option because he has to grab the debate back. we have spent practically the whole year talking about spending cuts. and the republicans really have done a good job of controlling the debate. going big is the only way the president can bring the debate back. >> e.j., dionne, thank you. i asked are the republicans playing politics with libya? 90% said yes. that's "the ed show." i'm ed shultz. can you always listen to me on radio monday through friday and noon to 3:00 p.m. and follow me on twitter. let's play hardball. > good evening. i'm ron regan in here for chris matthews. gadhafi's rule so over. there are celebrations in the streets as gadhafi's forces

largely melted away and his four decade rule is certain to come to an end. we will have a report from lib why and look at what gadhafi's fall means for the region own the united states. in a rational universe, republicans would be praising president obama for taking the longview and aiding rebels but instead they are falling all over themselves to criticize him for not doing quote enough. no surprise there. in may, osama bin laden went down. now it looks like it is gadhafi's turn. the sour grapes republicans aside, doesn't president obama deserve a lot of the credit? plus, rick perry, admitted, if you close your eyes and listen

to the dropped g's, the act before you think rhetoric, you could swear george w. bush was doin, the talkin. whenever perry speaks a lot of progress ifs suffer from bush pbtsd. bush traumatic stress disorder. jon huntsman had at his rivals like rick perry for dismissing global warming and evolution. gop is a party with a fringe on top and huntsman says the right wing of the gop will find it elf unelectable. finally let me fin wisht republican party's attack on logic and science. we start with the situation in libya. richard engel is chief foreign affairs correspondent and he joins us on the phone from tripoli, libya. welcome richard, glad you could join us. >> reporter: thank you very much.

communications have been complicated today. but i am now in green square which ch is in the center of tripoli. there are some rebels here, perhaps a hundred or more. they brought their heavy weapons. i think in the course of our conversation you will hear them fire them in the air. they are still celebrating. there have been celebrations in the city all day. at the same time there is also fighting going on in this city. rebels hold about maybe 90% but that 10% they do not hold is gadhafi's compound. and don't think of gadhafi's compound like some sort of i havecation villa. this is a military base. gadhafi list lives on a military base. inside of it he has tanks and artillery and he is firing the tanks and artillery rounds into civilian areas here in tripoli obviously making people very nervous and they want to storm the complex but the rebels don't seem to have the firepower to get inside this military complex. >> gadhafi, is there a feeling he is in this compound in tripoli or is there a feeling he left or escaped somewhere?

>> well, logic would dictate that he is in the compound, else then why would people be fighting so hard to defend it? but logic is the only reason to base that upon because we have really have no idea where gadhafi is. no one in this country has any clue. people speculate that he left the country. that he is in the south. maybe he is in the compound. perhaps it is just some of his hold out troops who fear if they come out they will be lynched in the streets. we really don't know who is fighting in the compound or who is in the compound. and where gadhafi is.

but we do know that rockets and artillery are coming out of there heading into the city. >> what is your feeling richard, about the event you'll end game for gadhafi? is he the type of leader that will be offered asylum by some arab country perhaps? or is he going to end up on trial like mubarak or could it go worse for him and could he perhaps not survive? >> i think there is a strong likelihood he con survive this rebels want to go inside this compound tonight if they can and rn sack him and hang him in green square, which i'm look at right now. they want a nato airstrike on the compound to finish the situation once and for all and put an end to gadhafi. whether nato will do that is a different matter. nato shied away from directly targeting heads of state in the past and said it never targeted gadhafi. it was only targeting leadership

and things like that. i think there is a political decision that would have to be made to target the compound if the belief is that he is inside. >> are nato planes flying over the capitol or over libya right now? >> that i think is one of the reasons it's been so difficult to communicate today. we have been trying to broadcast and had our communications cut all of a sudden, and as we hear nato aircraft in the sky. so nato planes are certainly above tripoli. they are not right now. i think if they were, we would be having trouble talking on this phone. but we have been hearing them. we have not been seeing them. we have been feeling the affects of them and their jamming equipment. >> thank you, richard. nbc's richard engel. stay safe there in tripoli. it is a dicey situation. take care of yourself. thanks for joining us. >> thank you very much. >> the washington bureau chief for a news channel joins you now. welcome, thank you for joining us. >> thanks. >> what do you think happens next? who are the rebels that are taking or are going to take tripoli or appear to to about to take tripoli and what about democracy moving forward in that country? >> now that libyan nightmare is over, we have a group of libyans. some used to be part of the regime, including the transition council.

