catch willing up to do but i think he has shown some great promise. >> try as i may, governor, i ain't going to wait that long, adios, -fo. and he has prayer meetings. before we laugh too hard and at too far at george bush, remember he put us in two wars and tank et the economy from surplus to deficit. last time we laughed at a texan, we ended up crying. thanks for watching. i'm al sharpton. ha "hardball" starts right now. texas. the home of presidents? let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews down in washington. leading off tonight, second look. it didn't take long for the reaction of rick perry to include doubts. politico reports congressional republicans are getting skittish

over his rhetoric from suggesting the federal reserve chairman is treasonous, to questioning even the president's patriotism. their message to perry, what plays in texas may not play in peoria. plus, check out this tweet that went out yesterday. "to be clear i believe in evolution, and trust scientists on global warming. call me crazy." nothing remarkable about that except it came from a republican presidential candidate, jon huntsman. how far right has the gop gone when it's crazy for a republican presidential candidate to admit he believes in evolution? any difference, by the way, these day, between the republican party and the tea party? also, still pining for hillary? some democrats, though know elected official openly, are having second thoughts about voting for barack obama. to that, a former hillary supporter writes in this sunday's "new york times" magazine. cool it. things would be no different if hillary were president. that's open to debate. we're going to get into that tonight. would hillary have done it better? and the day wouldn't be complete

without an interesting oddity out of the head of michele bachmann, would it? come on. now she's suggesting we all fear a rise of the soviet union. she's worried about the soviet union. even though it died 20 years ago. anyway, let me finish tonight with the president. president obama. this is my idea. big, do something big. we start with some gop doubts about rick perry. michael steele, former chair of the republican national committee. and he'll always be our republican national committee chair. now he's also the msnbc analyst and ron reagan, political commentator. some thoughts from governor perry. getting to know this guy. i'm getting to know him. here's governor perry going after president obama on jobs today in south carolina. he is hitting the circuit. let's listen. >> the real issue is that the president's out there and he was on a jobs tour. now, i mean, this is the president of the united states

that has killed more jobs in america than i think any president in the history, certainly in my lifetime. i think the only job he cares about is the one he's got. >> well, of course, the president came into office in the middle of a recession. when the country was bleeding job, hemorrhaging jobs. tracking month to month job growth. from january until last month. the big losses. joblessness slowed down. look at that chart. hold on that chart. obama is basically gaining jobs since half way through 2009. the hemorrhaging of jobs was, of course, occurring as he walked into office. michael steele is it fair to say this president's caused our economic problems when he walked into a hemorrhaging and it took him six months to close up the hemorrhage, begin creating jobs and he's blamed for what bush did? >> absolutely. >> is that fair?

>> because it's politics. it's on his watch. >> and you call it -- it's b.s. >> call it b.s., republican would call it something different and democrats call it different if the shoe on the other point. bottom line, rick perry is talking to his audience. not talking to you. >> ha! michael, you've learned -- learn how to do this. i show the statistics -- >> i'm going to disagree with your statistics. facts are facts. he's not talking to the facts, how people feel. unemployment, 9.2% is not reflected in the wonderful blue lines you're showing there. the reality, if you've been unemployed since obama became president, if you've, became unemployed seven months into his term, this is something you're feeling right thousand. you don't think about what happened before bush or during bush. you're thinking right now that's what he's speaking to. >> the party of lincoln, ron, not only the party of fact, the party of guilty. how do you feel?

>> exactly right. >> do you feel guilty, you can ignore the numbers. michael brilliantly admitted, facts don't matter. >> i didn't say that. >> you said they don't matter -- >> what i'm saying is, he's speaking to his base. i'm not ignoring the fact. you can talk about the facts of the context of what people are feeling right now. >> great. for his -- a new factor now. ignore the facts. let's go on. >> all right. >> your thoughts, ron. it's interesting, look at the numbers. we have a terrible economy. i know that everybody watching knows that. look at hemorrhaging. this president came in facing this. the "titanic" was sinking. he stopped it. sealed up the cracks. half way through, first year in office, was creating jobs. creating net jobs. your thoughts, ron? >> well, indeed, michael is absolutely right. the audience for rick perry doesn't care about facts. they do just care about how they feel at the moment. and they feel angry, and they're focused that feeling on president obama. who cares about the facts.

