e-mails. rob what do you got? >> a lot of libya stuff. woke up, decided to watch to see if gadhafi got his butt kicked out of power. >> it appears so. not sure that's a tactical description. we'll check. what else? >> willie, refreshed after your wedding this weekend to kim kardashian. >> that was this weekend. was it good? married this weeke. "morning joe" starts right now. >> what they won't say now is the revenge, they are filled with hatred, supported by tribal conflict. all they want is to destroy this city. >> for them, tripoli has fallen and they are in control. this is what they have been telling us. for years we weren't able to

speak. for years we were prevented from saying what we believe for freedom, nisourany source of fr. the government has now fallen and they are in control. >> i don't really have it. we are now free. >> what we are hearing from people here over and over is that this is a historic day. today we live in freedom. it is something we are hearing over and over again. they are saying god is great. they are thankful this day has come. now a new beginning for libya. >> west michig >> welcome to "morning joe." with us, mike barnicle, chairman of the republican national committee, mr. michael steele,

richard haass and retired army colonel, jack jacobs, in washington, andrea mitchell and host of "andrea mitchell reports." good morning, all. >> good morning. >> andrea, i want to get to you. rebel fighters in tripoli are taking to the streets as the 32 year regime of moammar gadhafi is ending. fighting has broken out at the compound of the libyan leader. government tanks opened fire as emerging from inside the complex. gadhafi's youngest son is leading forces into tripoli. the top diplomat in london said they control 95% of the capital city. the final assault was part of a coordinated plan.

the rebels living inside tripoli. nato reports combat air patrols over libya will continue until all pro-gadhafi forces surrender. little resistance from the regime. libyas information minister struck a defiant tone about the future of this battle. meanwhile, the international criminal says gadhafi wants to be the heir. a source close to gadhafi's inner circle as he tried to escape deskized as a woman. libya's prime minister has fled the country.

in south africa, earlier report that is two planes landed in tripoli to help gadhafi exit the country. his country is not facilitating a gadhafi departure. the libyan leader will not seek asylum there. back here in the united states, president obama is monitoring the situation from his vacation on martha's vineyard where he was briefed by john brennan. the president later released a statement that read in part, tripoli is slipping from the glass. the surist way is simple. recognize their rule has come to an end. he needs to relinquish power once and for all. this fight has been going on for six months. the end came quite quickly. >> because of the coordinated response that involved nato. people in libya, in tripoli working on the ground with the

opposition as well as the rebel leaders. key is what happens next. as you know, the challenges are a mess. this is creating a new government, a new country where there's only been one unifying force, that is gadhafi and his people. now, the biggest challenge is create a form of government. it's what jeff has been working on for days and days in the most recent trip to benghazi. that is what they are hoping. they have insurances from the national group, the council that they are now including tribes that have not been previously involved. they are reaching out. they understand the need for civilian authorities, policing and the creation of a duly elected form of government. there's a long way from here to there, though. >> as andrea points out, it doesn't matter if it's days, weeks, hours gadhafi's run is

over. what comes in his place? these rebel groups didn't have a lot in common until they decided to get together to fight against gadhafi. now, can they form a government inside libya? >> the one thing they had in common and success is their biggest problem. it's a good problem. it's the end of the beginning. we are probably not looking at days and weeks, but years of transition. you want to create order, avoid looting. avoid a breakdown like we saw in iraq in the aftermath of saddam. you have to match up every component of a modern society. forget about elections. we are talking policing and basic services. you are talking about how to get millions of people back to work, feeling safe in their home, safe in the street. how do you avoid a breakdown

along tribal lines, criminal gangs, looting and so forth? i think they are going to need help. you have to be a real optimist to think this group can do it. i think you are looking at international help, whether it's nato, e.u., an arab country, that's going to have to work with them to stand-up their country. >> what richard is telling us, to create this civil society or semicivil society, how do you arm an entire nation? >> it's going to be difficult. it's going to take a long, long time to put together the mechanism of government and get weapons out of the hands of people who want to hold on to them. there are a lot of weapons out there. a lot of the people with weapons don't like other people with weapons. some of them don't like the people who are going to take over in tripoli. there's going to be a lot of retribution. a lot of weapons are in the

hands of people who will not ever give them back. i think the place is in for a long haul. some of that stuff, antiaircraft missiles are probably in the hands of bad guys as we speak. it's going to cause problems in libya and elsewhere. >> michael steele, there was a lot of talk when this started the way it was being prosecuted. should the united states be there. what do you think about that now? >> i think it's still a good question. these gentlemen laid out the road ahead of us. the reality, politically for this administration and future administrations is what is the appropriate relationship of the united states to the development of society in libya, dealing with the military weapons issues that are on the ground. i get the sense we kind of rush these things. no one thinks about what comes next. the spring could be the winter of discontent.

it's not something that gets resolved overnight or find a ready solution to. the tribalism alone gets you to another place. politically, the u.s. is dealing with it and how they contain the hornets is going to be interesting. >> we have a point from the ground now. the research fellow from a think tank in washington. he's been in benghazi for five months. thank you for calling in. what are you seeing on the ground? >> caller: people here are rejoicing after the apparent fall of gadhafi. there was a sense of relaxation and relief. five or six month campaign. to some people here, some frustration building in society. now the country has been relieved.

they want to move forward and transition into a democratic government. the rebel political council, the transitional council, they will not run for office once gadhafi falls. the people that have been running the country the last few months will be in contact with diplomats and nato and allow new leaders to come. that's going to be a problem. this country has not had a democracy. in 1972, there was a law about political parties. this is going to be one of the big problems moving forward. another problem is something richard alluded to, tribal restitution. gadhafi's regime was based on support.

it was a small tribe and a very large tribe. people are staired rebels are going to take retribution. gadhafi has been able to retain the stronghold of his support in the capital of tripoli. these people now, the rebels. >> we have andrea mitchell with us with a question. andrea. >> hey, barack. the question is whether the u.s. has enough influence with this group. we hold the moneybags and we and nato have the weapons. can we persuade them to reach out and reconcile in a way that is not typical of libya? >> caller: andrea, as you know the united states is behind the curve on this. our european allies led the way,

nicolas sarkozy really pushed for nato to commence the bombing campaign. the united states, as a result didn't recognize it until late in the game. didn't bring in high level representation. the problem moving forward is who holds the key to power in this country? from what i'm hearing in the last few weeks, not so much al qaeda movement but more along the lines of muslim brotherhood. they hold a lot of sway, not only politically but militarily. the military units get weapons from the foreigners, transfer the weapons to islamic units and not only that, a major player who supported the financially military was transferring itself weapons. it's going to be a problem

moving forward. >> what is the best guess about where gadhafi is? there's speculation he might have left the country. he might be held up in his compound. what is the latest information about where he might be? >> moammar gadhafi will likely die in this country. he is the son of this land. he loves his country. we have heard rumors he left for algeria. his problem, he always alienated leaders. he's alienated all the arab countries. south africa, he is beloved as a hero. nelson mandela spoke highly of gadhafi.

gadhafi is a hero because of that. because south africa is a democracy, there's no risk there will be a change in power. or in venezuela where hugo chavez rules. if gadhafi leaves the country, south africa is the best country. >> andrea mitchell raised a critical point about the money. we hold the moneybags, andrea pointed out in terms of rebuilding or recreating what's going on in libya today. how much is this going to cost us and do we have the money? >> we have some money. libya has the capacity to make their own money. produce something below 2 billion barrels of oil a day. you'll be gin to see the return of libyan oil, which will

generate money. will this group that fought this civil war on the ground be able to transition from rebels to governors? do they have that capacity? can they take over libya or are they going to need outside help? >> i heard one tripoli resident say last night god bless the united states and nato for helping us. is that reflective about the way people feel about the united states as they watch moammar gadhafi leave power? >> it's very ironic. here in libya, they welcome the american bombs and nato strikes and predator drones to help them overthrow moammar gadhafi. president obama is popular on the streets. it remains to be seen, however, if this popularity for the united states will extend after the military campaign is over

and they no longer need our weapons but only need our economic help. >> live in benghazi this morning, we appreciate your calling. thank you for your insight. colonel jacobs, he's got a point, they like it when we drop our bombs. it may change tomorrow. >> it may have changed already and we don't know it. we are not dealing with these guys in any case. a lot of this was through us, but inner immediatearies. the british and the french have special forces on the ground now who have been training the rebel forces and are going to have to stay there awhile to make sure the place doesn't go to pieces. how much influence are they going to be able to have? i don't know. they may like the united states at the moment. later on, they are likely not to

like the united states, depending on who is going to gain troll. 2 billion barrels of oil. where does that go next? who is going to control that? >> you are looking at pictures from tripoli, the larger crowd shot we saw seconds ago. kind of reminiscent of baghdad. >> it is. it is. it's very reminiscent of that. the reality for a lot of folks, particularly this generation who have begun to understand what they can do, the power they have. they have watched their neighbors respond. they have watched the world respond to their actions in a positive way. i think, there are two overarching questions, what kind of civil society is created and the oil created. the reality for us right now is we are broke, folks. if the u.s. is going to find

itself in a position it is going to have to write checks. it's going to be a problem for people here at home who don't have fireworks going off and not celebrating a lot because they don't have a job. it's going to be a very delicate balance. >> one quick point about oil, the price of oil is already dropping on markets because the industry assumes that oil will come back online after this long civil war. the other piece is that the oil company, the producing companies and the people in the field, their stocks are rising in futures. the assumption is by the markets the oil is coming back online and the rebel groups have not destroyed the fields on the ground. they have not destroyed the fields. they have preserved that for the future. that is the future of this country, if they are going to get back on their feet.

