up was "mcgivor" he was always adapting to wags situations. >> just nude duct tape. the book "delivering happiness." that does it for today. i'm dylan ratigan and "hardball" is up right now. deal done. market down. let's play "hardball." 5:00 good evening, i'm chris matthews out in los angeles. leading off tonight, if tea party republicans get what they want by threatening to blow up the economy what's to stop them from locking up government again jp they took the american economy to the brink of disaster and it worked for them. everyone fell in line. republicans, president obama all moved by the threat of economic chaos at the hands of tea party

ideologues. the president today signed the deal into law averting disaster after the senate passed it 74-26. for the tea party, if the end justifies the means, what will toe do for an encore? do it again, of course. can president obama stand up to them next time? then democrats gave away a lot in this deal. how are they going to sell this thing to their voters when they get home this august? we're going to talk to two members of the house, u.s. congressman steve israel who backed the deal, and congressman barney frank who voted nay. plus politics aside. what this deal did to the economy. wow. the dow fell 265 points today. it was down for the eighth day in a row. a first rough reaction. not a good one at what congress did. president obama says the deal will make things stronger, but if you want to know what happens when you cut government spending during tough times, take a look way back to 1937 during the new deal. we know how that story ends. and the mittness protection

program. mitt romney, the republican front ronnor, the guy who says he can run a business and fix the economy, but he's been awfully quiet on the debt issue. call him a debt dodger. finally, let me finish with mugger and the victim who got away this time. let's begin with what the tea party will do next time around. nbc political analyst david corn. and ron reagan is a political commentator. i want the gut reaction of both of you guy. how does your gut feel after you saw the senate vote down with a three quarters vote today after this whole thing is over with my buddy who i've come to respect so much, david corn, your gut? what does it say about this deal? >> my gut wasn't happy. not because of all the particulars, but because i feel like president obama got pushed down to republican territory and was fighting a deficit fight on a republican -- on republican terms regarding the economic narrative of our country.

that the issue is deficits, cut spending and that's what's wrong with the economy. i think ultimately the deal may not be as bad as a lot of democrats progressives will be and there are some things i think the white house won tactically but it reinforcing an overarching narrative not to the benefit of progress irans more importantly to the economy overall. that's why you saw today the president come out and try to pivot very quickly from this story, and i'm waiting to see if he can be successful in that pivot. >> ron reagan. your gut reaction to what we've just watched there and covered every night here? >> well, my guts are twisting agents here, too. i disagree with the president's negotiating strategy. i don't understand why he sits there for a month or so saying bottom line, we have to have a balanced approach. the public comes over to his point of view. even republicans, a majority of republicans thought that revenue and spending cuts should be part

of any deal, and yet at the end of the day, do we see any revenue in this bill? no. none at all. i score this as clear win for the tea party at this point. >> i'll tell you, the israeli government says never give into hostagetaking. we did. president obama this afternoon talking about what needs to be done and what needs to be on the table when it comes to low aring the deficit. here he is talking now. but talking isn't leadership. let's listen. >> since you can't close the deficit with just spending cuts, we'll need a balanced approach. where everything's on the table. yes, that means making some adjustments to protect health care programs like medicare so they're there for future generations. it also means reforming our tax code so that the wealthiest americans and biggest corporations pay their 235ir share. i've said it before. i'll say it again. we can't balance the budget on the backs of the people who bore the biggest brunt of this

recession. everyone's going to have to chip in. that's only fair. that's the principle i'll be fighting for during the next phase of this process. >> oh. you know, i feel like words, words, words. talking again. here's the senator making clear what we saw in last round. that he and speaker boehner were picking members of this super committee, whose chances for okaying tax hikes are pretty low, as mcconnell puts it. listen to the guy laying down the law. mitch mcconnell. >> i can certainly say to the american people the chances of any kind of tax increase passing with this, with the appointees that john boehner and i are going to put in there are pretty low. >> who do you believe there? >> exactly. >> the president or mitch mcconnell? who do you believe will get they're way? your thoughts? >> i do believe republicans will block any discussion of true revenue hikes in this super

