catching a wave. getting customers engaged by having them build their own surfboards. and the man who gave us red mango gives us his sweet secret to success. that and more coming up next on "your business."

small businesses are revitalizing the economy. and american express open is here to help. that's why we're proud to present "your business" on msnbc. ♪ hi there, everyone. i'm j.j. ramberg, and welcome to "your business," where we give you tips and advice to help your business grow. the nation's economic and unemployment troubles continue and, as long as consumers aren't spending, small business owners can't hire. nbc's john yang reports. >> reporter: the more than 66,000 new job cuts announced in july were the most layoffs since march 2010 when the impact of the recession was hitting full force. >> these big layoffs are putting more fear into everybody.

that's reducing job security, consumer confidence, and that's not good for the economy. >> did you need some help, sir? >> reporter: things aren't much better at small businesses like brownies hardware in san francisco. it survived the earthquake and fire but second generation owner steve cornell worries about surviving this economy. >> sometimes i lose sleep at night wondering will i be able to fund my payroll tomorrow. i don't want one of those checks to bounce. >> reporter: a new survey out from national small business administration found that 88% of business owners pekt the economy to be flat or in a recession over the next 12 months. only 29% said they expect to hire in that time. >> because they're not hiring, individuals don't see the chances for them to get jobs in the future, so they're not spending. >> i want to delve a little deeper into the mood of small business owners. joining me here on the set is gene marks. he actually has a really interesting take in his small business column for "the new york times." he is president of the marks

group. yannic silver is the founder of internet lifestyle.com and steven corn sl the owner of brownies hardway store in san francisco who we profiled here on "your business" back in 2006. nice to see you again. >> nice to see you, too. >> back then we were talking about health care and how you provided health care benefits for your employees. what's your outlook right now? are things really hard for you? >> i don't think they're hard, but they certainly are flat. you have to look a lot more to where i can make some more money. >> and are you finding new places or is that tricky as well? >> not so much finding new places but relooking at the places that we've always done and sort of mining those a little bit more. >> gene, so in your article, you basically said times like these make you focus on what's important. >> yeah, they do. nowadays, you talk about the economic strengths that are here. i mention in my "new york times" column -- it was actually a blog written by somebody else who

brought up a really good point saying that when cash is tight, we're all, as business owner, really thinking harder about where we're going to spend our money. there is a theory that says whether cash is tight or not tight, no matter how well you're doing, you should always be thinking like you're lean and mean as to where you're spending your money. some people believe even though this is tough times, it is challenging the best of us to make sure we're managing our money the best way. >> it resonated with me because i worked for a start-up in 1998 where people had venture capital. and people wasted it. but even beyond that which is just sort of silly, just on marketing. let me get a big splashy tv campaign and they didn't care whether it would work or not. now they're being a lot smarter. yannic, you work with small business owners. what do they think? >> almost like the best of times and the worst of times because we have people doing really well in different thing, then you have people that are starting to struggle. the difference is in the value

creation and where you can be unique. steve has this unique story or unique background, they can compete against home depot and lowe's by enhancing what they're unique at. doing the things that home depot or lowe's won't do. three ways to build a business, get new customers, get them to spend more. >> i heard complaints from so many people that people -- and we just saw in it the piece. customers just aren't spending money. is that what you're seeing? >> they're not spending as much as they used to, but we can look for the ones who do spend it. my business depends on turnover, when people leave their apartments, move out, somebody has to fix that apartment up. new people want to move back in and they want to change it to what they want. if i focus on looking for those people and those buildings, then i can find more customers. >> is there one particular thing about the economy right now that concerns you the most?

>> not hiring. other businesses aren't hiring people, we don't get as much turnover in the apartments around us. and that's a problem. >> if i can just add, a few weeks ago i wrote a column in "forbes." we're at 9.2% unemployment now. i believe microsoft and all other technology companies like that, not that they're doing anything bad. but technology today is making business owners that much more effective and productive. our gross domestic product right now, j.j., is higher than it was before the recession, yet we have 7.5 million less people employed than before the recession. why is that? because a lot of businesses are getting a lot more stuff done with a lot less people. that's just a reality right now. >> the kaufman foundation actually released a report that reflects this reality right now, too. so what can we do? if you guys -- go talk to congress, talk to president obama. what would you say? what would you ask for?

