experienced. there's no reason for only this video to live on a certain network or certainly channel. i'm grateful for mtv i. was going say that. >> put it here, nowhere else. they said jenks, this speaks to our generation and we want to see that pursued as much as possible. >> i congratulate you on this piece of art, and that you've produced, and this film. and i look forward to seeing you soon. >> thanks. >> thank you for giving us this chance. andrew jenks. tomorrow, a special addition of the"the dylan ratigan show," li from new york. i hope you'll join us. obama to the republicans, let's create some jobs. tonight, let's play "hardball." 5:00 p.m. 5:00 p.m. 5:00 p.m. .

good evening. i'm chris matthews back in washington. leading off tonight, the president's speech. in just two hours, president obama will make his way into the chamber of the house of representatives to tell congress and the country how he will create jobs. the president's plan has a big name. the american jobs act. but will it be big enough, bold enough to turn around the economy, and with it, his presidency? on this first night of the new nfl season, by the way, will the president throw the long ball or keep it taught and go for three yards in a cloud of dust? thus, and plus -- the one thing everyone seems to agree on about last night's debate. it's now a two-man race. perry versus romney. "the washington post" ezra klein breaks it down like this, mitt romney looked like he had already won the republican nomination. rick perry looked like he will win the republican nomination. michele bachmann looked like she was beginning to realize she definitely would not win the republican nomination.

but the surprise of the night, rick perry's doubling down on social security at a ponzi scheme. and a monstrous lie. it may win some tea party support, but can you win a presidency trashing the most popular program ever? tackling that one tonight. plus, suspicions confirmed. talking to a longtime republican staffer on capitol hill who says the republican party really does only care about the rich, and what's worse, he's mounting a campaign of thrill tear flitch an effort to discredit government. an insider speaks. let me finish with why i've begun to bet now it's going to be rick perry as the republican nominee against president obama. we begin tonight here at "hardball" with the president's address to the congress tonight on jobs. wee joined by author and political commentator ron reagan. ron i know you've got a real passion for politics and for belief about our country and where it should be heading.

will this president -- well, will he throw the long ball tonight? go for broke? say it big? do it big? or will he tuck it under his arm that football, and go for three yards and cloud of dust playing it safe? >> chris he has to propose something that actually has a chance of working. that means going big. he should not worry about what the republicans are going to say about that. the republicans in congress are going to say about whatever he proposes. we already know what they're going to say. no. they're not going to do anything. the tough thing, the tricky thing, it seems to me, for the president, is because he's got not just an economic problem here but a political problem as well, and in the setting in which he is speaking, you're not supposed to it be political partisan sorts speeches. at some point after the speech he has to make it clear to the american people there is one party now that does not want jobs -- it doesn't want jobs coming back, does not want the economy to recover until after the election. they explicitly want to keep us

in the dumper until they can get back into the white house. and that's a tricky message for tonight, maybe not so tricky for tomorrow or the next day and the days that follow. >> ron, the old mach vallian rule, better to be feared and that loved. the trouble, if you're not feared a bit, and not feared when you should be feared, people stop loving you as leader. is that president's problem? i wonder if eric cantor ever stays i wake at night, he's the republican hot shot on the hill now, worrying what about obama will do to nim richmond? bring fire to his butt and challenge him at home? does this president have enough fire to launch an attack on any republican? boehner, cantor, mccarthy? like alan west and joe walsh, stick to do them every day of the week? does he have enough fear? >> we're going into to find out. we may not find out tonight. again, it's a tricky setting to do that sort of a thing, but we're going to need to find out in the next few days here. you know, the president, again,

it's always a catch 22 for any president. you have peek pecking at you all the time, but you can't get down in the gutter with them. you have to maintain the prestige of the office, and so when you respond to people like that, it has to be in a very pointed, very specific way. you've got to pick your moment and do it right. the president needs to do that, though. >> okay. you're putting a very fine point on your pen tonight. let me just ask you this -- ron, i'm surprised you're careful of this. do you think there are a lot of republicans without naming them all on capitol hill and in the back rooms up there who wouldn't like us to have a second dip economically? to suffer a second recession in recent history and have president obama pay the price for it? would they like to see things to go really bad? >> yes. yes. let me dull my tip a little bit here and paint a broader brushed picture here. mitch mcconnell was very clear what the priorities for the republican party are. getting rid of obama. wasn't protecting the country,

