where you book matters. expedia. tim carter, what are e-mails. what are they saying. >> a gas leak in my apartment. >> that's terrible. get out at once. also, sometimes you have to spring a gas leak. one more. >> i'm home after surgery. distracted by willie geist. >> you are sweet. i have problems myself. broken tailbone.

elizabeth sent me this this morning. this is a cushie. a tush cush. i have the best viewers in television. thank you. "morning joe" starts right now. >> it is a ponzi scheme to tell our kids that are 25 or 30 years old today you are paying into a program that is going to be there. anybody for the status quo with social security today is involved with a monstrous lie to our kids. it's not right. >> our nominee has to be someone who isn't committed to abolishing social security but saving social security. we have always had a recognition to care for those in need. our seniors have the need. >> you cannot keep it in place and call it anything other than a ponzi scheme. that is what it is.

americans know that. regardless of what anyone says, no it's not, maybe it's time to have provocative language in this country. >> well then. good morning, everyone. >> okay. go ahead. >> provoke, provoke. good morning, everyone, it is thursday, september 8th. welcome to "morning joe." we have mike barnicle. we have msnbc political analyst and visiting professor at nyu, harold ford, jr. in los angeles, senior political analyst mark halperin. >> this is what i love about america so much. >> tell me. >> you know, in times of trouble -- >> yes, yes. >> feeling loved. >> yes. >> in times of trouble, it's when americans reach out. i had so many people come up and ask, joe, are we going to be okay. i say yeah. you know why i know we're going to be okay?

you cannot measure what america has, my friends. you can't measure the number at look at the gross domestic problem. you can't look at inflation. don't go to chicago and look at the xhod ties. what makes america great is right here. one of our own, one of our own is having a difficult time. >> yes, he is. >> praise jesus, he's come through again, america. let's go to his desk, willie geist. americans when you were broke back americans reached out and americans are once again coming through with the can do spirit. >> to those, joe, who say the sun is setting on the americans, i offer you this. out of the goodness of her heart, a viewer named elizabeth heard of my troubles and said

sit on this and all your cares will go away. >> it's a tush cushion of some kind. >> you have been bombarded with -- >> is it better than -- >> it's better than the inflatable, actually. >> well now. >> this reminds me of world war ii. women in the factories ripping up railroad tracks. >> whatever it takes. >> whatever it takes. >> speaking about the debate, let's go to mark halperin who seems to be in one piece after last night's debate. rick perry didn't accidentally try to shoot a coyote. >> last night, very interesting. i have to say, well i'm not going to say what most people are saying. i'm going to ask you what you are saying. who won the debate? >> i think mitt romney was the strongest. this is a two-person race. rick perry more than surprised.

he was aggressive with romney. romney, i thought, wasn't quite flawless but very strong. after what perry did on social security, romney went into it with pressure on him. i thought he did quite well. >> what about rick perry? everybody looking at perry, i thought he was a bit clunky. if you want social security for tens of millions of americans you present a cure. we never heard that. >> it's not going to be there. >> present a cure and reassure people that are recipients of social security the program will be there for you. he said that. he didn't balance it the way you should. i'm surprised, he could have not

backed off. given social security's condition today, it is a ponzi scheme. it's what a lot of americans think. fail to reassure what's going to turn a lot of heads. the romney campaign could not have been clearer on the record, up front, they think this is the beginning of the end of rick perry's campaign. >> he's trying to play to a very small base who disagree with ronald reagan who said in 1983 we have to ensure that social security continues for generations to come. mike barnicle, what was your take on the debate? who won? who lost? >> at the end of the evening, it occurred to me, if you were watching it for the first time and in your mind you were thinking which of these candidates appearing on tv could be the president of the united states and you were trying to read into your own comfort level, it would be romney. by far. >> by a long shot.

>> no one else on the stage. it is a two-person ratice, i age with mark. huntsman for 2016. >> you were impressed by huntsman as well? >> i wasn't impressed. i was fairly impressed by him. >> you couldn't hear his plate chattering this time. >> come on. >> rick perry's problem, unfortunately for rick perry, the clip ponzi scheme in this age, that's the clip. that's the clip that is used. >> again, they wanted that. >> it's okay, though. mark halperin said it's okay to say social security is a ponzi scheme the way it's set up today. that said, we can take steps moving forward to ensure this generation and next generation know that social security will be there for them and their parents and grandparents. he's not doing that now because he wants to send a message to a

small group of people that he wants to get rid of social security. >> hifs sticking to what was in his book. it's a severe statement with no follow up. >> is it fair to say he was not nimble on his feet? is that fair to say? >> yes. >> he had his feet in cement. he was spitting out -- >> his attacks on romney, he tried to go there. romney was ready on the issue of job creation. they both went after their own records. you thought he might have gotten mitt romney on this, he fired back without missing a beat. take a listen. >> states are different. texas is a great state. texas has zero income tax. texas has a right to work state. a republican legislature. a republican supreme court. texas has a lot of oil and gas in the ground. those are wonderful things. governor perry doesn't believe he created those things. if he did, it would be like al

gore saying he created the internet. >> george bush created jobs at a faster rate than you did, governor. >> here we go. >> what was your take away? >> similar to what's been said around the table. last night, rick perry questioned global warming. the comment about ben bernanke. >> treasonous acts. people would treat him poorly if you come to texas. couple that last night with how romney stood firm. the fact he stood there and took it all made him look far more presidential. finally, huntsman looked good. this is mitt romney's race now. he needed this challenge. perry, they all say he's a tenacious, audacious tough campaigner. he's going to have to be to get

over last night's performance. >> you know, it's a great point, which leads to the question, mark halperin, who were his national advisers because they seem to be running a race that would do fairly well in the panhandle of texas but not on a national stage, not even in the republican primary, not even in a republican primary where the tea party has an impact. take the social security ponzi scheme statement and it's a horrific lie, it goes against american values and ben bernanke is treasonous. we could go on all day. these are not -- not only is it not going to help you win in the general election, this is going to be the primary.

who is advising him to run a texas campaign nationally? >> one of the reasons he was able to get into the race so late, he had strong national advisers who he's close to. i think, if he were running against a stronger front-runner like mitt romney who is still the front-runner, someone who hadn't signed into law health care, these things would be disqualified. he's one-on-one now. perry, surprised on climate change and social security, totally predictable questions. i'm surprised his answers weren't as good as they could have been. remember, he still brings a lot of strength here. i don't think his answer on climate change or social security are going to cause him to no longer be the national

front-runner. he's lucky, there's another debate around the corner. he can clean these things up. he's always going to be west texas. when george bush ran for president in 1999-2000, they knew texas was a problem. americans have an ambivalent view of texas. some have a negative view. >> let me say -- i'm not just saying this. i love texas. i love west texas. there are a hell of a lot of people in texas that would be great leaders nationwide. rick perry doesn't even represent west texas very well when he says some of these things, willie, that are disqualifying him. he's the front-runner right now. what's fascinating, the front-runner from three weeks ago, michele bachmann, almost invisible. >> we are less than one month out of her victory with all that

momentum. back to perry for a second. mike murphy tweeted something that makes the points a lot of you made. perry very good in the gop primary. went on offense, stumble bomb on defense. how does he win a general election? >> he does not win a general election. this may offend a lot of people, i'm sorry. i said the same thing about michele bachmann a few weeks ago. rick perry does not win the general election. >> i understand it's his first debate. fine. i get that. you almost have a subliminal line across the bottom of the screen to republican delegates. the line says do you want to scratch a sore or do you want to win? >> the problem is, a lot of

conservatives lined up behind john mccain four years ago. that stinks. a guy they didn't consider to be a conservative, teamed up with ted kennedy on a lot of things. sticking a sharp stick in a lot of things. like goldwater, he had a disconnect. do you agree? >> i agree with you. >> conservatives are saying wait, i'm going to get behind a guy that was a liberal governor of massachusetts? so i think mark is right, it's why it's hard to make that final dive. >> do you think perry's presence in the race now helps romney in a competitive way? i think it's a good thing to hone your skills, sharpen your skills. >> explain that. the first time i ran, i had 87 people in the republican

primary. everybody said it was going to be a nightmare for us. explain why it's the best thing that ever happened? >> it's like scrimmages before the game. the opportunity to show your republican base you can be tough or strong or the democratic base if you are in a primary. it's the first time romney has been challenged in a way. the bachmann challenge was serious, but this challenge from perry is different. he has money. he has national name. he brings a cachet that nobody else brings. this has been good for romney. hopefully he gets stronger. >> there's a big difference between mitt romney defeating a republican congresswoman who most people that served with her didn't think had a serious candidacy. a texas governor who has been there for ten years, who has

