here? >> john boehner did their jobs. this is not -- i don't think that they ever failed to grasp the seriousness of this. i think they understood that america could not default. they respected and honored the principles of the tea party and their caucuses. i think they've been talking about the comprehensive elements

of what will have to happen. he put forth a plan -- every morning -- you read the papers and looked to see what he had said. i me he had a vision going back months for how it was going to work out. at the end of the day, they made their point. >> the tea party members have framed their debate. >> yes, and they won a huge number of run concession after concession out of the other side. they took on not just the democratic party and president obama, they took on their leadership. they won the vast majority of what they wanted. >> who's affected on the democratic side? >> i don't think it broke through with the public. but the democrats are involve in the gang of six, acquitted themselves with honor in this

debate. >> you believe independents look at republicans? democrats look at it marginally better. if you're an independent, how does it come down in readiness? >> last night in florida at 6:30, not playing with their kids in the yard and were inside watching cable news, harry reid, supported a bill he hated. many democrats voted for this voted against it. they weren't. this makes everybody look horrific. there's no political winner. i think the question is who lost quickest. the poll numbers dropped in some

ways a little bit more from the 2010 peak. one big washington winner is mitch mcconnell and joe biden. those are the two guys that were able to cut the deal. the number of people is tremendous. 535 members of congress and mcconnell who's not a senator anymore ended up mattering. >> who won? anybody who wants a third party. >> well -- >> anyone who's pushing for an outside reform movement. >> you know? >> like a radical center. >> jobs -- that's all that matters going forward. >> i like when you have signs like that. >> ezra, trying to make it easy. >> absolutely fresh. >> four letters. >> at the end of the day, it's about jobs. we've got a structural problem in this country with the economy. and it doesn't -- taking care of

the debt, it's an accounting trick. it is. you have to make tough decisions. the tougher thing is how to grow the economy. the it revolution grew it in the 1990s. >> reducing anxiety and this whole debate increased the public's anxiety. >> i agree. do you agree with the third party? does it move the ball down the field at all? >> third parties, a, never work, b, whatever they end up doing, whoever the third party is closest to, it spoils the next election. third parties -- if they could work, that would be great.

they don't and they do more harm than good. >> they're going to make chris christie run. >> ezra klein in washington. thank you. >> thank you, ezra. coming up, we're going to talk to tom coburn and john thune. up next, correspondent chuck todd and columnist for "the washington post," eugene robinson. but first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> hot forecast, 99 in dc, that wasn't close to one of the hottest temperatures in the country. show you the forecast for new england first. a lot of people waking up in the big cities. a nice summerlike day. no problems. maybe a sprinkle or two in northern new england. but what happened yesterday? tulsa, oklahoma was 110. dallas was 107. the middle of the country is baking. this is one of the hottest temperatures we've seen in some areas in 30 year. we're going to see 107 in kansas city? that doesn't happen that often. thunderstorms will roll through the great lakes, detroit, cleveland, and chicago. some showers and the thunderstorms in the southeast. we have tropical storm emily in

the caribbean. this could be near florida this upcoming weekend. details on that as that event approaches. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ p.a. announcer ] announcing america's favorite cereal is now honey nut cheerios! yup, america's favorite. so we're celebrating the honey sweetness, crunchy oats and... hey! don't forget me!! honey nut cheerios. make it your favorite too!

the tea partiers have put us in a straitjacket. i think to some extent, the democrats tied the knot. in order to get through another short term crisis, we have really created a situation in the long term that's going to come back to haunt us. welcome back, the sun coming up over the white house. live from washington. joining us from washington, white house correspondent, political director and host of "the daily rundown," chuck todd. and columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst,

eugene robinson. good morning. >> good morning. hey, guys. let's start with you. before we talk about the winners and the losers in this thing, you know, everybody is talking on the left and the right, the extremes, how this is the worst thing ever. kids aren't going to be able to -- it's $1 trillion over 10 years. it 's the bare minimum. we avoided catastrophe, but we're not going starve. >> we avoided any of the tough ideas, any of the tough political -- and the idea that the supercommittee is going to take up tax reform, is going to take up social security reform, is going to take up anything about entitlement is a joke. it's not going to happen, not less than one year to the election. i hate to be a total cynic on that front.

it won't. wait until you see who's appointed. do you think mitch mcconnell will support them on the gang of six? >> probably not. >> exactly. >> if it did, the entire gang of six were apointed, then you could say, okay. mitch mcconnell and harry reid were serious about doing the big deal. that's guts to do that. those are the six to do that. that's not going to happen. because not this close to the election site. what about the trigger mechanism, the enforcement. that makes it all happy, right? the reason why there was a holdup in the end for the trigger is because everybody expects the trigger to be pulled. it is going to happen. and whether it's -- the medicare provider, cuts, the pentagon hair cuts which will be tough for members of congress.

one of the reasons why the pentagon thing popped up at a sticking point on the trigger. yes, this is about -- some are arguing it's about a national security and defense. it's about pork. it's the last piece of pork that a lot of members of congress can be for without it being unpopular. >> i want to read -- you're going to read your column. but another one in "the washington post" today. this is i like richard cohen, i do. i like the guy. i like his columns a lot of the time. but this is the type of hyperbole we're seeing from all sides. it makes me tired. this deal, this $1 trillion deal. washington goes through $1 trillion in an afternoon. this december they went through $1 trillion. this is $1 trillion over ten years. the debt is going up like another $5 trillion the same time. the tea parties diminish the power and the reach of the

united states. the domestic economy will suffer and the gap between rich and poor and the educated and the poorly schooled will continue to widen international relations were like a dominant power able to force the rule of law. the bad guys will be freer to be as bad as they want. this deal, when you get down to it -- kids aren't going to starve. schools aren't going to crumble anymore than they are because of this deal. i'm tired. i saw one congressman after another saying, yeah, last night, this is terrible, this is, oh, the poor are going to be thrown down the street. we love barney m barney is saying fires won't be put out, kids will starve, republicans won't starve because of this bill? really?