the oil will come online. we are going to see 2% of the oil throughout the world, the daily oil production, potentially coming back on from libya. >> one thing that is on the minds of policymakers in washington, after the jub lent street scenes end and the baghdad reference we were talking about earlier, they woke up and began killing each other. what's going to happen in libya? >> every hour that goes by after the jubilation is a bad hour. you have to begin as quickly as possible to transition. once they learn the new culture is one of grabbing guns, that's the beginning of the end. that's when it gets really, really bad. the world thooz decide what it's going to do, work with the libyans and begin doing it. if there's a vacuum, if there's a break, it's going to be bad news. >> the way to do that is get a

large number of new government troops where they are people to control the movement, control established check points. it's got to be a military state to control it. if it's under the control of bill bag of doughnuts -- >> he's not a bad guy. >> he's good to me. if it's in control of district group of people that are going to do what they want, if that doesn't happen quickly, you are going to see exactly what you saw in baghdad. >> we'll continue this conversation. much more on the breaking news in libya. we'll talk to richard engel live in tripoli. coming up, ed rendell joins the table plus a look at politico's top stories of the morning. the first atlantic hurricane of the season. >> if you live from florida up to new england, this is the week

to pay attention to the forecast. hurricane irene is going to cause problems. now, the hurricane is almost over the top of puerto rico. the island lost power widespread. the storm pulls away today. we no longer think the dominican republic is going to weaken the storm. it will remain a category one for wednesday. it goes over the warm waters, intensifies, up to 90 miles per hour. to florida thursday and friday. winds up to 100 to 110 miles per hour as it goes near or over the top of florida. it looks to keep its eye on the southeast. too early to tell you who is going to get the worst of it in the land fall. you get the gist from florida to south carolina. now is the time to prepare. the hurricane should be near florida on thursday. then a major rainstorm up through new england. you are watching "morning joe"

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♪ a lot of pictures of david cameron finishing his comments. great britain will soon release frozen libyan assets with gadhafi leaving power. former governor of pennsylvania, ed rendell, good to see you this morning. >> i have a question for you, does president obama watch "morning joe"? >> every day. religiously. >> he has to be distraught this morning. >> why? >> the question goes to michael. nobody says, up colluding michael, who is a good guy, nobody says great victory. not that anyone cares about foreign policy, but great victory for the obama administration. mocked, it will never work. the rebels are disorganized.

we have to put ground troops in, overthrow gadhafi. not one american fighting man or woman got hurt. it worked to a t. it's better than getting rid of gadha gadhafi. >> michael steele? >> great victory. >> all the talking heads, republicans and democrats. it reminds me of the reaction of bill clinton in kosovo when everyone said that would not work. we overthrew a tyrant. score one for the president. you know, i'm not someone who always says the president is doing a great job, but score one for the president. >> richard haass. >> too soon to take out the champaign. yes it's important getting rid of gadhafi. >> everyone mocked him saying it wouldn't work.

>> history is going to debate the wisdom of this intervention. it's going to depend on what happens after. wars don't have chapters, they have narratives. if you have chaos in the street, if you have a radical islamist regime, people are not going to say this is a great idea. things can get worse. i hear what you are saying. people were critical. >> it's a good thing richard wasn't around in boston in 1775. things aren't so bad under the king, it could be worse. these radicals could make a mess of things. >> calm down with the tea thing. >> i understand. i understand what ed is saying here. the administration, again, i happen to believe the administration wasn't as bold as you are projecting. it was not a grand strategy, they stumbled through the

process. there was no way to tell the american people. to say it was a great victory is coloring the past. the reality is the administration stumbled into it, they didn't have a clear direction. they couldn't articulate what the end game should be, what the outcome should be. and i recall them saying it would be 30 days. >> equivalent about the days. >> you are taking it to mount olymp olympus. >> it was two-fold, one, save hundreds of thousands om people from slaughter. two, get rid of one of the world's tyrants. victory. >> you don't have the founding fathers in waiting. >> i guarantee you people in the colonies were saying they run a government? they can't run anything. they are a bunch of stiffs.

>> what about the precedent here. this was well executed. is this the way we should look at the world? should we team with nato to intervene? >> if there's world action. if we have foreign policy at all, it should stand for one thing, protect people from slaughter. to me, that is the devine force of a foreign policy. if we can get a coalition of nations to join with us and protect people from slaughter, yes, i think it's the best thing we can do. >> are we headed in that direction in syria? >> absolutely not. it's why gadhafi's foreign policy. put aside the fact, we don't know if people were about to be slaughtered in libya. there are a lot of questions about it. in syria, this is a country that

was densely populated. we are limited in syria. we are going to do sanctions and we are hoping the internal dynamics get rid of assad. what happened in libya cannot be what the united states is going to do. if there's a crackdown in china, we are not going to get involved there. if there's a crackdown in afr a africa, we didn't get involved there. this is an element of american foreign policy. the big question mark, are we persuaded we can leave things better off than when we started? >> i love the foreign policy bit. where were we in darfor?

i think it's a disgrace. did we choose not to do it because it was a poor african nation? it's a disgrace. >> when you get to sudan and places like that, the united states draws a bright line. the reality is, i appreciate your statement and level of interventionism in terms of going and rescuing the world, but there are parts of the world we choose not to intervene. for far less noble reasons than oil. so, the reality of it is, that's the one thing that combines all of our actions here around the idea of there's something of interest for the u.s. there. the reality is that's where we go. >> hasn't that always been the case? >> it's been the case for every president. the result is, you have hundreds of thousands and millions of people who are killed and slaughtered when the u.s. looks at them because there is no

prevailing interest like oil to intervene. >> why is it, i understand where you are coming from with regard to the question mark, compared to how we get in there. i understand. why is it that i, sitting here as a citizen get the sense that no matter what this guy does, barack obama, no matter what he does, right, no matter what -- >> we don't get libyan oil. we don't get one drop of libyan oil. >> we might not get it, but somebody benefits. everybody is a part of that club. >> clinton went into kosovo, do they have oil? >> so he goes into kosovo, but nobody goes into sudan. what is the common denominator there. >> it was a disgrace. >> i disagree. it's not enough to want to do good in the world. you have to design and implement

an intervention that does good. one conversation we won't have here, it wasn't easy to design and implement an operation to do good. also we had another civil war going on in the country. we didn't want to break apart the south to intervene there. it's tough. it's not getting up in the morning saying how do we save looi lives. put american lives at risk. >> jfk said we do things not because they are easy, but they are difficult. if we shy away from doing what is right because it's difficult, shame on us. >> let's get our boys and girls ready for africa. there are good things to be done there. >> i think we could do similar things in africa. kosovo and northern africa aside, the heart of africa, there are real problems and the united states has been on the

sidelines. millions and millions of africans are killed. there's a famine going on. i don't see relief services going there. the reality is, people in this country, they draw their bright line. this is not about president obama or president bush or whether we like obama or don't like obama. the united states policy has a bright dividing line. >> i agree with you. let's do it and have a special tax to cover it. how about that? >> there you go. still ahead, the editor of the new yorker, david and jillian. the political play book with jon huntsman getting tough. taking shots at governor rick perry. keep it on "morning joe." ♪

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i think there's a serious problem. the minute the republican party becomes the anti-science party, we have a huge problem. we lose a lot of people that would otherwise allow us to win in 2012. when we take a position that we can't embrace that and runs

counter to what 198 climatologists said about what is causing climate change and man's contribution to it, i think we find ourselves on the wrong side of science and in a losing position. i don't know if that's presuccession texas or post succession texas. it sounds like someone who is serious on the issues. it gets to a broder point, the fact we have had so much hope and hype, we have found ourselves at the extreme ends. people are crying out for us to get back to a level of sensibility. >> jon huntsman speaking yesterday morning from washington's politico patrick gavin. good morning. >> good morning. >> who was that masked man coming out swinging against the republican field. is that the new strategy? >> he's got the gloves on.