tons of money -- >> rga president. >> rga. if mitt romney beats perry, he is a giant killer. that helps him going in. >> i would have thought the one-term wonders or one-hit wonders, for them. we are going to talk about the debate more coming up in the show. what i thought was interesting, there was not one mention of afghanistan especially days before -- >> very little. >> can you believe that? so little about foreign policy. >> we have actually been talking -- >> the country. >> oh yeah. >> were you surprised by that mark halperin? >> seriously. >> in a debate of that length, you have to make your choices. i thought brian williams did a good job of having an extended dialogue on a few topics. you can go through and say education, lots of issues

important to the public. i think you could have done 90 minutes on jobs. as long as they are asking good, important questions, you can't hold them to that. >> can i say one quick thing about romney? >> yeah. >> there's no one who could tell you in a credible way who is going to win. it's truly up for grabs. while perry had weak moments last night, he has a lot of strengths. >> absolutely. we'll talk about this coming up in politico. the day before the anniversary of 9/11, i'm surprised they didn't talk about that. we have been talking about how to reflect on 9/11 ten years later. it's a difficult day for our country, but important to reflect. i was struck by a song that you wrote. joe writes songs. this one he wrote a week after 9/11 but never finished it until

now. >> yeah. as we are coming up on an anniversary, finished it. we decided it would be good to get a video, a way to remember. we did that. also, we wanted to pull in a group that willie has a great group operation that we talked about here before. >> yeah, i appreciate you doing that, operation men who care for warriors. they need our help. much appreciated. ucla medical center. >> this is our tribute to 9/11 ten years ago. >> a big hand to john tower who put it together. beautiful work. >> yeah. ♪

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25 past the hour. time to take a look at the morning papers. thousands of gas masks and chemicals were shipped in moammar gadhafi's stronghold in the final weeks of his regime. it raises concern about whether he has access to deadly mustard gas. they said gadhafi's remaining stockpiles are secure. >> the courier as obama's

popularity plummets to new lows, the nation is headed for a double-dip recession. this article says tonight's speech could be the most important of his presidency. >> providence journal for students entering college, september 11th is a distant memory of their childhood. it's turned to the war on terror and insurgents fighting. >> let's turn to politico and patrick gavin. good to see you. >> good morning. >> how come they didn't pick you to moderate the debate? >> john harris -- i'm stuck at nbc doing the dirty week. >> he did a good job with brian williams. >> he did. >> tonight turns to the president as he addresses congress with a plan to create more jobs. what should we be looking for

tonight? >> it's a very, very important speech as my colleague points out. the expectations couldn't be lower. a lot of republicans aren't going to the speech. they don't think they will hear anything new. one thing to keep an eye out is not how the republican party is going to react, john boehner is not giving a speech. how are the democrats going to respond. we are hearing about the $3 trillion package. obama is going to strike a compassionate tone he hopes with the republican party. it's not going to appeal to a lot of democrats in the base who want to see him go after them. what's really going to happen after this? if obama tries to strike a bipartisan tone, he heads to richmond on friday and give more

meat and potatoes. a lot of republicans say why do you talk when speaking face-to-face. a couple things to keep in mind, very high stakes, not a lot of people expecting much out of it. >> how does the president breakthrough tonight and not make it another speech? what can he say tonight that will breakthrough? >> if i were him, i'd get above congress. i would ask for both sides not to collapse throughout the speech. to give them a chance not to be partisan. republicans like certain things. the headlines joe read and what we are seeing across the country, people aren't interested in things that just excite democrats. the president realized in speaking before certain audiences and saying certain things. i think tonight the tone has to be about creating jobs for the country and how we ensure the america we love was the america we love going forward as we

approach 9/11. the progress we have to make going forward. congress, remind them about his a i approval rating and congress' approval rating is low. as ben franklin said, well done is better than well said. he has to look at what he does. >> can i ask you something, harold, and you joe as well. you have been there in congress. what is going on here with the president of the united states? you have had a speaker of the house not returning a president's phone call three weeks ago. you have a president of the united states deferring to the national football league to a football game in terms of giving a major speak about the biggest crisis we face in this country, jobs. what is going on? >> harold? >> i guess people want to see the packers explain. i think your point, that's the question every american is asking. >> he has to fix it. >> it's almost like when

clinton, when these guys, the democrats in '94, they asked if he was still relevant. he was. he's a great speaker. tonight, he's got to call on different qualities, different powers and remind congress that politicians and government, their standing has never been lower. we are being challenged. we have to put aside what our differences are. lay off for simple things. whether republicans endorse it, lay out three or four things he wants to get done. i don't know if joe has a different opinion. >> mark halperin, what do you think? >> the president is qualified to bring the country together and deal with the challenges we face. the jobs crisis is a huge crisis. if he's a guy who wants to get things done to bring the country

together, this is as good a chance he's going to have. it's tough. it's not because of this president but because of our times, which is diminished from what it was in the cold car. >> amazing. he's going to clear the stage. patrick -- >> leader of the free-week-old. >> patrick, thanks so much. still ahead, jay carney, senator chuck shumer, michael hayden and steve schmidt. he's got an interesting take. we'll be right back. ♪ okay, so who ordered the cereal that can help lower cholesterol and who ordered the yummy cereal? yummy. that's yours. lower cholesterol. lower cholesterol. i'm yummy. lower cholesterol.

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you know what that music means? the nfl kicks off. no, it's not the president. it's not hail to the chiefs, it's hail to the packers. 8:30 eastern, yes, the president of the united states moved out of way on this one. 8:30. just in time for the start of the season, the nfls most valuable teams are out. the dallas cowboys are one at

$1.8 billion. followed by the redskins and texans. the texans open on sunday who are playing without payton manning. he started every game for the colts since september 6th, 1998, 13 years ago. >> must be a serious injury. >> 227 consecutive starts, including the postseason. there is one unconfirmed report that manning could miss many, many more games. when talking a neck injury -- >> he's a good guy. i hope he takes it slowly. >> they have a back up. hopefully peyton comes back soon. carpenter on his way to a

complete game shut out. strikes out niger morgan. he throws the tobacco and gum toward carpenter then gets into it with pujols. he completes the game shut out. they are now six and a half games behind atlanta in the wild card race. the phillies completed theirs with the pinch hitter in the ninth inning. they are not 43 games over .500. the first time in their franchise history. they have baseball's best record at 91-48. american league red sox, eighth inning. jay is down a run with the bases loaded. he cannot get the run. it's what daniel did. his second. next batter doubles to right center. jays go on to one, 11-10.

a missed opportunity for the red sox who lost to the orioles. they are two and a half games up on boston. >> baseball is a long season. boston is having a rougher week than they have had. >> they are having a tough month. down two and a half. facing the tigers and verlander as the wild card. >> he had his 22nd win of the season last night. >> he's going to win the cy young, right? >> oh, yeah. >> when i'm down, i -- the only thipg that gets me up. i'm down because of the red sox thing. egypt cup soccer. the best in the world. >> have you seen this move, when executed by a great player, penalty kick, stops, waits for the goalie to dive, then kicks it in. >> i'm glad i'm not --

>> he tries for it, falls on his face. hey, watch this move. >> wouldn't that have been funnier if you were able to set it up? go in early. >> didn't work out. >> wow. >> anyway. he's got a yellow card. >> for what? >> insulting the goalkeeper. anyway -- coming up next, kneel ferguson going to help us through the must read opinion pages. you are watching "morning joe."

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hour. with us now, professor of history at harvard university and stanford universities and columnist for news week, niall ferguson. it's great to have you on this morning. >> what can i say, you have come to the wrong place. >> there you go. we have been talking about 9/11 and beginning to pay tribute to the day. you write in "newsweek" and article about what if it never happened. >> this is the big question, how much did it change us? you can only answer that by imagining a situation where the administration, both the clinton and bush administration heeded the warnings of al qaeda that came from people like richard clark. let's imagine a situation where they close them down. we never hear that much about it. this is all done with covert

operations. most of us, if we look at the opinion polls, we would say we are not that different now from the way we were ten years ago before the attacks. maybe in that sense, t 9/11 wasn't that big of a deal. i think american opinions are radically different ten years on. the affects of 9/11 on the countries who produced it like egypt, saudi arabia and their neighbor would be huge. without 9/11, we wouldn't have seen that expansion of u.s. power, in afghanistan and iraq and elsewhere. it's transformed the great mideast for the better. i think 9/11 had a bigger impact than the united states. >> another point you make, you say this, in the past ten years the u.s. has directly or indirectly overthrown three governments in the muslim world. americans today feel less

powerful than they did then. in 2001, the u.s. had a less important role as a world leader than ten years ago. the latest figure is 41%. >> interesting. >> yeah. >> we lost faith in ourselves even as we have been proving the united states still is an incredibly powerful super power. i think it's partly a function of the difficulties the u.s. had in afghanistan and iraq. if you go back to the aftermath of 9/11, there was massive overconfidence about how easy it would be to execute what became bushes strategy for democracization. the american public began to lose faith in the project of dmokization.

