investors nervous where things head next. behind the latest plunge, more glaring signs the u.s. economy has stalled, a lack of confidence in our central banks and political leaders plus growing fears of the european debt crisis. meantime, in libya, nbc news learned moammar gadhafi is preparing to flee the country. rebel forces close in and key gadhafi strongholds fall to opposition. today in syria, opening fire on protesters after the white house led international calls for president assad to step down and levy new economic sanctions. in israel, gaza militants firing rockets deep inside israel with israeli forces striking back and striking palestinian targets. we start first with the market. tom kean, editor at large and host on bloomberg tv. tom what should people make? another wild week, lots of grim folks looking at 401(k)s heading into the weekend. >> the right way to think, 30 is or 201k p matt.

a difficult close this friday. really closing soft. 40 position held over the weekend. we go to the what's next. we look forward in the next week and clearly we at bloomberg are focused on the kansas city fed meeting. bernanke will make important comments there. central banks can get us out of this market mess. >> tom, is this a situation where the european banks seem to be requiring some kind of pan-european bailout? is the u.s. and the federal reserve and the u.s. going to be roped in somehow to participating in a european bailout? >> roped in is a very dangerous phrase. the answer's, yes. all the central banks and particularly the central bang of the world can come to the rescue of some of the troubled european banks. they will do it in a way that really, hopefully, doesn't affect u.s. policy. u.s. monetary policy, and even the politics behind the policy.

so the fed can come to the assistance in assisting the european central bank in frankfurt in an effort to get the banks going again. one of the big issue, matt, something you talk about all the time. it's transparency. there's a mystery. more of a mystery to the challenges in europe than to what we see in the united states in the previous quarters and years. >> now, tom, weren't of the things that i think has been frustrating to lots of americans and a theme of dylan's and my own is that at the end of the day, it always gets back to the banks. all the sovereign debt problems we're seeing across, pther from greece to italy to spain ends up being a huge economic problem, because the european banks are undercapitalized and they hold the debt and the don't want to own up to what the -- if you marked that stuff to market, what it would actually mean. do all roads lead to the banksters? >> the roads lead to the banks. interesting, a, who will take

the haircut, take the markdown of the loan? completely different dialogue in europe than in the united states. to dylan the idea, the idea of financial repression. what does it mean for the saver, the people that have been crushed by low interest rates? that is a very important topic. not only among the economists and the elites to talk about it, but i'm hearing more and more about that from the people that listen and watch my program. this financial repression, low interest rates, killing retirees and savers is the fermenting issue as we go into september. >> now, morgan stanley said this week that the u.s. and europe are dangerously close to recession. is that going to affect the market mood as we head into next week? >> no question about it. two issues right now in the next week. one, the fragile banks in europe. the other issue, this american economic contraction and now with it the global contraction. the individuals i spoke to today really focused on europe and

america pulling down the rest of a more buoyant emerging markets. yes, this economic slowdown is front and center into the weekend. >> tom kean from bloomberg news. we'll take the weekend off with our 410 ks and hoping for better news come monday. thanks for taking the time. chaos reigns across north mick africa in the mideast. the battle for libya reaching a climax under the protection of nato air strikes pushed closest to the stronghold. leon panetta says earlier gadhafi's days are numbered and now nbc news learned gadhafi and his family are preparing to flee the capital. elsewhere in the region, ill responds with air strikes after militants fired more than a dozen rockets from gaza. this followed when eight isra i israelis where killed. joining us, ambassador to mark ginsburg and former white house adviser on the middle east.