he calls rick perry, he calls him out on science and romney a flip-flopper. the democratic national committee blasted out his remarks. is sinks up with what the democrats think. he has to do something. his campaign is sputtering. romney, perry, bachmann are inattention. it's working. he's trying to play the sen tryst candidate. it plays well in a general election. in the primaries, where it's all about the most passionate voters, will that strategy win does it exist? he's got to do something. he's got to get voters to pay attention to him. this strategy is a risky one. in an ordinary campaign, i don't

know. >> pay attention. >> i'm going to put that in the next pro moe. thank you. >> michael steele, let me ask you about this. let's talk about the strategy. huntsman said he wouldn't trust any of the other republican candidates on the economy. he talked about michele bachmann. she might bring gas prices to below $2 a gallon. he said you have to live in reality. he called perry unelectable. is this a strategy? >> no. the point is, he clearly -- if he did this coming out of the box, it would have been a different way to start the campaign. the jolted reality of the primaries for a lot of folks. now, it's a hail mary or desperation. it does play more to a general election strategy as opposed to the fact you are going through south carolina and you have tough ground ahead of you.

places like new hampshire, people think because it's the northeast, it's liberal bashing. it's still a republican primary. winner could be anybody. so, i think it's a good move. it's entertaining on one level, but i don't know what traction it gets him with the base. we have to see what the response is over the next couple days from folks. i don't think it endures him to those supporting a bachmann or perry. now i can go with him, i didn't see that. >> let me ask you a question. >> yeah. >> what republican goes to a delegate? >> the same number that go to the democratic one. >> i slightly disagree with michael. i have always thought in a republican field, if someone did what jon huntsman is doing

saying let's get real, evolution exists, global warming exists, you would peel off the moderate republicans. are they a majority? no. can you take them and win in michigan and florida? yes. remember, jon huntsman has the money to get through those early primaries and get to michigan and florida. >> we'll see. we'll see if he can make it that far. patrick, thank you so much. appreciate it. >> thanks. strong editorials in libya. bobby joins us next for the must read op-eds. we'll be right back. announcer ] anan anthis...is the netwo.

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for them, tripoli has fallen. now they are in control. this is what they have been telling us. for years we weren't able to speak. for years we were prevented from saying what we believe. any source of freedom. the government has fallen and they are in control. that was a report yesterday from tripoli. bobby is joining us. good to see you this morning. >> glad to be here. >> we have been talking politics and what happens next. take a look at those pictures. it's worth pausing for a moment. rebels standing in green square. stomping on pictures of him. this is a remarkable moment in history. >> it is a wonderful moment. to give these rebels credit, they have pulled it off.

two months ago, they had no military ability. now, it's flipped a bit. the military side tripled in tripoli. to give them credit, they took town after town after town. there wasn't massive looting or massive revenge. it could change now that they have tripoli. they haven't shown the inclination to do that sort of thing, yet. >> what do we know about the coalition? which group is likely to rise to the top. will they do so peacefully or will we have a civil war on our hands? >> depends on what the people that stayed close to him to the epd will do now. they have people of credibility with international experience. over several months they have

communicated with governments. there are economists, businessmen who are waiting to make things happen. this is different from egypt or tunisia. they have structure. some sort of a political structure. they are now facing a situation. nobody could have anticipated a few months ago. will they step up and deliver statesmanship, diplomacy. they actually have a leadership. the egyptian revolution did not have one. tunisia did not have one. that's the biggest difference and the crucial difference in the months ahead. >> what is your opinion about where gadhafi is now? >> i would say south. there are vast open areas, places to hide. whether he can get through is

another thing. he can't escape by sea, they would throw him straight into jail. the closest land fall close to tripoli says if he goes there, we are going to send him to the hay. his instinct is to head south. >> you'll get to the op-ed. he was on the radio urging supporters to stay in the streets and fight while he's hiding. people died for him. >> i saw it in baghdad when saddam hussein hid in a hole. they hide, they run, they flee, they try to save themselves. >> we have time for one editorial. the guardian, who will influence the libyan situation. the short answer, libyans

themss. there's plenty of common sense, idealism and decency waiting to be tapped in libya. the experience shows how such elements can scamable. libyans need help. egypt and tunisia would have most to lose if libya lost its way. a special responsibility. >> yes. egypt and tunisia have their own problems. it will be done with the same forces that made it successful. they are going to have a big role now in helping the transitional government deliver a peaceful libya. the things libya has going for it, tiny population, lots of oil. that's a palette to paint something with. >> they have to work with libya, not do things to libya.

figure out what is accepted. help them with civil governance. you don't want to send in an occupation force to work with them and train them. we are looking at months or years of a transition. again, the focus ought to be cooperative. >> before we go here -- >> they are not asking for troops or money. they are asking for expertise. the international community is there to provide it whether or not we have an economic crisis on our hands. >> thanks for coming in bobby. a live report from richard engel is next on "morning joe." every time a local business opens its doors or creates another laptop bag

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back to the breaking news in libya in a couple minutes. we are going to squeeze in a couple sports stories. the jets and bangles. plaxico burris making his debut. sanchez fined burris for a 20-yard game. watch this catch.

sanchez picks up the blitz, throws it up for burris. a 26-yard touchdown. one of his three catches in the game. 27-7 over cincinnati. 173 yards, two touchdowns. a little baseball, tigers and indians battling for the a.l. central. detroit upper run. watch how the game ended. indians have runners on second and third. center field. fukudome attacking at third. a double play to end the game. throws a bullet. blocked the play. lays down the tag. tigers end the game on that double play. detroit sweeps the series. yankees and red sox both one. >> big deal. >> curtis granderson, inside-the-park home run. up next, richard engel live from

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gadhafi must stop fighting and show he's given up claim to control libya. as for his future, that should be a decision the chairman and the new libyan authorities. this has not been our revolution but we can be proud we have played our part.

there will be difficult days ahead. no transition is ever smooth or easy. today, the arab spring is a step further away from depression and dictatorship and a step closer to freedom and democracy. the libyan people are closer to a better feature, free from the terror of gadhafi. >> david cameron speaking moments ago at 10 downing street. welcome back to "morning joe." its's 7:00. with us and joining the conversation, editor, new yorker magazine. dave, good to see ya. >> good to see you. >> let's get through the details of what's happening here. rebels are taking to the streets. it appears to be ending in the final moments in the 6-month-old conflict. the compound of the libyan leadership. they opened fire after emerging

from inside the complex. gadhafi's younger son is leading forces into central tripoli. a top diplomat says they are in control of 95% of the capital city. sunday's final assault was part of a plan patched by nato, the rebels and anti-gadhafi forces. fighters surged into the city on sunday with very little resist ten tans from the regime. what are your impressions as you turn on the tv last night and this morning? >> partly joy and partly deja vu. the joy is to see a dictator that's been around since the beatles were together. wreaks all kinds of havoc on his own people.

to see him gone, to see his family gone or let's hope that's the case is wonderful. on the other hand, it's excitement. then there's tomorrow. we have seen it all throughout history and in the middle east. it's a tribal nation. very rightly, this is a small place, 6 million or 7 million people with all sorts of oil. we remember in iraq and egypt where turmoils are going on. we have to hope with a system from abroad the vacuum will be closed and the decent people will fill it. there's no guarantee. >> united states and nato made it possible. >> over 7,000 missions were carried out. we can only hope if there are attacks coming from the gadhafi forces coming into the city, they will be by nato. >> we made it possible. what should be the role of the

united states and nato in facilitating a new government. >> legitimate complaints that president obama did not explain that carefully or forcefully enough in the beginning. complaints we were leading from behind. complaints we were playing a subsidiary role to britain and france in particular. it seems to have worked. there's a long way ahead here. in the united states, france and britain play a role in terms of aid and advising. we have to hope that this is not an iraq-style insurgency. we have to hope there aren't tribal problems that cause it to go awry. it's going to be very difficult. again, it's very exciting to see this. it's thrilling but it doesn't end here. >> richard, as citizens of this

country, we bring our experiences. yet, there is, i think in the back of our minds, a collective notion that, you know, we remember what happened in baghdad. we remember what happened within iraq after the jubilation. oh, saddam is gone. what makes this, if it is, different? >> one level is to be cautionary. it's not fundamentally different. once you get rid of the king, you create vacuums and very rarely, certainly not automatic the successors become the long term successors. the last i checked, there's not. so, things work out differently. what's different about libya is it's small. the ratio to population and territory makes it more manageable. the oil makes it more manageable. the similarities are more than

the differences. >> richard engel is live there in tripoli. what are you seeing around you today? >> there is still fighting in the city. tripoli is falling, but hasn't fallen, yet. rebels are holding 80% of this city. there have been clashes this morning around gadhafi's personal compound, also clashes in green square, the iconic square in this city where gadhafi used to hold speeches and rallies. the rebels are convinced they are liberating the city, to use their own terminology. they have renamed green square a martyr square. they will push out the gadhafi power. >> you have spent so much time in libya. take us through the last couple days. where we are sitting, it happened so quickly at the end that they went into tripoli.