the economic crisis that began in 2007 dealt a second big blow to american self-confidence. we really felt proud prior to the financial crisis. add trouble with nation building, we were still number one economically. the financial crisis dealt a blow to that. ten years on, the united states feels less powerful than on the eve of the 9/11 attacks. >> did you see team america? >> of course. >> of course. where the united states of america goes around and team america takes care of all the terror plots. sort of the argument regardless of how we got to where we have today, the mistakes me made as a country over the past decade, as we reflect, if we reflect with an open mind over the past ten years, we made a lot of terrible

mistakes but we have shaken up the board in the middle east. a lot of things have happened today that probably wouldn't have happened. >> it was interesting to hear niall say that. it was an argument we heard in 2003, '04 and' 05. maybe some good will come out of it. i'm not sure that's what happened, but is that what you are suggesting in. >> at the time, i was skeptical. i was doubtful the democratic way would sweep the region. you have to admit there's a strong case to be made. the initial shock administered by the overthrow of saddam paved the way for what we call the arab spring. military intervention even when

it's half hearted is a good way of getting rid of dictators and opening a way for a transition to democracy. one of the ironies is what began with a speech in cairo that was saying we are going to be completely different from the bush administration ended up producing a similar policy with the same results. it's going to be messy in libya, that's for sure. it's messy in egypt and iraq and afghanistan. isn't it an improvement from the previous regime? it must be said that it is. i don't think any of this would have happened if there was no 9/11. >> there is obviously the obama supporters don't like us. walter russell needs -- said that barack obama, regardless of the cairo speech is better than

george w. bush. >> he will get great credit. i take the devil's advocate. we lost thousands of lives. i hear niall's point. it's hard to imagine america would not find ways to be involved in the global stage. i don't dispute his analysis of this, but to the many lives that have been lost and the trillions of dollars we spent that could have been spent in other ways. i put that forward for argument this morning. >> that's an important point to bear in mind. nobody wants to down play. >> i wasn't suggesting or belittling that as well but the money we have spend and the lives we have lost certainly -- >> i think, you know, i think one way of looking at this is to imagine what future historians will say about this period.

9/11 distracted the united states from the huge economic challenge building in china. we were so focused on the greater middle east we missed this giant panda, the rapidly growing chinese supper farmer. china will overtake the u.s. in terms of gdp. maybe that is the significance of 9/11. >> niall ferguson, great to see you again. jay carney is ahead. and willie's news you can't use is next. we'll be right back. what's it going to take? do we have to spell it out? can't republicans in congress get the message? instead, they protect tax breaks for big oil. tax breaks for billionaires. even tax breaks for companies that ship our jobs overseas. republicans in congress have shown who they stand up for. voting to take care of the wealthy. not the middle class. it's time to bring jobs back to america.

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is it time? well, we're being tender and gentle with you today. >> thank you. my tailbone and i need it. >> yes. >> moments from the debate last night, governor perry talking about climate change and envoking, you don't hear this at every presidential debate, the name of a 17th century astronom astronomer? >> what? excuse me? >> here it is. >> science is not settled on this. the idea that we would put americans economy in jeopardy based on scientific theory that's not settled yet, to me is

nonsense. i tell somebody just because you have a group of scientists that said here are the facts, galileo got outvoted. >> i knew galileo. >> i thought so. >> what point was he making there? >> it turned out galileo was right. he said 98% of scientists in that era disagreed with him. >> i'm trying to figure it out. >> i think he's galileo. >> willie, i'm in the mood for ice cream. >> you like ben and jerry's? >> i love ben and jerry's. >> alec bald win? >> of course. what are you talking about here?

in a tribute to "saturday night live," they have come out with schweddy balls ice cream. it's a salute to alec baldwin and "saturday night live." >> that makes me want to light up. >> that led me to my next story. remember the smoking baby? >> i do. >> he blew up on the internet. a therapist went in and helped him kick the habit. >> that's good. is he trimmed down? >> it almost can't be real, but it is. our friends at abc news checked in with him who is now 4 years old. here is how it went. >> wow. >> aldi, are you aldi? hi, i'm dan. what are you doing? what's happening?

sweet glasses you have here. i like that. very nice, thank you. where you going? where you going? >> oh. >> dan harris was like i traveled around the world, can i get a couple more minutes with you? >> the kid just walked away. >> yeah, what would you do. >> here it is. here you go. good to see you, thanks for coming in. >> he's a star. he doesn't have time. >> the shades. >> i'm done. >> drop the mic, i'm out. boom. >> i'm done. >> i love this kid. >> coming up, more from last night's debate. we are bringing in steve schmidt. [ female announcer ] lactaid milk is easy to digest. it's real milk full of calcium and vitamin d. and tastes simply delicious.

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we have a genuine disagreement in massachusetts, almost no one uninsured. in texas a more limited approach. a quarter uninsured. who had the better end of the argument? >> i'm not interested in getting republicans to fight one another. the fact is -- the fact is, no, no we don't. i for one and i hope all my friends up here are going to repudiate the news med ya to get republicans to fight each other

to protect barack obama who deserves to be defeated. whoever the nominee is, we are all for defeating barack obama. >> okay. top of the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." mike barnicle and harold ford jr. are with us. joining the table this hour, we have former mccain helping steve schmidt. good to have you on board. your line from the campaign last night? one line? >> romney-perry slug fest. you can see that shaping up last night very, very clearly. >> michele bachman dropped off the radar? >> she faded big time. she's out of oxygen. i think she'll fadeaway now. >> joe is coming up. we are going to be simulcasting

with another show. interesting, we had eight republican presidential hopefuls at the ronald reagan library for a major, major event to put forth their opinions, yet i didn't hear anything about afghanistan, did you? >> no. as we talked about it before, you can't cover everything. it doesn't mean afghanistan isn't important, the moderators chose to focus on other areas. afghanistan has been in other debates and will come up again. clearly, it is the topic for the next nominee to deal with. there's more than a 90% chance it will be romney or perry. you are going to have to talk to them about how to handle it. >> it's one thing to bring it up, another thing to talk about what is prevalent for our country and what might be problematic in the way our

society is splitting. wouldn't one of the candidates think to bring it up or is that asking too much? >> it's not a great issue. most of the party would have liked to stay the course, are critical of obama, the troop withdrawal schedule. on the other hand, there are a lot of americans including within the republican party who agree with the notion of getting out of afghanistan, its is too expensive. i don't think it's a political winner unless you want to get to the president's left. only huntsman has that. >> the issue is jobs. >> the last question on afghanistan is reflective of jobs. it's what people are talking about. perry said he created more jobs in texas than mitt romney did in as governor of massachusetts. romney fired back. let's watch. >> states are dirnt. texas is a great state.

they have zero income tax, a right to work state. are republican legislature, a republican supreme court. a lot of oil and gas in the ground. they are wonderful things. governor perry doesn't believe he created those things. if he said that, it's like al gore saying he created the internet. as a matter of fact george bush and his pred assessor agrcreate jobs faster than you did. >> there was a slew of op-eds and analysis that he shouldn't get credit for. mitt romney is going down that path as well. >> i'm not sure the election is going to turn on who created how many jobs in massachusetts in the 1990s or jobs created in texas. the more important issue and you saw this last night in the debate for republican voters is who is best able to stand-up against barack obama and deliver an economic message.

i think republicans view this election as a winnable election. four years ago was a terrible political climate for republicans. a lot of pessimism in that. four years later, people think barack obama can be beaten. nobody wants to see a candidate up there who throws the race. it's going to turn on an electability argument. he started to run out of gas in the last 45 minutes and had rough moments. >> questions based on your comments about the different climate, is this republican field settled? is there an opening for a chris christie or rudy giuliani or jeb bush? is there room for another candidate? >> i wouldn't be surprised to see another candidate get into the race because of the late start and weirdness of the primary season so far, particularly the first half of

it. through the spring, you saw a dynamic where the field was driving demand for another. with perry's entry into the race, i think the race is settled. i think that republican voters may have a choice that they are happy with with the full slate of candidates. >> is there a huge difference culturally, politically between the republican voters and rende republic republican delegates? >> i think there is. the mistake is made when republican candidates go out and think the full body of the primary electorate is composed of your most hard core republican activists. if you look at the dynamic of the race, rick perry could win iowa and romney in new hampshire. there have been no candidates

who have won both of them. they limit the field to the two going forward. i think it's the dynamic you will see coming out of the base. >> social security, rick perry drove it home. the point that was so controversial in his book. he stuck with it and drilled down on it. mark halperin, you felt perhaps he could have taken it further. let's listen to it. this is rick perry versus mitt romney on social security. >> it is a ponzi scheme to tell our kids that are 25 or 30 years old today, you paying into a program that is going to be there. anybody that is for the status quo with social security today is involved with a monstrous lie to our kids. it's not right. >> our nominee has to be someone who isn't committed to abolishing social security but committed to saving it. we have always had at the heart of our party the recognition we

want to care for those in our need. >> you cannot keep the status quo in place and call it anything but a ponzi scheme. that is what it is. americans know that. regardless of what any says, maybe it's time to have provocative language. >> did he have no choice but to drill down on the point he made in his book or could he have done something to, i don't know, at least fix it? you can't win on a broad level with that message, can you? >> he could have celebrated the programs early years that americans have benefited from. he could have been more reassuring for current retirees and talked about what his ideas were to save the system. one of his aids said it's not clear it will have a specific social security plan. he needed a better, reassuring answer even without backing off on the book.