who cares if the guy who preceded him lost all the jobs. facts don't matter in the republican party anymore. >> look at rick perry, another favorite topic. health care. let's watch and assess it. >> we know what it's going to do to the quality of health care. we know what it's going to do to the cost of health care. if i'm so fortunate to be elected to president of the united states on day one, when i walk into the oval office, there will be an executive order on that desk that eliminates as much of obamacare as i can have done with an executive order. >> well, in you have it. he's wearing the brown suit. i guess that's what reagan did. he liked brown suits. you know that, ron. your dad preferred brown suits. this guy acts like to act like reagan, wear a brown suit. i'm kidding. >> i know you are. >> let's talk about this health care thing.

first of all, created by statute. he can't really get read of it. go ahead. >> there's aspects of it. sure, aspects of regulatory side of it and maybe other aspects of it he can slow down the process, but you're right. it's largely a statutory issue. just like what the president is talking about immigration. the president came out today talking about he's going to, by executive order, make changes in immigration policy and law. so two the extent that the executive pen allows him to did that he will. same is true rp to health care. >> he can't -- >> speaking to his base. >> do you think he can win this fight for the nomination of your party by trashing obama and ignoring his opponents? >> yes. i think so. right now, very smart move. he's had a very good week. engaged the president. the president engaged back. and at the end of it, he came out ahead. >> and machine gun attack. ballistic references, but i really shouldn't. his relentless assault on the president seems to be what they

want, ron, on the other side. they seem to want a pugilism, punch, punch, punch, punch, punch, because they feel romney won't do it, huntsman won't and the other candidates don't matter. i guess michele bachmann does, michele bachmann the congresswoman. this guy seems to have the clout to do it. >> michael identified the loathing that perry of audience has for president obama. yes, they do want people to be tearing into him all the time. unfortunately, the way perry does that sort of thing, like his comment about ben bernanke being treasonous for exercising monetary policy. the way he does it is going to turn a lot of people off. that stuff may fly in texas like wearing cowboy boots with your suit or something like that, out in the rest of the country, not so much. not so much, really. >> ron, you don't wear your cowboy boots with your suits, man? >> i aware my cowboy boots when i go riding a horse. those are what those are meant more. >> wear the boots inside the pants or outside?

that's the question. a former adviser to presidents ronald reagan and george herbert walker bush was asked about fed chairman bernanke on cnn this morning. let's listen. let's watch. >> rick perry's an idiot, and i don't think anybody would disagree with that. >> well, i think michael might -- >> okay. i guess so. >> i think he meant -- i hope he meant, well, he may have meant generally. idiot, fed chairman treasonous saying you've been treated ugly if it gets down to texas when he disagrees with monetary. can't we disagree on something without calling the guy a traitor any in more? monetary policy? >> or calling him an idiot i agree. i said last night. no more name-calling. >> washington misses the point, because rick perry was no more talking to you and this gentleman or anyone else than the man on the moon. specifically talking to his audience. he's in at battle for the republican conservative primary

base, talking to them. the reality of it, we're talking about this now in august of -- >> it's okay to call another guy a traitor if it is during election. >> it's -- >> he did! >> it says -- >> treasonous. >> it's not the same. >> it's not the same? >> now it's not the same thing. next year -- >> ha! call a guy -- a different story? i'm scratching my head, literally. i don't get it. >> tantalizing. >> it doesn't matter right now. >> a politico report some congressional republicans right now are worried about this guy. they think the cowboy talk ought to be cut now. in fact, representatives from heavily suburban areas especially fear having to share a ballot with this guy given his more controversial -- peter king, no wallflower, from long island, new york. you can't be calling bernanke a traitor and you can't be questioning whether or not barack obama loves america. if he continues this, he'll have a tough time. your thoughts, michael.

>> i go back to my original point. he could care less what this congressman thinks because he wasn't talking to him. the folks in washington think it's all about them. and it's not. >> a congressman from new york. >> it's not same as being you know from texas or south carolina or -- >> where's the republican party located now? >> all over america, baby. ought over america. >> and not a -- it can't -- >> a bust, you know? >> michael, it can't be about the 10% of americans that actually agree with perry. that's nonsense if you're talking about a general election. he'll never win. >> look, ron -- i. know he's in the primaries. >> i would agree with you. >> he's running for president. right? or is he just running for the nomination? >> let's talk about -- coming on -- >> no -- >> for you this is coming on. >> when? >> very soon. in fact, the next segment. >> have fun with him. >> let me ask you the same question. if he's watching. i'm sure he's in your fan club and watching. >> yeah, right.