good to see you. >> good to be with you. >> nbc news reporting gadhafi may be thinking with his family about fleeing the capital nap would be a seminole dwochlt in th development in this. >> planning to leave, we've heard it before. the nato air strike killed members of his family. it's not sure whether or not he'll leave the country or go to his tribe southwest of tripoli, because he is the leader of one of the major tribes in libya. but there's no doubt that the noose is tightening around tripoli. the previously disorganized rebels have clearly become more organized, received a lot of nato support as well as support from gatad and other reconnaissance support which made it much more balanced on the rebels' behalf. >> just to be clear, if gadhafi and his family were to leave tripoli that doesn't necessarily mean this is over, meaning the kind of undeclared six-month war

we're in? it could stilling gone on, he could be leading his side from other places in the country? >> libya is basically a tribal country and gadhafi leads one of the major tribes. there still may be tribes aligned with him. i've been to libya twice. one thing is clear to me about gadhafi. i don't think he's going to pack up and leave anytime soon, if he has a place where he can bring his mercenaries together and fight on to the death, more or less. he is not about to pack up and leave. >> i want to, as we segue to what's going on in syria i want to play a sound bite we have from george lopez, at the croc institute for international peace studies. on "the dylan ratigan show" yesterday, he said this. i'd like to hear it and then get your reaction. >> we have to keep our eyes on where will libya be ten days from now. if there's a continued dramatic move of the rebels in libya, if gadhafi flees, that changes the way they think about what their

situation is. >> ambassador, the impact of what the end game is in libya, if we're nearing an end game, really could send a strong message to the elites around assad and syria? no? >> i don't agree. nato's not involved on behalf of the opposition in syria to basically break the ranks of the military in syria. there's three foundation to assad's longevity. the family business basically controls the military. so far the military has not broken ranks against the assad regime. the mercantile class and two major cities also have no broken ranks and third, we have to remember, iran is pouring huge amounts of military support and financial support and revolutionary guards to back up the assad regime. this is really where it's going to have to be fought out, and, frankly, tsurkey is the key. not the united states. what turkey does may well impact

on what the business community in syria does, vis-a-vis the regime. >> briefly, ambassador, when secretary clinton said yesterday, i think the day before, we want to respect the syrian piece people's wishes, external forces not be involved. what can we make of that? can they prevail without more outside help? >> hard to tell. frankly, given what's taken place, matt, where the assad regime has been more or less able to pound these cities that have risen up against the regime into submission and in the absence of any really strong breaches by the military against the regime, i think the secretary has it right. there is a tiny noose. the economic sanctions of the administration, finally, finally put in place, long overdue, are important, but in the end, as long as iran pours the support in. as long as the opposition remains divided, the key will be

whether or not in the end the syrian military breaks ranks with the regime and at this time, matt, no real indication that's happening. >> 30 seconds before we run ambassador. we appreciate your giving folks their weekend briefing on the trouble spots in the mideast. israel. what do you make of the latest exchange? the death where are we between the israeli/palestinians tangle? >> no doubt as we get closer to his u.n. security council vote on potentially recognizing the palestinians, there's elements with the palestinian more extremist framework that is hamas and other palestinian organizations that want to continue the war against israel. the fact that they were able to attack so far away from the gaza strip shows that the sinai peninsula, when the egyptians pulled out and faced their own problems. the israelis and egyptians are cooperating to bring more force

structure back into the sinai. that's the main snmuggling into gaza. the israelis are deeply concerned what took place. so far away from gaza and hit one of their major cities. the most important coastal resort city, on the red sea. >> mark ginsburg, thanks for helping us make sense of a very tumultuous week in the middle east. we'll be back to you soon. >> thanks for having me. coming up, happy birthday, mr. president. president clinton that is. bill clinton turns 65 today. the power and politics of gray boomers. plus, the disappearing center. americans drifting to political extremes, and what it means for the coming election. plus, who can forget this famous scene? >> yes! yes! yes! oh. oh -- oh -- oh, god. oh. >> got to love that.

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continuing our theory of chaos, washington is full of it. dylan always says and i'm here to tag team him on thises one of the mega problems to fix before we tackle the underlying problems in our country is getting special interest money out of politic. that means campaign contributions. politicians will never be free to get real about solutions if they're constantly worried about alienating the big donors who benefit from the extraction of our government corrupt with big

money has allowed. if you've been watching this week, you know dylan is having our washington insider jimmy williams draft a constitutional amendment to do exactly that. let's bring in our friday mega panel. former clinton white house staffer david and democratic strategist crystal ball and msnbc contributor and "washington post" editorial writer jonathan capehart. welcome. >> hey, matt. >> jonathan capehart, let me start with you. money out of politics amendment being done. you thought about the fact this is, everyone talking about a balanced budget amendment. the big gop stlugs our fiscal woes. maybe we need, since the supreme court ruled so far that the constitution says money equals speech, isn't this kind of an amendment that dylan and jimmy williams are trying to put together equal and maybe more consequential? >> the question i had yesterday had i was on the panel, and didn't speak up fast enough or loud enough to ask the question,