duper what do you know congressional committee that's being set up. but on the other hand, the president, if he wants to have this fight again, which you know, we almost had last year, is in a position to say no to the bush tax cuts, which will be expiring next year, which will bring in a hunk, a chunk of revenue if they don't go through. i believe the white house figures that at the end of this debate, as ron just mentioned, they have the public on their side. particularly on this issue. a poll out today shows overwhelming support for including revenues including tax hikes on millionaires and corporate -- >> you're not talking about the politicians at work here. you're talking about the public. republicans in congress led by mcconnell said we are not going to permit a tax increase, period. >> it's up to the president to make that fight, if he believes what he said today, and i do believe he believe what's he said. are we going to deal this way

again or will he fight for this? >> okay, ron. >> why wouldn't he fight that fight in the first place? here's how crazy it gets. why anybody would agree to this. section 402 of this legislation, it precludes, or it guarantees essentially a filibuster or amendments if the committee, the committee of 12, 6 republicans who will never vote for revenue increases if they somehow suggest some revenue is in the package, that is open for filibuster and amendments. all spending cuts, no filibusters and amendments. hoop in their right mind would agree to something that is one set of rules for one set of people and another set of rules for us? >> the guy that agreed to it was mitch mcconnell and he got what he wants because he knows the tools. the problem, seems to me when casey takes two strikes, i'm going to hit the home run on the third strike, he didn't do it in the poem. is he going to do it now?

in casey at the bat, david? >> at some point, the white house keeps saying, this is not our fight. we need to get past this. stead in the government shutdown, the debt ceiling, just like mighty casey. took the two swings and didn't hit the ball the way most democrats want to see it hit. nevertheless, the president laid out a marker today. >> okay. >> shared sacrifice in the past, at some point he's going to have to stare down republicans. >> talk it down. get away from words like metaphors and fighting. a super committee report sometime, well, november 23rd's the deadline. it's going to be a deadlock. the republicans on the committee are all going to vote to the last man and woman, no tax increases. the committee report will come out with all spending cuts. because there can't be by the nature of the bipartisan deal any package which gets bipartisan support with tax increases, because the bipartisan republicans are, again, ron, pick it up here. the president looks, he looks at

that big basted thanksgiving turkey being delivered to his table. it's got all spending cuts on it. at that point, he has to say, go ahead and trigger the cuts in defense, and around the edges of medicare rather than doing this crap, i'm not going it. because that's his only option. at that point he says, turn on the trigger. go with the trigger. cut defense, drive jon kyl crazy and american enterprises will blow up that night. so what. maybe that's what he has to do to teach these guy as lesson. >> maybe that is what he has to do. you're right. that's what's going to happen. it will blow up in his face because he's cutting defense too much and endangering americans, yes. >> what will happen, david? go ahead. >> no, no. also what you're -- the report may not even make it out of the super duper committee. if you know, the democrats hold firm and say there has to be revenues and the republicans say, no. only cuts. you may have a deadlock,

gridlock, which will lead to the same -- you know, effect. so the president may not even get a choice. he may just go to the automatic doomsday machine from dr. strangelove. >> what i'm talking about. it's called trigger. >> and we'll have cuts in 2013. now they -- the white house believed that they protected their priorities from these cuts, and they'll be at defense and on the medicare side, as you mentioned on the providers' side. 3407b not on the beneficiaries' side. and they think they can live with these cuts. >> we're pressed for time. the president says, feeling lucky? feeling lucky, mitch? go ahead, pull the trigger. feeling lucky -- >> and at the same time the president does have this -- this leverage on the bush tax cuts, if he wants to pull that trigger next year. >> well, these guys love to talk end of day. maybe the president's figured out a little preview attraction. a preview of coming attractions ever the coming days. maybe see a doomsday device that

will get triggered december 23rd it will go off. maybe that's the best answer for this whole gang. we'll see. david corn, thank you. better to fight than surrender. looks like we'll see a doomsday machine. david corn, ron reagan, thalgts thanks for looking ahead. what about con existituents? they turned over the wallet to the mugger. two house members coming up. congressman steve israel, running the campaign committee for the democrats and barney frank who voted against it. we'll ask both why they voted the way they did. you're watching "hardball," you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.