this bill is a nothing bill. >> okay, here's eugene. >> there we go. >> i'm tired. >> how are you. starbucks makes a nice decaf. >> come on, seriously, the hyperbole is insane out there. >> doesn't he have a point? >> the tea party got some of what they wanted. they won politically. >> and we'll move on from there. you're right this is not as i say -- this is not the end of the world. this is not -- the pine cones that the kids will have to eat, they could be tasty. >> tasty, honey-dipped pine cones. the practical impact of this as far as policy goes.

chuck alluded to this before -- whether you look at the underlying bill of the supercommittee, come on, at the end of the day, it's a wash. all he did was avert disaster. >> here's what we did. this is not the end of the year, this is a small deal over ten years. we took this small step on debt reduction and set up a trigger mechanism that will take another step on debt reduction as ezra pointed out a few minutes ago without doing anything to support an economy that is barely climbing back to health and doing anything on the revenue side where something should have been done. no, it's not a good deal at all. we shouldn't speak

apocalyptically. >> welanded the plane. no wings on the plane. but we get off easily. if you want to look at winners, people found out that mitch mcconnell is the most powerful person other than the president. >> senate majority leinority le. they can do this in quiet. they don't have to be out front. they can be obstructionists when they need to be. they're the linchpin, right? they can control it -- you're more effective minority leader and you get to the majority and say what happened to this person. >> no fun being majority leader. >> i joked with mcconnell's staffers have joked with them, you become a majority leader, i'm out of here.

it's not going to be as fun or easy as a job. his wife, i said is your husband going to be the majority leader? god, we hope not. it's a lot more fun. look at poor harry reid, okay? harry reid is a real grown-up. but harry reid hated the deal. he hated the fact that mcconnell was going behind his back talking to the president. he was excluded. and the second -- the outlines of a deal come forward, harry reid comes forward and says, yes, i'll support it. it's tough but it's leadership. isn't it? >> reid got a lot. his bill was used more than boehner's bill if you want to look at the structure. >> eugene? >> yeah, that moment when harry reid came out and clearly having

been ticked off the same way that they came out and said, you know, we're not going to do anything today. this negotiation is going on. that's very classy, classy moment. the senate can, not always, can be grown-ups. >> you talk about winners and losers and the thing you said before that was that nothing really got done. nothing really got done. >> i mean -- >> we dipd -- >> we landed the plane. >> we're not talking this morning about the possibility of americans losing 25% of the value of their 401(k)s. we're not talking this morning about interest rates skyrocketing. >> what was the point of the whole exercise. that could have been done without this. >> the tea party very successfully raised the debt deba debate.

in the end, they did not get a lot of policy. >> they got nothing out of it. they tell everybody that -- >> the negative thing about it, i'll say again, mikka said a little while ago, the policy is a burger. the process is made it crazy is they're not emboldenened. coming forward, a series of these kind of things where a faction of the republican party of the house refused to drive policy in this way is not -- it's not the end. >> a whole lot of voters out there. if you call them crazy rump roast, whatever you're going to call them, they were elected by people who were whether we agree with them or not, didn't want the country to go into further debt. so the more we are in denial, the -- >> the country wasn't going to go to further debt. >> people trying to raise the debt ceiling oochlgt. >> nothing is wrong. >> we see how it works out when

candidates run on voters are stupid. it never works. >> anybody who thinks that the basic -- the basic views of these tea party members are out of touch with main stream america are going to be in for a -- they're going be in for a rude awakening in 2012. that's the reality. a rude awaking. >> look at the guy -- >> look at the guy who lives in brooklyn. >> i'm saying, look, you can't sit there and praise mitch mcconnell and john boehner to criticize those unwilling to compromise. >> who do we have on the show? >> one guy who won't be on the supercommittee. no, i have to remember the gang of six. but good luck with these gang of sicks if they can get on. and john cornyn, i'll ask if he would allow any gang of sixers on this deal. so we'll see. >> thank you. >> get capes. you get capes with the super committee. >> they should get capes. >> yeah.

>> capes. >> yeah. >> and a logo. >> all right. >> you need to work on a logo. >> we'll be right back.

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. >> 41 past the hour. republican senator from oklahoma. and member of the so-called gang of six. you ear excited, right? tom coburn. i've known you for a long time. the women on the set. they get flushed and excited. >> you know he's going to be on the super committee. >> i doubt it. >> oh. >> so nicole was talking about how she'd wake up every morning and see where you were throughout the process. you've taken a real leadership role here. how do you think things turned out? >> well, i think the politicians won and american lost is what i think. i don't know of any program that was eliminated. i don't know of anything that was set in stone that couldn't be reversed with a vote of 60%

of the senate. 98% of this whole thing happens in another year and five months. we didn't cut spending in the likelihood that we didn't decrease the debt limit. in the long run, the country lost. >> i don't understand you. you're saying that we've been talking about. all of the democrats said that children were going to be starved and schools were going to be torn down. richard cohen suggested that the criminal are going to be running free in the streets because of the cuts. >> there's no real cuts in this thing. $ 830 billion increase in this. almost $1 trillion more we're going to spend. we're playing the washington game again where we call a cut a slowdown in spending versus what america thinks of a cut is i'm going to spend less next year than i did this.

so if $830 billion, by the way, with our economic numbers looking the way they are, our pinch is going to get tougher, not -- not easier. so i -- i think we ought to be just dead honest with the american people saying there's a lot of things that we're not going to be able to do. let's get about solving them. and i don't see us -- there's not one tax expenditure eliminated in this. >> the debt deal is not a debt deal. >> the loopholes that don't help anybody except a select few. >> this is a debt deal we found to be curious. tom coburn has put out a bill to save $9 trillion. republicans had a chance to get a $4 trillion deal and they balk because they didn't want to tackle tax reform. >> i wonder if you've been an advocate of tax reform which has lowering the corporate individual rate. do you think that in this