the prime minister and others. then you have another group of libyans, exiles who many of them are extremely talented. they went back to libya after the uprising began. so now, you have this group working together over the last six, seven months. that's the only silver lining in that long slot against gadhafi. these people began to discover each other, know each other, coordinate, collaborate. they present again, this is not the democratic formulative council but they do rep zen the various political in libya including islamists. so you have a group headed by a man who is highly respected. who spoke today from benghazi. now their biggest challenge is to restore order in tripoli and other cities. then to start it lay down, you know, a roadmap that would include writing constitution, preparing for elections. forming transitional government. and i think many of them, including mr. aglil, that it is

extremely precarious and difficult and today he said something interesting, even threatening to resign if there is lawless activity such as settling of scores or committing violence. so, that's a very encouraging sign. these are serious people and i think now they deserve and they will receive, the support of the neighboring countries, arab countries, african countries as well as the europeans and united states. >> president obama welcomed the news that tide turned in favor of the libyan opposition but warned there is still risks. let's listen to what he had to say. >> sure. >> for over four decades, libyan people have lived under the rule of the tyrant who denied them their most basic human rights. now the celebrations that we have seen in the streets of

libya shows that the pursuit of human dignity is far stronger than any dictator. i want to emphasize that this is not over yet. although it is clear that gadhafi's rule is over, he still has the opportunity to reduce further bloodshed by explicitly relinquishing power to the people of libya and calling for those forces that continue to fight to lay down their arms for the sake of libya. >> hashim, what in your mind should happen to colonel gadhafi now? should he be granted asylum? should he be put on trial? what do you think should happen? >> definitely no arab country will take him. he has been reviled by the arab world. in fact, alienated all of his neighbors. so exile is not in the cards. i don't s see, and i hope that libyans will not put him on trial in libya because they lack the infrastructure to guarantee a transparent fair trial. so the best option from my vantage point is to -- for him to be icc, international

community court. then this will give libyans at least the clans to focus on the real things. how to rebuild the country from scratch. you see, ron, like tunisia and egypt, the dictators fell but the structure of the country remained. libyans are going it start from scratch because gadhafi was the system. now it was a hollow system. he collapsed, the whole system is collapsed. it is functioning institutions. there are no voluntarily political social organizations. civil society was decimated. there is no legal structure. the physical structure was heavily damaged during the last six, seven months of fighting. so you have a country on paper who has lots of money in the banks in europe and united

states. they have oil reserves, but it will take a great deal of political organization and an orderly situation in the country to start the process of transition. this is what you call now transition blues. and transitions are going to be extremely difficult because have you a country where politics ceases to exist for 42 years. now libyans will discover the abcs of politics. how to engage in coalition. how to build institutions. how to have representation. then we will talk about democracy the way we know it in the west. essentially, they hope for basic respect with basic human rights and whether based on gender, minorities and what not, then, the other thing, also is that libya has some serious cleavages. political cleavages. you have the ethnic burr burr

and east and west, regional differences be ethnic differences and tribal differences. >> in other words a tough road ahead for them. >> absolutely. >> it is a lot easier to overthrow a government than actually build one from scratch. >> absolutely. >> thank you so much for joining us. as always, appreciate it. coming up, obama helping the rebels, so why aren't republicans giving him cred snit that's next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

just when we thought the 2012 presidential field was all set, more potential candidates say think are thinking seriously about running. republican strategist karl rove says he bets sarah palin will get into the race shortly after her visit to iowa this week. former new york governor george pa talky is quote, strongly considering joining the field. former new york mayor and presidential candidate rudy giuliani says he is seriously considering a run. oh, yes. and billionaire donald trump says he would seriously consider a run as an independent. but seriously, folks, one possible candidate made it clear today he is out, wisconsin

congressman, paul ryan. oh, darn. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." what dot latest developments in libya mean for president obama in he took heat earlier this year for how he handled the situation. does he now deserve credit for his policies. howard fineman is is editorial director and robin wright is from the u.s. institute of peace and woodrow wilson international center. she also authored a flu book called "rock the casbaah."

