learning more by having more people there. instead it would have been so much better to really ask barack obama, hillary clinton, i don't know john edwards tougher questions than they were getting. >> it is incumbent on the media to decide to exclude some of the less likely candidates. it's a tough call. otherwise we get no discussion at all. thanks, keli, as always, for your provocative insights. that does it for us today. i'm matt miller in for tidylan ratigan. "hard yn ball" is up right now. >> showing a tyrant the exit in libya. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm ron reagan in tonight for chris matthews. leading off tonight, on the way out. there is still fierce fighting in part of libya's capital, tripoli. as president obama put it this afternoon, gadhafi's rule is

over. there are celebrations in the streets as gadhafi's forces have melt away and his four-decade rule appears certain to come to an end. a report from libya and look at what gadhafi's fall means for the region and for the united states. of course, in a rational universe republicans would be praising president obama for taking the long view and aiding the rebels. but, instead, they're falling all over themselves to criticize him for not doing, quote, enough. no surprise there. in may, osama bin laden went town. now it looks like it's gadhafi's turn. the sour grapes republicans aside, doesn't president obama deserve a lot of the credit? plus, rick perry admitted if you close your eyes and listen to the dropped fwrkss, the act before you think rhetoric, you could swear george w. bush was doin' the talkin'. bush post-traumatic stress

disorder. we'll see if there's a cure. look who's offering the toughest criticism of the republican field. not president obama. not even democrats. it's jon huntsman who had at his rivals like rick perry for dismissing global warming and evolution. the gop is a party with a fringe on top. and huntsman says the extreme right wing of the gop will find itself unelectable. finally, let me finish. with the republican party's attack on logic and science. we start with the situation in libya. richard engel is chief foreign affairs correspondent, and he joins us on the phone from tripoli, libya. welcome, richard. glad you could join us. >> thank you very much. communications have been a little bit complicated today. but i am now in green square, which is in the center of tripoli. there are some rebels here, perhaps 100 or more. they've brought their heavy weapons. i think in the course of our conversation you'll hear some of

them probably fire them in the air. they are still celebrating. there have been celebrations in the city all day. but at the same time, there is also fighting going on in this city. the rebels hold about maybe 90%. but that key 10% they do not hold is gadhafi's compound. and don't think of gadhafi's compound like some sort of vacation villa. this is a military base. gadhafi lives on a military base. inside of it he still has tanks and artillery and he has been firing those tanks and those artillery rounds into civilian areas here in tripoli, making people obviously very nervous and they want to storm the complex. but the rebels don't seem to have the fire power to get inside this military complex. >> richard, do we know where gadhafi is at this moment? is the feeling that he is in this compound? tripo in tripoli? >> logic would dictate he is in the compound. then why would people be

fighting so hard to defend it? but logic is the only reason to base that upon. because we really have no idea where gadhafi is. no one in this country has any clue. people speculate that he's left the country, that he's in the south. maybe he's in the compound. perhaps it's just some of his hold-out troops who fear if they come out they'll be lynched in the streets. we really don't know who is fighting in the compound or who is -- who is in the compound and where gadhafi is. but we know that rockets and artillery are coming out of there heading into the city. >> what is your feeling, richard, about the eventual end game for gadhafi? is he the type of leader who will be offered asylum by some arab country, perhaps, or is he going to end up on trial like hosni mubarak or could it go even worse for him? could he perhaps not survive this coup? >> reporter: i think there's very strong likelihood that he could not survive this. the rebels want to go into his

compound tonight, if they can, and ransack it and hang him from the ramparts of green scare which i'm looking at right now. they want a nato air strike on the compound to finish the situation for once and for all and put an end to gadhafi. whether nato will do that is a different matter. nato has shied away from directly targeting heads of state in the past and said it's never targeted gadhafi. it was only targeting leadership targets and things like that. so i think there's a political decision that would have to be made to target the compound if the belief is that he is inside. >> are nato planes still flying over the capital or other libya right now? >> reporter: that, i think, is one of the reasons it's been so difficult to communicate today. we've been trying to broadcast and then had our communications cut all of the sudden. and as we hear nato aircraft in the sky. so nato planes are certainly above tripoli.