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around the bend. some of these people who have seen in america, an america if you're gay or lesbian you're not demonized anymore. in which women are freed, as

they ought to act and see people are free to be religious or not religious. that's a part of it, and for some reason it would seem to me -- i can't fully understand it, chris. the health care bill drove them wild. >> yeah. >> i do not understand it. there were inaccurate arguments at the health care bill. frankly, many thought was too weak. >> here what i don't get. why don't they want the average person to take some responsibility for their health care? nixon believed in employer mandates. what's wrong with an individual mandate? seems to me a conservative idea, not a socialist idea. why do they hate making individuals responsible instead of throwing it on the cost of society? emergency rooms and all that? >> i can only say i share your curiosity. i can tell you this. listening to them talk about it does not elucidate any logic behind the predictions. >> let's go back to the word about ignorance in government. do they accept their

fiduciary -- i wish there were a simple word. you're in financial services. a simple word to explain the responsibility you have as part of the u.s. government to pay its bills? do they accept that? >> no. some of them -- they don't accept it on the moral sense. ship say, well, this whole thing has been illegitimate. i do not understand that. some are simply, literally, the consequences of it. there are people there who have a conspiracy theory of the world. i do not, again, cannot explain it. you know, look, i would love to be able to vote for tax cuts, make them popular, but i never saw a tax cut put out fire or build bridges. you don't want to leave the dotes our children, or highways to collapse or bad air, and it is very puzzling to me. but i tell you this, chris, we have one good thing and i voted against this, because incredibly to me, it said the wars in afghanistan and iraq were not covered by any caps.

open-ended. limits on military spending, but going forward, we'll have an important debate next year. i'm serious about this. the way it work, you talked about the sequestration and the bush tax cuts expire, both of those come into being at the end of negs year. here's the debate we're going to have. i think these people underestimate the support americans have for our coming together to build roads and keep desperately poor people from starvation and providing decent health. doing a lot of things that can only be done if we do them together. the choice america is going to have. we can raise taxes on income above $250,000. what we're saying is, for every $1,000 you make over 250, we want to tax you $30 more. if you make half a million dollars, you'll pay another $7,500. i do not believe that will deter anybody from doing anything that is economically productive. it we're going to save these people $30 on $1,000, we're going to have to cut environment

cleanup and not have as many cops and firefighters on the streets. that will be the debate. either sequestration take effect with all of its damage, including the military. i welcome those cuts. others don't. >> congressman, i wish you could call the white house speech writers with that basic formulation. i mean it. i don't think he spelled out those terms. >> chris, with your help, that's the way we will put it to people. grate me, parochial school education. you produced bona fide in the best way. >> coming up, thank you, congressman. chairs the congress' campaign committee. congressman israel, i often talk to you. get to the bout ttom line. >> these republicans were willing to take this economy to the brink, push it over the cliff, or pull it from the cliff

in a relentless pursuit of the end of medicare. we stopped them from doing that. we'll have this argument again in november and december with this super panel. this super bipartisan panel. >> what about trigger against trigger? there's not going to be a deal. mitch mcconnell made sure no deal and no revenue increase. there can't about deal. if these triggers go into effect late december, around the edges of medicare, did you write the law or members of joe biden write it carefully enough to still have that issue of protecting medicare? >> chris, every time we remind voters in bucks county pennsylvania or the suburbs of chicago or new york, those independent moderate voters, every time we remind them who's willing to protect medicare and who's willing to end it, we win the debate. i have no problem with this debate continuing into the next election year, because the contrasts are stark. we're going to continue to remind the american people with a republican house majority, they started 20 years ago. you know this. 20 years ago, they want medicare to wither on a vine.