howard, no u.s. troops on the ground. no u.s. casualties that i'm aware of. is gadhafi fall a vindication for the strategy of leading from behind? >> in this case, yes. i think any fair observers and i've been talking to some of them today would have to say so. he was criticized for not putting more muscle american muscle in the the air or on the ground. but gadhafi's going, going, almost gone. he formed and became part of an international coalition. that took control of the skies

and took over why i i they will now take over the diplomatic situation if they can. i think in this case, his vision of careful multilateral diplomacy and careful pinpointed use of force, really did work. and he deserves credit for it. >> the prups republicans of course don't see it that way. they are knit picking the situation. do they risk looking peevish and small-minded as a result? >> i'm laughing. because if they ever worried about the risk of seeming peevish and small-minded, i haven't noticed it. if barack obama came out and said, you know, i really love

apple pie, they would say, apple pie is a socialist plot. you know, look, the fact is, as the situation was developing, some people such as senator john mccain, then and now, were saying we should have been more forceful. we should have had more planes in the skies and maybe even troops on the ground. at the same time on the other side of the republican coin there was sort of the new isolationist wing of the republican party saying, by what right are we involved here at all? there should be a declaration of war. what is interesting to me wrb ron, actually is that republican party is sort of mute in sense that presidential candidate aren't saying that much about this. the president got an equal. a noise sort of from the isolationist and hawks and republican party. and the american people aren't focused on it that much at all. >> republican senators john mccain as you mentioned, howard, and lindsay graham issued a statement last night that said americans can be proud of the role we played in helping defeat gadhafi. yes, they are still at it. >> rob -- >> excuse me. >> no, go ahead. what now, rob win, do we get out and get out quickly or do we linger there? do we leave our ships off the shores of tripoli? so that we can sort of monitor what happens next? >> the united states role will pron probably be to work through the international community. try to work through rae re leasing frozen assets. the united states has between 33 and $36 billion of gadhafi's money in u.s. banks. we can use that to help reconstruct. libya is one of the few places

in the arab world that actually has a prospect of improving sometime in the near future. it has a very small population. 6.5 million people. it has enormous oil wealth. in trying to address the economic and political needs of the people, it can deliver. it also had this unique experience of five months with a transitional national government that's been in place. that learned not only how to bring diverse political forcesing to but also how to collect garbage. so they have done what other countries haven't gone through. it had a bit of experience.

they have tried to form an alternative government. they are not going to have the military take over. this will be an entirely fresh start. so that's why libya is in some ways the most hopeful, even at the most, the most bloodiest. >> howard, if chaos ensues here, and we all know that some of the most difficult days for libya say head. it is one thing to run the ruler out of town and another thing it take over the government yourself and make it function. make it work for the people. if chaos ensues here, will obama take the blame for that at leaf in the republican's way of looking at things? >> probably. but i think he has to be in the fine work, i mean finally tuned work, of diplomatic and military management continuing on into the future. he can't quit paying attention.

and he has paid attention. but he has done in in a different kind of way from what we were used to during the bush years. that means if there is a big diplomatic in paris we have to be involved in that. as robin says, if there is all those frozen assets an they are repay tree oughtic back it lib why, we have to be there for that. this is by and for the libyans by the most part. we haven't been bombing the country into an oblivion. this isn't an american-led change p. robin knows far more than i. but the whole point here is this is something that is happening in libya with libyans and for libyans. we have to help assist but we can't be running the show. the president has it run the risk of it not being smooth but he has taken the risk so far. he will have to continue doing the same. >> robin, looking ahead, does the success in libya provide some sort of blueprint or could it provide a blueprint for other countries? we are looking at syria now and some people are talking about how we should go in and dot same thing we did, you know, to gadhafi, so assad. do you have any concern or are you aware of concerns in the region that now the u.s. has a great reason to just start playing openly playing the world's policeman? >> i think that most people in the region understand that libya was a unique case because of its own involvement in international terrorism. you know, it is shenanigans in the past. because of the instability of