political climate, you could ever successfully argue on behalf of that. or are you stopped with closing loopholes as tax increases and all of the alarms go off? >> look, i think the american people get it. what you have to remember about tax loopholes is we're causing people to misdirect capital which gives less benefit to us as a country as a whole through job creation. when you're directing capital to lessen somebody's tax liability versus increase the return on that capital from its employment, we actually hurt everybody, those who are paying taxes and those who aren't. because we eliminate opportunity. >> you have to hand out courage pill ifs you could get every republican. >> what else is new about that in washington? >> all right. >> go ahead, harold. >> senator harold ford, good morning. >> hey, junior, how are you? >> good, brother. you -- i hope the way they're

getting out to sign the no taxes. i hope the gang of six says, hey, look, we're willing to take some of the courageous steps that you've laid out. the next step for you, how does the gang of six try to influence the special committee. >> i think we first, harold, we have to see who's on there and we have to try to influence and say here's the things we learned, here's the things that we the do. i don't expect a committee to come up with anything, number one, because nothing you'll have people -- there's going to be firm positions on both sides. that's number one. but they may. i don't expect the sequestration work either. we waved pay-go 65 times last year just saying, oh, well, the rules don't apply. and that's what will happen in the senate. so i -- i don't -- i don't think that -- that's why i said 98% of the benefit to the country in

terms of quote, savings, which are not real savings, doan occur until november of 2012. so we're playing the game again. we're -- we're speaking right. the americans say we solved the problem. we got together. we're going down the road. when, in fact, the truth is, we're going to be in worst shape because of this, not better. >> okay. so, let me get this straight. there are no cuts in this right away? >> no real cuts in this. >> that's number one. number two, the super committee you don't think will come to anything in terms of cuts. and if they do, do you think -- or if they don't agree, do you think the trigger mechanism will work or be will that fall apart too, in terms of your knowledge of how washington works? >> i think we'll bypass the trigger mechanism. we say time-out, it doesn't apply. one congress can't bind the next, number one, and 60 votes in the senate. had you had this trigger mechanism in there, and a 67-vote majority to re -- to get

rid of it where the pain didn't come, then you would have had something. we were trying to influence that while we heard this thing was going on. that's what the gang of six agreed to. we're our own worst enemy. we need to guard against the bad habits and a 67 vote and a special limitation on what you can call an emergency. because that's all they're going to do. they're going to have these droughts in the southwest, southeast. the floods in the middle. and they're going to come around to appropriations time. they're going to say time-out, we need $60 million to take care of these. and oh, by the way, we had a rule over here but we're not going to do it. >> senator coburn, willie geist. we had a months' long conversation about the debt and the ticking time bomb waiting. the stakes couldn't have been higher. but you're saying we got essentially nothing out of it. so given that, what will it take to have a real conversation to have real cuts on. if we can't do it in this moment, what are the american people to think. how will we do it? how will we ever in a serious

way tackle our debt and deficit? >> i think we need to be -- maybe i don't belong up here. i think we ought to be really honest about how serious our problems are. because everybody seems to think that we can keep going down the road. and not addressing them. we're in big trouble. there's going to be a worldwide debt wall hit sometime this next year. it's going to impact us. we're starting to act and behave just like greece. we're not making the hard choices when we should be making them. and when we get to it later, it will be more painful than it would have if we made it now. real leadership saying we're not going to be able to do everything that we said we would be able to do. let's come with the country. what's the number one commitments. number two -- let's prioritize them. and we have people to take care of, we can do that. and come over here on the things -- the choices. which one is more important and

how do we do it better and more efficiently. i put out a list of 1200 programs with the gao. i put out $9 trillion with things you could eliminate. you don't have to agree, half you could agree with. if you read that book at all, there's a ton of stupidity in it. we won't have the conversation we need to have about what our problems are. >> senator coburn, thank you very much, i think. >> thank you. we greatly appreciate it. >> good morning. >> good morning, oklahoma. >> greatly appreciate it. thank you, tom. i will say nicole still had the dreamy look in her eyes. he belongs up there. >> 99 -- >> championship game. >> emotional return of gabby giffords to the house floor. keep it here on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] this...is the network --

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welcome back to "morning joe," 48 past the hour. democratic congresswoman from florida, chair of the democratic committee, representative debbie wassermann schultz. an incredible day. we're not talking about the vote, are we? >> no, no we're not. >> that was something else? how is congresswoman giffords doing? >> she's doing great. as the whole nation saw, she made a triumphant return to the house chamber last night. was able to cast a vote and send a strong message to her constituents on what have of her constituents that the nation should not default on heifer th obligations and want to come in and support compromise and balance so we could continue to get our fiscal house in order and focus on getting the economy

turned around. >> it's really clear that her recovery going well. >> it is. >> i'm wondering how, as a friend of hers, how is that planned? how is that sort of coordinated to have her -- was it a surprise to everybody when she walked in the room? what was the back story? >> her husband mark called me sunday night, mika, and told me gabby was following the debate and the negotiations very closely. really decided it was important that if it came down to her vote, that she would be there to be able to cast that vote and prevent the nation from defaulting. but then as the hours went by, and into the morning, she decided that, you know what, it is probably going to be the most important bill we vote on this congress, and she knew that she was ready to make sure that her constituents' voice was represented in that chamber. and i tell you, mika, i was -- while she was casting the vote, her name has not had, you know, a vote cast up there for almost

eight months now, and i watched as her -- as her green light lit up when she cast that yes vote. when that happened, the other members must have been watching too, the whole place cheered. it really just filled up all of our hearts and these were some pretty frozen hearts. so gabby helped us melt them. >> congresswoman, it is willie geist. it was a chill-inducing moment, a great moment. we all needed one. there is a lot of speculation this morning, some reports that after yesterday and how great the congresswoman looked that she will seek re-election next year. do you have any information you can share with us on that? >> we're certainly getting her ready to make sure she can run for re-election at the points that they're ready to decide on that. she continues to focus on her recovery. she's going back to houston to have another -- herring we round of physical, occupational and speech therapy. she's going to continue to work hard in that recovery. as you've seen, she has the heart of a lion, made remarkable

progress. but her supporters in arizona and across the country, her colleagues are making sure that she doesn't have to start from scratch when she makes that decision. >> it is amazing. >> debbie, harold ford. good morning to you. the impression we have gotten from washington, the democratic leaders, is the position will shift to jobs for the party. any insight for us on that this morning? >> i think we have been focused on jobs, particularly president obama has been focused on creating jobs and continuing to get the economy turned around. now we're going to be able to let this commission do its work, come up with the balanced plan that the stage is set for, make sure that we can get the balance between cuts so that all the pain is not piled on the middle class and working families. and continue to focus like a laser beam on jump starting the economy even more, making sure we can get the jobs created. because that's what we really need. the economy needs that shot in the arm. we all got to come together to do it.

