next on msnbc sunday, chopper down in afghanistan. what led to taking the lives of 30 u.s. service members.

a live report straight ahead. plus, the fire and the fury. anger sparks rioting and it may not be over. more to come. a warning that the u.s. credit rating may be lowered again and soon. good morning. i'm alex witt. welcome to msnbc sunday. it's 11:00 a.m. here on the east coast. 8:00 a.m. out west. there is new reaction for the deadliest day of u.s. service members in afghanistan since the war started in 2001. 30 u.s. troops were killed yesterday. americans across this country are reacting. >> it brings it hope and makes you more nervous about what is going to go on. >> another good day to you, tia. any word about the official

cause? what are you hearing? >> reporter: good morning. nato officials are still being tight lipped. what we do know is that there will be a press conference tomorrow where we will get new information. 30 u.s. service members were killed when their helicopter went down by insurgent fire. a group most recently credited for hunting down and killing osama bin laden. preliminary reports that their ch-47 helicopter was shot down during a night raid in eastern afghanistan district of wardak providence, west of the capital kabul. the compound was a taliban compound. the forces were working side by side when their mission took a deadly turn as their helicopter became a target for the taliban. it's still not clear if the

chinook was shot down at the beginning or end of the mission. >> helicopters, no matter how well they are outfitted or armored are particularly at risk at the beginning and end of operations. when they are inserting troops into a target or extracting them from a hot target, it's very easy to hit them. >> reporter: 22 u.s. navy s.e.a.l.s, five crew men and three air force and seven afghan special forces and interpreter. a dog, part of the navy s.e.a.l.s team was also killed. president obama was briefed on the attack and expressed condolences to the families of those killed. their deaths are a reminder of the ex troerd sacrifices made by all those who served in afghanistan. the deadliest day for u.s. troops in afghanistan since the start of the war. nato deaths have in fact decreased by approximately 20%

in the last six months of this year compared to last year. and as u.s. forces prepare to withdraw from afghanistan, it will be the special operation forces that will be relied upon more and more. alex? >> atia, i'd love to hear the reaction there in terms of morale. what type of toll does this take on the soldiers there in afghanistan? >> reporter: well, alex, this is likely going to take a heavy toll on the men that are a part of the navy s.e.a.l.s unit that actually sacrificed 22 lives yesterday and you know what, these men, women in uniform in afghanistan who come from the united states and all various different coalition countries, they know they have a mission when they come to afghanistan. the majority of them believe in that mission. although this will break a lot of hearts, it will bring a lot of tears.

at the same time, they know that they have a job to do. >> we will stay focused and pray for their safety and security. atia, many thanks. well, let's get the reaction at home and here in the u.s. where the community is feeling the mourning very hard. >> reporter: this is navy country down here. areas like hampton, norfolk this is where many call home. one of the s.e.a.l.s killed in the attack lived in virginia beach, not far from here. at a baseball game in norfolk last night, this naval community paused to remember the americans killed in the chopper crash, offering prayers for the loved ones left behind. >> we lost some great americans in the last day or so. it's a real tragedy and our hearts and minds, i know that

they are really suffering and it's tough right now. >> reporter: the family of navy s.e.a.l.s is mourning his death. the 30-year-old was a tough warrior but a gentle man. on facebook, a prayer page for vaughn. he's one of 22 navy s.e.a.l.s killed this weekend. the elite and claimed destine unit is the tip of the sphere in covert military operations. >> they work in the shadows and as soon as they are back in the shadows the happier they are. >> in coronado i didn't know what to say or do. >> although the navy s.e.a.l.s are sha rouded in seek kra see, its members gave worldwide attention after they raided bin laden's compound. they are no strangers to

sacrifice but there's not much to prepare them for the loss of so many. >> they are national treasurers. they are irreplaceable. you don't find them everywhere. so this was a tragedy for the entire country. >> reporter: and we often hear about how the navy s.e.a.l.s are a very close-knit unit. they will have to rely on those bonds after losing 22 of their members. now the families will have to wait for their bodies to come home. >> an agonizing wait. thank you. with the 30 u.s. troops killed in the helicopter crash, you see the number, 1,728. the helicopter crash has intensified the debate in afghanistan and the president's time line for withdraw. >> the president's decision to withdraw on the schedule that he has outlined, there was no military recommendation. all of our military leaders have said that it increases the risk.