its leader. this is the beginning of phase two of the arab uprisings. this is an area where you bring together the critical moment where it is proven that no amount of military force can quash a rebellion even by rag tag militiaman. in egypt, have you the trial of mubarak being held to account, to justice. and the international community from washington to tokyo, coming together saying the president of syria, it is time to go. this is the kind of shot of adrenaline that i think will inject a new momentum, enthusiasm for the fewer tour. i don't think the united states has any interest, nor saturday the national community, in replicating what we kid in libya in syria. even a u.s. role military in trying to back up the rebels on the ground. the sequence of events is very different. in libya you have the disintegration quickly into confrontation that looked a

little bit like a civil war. in syria, you still have the majority of people turning out week after week after week in peaceful civil disobedience. this is a different kind of dynamic. the u.s. and its allies have to stand back and let syria play out. syria is the next big case and arguably the most important country this right new. >> jon huntsman was asked about an libya in an event earlier in new hampshire. let's hear what he has to say. >> i think congress is in a mild uproar. [ inaudible ] >> i have a fundamental problem generally, beyond this decision. just with the decision that has been made to get involved in libya, in a tribal country, where we have no definable interest at stake. we have no exit strategy. look at afghanistan. you want to get involved in tribal government. let history be your guide [ inaudible ] >> we will let congress make that decision.

>> he sort of punted on the impeachment idea. i don't see that really happening. but does the constitutional issue have any legs here? and beyond that, does the american public really paying attention to what we are doing in libya? >> well, a couple things. first of all, the ship has long since sailed on getting a congressional declaration of war even when they are you know, hundreds of thousands of troops on the ground. i mean, that hasn't happened in decades. and i think if congress wants to get that power back, this wasn't the case to do it on. did the obama administration cut things by saying we're not involved quote unquote because we don't have any boots on the ground? we are just flying planes overhead and bombing selected sites. that was a little excruciating. little too finally argued. but i don't think the american people were paying that much attention as long as there weren't american troops dying

there. on the question of whether libya matters strategically, again, robin would know more than i. but if there is a possibility after more friendly and cooperative regime sitting on ton of one of the largest pools of oil in the world and wants to do business with the west, i think that's a very important strategic consideration for not only for the united states but for europe. >> well, this story isn't over. always a pleasure to talk to you both. interesting to hear what you have to say. thank you, appreciate it very much. up next, rick perry versus rick perry. turns out the texas governor was against social security before he was for it. or something like that. we will let him explain in the side show, coming up next. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. off ordinary can become romantic just like that. a spark might come from -- a touch, a glance -- it can come along anywhere, anytime. and when it does, men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use.

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back to "hardball." now for the sideshow. first up, fed up. that's the title of the book penned by gop candidate rick perry just last year covering topics including the alleged unconstitutionalty of social security. responding to some of the backlash from perry's position and likely anticipating a tad more to come, ray sullivan, perry's communications director, explained.

fed up! is not meant to reflect the govrper's current views on how to fix the program. unfortunately, it seems that perry was unaware that his 9-month-old book had become obsolete when his campaign began earlier this month. let's listen to how he responded to a question from a voter on his plans for entitlement reforms at his first stop in iowa. have you read my book "fed up!" get a copy and read it. >> i guess the memo hasn't gone out yet. next up, excuses, excuses. that's all we're getting from florida republican senate candidate mike mccallister who has come under fire for embellishing his record as a military serviceman. saying he had testified before congress on national security issues. not true. in his first public statement since the accusations have been made, mccallister said, if there was any misrepresentation, i accept responsibility. if? not quite sufficient to drop the issue entirely te spite having creatively beefed up his resume, the candidates reasons for being unable to speak to reporters have been somewhat lame. last wednesday the candidate