tried to do it on a ryan budget. we're going to keep reminding people who's fighting for who in this debate. >> let's look at this new poll. pew research center polled americans this past weekend, asked to describe the debt negotiations in one word. the top ten answers. bigger the word, you can see it there. visually. ridiculous. disgu disgusting. stupid. frustrating. poor. terrible. disappointing, childish, messy, and joke. ridiculous bombs right across the screen there. how do you defend most of the votes for this debt deal when it's called ridiculous? >> i would say first of all, all of the above, because you had a group of people, 87 tea party people who continued to go too far. walked out of negotiations every several days. every time we got close to the goal moved the goal post further and further away. is it a great deal, no, but

republican members of congress are going back to their districts and we are holding them accountable every single day. >> we're watching television. most of what goes on on the hill. not most. what goes on on the floor is transparent. i saw a lot of faces on the republican side. boehner looks like he's relieved. you guys, on the other hand, you're hanging heads, bowed down. i don't see the physical manifestation of a happy democratic party. am i missing something? >> who could be happy when you are in a negotiation with people who are willing to destroy the economy of this country and the pull it over the cliff? now, they may think they were happy on the floor but they're going loam to their districts and we are giving them an accountability august. we are going to ask them to defend the indefensible and they're not going to able to do it. i wouldn't want to be them. i don't know what the weather service is saying about the temperature in august. i promise you, for these republicans it's going to be very, very hot i. hope we can get ahold of you throughout august. you chair the democratic

committee. how this is playing out there. i want to hear from the other side, too. thank you. heard all sorts of analogies. metaphors out the kazoo, eating pea, jell-o, riding on trains, the worst of all sophie's choice. creative pi. let's check out the metaphor magazine. you're watching "hardball." only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] this is the network. a network of possibilities. excuse me? my grandfather was born in this village. [ automated voice speaks foreign language ] [ male announcer ] in here, everyone speaks the same language.

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back to "hardball" now. the "sideshow." first up over the course of the debate over the seceiling of th debate, metaphors related to the tur mile we've seen in this debate. let's look back at some of the more creative moments of the showdown. >> might as well do it now. pull off the band-aid. eat our peas. >> sometimes it's good, it's back away from the tree and take

a look at the forest. >> i came back against, away from the tree, to take a look at forest. >> dealing with the white house is like dealing with a bowl of jl oh. >> several trains have left the station. it's a decision which train we'll be riding when we get to the next station. >> it's a sophie's choice, right? who do you save? who do you pay? >> our objection is to any proposal that puts us through this three-ring circus again. >> wow. hard to keep up. let's try and agree on the metaphor. if it is a band-aid, a case of pulling one off or putting one on? michele bachmann had to opt off an appearance in iowa to rush to washington and vote nay on the debt ceiling agreement. rather than december appointment a group of supporters who gathered outside a pizza shop to hear her speak she calmed into a event through a p.a. system, she did conduct an interesting kind of poll herself. let's listen.

>> let me ask you this question. raise your hands -- do you want me to vote no on raising the debt ceiling. raise your hand. very good. now don't tell me the result-- e the rats. i can't see it. >> sarah palin says she can see russia from alaska. michele bachmann saying she can see all the way to iowa from washington, d.c. despite her attempt, the vote did pass. time for congress and the senate to head home for summer recess. harry reid is ready to head back to nevada. what does he miss the most by staying in washington? let's listen. >> i've been here for a long time. i have a home in nevada. and i haven't seen in months. my pomegranate trees are, i'm told, blossoming and i have some fig trees and roses and stuff that i just haven't seen.

>> wow. nevada. sounds exciting with all the pomegranates and figs and rose bushes blossoming. up next, politics aside, what will this deal do to the economy? the president says it makes it stronger. history says otherwise. that's ahead. you've waging he i watching "ha on msnbc. so we're celebrating the honey sweetness, crunchy oats and... hey! don't forget me!! honey nut cheerios. make it your favorite too!