>> let me ask you about this. i want to get the lingo right. you say want to take back our country, it means take the government back from the other party. >> yes. >> when you say servicemen, men and women, should be proud to serve the commander in chief. not going after hi personally? what's he say when rick perry says i want our service people to be proud of the commander in chief they take orders from. what does that mean? there's something wrong with barack obama? you can't be proud of this guy who's doubled the number of troops in afghanistan, kept the fight going in iraq according to basically the bush strategy. caught bin laden. i think he's had a pretty clean life personally. a good family man. it couldn't be a moral problem. what do they mean, there's a problem with being respectful of the commander in chief? what do you think -- could it be racial? >> i don't any it's racial. i think it probably has to do with the lack of clarity of foreign policy direction in the middle east. >> doesn't have to do with respect? >> again, i agree with you on this one.

probably ron as well that that one to me, was a little outside of the main because it didn't really make sense. the base i don't think largely believed that the president has not done his utmost on behalf of our men and women in uniform. >> a birther stink to it, ron. >> really? >> something ill digit about this president. he's not worthy to serve. first of all, you serve your country, not commander in chief. in 1944 voted for dewey against roosevelt and just as loyal as anybody. a lot of republicans who fought in world war ii. i mean, it ain't -- >> use the phrase -- chris when republicans use the phrase "our country" in this context, they're implying the guy that sits in the white house it isn't his country, too. he's somehow alien. that's the dog whistle there. >> you think that's true? we checked it out, ron, we're going to tack our country back, too. >> and he -- >> that's something -- he's not using it that way. >> oh, no. well, do we know that for a fact, ron? >> yes, i do. >> so --

>> make a point. >> you know it, too. you know it very well what these dog whistles mean. you know very well what the dog whistles mean. you know, michael. you know when rush limbaugh comes on and starts talking about obama -- oreos and it's obameo. you know what that means. rick perry the audience. >> you know what? i agree with him, but you're not going to agree. anyway, thank you, michael. have a nice weekend, ron. coming up, why would he be considered crazy for a presidential candidate? like former ambassador to china, believe in evolution? introducing the schwab mobile app.

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welcome back to "hardball." tonight, "hardball" debut, reince priebus, new head of the republican party that's taken a

hard turn to the right, we think. welcome, mr. chairman. >> hey, thank you. >> let me ask you about this comment made by former utah governor john jon huntsman. to be clear, i believe in evolution and trust scientists on global warming. cal me crazy. is he the odd man out on those issues in your party now? >> chris, you know, i don't know. i'm not doing a poll of all the candidates of that eschews. you know, this is what's going to happen. a rigorous debate. you've pointed out many time, a lot of different folks in the field. i happen to believe, chris, that having a lot of candidates in the field, having a big primary, is good for our party. it gets a lot of people out there. it gets a lot of earned media, a lot of tv time, a lot of print media and all the horsepower, i think, is on our side of the aisle right now. >> aren't you worried, though, in a world where we have to compete with science, in science

and technology with chinese and indian young geniuses and some move here and some still in their countries around the world, we're competing in a world of science and technology to be a country that might be led by someone who doesn't believe in evolution? who doesn't believe in climate change? who doesn't believe in the scientific community of his own country, the national academy of science, for example, on climate change. wouldn't that be scary to have somebody so anti-intellectual as president? >> come on. >> wouldn't it be? answer the question. it's your party? >> here's what i think. i don't think the election will be decided on evolution. decided on a fundamental question the american people will ask themselves and they're going to ask themselves whether or not they're better off today than three or four years ago. >> sure. >> and answer -- >> that's the -- if that's the answer you want. >> it's the -- >> if it's just about conditions. i'm asking about the philosophy of who leads our country. this is important. isn't it? talking about the philosophy of our president. isn't it fair to ask about, called him a socialist. in it fair to ask ar perry, bachmann and the rest of them?

isn't that fair? >> i don't any it's unfair. but i can't sit here and tell you what the philosophy is of all 12 candidates and sit here and get into a give and take on each and every one of the candidates. >> if it's obama, you call him a socialist. >> i can tell you -- wait a minute. i mean, people are going to -- i told what you they're going to ask themselves. whether or not this president's followed through on his promises and what this president told the american people is that he would cut the deficit in half by the end of his first term and what did he do? introduced the biggest structure debt in america. you and i can disagree on a lot of things. what we probably agree on, he's had a hard time exhibiting a little leadership. we may differ on what the answer may be, but we both can agree this president has a real hard time leading when our country and the people in this country are starving for real authentic people to lead the greatest country on the face of the earth in times that are very difficult.