claimed he could not speak to a reporter because of poor cell service. yesterday his spokesperson had an easy out ready to go when the rapid fire questioning began. let's listen. >> thank you. >> i believe -- >> the colonel has to use the restroom. excuse me. >> get your hands off me if you don't mind. >> what's next? i lost my voice? the internet was down? dog ate my homework? i don't think they've heard the end of this one. now for the big number. maybe not the best timing for a presidential candidate who just months ago bonded with voters by saying he was, quote, also unemployed. not to make plans for a massive upgrade to his $12 million home. that's right. mitt romney is planning a huge expansion for his already sprawling mansion in california. just how much larger will the finished product be? four times its current size. speaking for the candidate and

his wife, a spokesman for romney explained that the home at its current size is, quote, inadequate for their needs. what are they doing? football games and thoroughbred racing? that's the big number. up next, presidential candidate rick perry reminds a lot of people of george bush. can we handle more bush-style swagger in this country? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

hello, here is what is happening. hurricane ilene is packing heavy rains and 115 mile an hour winds. it is still on track to hit florida and south carolina by the end of the week. the president of standard and poors credit rating agency is stepping down and will be replaced by a former citigroup

executive. >> prosecutors have asked a judge to dismiss all criminal charges. they say that accusers have lied about things big and small. and sentenced to life in prison for their role in a jaut hijacking that left four americans dead. >> the country got its first look at a four acre memorial on the national mall in washington d.c. to martin luther king jr. >> and a death to throat cancer at the age of 69. welcome back to "hardball." okay. admit it.

when you hear rick perry, you think george w. bush. that may be fine if you're a texas republican. but for a lot of people, it's causing a case of bush post-traumatic stress disorder. or bush ptsd. here's former bush strategist matthew dowd talking to george stephanopoulos earlier this month on the similarities between the two texas governors. >> now, part of his problem is he sounds a lot like george bush. he looks like the president, though, if you look at the picture. but he sounds and has similar mannerisms to george bush. i don't think that's as much of a problem in the republican

primary. it could be a problem in the general election. >> is the public ready for more bush-style texas swagger? joining me are wayne slater of the dallas morning news and msnbc political analyst richard wolffe. welcome to you both. wayne, so they walk alike. they talk alike. but are george w. bush and rick perry really that much alike? >> no. they're actually very different people. that caricature of george bush that we all participated in painting about a decade ago, the swaggering, drawling cowboy, is really something of a construction. it's really what rick perry is in real life. they're really not the same. perry is more conservative. he is more -- he is shrewder. he's the kind of person who is partisan whereas george bush, at least in texas, really viewed a bipartisan way of doing things. they are not the same person at all. perry is much more expressive about his religious faith. in many, many ways they're different. but you're right. the problem is when people listen to them -- when people listen to them -- is he what? >> is he almost the authentic george w. bush? is he really what george w. bush pretended to be? >> this is exactly -- you've got it exactly right. this is the real thing. the real cowboy from a dryland farm on west texas. the suggestion is that he's the

guy in the cowboy boots from texas. as you know, george bush was born in connecticut. so rick perry is the real thing. now, is that a good thing or not? might be a bad thing in some places. >> it could be. here's perry pronouncing a certain word. just the way his predecessor george bush did. let's listen. >> it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon. >> i am a supporter of nuclear energy. >> what is it about nuclear and nuclear? i don't get it with these guys. richard, an interesting thing. when perry got into the race, the people who jumped on him first and began pointing out problems with his record and things like that were not really the democrats so much.

they were old bush hands. old w. bush hands and others associated with that family. what's responsible for the rancor between these two caps? >> a lot of rivalry there. it's not just the personal rivalry. that does take these kinds of tis puts a long way. the mccain folks still harbor resentment for bush folks because of texas rivalry among the advisers dating back many years. these things can linger. there's something else going on here which is a question of sincerity on both sides. wayne points out that, you know, to the perry folks or perry supporters bush was not the real thing. when you talk to bush folks about perry, they say the same about perry. they say he's not authentic. he flip-flops. he used to be a democrat. he'll say anything, do anything. more than anything else they don't like his uncouthness. there's an unsubtlety, impoliteness that offends them. this has gone on for many years and is really quite deep and real. they just don't think -- if you think back when bush was running for president in 2000, he said he was a different kind of republican. you'll not hear anything similar