they're not right now. i think if they were we would be having trouble talking on this phone. but we have been hearing them. we have not been seeing them. and we've been seeing -- we've been having -- feeling the effects of them and their jamming equipment. >> all right. thank you, richard. nbc's richard engel. stay safe there in tripoli. i know it's a dicy situation there. so you take care of yourself. thanks for joining us. >> thank you very much. hisham melam is the washington bureau chief for al arab news channel. welcome. thank you for joining us. >> thanks. >> what do you think happens next? who are the rebels that are taking or going to take tripoli or appear to be about to take tripoli and what are the prospects for democracy moving forward do you suppose in that country? >> now that the libyan nightmare is over, we have a group of libyans. some of them used to be part of the old regime. gadhafi's regime. including the head of the transition council, the prime minister and others.

then you have another group of libyans, libyan exiles who many of them are extremely talented who live in the west arab world. they went back to libya after the uprising began. so now you have this group working together over the last six, seven months. that was the only silver lining in that long slug against gadhafi. these people began to discover each other, know each other, coordinate, collaborate. they do represent, you know, again, it's not a democratic foormulated council, but they do represent the various political currents in libya including islamists. so we have a group headed by a man who is highly respected, mustafa abdul jalil who spoke today from benghazi. their biggest order is to establish order in cities. then to start to lay down a road map that would include writing a constitution, preparing for elections, forming a transitional government. i think many of them including mr. abdul jalil realize that

transitions by nature are extremely precarious and difficult and that's why today he said something very interesting. he even threatened to resign if some of the rebels engage in loyalist activity such as settling of scores or committing violence. that's a very good sign. they deserve and will receive the support of the neighboring countries, arab countries, african countries as well as europeans and the united states. >> in martha's vineyard today president obama welcomed the news that the tide had turned in favor of the libyan opposition. but warned there was still risk. let's listen to what he had to say. >> sure. >> for over four decades, libyan people have lived under the rule of a tyrant who denied them their most basic human rights. now, the celebrations that we've seen in the streets of libya shows that the pursuit of human dignity is far stronger than any dictator. i want to emphasize that this is not over yet.

although it's clear that gadh i gadhafi's rule soeis over, he sl has the opportunity to reduce further bloodshed by explicitly relinquishes ping power to the people of libya and calling for the forces that continue to fight to lay down their arms for the sake of libya. >> what in your mind should happen to colonel gadhafi now? should he be granted asylum? put on trial? what do you think should happen? >> definitely no arab country will take him. he has been universal -- in fact, he alienated all of his neighbors. exile is not in the cards. i don't see and i hope that the libyans will not put him on trial in libya because they lack the legal infrastructure that will guarantee a transparent, fair trial. so the best option, at least from my vantage point, is to -- for him to be icc'd.

the international communal court. this will give the libyans at least the chance to focus on the real things. how to rebuild the country from scratch. unlike tunisia and egypt, the dictators there fell but the structure of the country remained. the libyans are going to start from scratch because gadhafi was the system. now it is a hollow system. he collapsed. all system collapsed. and libya is a country bereft of functioning institutions. there are no voluntary political, social organizations. civil society was decimated. there's no legal structure. and on top of it, the physical infratruckture was heavily damaged during the last six, seven months of fighting. so you have a country that on paper has a lot of money in the banks in europe and the united states. and they have oil reserves. but it's going to take a great deal of political organization and an orderly situation in the country to start the process of transition. this is what you call now

transition blues. transitions are going to be extremely difficult because you have a country with politics cease to exist for 42 years. and now the libyans are going to discover the abcs of basic politics. how to do, how to engage in coalition building, how to build institutions, how to have representation. then we can talk about real democracy the way we know it in the west. so essentially one would hope there will be basic respect for basic human rights and whether, you know, based on gender, minorities and whatnot. then the other thing also is that libya has some serious cleavages, political social and cultural cleavages. you have ethnic minorities. libya divided by east and west. ethnic differences, prescribetr differences. >> they have a tough road ahead. it's a lot easier to overthrow a government than to build one from scratch. thank you for joining us as

always. appreciate it. coming up, president obama helped the rebels in libya. now they're on the verge of toppling gadhafi. so why aren't the republicans giving him credit? that's next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. what's that thing? another medication. ♪ i really should have taken my shoes off before i got weighed. [ female announcer ] you've got a lot on your mind. that's why every walgreens prescription goes through a 10 point safeguard check that reviews your current walgreens health record for allergies and potentially harmful drug interactions. [ kate ] i can do this. [ female announcer ] the 10 point safeguard check from walgreens. there's a way to stay well. until i tried this. ] the 10 point safeguard check from walgreens. nothing helped me beat arthritis pain. it's salonpas.