this president is having a real hard time with that. >> do you have a hard time with the fact your party left this country in wreckage with a hemorrhaging unemployment rate and this president walked in the door, got into bed when it was on fire. you're right. you don't point that out. do you? you think you left the bed all made for him and everything was great when he walked in the door. >> no. >> a financial community going crazy. don't say that to me. tell me he walked in the door to hell. just tell me that first. >> hang on, chris. i don't think there's any party or any person blameless in any of this. >> he walk into a good situation, that you left him with? you're blaming him for everything when you say bush wasn't responsible. >> this president has a hard time following through on promises. he said the stimulus would create unemployment at less than 8%. unemployment has been on

sustained range we haven't seen in over 30 years, chris. >> i know. >> we flushed a trillion dollars down the toilet and americans are hurting. he said he's cut the deficit in half. biggest in the world. said he'd tackled the dead. the policies of barack obama, not before him, on barack obama's policies he put on a trajectory to put us in a debt bigger than every president before him combined. >> yes. the trouble is the president in before him doubled the national debt, never put out a single spending bill in eight years. isn't that a problem for your record? >> listen, the president's going to be judged on his record. >> okay. >> and his record right now is a catastrophe in regard to this. we have a president whistling past the graveyard and he's on martha's vineyard. >> you have scored all of your points and made them. let me ask you a question. >> i'm not trying to score points. >> you have scored them and got them on the record now. let me ask you a serious

question. what's the difference now between the republican party and the tea party? >> well, i think there's -- obviously we're an organized, structured party, and the tea party is not. it's a group of people who are conservative, independent. people who are disengaged, but now engaged. i will say this. it's important to note. >> what's the difference in philosophy? >> i don't know all the differences because there's 100 different tea party groups. let me tell you something, where there are similarities, we need to get our spending under control, our debt under control, we need to respect the constitution. all things that are near and dear to the republican party's heart. i'll also tell you that i don't believe the republican party is in competition with the conservative movement. we're not competing. you know, they're their own organization, or their own entity and i'm grateful for it, because i think it's moved america in the right direction. >> the difference between the republican party and the tea party? one difference? >> we're a structured organization with a

registered -- >> on policies? >> what do you mean on policy? >> is there a difference in policy between the tea party people, and new studies now that tea party people tend to be there should be more religion in politics, basically a bad attitude towards race, black people, and immigrants. the tea party -- >> the republican -- chris, that's the beauty of the tea party. you can't define what -- what the tea party is, who it is, what their beliefs are because they're not an organized entity. one tea party in rockford, illinois could have a different view than a tea party in wisconsin. the similarities are that we want to get our country back on track economically. we want to recognize that the government's making promises that it just can't keep and we need to get serious about our debt and the deficit in the country or we'll surrender sovereignty towards bond holders. important issues. >> let me ask your party, i agree with a lot of republicans.

grew up in a republican family. when i was a kid, i was a republican. i completely understand. >> what happened to you, chris? what happened, buddy? >> well, i studied the issues. smaller government, less taxes. they're popular ideas. aye understand the appeal of those. for a long time donald trump was the leader in the polls among republicans simply because he challenged the president's legitimacy as an american. there is an appeal until your party for birther stuff. it's gone on and on. the president had to go out and show papers to shut it down. what is it in your party that was so focused has you made donald trump your front-runner because all he did was raise the birther issue? what happened there? you're an expert on politics. >> first of all i didn't make donald trump the front-runner. >> it was in the polls. >> hang on a second, chris. i nerve every one time questioned this issue. in fact i threw it away. i'm not on record with that. our party's not on record with that. but the fact of the matter is, what americans are looking for in this country and the reason

why people like donald trump and rick perry and other, mitt romney and the rest of our field, michele bachmann and sarah palin are, resonate with the american people is that americans in this country are starving for authentic real leadership. people with guts and a spine, and this president hasn't been able to exhibit any of those things. at all. >> answer my question. you believe that barack obama is a loyal, patriotic american? >> of course. >> okay. thank you, reince priebus. chairman of the republican party. up next, michele bachmann was once worried about anti-americanism in congress. now she's worried about the rise of the soviet union. yes, the soviet union. we'll talk about that when we come back in the "sideshow." you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. announcer ] anan anthis...is the netwo.