romney's campaign is run by a man who is an opposition researcher. he knows how to find negative information about an opponent but put it out there in a bloodstream and make it a problem. they have done that on social security. there's going to be more. per yry has to handle it better than last night. >> the talk from perry about social security isn't going to just scare general election voters but people within his own primary, isn't it? >> i think so. there's a sliver of the republican primary audience that will find the comments resonant. you look at retirees in south carolina and the myrtle beach, you know, area. it's going to scare them to death as it will in florida. national politics is an unforgiving business. ask john kerry. john mccain, the fundamentals of the economy are strong.

when you are explaining comments in a national campaign, you are in a bad place. the republican candidate needs to be talki ining about jobs, j creation, not defending a program that was institutionalized by dwight eisenhower in the 1950s. the debate over whether social security is a good or bad idea has been settled for a long time. >> the rendell gapublican deleg were talking about. we want to put a w up this fall rather than feeling bad. >> one of the dynamics that's changed is the proportional breakdown. it's not winner take all anymore. i think you could see a scenario where this primary campaign goes on quite a ways. i think that rick perry has

advantages as you move south. as you move out of the south, as the primary campaign extends out across the country, the supertuesday states, you can see a very, very narrow race. >> but perry still has a chance. is it down to two now or down to one? >> i think rick perry entered the race as a soft front-runner. i thought if he had an exemplary performance he would have been a strong front-runner. he is the front-runner for the republican nomination. he is ahead in the polls. he did not blow himself up last night. he did make a number of statements that are problematic. when asked an education question, he responds the state of texas schools are, you know, because of the proximity of new mexico problematic like new mexico, arizona and colorado

with rise in the latino population. >> are there statements he nailed? >> look, i think that the republican nominee is going to do well in southern states. it's where the base of the party is. i think the challenge for rick perry is how does he compete in states like ohio? how does he compete in states like florida with a huge retiree population? florida is a state that republicans should win, have to win. when you are talking social security as a ponzi scheme, you don't necessarily put yourself in a great position. >> this is the first politico debate. it was fascinating. we are going to continue with joe scarborough on the "today" show, talking with ann. yes. you don't need to go anywhere. he's going to talk with ann not only about the debate, who won, lost and what happens to michele

bachmann. ed left? ed left the scene and michele fell off the radar. now we go to the "today" show. they are going to talk about a song that morninging show put together. >> hey, joe, good morning. >> thanks. >> what could the president say to turn around the country, the direction of the country and the poll numbers? >> the president is in a difficult spot. most americans don't think the president or republicans are focused on it. the first two years, a debate about health care. this year, the deficit. this president is going to have to say something that jolts america into action, jolts congress into action and he's going to have to be strong. this is a president who is far too weak. he's -- he was preempted by the republican debate and preempted by the packers tonight. because of that, it's shown at 4:00 on the west coast.

>> at least three republicans are not going to be in the audience, including jim demint. >> right. >> one is going to opt to hold a twitter town hall. is this disrespectful to the office of the president, joe? >> i don't know if it's disrespectful? it's not smart. the president hasn't gained much traction in the past with these speeches. the president has an american people waiting. you look at poll after poll after poll. americans lost confidence in the president. they have lost confidence in republicans and congress. americans want to see them working together. it may not excite the base, but it's where middle america is. >> let's think about what happened last night at the gop debate. did rick perry say what he needed to say to maintain his momentum as he's now the leading candidate? >> i don't think so. he keeps calling social security a ponzi scheme. if you want to say social security is a ponzi scheme,

that's fine. he doesn't want to do that. it's a ponzi scheme, it's a lie. he wrote in his book it does violence to american values. i don't care what primary you run in or how powerful the tea party is, it's going to spell problems. >> romney was making hay over it. he was doing it last night. what about the other candidates? to be honest with you, so much of the focus was on these two. on twitter, romney and perry were the trending topic. is this a two-man rice? >> it is now. two weeks ago, michele bachmann was at the top. before that, trump was at the top. this past fall, it was subpoena. there's always mitt romney and somebody else. the question is, does rick perry survive a month or two? i don't think he does. i think romney's people are happy with where they are now.

>> you have a personal project you are working on for 9/11. >> right. like every show, how are we going to remember what happened on 9/11. i wrote a song ten years ago. we decided to finish it and it's called "reason to believe". we are working with willie geist and operation men to try to help soldiers coming home. >> thank you so much for putting your heart in it. you can watch president obama's address to congress tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern here on nbc. >> okay. that was joe talking to ann. the personal project she was talking about i would have liked to have seen. it's a song we all put together as a tribute to 9/11. it comes on our website.

>> joe wrote and recorded that song. >> he wrote and recorded it in a matter of about a week. >> yeah. >> wrote it after 9/11, the first part of it. the last part of it, ten years later. we have been thinking for awhile as to how to recognize the day and this seemed most fitting. you will see more of that in the days to come in the run up to sunday, which is 9/11, ten years later. steve schmidt, thank you very much. jay carney is going to be here to talk about the president's speech. chuck todd is going to join us to talk about last night's debate. you're watching "morning joe." coffee doesn't have vitamins... unless you want it to.

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♪ this is a president so committed to class warfare and socialism he can't possibly be

effective in jobs. we need a president who is going to provide leadership in giving direction and opening up opportunities. this president thooz go. he's a nice guy and doesn't have a clue how to get the country moving again. >> wow. that's one way to put it. some people may not feel that way about things. let's address those things. with us from the white house, we have jay carney. good to see you. >> good to see you, mika. >> also, we have nbc news chief white house correspondent, chuck todd as well. jay, i'll start with you and let you respond to the statements. also, on a more realistic level, how does the president turn the page? it seems like his efforts over the past several years have fallen flat and people are lo losing confidence. >> mika, there's no question people remain confident about the economy. understandably so. growth is too slow, job creation

is too slow. the president will announce he is putting forward the american jobs act. his proposals, all of which have traditionally had broad bipartisan support that will absolutely, if passed, lead to greater job creation and economic growth. congress can do this now, right away. it's fully paid for. if they come back from their five-week recess and decide it's time to listen to the american people and get things done instead of bicker and posture. >> i think the republicans have been incredibly difficult. they have been like a stone wall to progress. having said that, he's the president. how does he get everybody back together and respond? >> by channelling the american people. he went on a trip through the midwest, a bus tour, what he heard from americans out of the

country was unbelievable frustration with washington in action. unbelievable anger over the fact that while washington has been gridlocked in the past, there's been political posturing in the past. it was usually just annoying. what we saw over the summer among house republicans was they were willing to put the american economy in great danger to store points. that was overted at the last minute. the harm was done. we can't have anymore of that. they expect congress and the administration to come together and do the things they can do together in a bipartisan way to grow the economy and create jobs. there is no alternative. if the members of congress in the house and senate heard the same thing from their constituencies, from their constituents, rather, the president believes they will come back with a renewed sense of urgency and solve the

problems today. >> willie geist, good to see you. >> good morning. >> what you described from the house republicans on the debt ceiling, what gives you hope or belief that they will be willing to work with you on something this big? we have heard talk of stimulus in the form of infrastructure. they didn't like the last one. they don't believe it worked. why would they now be willing to sit down at the table with the white house, with democrats to work out something bigger? >> because members of congress answer to the people, their constituen constituents. they have been focused on one segment, one slice of their party. i think what they are going to begin to realize is they are going to be accountable, too. their constituents, the american people are going to say, what did you do to help the situation. it's got to be more than say no, no, no to every reasonable bipartisan proposal the

democrats put forward. everything the president puts forward in the american jobs act had bipartisan support in the past. we are talking tax cuts for regular working americans. help to allow teachers to stay on the job and first responders. putting construction workers back to work. when you talk infrastructure, guess what, it's bipartisan. it has to do with leveraging public sector money and private money, building highways, bridges, schools. it has the support of the chamber of commerce and labor. why not get congress to pass it, put it into law and get americans back to work. >> jay, i have a question about the presidency itself, about the concept of the presidency. a few weeks ago, we had reports that speaker boehner did not return a phone call from the