improving the economy, more jobs. it was getting rid of obama. the only way, have the economy tanking. why would the republicans wank the economy sow start recovering in a way that it would help president obama? they don't. they're rooting for failure. >> yeah. i think a lot of them are. here's the backdrop to the speech tonight. according to the "new york times," many economists blean the country to likely face a double dip right now, double dip recession. "if history the's guide, the odds that american economy is falling into a double-dip recession has risen sharply in recent weeks and may even have reached 50/50. 50%. most ominously job growth has slowed the end of a recession. start of recession. i misspoke there. ron, seems to me you have to ask this question with a sharp point here. do you think when they got the news in the last unemployment number there's been no job growth? which is the beginning of a recession.

some republicans on capitol hill got up, heard that news on the radio going to work and were thrilled? >> yes, yes, absolutely. i'm sure there were fist pumping in the back of limousines as they headed off to work. again they wunt this president to fail and that mines the economy la to continue to fail for another year. >> well, okay. the president speaks tonight. talk about, we don't know the subject. the subject, creating jobs or what is going to come of it. do you think he's going long tonight or going short? >> from what i've been hearing, and you're right, we don't know exactly what he's proposing. from what i'm hearing, sounds medium long. not hugely long. not a dramatic overhaul of the tax cuts, making wealthy people actually pay their taxes. i don't know he's going to specifically go after corporations who have been offshoring and things like that. but we'll find out. but he needs to go long. he can't do small ball any more

and the american people are ready for that. >> great to have you, ronald reagan. thanks for being here. >> good to be here. and steny hoyer, from the house, democratic leader. mr. hoyer, known you forever. you are a meat and poteat ohs democrats, down the middle most of the time, and i have to ask you this question -- do you think the president has it in him to go after the bad guys tonight? to go after the eric cantors and the people rooting for his failure? >> i think the president has it in him to put forth a flam he thinks is going to help, and if mr. cantor or somebody eggs lse opposes it, he's going to be strong in proposing a solution to jobs and the deficit. those are the two messages we heard. people are very afraid. they're fearful that this double dip recession you were just talking with rocn reagan about might occur in their own lives. if their house is under water, they've lost a house, they're in

a depression and know something's got to be done. the issue here, they also know about the deficit. jobs is think number one priority and i expect the president to talk -- ron's probably right -- medium long, not necessarily long, but immediate yum lomedium long about creating jobs, put people back to work and putting them into a position where they can make it in america. that's our agenda in the congress for the house democrats. make it in america. manufacture it in america, grow it in in america, sell it around the world. reinvigorate our manufacturing sector, but we need to put people back to work both in the public and private sector. particularly in the private sector. what we see is the jobs being created in the private sector are being offset by the jobs being lost in the public sector. teachers, police, fire. we can't allow that to happen. and i -- the president's going

to speak to that. >> suppose your party completely dominant and loyal to the president, imagine the next couple of months in the house, what will the president do on the economy? having all the meetings you've had with him, have you been able to figure out he deeply think needs to be done, if nobody was standing in his way? what would we do? because we need to know this? >> i'm not sure exactly what he would do. clearly what he would do, i ter have two deficit reductions commissions. debt and deficit, problems in our country. what both said in a bipartisan way, you've got to get the economy moving first. why? because as the economy tanks, revenues tank, and the deficits go up. so you can't do one without the other. i think in an ideal world, the president would invest those kinds sums in those areas where