tell us what you saw that made this possible. >> reporter: the key difference was taking the city of goya. it's a big city, 200,000 people. it's been crushed. the uprising of the city was crushed several times. about a week ago, there was an ability, a push on the city to establish a base. once the rebels were able to establish a foothold there were able to launch this assault on to tripoli. it really developed very quickly yesterday. the rebels consolidated their strength then they decided that it had begun. they walked into the city. thousands of rebels left their homes. they were marching, 20, 30 miles. once into the city, celebrations began. they dropped to their knees to

pray. we saw fireworks. faced with a humane wave of enthusiasm, gadhafi forces melted away. we saw uniforms strewn on the ground and they chose not to fight in the end, their own people. i think that was the turning point there. >> richard, the constant reference to rebels, using the term rebels, yet when you ok pie 80% of the city, tripoli, you are, in a sense, no longer the rebel. you are libya. because of your reporting and being with these people off and on and with this army, what is your sense of how quickly it could come together or fall apart? >> reporter: well, this goes back to the conversation you were having earlier about the scenes of jubilation in iraq and how quickly things disintegrated. the way they fought the war was different. in iraq, it was conducted by

americans. the iraqis played no part in the liberation. the first thing the iraqis did was loot the city of baghdad and a civil war broke out. this was very different. nato participated. it bombed a lot of heavy weapons gadhafi had and allowed the rebels to advance. the rebels, i guess they are the government, really took part in this war. they paid a price. they gave up many lives to take the city. there's a pride of ownership that comes with that. we haven't seen looting. we have seen an incredible enthusiasm as they are excited to build their own future. whether they put together political leadership, it will take time. they haven't taken full control of this city. we haven't seen the same dynamic from iraq. people came from their homes, sacked their city, turned on

each other. >> we heard a lot about the air strikes. at the very beginning, the rebel forces were tactically just awful. they were shooting each other and not organized. all of a sudden, we have this dramatic increase in their capability. i heard british and french special forces were involved in training these guys. what do you know? >> reporter: there are certainly special forces helping the rebels. we have known that from the beginning. this country is divided into two pieces. the eastern front around benghazi, they were fighting in open desert. as you know, that's very difficult. it's like fighting in the water. you can't make advances. as soon as you get attacked, you have to rush back and retreat. it's where they were firing rockets in wrong directions, running away from the fight. in the west, it's different

terrain. the rebels live in this area in the high ground. they live in the mountains. they were able to come down from the mountains and move into built-up areas, built-up urban areas on the outskirts of tripoli. they had more of a tactical advantage. no doubt, they had on the ground help from western special forces. i know french, i'm not sure about britisbritish. >> david. >> john anderson who spent a long time in libya and will be back again soon said when he first got there, the rebels didn't know about building trenches when bombing began. he would see, as you were saying before, people would get in cars and attack. drive up to the front line, get shot at and turn around and race away. not to make fun of it, but it

was tragic. what was the nature of the help on the ground? we should nail that down. it will have political ramifications here. what was the aid on the ground like and how extensive was it? >> reporter: sure. this is almost a new model of war where you have nato taking a supporting role and sending small teams on the ground. not armies of occupation like in iraq and afghanistan. in the east, where we saw all those marx brothers moments or mad max moments, they didn't dig trenches. they fired rockets in the wrong direction. they told the rebels to stop. hold their ground and not advance any further. they didn't move beyond that point. the focus became on trying to help the rebels in the western

mountains. what we saw and when i spoke with rebels in direct contact, communication. there was very poor communication between the air strikes and the rebels. effectively, nato was asking for co-ordinates and the rebels didn't know what kind of co-ordinates or where to tell them to drop the bombs. there was a lot of incidents of friendly fire. helping with communications and tactics an making the decision not to continue the advance from the east, which wasn't getting them anywhere and focus on the west. focus on the close areas where they have tactical advantage and could close in on tripoli. those two things. that fundmental decision where to attack was probably a nato adviser decision. >> final question, then we'll let you go. do you have a sense or anyone have a sense of where moammar

gadhafi is? bobby said he may be in the south of the country, but within the country's borders. second part of the question, does it matter where he is? are they just happy he is gone now? >> reporter: it matters where he is. they are looking for him. police are out hunting for gadhafi now. they have captured his sons. the most powerful son has been taken by the rebels. the rebels are in the process of negotiating with the criminal court to hand him over. we don't know where gadhafi is. he might be in the 20% of the city controlled by his loyalists. it's where gadhafi said he is. there are rumors he's in the southern part of the country, close to the border with chad where he has more supporters and people who want to help him. he's given a lot of money to african countries over the years. to answer your question, it matters. it matters to the people here. we don't know where he is.

>> richard engel, great reporting, as always from the ground in tripoli. truly an historic day in that country. take care. coming up, the libyan ambassador live also david ignatius. andrea mitchell rejoins us along with the financial times jillian tett. think oil. first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. hello. >> good monday morning willie. good morning, everyone. all the weather attention is on the east coast. the most significant hurricane threat in three years. we have not been hit in the united states for awhile. this is the first time. too early to tell who is going to get the worst of it. puerto rico is getting the worst of the storm. almost 1 million people without power. they were hit harder than they

thought they were beginning to be overnight. the storm is north of haiti. wednesday north of cuba. thursday approaches florida. a strong category two hurricane affecting florida, carolinas and georgia, friday and saturday. then all the rain heads up through the east coast. that's the concern out there, folks. we'll watch the rain for the rest of the week. the rest of the country looks tranquil and quiet. you are watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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we are very resilient and still very strong. we have still thousands and thousands of fighters who have nowhere to go but to fight. so this will increase and the death toll will increase because people are so scared of the

hatred of the other side, if they win. each side is terrified of the other side. >> welcome back to "morning joe." joining us now, jillian tett and andrea mitchell. mike barnicle, michael steele with us at the table. let's talk economics here. 2% of the world's oil supply in libya. what happens now? >> a lot of people are going to look closely to what the rebel group says they are going to do about oil production. if we see signs that they can surprise on the upside in the same way they surprise in the last 48 hours in getting into tripoli, they can be sure the oil keeps flowing. there's a little relief in the markets. we are seeing oil prices fall a bit. they suspect some of the uncertainty will move.

>> the price this morning is down a couple dollars? >> exactly. >> it's good news on the economic landscape now. there was a theory going down earlier one reason oil prices were rising. going down is good news for the global economy. >> andrea mitchell in washington with us. looking to see how the new coalition or the new group of rebels how they handle the oil and what happens now once the jubilation in now called martyr square, formally known as green scare. >> the oil indicator is a good indicator now. we have little evidence they are going to be able to create civil authority, policing, institutions of government.

they have been under pressure from nato, from u.s. officials and meeting with them regularly and was in benghazi until yesterday morning. they have not proved they are ready to live up to their commitments, bring in others and brought in other tribal groups. real governors and creating political structure is a big challenge. interestingly, during the war, they did not attack the oil fields. that is their future. since both oil fields are intact, we are seeing that oil producers are gaining because the companies clearly feel, the market feels they are going to be able to get back in there after no production for seven months. the u.s. doesn't import libyan oil, but it's a global market. very high quality oil. it is sweet.

it's very desirable. >> david, it's always thrilling to validate that freedom is contagious. we saw those scenes in tripoli today and talking oil and what would happen in libya now that gadhafi is gone. i don't want to be too negative, but it harkens part of my mind the talk after baghdad fell. >> anything falls. we were talking act the fall of the soviet union. unpredictable things happen and how long did it take. >> you covered it. >> i did. how long did it take for france to become a stable economy. >> did a hell of a job. >> thank you. the rewards were worthy. it's hard to say. i'd love to know if libya was considered an efficient oil

producer before this began. obviously it's fallen off since this began a year ago. what was the state of the oil production beforehand? >> it was relatively efficient. when the soviet union broke up, when revolution is happy, they are messy. what everyone is looking for is a symbol, a sign if the opposition can get it back together. what happens with oil is crucial. it's fine for a bigger question about the degree to which you are going to see a stable infrastructure coming out. can we actually have a transition that works? if we do see the oil slow, if we see the signs of a government coming together and operating perhaps in the system, that will be encouraging well beyond libya. >> any notion that the stable democracy can appear anywhere in the world is magical thinking.

we have been guilty of this thinking a lot. there's no telling what will happen in libya anymore than there was in the soviet union or around the world. when we hear things about stable democracies happening in five seconds and with a little bit of foreign advice, i think that's overoptimistic to say the least. on the other hand, let's not forget that gadhafi is somebody that was in cahoots with every bad actor on the global in the last 40 years. he was a horror. installed in 1969 there after, a real police state of complete surveillance and freedom. the fact he's gone can only be good. >> it can be good, but it gets back to the question more broadly speaking, what are the markets looking for? what is the period through which

or from which they will say okay, stability now is going to be something we can invest in here because you have this hodgepodge of rebels faction after faction is sort of around the idea of throwing out gadhafi. now, we are in a post-gadhafi reality. we attacked the oil fields. who gets the benefit from that? how is the prize going to be divided up. where do the markets go from there? >> one thing about markets rksz they are in a stage of terror. the last four years have been one nasty shot after another. whether it's on the economy, the banks, et cetera. they are looking for a sense of consistency. some symbols of organization, predictability, above all else. that's why oil could be a very important symbol.

