night with the reforms. this is the ed show on msnbc. see you tomorrow night. bad times. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, show us your plan, mr. president. really it doesn't matter whether s&p was right or wrong to downgrade america's credit rating, does it? markets agree. we have a problem. the dow plunged almost 635 points today on the first day of trading after s&p's downgrade. it was the dow's worst day since december 1, 2008. it's now lost almost 2,000 points over the past two weeks. 2,000 points lost in two weeks. the president came out this

afternoon and blamed the tea party. he may be right. what we need now is not blame but leadership. we need the president to produce, i think, saying this tonight, a two-point plan. a job creation plan for the short run and, two, just as important, a debt reduction plan for the long term. come out with the plan now. yes, cuts and entitlements, also make the wealthy pay their fair share and dare the republicans to say no. corporations and the rich don't have to contribute. say that, mr. republican. just the poor. the middle class and the elderly. this is the american people and money watchers know where the president wants to take us. what would turn around the markets? our big question of the night. what steps would give the world confidence that we've got our act together here in america? we're going to look at this from two angles. washington and wall street tonight. and this saturday, of course, a major test of republicans who want to be president.

the straw vote coming up and perhaps no one has more to lose than michele bachmann counting on a big win in iowa. subject of two big profiles in this week's "new yorker" magazine. there it is. a questionable, i would say now, controversial cover of "newsweek." her deep-seated belief government is the enemy. this weekend's disaster in afghanistan ripped the scab off that story. what are we find-the-fighting there over there and the end game and what does victory, there's a word, look like in afghanistan? richard engel is the expert. and i wish a man who led back to greatness, bringing peace to northern ireland and taught us a lot about fiscal responsibility. we start with the president's address earlier forward and got to hear his reaction to the s&p's downgrades last friday night. was he able to inspire confidence and prove he's still in charge? we'll ask that now. former pennsylvania governor el rendell and michael steele former republican chairman. we need details.

governor, thank you for coming on and i have the question before us. you watched the president today. you know the fix we're all in right now. the market is down 2,000 points in less than two weeks and it may not stop going down. how did he do today as the leader of the country? >> i thought he just gave us words. he's got to give specifics, details and lead. do exactly has you say. he's got to be able to convince the country first, yes, we've got to reduce the debt and deficit and we've got to make -- cuts to entitlements, defense and in fact races revenue from the sources you indicated. at the same time, we've got to invest to get this economy going, to create jobs in the short run and long run economic competitiveness. that's why today the organization i head with mayor bloomberg, building america's future, we unveiled our plan. our plans calls for a ten-year infrastructure plan spending $200 billion more each and every year on infrastructure. that's not just federal money.

that's all money. federal, local, state, private investment. but $200 billion more. that will produce 5 million jobs each and every year for the next ten years. >> that's the question, michael. you're a republican, here for that reason to a large extent. what about this situation today. i am scared about this market. >> i am, too. >> america's lost credibility for whatever reason in the last two weeks. you can blame the tea party. i do. you can blame, what? what's wrong? what's the president supposed to do? >> you can blame the entire system. i think both of you, the governor and you both hit it right on the head. the president came out and said the same old same old. didn't add anything new. didn't leave the americans to believe he has an agenda. you have wall street hemorrhaging 600 points, the people hemorrhaging confidence in leadership in washington, including the president and the country is not, it's not a malaise, it's a funk. in a spot right now where we're settling with a bald visioned

plan. maybe you should run for office. lay out a bold plan that says, look, this is going to be the jobs plan. all right? republican, democrats, take it or leave it. i'm the president. i see where the people are. this is what i want to do. you can either follow me or get out of the way. that has not come and that's why we are where we are. >> back to governor rendell. where we are, my two-step plan. simple. real jobs. infrastructure, a smart word. even narrow it down to construction jobs on sewer and water and bridges and road stuff that everybody uses every day when they flush the toilet, turn on the faucet. every day they go across a bridge, ride down a road. everybody knows this stuff is fallen to hell and real work, not funny work. number two, we've got to get credibility. governor back to you. i think -- i'm not an expert how he can be president of the united states. i can step back and watch it from a day later, but it seems like there was a couple steps missed here. had he went to the tea party crowd they were pushing boehner around all day long.