he believes will bring the economy back. >> opposite number here's. here speaker boehner and majority leader eric cantor striking a very nice tone, if will you, against the president. they've been very tough on him in the past. listen to the opposition here. the republicans. >> we know that republicans and democrat, not going to agree on everything. but i do think that the people of my district and this country expect the fact that we're not going to let those differences get in the way of coming together for common sense solutions. >> i've encouraged my colleagues to come tonight and to listen to the president. he is the president of the united states, and i believe that all members ought to be here. >> well, what's behind this change of tone? according to politico, one gop leadership aide put it quite blunt p bluntly. >> the guy is already sinking. we don't need to throw him an

anvil. that's tough. they think they've got the president on the run. is that an accurate picture of what you think, or have they returned to civility? >> think know the american people want action and want people working together to get people back to work. they don't think the republican policy, certainly the first nine months of this year, have done anything to get people back to work. we haven't had a jobs bill to speak of on the floor of the house, and, therefore, i think what they're saying is, look, we understand when people talk about the president's failure, now, what that really means is the economy of the country is going down. jobs are not being created. they may perceive it politically as the president's failure, if the people around the country don't have a job they see it as a failure of government generally and their own personal failure. so i would hope and i think the president would hope and i think the rhetoric used by mr. boehner

and mr. cantor was positive. i hope we stay positive. very frankly, chris, let me remind you, when president bush came to the congress in september of '08 and said we have a crisis confronting the country, we have a crisis that may lead to a depression, and keep paying for the american people what did democrats do? responded in a positive way and supported president bush's program. it was a tough vote for the democrats. frankly, the republicans didn't take it to their own president, and as speaker boehner said, this is our president, all of our presidents, republicans and democrats, and we're in this together. the president will much more importantly be the american people's success as we create jobs. >> well, let's see if the republicans respond in the same manner, in avoiding a second -- a second recession a second deficit if you will. thank you, steny hoyer of maryland. joining me right now, in fact, joining me at 7:00 eastern

for a special "hardball," at the 7:00 eastern hour as we await the president's address, which comes about 7:15, by the way. coming up, after last night's pivotal debate on the republican side, where does it go from here? there is a point, we can see where this is heading. can rick perry unite the tea party and the establishment? the eastern and western conferences if will you of the party? or can mitt romney make the case that he's the only guy of those two especially who can actually defeat president obama because of what may well be the already spoken excessiveness of mr. perry? you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪ [ male announcer ] unlike some car companies, nissan is running at 100%, which means the most innovative cars are also the most available cars. nissan. innovation for today.

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back to "hardball." going forward the republican contest looks like a two-man race now. rick perry and mitt romney dominating last night's debate. what do their performances tell us about their candidacies and what can we take away from the other candidates like michele bachmann who may be trying to stay relevant in the fight. our panelists with us. thank you both. i still treasure that -- >> don't we all. >> the big story. a look at interplay last night involving john harris of politico and governor perry. watch this. everybody's talking about this.

it's him doubt be the scientific evidence of global warming in last night's debate. let's listen to the governor and to john harris. >> just recently in new hampshire you said the weekly or daily scientists are coming forward to questioned idea that human activity is behind climate change. which scientists have you found most credible on this subject? >> i do agree there is -- the science is not settled on this. the idea that we would put americans' economy at jeopardy base and scientific theory that's not settled yet is, to me is just -- it is nonsense. i mean -- i mean, i tell somebody, just because you have a group of scientists that stood up and said here is the fact, galileo got outvoted for a spell. >> well, you know, he reminds me of the kid in school that didn't do the reading assignment. and is committing basically b.s. going off, reaching off to galileo.

the question, after all these years of studying man's impact on climate in the country, you've got to reach a conclusion if you're in public life and he refuses to reach that conclusion. >> we were out there and saw the war of the worlds between science and faith. okay? and he's not just the kid who didn't read the assignment. he's questioning the right of the teacher to make the assignment in the first place. an article of faith with the tea party people and perry is going at every tea party voter he can. the climate change is a hoax. part of their new ten commandments. one is, if climate change is a hoax, but -- >> why is it so close to religious beliefs? >> partly because if you want to get technical about it in terms of god and creation, that's part of it. but it's just a questioning of the scientific elite. many times, what, at least two times last night rick perry waved away that issue to say that's something for intellectuals. we have have an intellectual