pain relief that works at the site of pain... up to 12 hours. salonpas. just when we thought the 2012 presidential field was set, more candidates say they're thinking seriously about running. karl rove says he bets sarah palin will get into the race shortly after her visit to iowa this week. former new york governor george pataki is strongly considering joining the field. former new york mayor and presidential candidate rudy giuliani says he's seriously considering a run. oh, yes, and billionaire donald trump now says he would seriously consider a run as an independent. but, seriously, folks. one possible candidate made it clear today he's out. wisconsin congressman paul ryan. oh, darn. we'll be right back. od choice.

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welcome back to "hardball." what do the latest developments in libya mean for president obama? he faced heat earlier this year for how he handled the situation. does he now deserve credit for his policies? howard fineman is hufferington post media group's editorial director and robin wright is a joint fellow at the u.s. institute of peace and the woodrow wilson international center. she also authored a new book called "rock the casbah." welcome to you both. howard, no u.s. troops on the ground. no u.s. casualties that i'm aware of. is gadhafi's fall a vindication for barack obama's strategy of leading from behind? >> in this case, yes. i think any fair observer, and i've been talking to some of them today, would have to say so. he was criticized for not putting more muscle, american muscle, in the air or on the

ground. but gadhafi's going, going, almost gone. he formed and became part of an international coalition that -- that took control of the skies and took over what i think is now going to take over the diplomatic situation if they can. and i think in this case his vision of careful multicultural -- multilateral diplomacy and careful pinpointed use of force really did -- really did work and he deserves credit for it. >> the republicans, of course, don't see it that way. they're sort of nitpicking the situation. do they risk looking peevish and small-minded as a result? >> i'm laughing because if they -- if they ever worried about the risk of seeming peevish and small-minded i haven't noticed it. i mean, if they -- if barack obama came out and said, you know, i really love apple pie, they would say, apple pie is a

socialist plot. you know, no. look, the fact is, as this situation was developing, some people such as senator john mccain, then and now, were saying we should have been more forceful. we should have had more planes in the skies and maybe even troops on the ground. but at the same time, on the other side of the republican coin, there was sort of the new isolationist wing of the republican party saying by what right are we involved here at all? there should be a declaration of war. let's impeach the president, et cetera. what's interesting to me, ron, actually, is that the republican party is sort of mute in the sense that the presidential candidates aren't saying that much about this. the president got an equal amount of noise sort of from the isolationists and the hawks in the republican party. and the american people really aren't focused on it that much at all. >> republican senators john mccain as you mentioned and lindsay graham issued a statement on libya last night that said in part americans can be proud of the role our country has played in helping to defeat gadhafi but we regret that this success was so long in coming

due to the failure of the united states to employ the full weight of our airpower. yes, they're still at it. robin it sha-- >> excuse me. go ahead. >> i just wanted to ask robin, what now, robin? do we get out? do we get out quickly? or do we linger there? do we leave our ships off, off the shores of tripoli so that we can sort of monitor what happens next? >> the united states' role will probably be to work again through the international community, try to work through releasing frozen assets. the united states has between 3 $33 billion and $36 billion of gadhafi's money in u.s. banks. we can use that to help reconstruct. libya is actually one of the few places in the arab world that actually has a prospect of improving sometime in the near future. it has a very small population. 6.5 million people. it has enormous oil wealth. in trying to address the

economic and political needs of the people, it can deliver. it's also had this unique experience with five months of a transition national government that has been in place, that has learned not only how to bring diverse political forces together, but also how to collect garbage. and so they have done what other countries haven't gone through. it's had a bit of experience. they've tried to form an alternative government. they're not going to have the military takeover. this will be an entirely fresh start. so that's why libya is actually in some ways the most hopeful, even though it's at the moment the bloodiest. >> howard, if chaos ensues here, and we all know these are some of the most difficult days for libya ahead, it's one thing to run a dispottic ruler out of town. it's another thing to take over the government yourself and make it function, make it work for the people. if chaos ensues here, will obama then take the blame for that at least in the republicans' way of

looking at things? >> probably. but i think he has to be in the fine work of -- i mean finely tuned work of diplomatic and military management continuing on into the future. he can't -- he can't quit paying attention. and he has paid attention. but he's done it in a different kind of way from what we were used to during the bush years. so that means if there's going to be a big diplomatic convocation in paris, we have to be intimately involved in that. as robin says, if there's all those frozen assets and they're going to be repate ray treeuatek to libya, we need to have a role in that. this has been of, by and for the libyans for the most part. we haven't been bombing theobli. this hasn't been an american-led change. robin knows far more than i. the whole point here is that this is something that's happening in libya with libyans and for libyans.