which constitutional amendment would achieve the goal of fixing or at least starting to fix the systemic problems with our government? both the republican conservatives and quite a few democrats think a balanced budget amendment is the way to go to impose at least fiscal discipline on the government, since the government doesn't seem to be able to say no to anybody. meanwhile, the constitutional amendment that's been drafted by jimmy williams and advocated by dylan seeks to pull money out of politics so that the folks in the building behind me can at least go about doing policy honestly and for what's good for the country as opposed to what's good for the people who are contributing to their campaigns and allow them to come to washington year after year after year. that's the question i have, and i'm not sure what the answer is. >> krystal ball, i remember as a

younger staffer in the clinton white house, i remember al gore, the vice president at the time, used to talk about the fact we'd never be able to do health care reform right plus a lot of other stuff right unless we did campaign finance reform somehow first. you've run for office. i mean, this seems to be right. isn't it? >> absolutely. for me, there is no more fundamental issue. for the future of our democracy, than campaign finance reform and also from my perspective, the balanced budget amendment is really a wrong-headed way to tie our policymakers hands in times of crisis. for me, no question which amendment i would rather see. i also want to point out, not just special interest money. the other problem with campaign finance as it stands now is that candidates have a lot of pressure to go outside of their district to seek national money from large individual donors. there is a piece of legislation right now introduced called the fair elections now bill, which would both pick out the special interest money and give candidates an incentive to seek

small dollar donations from inside their district, and i think that's really a smart approach, too. >> let me get david, briefly on this. i think our panel does tilt a little bit west today. so let's play devil's advocate. if we had a conservative here, david, wouldn't they say free speech? good point. if people want to raise their voice in a political process do it through money and this is the way our democracy works. if you can't raise enough, that's your problem and democrats have unions, other groups raising money for them. what's the big complaint? >> right. the conservative line is always, this is a matter of free speech. while everybody in the issue of campaign finance reform is focused on the citizens united decision, the most recent campaign decision out of the supreme court, i'm focused on the 1976 decision which was the first time the supreme court said money is speech. that's the problem. because very often what campaign finance laws try to do is avoid

corruption. the quid pro quo at giving money. that doesn't speak to had a corporation, for example, or a wealthy individual just spends money on a single issue or just spends none elect one person. that's permissible as long as that is the law of the land. what a constitutional amendment would do, change that. we're rewriting the first amendme amendment effect to say money is not speech. you can limit the overall spending on a campaign. that is what happens in other democracies and i would argue it works better. the problem here is this whole notion that money in politics is speech. as long as that's it's law of the land, we're never going to see campaign finance reform. >> we'll come back to that a lot on the "d.r. show." i want to talk about bill clinton and wish him a happy birthday. bill clinton is 65 today pap couple of us worked in his administration. david you did as well as i did. we've actually got a picture of bill clinton when president and a picture afterwards you can kind of compare the then and

now. now, this is -- this is striking to me. let me go back across with david and then to krystal and jonathan. i remember when we were excited about clinton in those days, because he was young. now we're all getting older, i think. this speaks to the boomers hitting rocking chairs. the long-term problems of country has. do you wax nostalgics and feel a little older today? >> i am a lifelong fan of bill clinton. i'm going to wax the in a tall dia. al is looking pretty darn good for 65. at least in his case he got to keep all his hair. more than i can say. in reality, the baby boom generation has been sort of this rorshach test for all of society because it is such a monumental population movement through every phase of life. through the '80s, wall street. guess who was involved then? the baby boomers in late 30s,