discussion about that at some point. anti-elitist that takes on any power in society purporting to dictate to including the scientific community. >> this isn't a debate over left and right. it's a debate over did you do your homework in school? and is that hokework valid. what's your take? >> i think when the tea party, folks from the right hear climate change they actually hear climate text. they try to undermine the science of it. that's what you saw him doing last night, but i think this puts him in the main stream of the tea party and i think a lot of americans, frankly, doubt some of this climate change science. you know, there were some reports out there -- >> they don't want to know it. >> a lot of americans don't necessarily do -- >> the additional irony, rick perry in an earlier lifetime was a supporter of al gore.

>> yeah. and listen to this. a member of the tea party. >> starting with you, governor romney, are you a member of the tea party? >> i don't think you carry cards in the tea party. i believe in a lot of -- in a lot of what the tea party believes in. the tea party believes the government's too big, taxing too much and that we ought to get to the work of getting americans to work. so if the tea party is for keeping government small, and spending down, and helping us create jobs, then, hey, i'm for the tea party. >> boy, there's a guy that made a clear answer. how long it took him to say he's not a tea partier. >> i'm not running in that conference. >> not in that conference. the other conference from rick perry. but i thought the important thing for the horse race, romney did it in a very well thought out, politically well thought out way. his best performance in terms of thinking out the politics of it and the way he could -- uchbl s >> you know what? we've been in this business so long. grab an issue, answer it with

gut and feeling. the other, brilliantly handle the issue. he handled the issue. >> all the -- >> you see a guy out there handling an issue. they say he's not my guy. >> of course. >> playing a game here. i'm in the tea party and proud of it. i know they don't have membership cards. what a mickey mouse dhaumt was. it's not captain midnight's club. you don't have to have a card. it's a question whether you want to embrace -- are you part of those people out there or aren't you? he said i'm not weren't of them, although i embrace some of their views this is a time to draw a line -- >> why did he say it? >> he knows embracing the tea party is trouble for him in the general election. she is a candidate running in the general -- >> right. already thinks he's won -- if something's going to happen, vaguely something's going to happen to rick perry to blow the -- >> it is naive, because whatever happens, and whoever the republican nominee is, david

axelrod and the democrats will spend all their time pinning him to the tea party and supporters and so on. >> speaking of michele bachmann, here she miss an opportunity to hit mitt romney. one of the moderators -- i forget which one, we'll see, offered her a chance to slap this guy and she didn't do it. just ignored it. here's the answer. >> is governor romney the support of an individual mandate in massachusetts is that disqualifying from the point of conservative voters? >> what i want to obamacare took over 1/6 of the american economy, and with all due respect to the governors, issuing an executive order will not overturn this massive loss. this will take a very strong, bold leader in the presidency who will lead that effort. >> that's a hypnotic michele bachmann. simply answering the question based on, almost like angela

lance bur lansbury. seriously. that wasn't a response to the question of john harris from politico. he gave her a direct chance to go after mitt romney and say you're part ever the problem. you did the health care plan. it was like she was zoned into this answer. >> we've seen it from her before. she answers the question she wish shes got rather than the question she actually gets. >> the queen of spades. >> what she wanted to do there is get to the her talking point. >> which is an excellent -- >> that she knows how to get things done in washington and has a titanium spine. surprised she didn't mention her titanium spine there. >> why didn't she go after perry? no chance to hit perry on that one? >> no. why didn't she go after romney? >> either one. >> didn't want to go after romney because she's realizes she's got to get somebody to slow down rick perry. there's no prtdage -- >> it wasn't in her league game? >> huh? >> not in the her game. i do believe, guys, quickly.

there's two fights going on here. who's going to be the republican standard candidate, looks like mitt romney. and the more dramatic, ideological, that's rick perry, both winning conferences. am i right? >> no, i -- >> yeah. >> that's why you're here. thank you. up next, what was rick perry talking about when he brought up galileo last night? boy, that was a reach out. i guess to show he's sophisticated. we'll try to figure that out next in the "sideshow." he ain't no galileo. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. you name it.