he could have said to them, okay. we have differences of opinion. here's moo opinion and my plan, dammit, we can cut $4 trillion over the next ten years. big international cuts the world would recognize recognize. i want spending cuts, also revenue from the rich. here's my spending cuts. sticking my neck out, boys and girls. here are the cuts. i want to go after medicare. put some mains testing in here. i want co-pays in here. changes in dates when you're eligible. i'm going to stick my neck out and i want you to do your part and tax the freakin' rich. are you going to do it or not? he didn't go that far. i think he was being coy, cute, too clever by not laying out his plan. what do you think? should he have done it or not? >> absolutely. not just construction jobs on 9 site, manufacturing jobs. manufacturing last week, that's what infrastructure does. you're right. the president's got to stop worrying about politics. this idea somehow we're going to win the election running against

representative ryan's budget and the medicare plan, when the people are looking for the president to lead. if he leads, if he did exactly what you said, and if he put that plan together and we got a big deal and cut $4 trillion off the deficit and invested in infrastructure and research an development, if we put that august together, he would look like a great leader. a landslide victory. >> republican would deal with him on that basis? okay. you put your cards on the table, we'll cut -- >> the answer to that -- >> the answer to that chris, quick. the answer to that is, if they don't, then they've got hell to pay in the election. >> absolutely right. i'm having a deja vu all over again. i sat on this very set with you, chris, and you said exactly has you just said. other republicans said what you said about the president putting forward a plan, and -- >> would they have come back with their own tax increase to back him up? met him half way? >> and the point of matter is, you guys are going back and

forth. we're up against a wall and he wants to say what we've been saying the last three months. >> we're all learning. i'm not an expert. i don't think either side is forthcoming. the president taking today about a balanced approach. i'm saying on a deficit reduction plan. here he is talking about it. >> we didn't need a rating agency to tell us that we need a balanced long-term approach to deficit reduction. that was true last week. that was true last year. that was true the day i took office. what we need to do now is combine those spending cuts with two additional steps. tax reform that will ask those who can afford it to pay their fair share, and modest adjustments to health care programs like medicare. making these reforms doesn't require any radical steps. what it does require is common sense and compromise. >> well i think they do require

radical steps and he should be ready to lead us that way. the today's market plunge, friday the s&p downgraded the u.s. credit rating. today s&p downgraded credit ratings of both fannie mae and freddie mac and moody's another rating agency threat be to downgrade u.s. credit as well. there's the problem. i go back to you, michael. he says nothing radical, do it with a little finesse. he's not being roosevelty enough here. we face the challenge and until he's willing to say it's big enough for me to tell you. here are the cuts i want, here's the tax increase ice want. i'm putting it on the table. >> i agree. i won't argue. that's what i've been saying. put your plan on the table. ryan went out on a limb. everybody in this town knows he went out on a limb with a big plan. one he knew he would get blown up on yet he put it out there. what was he met with? crickets and criticism. the reality is the president put himself in this box by knot, the

governor and yourself has said, come up front and say exactly what it is. >> talk about this. the president of the united states right now. i don't know what his plan is, governor. you're a politician, you know how this works. going on the road, michigan, minnesota, iowa, other states out there. virginia. what good, what can he do on the road? i'm wondering if he's doing what pawlenty would do or some middle-level republican would do right now? a bus trip. i don't want to downgrade. people need to meet their president, good for them, but does he need to bring something along concrete? >> the bus trip is a great idea if he was going to spell it out. chris, i absolutely agree with you. he's got to be bold. this is not the time to ink tinker at the edges. we plead to do something to restore the world's confidence in our economy. the financial community's confidence in our economy and the american's people confidence in our economy. he can defend the people. it he looks and acts like a leader if things turn around eel win a landslide victory.