getting involved in money. now, look at them. all retiring. what are we talking about, the high cost of health care, medicare, it's gone bankrupt and reform. the baby boom generation as they moved through life has really focused the conversation of america, whatever topic they're facing now, and right now how these entitlements programs like health care is affecting the problem. it's really causing to focus on what's a critical eschew. >> krystal ball, deep thoughts on president clinton turning 65? >> i've been thinking about it. piggy back on what david says. this is not a slam against the baby boom generation. they are the most pandered to voting block in america. part of why we're seeing the policies we are, politicians misread what this generation wants. they think they're all about themselves. low tax rates for themselves. medicare and social security for their generation, why we see policies that cut education, cut environmental programs, and also

maintain medicare and social security for the current retirees, but get it for future retirees. that's just a fundamental misread of what the baby boomers are really all about. we need to start treating america like she's a young, you know, growing invest in the future, invest in education. that's what we really need to get the economy moving forward. >> jonathan, you're going to get more equal time later. the panel will stick around. just talking about that amendment that separates money and politics, and now we want to know what you think should be in it. if you're mad as he lll and what to see action, e-mail your ideas to us on dylanratigan.com. madashell@dylanratigan.com will do the trick. are you getting the congress you deserve? that's next. if you say no, you may be surprised who our specialist says is to blame. ♪ i like dat ♪ ♪ i like dat, all right

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well, while putin is in siberia bagging tigers, what did obama bag on his safari through the midwest? [ cheers and applause ] >> he got a pie. come on, obama. at least throw at a puma! in tough times we americans want a president who is a bad ass. if it's not you it's going to be rick perry. >> strats stephen colbert spoofing on what dissatisfied americans really want in their leader. according to our specialist we may be the ones to blame for washington's dysfunction. alan a political science professor at emory university and author of "the disappearing center." engaged citizens, polarization

and american democracy. welcome. what's your argument? your case about why we need to look in the mirror a little more when it comes to who's to blame for what's wrong with u.s. politics? >> well, basically the argument is that the decisions we see in washington and many of our state capitals reflect decisions that exist with the american public and the american electorate. what's happened over the last several decades is that democrats and republicans have been pulling apart with the public, and this is particularly true of those members of the electorate who are most interested in politics care about it and participate most actively. they're the ones most divided. >> before i get in the panelists with questions, they're champing at the bit. is there a different between schizophrenia and the partisan division you talk about? a lot of folk are just confused or ignorant of the fact most of the budget, for example, is social security, medicare, medicaid, mostly health care and pension programs. then say the want the budget

balanced, cut federal spending but none what medicare and social security touched. isn't schizophrenia arguably a deeper problem? >> no problem most americans are not well inform about the details of the federal budget, about where the money goes, where the money's coming from. that does not, however, change the fact that we have this deep divide with the public on fundamental questions, such as the role of government. what should be the role of government regulating the economy? how generous should social welfare programs be and also on the social issues sump as abortion and gay marriage. there are very deep divisions with the public and those get exacerbated by the fact we have is a big geographical divide so that democrats and republicans are increasingly found in different places, different states, different congressional districts and so on, and that exacerbates the decision we get in congress, for example. >> jonathan capehart has a

question. >> yeah, so how do we get the congress pulled away from the extremes and back to the center? i mean, is it going to require the election of, say, more young members of congress like illinois congressman aaron shock, who's in his 30s? early 30s? will it require americans to send more people from the younger demographic, more solution-oriented demographics than the folks that are coming in now? >> i really don't think that's going to change anything. if you look at the new members of congress, they are just as divided if not more divided than the ones that have been there longer. this new group of republicans that came in amp the 2010 mid-term elengzs and many are younger, you know, they're even more conservative than the republicans there before. i really don't think a younger generation is the angst. the problem is, there are very, very few members of congress who are in the middle right now.