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back to "hardball." let's get to the "sideshow." first up, leaving it open fon interpretation. let's hear again how rick perry responded to a question on climate change during last

night's republican debate and his somewhat incrudable reference to galileo. >> the science is not settled on this. the idea that we would put americans' economy at jeopardy, based on scientific theory that's not -- settled yet, to me it's just, it's nonsense. i mean -- and i tell somebody, i said, just because you have a group of scientists that stood up and said here is the fact. galileo got outvoted for a spell. >> yeah. that's a "saturday night live" takeoff, i think. anyway, seems like dan quayle working there. and defense against climate change? what could we be getting at? comparing to the climate change skeptics buy galileo or comparing himself to galileo? did he make a history gaffe and confuse it with his predecessor

copernicus? do they need more evidence before being taken seriously? we know galileo, a man of science, a hero. rick perry is not galileo. for the big number, during the debate at the reagan library, the candidates spard on afltd issues. one name kept popping up as an example they about strive to follow. >> ronald reagan was committed to america being a force for good. >> ronald reagan flup flew this plane i. served during the reagan campaign i strongly supported ronald reagan. >> the message of ronal reagan. >> ronald reagan made a deal. >> if president reagan were here. >> referencing president range. >> we're in the reagan library. >> president range. >> president reagan. >> ronald reagan that would be ronald reagan. >> the reagan tradition. >> i'm with president reagan. >> wow. that's right. ronald reagan was the hot topic. how many times was the former president mentioned by the

candidates throughout the evening? it seemed like more, but only 24 times. the only candidate to refrain, mitt romney with newt gingrich taking the lead. 24 times last night. lots of respect for ronald reagan last night. up next, doubling down on social security as a "ponzi scheme" is that going to help now but hurt later? the hot one that started last night. twoo tweeted on it as soon as i ladder it. social security is a ponzi scheme. rick perry said that last night. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. boxes from the postal service. if it fits it ships anywhere in the country for a low flat rate. that is easy. best news i've heard all day! i'm soooo amped! i mean not amped. excited. well, sort of amped. really kind of in between. have you ever thought about decaf? do you think that would help? yeah. priority mail flat rate shipping starts at just $4.95, only from the postal service.

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i'm scott wapner with your cnbc market wrap. stocks slumping to a negative finish. the dow tumbling 119 points,

standard & poor's 12 and the nasdaq, 19. federal reserve chairman ben bernanke failed to provide new hints on policy at his speech in minnesota. the dollar climbed to a two-month high against the euo , interest rates unchanged in heights in april and june. fedex and boeing moved lower despite reports fed eaks may look to upgrade its jets. google edged higher on word it's buying the 32-year-old restaurant service. slipping despite trimming loss as charges offset revenue. yahoo! shares surged on reports co-founder and ex ceo jerry yang is trying to buy the company and a major shareholder called for an overhaul of the board of directors. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to chris matthews and "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." the republican debate last night was over social security and whether it amounts to a ponzi scheme or not. let's listen to it. >> it is a ponzi scheme to tell our kids that are 25 or 30 years old today, you paying into a program that's going to be there, anybody that's for the status quo with social security today is involved with a mons r monstrous lie to our kids and it's not right. >> -- isn't committed to abol h abolishing associate security b social security. we want to care for those in need and the seniors have the need for social security. >> you cannot keep them employed and call it anything other than a ponzi scheme. americans know that. regardless what people say, oh, it's nos, that's provocative, maybe it's time to have

provocative language in this country. >> wow. rick perry with the ponzi scheme characterization and how will republicans roll out if social security is a major issue in the campaign and how does that affect president obama's campaign? strategist steve mcmahon, for the record books for those watching and respect your thinking, was that a mistake? >> yeah, he made a mistake. it's -- it wasn't a mistake in what he said, but with what he didn't say. if you're going to use language like ponzi scheme in describes social security you better have a plan in place to actually save it. the republican -- >> a ponzi scheme, by the way, for most to understand it, is generally meant to be something like a chain letter. you basically pay the next person off with the money you just got from anybody else but it's not making money. >> and eventually someone is holding an empty bag. if you're going to talk about