president of the united states during the debt ceiling debate. now, this week, you know the president couldn't speak yesterday because of the republicans opposition he's speaking tonight at 7:00 in order not to bump into a national football league game. what is going on? he's president of the united states. why didn't he tell the nfl delay your kick off until 8:30, i'm president. >> look, the president has an opportunity tonight to speak to millions of americans. we believe and we are confident that millions and millions will tune in. honestly, the fact that there is the kick off of the nfl season tonight in a nationally televised game probably helps us to build an audience. the other stuff is a side show. it's the kind of stuff -- in this press room in my daily briefing, i took two dozen questions about the spat between the president and congress over the timing of the speech. that kind of stuff makes

americans pull their hair out. they don't care a lick. they do not care about that kind of stuff. they want their elected leaders to represent them and get the jobs done. put americans back to work and grow the economy and do it in a way that's paid for. i think it's very important. the president will make clear tonight the proposals he's putting on the table will be paid for, will not add to the debt. that's an important issue. >> good morning, jay. it's harold ford. to build on willie's point about what is passable, i know the spirit and the tone the president will talk about, one of conciliatory, asking congress to come together to work on behalf of the people. typically, the business community wants more certainty around regulations and taxes. they hope it stimulates demands. you have heard others say what is passable. thinking about those two, what can we expect to hear?

i think the president -- what can we look for in terms of democrats and republicans to get meat to the bones of what you are saying that will cause the country and the business community to say something is going to get done? >> well, i think some of the measures we are talked about, i don't want to preview every element. >> i didn't want to ask you that. just out of curiosity. >> there are republicans supporting payroll tax holiday. this is what we had in place this year and should be extended. this puts an average of $1,000 in the pockets of the average american family each year to help them make ends meet. they spend that money. it helps small businesses so they can hire. it's critical. the infrastructure i talked about, it's vital not because it puts construction workers back to work, but helps build this nation up and make it more competitive. we need the best airports in the

world. we used to have them. we need the best highways in the world. we used to have them. the school construction. there's not a community in this nation that doesn't need help with school somewhere. projects that can be done right away putting people who are qualified but unemployed in their community to work. these are thing that is will be paid for and have had traditionally had bipartisan support and should have bipartisan support if congress is serious about taking action now. i understand the issues that businesses have about wanting regulatory certainty. look back on regulations to clear out the underbrush of regulations that are unnecessary or hamper business. he's committed to doing that. we also need to take action now. he's committed to long term deficit and debt control as you saw during the debate and

discussions over the debt ceiling crisis. he will in the future, soon, put on the table a sweeping long term deficit package that exceeds the mandate of the so-called supercommittee in congress. he's committed to that, too. you can have both. grow the economy now and get the deficit and debt under control. it's what the american people do. if there's bipartisan will to do it, we can get it done right away. >> let's hope tonight, not for the benefit of the president, but the country, getting progress on this. >> thank you for being with us this morning. >> thanks for having me. >> you have chuck todd standing by in burbank. >> i think i saw you coming to work on tv, talking act the debate. now here you are again. how are you holding up, buddy? >> trying to figure out what day of the week it is. i hope to get through the second quarter of tonight's game. >> no chance.

>> it's rogers, come on. >> let's go back to what jay carney was talking about. how does the president make this speech more than another speech? how does he prevent it from being white noise? >> it sounds as if there's going to be a bold part to this, it's tone, not necessarily the policy itself. you know, which president obama comes in, conciliatory, frustrated or a feisty president obama. we have to remember, it isn't about tonight. i think it's over the next three week period. you know, before they ask for the joint session, i did have an administration official saying, look, we have to treat this restart and this push for jobs like a state of the union in the old ways that president's used to use state of the unions. what i mean is they would actually go around the country

over a month and try to sell it in various places to keep up political pressure in a swing state, swing congressional district. it starts tonight from the president. he's in richmond, virginia friday. we'll have the 9/11 commemorations after that. then he's on the road. let's see how effective he is along the way. i think it starts tonight. tone is what i'm most curious about. >> chuck, to last night's debate, steve schmidt was just here, very insightful about the republican party having run mccain's campaign and stuff like that. what is your sense of the ponzi scheme from rick perry last night? is that harmful to him in the upcoming weeks against romney or out there for the general election? how does it affect him with regard to republican delegates? >> the romney campaign believes

ponzi scheme along with immigration that's going to come later, pretty soon, this will be the fight inside the republican party. at least for the near term. primary usually do become at the end of the day about one or two issues. usually, it's one you can't predict. this case, social security is the be all end all. three months later, we'll wonder why, was the primary about that and not x, y and z? i think it's clear, this is where romney's campaign wants to take it. it gives them an opening to play in iowa, by the way. very much an older electorate down there. of course it's florida. i can tell you this, we have all these campaigns. i'm sending one to florida now sooner rather than later because it is clear to me that florida is going to be a primary battle

that could be either the first time we see rick perry pierced since the early states in the primary are more to his base, iowa, south carolina in particular or it's the place romney doesn't breakthrough, perry holds on, proves the ponzi scheme is a nonstarter and rolls to the nomination. it sets up, florida is the be all, end all early primary state when we find out when it is. >> romney is going to invoke the ponzi scheme. chuck, take a nap if you can. go take a nap, then get ready for the game tonight. >> thanks so much. see ya. coming up next, chuck schumer will join us on set and michael hayden. "morning joe" will be right back. [ wind howling ]

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that's a live picture. 7:39 this morning in new york city. a window to our week here in new york, nothing but rain. d.c. weighed in on the 2012 race just ahead of last night's

debate. in an interview with abc news he suggested there is one person who could be a successful challenger to president obama and it's a democrat. >> hillary clinton is a formidable individual. i think she's the most competent person they have in their cabinet. frankly, i thought she was going to win the nomination last time around. maybe there will be enough in the democratic party so there will be a primary on that side. >> even though clinton did not say she would run, he said it would be a good idea. he does not plan to endorse anyone until later in the campaign. >> he's always helpful. >> stirring the pot. >> up next x ten years after 9/11, is it time to end the war on terror?

michael hayden and juliette kayyem. [ female announcer ] lactaid milk is easy to digest.

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welcome back to "morning joe." last night, the organization intelligence hosted a live oxford style debate posing the question, is it time to end the war on terror. joining us, two debaters and prips pal, michael hayden who argued against it. and national security

kayyem. good morning to you both. why the war on you will. what you call it might make a difference. what we do is very important in treating this as combat, treating it as war gives the american state, the american government more authorityto keep america safe. if we are not at war, what happened the morning of pakistan time isn't permitted. yoneed to keep those authorities on theable that the american government can call on. >> we can change the title as lo as we are in a war footing. >> as long as we have the legal authority to do what we have been doing, which has been quite

successful, made us much safer. how you wrap it and package it, i'm less concerned aboutat. >> the difficulty with the debate is the authoritiesou want for any president, bush, obama or the next one are relatively the sa including using military force. the war on terror as we understood it over the last ten years means a lot of things to a lot of people. some people believe it means gitmo, military commissions and all that other stuff. what we call it is informed. the difference is, if we use effective counterterrorism and talk about it as a counterterrorism effort and war against al qaeda, people will understand what we are doing. we will kill bin laden and use other tools, diplomacy, lel intelligence that help us fight al qaeda. so, in some ways, there's not that much of a difference except what we call it. >> is that not, though, talkin

act what we are doing, one of the biggest obstacles to succs? going forward, isn't one of the keys to success, our ability, as an open society, thank god, to conduct successfully small, strategic military operations around the world? >> it is. it cuts against the grain of the american culture. it's instinctively uncomfortable. it is the best tool we have to keep us safe. it's perfectly lful. it's consistent with the constitution and our laws. there's a discomfort that sometimes leads us in e direction of doing things against our interest. reading randa rights in detroit, we didn't have to do that. we are a nati at war. he's an enemy. we could have questioned him for

a longer period. we have an instinct. we feel better. we think we look better if we read them miranda. that led to the attorney general appearing in congress saying we may need to rework miranda and need moreflexibility. i don't like that. it protects me and you. i don't want flexibility in miranda. if we have another approach, we could use those authories and do that without mucking about those things that keep you and me. where ere he agree there's a tremendous change, call it whateverou wan the bush and the first four years is very different than the second term. it's very different all though people like to say it's more of th same in president obama's couple years. the military commissions coercive interrogation and the color code system. there's been tremendous changes