almost none. and it's very hard to get bir partisan compromise when there isn't anyone in the middle. >> krystal ball's got a question. >> hi, alan. i look at the current political landscape. i see republicans too are literally willing to let the nation default in order to get their way on draconian spending cuts and democrat whose have put medicare social security on the table and really only asking for a small tax increase on the wealthiest americans. so to me, it seems like a lot of polarization has happened on the right, and i'd be interested to know. do you agree with that analysis or do you see both sides moving to the extreme? >> i agree to some extent that there's been more polarization on the right, or more movement to the right. if you look at the changes that have taken place in congress over the last 20 or 30 years, republicans have moved further to the right than democrats have moved to the left. northern democrats haven't moved much at all. most of the shift among democrats is simply due to the

fact that the southern conservative wing of the party is gone. and so take them away, and you end up with a more moderate to liberal democratic party. the 2010 elections also get radioed of a lot of 9 more moderate democrats in the house of representative. so the democrats in the house are definitely a more liberal group than they were two years ago. >> david, a good friend closely divided with wisconsin. your question? >> i wanted to bring up the senator from west virginia, chairman jay rockefeller. chairman of the senate commerce committee, who famously said in a hearing not long ago that if it were up to him he would get rid of fox news and msnbc. this network. he felt it was so polarizing. there you have a member of congress saying, hey, we're not the problem. the media is the problem. what do you think about that, alan? >> i think the media reflects the divisions in the country. i really don't think the media are creating the divisions in the country. they may reinforce some of the divisions that exist. jay rock ferreller is sort of an

unusual case in that he is a democrat from what has become a pretty red state. west virginia is a state that used to be reliably a democratic state, but in recent elections, a strongly republican state, and as a democrat from a pretty strongly republican state, i think that it's in his interests to sort of play to the center. he has to appeal to these increasingly conservative republican voters in his state. >> so just time for one last question, alan, because this is all fascinating stuff. what do you say to people who would say independents of the fastest growing group of registered voters or ho don't state affiliation. lots of polls open to the idea of a third party. for those of us who are in the kind of radical center, aren't you wrong in some way in saying it's only left and right? >> i don't think i'm wrong. if you look at independents, you find that the large majority of them are what we call

independent leaners. of the 40% or so of american whose say that they're independents, over 30% typically say they lean one way or the other. and those leaners, those independent democrats and independent republicans, actually think and vote very much like other partisans, and the remaining independents, the pure independents, are generally the least interested, least knowledgeable and least actedive group in the electorate. most of them don't even vote. so actually, that statistic on the percentage of independents in the electorate is pretty misleading. >> alan, we'll leave it there. the book "the disappearing center." i hate it when we have to blame ourselves for some of this stuff, guys. thanks as always to our mega panel. david goodfriend, krystal ball and jonathan capehart. we'll be coming back again later in the show. thanks for your insight, as always, guys. >> thanks, matt. all right. coming up, who needs a

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i'm a six. >> i'm a six, too. >> why don't you mean it? >> why does it come with complications. >> a physical act like playing tennis. >> do you want more beer? >> yeah. >> well -- some might say it's a bit more fun than tennis, just why is that? why scientifically speaking is sex fun? one of the questions xpored e explored in discovery's new show. a consultant for this series. sarah, that's a heck of a business card. >> yes. >> to be carrying around. so i'm sure you get lots of comments on that. start us off with the key question you guys explored, why is sex fun? >> well, sex is fun, because it really intersects with so many different parts of our humanity. we enjoy it on a physical level, on a emotional level. the chemicals released it promotes all kinds of happiness.

it's the thing that kind of unites the human experience. >> and so you know, there's a kind of darwinian angle to this, also. isn't there? the evolutionary psychologist would say, we as species evolved in ways that made this pleasurable so that we'd get our genes into the next genration, perpetuate the species, et cetera. can you talk about that? >> very true. many scientists believe we do have sex to propel our genetic information. so why not make that a pleasurable experience? if you take a look at our closest genetic relatives, they're having sex for many different reasons. they're having sex to continue their species, like we do with our own, but also doing it for pleasure. they're doing it, a sense of cohesion, aid in cooperation. so we have the genetic side effects and the social, cultural side effects. >> do we know anything about other species, the way they get pleasure from sex the way humans do?