it matters a lot. if you can create a sense that there is someone in charge, they are coming together, if they can have a few shots that the oil is working, they will perhaps maybe be the beginning of a circle where libya could work out and avoid economic vents and be encouraging. i'm not saying it's going to happen. at least in terms of what happens is an important benchmark. >> this is a country whose population is smaller than new york city. iraq is a much more complicated, bigger, messier situation. not to say, in addition to our own invasion there. >> you have already seen the oil price, the share price rising this morning. it is rising right now. again, it's a sign it's interesting and to work again. >> you have seen in the post soviet world, the new russia.

today, 20 years later, not such a small country. big, big country. from a revolutionary standpoint, the response 20 years later to the people, for the people in terms of looking at the economy, recent numbers show they are not that happy about where things are. >> well, the question for, you know, a place that is far less stable than, you know, the soviet union -- >> depends on the place. if you are in astone ya and it's not that deep, that's one side of the picture. if you are living in the russian provinces, that's one. if you are living in wealthy moscow, it's another. the scale of the former soviet union is vast. the results of what came out of 1991 difr radically. >> we have a lot more to talk

about in europe. president obama and european leaders get ready for life after a peaceful transition. we talk to secretary defense william cohen on the white house's next step. "morning joe" will be right back. confidence. available in color.

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♪ welcome back to "morning joe." live pictures for you in libya. stephanie gosk joins us on the phone from tunisia near the libyan border. she's making her way into libya. appreciate you being with us. you were in mbenga -- mbenga sa early in this. tell us what you have seen in the arc of this rebellion. >> once the wheels started coming off, they came audiotape quickly. no one thought it was going to be as easy as it was to go into tripoli last night. they are essentially

unchallenged. gadhafi had an iron-clad grip that slipped away almost immediately. we saw the celebration and jubilation in green square, which they have renamed martyr square. going back to the early days, there was an expectation not just among libyans but the international community that this day was going to come sooner than it did. the ease with which the rebels took over eastern libya gave hope that it would spread to tripoli. it turned out not to be the case. there was a lot of frustration and talk of stalemates. in the matter of days, it fell apart. >> mike barnicle is here with us. >> what is going on at the border? are people trying to get out of libya or going back into libya?

>> reporter: we haven't made our way to the border yet. it is still in control by government forces. there's one further down south that's been under rebel control for several months. there have been people over six months leaving libya afraid of what the situation would become, you know, during this fall of gadhafi. right now, a lot of people, really, are trapped. the road is unsafe to travel. it's a mix of control between the rebels and gadhafi's forces. they are still in some fighting. the capitol itself has fighting around the compound. >> you mentioned the speed with which tripoli fell. richard engel says he's seen piles of military government

uniforms on the ground. what does that say about the grip moammar gadhafi had and the loyalty or lack of loyalty of those trying to protect him in the final hours? >> reporter: certainly we were under the impression in our visit to tripoli in the last couple months that he had firm control over city. he did have loyal forces. i think at that point there was hope he might be able to secure control. there were a lot of people that were taking bets. they didn't know which way it was going to go, whether gadhafi was going to come out on top. who do you stick with and who is going to win this? people's loyalties change very quickly as they worry about their survival and the survival of their families. >> stephanie gosk live for us. travel safe. thanks for calling in. up next, david ignatius.

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welcome back to "morning joe." joining us from washington, associate editor and columnist for "the washington post," david ignatius. >> great to be here. >> your initial reaction of the pictures you saw last night and this morning from libya. >> well, as president obama said last night, i think we are seeing a tipping point for the obama administration. this must be a moment of great relief. this long libya campaign. it's been going on for six months. it's difficult. the administration didn't want to get involved.

nato was to the point of running out of ammunition. people were getting nervous. in the end, this strategy slowly strangling the regime. decisively moving on the grab in the last minutes. very well coordinated. last assault on tripoli seems to have worked. the question is what kind of tripoli will we see post-gadhafi. can order be maintained? can the mistakes made in iraq be avoided? it's what officials are worrying about this morning. >> governor rendell, it's what you were worried about this morning. should the president get credit and the way it was prosecuted get credit for the outcome. >> is there any doubt the rebels wouldn't have succeeded without nato air power? >> governor, without nato help, this rebel army was rag tagged. it's a cliche, but they were not

organized. nato had trouble figuring out the control wanted with the rebels. i'm told it's gotten much better especially in this end game. they utilized a range of capabilities they had. arabic speakers they were able to pull in. it was very well coordinated. that's why they got to tripoli so fast. >> david, do you have a sense from your reporting and sources that the top tier of the rebel structure, is there a command structure that would be able to transfer into governing and could they deal with perhaps the largest problems in the ground, the disarmorment of so many armed people? >> mike, there is a structure of the council that we have been working with and cultivated for

this moment. there's been increasing talk about governance issues in a new regime. you put the finger on the trickiest thing in the next 48 hours, securing the weapons. there's scary ones the forces have. getting it locked down. one other wonderful thing is the miraculous rescues of americans who have been trapped by the libyans these last months who were freed yesterday. i heard a call from a man's sobbing wife. she couldn't believe it. we'll hear more on that. >> david, we have a piece of the magazine from wendy stephenson from syria, damascus and what's going on there. what is different? why can't we help in syria? what prevents that, if your view, if you feel that way?

>> i think, if the libya outcome is as successful as it looks today, there will be calls to extending it to syria. people will be wise to resist that. if the syrians do not want outside intervention. there's a way to make the syria transition worse, it's to have intervention. there are lots of things that can be done. right now, the key strength is to point to arraign yan assistance from iran and hezbollah and lebanon as the only thing pulling the president of syria up. to come in on the other side and have nato supporting the rebels in syria, i think would be seen across the arab world as a negative. >> doesn't that allow him to

shoot his own people, kill his own people at an incredible rate as he's been doing in resent months? >> yes, people raise that question. looking at libya, we spent hair pulling, it's not working, it's going to slow, it's never going to work. the great council in libya was patience. just because you want a victory quickly. syria is nothing on the side. the question is because syria is so complicated how does a transaction look. i wouldn't think, oh my gosh, let's change the strategy suddenly approach would be more sensible there than it would have been in libya. >> andrea mitchell, we talk about the u.s. role and bringing the end to the gadhafi regime.

you tweeted something last night about 1981, ronald reagan, the fight. you know, the berlin nightclub bombing. 1988, pan am flight 103 over lockerbie scottland, then in 2003 changing relations with them quite a bit. we got libya to shut down their program. they took a public meeting. walk us through this bizarre interwoven relationship we have had with this man. >> he being so bizarre, the tribal leader we recall ronald reagan ordering the air strike back in april of 1986. it hit one of his children, the daughter was killed. so there was an attempted targeting of gadhafi back then. that was, of course, in

realuation for the bombing in berlin that killed our service members. the pan am bomber who is still alive who was let go on compassionate grounds by the scottish courts after having been convicted is now still alive several years later even though he was ill with prostate cancer. two years ago, the gadhafi speech at the united nations lasting 100 minutes went on and on and on. he was ranting an raving. a bizarre performance. the reason condoleezza rice had that meeting with him and they took him off the list of terrorists is because of the paying of families of pan am victims, he turned over the nuclear equipment. he turned over the equipment and

was taken way down to tennessee and saw it being dismantled. this has been a bizarre relationship with the libyan leader. now the end game. >> we haven't talked much about pan am flight 103. 189 americans among 270 dead. there has to be a small measure of comfort for those families today. >> i don't know. we refer to the word compensation, you know, compensated them. how do you compensate them for the loss of a son or daughter? how do you do that? >> some people think it's hypercritical he was off the terrorist watch in '07 and then we are involved in a military project now that's turned out the way it's turned out. it should be remembered that this military mission was hastened by, was caused by the

imminent killing of thousands of libyans. >> right. >> gadhafi was about to kill many more thousands of libyans than we could even imagine. nato put a stop to it. the difficulty came the next day because we were in a mission that was no longer protective but protective, but clearly supportive of the rebels. but part of that, all of that was because gadhafi refused to stand down. he went on trying to steez city after city. so i think when you're saying that president obama deserves some credit, this is part of where his patience and his looking past the you new cycle is a positive. some people, myself included, get frustrated that he doesn't clarify policies in a way we want. but this patience in conjunction with britain and france -- >> paid off big time.