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anyway, back to "hardball." now for the "sideshow." first up, it's on. that's what jon stewart had to stay to standard & poor's last night on the "daily show." let's listen. >> you mess with us we mess with you. you're meat. i mean we launch add probe. you may be subject to several depositions by government officials. plus interviews by investigators that in some cases could lead to fines. obviously, it's negotiation in many respects. the point is, there's a strong chance your name will end up in a scathing editorial on page a-17 in the "new york times." sorry, s&p, but revenge is a dish served slow with a great deal of political people. >> it's clear who he thinks has the upper hand. another baffling history flub from a gop candidate. can you believe it? michele bachmann. this one coming as the foreign policies of bachmann and other points start playing a role in the campaign trail. speaking on a christian radio program yesterday bachmann had this to say on what the country

has to fear in the world right now. >> what people recognize is that there's a fear that the united states is in an unstoppable decline. they see the rise of china, the rise of india. the rise of the soviet union and -- and our loss militarily going forward. >> whoa. anyway, when was the last time somebody expressed fear about the rise of the soviet union? two decades when it ceased to exist. this occurred during bachmann's stint working for the irs. she now says her stint working at the irs was a plan to "learn how they work to defeat them from the inside." anyway, maybe she was too busy with her secret plan to take note of the end of the cold war. and -- i'm glad it is over. up next, some democrats argue that hillary clinton, some democrats, think she would be a stronger president. interesting speculation, but would things really be much different if hillary clinton were president today? we'll see because we're going it argue about it. you're watching "hardball" -- this is a hot one coming up --

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here's what's happening. growing fears over recession as stocks tumble again today and the dow fell below the psychologically important 11,000 mark. most economist remain optimisting but today's closing sealed a fourth straight week of wall street losses. three men locked up for killing three cub scouts in early 90s after dna called their conviction in question. the memphis three entered deal after 18 years behind bars. in norway, a memorial service after the youth camp massacre. the man who confessed to killings was ordered to stay in isolation for another month for fear he could contact

accomplices. the indiana state fair collapse filed charges for two went. one killed and one injured. casey anthony's white pontiac evidence of her trial is no more. her father dropped it at junkyard. now back it "hardball." the prime driver of economic growth and jobs is going to be our people and the private sector and our businesses. but you know what? government can help. government can make a difference.

>> welcome back. that was lines like that, lukewarm pitch from the president. government can help. some of his traditional supporters calling for him to step it up. bloomberg used -- he used obama must get bold. tell republicans it's on, and there's a low buzz now from people wondering how a president hillary clinton would have fared. this sunday, an article coming. the headlines, what would hillary have done? ironically, rebecca tracer criticizes this talk. she writes, "we forget sometimes our government was designed to limit the powers of the president. there simply was never going to be a liberal messiah whose powers could transcend the limits set by democracy packed with regressive objectives." anyway, do democrats have reason to feel remorse? political analyst and "washington post" columnist and pat buchanan and eugene robinson. gene, start with you. a "hardball" question. certainly i hear the buzz. ed blogosphere. it's interesting to me, despite terrible economic times and obviously the president's low poll numbers on economic performance, i've yet to hear one elected official in

government, who is a democrat, or in a party position, anywhere, come out and say, we would have been bet are off with hillary. >> i haven't heard that. but you are going to hear that. keep in mind, people fundamentally still like barack obama even those disappointed for whatever reason, and what we forget, i think, is how reviled hillary clinton was by conservatives. she was demonized, and you could -- if you really want to play the scenario, you would have seen at least the same amount of vitriol and obstructionism and, you know, they wouldn't have made it easy for hillary clinton anymore than they did for barack obama. >> what do you think of that, pat, looking across the aisle? >> i think hillary would not have gotten the sendoff. i was down when barack obama was nominated pap tremendous good mood in the country. african-americans were elated as they'd never have been. she wouldn't have gotten that. on the other hand, could have