or see anything similar from rick perry. that, to be honest, offends the bush people. >> it may be, richard, it may be better off, might have been better off for bush to be kind of a fake texan. because he sort of understood and appreciated, oh, the northeast. what about rick perry? does the kind of texas twang, swagger, boots with a suit kind of stuff that's really real, that's him all the way, is that going to play elsewhere in the country? >> well, i don't know how it plays it around the country, frankly. because if you look at where former president bush stands in approval ratings, he's nowhere near good enough to want to evoke those memories. he's better than he used to be when he was in office. he's not like some other former

presidents who are up in the 60s when it comes to approval ratings. president bush is somewhere in the 40s, not that far off the current president. it's not a great platform to be on. still too soon for the full rehab of president bush to come into effect. on top of that, there's the sort of personal problem that rick perry has. i once had the good fortune of watching perry try to schmooze one wayne slater. it was not a pretty thing. >> do you remember that, wayne? have you been schmoozed by rick perry? >> many times. >> and lived to talk about it. >> i lived to talk about it. one of the other things, i know one of the private conversations inside the perry camp before he did the rollout for the presidential race was that we, rick perry, this is from his political adviser, we, rick perry, have to present ourselves as -- exactly as richard said. as a real republican that the bush people say he isn't. and that as someone who is like ronald reagan. someone who has bold colors and

optimism. that was a conversation. one of the things about george bush, i covered him all his time here as governor, is they always resented that his father was overshadowed by the memory and the shadow of ronald reagan. and bush never was a reagan champion in the way that so many republicans are. and rick perry wants to be sort of the second coming of ronald reagan. >> does he actually ride horses, rick perry? >> oh, you bet. hey, we're from west texas. absolute. >> those cowboy boots actually go into stirrups, occasionally. unlike the first w. who was scared to death of horses as we know. this is really for both of you guys. wayne, you can start. rick perry would seem to have some real deficits when it comes to policy ideas. he wants to do away with social security. thinks it's unconstitutional. apparently wants to do away with the federal income tax. which provides 80% of federal income. how is this a winning platform for a presidential candidate from any party? >> you know, it's interesting. you pointed out his book. when that book came out less than a year ago, perry said, this is evidence that i am not going to run for president

because anybody who wanted to run for president wouldn't be saying social security is a ponzi scheme. we ought to change medicare. medicaid is bad. the voting rights act has questions about it. the fed is a problem and we ought to get rid of the income tax and all the rest of this -- this right wing diatribe. >> i didn't mean to interrupt. i wanted richard's take on this, too. is he just too conservative for america, richard? too far out there? >> i don't see how he can appeal to independent voters in the way that bush did in 2000 with this kind of rhetoric and this kind of platform. you know, on top of that, this

white house is going to be more than ready to point out that for a guy who ran against -- who runs against government, government spending, stimulus spending, he was more than happy to take those recovery act checks and spend them all on those government jobs that have helped his job creation numbers in texas. there is a reality and a rhetorical difference between the perry we've seen, the perry we're hearing, and the perry who spent that government money in texas. this white house is ready to jump on that one.

>> net job increase in texas, it was all government jobs in the last three years. thank you, richard wolffe and wayne slater. appreciate you being here. up next, he is trailing in the polls. so republican presidential hopeful jon huntsman is

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it's pro-cool technology releases armies of snowmen masseuse, who cuddle up with your soreness and give out polar bear hugs. technology. [ male announcer ] new bengay cold therapy. the same technology used by physical therapists. go to bengay.com for a 5-dollar coupon. right now, this country is crying out for a sensible middle ground. this is a crepter right country. i'm a center right candidate. right now we've got people on the fringes. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was republican candidate jon huntsman making the case for why he should be president and in the course of that interview with abc news, he took a few shots at the gop front-runners. here he is on mitt romney. >> you know, if we were to talk about his inconsistencies and