about, bringing counterterrorism tactics and talking about them. it's important enough, more than a symbolic change. it's been more than symbolic. we should recognize that. those anges happen in the bush administration because iticism because of the courts. then of course under obama, tremendous changes andecretary napolitano and others. >> i'm going to describe an arc. what we were faced with after 9/11, unprecedented in termof destruction here. the character of an enemy. this is an enemy that rejts the core principle of geneva. not just victims, but themselves. we were faced with a whole series of unprecedented questions. we had good people with very

tough questions, learning by doing over the arc of ten years. i actually think we have arrived at a fairly comfortable center line in the american body politics as to how we want to deal with this we don't need to spend a lot of time in the rear-view mirror second guessing good ople making tough decisions. >> it might be, don't you think, that we ha a problem as a nags culturally in the war we are inlved in, there's not any uss missouri signing a surrender. >> no it won't happen. it won't happen that way. that . it's happening every day in all sorts of ways that aren't reflected in localities that are changing the way they approach emergency management or counterterrorism or intelligence sharing by states and the federal government. when you talk about this arc, we can look back, criticize and say maybe that war mentality led to things we disagree with, including, sort of as many peopleargued, discussed last night, the war in iraq, but ten

years later, all sorts of changes are occurring in localities, in states, federal governmenthat are bringing up the brink in all sorts of ways, includg several con constitutional crises. we are beginning to understand it something different from war. >> last night the republicans debated on simmy valley, to see who would run against president obama. it's been noted on this show, that afghanistan and issues of foreign policies were not mentioned or scarcely touched on. how do you interpret that? is that fatigue on the part of american people? no one brought it up. was that surprising to you? >> we didn't have the chance to watch our debate. we had our own. looking at the press accounts, part of it, theuestions asked, or more specifically the

questions that weren't asked. i also think tere's a bit of a third rail aspect of this discussion that people are looking for a political upside to join in this debate. they're backing away from it. this sounds a little critical on my part. we talked about e detention policy and there's criticism of the bush detention administration policy. there's ambiguity in the bush detention policy. it's something they would rather not talk about even in government. it's not surprising you have candidates for president not looking to be totally involved in it, certainly not this early in the campaign. >> do you have in hindsight any regrets about the inruments used on the war in terror, warrantless wire tapping, combatants held without charge. doou regret any of those? >> couple of thoughts. with the benefit of behind sight, i made decisions that i

made with the circumstances in front of e. other good people made decisions at the same time with the circumstances in front of them. i'm not willing to go back and second-guess. i'm really not. something that i would change, going back, is i would, other political branch of government, more actively involved in this and force them to make the hard choices, that the executive branch seemed to take on itself. i would have, for example, let's take the program with which i'm most familiar, the terrorist rveillance program, you referred to as warrantless surveillance. i was aggressive but it was a small group. i would have expanded that group and made them embrace one or another solution. it may not he bn the identical solution, but i would have made the other political branch step up and ut the money on the bar. >> we're out of time. we could talk about this all morning. >>sounds like a great debate.

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♪

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♪ >> it is a ponzi scheme, to tell our kids that are 25 or 30 years old today, you are paying into a program that's going to be there. anybody that's for the status quo with social security today is involved with a monstrous lie to our kids.

it's not right. >> our nominee has to be someone who isn't committed to abolishing social security, but is committed to saving social security. we have always had, at the heart of our party a recognition that we want to care for those in need. our seniors have the need of social security. >> you cannot keep the status quo in place and not call it anything other than a ponzi scheme. it is. that is what it is. americans know that. regardless of what anyone says, it's not and that's provocative, maybe it's time to have some provocative language in this country. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. welcome back to "morning joe" as you take a live look at another rainy day in new york city. >> yeah, great. >> back with us, we have mike barnicle and harold ford, jr. to cheer you up, along with mark halperin in los angeles. >> i'm not going to say what most people are saying. i'm going to ask you what you're saying. who won the debate last night? >> i think mitt romney was the

strongest. >> that's what most people are saying. >> this is a two person race. rick perry, you can say he more than survived. romney, i thought wasn't quite flawless but very strong and was smart enough after perry did what he did social security, stopped the engagement to make sure social security would be the headline of the debate. romney went into this with some pressure on him and i thought he did quite well. >> what about rick perry? everybody looking at rick perry, i thought heas a bit clunky when it came to that social security answer. you can say it's a ponzi scheme, but then if you really want social security to survive for tens of millions of americans in this generation to the next, you present a cure. we never really heard that. he just kept saying it's a ponzi scheme. >> present the cure and reassure the recipients of social security it will be there for you. he didn't balance the rhetoric

the way you have to if you're someone advocating fundamental change to the program. he could have not backed off the book. he could have said given social security's condition today it is a ponzi scheme. that's what a lot of americans think, but fail to reassure in a way that's going to turn a lot of heads within the party. the romney campaign in the spin room last night, they couldn't have been clearer on the record, up front. they think this is the beginning of the end of rick perry's campaign. >> he's trying to play to a very small base who disagrees with ronald reagan, who said in 1983 that we have to ensure that social security continues for generations to come. mike barnicle, what was your take on the debate? who won? who lost? >> at the end of the evening, it occurred to me if you were watching that debate for the first time, in your mind, you were thinking which of these candidates appearing on tv could be president of the united states? you were trying to read into your own comfort level who could

be president, it would be romney. by far. >> by a long shot. >> no one else on the stage. it is a two person race. i agree with mark there. the interesting aspect to me is huntsman for 2016 off of last night. >> you were impressed by huntsman as well? >> i wasn't impressed by him. i was fairly impressed by him. >> you couldn't hear his teeth chattering this time. >> come on now. >> he's playing long ball. >> rick perry, unfortunately for rick perry is that the clip, ponzi scheme, in this age, that's the clip. that's the clip that's used. >> it's okay though, as mark halperin said for rick perry to say social security is a ponzi scheme the way it's set up right now. the numbers don't add up. >> sure. >> that said, we can take some steps moving forward that can ensure that this generation and next generation will know that social security will be there for them and their parents and their grandparents.

he's not doing that right now because he wants to send a message and he wants to send a message to a small group of people that he wants to get rid of social security. >> he was also fixated on sticking on what was in his book. it was kind of a severe statement again with no follow-up and no prescription. >> is it fair to say he was not nimble on his feet? >> yes. >> a little too -- >> he had his feet in cement. he was spitting out -- >> his attacks on romney. he tried to go there, but romney was ready on the issue of job creation, they both went after their own records. while you thought he might have gotten mitt romney on this, mitt romney fired back without missing a beat. take a listen. >> states are different. texas is a great state. texas has zero income tax. texas has a right to work state, a republican legislature, a republican supreme court. texas has a lot of oil and gas in the ground. those are wonderful things, but governor perry doesn't believe he created those things.

if he tried to say that, it would be like al gore invented the internet. >> as a matter of fact, george bush and his predecessor created jobs at a faster rate than you did. >> harold ford, what was your takeaway? >> similar to what's been said around the table. the questions around science that last night rick perry questioned global warming and the science around it, you couple that with the comment about ben bernanke and -- >> calling him a traitor. >> he said it was treasonous acts and people in texas would treat him poorly if he were to come to texas. you couple that with last night, a lot of people were surprised with how romney stood firm. it made him look far more presidential. finally, huntsman looked good, but this is mitt romney's race now. mitt romney needed this kind of challenge. perry, they all say, people that

know him, say he's a tenacious, audacious, touch campaigner. he has to be to beat last night's performance but a cumulative effect of lack of serious comments. >> it's a great point which leads to the question, mark halperin, who are his national advisers, because they seem to be running a race that would do fairly well in the panhandle of texas, but not on the national stage, not even in a republican primary, not even in a republican primary where the tea party has a disproportionate impact. if you take the social security ponzi scheme statement and it's a horrific lie and it goes against american values, and ben bernanke is treasonous, and united states senators should not be elected democratically by the american people, we could go on all day. these are not -- not only is

this not going to help you win in swing states in the general election, this is going to beat you in the republican primary. who is advising him to run a west texas campaign nationally? >> look, one of the reasons he was able to get into this race so late is he has strong national advisers who he's close to but have national campaign experience. i think that if he were running against a stronger front runner like mitt romney, who in some ways, in many ways is still the front runner, someone who hadn't signed into law a health care plan with an individual mandate, these things would be disqualified. he's one on one with a guy who has his own weaknesses. perry, i'm surprised on climate change and social security, totally predictable questions where i'm surprised his answers weren't as good as they could have been without changing any of his positions. but remember, he still brings a lost strengths here. i don't think his answer on climate change or his answer on

social security in the short term are going to cause him to no longer be the national front runner. he's lucky there's another debate right around the corner. he can clean these things up, but he's never going to change. he's always going to be west texas. when george bush ran for president, his advisers knew texas was a problem. americans have at least an ambivalent view of texas, some have a negative view. bush tried to play the texas part down, talk more about his record. perry will never do that. he's pure texas. >> i'm not saying this. i love texas. i love west texas. there are a hell of a lot of people in texas that would be great leaders nationwide, but rick perry doesn't even, i think, represent west texas very well when he says some of these things, willie, that are disqualifying. he's the front runner right now. you know what was so fascinating is the front runner from three weeks ago, michele bachmann almost invisible last night.