don't worry about that. he said it before. he should mean it in his heart, i always tried to govern that way. do what you believe in. we were sent leer for. do what you believe it right and let the chip fall where they may. >> that's what did you in philadelphia as mayor. i never forgot it, when you came in. made the tough decisions, unions didn't like it. friends got you elected didn't like it. >> nobody liked it. >> by the way, a man we lost this weekend, huey, the governor of new york come into new york in '75, when that city was broke and did all the right things. and made it sound again. we have a new york today, the most exciting city in the world because of nap thank you, ed rendell and michael steele. coming up, a huge drop in the stock market, talking about the economic aspect of this. 634 points just today. 2 thousand in points in two weeks. what will it take to turn this around? hard reality here. boy, a tough thing to face right now. sliding and hasn't stopped

sliding and nobody has a reason to believe it's going to stop sliding this week. 600 points in a day. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. [ male announcer ] if it's true that sharks can sense even a drop of blood from a quarter of a mile away, which razor would you use? ♪ ♪ ♪

consider what happened on this day back in 1974. president richard nixon announced his resignation because of the watergate scandal. the first and only u.s. president in our history to resign from office. he delivered an oval office report saying he resigned that night for the good of the country but never admitted wrongdoing. spent much of the speech recounting his accomplishments. he would officially leave office the next day to be seceded, of course, by gerald ford. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." we told you earlier about a drop in the market in the dow, up nearly 2,000 points so far. what can washington do to bring confidence back?

john harwood with cnbc and writes for the "new york times," and melissa a professor at tulane. thank you both for joining us. john, put it together, the economics the president faces in terms of what he can do about it? >> i'm not sure what we had can do, chris. he face twos problems in dealing with republicans. one, they want to take him down politically, and, two, they have a fundamentally different vision of the role of government, and they have a willingness to try to withstand political pressures most politicians you and i covered aren't willing to do that. they don't care too much about wall street or their leadership, and they are so resistant to tax increases, that they prevented john boehner from having the ability to describing that grand bargain with president obama and eastern this afternoon after the market dropped, eric cantor, house republican leader, put positive a letter, with all the

pressure on congress to compromise on tax increases on us, the republicans, to compromise on tax increases. i ask you to resist that pressure. that's what president obama is facing, and unilaterally, michael steele said, follow me or get out of the way. we're not china. he doesn't have the power to implement a debt reduction plan. >> back to you in a minute, melissa. let me propose something. the president has one card to say. come out and say here's my plan pap radical problem facing us now. i have a solution. here's my job solution. 1 million jobs. come out with a way to develop that in a short-term deal with the cyclical problem. the long-term problem of debt, come out with his own $4 trillion plan. he said he has one. tell us what it is, including entitlements and defense. lay it on the table. this is what the country has to do. this is what i want to do, put on more pressure on republicans. what would happen?

>> listen, i'm in absolute agreement about the house, how small the room is in which president obama is currently operating and i hear you. i certainly know i would feel better and many democrats who now will have to make choices in 2012 would feel better with that on the table, but i think the notion somehow republicans will respond, particularly house republicans, particularly tea party house republicans, are going respond to that sort of ordinary politics, this is what makes sense. here's a plan. here's how this will improve our country -- >> what do you do, then? >> that's not what it looks like to me. >> what's the alternative? >> the folk who actually run this country are us. so the notion that the whole responsibility for a jobs bill must come at this point from the president, i think, is inaccurate. i think it's time for us to demand that this house of representatives that's done

little in its time in power since 2010 has now got to give us a jobs bill. the call every single day needs to be for a jobbed bill. >> they're not going to do it. they control the -- let me tell you -- i worked there. the speak herb of the house sets the agenda. he won't bring it up. >> the notion that the president -- >> how do they do this? >> look, i think the republic does it in a couple of way. one, they take immediately to the airwave, to our capacity as a public to actually speak directly to our representatives. but i think the other piece of it is to resist this notion that, if president obama just became sufficiently john wayne if he just sort of was strong enough and courageous enough, would i like to see a little more pushback? sure. this is a fundamentally pragmatic president. he has been from the beginning. some of the fire and the passion here is going to have to come from ordinary american citizens.

>> let's talk about that. i don't see the labor unions of this country with big -- i don't know why they don't have demonstrations in washington with 1 million people coming to washington like in the civil rights movement, the vietnam movement. >> they're doing that in wisconsin now. >> let's talk about what's not happening. where is the action from the people you talked about? where is it? where's that action you're talking about? >> for example, on unions. in wisconsin they are literally fighting for the spirit and soul and the union power in wisconsin, but i agree part of it is, one of the reasons people are not in the streets is in part because people have very few resources now. this is the painful piece. that not having jobs they're also in a circumstance where it's also very difficult for people to do this, but i think it's the only chance here. >> are you seriously argues we can't have a massive national call? >> oh, no. i think we can. >> ignite the country -- >> how do they do it? >> i think we do it as we've always done. do it community by community,