we have to help assist, but we can't be running the show. and the president's going to have to run the risk of it not being smooth, but he's taken the risk so far. he'll have to continue doing the same. >> robin, looking ahead, does the success in libya provide some sort of blueprint or could it, perhaps, provide a blueprint for other countries? we're looking at syria now. some people are even talking about how we should go in and do the same thing that we did, you know, to gadhafi to assad. do you have any concern or are you aware of concerns in the region that now the u.s. has a great reason to just start playing -- openly playing the world's policeman? >> i think most people in the region understand libya was a unique case because of its own involvement in international terrorism. its shenanigans in the past and instability of its leader. this is the beginning of phase two of the arab up risings. this is a period where you bring together this critical moment when it's proven that no amount of military force can quash a

rebellion even by some ragtag militiamen. that you have in egypt the trial of hosni mubarak being held to account, being brought to justice. and the international community from washington to tokyo coming together and saying to president assad of syria, it's time to go. this is the kind of shot of adrenaline that will, i think, inject a new momentum, a new enthusiasm for the future. i don't think the united states has any interest nor does the international community in replicating what we did in libya in syria. the idea of a nato military alliance or even a u.s. role militarily in trying to back up the rebels on the ground, the sequence of events is very different. in libya you had the disintegration quickly into confrontation. it looked a little bit like a civil war. in syria you still have the majority of people turning out week after week after week in peaceful civil disobedience. this is a different kind of

dynamic. the u.s. and its allies are going to have to kind of stand back and let syria play out. but syria is the next big case and arguably the most important country in the arab revolts right now. >> former utah governor jon huntsman was asked about libya earlier this month at an event in new hampshire. let's listen to what he had to say. >> with the fact that he went around congress and he's not -- he's not abiding to the war powers act? >> i think congress is in a mild uproar about it. >> very mild? >> i have a fundamental problem generally. i mean, beyond this decision. just with the decision that has been made to get involved in libya in a tribal country. we have no definable interests of state. we have no exit strategy. look at afghanistan. do you want to get involved with tribal government? let history be your guide. >> do you think it's impeachable?

>> he sort of punted howard on the impeachment idea there. i don't see that really happening. does the constitutional issue have any legs here? and beyond that, does the american public really paying attention to what we're doing in libya? >> well, a couple things. first of all, the ship has long since sailed on getting a congressional declaration of war. even when there are, you know, hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground. i mean, that hasn't happened in decades. and i think if congress wants to get that power back, this wasn't the case to do it on. did the obama administration cut things a little fine by saying, you know, we're not involved, quote, unquote, because we don't have any boots on the ground, we're just flying planes overhead and bombing selected sites? that was a little excruciating, a little too finely argued. but i don't think the american people were paying that much attention. as long as there weren't american troops dying there. on the question of whether libya

matters strategically, again, robin would know more than i. but if there's a possibility of a more friendly and cooperative regime that's sitting on top of one of the largest pools of oil in the world and wants to do business with the west, i think that's a very important strategic consideration for -- for not only the united states, but for europe. >> well, this story isn't over. always a pleasure to talk to you both. always interesting to hear what you have to say. thank you, howard fineman and robin wright. appreciate it very much. up next, rick perry versus rick perry. turns out the texas governor was against social security before he was for it. or something like that. we'll let him explain in the sideshow, coming up next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] this is the network. a network of possibilities.