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i can see what their experts are thinking and even call them to bounce an idea off of one of their investment professionals. a good strategy relies on good insight. if you wanted to learn more about a company, i think you'd actually have to be there. i'm brad goode with your cnbc market wrap. not a prit day for the bulls on wall street. dow jones industrial plunging 265 points. its eighth straight losing session. the s&p in negative territory for the year and nasdaq tumbling 75 points. more signs ever weakness in the u.s. economy and investors cashing out of stocks. the dollar fell against the soaring swiss franc and gold

prices soared to another record high boofrlted by word the bank in korea made its first gold purchase in more than a decade. american consumers cut spending in june for the first time in nearly two years and incomes rose by the smallest amount since september. weaker than expected earnings didn't help as well. falling 6% missing forecasts and retailer coach tumbled after reporting shrinking margins were cutting into profits. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide, now back to "hardball." back to "hardball." you just heard, i guess, in the news today, the dow took a beating today. perhaps a seen that markets don't like the debt deal. perhaps. are you kidding? any chance the deal focuses on debt and not job creation, will help the economy? for the short run? joining us to talk about this,

simon hobbs, great as this and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson who understands the politic. setting you both up, gentlemen. all i can ask, a simp question. dow jones industrial down 265 points today. any winners in this whole kerfuffle. simon, gold -- gold went up, telling me nobody trusts anything except bullion. >> it's not about just today. we have fallen for eight straight sessions. we have lost on the dow jones industrial average 858 points in eight sessions 6.7%, because we believed the world is slowing down and that america, possibly, possibly, could tick back into recession. that is the backdrop. meantime perhaps ironically people are stampeding selling interest rates down. if you ask me specifically about the debt ceiling and what we accomplished in washington i would say the world markets most definitely dodged a bullet but a

bullet playing a game of russian roulette wholly of washington, d.c.'s making. >> give me your assessment gene? >> a negative sum game. not a zero sum game and the question, who's going to lose worse. so dems lost worse than ours, but we all lose given the weakness of the economy. i think it's it's underlying weakness of the economy and the threat of a double dip recession that we're seeing reflected in the performance of the markets. >> the only two guys that look good, two people, i should say that who good, biden and mcconnell. they were at least driving the ambulance the last day. showed up with the ambulance and i'm not a big fan of mcconnell. together they managed to avoid that disaster. let me put together what i believe you believed, simon. the idea we're going to cut spending is absurd. we're going to increase spending dramatically is not going to

happen. basically, let me cut to the chase. if were you the chinese government, a command society running this country right now. forget elections, forget politics, interest groups, and just wouldn't it be smart to shift a lot of the money going to entitlements to maintenance people, a little tough love. shift it into job production for the good of everybody. is that the right god-like thing to do or not? >> ideal thing to do but i don't think in your god-like world that's ultimately what's going to happen. so much of the economy is destroyed. you cannot escape the fact looking for long-term structure control say by the end of the decade, whether you like it or not, chris, you have to cut entitlements and you have to have revenue increases and tax increases. the question, how you balance them out. you can't have one or the other. somehow, you have to bring together the two sides of this psychological argument. the problem, checks and balances set up by the founding fathers in your country, i'm pleased to be here, but the checks and

balances don't seem to bring the two sides of that argument together. it was a politics, fine. had you didn't have to make difficult, hard decisions in the 50s and '60s. to deal with the deficit problem you've got to bring the two sides together. >> green, a progressive. would you go along with that? as an analyst. should the country have a grand going together, much higher revenues, much tough love on the entitlements side. would you go along with a deal like that? >> there's got to be entitlement reform and there's got to be more revenue. those two things have to happen. it depends how you do entitlement reform whether it would make me personally happy, but you could come up with ways to do it that i think progressives would certainly go along with and, in fact, there are progressive members of congress who have come on the show and offered ideas about social security, for example, or medicare. >> it ain't so freakin' complicated. 25% of our gdp, simon and gene,

going to government spending and 15% being paid. it's a 10% differ rebel. it differential. it's got to be closed. close it. >> we there. when b p wobama was locked in t room with boehner. when boehner brought it back to the tee party, the tea party in particular, it fell apart. there were wise men in there trying to dot deals. >> when congress returns from recess, they have to concentrate on one thing. let's listen and see if we believe. let's listen to the president. >> we need to begin extending tax cuts to middle class families so you have more money in your paychecks next year. if you've got more money in your paycheck you're more likely to spend it. that means small businesses and medium size businesses and large businesses will all have more customers. that means that they'll be in a better position to hire.