>> paid off. >> and, mike, that terrorist watch list has been political e politicalized from the get-go. who is on and who is off that watch list has more to do with our international politics than israeli terrorists. >> and one quick final point. the contrast is, of course, what's happening in syria where we are not prepared to take military action because we don't have the arab allied support and some skoo argue is far worse than what gadhafi was threatening to do in benghazi. >> there, the big factor the iran, isn't it? >> exactly. >> andrea, thank you so much. david ignatius, can you stay with us for just one more second? >> you bet. coming up, rebel forces continue clash in tripoli, but where is moammar gadhafi? also, another live report from the ground. you're watching "morning joe."

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welcome back to the show. we want to ask you about the new yorker ebook as the anniversary of 9/11 approaches. what are you putting together? >> it's an ebook that is up now. it contains an article that ran in the first week, a lot of really interesting writers who applied their intelligence in reporting energy to the story that has completely shaped their era. completely, domestically, foreign, on our psychology. and i think there are two currents running along with it. it is the resilience of people that have lost loved ones and are fellows in washington and new york, but also the way osama bin laden succeeded in shaping this last decade in a tragic way. he may be dead, but the mission he set out to do was to

destabilize the west, psychologically, militarily and in terms of its politics, tragically succeeded in a large attempt and it's going to take us a while to write that. it's really the only arab spring that is the antidote to this terrible destabilization. >> the book is "after 9/11." david, thanks so much. great to have you here this morning. >> thank you. >> david ignatius. >> he's sticking around. >> oh, is he? >> yes. >> my old boss, "the washington post." >> he was some student, i'll tell you that. coming up, colonel jack jacobs will join us. we'll bring in the libyan ambassador to the u.s. [ male announcer ] this is the network. a network of possibilities. excuse me? my grandfather was born in this village. [ automated voice speaks foreign language ] [ male announcer ] in here, everyone speaks the same language.

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what they want right now is revenge. they are filled with hatred, supported by tribal conflict, supported by bitterness from the previous years and all they want is to destroy this beautiful city. >> for them, tripoli has fallen and now they are in control. this is what they've been telling us. for years, we weren't able to speak. for years, we were prevented from saying what we believe for freedom, any source of freedom whatsoever. these people are confident that

the government has now fallen and they are -- >> i am very happy. i am very happy because we are where we are. we are now free. >> what we are hearing from people here over and over is that this is a historic day. the day we live in freedom, that is something we are hearing over and over again. people are saying god is great. they are thankful that this day has come and now a new future may be beginning for libya. >> nbc's richard engle reporting last night from tripoli. welcome back to "morning joe." joining us from washington, the libyan ambassador to the oois, ali al jalih. thank you for being with us this morning. >> thank you. >> so the libyan embassy in

washington reopened under a new flag last wednesday. you were the ambassador, but you quit your post in february in protest of the crackdown by libyan president moammar gadhafi. what are your thoughts this morning? >> i am feeling great. this is a dream come true after 42 years. now you see the people are happy, they are enjoying their celebration. they are confident that they will take over the city now, which is very really enjoyable that they control tripoli with a very minimum casualty and they've been treating the gadhafi forces in a very high manner and that's really great fp. i am very impressed. i am very proud of the libyans and i am very happy for the new generation. who will they enjoy their lives in a better atmosphere? >> mr. ambassador, what can you tell us about your life and the

life of the average leadership libyan over the last 42 years under moammar gadhafi? these scenes of jubilation are indicative of someone they wanted to see go for a very long time. why was life so bad under him? >> i have been in the foreign service for 42 years and i am very sure that the most difficult job is to be a representative of libya. gadhafi's actions, gadhafi's policy, ga definite physician's relation is unpredictable. and we have the pressure, of course, when we see the instruction and we seven instruction very silly sometimes and we have to deal with them and we have to protect sometimes about this kind of action. we have to deliver. i think it is very frustrating. and for the last, of course, 50 years, maybe 75 years, gadhafi controls everything and he doesn't like to hear anything,

even if he makes some recommendation, sometimes he just throws them away because he feels he doesn't knees need this recommendation. dealing with gadhafi is very difficult. the people that are close to him, they suffer more than i. >> mr. ambassador, before we get to david ignatius, who is in washington and i assume has several questions for you, i'd like to ask you right now, at the moment, what structure is there on the ground and what structure is there on the ground to prevent your country from assembling into a tribal violence, looting, things that we all saw as americans happening in baghdad? >> you know, it is very simple. we do have the running the

country country and we are confident that the tnc, they proved to the people, they proved to us, they proved to the world, they are very organized now. they know what they are doing. they have a plan after gadhafi's collapse. this man has worked very well. and for the -- maybe the challenge now we are facing that how we keep the city is clean and we keep it from -- >> david ignatius has a question for you. >> it's nice to hear your happiness of these events. my question is on this day and

the days that follow, who will control the libyan army? how will that command and control structure work? will the army report to the interim body? what have you been told about that? >> well, we have the minister of defense but the minister of defense, of course, the act and the instruction of the tnc. and in every city of libya now, we have a council composed of some of the local people that have been taking care of the cities and organizing themselves to move in the right time. i'm not very well -- i'm not very -- i'm not worried at all about the tribal conflict. you will not see this happening in libya at all. this is not an issue for yus. the issue for us is how to get rid of gadhafi and we have done this now. after one year, we will be able

to manage our country. we will join the democratic community and this is why the libyans are fighting and dying for the cause of democracy which they really enjoy for the last 42 years. >> do you believe, mr. ambassador, you'll have elections after one year? >> of course i believe it. and this is the promise of the people made and this is the promise the people are expecting. there is no alternative. we have to have a democratic system. we have to give the people the rights. the people, they get this freedom not by protesting only, but gadhafi, gadhafi's forces, they've been killing thousands and thousands of people, more than 25,000 of young libyans they put in jail. they could nap it from their families. this is a very major issue for

us and we have to protect this freedom, we have to protect our people and we have to train them how to enjoy democracy. >> we have julian from the financial times. >> mr. ambassador, this is clearly a very exciting moment. but i'm curious, what do you expect u.s. and european governments to do going forward? because there's been a lot of soul search background the role that the u.s. and european governments have or have not played. but what kind of help or aid would you expect to see or like to see in the next few weeks? >> i think maybe i can summarize a few things. first of all, they have to be stand by for any surprising act from gadhafi if he still can do anything. second thing, we need the money. we need the budget. they have to free our money. we need the budget very, very, very, very crucial this issue for us. people are injured.

we need treatment, we need medical supply, we need food. we need to take care of the communication and we need take care of everything. this is a very important issue. the third one is how the european and the united states help us to establish our democracy, how they help us to take care of our security. libya has a very long border with the south and that's a very serious border. we need their help. we need their -- if gadhafi freed to one of the african countries, he's still dangerous. this is a major issue. we want to have a very important and direct interest relation with the countries there. and we have to work together to get -- to secure the libyans. they've been suffering for the last 40 years. at the end of the last 42 years, it was the gadhafis who started

killing his people for the last six months. >> and on the money question, mr. ambassador, british prime minister david cameron came out this morning and said great britain will be unfreezing libyan access. one more question for you -- >> well, i was going to ask you something, mr. ambassador. britain is going to unfreeze its assets. the united states still has frozen libyan assets, but how can the united states unfreeze those assets before the tnc comes out with a constitution that can be ratified by the rest of the country? why should the united states unfreeze its assets when it doesn't know what's going to happen to them? >> that's not fair, my friend. how do you face our challenge, the challenge we have? you know that after the gadhafi regime collapsed, that the dreams of the people there are at the high point. and we have to take care of the -- of everything we have there. and there is no country have the right to delay the -- to free

the assets for the libyans. we are not asking for a shelter from anybody. this is a most important issue for the libyans. how can you learn anything if you don't have a budget? what do you want? do you want the libyan people to turn against the pnc and we have a problem with another conflict? this will not happen. we need our money. at least what we need now is a -- >> mr. ambassador, 42 years in the foreign service. you have recited a partial litany of the horrors of the ga definite fee regime. you've been ambassador since february 2011 of the libyan government. a cynical person -- not that i am one -- a cynical person might ask what took you so long to resign? >> well, took me so long because i have no other option. this is my country. i'm there to serve my people.

i'm not serving gadhafi. and we believe that the honest people, they leave the ground for gadhafi to do what he's doing, i think this is not really the right thing to do. and my resignation, i believe it came just in the right time. i believe mr. shalgum in new york and myself here, we made serious changes. and our resignation, it was really appreciated by not only our people, but all over the world. then i think we have to take the right position in the right time and in the same thing, we are -- we are sure that during the last 42 years, we are clean, hour hands are clean. here in the united states when it came 2004, i never discriminate between who is with gadhafi or who is against gadhafi. this is why i have a very strong

relation with the community before and after and that's my pleasure. >> that's ali al jalii, ambassador to the u.s. new libyan government to the united states of america. thank you very much for being with us this morning. >> thank you. >> david ignatius, the ambassador suggested there could be elections within a year. he said they just need some money freed up. perhaps a rosier picture than experts see over the next month in that country. >> the ambassador was very optimistic. he said all the right things. the truth we have to raeb is that nobody can predict with confidence where this will go. and it becomes even more important now for nongovernmental organizations, for the state department and other foreign services to work with the libyan transitional national council to structure these things. it won't happen automatically.