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back to "hardball."

now for the sideshow. first up, fed up. that's the title of the book penned by gop candidate rick perry just last year covering topics including the alleged unconstitutionalty of social security. responding to some of the backlash from perry's position and likely anticipating a tad more to come, ray sullivan, perry's communications director, explained. fed up! is not meant to reflect the govrper's current views on how to fix the program. unfortunately, it seems that perry was unaware that his 9-month-old book had become obsolete when his campaign began earlier this month. let's listen to how he responded to a question from a voter on his plans for entitlement reforms at his first stop in iowa. have you read my book "fed up!" get a copy and read it. >> i guess the memo hasn't gone out yet. next up, excuses, excuses. that's all we're getting from florida republican senate candidate mike mccallister who

has come under fire for embellishing his record as a military serviceman. saying he had testified before congress on national security issues. not true. in his first public statement since the accusations have been made, mccallister said, if there was any misrepresentation, i accept responsibility. if? not quite sufficient to drop the issue entirely. te spite having creatively beefed up his resume, the candidates reasons for being unable to speak to reporters have been somewhat lame. last wednesday the candidate claimed he could not speak to a reporter because of poor cell service. yesterday his spokesperson had an ease ciy out ready to go whee rapid fire questioning began. let's listen. >> thank you. >> i believe -- >> the colonel has to use the restroom. >> get your hands off me if you don't mind. >> what's next? i lost my voice? the internet was down? dog ate my homework? i don't think they've heard the end of this one.

now for the big number. maybe not the best timing for a presidential candidate who just months ago bonded with voters by saying he was, quote, also unemployed. not to make plans for a massive upgrade to his $12 million home. that's right. mitt romney is planning a huge expansion for his already sprawling mansion in california. just how much larger will the finished product be? four times its current size. speaking for the candidate and his wife, a spokesman for romney explained that the home at its current size is, quote, inadequate for their needs. what are they doing? football games and thoroughbred racing? that's the big number. up next, presidential candidate rick perry reminds a lot of people of george bush. can we handle more bush-style swagger in this country? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. [ artis brown ] america is facing some tough challenges right now. two of the most important are energy security and economic growth. north america actually has

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i'm brian sullivan with your cnbc market wrap. stocks squeezing out some modest gains today. dow jones industrial average picked up 37 points, s&p 500 up fractionally, nasdaq tacking on 3 1/2 points. pretty quiet trading today all in all. especially looking back at some of the wild swings the past couple weeks. banks weighing on the markets a bit. after wells fargo cut its price target on bank of america citing market volatility and concerns about a possible double dip in the u.s. economy. goldman sachs ceo lloyd blankfein has reportedly hired -- goldman sachs telling cnbc it is common to hire a defense attorney when you know you're going to be investigated or at least questioned. all right. solid gains for hewlett-packard after announcing plans to kill its six-week-old touch pad

tablet. lowe's announcing a $5 billion stock buyback. that's cnbc first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball." welcome back to "hardball." okay. admit it. when you hear rick perry, you think george w. bush. that may be fine if you're a texas republican. but for a lot of people, it's causing a case of bush post-traumatic stress disorder. or bush ptsd. here's former bush strategist matthew dowd talking to george stephanopoulos earlier this month on the similarities between the two texas governors. >> now, part of his problem is he sounds a lot like george bush. he looks like the president, though, if you look at the picture. but he sounds and has similar mannerisms to george bush. i don't think that's as much of a problem in the republican primary. it could be a problem in the

general election. >> is the public ready for more bush-style texas swagger? joining me are wayne slater of the dallas morning news and msnbc political analyst richard wolffe. welcome to you both. wayne, so they walk alike. they talk alike. but are george w. bush and rick perry really that much alike? >> no. they're actually very different people. that caricature of george bush that we all participated in painting about a decade ago, the swaggering, drawling cowboy, is really something of a construction. it's really what rick perry is in real life. they're really not the same. perry is more conservative. he is more -- he is shrewder. he's the kind of person who is partisan whereas george bush, at least in texas, really viewed a bipartisan way of doing things. they are not the same person at all. perry is much more expressive about his religious faith.

in many, many ways they're different. but you're right. the problem is when people listen to them -- when people listen to them -- is he what? >> is he almost the authentic george w. bush? is he really what george w. bush pretended to be? >> this is exactly -- you've got it exactly right. this is the real thing. the real cowboy from a dryland farm on west texas. the suggestion is that he's the guy in the cowboy boots from texas. as you know, george bush was born in connecticut. so rick perry is the real thing. now, is that a good thing or not? might be a bad thing in some places. >> it could be. here's perry pronouncing a certain word. just the way his predecessor george bush did. let's listen. >> it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. >> i am a supporter of nuclear energy. >> what is it about nuclear and

nuclear? i don't get it with these guys. richard, an interesting thing. when perry got into the race, the people who jumped on him first and began pointing out problems with his record and things like that were not really the democrats so much. they were old bush hands. old w. bush hands and others associated with that family. what's responsible for the rancor between these two caps? >> a lot of rivalry there. it's not just the personal rivalry. that does take these kinds of tis puts a long way. the mccain folks still harbor resentment for bush folks because of texas rivalry among the advisers dating back many years. these things can linger. there's something else going on here which is a question of sincerity on both sides. wayne points out that, you know, to the perry folks or perry supporters bush was not the real thing. when you talk to bush folks about perry, they say the same about perry. they say he's not authentic. he flip-flops.