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our boy's a genius. we are awesome parents! biddly-boop. [ male announcer ] if you find a lower rate on a room you've booked, we won't just match it. we'll give you $50 towards your next trip. [ gnome ] it's go time. her presence here in the chamber, as well as her service throughout, her entire service

in congress, brings honor to this chamber. we are all privileged to call her colleague. some of us very privileged to call her friend. throughout america there isn't a name that stirs more love, more admiration, more respect, more wishing for our daughters to be like her, than the name of congresswoman gabby giffords. >> good morning. it is 8:00 on the east coast. as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set, john heilemann and harold ford jr. >> what did you think of that? you know, a lot of times, if you read between the lines of some of these stories, it seems like some of the reports may have been overly optimistic. i must say, i was surprised by just how good she looked, and just her responding the way she did to everybody. what a happy, happy moment.

>> you know, it was the kind of thing where you -- sometimes when you're watching coverage of something, it is overkill because we roll it and roll it. i could watch that video again and again and again. it brings -- >> the opposite for me. i was switching around the channels, right? and i saw the -- i saw everybody rise, and i was, like, okay, take the giffords shot. even at home, i'm the director, like take the giffords shot. everybody is like, well, you know, you wonder what the parliamentary procedures -- like the people on air, it took them like 30 minutes to figure out why they were clapping. i'm, like, gabby giffords. without knowing she was there, she was there and then you saw it, man, it was just great. >> chills, chills. and the reports we got from the floor of the house that she was going around to her fellow members and calling them by name, she recognized everybody, she was hugging them.

i think she's exceeded everyone's expectations of where she would be now less than seven months after she was shot in the head in tucson. >> isn't that crazy? >> a little perspective amid the craziness in washington. >> she looks better than most of us do on most days. seriously, look at her. >> pastor ford over here. >> so she got to vote and, harold, the outcome wasn't even close. >> it was not. i think some of the criticism of what passed last night is a little overblown. my friend barney frank, i think, i can understand his politic, but i don't think it is as guided as he wants to be. the argument now should turn to jobs. i hope had ugly argument we had over entitlements and spending will have to deal with it again, but the american people are most concerned, and this show said over and over again, about the economy what we do to stimulate job creation and what we do to relieve some of the money on the

balance sheet of large corporations. >> and that is politically what the president and congress has to do, but, john what did you think about last night? were you surprised the vote was as close as it was -- >> you mean not as close? >> not as close. are you surprised it was not close? >> what we talked about yesterday, there would have to be a lot of free votes and people would be left on the right and left to vote against it. the politics suggested that people on the left and right would want to be able to stay away from this thing. half the tea party members voted for the bill, you know. the bill passed with a big number of democrats. >> half the democrats -- >> i was very surprised. it suggests to me it may be -- that the president left some substance on the table. he could have passed this -- possible you could have gotten a little bit more to speak to harold's point about maybe a payroll cut, payroll tax cut extension, you know, some more on unemployment insurance.

may have been able to slip a little bit more. the margin was enough that you wonder whether there might have been more -- >> lyndon johnson always hated to win by a large margin. that means he didn't -- he left something on the table. that said, willie, the stakes were so high at this case. you wanted to get over the finish line. and last night, even before the vote, we didn't know if this was going to turn out like the first t.a.r.p. vote. >> you said yesterday morning, you better pass this bill. because there was some question if people would come around on this and they did by a wide margin. the question is, what does it mean for the economy if we put the politics behind us? you said maybe it was overstated by progressives how damaging this is in gutting some key programs. >> first of all, let's have a reality check here. first of all, this thing doesn't cut anything. it cuts a trillion dollars over ten years. over ten years. do you know how fast washington went through a trillion dollars? just like that when they extended the bush tax cuts and

unemployment benefits. as far as the debt, the actual debt goes, willie, this does absolutely nothing. so, first of all, let's be honest, anybody that says it does is just lying, all right? secondly, anybody that says that this is the -- the right is saying this is -- come on! all we did here is, yes, maybe we kicked the can down the road, but we made sure that the world markets didn't open like 30% down this morning and 9.2% unemployment didn't grow to 10.5% unemployment. >> you don't think some goodw l good will come out of this super committee? >> it may. even if we get the best, it is $1.4 trillion more, and the debt keeps growing. so, no. >> all joe is saying is you created room for the debt ceiling to be increased wo ed w adding more to the debt. >> harold, i guess, you know what, standing in place, judged

on how badly we have done over the past year, past ten years, standing in place may not be a bad thing. but i'm so sick and tired of the extremists acting like, on both sides, like this is the end of the world. >> this is the first time the debt ceiling has been -- we have been there for ten years. have you ever passed a debt ceiling and found cuts to correspond? >> i like that. >> i hear what you're saying. >> but it is not going to -- >> which is why jobs and the economy have to be the focus now. >> this won't savage the economy. a trillion dollars over a decade's time is nothing. >> it is not just that it is only a trillion dollars or a decade's time, it is that the cuts are very minimal over the next two years. i was peter orzag last night, he said the contractionry effects over the next two years are almost nothing. >> nil. >> a huge opportunity may have been missed here in terms of all the issues we talk about here. and perhaps on the stimulus side

if you're a liberal, you might say we should have done more stimulus, but those are opportunity costs, not actual negative effects on the economy over the next two years. >> one issue that they actually tackled for first time, it sounds like defense. >> right. >> it sounds like -- >> there is a big chunk. >> a big chunk. >> an automatic cut if the super committee cannot -- >> now, listen, i understand why some neocons are very upset because the martians could invade at anytime. we need a better defense budget than any other planet because when they come, we need our radar gun technology ready. >> zap them. >> not just a bigger defense budget. you need the defense budget that is bigger by a magnitude, two, three, four times bigger. >> let me ask you guys around the table this question. did you notice last night both sides were lying about the super committee and what they can and can't do. you know, the white house can't raise taxes.