held what barack obama is losing badly. young white working class -- >> a 911? >> i don't know her policies would have done better than barack obama? >> why help loyalty then? >> loyalty of whom? >> white working people. >> i think it's perceived that barack obama -- first, barack obama's got -- he won 24-1 oop i told you, john mccain gets the same vote at david duke in louisiana. she wouldn't have got that. african-americans would have said we lost that golden opportunity. >> would she have beaten mccain? probably would have hard to tell any of these things. a democratic year. the candidate. >> did not run a good -- >> who knows. done better with the white working class, again, white folks and gotten the support of african-americans but not the enthusiasm, energy and fire. >> let's -- the piece we're

looking at running in the "new york times." an excerpt about the economy. clinton might have tended to jobs and the economy more quickly than obama did. it's possible there would have been less of a 2010 bloodbath. she might have bitten off the ear of a tea partier now and then but there might not have been a tea party. the clintons did not get health care through. the clintons did. the advantage, she wouldn't have tried it again. >> she would not have tried it again. he got it through. and you know, for -- republicans, i know, don't like it, but he got it through and -- >> it's an al ba tras around his neck. >> politically, got something through. >> politically got through. i will say this. i think hillary would have had us in a confrontation with iran. in the middle east, much closer to israel, much tougher. >> yeah. >> and i think -- >> yes, but let me ask you about the economics.

>> when we -- have another war? >> now -- i think you're -- let's talk about the things that bother liberals, progressives. senate rules that seem anti-progressive. you need 60 votes. it's very hard to get 60 votes for anything. you got to get 217 1/2 and 216 in the senate. if you want something done positively for government it's very hard to get it through unless you break the rules. would hillary have broken the rules? >> i will say this. her personal skills with the senators when she went up will in 2000, 2001. the conservative said here she comes, the queen. she worked that. made friends with those people. they liked her. i don't know if that translates into votes but i think in terms of leadership and personal skills -- >> would she have changed, somehow gotten harry reid to say, to hell with the 60 votes we're jamming it through. >> i don't think she would have changed the rules and i don't think she would have gotten more cooperation from mr. mcconnell

than barack obama did. >> i think her personal skills -- >> mcconnell determined to get rid of obama. >> by did they send joe biden up there? biden works the senate. and obama doesn't. >> i agree. better personal skills. if clinton had been elected, again, speculating, it been elected president, especially after tenure compared with an unrealized and unblemished obama administration, president hillary clinton would have been compete wig a dream. -- competing with a dream. if obama had lost, hillary won, saying, gee if he only had obama. >> exactly. exactly. we blew this opportunity for hope and change in history, and -- >> and there's not all that much difference. that's not like reagan and rockefeller or something like that. they're not that far apart. obama and hillary. >> here's a question. why -- >> they work so well together. >> the heart of progressives who

watch this program. it seems to me that the clintons were able to do things like ball, the budget over eight year. worked with -- newt gingrich and did it. voted for welfare reform. got rid of welfare as a right, basically. they did nafta, which drives labor crazy. they were forgiven on every point, gene. this president gets health care through. the greatest social evolvement since the '60s, and he gets nothing but grief. >> well, you know, were the clintons entirely forgiven? i'm not sure they were entirely forgiven. well, you know -- but imagine a hillary clinton administration, imagine bill clinton in the white house. imagine bill clinton in the white house. >> that's good. >> but imagine billion clinton in the white house. there would have been -- it's an ire on the right and -- >> back to you. the pitchfork crowd. working class whites. a lot of pro-choice. i know your crowd and like them

personally. here's the question. would they be forgiving hillary clinton, unemployment rate and -- >> no. i think barack obama, he did climb into a burning bed. i think it would have continued along that way. here's why clinton worked nafta. >> i know the joke's on you. the drunk guy lying in bed and there's a fire. he says it's not my fault i got in the bed when it was already on fire. that's an old joke. >> welfare reform republicans like. nafta, the republican establishment loved nafta. these republicans do not like obamacare. so obama went and put through something the republican and tea party cannot stand, whereas clinton was working with them. she -- she was very good at that. she did not -- i mean, what's -- let's not make this rumpy.

let's not make this too rosey. did not rub everyone the right way. everyone loved hillary clinton. >> hey -- thank you. >> okay. >> moving forward. moving one down to oregon, i like to say. eugene robinson. great discussion. pat buchanan. libya leader moammar gadhafi may be -- talking about weasel words. may be preparing to flee the country. okay. he could be gone in a matter of days. that could be news. we'll find out in a couple of days. this is "hardball," only on msnbc. every time a local business opens its doors or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business -- it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities, so we're helping them with advice from local business experts and extending $18 billion in credit last year. that's how we're helping set opportunity in motion.

president obama is on his first full day of vacation. he is being criticize sides for his trip. back in '83, ronald reagan's third year in office, 9.5. reagan set off on a 25-day vacation to his ranch in california. 25 days. not 9 that this president is getting. presidents have always been taking vacations and there's been complaining about it.