i assume the answer would be, yes, which is why all living things seem to be driven in this way. but what does science know? >> we actually do know a lot about other animal species that are having sex for pleasure. at the museum of sex we have a wonderful exhibition called the sex lives of animals talking about all the non-reproductive sense that occurs in the animal kingdom. animals engage in every sex act humans do and beyond. they're incredibly creative. >> i want to play -- i know we've got a sound bite from the series, and curiosity, airing shortly. i want to play it for you and talk about each observation a little bit. let's listen in. >> as the 20th century grew on, women rebelled against the male medical establishment and a new kind of sexual freedom erupted. today the female orgasm is an undeniable right. but my question remains, what's

it all for? >> now, it sounds like, sarah, that the series is focusing a bit, or this segment is focusing a bit on the role of pleasure for women in sex, because it seems obvious, i guess, you know, for the male side of the house, but the whole role of women's appreciation of this or experience of this has been changing in the last century. talk about that a little bit and what the series is trying to get at. >> when you look at the history of sex it is often not looked at the female perspective, not looked at this entire history we've created. for instance, until the 1950ss, women were not thought to even have orgasms. you would go to your doctor and they would perform particular medical treatments, and that was where they invented some of the things we know, sex toys that we know, were really medical tools to induce something that was not known to be orgasm.

the facts we're able to have a series that talks about orgasm shows the evolution as a topic and we really hope that progresses. >> one of the things i know curiosity we'll get into, the relationship between female sex and power. there's been a long history through the ages from cleopatra, perhaps, all the way on down, of women who understood the power that their sexuality offered in a male-dominated world. what's your take on how to think about that? >> well i think it's a little dangerous to just think that a woman's power comes from her sexuality. i think it's a very important part of her power and essence, but that you can be powerful in all of these other levels. so i think we look at that history, we learn about the power, and we embrace that sexual power that we can have. >> now, what else is the series trying to accomplish by focusing on the kind of scientific side of why sex is fun? what are you hoping that americans will take away as they -- as they dive more into

this? >> i think the american public has had difficulties talking about sex in a very honest manner and it's really the most amazing subject matter you can hope to delve into. part of why i dedicated my career to it, because you can look at it at the scientific level, a historical, a cultural level. it's really the most universal topic. so the fact that the discovery channel has dedicated the subject matter really shows that this is a topic we can expand on, you know, with great interest for a while. >> now, looking ahead, obviously, the public ability to discuss these issues, immediate ability to deal with it, even different ordinary people's comfort with the topic of conversation has changed radically in the last 30, 40 years. what do you expect as we look out over the next decade or so? are we headed for a, any kind of a backlash or return to a sort of pureedism? lots of division the way sex gets treated as a topic map are

you looking for in the decade ahead? >> i'm really looking for a space we can discuss openly and honestly in about the topic. i think the more information we have, it's a critical thing. it's the disinformation we have about sex, sexuality and the way we've treated it as a society that causes so many problem. so i look forward to continuing the conversation through the museum and through conversations like we're having right now. >> all right. well, thanks, sarah forbes, weren't of the most interesting business cards. >> yes, i do. >> on the planet. tune in this sunday at 8:00 p.m. eastern to check out the whole show on the discovery cha on "h the latest on libya. how's that for a segue, and how it could shake up the region? first, jonathan capehart's four rules for politician. take your guess during the break about who he says is breaking every single one. chloe is 9 months old.

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we wrap up the week with the "daily ramp." jonathan capehart, the floor is yours. >> thank you, matt. i have four rules for politicians. one, never question whether the man or woman running for the privilege of sitting in the oval office which strength from the duty to protect the united states. two, never question that person's love of country. when someone is running to serve and protect the constitution of this nation should about given. three, never presume to speak for members of the armed forces, and, four, never, ever, invoke slave imagery or aliken yourself toa aal figures from that era. sex governor perry is in doing

this. >> you need to ask him. >> are you suggesting -- >> i'm saying, you're a good reporter. go ask him. >> this from a man who loves his country so much that at a tea party rally in 2009, he joked about the possibility of texas seceding from the union. that's more treasonous than anything perry imagines bernanke is doing at the federal reserve. now, perry really wants to be an alternative to republican rival mitt romney, and to take on obama in november, he would do well to say what he's for than falling back on discredit the tea party talking points. meanwhile, congressman alan west is in flag grant virant violati >> i'm here at the modern day harriet tubman to lead people on the underground railroad away from the plantation into a sengs of sensibility. >> oh, no he didn't!