you know they can't touch entitlements, medicare or medicaid. they're both lying. i'm going, wait a second, you are on the air, lying to america's face, just to pass this vote, as if you don't think that after the vote comes, we can't pull up the video and show you lying. and i would single out one side, but both sides, willie, were lying -- just bold-faced lies. you know this can't do anything that you don't want it to do. how stupid do they think we are? both sides. >> the super committee that is powerless. >> we take a step back on the super committee, because we have had a lot of questions, what the hell is the super committee? where did it come from? who are the people? >> an enforcement mechanism, very exciting word, almost as exciting as infrastructure. but they set it up, it is a bipartisan committee to try and establish what the cuts would be, am i correct, and if they cannot agree, then automatic

across the board cuts go into place. >> they have to -- first the super committee has to agree and the entire congress has to pass whatever the committee agrees on and we'll have the key issue with that is going to be who gets selected to be on the committee. >> is anything left out of the across the board cuts? >> i think they specified broadly, about half of it is domestic and half of it is going to be from the defense department. >> automatic. >> automatic, 50/50. >> and is there a deadline by which they have to make these cuts? >> november 23rd is the recommendations from the congress and from the committee and december 23rd if it is not done, the automatic cuts take place. you have the -- the defense people want to protect defense. presumably republicans, people who want to protection zegs discretionary spending, democrats, they'll avoid the cuts on either side. >> one more thing, brother

orszag last night knows more about this than anybody at the table, the trigger seems to be airtight, which a lot of people wonder, will it hold, is it serious? he says from his inspection, it looks like it is pretty hard trigger, yeah. >> deacon orszag. >> yeah. let me ask this question. i hate to say this, everybody has been calling republicans terrorists and nazis and fascists and stalin and hitler and all the things that, you know, the mainstream media is just, seriously, and actually i guess joe biden, did joe biden call -- >> he denies it. >> four democrats say he did call republicans terrorists. i hope that's not the case. that would be dreadful for the vice president of the united states to be saying that, absolutely dreadful. so with that precursor, let me just ask this question, if you are a republican in the house, how do you vote against this bill? how can you vote -- listen, i just said it doesn't cut that

much. but you are running the country. i think every one of those republicans voted against the bill and let's start with michele bachmann, need to go out on the campaign trail and explain to us the economics of allowing the united states of america to default on its debt obligations, which were racked up in large part over the past decade under republican leadership. i mean, i got to say, harry reid coming up very quickly, supporting a bill he did not like, as many house democrats voting for this as voted against it, i mean, if i'm sitting there taking note as a small government conservative that the democrats are acting like grown-ups, i got to say, there have got to be some independent voters through the that notice the same thing. we had charles crowdham, the conservative's conservative, saying you got to pass this. we got the wall street journal editorial page saying repeatedly, repeatedly, we don't like it. we're small government people. they are. they are so conservative. nobody is more conservative than

small government issues and "the wall street journal" editorial page and i would like the republicans that voted against raising the debt ceiling to explainthemselves because i am at a loss. >> they are all flat earthers. they believe that the debt ceiling is meaningless and all this talk about apocalypse and catastrophe and the damage, that's just not true. >> wait a minute. >> that's what they say. >> wait a sec. hold on a sec. >> this deadline means nothing. >> are you saying, are you saying that they're taking the same exact position as paul krugman? who is also a flat earther this morning, saying, just let the default go? >> i'm saying anybody who believes the default would not have been a terrible thing for the country is out of his mind. >> were you surprised at paul krugman yesterday said vote no, let the default go through. >> i'm not surprised. >> you were not surprised. >> i'm only unsurprised because mr. krugman has tended to be heading that general direction

for a while now. >> yeah. so no bill. willie geist, vote against it, we don't know what's going to happen, default, maybe nothing will happen. seriously. michele bachmann should have a -- >> we just need credit cards. >> michele bachmann without offering much explanation has been on the campaign trail saying let it go, and when asked what would happen to let it go, she said we'll be fine. >> speaking of irresponsible, harold frorord we have to talk about mitt romney. mitt romney said he would vote against, he would vote against the debt ceiling. >> he said he would vote against? i thought he said he was in favor -- >> no. he came out against the deal. >> came out against the deal. >> just in time. >> against the deal, just in time. he's saying, if he were on the house floor last night, he would have voted to allow the united states of america to go into its first default in history. >> well, you know, it backs up

the democrats -- a lot of democrats i watched on the air last night saying that, you know, the bottom line is a lot of these republicans were holding this bill hostage, i'm sorry to use the word similar to the ones that those say that -- >> don't you think there is a better twi s eter it than that. >> i can handle biblical references. >> if they have. and what do you do? how do you negotiate with people who would do that? there is your answer right there. you can in the criticize the president when he's dealing with president who would do that. >> yes, you can criticize the president for lack of leadership. >> mitt romney hurt himself badly. >> mitt romney, he showed lack of leadership. >> not only -- he's perceived as the adult in the room when you look at some of the republicans running. and to step back and step na the camp a bachmann and be associated with her thinking around an issue, as important as it is, cannot aid him in wanting

to continue to be the big thinker and the big adult in the room. >> for him to recover, he's now got to turn his attention to the economy and move forward and bring democrats and moderate republicans around an issue. >> i believe romney is not in the camp of saying the debt ceiling didn't matter if the debt ceiling was raised. he just did not like this deal. >> up next, we'll bring in republican senator john thune of south dakota. plus, the bin laden raid, the new article in "the new yorker" offers an exclusive account of what happened that night in pakistan. the behind the scenes detail of the covert mission ahead. first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> this is one of the hottest days of the year in the middle of the country. i've been saying that all summer long. this is really hot. we're talking temperatures in the deserts today. let's show you what we're starting out with. at this hour, we're at 83 in dallas. we're in 80s in minneapolis. east of the rockies, very, very warm. check out what we're going to do this afternoon. 111 around tulsa. 107 in kansas city.

this is some of the hottest temperatures kansas and missouri has seen in 30 years. in dallas, 108. in the northeast, that's hot. we can't complain. we look at the middle of the country, 92 in new york today. 96 in washington, d.c. we have a little tropical storm to talk about. it is still unorganized and kind of weak, but the only issue is that if it survives heading over haiti as we go through thursday, it will then head up to florida or the southeast coastline. let's hope the storm falls apart. if it makes it through the islands it would strengthen tass he as it heads to us saturday and sunday. i love that my daughter's part fish.