>> exactly what gene talked about was that the leverage here gives small business owners a distinct advantage. if people are looking to get hired, they need to be value enhancers. they need to go where they can increase revenue. ev anything they can do that will help a business owner get one, two, three times multiple from hiring them. they'll get hired. if they're not a value creator, they won't get hired. >> if you hire somebody, we'll give you this tax incentive. >> they're not stupid. >> we're not going to hire people if we don't make money off of them. if you have a skill set, i'll hire you to do that, not because the government is offering me a tax rebate to do it. >> thank you so much. so great to see you a couple of years later. good luck with your business and getting your customers to spend more. >> thank you. >> thank you. a personalized experience.

that's what two entrepreneurs hope to give every customer who buys one of their wooden surfboards. these small business owners welcome orders overthe phone or online they'd rather have a more intimate connection with their clients. that's why they offer their fellow surfers to come to the company and build their own surfboards, classroom style. ♪ >> this never gets old. i mean, it's really, really exciting. >> our mission is to share this with people who are deserving of it. >> we're trying to not just offer a product, but we're trying to, you know, give people an experience. >> mike and brad run their business wa purpose, and they want their customers to know it's personal. >> it's an honor, really, to hear from people who have said they've followed us for a year, two years, three years and they finally saved up enough money to come and do this. >> the owners of grain surfboards in maine take an open door policy to their sales.

>> we're willing to talk to them and show them around and spend time with me and explain that we really want to share this. >> this farm, which doubles as grain's headquarter, may not seem like the ideal setting for a surfboard company. >> there's cows out there, pigs in the barn and chickens in the chicken yard and dogs running around. >> but that doesn't stop mike and brad from giving surfers the chance to temporarily trade in their wetsuits and water to become their students. >> everybody built a surfboard before there was a surf industry. >> these entrepreneurs transform into teachers to share their passion with their customer. they come from around the world to immerse themselves in grain surfboards. >> seven days. each person within a class build theirs own board from start to finish. you can get the satisfaction of building a board with your own two hands that you'll enjoy that

much more because you're connected to it. >> all are from locally harvested trees. doing things like making sure as little wood is wasted as possible. once the students pick from one of grain's 19 designs, their education begins. >> we'll talk about the big picture of what we're trying to do that week, sketch it out. answer as many questions as we can. from that point, you know, most of the time people are really working on their own. >> there's a certain independence for the gluing, sanding of surfboards. but they're never far. >> we are milling around but we leave people to work on their own and try to figure things out. we don't want to be standing there telling them how to do things. part of the idea is to discover something about themselves. >> if they want more help, we give them more help but we try to leave them on their own. we can watch and witness it, then talk about it at lunch. mark carter is taking his first class at grain.

>> when you take the class, you talk about getting stoked. they're both supereasy to talk to, very approachable. if you make a mistake, it's kind of like, no big deal. it's wood. having them here is a huge benefit. >> bob is actually building his seventh board. >> they take the time to help you out. if you have a question, the customer's number one with them. i made my last board, and they keep seeing me back here again and again. >> it may be tough for some entrepreneurs to have their customers so close for so long, mike and brad say it's one of the best parts of their job. >> if we wanted to just make money on people and get them a product and send them an invoice and send them out the door, they wouldn't come here. we want to do this for people because it's at the heart of what we think is fantastic about this. is this idea of building your own. >> customers can still reap the benefits of grain's personal

service even if they don't take a class. if customers buy a board and have grain build it for them, brad and mike still include them in the design process. many surfers opt to buy kits complete with supplies to build their surfboards at home. even then the experience is as personal as possible. >> people do need help. we're literally here 16 hours a day answering the phone, answering e-mail. people are texting us, sending us videos of their boards. they're not doing it monday to friday, 9 to 5. they're doing it on weekends. that's when we have to be available. >> grain has increased the number of classes offered and, once again, customers have responded. >> people who normally might have vacationed somewhere exotic are coming here, perhaps and building a board and having an experience that's more memorable and seems to have more actual value for their investment in a sense. they leave here with a surfboard. >> while grain is still

definitely still a business, mike and brad want their customers to know it is more than just about money. it's about an experience, a very personal one, that they want to continue to share with each and every person. >> it's a lifestyle as much as a business. you can make a life that you can really feel is rewarding. we built this business and continue to build this business around a set of values that we have about how we want to live and how we want to live in the world. >> we don't want people to build boards that won't surf well and won't look well. it's important to us to keep them happy and keep them psyched. >> looking to create a custom designed website for your small business in here now are five web services that will help you build a professional website without breaking the bank courtesy of matchables. squarespace is a website building where you can create your website using their available theme or create and customize a site from scrap.

it ranges from $12 to $36 a month. weebly is entirely free. you can use your own domain name and use one of five customizable theme. and jigsy has a powerful blogging platform and utilizes a widget based system for digital functionality. snapages is a dragon builder site by those of you intimidated by the technical stuff. plans range from free to $30 a month. finally yola has many customization options and themes. their premier plan costs about $5,000 a your and provide provides one on one consultation with professional designers. advice on how to be an effective leader. and daniel kim, the man who brought red mango to the united states has cool things to tell us about business success in this week's learning from the pros.