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miserable. >> the u.s. government has been secretly working behind the scenes for months to get ghadafi out of there. >> why don't we go to sandals there and live there quietly? why would he leave? >> try to get him out of there. rebels are circling tripoli. >> why do we treat these guys like hitler, why don't we cut a deal with them? for him to go somewhere else. exactly right. >> would we go along with that? >> at this point to ensure an end to the conflict, people with an end to the conflict. >> let's go to al qaeda, we shouldn't worry so much about a big, incredible, perfect storm like 9/11 and more about something more one guy or person, how do you see that in terms of al qaeda? >> right now their capability is diminished in pakistan with bin laden's death, but just because

he's dead, the other affiliates in yemen and somalia, there's still a real risk to the united states. >> where are there, if we try to take over afghanistan, is that reasonable or could al qaeda operate anywhere? >> they already are. yemen is now the leading al qaeda affiliate, but even hear in the u.s., because of internet, you're having self radicalized lone wolves. there's no network, there's no trail, they are the individuals. >> do they have the -- is the president right? i'm asking you a tough question, is the president right, they don't have a capability for the big operation like 9/11. >> they can pick up an automatic rifle, shoot up a shopping center, airport, the al qaeda in yemen has put out a recipe book for how to make these exploess and i.e.d.s, so it's one of these things you can have

small-scale attacks. >> aren't you amazed every time i go to a movie or ball game, average ball game over 30,000 people at it. >> right. >> baseball. if you go to the movie, packed houses friday and saturday nights. isn't hard to find americans where we're really vulnerable. >> think of it as throwing pebbles into the cogs of the american economy. these would not be mass causality attacks. >> as tragic as that is, the impact on the economy is bigger, air traffic stops. >> have you heard about people are now thinking these countries, suicide bombers, are putting bombs inside their bodies? >> that's right. inside their bodies. the problem with that is the body absorbs a lot of that explosion, so it sounds pretty spooky, it's not very effective. >> if they get a seat next to a window and he gets on that plane, because the tsa guys don't pick up on it, could he

blow the plane apart? >> could be. just can't get much explosive inside the body, chris. >> let's talk about this thing here, chemical weapon apparently al qaeda is trying to get it. in the book, tell us about it. >> we report the al qaeda affiliate in yemen is trying to make one of the most lethal poisons. what they try to do is wrap it around explosives and detonate it in an enclosed place, again, it wouldn't kill that many people, but it would terrorize the country, perhaps shutting down mass transportation. >> you can say we'll hit one movie theater and next 100. >> that's right, so the pr propaganda value would be huge. >> how hard is it to make? >> it's easy if you have the right laboratory conditions. the problem with yemen, very primitive. >> got to read this book. "counter strike" there it is on

the screen, the untold story of america's secret campaign against al qaeda. when we return, let me finish why it's time for president obama to go big, after labor day, go big time. you're watching "hardball" on msnbc. [ grandma ] why do relationships matter? [ grandpa ] relationships are the basis of everything. [ grandma ] relationships are life... if you don't have that thing that fills your heart and your soul, you're missing that part of your life that just fulfills you. ♪ [ male announcer ] for us at humana, relationships matter too. the better we know you, the better we can help you choose the right medicare plan. that's why humana agents sit down with you

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let me finish tonight with a simple recommendation for the president, keep it simple and make it big. the american people need a leader right now, they need to know what the leader wants them

to do, what can they do they want to know, to get this country moving again. what should we do, push the congress to spend more money on a job's program, raise the heat on those who vote against it or refuse to let it come to a vote, should we demand congress pass such a program? well, he's talking about other things, the president, payroll tax cuts, unemployment benefits, trade deals with south korea, columbia, and panama, something about patent reform. look, he needs something bigger that will force the country to pay attention and take sides, something intriguing, compelling, all right, exciting. maybe a jobs program that includes but isn't limited to public works, a program that would put one million people to work, a major fix of our jobs outlook and a use of the federal government to put our economic situation rocketing back to normal. it has to be something big enough for all to see, perhaps every