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i think the politicians want an american loss. that's what i think. i don't know of any program that was eliminated. i don't know of any duplication that was eliminated. i don't know of anything set in stone that it can't be reversed with a vote of 60 people in the senate. 98% of this whole thing, nothing happens on for another year and five months. we didn't cut spending to increase the likelihood we could protect our debt limit. you know, i think the politicians have a great theater, but in the long run, the country lost. >> yeah. theater. that was senator tom coburn earlier on "morning joe."

>> watch what i can do. >> let me see. let me see. that's a plastic fork. >> broke it in half. who does that remind you of? >> well, i guess it is a stress minder, but joining us now from capitol hill, republican senator some south dakota and member of the budget and finance committees and a chair breaker. >> he broke a chair. >> more impressive than that plastic fork. >> just a little bit. >> a buffalo that he strangled with his bare hands. >> then he broke his chair like an the incredible hulk. >> sometimes this debt makes me so angry and he just squeezes and the chair breaks in his bare hands. >> how do you do that? very impressive. >> oh, my lord. >> what you guys don't realize, mika, is that they designed

furniture weak around here to make senators feel more powerful. so -- >> that works. that works. well, john thune, how are you feeling this morning? we had tom coburn on, mr. sunshine as we like to call him around the morning joe set saying that absolutely nothing good came out of this deal. how are you feeling and will this pass the senate today? >> it will, joe. i notice that coburn was more upbeat and sunny than he normally is this morning. but it will pass the senate and i have -- i have a lot of heartburn over elements in this too. but i think it comes back to the question you posed earlier, if not this, what? and i think it is important not to oversell this because this is a start, this is certainly not a solution to the challenges that we face, but as you know, from having been here, so much of what happens in washington is directional. and when you are here and i was here and harold ford was here, years ago, the last time i remember when we were actually

trying to turn the ship around and actually roll back the size of government. so this stuff is all -- it is directional. and it is a baby step, but i think that's the way you have to look at it. >> that's the great way to look at it, directional. >> yeah, baby steps. senator, why is it just the baby step? why couldn't we have done better here? and i personally think it is the tea party. and i think -- >> what do you mean? they're trying to move us further in this direction. >> it is a baby step and we all know that. if you listen to senator tom coburn, it is a nothing step. the baby fell down on its butt, okay? tell me why it is just a baby step. >> i think that it has a lot to do with.forces that are at work here. remember, this is a president who in his budget this year submitted a budget that increased spending by 55%, that literally doubled the debt, the gross debt to $27 trillion at the end of the decade and had $1.6 trillion in tax increases in there. i think this is moving the ball

in the right direction. it doesn't include taxes. it does have spending cuts. it has a vote on a balanced budget amendment. there are lots of things in here that i think commend it. now, if you're somebody who wants to see a bigger, more robust solution, then, yes, you'll be disappointed. if you're somebody like me, who doesn't like the whole joint committee process, and doesn't like the triggers, you're probably going to be disappointed. but i think, again, you have to look at these things based upon the circumstances that we have. i think our leaders, speaker boehner, senator mcconnell, against a stacked deck, got the best possible deal they could get. >> what was the stacked deck? what was the problem? >> again, i think you got a liberal president and a left of center senate, and those are two forces right now that are working against cutting spending, working against reducing the size of government, and to the extent that you can get anything done in that atmosphere, i think that's a step forward. >> willie, you have the senate that hasn't put out a budget. how many days has it been, senator, since the senate democrats who run the place have

put out a budgeet? >> 825. >> so 825 days, willie, without the senate putting out a budget. the republicans put out a budget that democrats then use that to run against candidates to beat them over the head. i think it is fair to say that as far as reducing spending this week, not this decade, because republicans have been terrible, but certainly if we're taking baby steps, it is not because republicans didn't want to go further on cuts. >> they wanted to go further and the democrats didn't want to put anything out that they then could be attacked on. senator, it is willie geist. i want to ask you the same question i asked tom coburn a few minutes ago, which is that we had this moment of national crisis, if you will, this august 2nd deadline looming, the stakes were as high as they could possibly be, and yet we still didn't get something huge. we never got to that grand bargain that has been so talked about over the last several months. do you see a circumstance within the united states congress, within the government, where we could actually have a conversation about entitlements on one side and raising revenue on the other? are we capable of that

conversation within our political system? >> it would appear, based upon the discussions in the last few weeks, at least right now that would be tough, willie. but i think the big picture here, everybody says what is the big picture? the big picture is this is going to get litigated over the next 15 months before the '12 election. i think this will be the focus of the debate in this country, the political debate and discourse, debt, spending, jobs, the economy. and the grand bargain, i think, was in some ways you can argue that the joint committee is a down payment on a grand bargain assuming it can come to any conclusions. but we have to do entitlement reform. we have to do tax reform. those -- if we don't fix those problems, all we're doing is just nipping around the edges of this, and we can't afford to do that. the problem is too big. >> john heilemann. >> senator, you briefly considered for a while running for president this year. i have a question to ask you about your party colleagues who decided to run. it seems strange to me, and to

some others, that the republican presidential candidates were nonplayers in this debate. they were absent largely. they didn't have much influence on the debate. in many cases they didn't say anything. can you explain why that is and whether it was helpful for them to be such nonplayers or whether it was harmful for the process? >> i think if you're a presidential candidate, john, and of course you covered them, and written books about them, you don't want to get immersed into the weeds of what is going on in washington. i think washington is viewed as the problem. now, clearly you have to have a solution and a vision for the future of this country. but i think what the presidential candidates are focused on and really should be is jobs and the economy. now, at some point you're going to have to lay out what you would do about spending and debt. but my guess is that right now they're trying to stay singularly focused on the issue that they think is the most important to the people of this country and i think they're right. and that is jobs and the economy.