the smarter republican also called the democratic party "a plantation" black elected officials "overseer." stop it. no, really. stop it. the problems facing this country and the world for that matter demand that elected officials present real solutions to common an shis nations and show a skittish world that the united states hasn't gn off the deep end. west and perry aren't helping with that one bit. matt? >> great points, as always, jonath jonathan. tell me, a little time to talk. >> a lot of time, looking at the clock. >> i love to talk to you, jonathan capehart. it rick perry playing to his base when he's sort of throwing these things out and violating capehart's rules or making a mistake and this is first week errors on the national theater, or is it both? what's your take? >> i think it's both. look, the tea party, the tea party is base is fueling the energy behind the republican party. they've spent the last two years

questioning the citizenship and the love of the country that president obama has. two, by, you know, saying that members of of the military would want to serve, would rather serve under a commander in chief who's ban veteran that plays well with the tea party base and the republican base. to you know, say what he said about -- calling fed chairman ben bernanke possibly treasonous, and the, you know, some of the other things he said. just yesterday, evolution and creationism. that all plays well. now, this is why these are all rookie mistakes. this is why politicians who are successful at the local level and at the state level really learn very quickly that when you play on the presidential stage, those lights burn hot, and all of those lessons and rules you think you know and that worked well for you in your previous races either don't work on the national stage, or need to be modified, because i think rick

perry is finding out very quickly that you can't just speak off the cuff. you can't just shoot from the hip. you have to be very careful about what you say, because you're running for the nomination of your party, and you might be the nominee for your party to be president of the united states. it's not just people in that little forum that you're talking to that are listening. the world is listening, because they want to know who you are and what kind of leader you might be. and questioning evolution and creationism doesn't lead a whole lot of people, particularly moderates and independents, to believe that you are all there, or that you should be entrusted with the nuclear codes. >> jonathan, it strikes me, look at jon huntsman in the republican field. he's trying to strike out a position that's the more rational, i'm not going to do that stuff gop primary candidate. he was the only one who didn't -- the only one who said he would vote for the debt ceiling deal at the end. he's been tweeting, i think,

this week, that he actually. >> right. >> believes in evolution, and believes we should listen to scientists when it comes to talking about global warming. those might seem like uncontroversial positions to the public at large, but it may be, you know, toxic to some of the more extreme conservative. >> sure. >> base. can jonathan -- can jon huntsman debt traction or is perry getting smarter playing to the voters he needs between now and the primary? >> depends. huntsman and perry have the reverse situation. huntsman is eminently reasonable, eminently rational, and is probably going to be the thing that prevents him from being the nominee of the republican party. he could win in a general election, because you can stand him next to president obama and they could have a spirited, knock down drag out civil debate as issues facing the country, and the country actually would

be bet are off for it and be well served by it. rick perry on the other hand is saying a whole lot of things that's making conservative hearts beat faster, but i think probably scaring the middle, the middle of the country, the moderates and independents, who really want someone to run against president obama, to at least have a real rational conversation about the issues facing the country. yop think the electorate will have a whole lot of patience with a republican nominee in the general election who's going spend a lot of time questioning the president's patriotism rather than talking about what's needed to put people back to work and get the economy going again. assuming that both those things haven't happened one year from now. >> well, it may be, then, jonathan, 30 seconds before we've got to wrap. maybe the right way to look at jon huntsman campaign a campaign for secretary of state in a gop administration where he doesn't go off the edge sayingality of things that would outrage the world, and yet he's obviously

got fantastic, you know, credentials as ambassador to china, et cetera. >> right. >> a natural for a gop secretary of state. just 15 seconds. >> yes, i agree with you on that, but i would put my finger on if he doesn't make it this go-round. 2016. you heard it here first. >> lots of plans. jonathan capehart and i, for jon huntsman in the future. jonathan, thanks as always for sharing your wisdom and perspective. that does it for us this week. i'm matt miller and look forward to being with you the next two weeks while d.r. is on vacation. up next, "hardball with chris matthews" starts right now. taxes. the home texas, the home of presidents? let's play "hardball." 5:00 p.m. 5:00 p.m. 13450. good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. leading off tonight, second look. it didn't take long for the reaction o