local community based organizations and demonstrations. and i think what will happen with a march on washington? maybe. far more importantly we have to remember the tea party did not get leer from being kind of dropped down from a ufo. the tea party was voted into office. >> i don't see this happening. i'm waiting for people to do this. and i don't see -- i don't see the auto workers, i don't see anybody in the streets of washington. i go out, don't see anybody there. we had rallies in the middle of the night with steel workers, officially organized them. did stuff that got done. we made noise. knew how to keep pressure. went out on the streets. made sure everybody knew what wasn't getting done in the districts. i don't see anybody do doing this. the president of the united states has to lead. that's my art. your thoughts, john? >> there is another way. i agree, chris i don't see spontaneous pressure coming up. first of all, the president's own ratings are fairly weak and many americans are confused about who's to blame for the economic situation we're in. but you did notice that there

were cracks in the republican leadership, cracks in establishment republicans versus tea party republicans at the end of that last debate, and the reason that there were cracks is that people like lamar alexander, people like mitch mcconnell, like john boehner, were worried about the consequences of a default and a catastrophic reaction. >> okay, john -- >> didn't get to default but we're seeing reaction now and that's what republicans can understand and act upon. >> two great reports. one is eric cantor's worried that the grown-ups will take over. that there will be pressure on the people to raise taxes as part of a solution. you're also saying there are people who are already

grown-ups, i recognize people like boehner would like to save the american people from collapse. what's the president do given those two facts? back to melissa. given that information, there are republican hess can reach a concern by the crazies on the right reflected in the smart thinking by eric cantor they're exposed as having been too radical? how can he take advantage of that? >> two thing. first, you saw him respond to the criticism he face and you haven't laid out your plan. he said today he was going to lay out for specifics and he's done. i would not expect, even though there are democratic economist whose agree with you, we ought to have a major jobs program. but the other thing the president can do is to sharpen the contrast between the visions of the two parties. remember, the reason that republicans won't deal on taxes is because they want to reduce our deficit by shrinking government. what does that mean? medicare and social security. their vision is a smaller entitlement culture than we've got. if the president can make the contrast between a cutting medicare a little and cutting it a lot, that could put pressure on them. >> okay. melissa, quickly. >> exactly where i agree. give people the place to rally

around by making the plan clear. that's where i absolutely agree with you. i don't think simply by saying it he gets the republicans onboard. if he makes the plan clear, there's something the people have to rally on, but they'll have to do it. if the pressure doesn't come from the bottom it will not be moved. >> people get back and the president's got lead. thank you john harwood. aye want to know the president's plan for america's economic salvation. thank you melissa. up next, comedians love sarah palin. the butt of many jokes. the funniest of them all won't go near her. a funny guy. he's in our "sideshow." you're watching "hardball" on msnbc.

back to "hardball" now. the "sideshow." first up, this one didn't take long. the top secret details of the bin laden operation handed over to film director katherine

bigelow, won an oscar for the film "the hurt locker" passed directly to film focusing on navy team s.e.a.l. 6 who captured and killed osama bin laden. the film is set to be released in october 2012, one month before the presidential election. next up, an unlikely comparison during a prayer event in texas. john hagee prayed over the host of the event saying rick perry, who's had courage today to call this time of fasting and prayer just as abraham lincoln did in the darkest days of the civil war. well, are we forgetting perry and lincoln would likely have been on opposite sides of the cessation argument that brought about the civil war? perry began floating this idea back in 2009 in a show of opposition to higher taxes. next up, finding it difficult to scrape by without being a target of comedians' punch liens in their career. an unlikely figure 2 is managing to do just that.

sarah palin is a voiding him. let's hear an explanation for keeping his routine palin-free. >> i heard her speak the first couple of times after a couple of weeks and i knew she was like for me, the mother load, but i was so shocked that she was running. it stunned me so much, i said onstage, i wouldn't make jokes about her, because i could not live in this world if i believed she was a real person. i have, for the entire time that she's been around, treated her as a hallucination. >> hallucination. i love that guy. we'll be right back. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc.

now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." a devastating weekend in afghanistan. 38 people were killed when a military helicopter was shot down by insurgents. among the dead, 22 navy s.e.a.l.s. of course, the heroes of our country. here's has president obama said today. >> i've spoken to our generals in the field as well as president karzai, and i know that our troops will continue the hard work of transitioning to a stronger afghan government and ensuring that afghanistan is not a safe haven for terrorists. we will press on and we will succeed. but now is also a time tom reflect on those we lost. in the sacrifices of all who served as well as their families. these men and women put their lives on the line for the value that binds us together as a nation.