>> senator, if i could follow up on that, based on what you did see and hear from the campaign trail, who comported themselves in a way that -- >> mitt romney. >> did any of them impress you or leave any smoke signals that suggested that in a year and a half they would be best suited to take on the problem of the debt and the economy? >> well, i think that in judging and i haven't seen what all the candidates have said about this so far, but i think what the american people and probably what republican voters are going to be looking for is, one, somebody who is decisive, somebody which i think is in direct contrast to this president, somebody that will provide leadership and somebody that will lay out a vision about how to get the economy back on track. their reaction to this particular episode of what is happening here in washington is sort of a, you know, that's a side note, a footnote to all of this. but in the end, i think that's what the republican nominee is

going to have to do to attract republican voters to their cause here in the country and ultimately to win the general election. >> supporting anybody yet? >> i'm not on anybody's bandwagon just yet, joe. >> did mitt romney -- >> i'm waiting for you to announce. >> yes, yes. very good. okay. well, you just sit there and break chairs for a while. so, john, would it make you -- i'm not making trouble here -- >> yeah, you are. >> no, i'm really not making trouble here. you know me, i was the hot head in congress. i was the guy always pushing for more cuts. but you get to a point where you got to stop the economy from going over the cliff when we have 9.2% unemployment. i'm just really disappointed that mitt romney decided to stay out of this debate, that you guys have to stay in the middle of, and then jump in at the last second to say you would vote against it. was that helpful, john, do you think? >> i don't think at this point it is probably particularly

helpful when you're trying to solve a problem like this, to have a lot of the outside voices, you know, taking a position that might be counter to what we're trying to get done here. look, candidates have their own opinion, they have their own campaigns, they have to decide what they think is the most effective message for them to deliver to the american people. and in this case, to the republican electorate. i'm not going to fault him or anybody else for things they said about this. but when you're in here in the trenches trying to govern under a very difficult set of circumstances, you want to get the best outcome you can. and you mentioned it early on, you said it, i think, all morning on the show, joe, that is if you're not going to be for this, what is the alternative to default? and i think that is the question that most people across the country want their politicians and elected leaders to answer. >> so there you go. you got john thune, a political superstar, but also a little known fact, south dakota strong man champion, 1978. >> he has a belt. >> to 1990. big belt. >> in the gym this morning.

>> he seemed upbeat too. i think he's anxious to get this vote behind us like a lot of us are. >> there are rumors he gets grumpy in the gym and wants the volume turned up and the volume turned down. >> i won't comment on that. what happens in the gym stays in the gym. >> thank you for being with us. appreciate it. good luck. >> thank you, joe. thank you, mika. >> what's going on? first thune, then mathes. >> then mathes. >> tyler mathisen and then new insight on the bin laden raid. you read this, right? i read the article. it is crazy good. >> it is riveting. >> it is riveting. we'll talk about that when we return. [ male announcer ] succeeding in today's market

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let's look now at some of the morning papers. >> strong words on the front page of the "the star ledger," what obama's missing. tom moran said, you get the

feeling if they kidnapped the president's dog, he would pay them to return it and say thank you. that's awfully tough. >> now, you stop it. >> that's tough. >> that's really -- not talking to you. financial times -- >> it sounds like you were talking to me. >> no, i take it out on you. rhode island's smallest city, central falls. >> i love central falls. isn't that the city with the bright future? >> that's the city's motto. a city with a bright future. >> they're looking up. things are looking up yesterday declared bankruptcy as it struggles to meet obligations. >> what are you going to do? central falls fell. >> i hope that's not the only one. >> in times of trouble, you know what i do? >> i hold on tight and call tyler. >> hold on tight. and i call tyler mathisen. you know, the hard fought deal on the debt may not be enough to prevent america from a credit downgrade, but treasury secretary tim geithner says another issue is at stake. >> the economy is absolutely slower than we thought, really than anybody thought and that's

happening around the world. the united states' confidence was damaged by this spectacle they have seen in washington of a significant number of elected officials in this country threatening default, really damaging the confidence. >> yeah, boy. more cheerful stuff. hold on tight. we're going to get a check on business with cnbc's managing editor, tyler mathisen. he's live on capitol hill and already i feel like things are a little better. the news so bad. what's going on, tyler? >> you know, joe and mika, the truth is what this debt deal does is now let us turn back and concentrate on the really hard part, and that is getting growth going again in america. and that is the real nub of the issue here. we're really not going to solve our debt problems, our deficit problems unless we have an economy that can grow faster than 1.2, 1.3%. this happens in the second quarter of the year. basically the first half of the year was kind of a zero economically. that's really the key here.

the secretary is correct that i think confidence has been damaged by -- certainly international confidence has been damaged by the spectacle of what took place here. but the real underlying issues now, at least we have removed the negative in the economy. that was the specter of default. now we have to really concentrate on getting some of those positives going and that means growth, creating an environment underwhich businesses feel confident enough to invest, and ultimately to hire. >> so, tyler, it does come down, we have been hearing this for some time, billions of dollars on the sidelines. it comes down to business confidence. it washington the problem? or a solution here? >> i think it has been a problem. i think that the idea of how the health care plan is going to affect major companies is one issue. this debt issue -- crisis was another. what was the level of tax going to be. these are all things that cause businesses to hold back. that is absolutely true.