>> disappeared. >> she's gone. >> we're less than one month out. her victory at the iowa straw poll where she had all the momentum, back to perry one second, mike murphy tweeted something last night. he wrote "perry very good in gop primary. went on offense. total stumblebum. how does he win a general election? >> he does not win a general election. this is one of those things that mayo fepd a lot of people. i'm sorry i offended a lot of people when i said the same thing about michele bachmann a few weeks ago. rick perry does not win a general election. >> isn't that his biggest liability? last night, i understand it's his first debate. fine. i get that. you almost have like a subliminal line across the bottom of the screen to republican delegates when romney and perry are pictured together going back and forth, and the line would say do you want to scratch a sore, that would be

rick perry. or do you want to win? that would be romney. >> the problem is that a lot of conservatives lined up behind john mccain four years ago. that still stings, a guy they didn't consider to be a conservative, a guy that teamed up with ted kennedy on a lost different things. a guy that loved at the time, sticking a sharp stick in the conservative base. like goldwater, he had a disconnect. i'm just saying that's what a lot of conservatives are saying i'm going to get behind a guy that was a liberal governor of massachusetts? so i think mark's right. that's why it's hard to make the final dive into the arms of mitt romney. >> do you think perry's presence in the race helps romney in a strange and competitive way? having been in competitive primaries, it's a good thing to sharpen your skills. >> explain that, because the

first time i ran, i had like 87 people in the republican primary and there was one democrat and everybody said that's going to be a nightmare for us. explain why that was the best thing that happened? >> it's like having a lot of preseason games before the real game, it's an opportunity to show the republican base you can be tough. it's the first time romney's been challenged in a way. i think the bachmann challenge is serious or was serious, but this challenge from perry is different. he has money, national name. he brings the kind of cache to the race. this has been good for romney and hopefully from a republican standpoint, he can get stronger. >> meika, there's a big difference between mitt romney beating a republican

congresswoman, it's another thing to beat a texas governor who's been there for ten years who has tons of money, who has a great jobs record. if mitt romney beats perry, he is a giant killer. that helps him going into the race. >> i always thought these sort of one term wonders or one hit wonders hurt them and help romney. but days before the anniversary of 9/11, i'm surprised that they didn't talk about afghanistan. we've been talking here at "morning joe" for weeks about how to reflect on 9/11 ten years later, sort of a difficult day for our country, but an important day to reflect. i was actually struck by a song that you wrote, because joe writes songs, this one he wrote a week after 9/11 but you never finished it until now. >> yeah, as we were coming up to the anniversary, finished it.

we decided we could get a video of just a way to remember, so we did that, and also we wanted to pull in a group that willie has -- a great group, operation mend willie that we talked about before. >> operation men that care for warriors who come back, severely wounded warriors. much appreciated. ucla medical center. >> what you're about to see is our tribute to 9/11 ten years later. >> a big hand to john tower who put this together. incredible work. ♪ ♪

all i once knew came tumbling down ♪ ♪ now that face on the wall ♪ is a ghost in a hall ♪ of a place where he never comes round ♪ ♪ and what would you guess about a stranger's caress ♪ ♪ that reminds me of what we used to be ♪ ♪ at the end of the hour when i'm drained of all power ♪ ♪ i still find a reason to believe ♪ ♪ ♪ i would sit listening alone to that message on the phone ♪ ♪ said a prayer then he i

whispered good-bye ♪ ♪ now our boy is a man ♪ and i call him when i can ♪ how i hope that he don't hear me cry ♪ ♪ and what would you guess about a stranger's caress ♪ ♪ that reminds me of what we used to be ♪ ♪ at the end of the hour when i'm drained of all power ♪ ♪ i still find a reason to believe ♪ ♪ and still i cry underneath

september skies ♪ ♪ ten years gone but my nightmare goes on ♪ ♪ in an endless war tell me please how many more ♪ ♪ have to die before my sweet boy comes home ♪ ♪ and what would you guess about a stranger's caress that reminds me of what we used to be ♪ ♪ at the end of the hour ♪ when i'm drained of all power ♪ ♪ i still find a reason to believe ♪ ♪ ♪ at the end of the hour when i'm drained of all power ♪

♪ i still find a reason to believe ♪ [ cat meows ] [ woman ] ♪ i just want to be okay ♪ be okay, be okay ♪ i just want to be okay today - ♪ i just want to know today - [ whistles ] ♪ know today, know today - [ cat meows ] - ♪ know that maybe i will be okay ♪ [ chimes ] travelers can help you protect the things you care about... and save money with multi-policy discounts. are you getting the coverage you need... and the discounts you deserve? for an agent or quote, call 800-my-coverage... or visit travelers.com. while i took refuge from the pollen that made me sneeze. but with 24-hour zyrtec®, i get prescription strength relief from my worst allergy symptoms. so lily and i are back on the road again. with zyrtec® i can love the air®.

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♪ >> welcome back. 22 past the hour. joining us now from capitol hill, we have the senior democratic senator from new york, senator chuck schumer. it's good to have you on the show this morning. i see that you have a piece in politico which i would like to read from, where is poll's unity after september 11th. you say the ability of our

political system to muster the will to take actions necessary for the common good has degenerated to a place light years away from our response to september 11th. we vowed never to forget, but our politics has. some may say it's like riding a bike and our politics will retrieve a higher sense of purpose. since september 11th other tragedies have not impelled us to rise above pettiness and come together. >> i would say that makes a lot of sense and rings true. >> no doubt about it. we can't say how do we get back there, but we all remember what a remarkable time it was after september 11th. america did come together. but god, ten years later, it's hard to imagine a time that our political system has been more dysfunctional. >> yeah. it would be worthwhile for us to think, god forbid, if another attack occurred, would we

respond like we ask ten years ago? we came together, we looked forward at solutions not back at blame. what would happen today? would it degenerate within a month and every side was blaming one another and we would be paralyzed again? it's worthwhile to recall that spirit. i remember being in the oval office with george bush. i told him new york city needed $20 billion. without blinking he said you got it and he stuck by it for years. democrats did the same. a lot of us didn't like parts of the patriot act but we had to come together and things had to be done. we didn't say we're holding it up unless we get our way completely. people came together in a whole lot of different ways and in ways that, you know, made the country stronger and better. so the question is would we be able to do that again? i think it's helpful for us to look at that. obviously, the economic crisis we have is different. we didn't lose 3,000 people, we weren't attacked, there wasn't a

common enemy. that's all true. the things that have been part of america when we have had a crisis, coming together, forward thinking, practical, nonidealogical, my way or the highway, would we be able to summon those? >> how do we do that? when i talk to you individually, mika and i go to the hill and we talk to you oror talk to you oren hatch. i think they mean every biflt what they say, they hate the way politics have degenerated. collectively everybody getting together and the sniping starts and soon it evolves into full scale political warfare. what is the biggest impediment to working the way it did ten years ago as you said? >> that's the question that i

get asked when i go back home. that's the question we ask one another, you know lamar alexander and i started this little room where democrats and republicans get together over a little wine and cheese after sessions and we ask each other that question there. nobody has come up with a clear answer. you can blame a little bit of this and a little bit of that, but i think it's helpful to use the prism of 9/11 to show that we can get it back, and to look at, i think it's useful to ask the question, if god forbid it happened again, how would we respond? how would we summon the best in us rather than the worst in us and use that to deal with this crisis here, which is an economic crisis, but a serious one. >> senator, may i ask, is it possible that the best has not been summoned in us from our leaders? >> exactly. mika, we have a over 200 year history in always summoning the

best and rising to a crisis. the one thing i think still is all american everywhere is optimism. we still believe ultimately that we can succeed. i think if we focused on some of the good things, even in the smoke and fire of that terrible tragedy, it might move us a little bit in the direction. there's a yearning for it. every member i've spoken to this week since we've come back from break, the number one question people had is how can you guys fix this stuff? i think we got to focus on that a little. 9/11 is an appropriate time to do it. again, the way to look at it, the way at least it's helpful for me to look at, that's why i wrote that op-ed, would we paralyze our nation and are we doing that now? mike? >> senate, what is it about the congress that it cannot get what the country has gotten months

ago, years ago? that the social fabric of this country today, in other events, certainly not similar to september 11th, but the social fabric of this country is torn by unemployment, by a feeling of frustration and sometimes hopelessness among people about the future. what is it that the congress doesn't get? >> i think too many in the congress think that paralysis will actually lead to success for them. and that's not going to happen. what the congress doesn't get is that the american people are practical and want problems solved. if you don't do that, you pay a price, whichever party and whichever ideology. there are too many who think, i believe, right now, that doing nothing is the way to political success. standing pat and saying if i don't get my way, i'm not going to budge. therefore, that will be the past and that will be the past to

success, that's wrong. i do believe the 2012 elections will prove it. i don't know how they will come out but i believe they will prove that. i wish people could realize that a little earlier. >> to do the instant of what you just said, am i correct, a certain percentage of people in congress, house and senate, who would rather see barack obama defeated than something beneficial done for the country as a whole? >> i think that is true. absolutely true. i'm sure there are some on their side who would say the same of people on our side, but i believe that's all too true. i thought about this and i put it in the speech i'm going to give on the floor. during the iraq war, many of us came to be very much opposed to the iraq war, but we rooted for america to win. i was against the war but i wanted our soldiers to win. you look at the analogy today,

you get the feeling some people want the economy to fail to prove their point. that's a very bad thing. >> wow, senator chuck schumer, thank you very much. your piece in politico making a really important point as we are just days away to the ten year, if you can believe it, ten years ago, 9/11 occurred. thank you very much. come back soon. >> thanks. >> the architect designing the new world trade center memorial, we're going to talk to michael arad. keep it here on "morning joe." [ horn honks ]