he used to be a democrat. he'll say anything, do anything. more than anything else they don't like his uncouthness. there's an unsubtlety, impoliteness that offends them. this has gone on for many years and is really quite deep and real. they just don't think -- if you think back when bush was running for president in 2000, he said he was a different kind of republican. you'll not hear anything similar or see anything similar from rick perry. that, to be honest, offends the bush people. >> it may be, richard, it may be better off, might have been better off for bush to be kind of a fake texan. because he sort of understood and appreciated, oh, the northeast. what about rick perry? does the kind of texas twang, swagger, boots with a suit kind of stuff that's really real, that's him all the way, is that going to play elsewhere in the country? >> well, i don't know how it plays it around the country, frankly. because if you look at where

former president bush stands in approval ratings, he's nowhere near good enough to want to evoke those memories. he's better than he used to be when he was in office. he's not like some other former presidents who are up in the 60s when it comes to approval ratings. president bush is somewhere in the 40s, not that far off the current president. it's not a great platform to be on. still too soon for the full rehab of president bush to come into effect. on top of that, there's the sort of personal problem that rick perry has. i once had the good fortune of watching perry try to schmooze one wayne slater. it was not a pretty thing. >> do you remember that, wayne? have you been schmoozed by rick perry? >> many times. >> and lived to talk about it. >> i lived to talk about it. one of the other things, i know one of the private conversations inside the perry camp before he did the rollout for the presidential race was that we, rick perry, this is from his political adviser, we, rick perry, have to present ourselves

as -- exactly as richard said. as a real republican that the bush people say he isn't. and that as someone who is like ronald reagan. someone who has bold colors and optimism. that was a conversation. one of the things about george bush, i covered him all his time here as governor, is they always resented that his father was overshadowed by the memory and the shadow of ronald reagan. and bush never was a reagan champion in the way that so many republicans are. and rick perry wants to be sort of the second coming of ronald reagan. >> does he actually ride horses, rick perry? >> oh, you bet. hey, we're from west texas. absolute. >> those cowboy boots actually go into stirrups, occasionally. unlike the first w. who was scared to death of horses as we know. this is really for both of you guys. wayne, you can start. rick perry would seem to have some real deficits when it comes to policy ideas.

he wants to do away with social security. thinks it's unconstitutional. apparently wants to do away with the federal income tax. which provides 80% of federal income. how is this a winning platform for a presidential candidate from any party? >> you know, it's interesting. you pointed out his book. when that book came out less than a year ago, perry said, this is evidence that i am not going to run for president because anybody who wanted to run for president wouldn't be saying social security is a ponzi scheme. we ought to change medicare. medicaid is bad. the voting rights act has questions about it. the fed is a problem and we ought to get rid of the income tax and all the rest of this -- this right wing diatribe. >> i didn't mean to interrupt. i wanted richard's take on this, too. is he just too conservative for america, richard? too far out there? >> i don't see how he can appeal to independent voters in the way

that bush did in 2000 with this kind of rhetoric and this kind of platform. you know, on top of that, this white house is going to be more than ready to point out that for a guy who ran against -- who runs against government, government spending, stimulus spending, he was more than happy to take those recovery act checks and spend them all on those government jobs that have helped his job creation numbers in texas. there is a reality and a rhetorical difference between the perry we've seen, the perry we're hearing, and the perry who spent that government money in texas. this white house is ready to jump on that one. >> net job increase in texas, it was all government jobs in the last three years. thank you, richard wolffe and wayne slater. appreciate you being here. up next, he is trailing in the polls. so republican presidential hopeful jon huntsman is attacking the gop front-runners. are we already seeing too much negativity on the gop campaign? this is "hardball" only on msnbc.