>> what do you make of that, gene? i'm getting what, what is it? whiplash here trying to keep track of this. he wants revenues to go up, now revenues come down. distinguishing the middle class, taxes to the rich. doesn't he need a consistent message? create jobs, at least force the republicans to say no to something? >> this is the attempt by the administration to pivot away from debt ceiling on to the jobs issue, which everybody knows is what people want to hear about. the problem is, what are you going to say about jobs? i mean, they have several measure, they want to talk about. they want to talk about exports and trade and incentives for small businesses. you know, in the end, is any of this enough to have a discernible, measurable effect on the job situation, when you're coming off a recession in which you lost 9 million jobs. that's a lot of jobs, and at this rate it's going to take many, many years to get them back. >> let me ask simon as

macroeconomist. is there a set of tools available? a debt, deficit, doesn't have wiggle room there. money policy, monetary policy for the fed exhausted with q2, whatever it is. is there anything left he can do as president between now and the end of the year to get the economy rolling? >> that begs the question, can a president create jobs? the situation is really, really rough. the economy basically almost stalled in the first half of the year and now the consumer is retrenching. you have to create demand in the economy for the businesses -- >> how? >> to recruit and bring enum ploimtd down. i don't know how do you it. i think it's structural. look at saving rate amongst ordinary people, they are rebuilding their balance sheet. a house market continues to fall. this is big, big stuff. i don't have the answer to that but i know nothing else that's on the table at the moment appears to be working and as

you've said, at least with the spending cuts you only start getting $21 billion in spending cuts next year and twice that in 2013, at least for now they are not ramping up the spending cuts and i suppose in fairness to the republicans they would say, equally, at least now we are not raising taxes. which would also be quite bad in this environment, but i cannot stress to you how dangerous the situation now is in this economy. but if you see this play out on the television night after night. look at the poll what's ordinary americans you spoke about before the break. do you think they're going to go out and buy that extra car, take that extra holiday or ramp up their credit card? of course not. in the middle of this with games we've played on capitol hill, what have people done? taken money out of the money markets so corporations would find it more difficult to borrow. taken it to the sidelines they may not put put it back in and corporate treasurers are holding cash, not spending in the economy. they are not going out and raetiraet

i creating jobs. we are in this revolving fear circle we need to break out of to have vision and leadership from somebody to pull us out. >> i agree. i spent many days thinking, should i call my adviser and take it all in cash. i worry just like everybody eggegg else. where's mitt romney? nowhere. a debt dodger. supposed to be the candidate of business, the job creator. he's been hiding out for weeks. politico is calling it the mitt-ness protection program. hiding. let's bring him out. this is "hardball," oechl on msnbc. the "mystery spot".

not a mammal in this household is willing to lay claim to its origin. but now is not the time for blame. now is the time for action. ♪call 1-800-steemer. gabrielle giffords returned to the capitol eight months after nearly killed in an assassination attempt pap dramatic and emotional moment.

there it is. cle colleagues gave her a lengthy standing o. will she run for re-election next year? congresswoman giffords is focused on her recovery. no decision has been made about 2010. we'll be right back. [ jelani ] neither of my parents went to college. something that was drilled in me early on, you know, college is the place for you. it's my number one goal. ♪ students like me, who take these ap math and science classes and have these opportunities, this is where the american dream lies. when i write that book, you know, i plan to dedicate it to my school. ♪ those hopes and dreams that you have, you know, they're within reach.