>> for more, richard engel in kabul. i can't think of more depressing news than we got when this happened. what's the feeling over there? >> reporter: well, the feeling is one of frustration. if you look at that bite you just played by president obama he said that the troops' mission is to transition to a more stable and more prosperous afghan government. i think that was the wording. that's the meaning more or less, and that isn't happening, and the concern is that the afghan government is just getting weaker and weaker. as the afghan government gets weaker the taliban and other militant groups gets stronger. that's what we saw over the weekend in this particular raid. the taliban has become very strong in this one valley about 60 miles southwest of kabul. there was an air assault mission, initially led by the ranger regiment, some s.e.a.l.s were brought in as reinforcements and then they were shot down in that chinook helicopter as they were going in

and people say this is just a sign that the central government here of karzai isn't strong enough. there's a transition going, taking place right now, as u.s. troops are starting to pull back and get pull out of this country very slowly. 10,000 this year. 20,000 u.s. troops next year. and as these troop, coming out, the situation is getting more and more chaotic and more and more dangerous. >> just a question about the deployment of our troops. are we fighting the front line war against the taliban or is the afghan forces doing that? >> reporter: we are certainly fighting the front line war against the taliban, and that is particularly in remote areas, and let's use this valley where that attack took place as an example. there are about a half dozen american outposts and observation posts in the tangi valley where the helicopter was shot down. there was one american outpost right near where the incident

took place. that outpost was supposed to be handed over to afghan control in april. the afghan government never took it. they decided that they couldn't handle it. they couldn't handle security any that area and the base was abandoned, parts of it were blown up. that is happening in a lot of areas where u.s. troops are pulling back. they are simply not being replaced, and what is going in place is the taliban, which decided that it could make an even more stable stronghold for itself in this area, and the results were clear over the weekend. >> thanks so much. as always, richard engel in afghanistan, the best reporting around. what this means for the bigger picture, joined by a former marine captain who resigned from the state department a few years ago in protest. and a retired army captain and an author. only six minutes. i hate to tell you, this is a heart wrencher. the unit, of course, the

s.e.a.l. team, the people that captured bin laden, the best of the best, and here we have the guys on a mission, which i don't understand exactly they're fighting a front-line on a government that isn't worth much. an opium operation, and we're doing the fighting, not them. your thoughts, matthew? you're against this war. what's showing in the policy here? the fact we're fight this operation, and we're going the fighting? >> i agree with the president's goals in that region. stabilize afghanistan, have a stable region because of pakistan, india, the nuclear arms between the two of them. al qaeda's concern, however, our policies there have just made the region worse. and al qaeda's not present. so what we've seen is a policy that wasn't working a couple years ago. we've doubled down on it a couple years ago. we knew that the insurgency was growing because of a corrupt predatory illegitimate government, and what did we do two years ago? we doubled down on that.

>> let me ask wes moore. why's the united states fighting the taliban in afghanistan? why are we, the anti-taliban force in that country? how did we get this job? >> well, we got this job because we've seen ow the mission continue topped evolve with afghanistan. initially when we first had trooped in afghanistan we didn't have a real commitment. the message was exactly right. the president in many ways not only doubled but tripled down on the afghanistan operation. weren't of the largest challenges we had with the afghanistan operation one of the lead variables whether or not we had proceed successfully with this it relies on some type of afghanistan reconciliation with the government, which is difficult. just a few days ago you had the afghan high peace council who came out and said the taliban is willing to negotiate and willing to be part of this larger negotiation, come to the peace table, and then just yesterday a spokesperson for mullah omar says not so fast. not willing to negotiate with anybody. >> they're cutting people's heads often if they show any

sign of working for the government or for the coalitions forces over there. they're going from cutting peoples heads off to negotiating with the government? killing people they think might be with the other side for the heck of it and then be a part of a jamboree, a kum ba yah there? is that reasonable? how long we'll stay in, the near term? >> more complicated than that. it's still not a unanimous decision or vote in afghanistan whether or not this is something they want. you still have a very divided region. you still have a very divided country whether or not the taliban should and could be welcomed back to take on any form of leadership whatsoever. afghanistan is still a traveled country. the idea of a nationalistic system -- >> sorry to interrupt you. ten years. the british went through it, soviets went through it. we used to cheer for those stingers against the ruskies.