why would we want to increase the risk to the lives of our young men and women who are serving? >> our presence must continue to the ability to protect our national security interests as we go forward. we are not getting out completely. we are reducing the level from taliban taking over the country. >> john harwood is live at the with white house again for us this sunday morning. good morning to you, john. >> reporter: the military consideration that john mccain talked about, leave beside the fact that john kerry disagreed with him. and the american people want the war to come to an end. and the cost is high and the

u.s. government and members of the s.e.a.l. team six, they got osama bin laden in may. that gave the president the freedom to say, look, we have inhibited al qaeda as much as we've hurt them enough that we don't need to stay at this force level. so i would expect the 30,000 surge troops to come out as the president keeps on his path. >> okay. i'm going to ask you to put on your excellent economic perspective hat because we know the asian markets open later this evening is there an expectation of how rocky it will get? >> reporter: well, the question is how much. the administration is hoping that the political controversy around the s&p decision, the fact that they made a math error

before they came up with it, will help blur the impact of this and certainly politically that's in the discussion. listen to this between john mccain and john kerry on meet the tres today. >> i believe this is, without question, the tea party downgrade. this is the tea party downgrade because of minute northey were o a bigger deal. >> the members of the house of representatives had a mandate, had a mandate last november and was jobs and the economy and it was spending. and for them to then agree to tax increases and spending increases, which is obviously repudiation of the mandate that they felt they had. >> notice that john mccain there was some disagreement of the end game on strategy. some republicans, including a member of the republican

leadership, wanted a different position than some of the tea party had and they are going to have a chance as we get to the special committee this fall, it's about to be appointed, to see if there's a some bargain that can be struck. there is some desire within the republican leadership to make that happen. the question is whether the caucus will allow it to happen. >> that is the question, absolutely. john harwood, thank you so much from the white house. >> you bet. >> the credit downgrade to lead to tough choices for many americans depressed with home prices and a tough job market. >> my mortgage payment, my car payment, all of the bad things. >> the 401(k) i'm sure is going to be gone. my cpa says don't look at it. you're young enough, don't pay attention to it right now. i'm already upside down on my house. how much worse can it get? >> it will affect my retirement savings. we're under our mortgage as well but i'm married and have a

husband who can still work and we'll just keep working. >> so what do you have to give up? talk to me on twitter. my handle is @alexwit. meanwhile, they gathered in fullerton, california, for a call of justice for a man that the police beat. and up next, it's a pitcher's worst nightmare. the terrifying moment on the mound. you're watching msnbc sunday. i ! specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice... and my hands were full. i couldn't sort through it all. with unitedhealthcare, it's different. we have access to great specialists, and our pediatrician gets all the information. everyone works as a team. and i only need to talk to one person about her care. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans.

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this was truly a scary sight. colorado rockies' pitcher being

hit in the head by ha hard line and he suffered a fractured vertebrae. he remains heavily sedated. here's the best news of all. he has control and movement in all of his extremities so it's just a matter of time for his recovery. i know we all wish him well. pretty scary. new finger pointing about why the debt ceiling went down to the wire and senators john mccain and john kerry spoke to meet the press this morning. >> there is dysfunction in our system and a lot of it has to do with the failure of the president of the united states to lead. i would remind you that republicans control one-third of the government. >> there was some people in the republican party and mitch mcconnell even admitted this. he said that there were people in his party that were willing to shoot the hostage. they found that the hostage was