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yogurt, then surely you've heard of red mango. this south korean company opened its first u.s. store in los angeles in 2007 to great fanfare. now, there are more than 100 stores in 25 states and they're not done growing yet. daniel kim is the man behind the success. and he's taken his brand beyond yogurt to smoothies, lip balm and more. we found out his tips for entrepreneurial success. ♪ can't you see ♪ because it's cool >> i think a lot of people make the mistake of trying to invent something that hasn't been invented before, but there are so many opportunity out there for improvement. frozen yogurt and smoothies have been around for a long time. there's no reason to enter this business. but if there's an opportunity to make it better, go for it.

we made it better by making it healthier and taste better and give customers the better social experience that they weren't having in the past. ♪ don't worry baby >> don't worry about your competition too much. when i first started the company, i was always looking at what other people were doing, where they were opening stores, what kind of products they have, how many stores they had. i was trying to compete with them on these factors. we used to open near our competitors or be reactive to where they were open and be there for the sake of being there. we don't do that any more. we look at the customer's perspective. do they really need two frozen yogurt shops on the same corner? no. that's not healthy. hire people who are smarter than you is a mantra that i believe in. there's marketing, there's franchising, there's real estate. and the big mistake you can make is to think that you can do all the above and you can't. so early on, i didn't do this because of my youth or i just

didn't have any experience or expertise to really swallow my pride at that time. now i hire people who know how to do things better in an area tra i that i don't have expertise in ♪ control >> when you came up, we were completely full serve, you would come up and we'd prepare the yogurt for you. one thing i noticed was the growing demand from customers to yogurt that you can do and prepare yourself and weigh and pay by how much you got. we initially didn't understand how to adapt the whole soft serve motto to allowing red mango to develop. but as we went out into the different markets, customers wanted that control. by listening to the customer and being adaptive and just reactive to this opportunity, we now have both full serve and self-serve and customers love us for that.

>> time now to answer a some of your business questions. gene and yanik are with us once again. dane write, i do work for large corporations. some aren't paying in a timely manner. being a small business, i can't afford to hold on to paper that long. i'm looking into hiring a collection agency. are there alternatives that i may try? there are. i think collection agencies are the last resort. >> big guy with a baseball bat. >> so what can you do? >> many large corporations are going to electronic payment. so that's definitely an option to do that. i can't understand any business nowadays that don't take credit cards. when you talk about collecting your money. if there are fees involved, you build that into your cost structure. if a company is willing to pay you by credit card, take credit cards. >> we get these questions a lot by people getting paid by other small businesses. that's because they don't have the money themselves. in this case, it sounds like the

companies have the money they're just not giving it up. >> large companies will take as long as they want to pay you if you let them. i am a big believer in you set the rules for your business and other companies will fall in line with the rules you set. look, we get paid 50% ahead of time and get paid on this delivery point, then do that. the bigger question here is what are you doing that's not enhancing -- you're not being a unique experience, a unique entity for that company that if they might think that you're commodity based and you're trying to hold on and if you're worried about that they won't pay you or trying to get money in advance, then there's something wrong there. >> do you think also sometimes you just get lost in the fray. >> do you. >> and maybe you just need to call them. >> you know what happens? you don't call them after. you call them before. because it's unbelievable if your invoice gets stoent the wrong lady named bet ne the wrong building and you don't find that out till 60 days after

when they're not paying you. the call needs to be done, who am i sending this to? you make a proactive call. is this in your system. >> this is from scott. how do i break into the corporate supply chain? you're laughing. i'm going to let you start, though, yanik? >> i'm a big believer in piggy backing. if you don't have the man power to go out there and go talk to the people that are decisionmakers, somebody else is already in there in that office has relationships and is doing it in a great way. go find those people and piggy back either with their sales reps on the side or work deals with other companies on a work share basis. piggyback in there on somebody else who is already doing it. >> we get that advice for government contracts. >> right. >> instead of figuring it out. >> why reinvent the wheel? somebody else has figured that out and is doing it well. >> in 2011, it's still who you

know. even with big corporations and even now with all the technology that's out there. so find out people that work in that area and know your connections. a great service. people on linkedin. >> i use that all the time. >> a question from brian. we own an art restoration company. besides our website, we do print advertising in specialty magazines, have videos on youtube. other than walking around wearing a sandwich board and ringing a bell what else is there to do. >> art restoration, something i care less about, because i know nothing about art. when you talk about somebody that knows something as a specialist like that, what you're doing is good. he needs to identify himself and separate himself as a specialist, though. he should be writing some more. if he likes to speak he should be out there public speaking. there are trade magazines, things written in the industry. how does he make himself into an