i don't cheer. like every other american i had a miserable weekend. when my daughter told me about it, i said, this is horrible. this is horrible. some of our best and brightest going in there, people i know whose kids are going over there, joining these elite units fighting for their country. and given missions like this. whose brain is behind putting americans on the front line in a country we'll be out of in a few years. the taliban will be there when we leave. >> yeah. >> your thoughts? sorry. go ahead. >> i was saying, then what happened this weekend really compounds that as well, because what happened this weekend isn't just a personal tragedy. it's also a personnel tragedy as well. you know, you look at how much soldiers. there are approximately 300 members of s.e.a.l. team 6. they are our spartans. you know, the best and some of the best we have, and you look at the fact 22 were lost in one operation.

that's approximately 7% of s.e.a.l. team 6 that was lost and as these days are going on, today they are starting to release the names and faces of the people we lost. fact is, these are people who don't do this for the glory. talking about s.e.a.l. team 6, the delta force, people who go out and know their name, not known. identities not known unless tragedy sets in. with every name and face we see on the television screen we know there's a reason why their name is being released because they paid the highest price to be called american. >> unbelievable. well said. well said. your thoughts? you're against this war. i think you're right. i don't know what to say. what does anybody think victory look like? if we stay there 200 more years? the tall ban will still be there and the fundamentalists. go back to live the sharia law, and behead people that don't obey the law. and pe will be there whenever we leave. why are we staying another week? >> we should have two years ago,

should have disengaged. we didn't that that. now we're in a police a lot of us are saying, look, i'm not sure what to do, because you took a situation that was really bad and now you've made it completely chaotic. >> about as much chance of turning them into us as they have of turning us into them. get them out of this country so fast, kill them until they left and wouldn't change a bit. hate them more the second day than the first they were here and hate them a lot more after ten years. cut common sense to this. i'm sorry, we have to go. this war makes no sense at all. thank you. great to have you on pap great guy to come on. matthew i know where you stand. you're right. up next, michele bachmann, a presidential race in her sights. that keeps it simple. talk about fundamentalism. working in both directions. the tea party the best at fundamentals. how far can she ride this anger wave? this is "hardball" only on esurance instantly compares our car insurance rates

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rick perry is preparing to get into the presidential race looks like. he may clear his intentions to run this weekend. he'll stop short of a formal announcement this time. perry host add prayer service in texas this past weekend visits south carolina and new hampshire on saturday. politico reports this statement should clear up any lingering questions about his plans. we'll be right back.

we're back. republican presidential candidate michelle bachmann is making news for the photo on "newsweek," and ladies, thank you for joining us. you know, i think there's lots

of hot questions raised about this. women candidate, issues of sexism. do you think she's a victim of sexism, condescension, elitism, a better word, by this bicoastal press? lois? do you feel she's been? >> can i bring your attention to "newsweek's" cover? >> looking at it right now. >> on sarah palin a couple weeks ago. gorgeous cover. looks like a model. in her shorts she posed. everybody said if was sexist. this one, intense -- >> why is she looking straight up in the air rather than at the person taking her picture. what i'm asking? it's an odd photograph. >> i wasn't there. >> an odd picture. let me go over to somebody not working for "newsweek" to answer this question. completely independent.

you look at pick color of somebody, a contact sheet, all kinds of pictures to choose, they pick a one where she's looking skyward. here's what was said -- michele bachmann's intensity is galvanizing voters in iowa right now and "newsweek's" cover captures that. does that look like she's gadhafi answering to a different authority? does that picture look like intensity, rage, or this woman is a little daffy? >> i'm going with daffy. it also brings to mind her rejoinder to the president's state of the union, she was not looking at the camera. a lot of michele bachmann is worthy of further examination. this seemed a little unfair. it brought the mark warner cover of the "new york times" magazine, they photo shopped his clothes and made him look like a car salesman huckster. this, to me, she looks sort of blank and confused, and i did think it was unfair.