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♪ >> history will look back on how we pulled together as a country, as a city, what we build. the memorial will be something that people will look at the way we look at central park and say how could you not have it? it must have been here forever. >> that was a clip from nova documentary engineering talking about what's been happening at ground zero. joining us now the designer of the september 11th memorial in new york, michael arad. it really -- it's incredible to go down there and i think the mayer's words do reflect a sense of place that it's been there for awhile.

what a long road it's been for you. >> it has been a long road, but it's also been a tremendous privilege to be involved in this project. it wouldn't have happened without people like the mayor becoming involved and taking this on. >> we're looking at the water falls which you really have to go there to take it in and to feel the way that you have chosen to help remember. what was the hardest part about this process? there was a lot of controversy, obviously a highly emotionally charged issue to get involved in. in some ways, at times, was it too much? >> it was very difficult, but i think the difficulties were also the field that kept you going forward. this is such an emotional project. i think the issue that was most difficult to grapple with that concerned family members the most is how are we going to

arrange the names of the victims around these voids. it took a long time to find the right way to do it. what we ended up doing is reaching out to family members and asking them if there are names of other victims which they would like to see next to the name of the person they lost and bring personal meaning into the arrangement of the names around the memorial. see how friends and family members next to each other, co-workers and people who commuted together, died together that day. no designer could have come up with an arrangement like that on their own. it had to be the process of reaching out, asking people to participate. taking all of these requests and very carefully arranging the names to meet each and every one of them. that was over a year to do that. >> to see it is to look at an actual work of art as opposed to an architectural project, at least in my mind. can you explain how your mind worked? how did it go from, you know, what was inside your head,

feeling it, to what we see now today? >> you know, i was here in new york during the attacks and very, very much affected by what i saw, not just that day, but in the response. started to think about a memorial a few months after the attack. this was before there was a competition. it was something i wanted to do for myself, to sort of come to terms with what i had seen. this image that came to me that was in my mind was the surface of the hudson river torn open forming two square voids and the water falling into the voids. it was an inexplicable image. water doesn't do that, for a year, i sketched it and built a small model that captured the idea of a flat surface torn open forming two squares. once i finished that investigation, i took that model and set it on a high shelf and forgot about it for awhile. i came back to it a year later when there was a competition for

the design of the site. i thought of my own experiences in public spaces here in new york, like union square, like washington square that allowed us to come together and respond as a community to what we had seen that day. i thought these public spaces, they have this incredible role in our society, of not just bringing us together physically in one space but allowing us to respond together. i wanted to bring that to the site, those two ideas, the inexplicable absence but doing it in a way that tied the site back to the life of the city and let people come in and said this is not just about the past, it's also about the present, about living with this day to day. >> you were working for the new york city housing authority when you submitted this, actually designing police stations, is that right? >> yeah. i was working on psa's police service areas. there used to be a separate housing police that was folded into the nypd but they had an allocation to get the police out

of some of the community spaces within housing areas and put them in their own stations and free up spaces for community facilities. >> you made the leap to this. have you heard from victims' families on this? how things like this that is so emotional can be controversial. what have you heard? >> absolutely. i've met a lot of families throughout this process. by no means is there a universal acceptance of the design, but many of the people i talked to, inspired me and i think throughout this process, it's long and difficult eight year process, it was about hearing people's concerns and maybe not responding exactly with a change they had suggested but trying to understand what concerned them and how we could find a way to keep this memorial true to its intent, but change to accommodate these requests that we got. i think the name arrangement was one of those issues. >> that must have been so

incredibly intense, trying to appeal to the needs of so many different family members who this would probably be their deepest and most personal loss and how to accommodate them. did it work ultimately? or were some desires left? >> i think it worked. >> without resolution? >> i wanted to -- if you think of the arrangement, the names are not arranged alphabetically, not by employer, not even in column in one another. each name has a space around it that is its own. i wanted to highlight that sense of individual loss, and focus on that sort of thing, most personal thing about each and every one of us, our name. as you see one name after another after another, each one of them has a space that belonged to it on the memorial. so many families never received any remains. over 40% of the families of people who died here that day

don't have a grave to go to where they know that that's where their loved one is, so i thought the site had to respond to that need and to give each name a unique geographic location on the memorial. >> ten years later, for those who go down to ground zero and walk around what you've created along with many others, what is it that you hope people leave with? what would make you feel like your job is done? >> what we've tried to build, i think, is in some way the built equivalent of a moment of silence. when you come up to the edge of this void and you see this enormous expanse in front of you, you can only stand at the edge of it, you can't go into the space. you seen that line of names that rings the pools, i think it's going to be a very searing and difficult moment, but it's a moment i hope that will allow you to set aside the concerns

you have every day and focus deeply in a moment of thinking about the past and how that past relates to the present and how we move forward in a way that is -- considers what has happened here and what we can do about it. >> michael, thank you very much. all the best to you. people should definitely get down there. they haven't seen what has happened. it is amazing what you've been able to do. "business before the bell" with simon hobbs is next. ♪ if i can believe everything will soon be like all the fairy tales i've read ♪ ♪ but i feel so lost and naked

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♪ >> america should be a job machine. jobs being created all the time. we should have a job creating machine in america. >> of course! a job machine. it's so easy. it was right in front of our faces. job machine. instead of going to war, we should come out with some sort of a peace machine, and an anti cancer ice cream. you're the smart guy. you're the numbers guy. >> i want to talk to you about our economy. about what's happening to american families. middle income americans, the average america ought to have the highest income in the world. >> you do realize that is

mathematically impossible. the average american, if he was the richest -- you know what [ bleep ]. let's introduce our next segment, oh, my god, rick perry is our next president. >> the weekly jobless numbers are out. let's get a check on "business before the bell" with simon hobbs live at the new york stock exchange. >> if america was a job machine, it could be done with turning up a little faster. we just had the weekly jobless data through the number of people claiming new jobless benefits last week rose to 414,000. it's higher than we expected. it's not great news. it highlights the weakness we have in the economy. the mark is going to open down another 80 points. we have a number of very important things happening today. it's not just obama's speech tonight, that's a focus for not just american markets but world markets. we have ben bernanke speaking this afternoon.

what is that going to do in two weeks' time. we think he's not going to signal that they're ready to move because he doesn't want to preempt the meeting. he has to shore up the consensus. according to this morning's journal, the author is a fed watcher, we assume he's given the inside track. they are suggesting that they're moving towards the idea of this twist, where they increasingly, from their portfolio, buy longer dated maturities to force down interest rates, government interest rates at the 10 year or 30 year level. because the economy is so bad, over the last month and a half, that has already happened. we've gone from 3 to 2%. that may be in anticipation that they will make that move. the idea is you make it easier or cheaper for people to remortgaging and the margin for people to expand. mika, a lot of people would say we're in such a bad situation, even those moves wouldn't have a huge effect. >> bad situation.

i'm reading last friday, i believe, the news came out zero growth. the economy is definitely in a bad situation, but how would you characterize it? are we using the word recession? what is the word we're using? >> i would be reluctant to use the word recession. the fear is we're going into recession but we don't have that written large in any of the data. this is not -- the weekly jobless figure is slightly higher but it's not substantially higher. we're not generating jobs in the economy, but we're not losing them in force at this stage. i don't think yet we're in recession. history may prove we were wrong and the gdp figures were contracting as we spoke now. >> simon, thanks so much. >> wish i could be clearer, guys. sorry. >> it's a muddled situation. simon hobbs on wall street. thank you so much. more "morning joe" straight ahead.

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