the changes on various issues, we'd be here all afternoon. >> last week, rick perry said it would be quote almost treasonist for the fed chief to print more money. here is huntsman's take on that. >> i'm not sure that average voter out there is going to hear that treasonist remark and say, that sounds like a presidential candidate. that sounds like someone who is serious on issues. >> and michele bachmann said if she were president, gas prices would go below $2 per gallon. here's huntsman's reaction. >> i just -- i just don't know what world that comment would come from. you know, we live in the real world. it's grounded in reality and gas prices juf aren't going to rebound like that. >> is this the way for huntsman

to win the nomination? michael crowley, "time" magazine deputy bureau chief and welcome to you both. steve, is huntsman saying things that could resinate with voters, even republican voters, or is this just a desperate candidate who's trying to claw his way out of single digits here in the polls? >> i think it's more of the second. the strategy the huntsman people are following, the road map they think they are following is what john mccain did when he ran for president the first time in 2000. he skipped iowa, he went to new hampshire, had everything on the record bull sessions with reporters and broke through in new hampshire and for a few

weeks was the biggest thing in the political world. i think there was a lot mccain had going for himself personally that huntsman lacks, his war story and everything, but the big issue is nowhere near where it was in 2000. jon huntsman sort of advertises himself there as a center right candidate. this is not a center right party, this is the party that nominated sharon engle, christine o'donnell, joe miller, people like that for the united states senate last year, willingly lost seats because it's so dedicated to purity right now. he's got a shot at the democratic nomination, but i don't think the republican one. >> michael, steve makes a good point here. is huntsman by seeming to be, to my eyes, at least, the most reasonable candidate among the republican nominees, has he disqualified himself by that? >> look, he has no other choice at this point. he's just, you know, one of the problems here is that he set out promising to run a positive campaign and saying you don't

have to run other people down when you run for president. i think what he found pretty quickly was that was the only way he could get attention, and now the only way anyone is noticing him is through his negative comments about the other candidates. everyone knew john mccain when he ran for president in 2000, he didn't have to introduce himself. huntsman has this trap where first of all, people don't have a good sense where he is. now they are learning about him and see him sniping at other republican candidates, so, you know, i think it is a little bit of desperation. has he disqualified himself, there are moderate voters in the republican party, and, you know, there are scenarios where the very conservative candidates splinter the conservative vote, the tea party vote, and a moderate could rise to the top by default. you know, maybe in new hampshire where that primary is open and you can have independent voters 1 going to be all religious conservatives and tea party is going to make up a lot of the electorate, but it's a real long shot for it to break his way and for him to succeed in south carolina, for instance. >> we have to leave it there, thank you. when we return, let me finish with my thoughts on science and the republican party. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

let me finish tonight with science and the republican party. two out of the three presidential candidates generally considered front runners for the republican party nomination believe the moon is made of green cheese. does that cause you concern?

you'd think it would. after all, astronauts have been to the moon and brought back m rocks that seem utterly cheese-free. but rick perry and michele bachmann, the front runners in question don't believe nasa ever landed men on the moon. as for space mice, the governor and congresswoman think they may be lurking out of sight on the moon's dark side. i'm kidding, of course, as far as i know neither perry or bachmann harbors thoughts about our planet's satellite. if they did, they'd be laughed right out of any presidential contest, wouldn't they? moon made out of cheese, nasa landings faked, that's way too crazy for the white house, right? that's where the buses don't stop. trouble is, both bachmann and perry profess other believes just as crazy. for instance, neither seems to accept charles darwin's idea that species, including the human species, evolve over time. instead, they pretend there's a

scientific controversy involving evolution where none exists. both also reject the consensus of over 90% of climate scientists worldwide that human activity is warming our planet to dangerously disruptive levels. one of rick perry's first announcements upon entering the presidential contest was to declare any such scientific consensus a hoax. bachmann seems to agree. that would be a massive global charade involving not just the world's scientists, but the governments of virtually every nation as well. if they wanted to be taken the least bit seriously, anyone making such extraordinary claims would have to back it up with an extraordinarily compelling evidence, wouldn't they? but perry and bachmann offer no such evidence, not a shred, any rational person would consider