worth ransoming. >> joining me is karen, an msnbc analyst and host of roll call tv. thoughts, exchanges, ideas. karen, we have the democrats who are really trying to hit home with americans that the tea party held this process up. so is it working? will they win the message on this or will the blame fall on the president? >> you know, i think this is a situation where there is a bit of blame that goes all around and i think what people outside washington saw and they were saying this in the last few weeks, just as the market was trying to tell us within the last few weeks, which was, we don't really care who started the fight. we want you to come together and end it. so i think both sides slowed down on the finger pointing but that being said, it was the tea party -- when you're negotiating with a group of people that says ultimately, we don't care, we're

happy to let the thing default, go over the edge of the cliff, whatever metaphor you want to use, that is a very different situation than when you're negotiating with people who say, yes, let's come to the table and really negotiate. so, i would point out that it was the tea partyiers held hostage during this and speaker boehner did the best that he could. remember, he couldn't even get his own deal passed a couple of times. he did the best he could. but even he admitted that he was dealing with a pretty extremist group in his party. >> so a newark ton post article, i'm asking to you look at a potential increase in the debt limit as a leverage moment when the white house and president obama will have to deal with us. robert, isn't it dangerous to use a possible default as leverage here and what karen is describing here as held hostage, would that not hardball them from coming out the other side?

>> well, using people as hostage, i.e., the american economy, if eric cantor said that, it's unfortunate. let's remember that these are elected officials. let's remember that mr. and mr. america out there, regardless of where they came from, they sent a message to washington that they were sick and tired of business as usual. i'm not exactly sure we should continue to put -- >> i just want to ask you here -- i've got to ask something. they've sent people to washington because they are tired of business as usual. but it seems that they would interpret that as, hold your ground and stay firm. not talk to the other side, not listen and react to say we're not even voting on this before we even see it? >> no, of course not. you have to have that conversation. when you're in leadership, you have to give and take. and remember at the end of the

day, even half democrats voted against this. we have some members of the partisan party and it stinks. but back to your point, alex, look, we have to have a national conversation about debt. we have to have a national conversation about where our priorities lay. it was a circle and firing squad. everyone was to blame here, interesting the president and even including members of the republican party as well. >> i'm going to throw that at you because there are reports that the president did not stand his ground, that he cave, that he told senators, i have no choice. do you think he could have handled this differently? >> you know, as a daughter of a negotiator i probably would have handled it differently. i certainly have my issues with the way the president handled the negotiations. that being said, and one person said to me and i think it's a

very fair point. you're the president of america. you know that you're negotiating with the people who would let the united states of america default. i can't blame the guy for saying, i cannot let that happen. somebody has got to foot the bill here. i think we have top grant the president at least this idea that i need to compromise given that the other side is not willing to compromise and is willing to do something incredibly destructive for our country. >> but the larger point is that the president continued to shift his policy throughout january. a lot of people, including the republican party, had no idea where the president stood. so thus in the process, how do you negotiate with someone where you don't even know, a, where their principles are or where they are shifting to and from.

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authorities in fullerton, california, are facing protests

because of the death of a man last month. it was a beating death of kelly thomas. six police officers involved have been placed on administrative leave. joining me from california is susan with the orange county district attorney's office. thank you for joining us. >> good morning. >> so do the protesters have a point? should these officers be charged as a result of their actions? >> we are gathering the evidence and will take action based on that investigation. it's understandable that they are upset and we're trying to gather the information as quickly as possible to make a filing decision one way or the other. >> is there a video camera near that bus stop area? can you confirm that and do you know what's on it? >> we have. i have seen the videotape twice now. there is a videotape from a pole at the bus depot. it's controlled by the fullerton police department. >> can you describe what you see

on it? i mean, does it capture the incident? i don't want to tell you what is on it. we are still looking for witnesses to come forward and we want the witnesses, if there is a trial, to testify as to what they saw at the incident, not what they heard from the media or sell in the media. what i can tell you is that the video in itself is not complete. it never is in these types of situations. that's why we're doing these types of investigations, talking to people, canvassing the area, gathering toxicology reports. we're still looking for the cause of death and we need all of those things before we make a filing decision one way or another. >> absolutely. well, the officers' attorney says no excessive force was used and i guess many people out there, given what happened in the ultimate demise, no excessive force was the pivotal point here, was this a criminal