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right now, this country is

crying out for a sensible middle ground. this is a crepter right country. i'm a center right candidate. right now we've got people on the fringes. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was republican candidate jon huntsman making the case for why he should be president and in the course of that interview with abc news, he took a few shots at the gop front-runners. here he is on mitt romney. >> you know, if to talk about his inconsistencies and the changes on various issues, we would be here all afternoon. >> last week rick perry said it would be quote, almost treasonist for the fed treat to print more money. here is huntsman's take on that. >> i'm not sure that average vote ourt there will hear the traes onnist remark and say that sound like a presidential candidate. that sounds like someone who is serious on the issues. >> and michele bachmann said if she were president, gas prices would go below $2 per gallon. here is huntsman's reaction.

>> i just don't know what world that comment would come in. we live in the real world. it is grounded in reality. gas prices just aren't going to rebound like that. >> is this the way for huntsman to win the nomination. michael crowley is thyme magazine's deputy washington bureau chief and a political columnist for salon, steve. steve is huntsman saying things that could resonate with voters, even republican voters, or is this just a desperate candidate trying to claw his way out of single digits here in the polls? >> yeah, i think it is more of the second. the strategy that the huntsman people have been sort of following, the roadmap they think they are following at least is sort of what john mccain did when he ran for president the first time back in 2000 when he debuted the straight talk express. skipped iowa, went to new hampshire. he had everything on the record bull sessions with reporters. he broke through in new hampshire and for a few weeks he was really the biggest thing in

the political world. ity there was a lot that mccain had going for himself personally that huntsman lacks when you look at like his war story and everything. but i think the bigger issue is that republican party in 2011, 2012, is nowhere near where it was in 2000. jon huntsman sort of advertises himself there as a center right candidate. this is not a sent are right party. this is the party that nominated share on angle. christine o'donnell. joe miller. people like that for the united states senate last year. willingly lost winnable elections for the united states senate. because it is so dedicated it purity right now. so i look at huntsman's rhetoric and i say, he's got a shot at the democratic nom nangs but i don't think the republican one. >> a good point here. is huntsman, by seeming to be, by my eyes, at least the reasonable candidate among the republican nominees? has he essentially diskwulfide himself by that? >> well, look, i think that he

has no other choice at this point. he's just, you know, i mean, one of the problems here is that he set out promising to run a positive campaign and saying you don't have to run other people down when you run for president. i think what he found quickly was, that was the only way he could get attention. and now the only way anyone is noticing him is through his negative comments about the other candidates. everyone knew john mccain when he ran for president in 2000. he didn't have to introduce himself. i think huntsman has this trap where first of all, people don't have a good sense of who he is. and now to the extent they are learning about him, they see him sniping the a other republican candidates. so, you know, i think it is a little bit desperation. has he disqualified himself. there are fod rate voters in the republican party and you know, there are scenarios where the very conservative candidates splent splinter the tea party vote and the moderate can rise

to the top by default. maybe in new hampshire where the primary is open and you can have independent voters. it is not all religious fae partiers and the electorate in indiana caucuses. but it is real long shot to break his way and for him to succeed in other states like south carolina. >> i'm sure we could talk more about this thing, michael crowley and steve cornackie. when we return, let me talk about my thoughts. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. every time a local business opens its doors or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business -- it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities, so we're helping them with advice from local business experts and extending $18 billion in credit last year. that's how we're helping set opportunity in motion.

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science and the republican party. fshs two out of the three presidential canned dates generally considered front runners for republican party nomination believe the moon is made of green cheese. does that cause you concern? you'd think it would. after all, astronauts have been to the moon and have brought back rocks that seem utterly cheese free and no large space mice have been observed nibbling at moon craters. but rick perry and michele bachmann, front runners in question, don't believe nasa ever landed man on the moon. as for space mice, the gov more in congress think they may just be lurking out of sight on the moon's dark side. i'm kidding, of course. as far as i know, neither perry

nor bachmann think that of our moon sight. they would be laughed right out of congress. the moon made out of green cheese. that's way too crazy for the white house. that's out there where the busses don't stop. yeah, trouble is, bachmann and perry profess other beliefs juf as crazy. for instance, neither seem to ofrn the idea that the human species evolve over time. instead they pretend there is scientific controversy evolving evolution where none exists. both reject the consensus of over 90% many climate scientists worldwide that human activity is warming our plan tote dangerously disruptive levels. one of rick perry's first pronouncements upon entering the presidential process was to consider it a hoax p.m. bachmann seems to agree. that would be a massive global she raid