and i think we need to start thinking about this process in the arab world, as the abe rabs transition, where it's going to take a lot of work. while i was hardened by what the ambassador said, i'm sure people are thinking, how do we get each of the pieces of support for a process of transition in place quickly? >> and it's not just the issue at the u.s. state department. of course, you have to remember that the french have played a leading role in this in many ways from talking about this being a -- for sarkozy. the british, again, have been at the forefront. it's going to be an issue of the west pulling together and trying to provide a unified forum for support. the other thing you've got to watch now is the rest of the arab world and what signal they do or don't give. it will be interesting to see if tunisia comes down to congratulate the libyan rebels. >> david ignatius, quickly on

the question of syria, did the events over the last couple of days change the way we handle syria now? >> well, i think they'll embolden people to think pressure works. there will be arguments from military force as a military component in syria. i expect they'll be resisted. it was important that gadhafi go in terms of the frame of mind of the citizen movements in every country in the arab world. i'm sure syrians on the streets will be emboldened by this. the truth is, what will be decisive in syria is the moment the army stops shooting citizens on behalf of this regime. and some people think that's coming. when that happens, you hit the tipping point. >> and one last thing about libya, don't forget the oil. france's interest in this, britain's interest, arab interest and libyan interest all

resolves around a business that can produce something in the neighborhood of $40 billion per year in an asset. and i bet you everybody in the world will be scrambling for it in this country. that's really basically a little country, 7 million people sitting on billions of dollars worth of assets. it's going to on be a free for all, trust me. >> 6, 7 million people, 2% of the world's oil 0u8 output. david ignatius, thank you for being with us this morning. >> great to be with you. >> coming up, william cohen joins us to discuss the impact of the situation in libya. first, bill carons with more on the atlantic season hurricane. >> this is when we can expect big hurricanes, major hurricanes. overnight, this hit puerto rico much harder than they were expecting. they have almost 1 million people without power. the torms storm is moving away from puerto rico. the next stop is the coast of the dominican republic. then it's going to come through the bahamas and look out florida

in the southeast of the united states. because this isn't going to take a track over land for that much, we will see it strengthening in the days ahead. by the time we get near florida, it could be a category 2 hurricane. so all of a sudden, we're talking serious business and potential for serious damage and power outages, all of florida and possibly the southeast. it's difficult to tell who could get the landfall. today is a gorgeous day in new england. finally, dry weather. watch out in new england. that hurricane is going to bring a ton of rain to you over this next labor day weekend, especially sunday and monday. keep that in the back of your mind nor the upcoming plans. deep texas, 104 in dallas. 102 in san antonio. you're watching "morning joe." [ female announcer ] what if your natural beauty could be flawless too?

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gadhafi must stop fighting without conditions and clearly show that he has given up any claim to control libya. as for his future, that should be a decision for chairman jalil and the new libyan authorities. this has not been our revolution, but we can be proud that we have played our part. there will undoubtedly be difficult days ahead. no transition is ever smooth or easy. but today, the rare rab spring is a step further away from oppression and dictatorship and a step closer to freedom and democracy.

and the libyan people are closer to their dreams of a better future, free for the terror of gadhafi. >> prime minister david cameron is speaking this morning at 10 joining us now from washington, former secretary of defense and ceo of the cohen group, william cohen. mr. cohen, good to see you this morning. >> good morning. >> as a man who had to contend with the gadhafi regime as secretary of defense, what are your thoughts this morning? >> well, i think we can all share in the joy of seeing this man go. he hasn't quite gone yet, but i think it's inevitable that he will. he has been a pariah to virtually every leader throughout the region and i think that's one of the reasons why he has no friends to turn to as such, other than the militias that he was able to pay for through the trend to security the apparatus. but i think most are going to be happy to see him go and then the question will become what happens now? and you've been discussing that in terms of, number one,

maintaining stability. number two, hopefully the libyan rebels, now the government, will not seek to purge all of the people who have been associated with gadhafi on a wholesale basis. obviously, there are some who will be charged with human rights abuses and crimes against humanity. but i think it will be a mistake for them to simply go to a purging campaign without trying to seek stability first, bring in people who have been managing their industry, to the extent they have a bureaucracy as such, making sure that they can take advantage of that. otherwise, it's going to be chaotic for some time to come. >> mr. secretary, you've been there before. you sat in the same seat that leon panetta sits in today. could you give us a sense, please, of what do you do today? you've got a nation in jubilation over their leader, gadhafi, being deposed. you've got a nation of 6 million

people, probably 5.5 million people armed walking around with rpgs and surface to air missiles. what do you do today from washington to sort of link that thing up and going forward to make it a more peaceful and perhaps we have a right to expect? >> first, you make as much contact as you can with all of the allies who have been involved in this particular process. we just heard from the british prime minister. i'm sure that president sarkozy is very much engaged, as well. and i would say combining the efforts of both the military and our embassies with our dip low mats, trying to bring expertise to the libyan people at this point saying, we want to help. this is your revolution and you're the ones doing the fighting and the dying and, therefore, you must claim this as your total victory. we want to help you set up the apparatus that will help bring stability, that will help create institutions and that will help on a humanitarian basis.

but i think we have to step back and make sure this is not seen as the united states or the west rushing in to take over control of the country. the perceptions and the optics of how we move forward will be important to the libyan people. >> mr. secretary, we know the british and french are on the ground, special forces have been training these guys. but people we haven't spoken about, i think we should be very much concerned about, and that's the egyptians the. they have been on the ground particularly in the east. we don't know what role they will play in egypt or in the middle east. should we be concerned about it? and what do we do about it? >> i'm not sure we can do much bett about it. i know our military has a very close relationship with the egyptian military and to the extent that the line of

communication remains solid, then i think at least we have a way of knowing what is going on on the ground, what the plans are. in fact, the muslim brotherhood may be emerging as a more moderate force in egyptian politics than we have seen before because there are some extreme elements if we want to turn that country into a real religious state under sheria law which would prevent problems certainly for the egyptian people and also for the entire region, i think. so maintaining close communication with the egyptian military, we know that field marshall is a man that has stability, although he's come under criticism lately. we had close communications with him over the years. and i think that will be important in terms of what role egypt will play, whether a support role or a destabilizing role. i suspect the former not the latter. >> mr. secretary, having served in the u.s. senate for quite some time and certainly in the

clinton administration, you've seen the political dynamics of the middle east unfold over the last 20 years or so. how do you see this playing out politically with david cameron, the british prime minister saying we're going to free up the assets of the libyan people so that they can access those assets to transition to a better government, if you will, or a better society. the underlying aspect of this is the politics. is this a win for this administration, for the obama administration in terms of the politics or is there still a lot more out there that we need to take a look at before we declare victory on that, to the political front? >> well, i would invote the if a loss fear, yogi berra who said predictions about the future are pretty hard. anyone who is going to predict how this will unfold is engaging in a bit of falling. as far as how the politics will

play out, frankly, i think president obama was getting unfairly criticized for, quote, leading from behind, because i think it was important for the united states to play a supportive role, given the fact that we're still engaged in war in iraq. we're now discussing whether we stay longer in iraq by leading at the end of the year. we're very much engaged in a war in afghanistan and the motion that we will take the most aggressive role in going into libya rink will stretch our capacity beyond what it is today and certainly would have had political fallout on capitol hill. the issue for me at this point is should the administration claim some credit? yes, because nato assets, and that means many of the u.s. assets allowed the governments to fight this more quickly. and i think also we have to remember, we were not eager to get involved in this particular

matter. secretary gates said this was not a national security interest. but once the british, once the french declared that they were going to be on the forefront and the arab league endorsed a no-fly zone, then i think they had very little decision but to be engaged. i think that there was some delay in really intensifying that bombing activity, so it took a little longer than i would like to have seen it. but so far, it looks like the plan is coming out successfully. and so president obama and his administration can claim some credit, but this is really -- the credit belongs to the libyan people. >> so if you were in the hot seat right now, would you unfreeze any libyan assets held in the system? >> yes. we're operating pretty much in

the dark. were they going to be supported by the muslim brotherhood? were these agents for other countries? etcetera approximately so we've taken a leap of faith. that leap of faith said we are going to support this effort because gadhafi has been such a brutal dictator, anyone is better than him and these people appear to be yearning for freedom and hopefully democracy. so i think anything that we can do to help them stabilize the country, if it's money they need, there are other countries that can help, as well. united arab emirates, saudi arabia, others who have plenty of oil money at this point can come in and help stabilize. but i think for the united states, the important is to snam that we, too, want to see them how much you release immediately. >> mr. secretary, i want to ask you about the genocide task force that you lead along with

madeleine allbright. if we in nato do not intervene, there will be perhaps mass atrocities we moammar gadhafi. on the other hand, syria has not prison to that today. how do you define. and will be will you spell participate in all of this. >> basically, we said we had to set up a system whereby we would try to have early warning signs that we could then rally the international community. this was not going to be the united states acting on its own that we were the moral policemen of the world. and when we saw abuses taking place, much as we're seeing in syria today, that we were going to, you know, saddle up the army and ride into each of those countries that were identified as engaging in gross human

violations and genocidal activities. it was to raise the level of concern, rally the diplomatic community. the military component was the last aspect of it. but basically, it was to raise the voice of the people around the world to say this is unacceptable behavior in the world in which we're living to have any country gun down its people in the streets and commit mass murder. so i think president obama in embracing this has made a real step forward in trying to make sure that genocide does not take place in the future. i think that the syrian president is very close to inviting that condemnation from the international community. i would hope that the u.n. and all the economic community will

do the thang. coming up, with the instability have an impact on the markets and on the price of oil? it already has. we'll get a check on business with simon hobbs in just a minute. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] we've got all you need for back to school with low prices every day on everything. backed by our ad match guarantee. save money. live better. walmart. build an app for the sales team. and see my family while they're still awake. [ male announcer ] with dell global services, jim's i.t. needs are supported in over 100 countries.