act? >> you know, i'm not sure how the attorney could say that since he has no access to the incident and he knows nothing about the incident perhaps besides what his client has told him. what i can tell su that we are gathering the evidence to prove whether or not a crime took place or not. and unfortunately, right now we don't have the cause of death. we are waiting for that from the coroner's office. they are working on that as quickly as possible. i don't know how that attorney could say such an irresponsible thing before he even knows the evidence. >> susan, how concerned are you of this being a flash point and this being something that may just keep getting bigger and bigger? and what's the d.a.'s office doing to tampen things down? >> you know, people need to have trust in the system. any human being who has heard right before he died, any human

being would feel sad, it would hurt. and we understand why the public is upset but they need to trust the process that the orange county's district attorneys office is reviewing the case, we have more than 80 witnesses, we're canvassing the area. we've put a lot of resources into this. the d.a. has told us that it's a top priority in their office and they need to have confidence one way or another the truth will come out. either the truth will come out by way of a public trial or our office will offer a full and public and factual analysis and legal analysis as to why charges were not filed. we're doing everything we can at this point to bring the truth out to the public. >> from the orange county d.a.'s office, susan, thank you for your time on msnbc. fear that the upheaval in london is not over. what's in thd that i put on my children's plate. that's why we use all-white meat,

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the deaths mark the deadliest single loss for american forces in the decade-old war. the taliban claiming responsibility and new this morning, an afghan official says there is new fighting in the very area where the helicopter went down. of course, navy s.e.a.l.s undergo some of the rigorous, mersless air land and see training, so much so that many don't make the cut. those that do, however, are only a special breed of soldiers but among america ds elite. my next guest is not only a former s.e.a.l. but with 26 years of service, he has, of course, paid the ultimate sacrifice, having lost one of his sons in combat. ryan, thank you so much for

being here and we're sorry for your loss. >> thank you, alex. >> let me ask you what your initial reaction was when you heard the shoot down of the men on board? >> you're immediately heart broken. these are national treasurers. they are not found on every corner and it's a heartbreaking tragedy. >> you know, i want to ask to families and friends of these people, it's obviously that the loss is devastating but you've been through this and experienced the loss of your brother and your own son. what can you say about the kind of men and women that they were and their individual skill sets that may have been lost. these guys seem irreplaceable. >> well, we all think that we are immortal when we're doing this work. it's a tragedy for the force and

for the country. but i'd offer that these young men were doing something that they loved to do with their brothers for a country that they love. they were doing something that they were very good at that few people can do and they were doing something worthwhile. we're all going to die some day and to die so well. >> what kind of dangers do men like the navy s.e.a.l.s face that are above and beyond that which their colleagues in the u.s. armed forces are facing on a daily basis? >> well, when you're on the tip of the sphere, there's not always the support and you go back to your training to get out of the bad situations. unfortunately, they were not able to bring that training to bear. >> do you have an opinion as to what you think went down here? >> no. i have no more idea than what has been reported in the press.

>> okay. how do surviving members survive this kind of devastation? what are the techniqueses that are either talked or instick tifl develop to deal with this? because you worry about their ability to move forward. they are human beings, after all. >> well, they are. first of all, for the families, it's a small family. it's a small community. they will try to find privacy to heal. i think that this will only increase the resolve of the warrior. it won't deter the s.e.a.l.s. the enemy knows and fully knows that the s.e.a.l.s are going to answer the bell every time it is rung. this is not a deterns in any

manner. >> thank you for you're time. >> you're quite welcome, alex. for the latest, logon to our website at msnbc.com. let's move now to another developing story from overseas. the unrest in england where authorities are going to regroup after yesterday's violent proof there. and looters also shocked a shopping district, leaving several businesses significantly damaged. is the unrest not over? >> that's right. the local residents are getting very angry, first of all, about the killing on thursday night that began with the protest and it was last night, 50 people outside of the police station protesting about the killing of the men, 29-year-old father of

two who the police said was a gangster. they were trying to arrest him, apparently. a shot was fired and the policeman's life was saved by the bullet that hit his radio, his walkie-talkie when he fired, killing two shots killing the man. a protest out the police station, about 50 people looting and stealing and police are concerned that there will be more trouble there tonight. i was there just a few hours ago and i was told by young people there that they are expecting more violence this evening, alex. >> so what are police doing? what can they do? >> well, there is more and more people being draft into the area. there was one area called wood green where there was a shopping mall, cars parked around shops.