>> back to the content of your piece and the piece i mentioned originally. clearly something is shaping up here. all i do, think about politics when i'm not living a life at home with my family. home with my family, and that is this, there seems to be a narrative growing that michele bachmann will have a lot of impact this week at the iowa straw poll on saturday, the debate this thursday night, and quite probably win the debate -- the caucuses come next winter, but she'll fade, and you end up with probably mitt romney, maybe on the outside, the governor of texas, rick perry. but she fades. is that your sense, she's a roman candle in this campaign, has a role in the beginning but doesn't last until the end? >> yes, i think she's speaking to a very particular segment of the voters now in the country that are angry with washington, angry with obama, they are christian conservatives.

what she does with it, she's going to have momentum and get national attention, what she does with it coming out of ames, i think, will decide what happens next year, but i think right now rick perry could very easily move into her space. >> i think she's a fast burner, big burner, but this christian stuff, and i'm a christian, i'm a catholic, but i have to tell you, i think it scares a lot of people she's carrying it too far as part of her political agenda, this idea of running as a christian. not saying i am one, but running as one, seems to be new to american politics. >> yeah, i think with michele bachmann, it's one of the first candidates on the national stage whose ideology is driven by a christian theology, and in the new yorker story that came out, she studied under very, very radical people. people who have questioned whether slavery was really all

that bad, folks who talked about christian readings of the constitution, she is way, way, way out there. >> let's take a look at some of her more notable quotations, let's take a look at these right now. here they are. >> we know there was slavery that was still tolerated when the nation began, but we also know that the very founders that wrote those documents worked tirelessly until slavery was no more in the united states. men like john quincy adams, who would not rest until slavery was extinguished in the country. >> why would somebody say that? i don't chalk that up to ignorance, i chalk that up to a weird ideology that says everybody who's a kid on the east coast or midwest who's gone to mount vernon has seen slave quarters. my god, they had slaves here, this is weird, this is "gone with the wind." everybody's imbued with that history.

everybody knows sally jefferson had slaves, they all did, madison, all had slaves up to the civil war, why did she say the founding fathers were opposed to slavery and fought to get rid of it unless she's involved with some weird fundamentalism that believes the founding fathers were part of the old testament? >> apparently, one of the things she was reading said the founding fathers didn't really free the slaves because they knew it would be difficult for them. >> they were trading in slaves. back to you, alex, you had a strong feeling on this, i know. this slaving thing is essential to our understanding of who we are as a country. it's our original sin, we're still trying to get past. >> not part of the dna of america, and somebody who has studied under folks who said africa was the land of pagans

and it was be something, something that needs to be explored further. also on gay rights, one of her authors said homosexuality end time. >> i'm sorry, on michele bachmann. when we return, let me finish with a tribute to another great irish american leader, the man who saved new york city, huey carrie. let me tell you about a very important phone call i made.

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call or click today for your free information kit with dvd. call the number on your screen or visit tempurpedic.com. tempur-pedic. the most highly recommended bed in america. let me finish tonight with a few words about one of the two great irish-americans to come to office in that exciting american election of 1960. one, of course, was john f. kennedy, the other was congressman hugh carey of new york, he saved new york city from financial collapse, he did it with brains, guts, heart, and common sense. he saw a city, a great city, that had lost its way, and through tough, unpleasant, but necessary steps, won back its good sense and its credit rating. he made cuts that needed to be made, raised taxes and put things back together. he even got a republican president to change his mind about new york, a president that basically told the city to drop dead. today new york is the most vital

city in the united states, more exciting and safer than it's been. every young person wants to be there, hugh carey is the one that did it. he did something else which he'll always be remembered by irish-americans. it was he who ended, for all times, i hope, america's support for violence in northern ireland. started what ended with the good friday, according to that, an end to the troubles, the time of horror that had the irish killing each other for too many years. hugh carey, the man who saved new york, not, i hope, the last irish-american politician, because he was tough, bravely honest, he had guts, because he never lost his faith, because as he said, he was always underestimated. he gives every big-city politician of every background somebody to be truly and forever proud of. i wish his family and all his friends my warmest love of their loss on this great leader and pretty good singer.