expert, someone people want to go to because of his opinion because they go to a lecture on something he's talking about. differentiate yourself, become an expert and try to make yourself more of a professional in that area. >> something like sgos, search optimistation. >> it would be easy because he's got such a specialty, a niche that he can go for the specific key word. not just art restoration, but target specific artists, specific eras of art and artwork and dig in deep and make that work. it would be very cost effective. >> thank you for ta advice. if any of you have a question for our experts go to openforum.com/yourbusiness. there just hit the "ask the show" link to submit a question for our panel. the website is openforum.com/yourbusiness. you can e-mail us your questions

or comments. yourbusiness@msnbc.com. as we have all experienced, small business owners have a problem to deal with. my next guest says that the people who are successful, though, don't necessarily know the answer to all their issues but they know what questions to ask. robert kaplan is the professor of management practice at the harvard business school. he's also author of the new book "what to ask of the person in the mirror." great to see you, rob. >> great to see you, j.j. >> we were talking about when you are a small business person -- and i hear this a lot from people i talk to -- it's lonely. the term it's lonely at the top. but even if you're at the top of four people, it's lonely. >> i find that small business leaders feel more alone than ceos of big companies. and i've dealt with both. the reason for that is they often built that business themselves. it may be part of a family where they don't think they can confide in other family members.

when they come to harvard, they're anxious to be able to have someone to talk to. i advise them to build a support group because you do get very isolated. >> you say questions to ask yourself in the mirror. the first one is what is your vision for your business. now, presumably you had a vision for your business when you started your business or became the head of it. how often do you need to keep asking yourself that. >> people think when i say vision, touchy feely. it is what is your distinctive confidence and how do you add value to customers. you need to ask it every six months or a year, but when the environment is changing like it is now, you probably need to ask it more frequently. any time your customers change and the world change, you need to make sure your value proposition that you're thinking about it. and that's what i mean by your vision. >> yeah, and that's hard, too, because often you get stuck in

this is what my business does and you don't want to pay attention to the outside factors like the economy. >> it's uncomfortable. i prefer to be in a rhythm. i like the way things are set up. i don't want to change it. emotionally very difficult to face the fact you got to revisit it. >> what are your top three priorities to get to that vision? >> right. so if you got a vision, there are three -- what are the three most important tasks you must do well? normally when you talk to a small business person, they may have a clear vision, but they haven't actually thought about the three or four tasks that you do well. i'm working 80 hours a week. my husband's ready to kill me. what are the three or four most important things you must do, then the third question, do you match your time with those priorities? and often when a business is struggling, they're not clear on their top priorities or they are but they're not matching their time with them. and they've got to get that discipline.

i try to help them ask the question so they can focus on that. >> you know what's so funny about these at least so far, if you said this to someone, they would probably say, of course, i know to do that. but the number of people who actually do it very low. >> that's why i suggest when i started a support group, you need to have someone ask you this or you need to ask. i sit with a business leader and i ask them a question, i don't need to say another word. because the light goes on in their head, they go, oh. so i find the question is more important than the answer. >> then the last point you say, too, is find who are your key lieutenants. >> you need to list -- i'll say to somebody, you need to start delegating the things that are not your priorities. they start to realize, i don't think i can. by the way, i don't even have time to think about my vision and priorities, i'm too busy. then we start talking about who their direct reports are. i say to them, if you have five direct reports, are they the right people. now that's a very emotional

question and a tough one, particularly if they're people who have been with you all these years. but you have to help them, coach them or supplement them, but you have to face it or else it's very difficult to drive your business. >> rob, thank you. i think we get so in the weeds running our own business that we often forget to step back and do these big picture things we need to do to survive. good luck with your book. >> the book will help people. feedback is crucial for small businesses looking to grow. and if you're looking for a way to get immediate customer responses, our website of the week may come in handy. boxwire.com is an online suggestion box for service-based businesses. the site allows customers to anonymously submit feedback via boxwire.com or a mobile device. it collects these. business owners can analyze the trends. it range from $19 to $29 a

month. to learn more about today's show, just click on our website. it's open forum.com/your business. you'll find all of today's segments plus web exclusive content with more information to help your information grow. and don't forget to become a fan of the show on facebook. we love getting your feedback. you can follow us on twitter. next week we meet the owners of a custom playground company that were hit hard by the recession. >> the first three years that we were in business, we worked summer and winter just straight through the year. and then we had a winter where we went four months without a phone call. >> see how our experts give this business a boost with some makeover magic. till then i'm j.j. ramberg. remember, we make your business our business.