looting was going on for a couple of hours and not one policeman showed up the entire time. if they need more police, they are being drafted in, units of police are being brought in from outside london to help the police in the top district. mind you, it's pretty stormy outside. there could be rain and that may dampen the spirits. >> thanks, mar din. >> thank you. deadly violence continuing to take a terrifying toll in syria where activists say that they have been killed across the country. among them, 38 in the eastern city of syria. then in israel, more than a quarter million people protested yesterday against the rising costs of living. demonstrators waved flags and chanted as they line the streets

in jerusalem and tel-aviv. we are getting word this hour of the death of the man who may be best remembered for his efforts to save new york city from bankruptcy back in 1975. former new york governor hugh kerry and pushed welfare and job benefits. andrew cuomo praised him as a man with witt and success. 92 years old. specialists, lots of doctors, lots of advice... and my hands were full. i couldn't sort through it all. with unitedhealthcare, it's different. we have access to great specialists, and our pediatrician gets all the information. everyone works as a team. and i only need to talk to one person about her care. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans. that's health in numbers.

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tiger woods has lost another sponsor. bringing now the number of six corporate sponsors that tiger has lost since he's revealed his affair with multiple women. his earnings have dropped from

over $100 million in 2008 to a reported $20 million expected this year. just hours before the financial markets open in asia, more bad news from standard & poor's. the agency says it may not be done downgrading the u.s. credit rating. >> we have a negative outlook, which is a longer time frame from six months to 24 months. and and the fiscal united states deteriorates further and if the political gridlock leads to a downgrade. it's one in three chance over that period. >> good morning. >> good morning, alex. >> i want to get your reaction to another possibility of a downgrade. as i watch this guy, he seems so -- >> it was released on friday

evening and its been discussed by the ratings team over more openly and as we said yesterday, they are making a political calculation, the gridlock in washington will lead us to a point where we cannot solve our fiscal crisis. i did not know that they were arbiters of our political environment. it's a factor that goes into rate our country's sovereign debt. how politically stable are they, how economically stable. we are not a country that has any problem whatsoever in repaying our debt. and so it's certainly not in the near term. but you bring up a real good point. since when is standard & poor's a political policy as opposed to economic poll tea. i know that you are intertwined but i'm curious, when you look at where we stand now, here's

our performance. no longer consider with belgium and new zealand and the usa a negative outlook which means that we could be down there with bermuda, kuwait and spain. >> i don't understand how france has aaa ratings given their problems. the french banks have yet to reveal the extent of the damage that they suffered in 2008 and european bad debt that has been issued by some of these peripheral countries that they themselves are in a great deal of difficulty. what is being discussed is a preverse reaction tomorrow in the markets meaning that if you're going to flee u.s. treasuries because of the downgrade, where are you going to park your money? what we don't know is that the international reaction.

china has been highly critical of the u.s. and there was a piece in one of their party papers yesterday suggesting that we need to get off our addiction to debt. the europeans said that they will continue to hold regulators and they are telling banks that they are unaffected despite the collateral and nor will mutual funds or money markets if there was foreselling of treasuries, that would cause the interest rates to spike. on friday there were rumors that this was going to happen which is why the market went from up 175 on a better than expected jobs number to down to 245. we don't know whether it was in the market or not in the market. i think we'll find out tonight when asia opens. >> you said you don't understand how standard & poor's can look at the countries of the uk and france and give them aaa rating