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when people don't support plans that have in the past garnered bipartisan support, had people are willing to walk the country to the brink of default, when people, instead of saying where there's a will there's a way, it's my way or the highway, you have to assume that politics is at play. >> it is unthinkable to me that the republican party would say we can't touch, we can't touch tax cuts for the wealthy. we can't touch special interest corporate tax loopholes because that will hinder the economy, but we'll allow a $1,000 tax increase on the average american come january. how can that be? the only explanation for it is politics. >> david axlerod talking yesterday morning about the economy and the president's upcoming jobs speech. this all comes as vice president joe biden talked to a group of university students on the final stop of his four-day visit to

china, the vice president telling the audience the united states will handle its debt problem, assuring the group that despite the recent market turmo turmoil, the u.s. remains, quote, the single best bet in the world in terms of where to inch vest. one student asked vice president biden the safety of china's $1.7 billion in u.s. treasury secretaries. biden responded, quote, you're safe. we're going to check in on business before the opening bell. simon, what are you looking at today? let's talk about libya. the price of oil is coming down as the market debate tess degree to which we're going to be able to get back online, the 1.3 million barrels a day that we lost in libya. there's a lot of concern that the infrastructure may not be there and the oil companies will have to go in and determine that. but on the face of it, it's quite good. whether it will speak true to u.s. consumers is another

question. "the journal" this morning reporting that nymex is down 38% since early may, but the prices at the pump are only down 9%. part of that is to do with on the east coast of the united states, gasoline price res basically pegged to what happened on the international market. on the brent market, oil furthers supplies. it also includes china's consumption and china is using more and more oil. that's going to push prices up. >> some european countries, italy says they've reactivated their oil facilities there in libya, so wasting no time. simon, what about the whole of europe? i want to talk to you about this, too, jillian. the market was down on friday. what's the latest on the eu handling the debt crisis? >> i don't want to get too much into this. one of the ways people beam believe they could save it is by issuing these joint bonds.

angela merkel was attempting to say germany in addition going to do that. perhaps she was less vehement than we has been before. that is very much medium term action. still, the market is concerned about short-term funding and the prospect according to the critics, that could collapse to at graer extent and whether or not the fed has to come in. to be honest with you, at the moment, it's still quite messy. let me leave it at that. >> jillian. >> i'd say it's worse than messy. if you want to get really depressed, look at the euro zone. it's not just the fact that the economic fundamentals are not good. even germany is coming out with bad economic data or gloomy economic data. it's the fact that the europeans can't pull together and get a solution. one of the really interesting facts right now is that if you look at the portion of debt to gdp across the euro zone, it's lower than in america. it's 88%.

so if they could come together and say, issue joint/euro bonds, find some kind of common solution, have the stronger countries help the weak, they could find the solution. the fact that angela merkel has come out and said she's not ready for these joint bonds, indicates they're just not there yet. i think there will be a lot of mess in the coming weeks. >> simon hobbs, live at the new york stock exchanges, thank you so much. coming up next, we'll go live to martha's vineyard, the president is monitoring the situation closely in libya. he put out a statement late last night. as much as i can about a company before i invest in it. that's why i like fidelity. they give me tools and research i can't get anywhere else.

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in martha's vineyard watching updates on what's happening in libya. kristin, what's the president doing today? >> hi there, willie. we don't know what his exact plans are today. we don't know if we'll hear from him. it's certainly a possibility. we will get a briefing from the secretary. at 9:00 last evening, he held a conference call with a number of his top advisers, including his chief of staff, bill daley, secretary of defense leon panetta, admiral mike mullen. so he's trying to stay tapped into this situation. then just after 10:00, he released this statement. i'm going to read a brief part of that to you now. he said tripoli is slipping from the grasp of a tyrant. the surest way for the bloodshed to end is simple. moammar ga dar definitefy and

his regime need to recognize their rule has come to an end. he needs to relinquish power once and for all. essentially, president obama and others are ramping up power on gadhafi to leave. what you didn't hear in his statement, willie, is a discussion about where gadhafi must be. just mentioned the fact that there's a recognition that power is slipping away. that's because the united states doesn't know yet. they're still trying to get confirmation about that and we don't expect to hear from the president, to hear him speak out verbally until they can confirm that 100%. they're being very measured in their response, willie. >> yeah. i don't think there are a whole lot of people on the fates of the earth who know exactly where he is. governor rendell has a quick question for you. >> kristin, since there's so much controversy about the president going on vacation, does he intend to do more than just release statements? if i were him, aisle i'd be

behind that microphone in front of the cameras showing the american people i'm working. so do you think we'll hear from him today in person? >> it's a really good question. i think that it is very possible that we will hear from him as soon as the white house gets more confirmation about what specifically is happening from the ground. you're absolutely right. there has been a lot of discussion about this vacation before this libyan situation evolved, in part because of the economy. so i think it is possible that once the white house gets confirmation, we could hear from the president. back to you. >> kristin welker, thank you so much. up next, jon huntsman with fighting words for his republican colleagues running for approximated president. you'll hear it when we come back. [ woman ] welcome back, jogging stroller. you've been stuck in the garage, while my sneezing

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the minutes of the republican party becomes the anti-science party, we have a huge problem. we lose a whole lot of people that would otherwise allow us to win the election in 2012. when we take a position that isn't willing to em bragz evolution, when we take a position that runs counter to what 98 of 100 climate

scientists say, what the national academy of science has said about what is causing climate change and man's contribution to it, i think we find ourselves on the wrong side of science. in any event, i'm not sure what the average voter out there is going to hear that treasonist remark and say that sounds like a presidential candidate. but it gets to a broader point of, you know, the fact that we've had so much hope and hype in politics, we found z ourselves at the extreme ends of the political spectrum. and people are crying out for us to get back to some level of sensibility. >> jon huntsman yesterday morning. >> whew! he's fired up. >> michael steele, what's he doing here? he's positioning himself for the debate. they're going to get together in a couple of weeks and he's throwing out some gauntlets now.

with all these folks on the stage, you put some hot rhetoric out there, what are you going to do when she's standing right next to you? what are you going to do when you have governor romney over here? i think huntsman is trying to separate himself from the field a little bit, which everyone needs to begin to do. i think it's good stuff, it's entertaining, it's insightful, it's important politically. >> and i think, guys, if he's smart, he says to the crew around him, guys, how can we hope to win the philadelphia subbeshs or the cleveland suburbs when you guys are talking about evolution not being a scientific theory? we have to win this election. the one thing republican voters want to do is defeat barack obama. if he can make that argument that he's the most electable, will they forgive him his own sins? >> michael, this might win the philadelphia suburbs, but does the win the republican primary? >> and that's the problem. >> but if the republican voters want to win badly enough, they

listen to that argument, i think. >> and he's trying very hard to come across as the sane candidate, above all else. and the question is, is sane going to win the primary? that's the question right now. >> he said he wouldn't trust anyone else in the field to run the american economy. >> that's a very bold statement to make. coming up next, what if anything did we learn today? here is a look at your business travel forecast. after a weekend of showers and thunderstorms in new england, today will clear it out and be a nice day. if anyone couldn't get to their destination webs today they should be able to. boston, new york, washington,

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let's drink in the visual. >> so much going on. >> maybe we can play a few hoops. >> i'll tell you what i learned. mike barn kal can't wait until the end of the show before raiding the starbuck's pastry cart. the show is over in one minute. go ahead. >> i haven't eaten in a long time. i just learned to my great relief that joe scar borrow and i are going to get first crack at gadhafi's wardrobe. >> julian. >> follow the money in libya. watch who unfreezes the assets and where that money goes, into which happened. >> it's all about the money. we have no idea who the rebels are. do not unfreeze the assets until we do. >> he's got the fight. at least he sounds like it. let's s