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we're back. mitt romney's back in the headlines not because he's making news. romney's being lampooned for being absent from the campaign trail. politico frames it like this -- call it the mittness protection program. through the hot summer of 2011 the front-runner for the republican nomination has been in hiding.

joining us to talk about this, the anger of politico himself, smith jim things, this candidac what is it based upon? is it based upon simply serve knows who i am, i'm a familiar name, the so-called front-runner, it's going to be a republican year, so i don't have to say nothing? >> it's an unusual situation. you talk about a rose garden campaign for a president who has a rose garden. romney is not that widely known, but i think in his view, every day we're not talking about him as the day he wins, and if he can navigate his way by keeping his head down, you know, he feels like he's in a good position for a general election. >> john, he just believes that merely being the nominee is a

50/50 shot and just wants to get to there. he doesn't have to build anything in terms of belief or create activity or stature. he just has to arrive there somehow? >> well, you know that everybody has the same attitude, which they keep their eye on the first challenge, to win the nomination. i would be less semisive, in the sense that i think they realize that mitt romney will have to engage. even if hi didn't to, he is going to be engaged, and the people running against him will attack him and they have started doing that recently. i think their strategy has been to keep their head down for now, focus on fund-raising to build a big monetary lead, and to talk about barack obama. not only because it makes mitt romney look like a national figure and help republicans visualize what it would be like if he's the nominee, and anti-obama animus is what's

driving the electric electoral and good for the general election, they think. outconsider that to be leadership. you request see they have all taken different positions. it's tough to take a position early on. >> what happens when the voters say where were you in the war, daddy? >> i think romney's hope is that i was on this side, and nobody will require whether it was monday, tuesday or wednesday. it's a strategy that's working so far. i think their hope is just to compress it as much as they can i think romney is tarting to

look good because the president has dipped down so far. his disapproved is up at 5 had. i'm from pennsylvania originally, so let's look at that matchup. romney ahead by two points, santorum within two points. aren't we looking at the weakness, john? >> in word, yes. the president has a lot of things going for him. he still remains personally popular with the american people, but the bottom line is the economy is horrible and it's been really bad for the entire 2 1/2 years he's been president. there was going to come a time when the weight of that economy was going to start to drag his numbers down, and i think we're seeing it all across the industrial midwest. you did see it in pennsylvania, also in ohio, michigan, also in wisconsin. he having a hard time. >> you are speaking my language, that oshkosh to scranton line. if the democrats lose that section of the country they

shouldn't be reelectioned. once you lose the heart, i don't see how you can win any other places. i don't think it's even moral to go that way. you have to defend the guys with the parkas that go to the big nfl games when it's cold. i'm talking marley, for the democrats. >> i think in the long term they see the working people as moving away from that old stereotype, being less white, less mid western. >> more high tech? >> there are a lot of working people in colorado and virginia, increasing numbers are hispanic, and i think that's what they see all the any base of the democratic party. >> i think that's despicable to turn your back on the people who have been voting democrat for 30 years. >> they'll take what they can get. >> i don't think they're saying they're turning their back, but i think in order to expand the map as much as possible, they're acknowledging there's another

brand, and as ben points out, a lot of the voters are latinos and in the states in the wet. there's no reason they can't go after both. >> that would be ideal. i'm with you on that, both. thank you both. when we return, let me finish with why the tea party's muggings action what we saw this week, this month and this year, will continue if the president lets them get away with it. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. what if we designed an electric motorcycle? what if we turned trash into surfboards? whatever your what if is, the new sprint biz 360 has custom solutions to make it happen, including mobile payment processing, instant hot spots, and 4g devices like the motorola photon. so let's all keep asking the big what ifs. sprint business specialists can help you find the answers. sprint. america's favorite 4g network. trouble hearing on the phone? visit sprintrelay.com. ♪ yes! ha ha!

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let me finish tonight with this bat experience, what we saw, a guy with a knife, the other trying to avoid being cut. a thug attacking a victim. it was a mugging. now, the good news, it is relief is a better word that the victim did get through it, but the manager got the wallet. is there any doubt that he, the mugger, will try it again? not a whit. this morning the republican leader of the senate declared his intention to name not a single member of a new special joint committee who is open to attacks or even a revenue increase. so again and again, they will come back to do it again. the gang will be back and each time make new