and do you understand why the white house as pushed back so vem mentally and said that the numbers don't add up. and what does that do to the credibility of the standard & poor's. >> they missed the subprime debaulk kell and aided and abedded the process of creating those toxic vehicles known as collateralized debt obligations, also known as derivatives. haven't said anything until the critical juncture. it took 224 years and 41 presidents to amass $1 trillion of debt in the united states and it's taken only about three presidents to add another 13 trillion n that interim, when the debt doubled from 2001 to 2009, they were remark clee silent. in fact, they have just began to say things. so once again, they are years late and trillions of dollars short. >> i want you to weigh in on the news that came out with the whole debt downgrade

overshadowed and that was the jobs report. with the unemployment rate dipping ever so slightly, from 9.2 to 9.1, 117,000 jobs added last month, better than expected but not significant. >> not enough to really turn the picture around. the unemployment rate went down because 3,000 people left the workforce. so it changes the way that they calculate it and makes the rate go down instead of going up. so the number of average over the last three months has been subparred and we need at least 150,000 jobs per month to keep up with growth and labor force. to add jobs you have to be at 250 on a net basis to bring that unemployment rate down and improve the labor market. so the problem that the s&p creates here, it's complicating an already difficult situation. we're softening up in terms of the economy. we have the european debt crisis. china is slowing down.

if this adds more uncertainty in the ee situation and the market responds, consumer spending weakness double dip recession h. >> put tape over your mouth. >> when i get home, i'm sure. >> thanks very much from cnbc. thank you. at the box off, the rapes going wild and have the smush was and cowboys and i'll yoepts run. most folks are flocking to see "rise of the planet of the apes" more than every other movie. they will win this weekend with as 50 million take, doubling the smush was and cowboys and aliens. hi, i'm doing my back-to-school shopping and i saw another store's ad for these crayons at a lower price. no problem -- i can match that right here. oops -- i don't have the ad. you don't need it. oh, what about a coupon for these pens? yeah. easy.

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new york city mayor michael bloomberg is hoping to change lives with a new program. just last week, he announced the

details of a three-year program designed to help more than 300,000 young black and hispanic men. the 130 million dollar initiative will be rolled out this fall and include job placement and fatherhood classes. bloomberg is pitching in with some of his own cash to make this happen. we should say billionaire george soros is doing it as well. joining me now, "new york times" education reporter fer nan da santos. good morning and welcome. it's a great program. can you tell us what it is all about and how it is being structured? >> the interesting thing about it instead of being something focused solely on educational attainment, solely on job placement or job training, it offers this sort of holistic approach, it's how a lot of people have described this initiative, because it deals with problems from the moment a child is in school or at least tries tie dress it that way all the way until they are maybe a man out of prison in search for a job. obviously, the big question here is always about perceptions,

right? can things -- can people change the way they see themselves, meaning the black and young and latino men participating in it and can society look at them differently? >> one thing that will help will be the infusion of cash, that incentive to have money to do things, emkate themselves, look at the disparity between the black and hispanic males there is a graphic we are going to put up here, first of all, the graduation rate for gentlemen 16 to 24 years old, the whites 70%, black, what 48%, hispanics, 47%. i mean, that is a big difference and if you incent them to study, to educate themselves that's got tonight beginning right there. >> certainly. and you have to start somewhere. one interesting thing is these are problems, especially for black men since slavery ended, talk 00 years of attainment that has been lee bee low or beneath those of white men.

where it is a noble initiative and while it is an interesting approach offering these educational opportunities there is a lot to be done from everybody. the money is there as you said, $130 million. and it will be there for three years. is three years going to be enough? a lot of people don't think so and the idea is who is going to carry it forward? >> do you think this is something that will be looked at as a type of program that can be replicated else where? what makes new york different? >> new york is different because it's so huge, right? we are talking about a city of 8 million people, 300,000 men, as you mentioned, would be potentially benefitting from these programs, but of course, new york is a large urban sent who thank faces -- whose problems are similar to others across the country n a smaller scale, you could replicate that. i think that is part of the strategy here, create things to serve for a model for other cities. three years of hope ahead thank you so much for joining us from the "new york times." that's wrap, everyone, live

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