but also businesses have held back, i believe, strongly, because the underlying demand, big businesses have gotten a lot more efficient in producing things. productivity is up. that's a good thing in the long run, but in the short run, it means that hiring stays down. when, for example, was the last time you went to a bank teller. >> productivity is up. profits for a lot of corporations are up. the parallels from the '91, '92 recession are numerous. i remember there was so many cutbacks in the early 1990s. when the economy took off, these businesses were ready to go. it is good news in the long run, but right now it hurts. to the credit ratings. our friends at s&p and moodys talking about a possible downgrade if we debt a debt deal. what's going on? >> there is still that possibility. it still hangs out there. i believe we spoke yesterday, s&p has been the most outspoken,

basically back on july 14th, saying that they were ready now, they put the credit of the united states on watch for possible downgrade. and they put some markers in the sand. one of which was a $4 billion deficit reduction program. well, we didn't get that. so now the question is, will they actually follow through and do it? there is some question about that. i am sure that they're under pressure from the treasury department and other sources in the federal government not to do it for the damaging effects it might have. >> and, tyler, how ironic, they're under pressure by some of the same people who criticized them for being asleep at the switch for the 2008 financial crisis. >> that's true. it is exactly the same people who castigate them for having led us to the problems that we were in in 2008. now, the question is, even if there is a one notch downgrade, how bad would it be? i believe in the long run it is going to cost us because it will mean the cost of borrowing will go up. in the short run, i don't

think -- i think the market has already priced in that possibility. >> tyler mathisen, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thank you, tyler. enjoy washington, if you can. >> up next, dramatic new details on what happened during the raid that killed bin laden. we'll be right back. >> i hear they got him. i know you're worried about making your savings last and having enough income when you retire. that's why i'm here -- to help come up with a plan and get you on the right path. i have more than a thousand fidelity experts working with me so that i can work one-on-one with you. it's your green line. but i'll be there every step of the way. call or come in and talk with us today.

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everybody is talking about this "new yorker" piece with bin laden. >> i got a hot dag this morning for breakfast, my usual routine, the guy at the stand asked me if i read "the new yorker". >> we'll turn to that. a detailed new look into the night that osama bin laden was killed. according to an article in "the new yorker" and confirmed by nbc news, we know the raid on bin

laden's compound was never a kill or capture mission. official lly termed neptune spe, the shoot to kill mission lasted just 38 adrenaline-fueled minutes. nbc's peter alexander has more from washington. he was there. >> reporter: they target the world's top terrorist, osama bin laden. on may 1st, a pair of blackhawk helicopters including the one that crashed unloaded 23 s.e.a.l.s, a translator and a dog named cairo at the secret hideout. that translator turned away curious pakistanis. >> told them there is a security operation going on behind the walls, go back to your homes and turn your lights off. that was it. people did that. they had no reason to think they were talking to an american. >> reporter: according to military sources, the s.e.a.l c killed the courier near the gas taps and then entered the al qaeda leader's home.

>> they began making their way from first floor to the second floor. there were metal gates, almost cages blocking the entrance going up the stairs. i think they thought at this point, if there are metal gates blocking the entrance i was of each stairs, we're on to something. >> they knew the bigger target was upstairs. >> first s.e.a.l. turned to the right. at the end of the short hallway, you see the tall rangy individual with the long beard poking his head out the door. that's bin laden. >> reporter: his sources say bin laden was standing behind two women, including his youngest wife, amal who was hysterical. the s.e.a.l.s feared the women were wearing suicide vests. >> first s.e.a.l. through the door, stepped forward, wrapped in a bear hug, turned them and sort of pushed them off to the side. >> he was willing to sacrifice his life if they detonated those vests. >> exactly. as he moved one out of the side, the second s.e.a.l. lifted his m-4 rifle and first shot bin laden once in the chest, bin laden falling back, shot him once in the head and that was it. >> reporter: nine years, seven months and 20 days after

september 11th, the world's most wanted terrorist, code named geronimo, was dead. had the s.e.a.l.s ever considered detaining, not shooting bin laden? >> the s.e.a.l.s contend there was never that this was not a capture or kill mission. you were going in on a kill mission. >> that was peter a er alexande nicholas smittle is the author of that piece. likely to be turned into a book. >> i can't imagine every editor in town called him and said, if you're not doing a book, you'll be doing a book by next week. >> tell us about the article. >> it is riveting. there is nothing better than a piece of richly detailed nonfiction. he talked to everybody. it feels as though, you read this and you feel like you read the definitive account of what happened. it is incredibly well written, deeply reported, you feel like you were there. >> all right.

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trillions in spending cuts, no revenue increases.

put on your hats, play your pipes and dance the minuet. tea party like it's 1799. >> i can't vote for this. >> we haven't gotten what we need. >> this is totally inadequate. >> not something i can support. >> congresswoman michele bachmann is voting against it. >> i'll take that as a yes vote from you or a leaning yes for you? >> no, i'll vote against it. >> take the win. what are you so angry about? yes, government still exists. we still have traffic lights. we're sorry. not everybody defines freedom as the ability to not pay taxes. government isn't perfect, but some people wish it was better, not gone. this whole process has been like it is a negotiation where you got some hostages and after getting everything you wanted, you're still going, oh, and one last demand, i still get to kill the hostages, right? >> nearly $1 trillion in immediate cuts, a debt limit increase of at least $2.1 trillion, and a bipartisan committee created to agree on

another $1.5 trillion in future spending. >> no, that can't be right. yeah, no, that's -- they must have forgotten to add, and with the new balanced approach to deficit reduction forged by rational adults, there are some revenue increases closing the budget gap whilst preserving some vital government functions. can we roll the clip of that, please? can we -- do we have the clip? say it again? really? the skunk with the head in the peanut butter jar. all right, well, no -- that's not really the one i wanted but i'll give it a look. i'll see that. ♪ adorable. some big sports news, former giants star plaxico burress is returning to new york to play with the jets.

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come on in. >> what, what? >> welcome back. this is the part of the show where we talk about what we learned today. william geist, what did you learn? >> senator tom coburn was not prepared to bring sunshine and

daffodils to the debt conversation. >>daffodils, a whole lot of rain clouds. what did you learn? >> joe scarborough is not a fan of mitt romney's campaign in the last couple of weeks. >> the last couple of days. >> you were not an admirer of his. >> if you don't have something to say, don't say anything. what did you learn? >> i learned that senator biden is still the most powerful democratic senator. >> yeah. >> what did you learn, mika? >> you need to heed your own advice. >> wow. >> she stormed off. >> she did storm off. >> stormed off. so what are you doing this week? >> what are you getting into? >> you want to co-host the show? we could