reforming social security. both parties should be doing, because it's going broke. you need to talk about reforming it in order to save it. the republican base wants to hear candidates talk openly and honestly about social security reform to save it. they will reward you -- marco rubio was re-elected -- >> sounds like he hates the idea of taxing in their working years to get them benefits in their retiring years. he doesn't like that. >> he suggests that might be unconstitutional. i don't normally advise republican candidates. here's a piece of free advise for rick perry. if you're going to get involved with generational warfare, stand with the generation that votes, not with the one that doesn't vote. the older people who rely on social security, they aren't interested in electing a president who thinks it's a failure. that's the bigger problem -- >> do you think -- you're both

partisan. everyone that watches this show is partisan. do you believe he can't fix it? can he fix it? >> he can probably fix the ponzi scheme part, because the ponzi scheme is people probably, many people would agree with that. the thing he can't walk back is what mitt romney cleverly and smartdly lamped on to, in his book he says by any measure ecu. he's not backing away from that. >> sounds like ronald reagan. didn't like medicare and then toned it down. >> that's when he won. i think -- the other question for me, i think he can recover from this certainly. there's a long way to go, but if you're going to -- if you're going to use incendiary language and you don't have a plan to actually save it, you've got to be very careful, because voters -- >> half the people that watch

the show are in that age group and some are younger. the genius of franklin roosevelt, maybe one of the greatest two or three, i think, was that he figured out social security hi to be foreeverybody. means test, pay for it while you work. when you retired and have no other form of income, this will help you out. a lot were impoverished without social security back then. then people started to live past 65. even the great franklin roosevelt didn't make it to 65. in those days if you made it to 65 you were lucky. today lots of people fortunately make it past 65 and live into their 80s and 90s and still getting checks. the system doesn't work that way anymore. how do they deal it is a ponzi scheme in the sense that the money paid out every day is coming from people who have paid in. it's not being made -- >> absolutely right. you will never get back the amount of money that you paid into it under current

structures. >> certainly poor people did pretty well. >> that's the idea. >> much more than they paid. one of the problem. the other problem is that for a long period of time. you know this, chris. you worked on the hill. people paid into the social security trust fund and it was set aside. politicians decided to get the money and use it for other things and will make it up later. borrowed against it. it's become a ponzi scheme, if that's what it is, it's a criminal enterprise, because the people in washington haven't done what they were supposed to do. >> and perry, he's not crazy, by does he think this works to call it monstrous lie. infuriating language and there are older people in south florida going, wait. i depend on that for my income and don't like it being called a ponzi scheme? >> this is the tone he's used in campaigns in texas. >> your candidate. >> handling it by 22 points.

worked in primaries and in general elections. >> why does texas like this language, ponzi scheme language? >> aggressive. a certain swagger to it. it's big. >> does he have a problem if he buckles and begins to say that was the wrong language a big mod rateder, brian williams gets limb to say on a snd show, david gregory, i should have used other words. does that weaken him? >> no. he can say it is a ponzi scheme but i want to talk be my plan to actually save it. >> in that way -- >> you guys -- >> forget it. >> it's on tape. that's a problem. he's going to see that a lot. listen, rick perry is an interesting candidate but never really run a general election. i don't mean he hasn't been in a general election. in texas, winning for the primary, not a federal election. >> he's the favorite or not? >> i'm not sure. >> you think he's the favorite?

>> i think. >> the danger perry presents, all of these issue, these are all side issues. distransactions. republicans should be talking about jobs in the economy. if we're talking about science, ponzi schemes, all of this, this is a distraction. the message should be -- >> got our attention. >> certainly did. >> we're going to listen to this guy in the next couple of weeks. you're right in business. great time have you on. spent years on capitol hill, 28 years, only cares about the rich. this is the inside man. by the way, saying republicans are engaged in what he calls political terrorism to try to discredit the united states government and he's coming here next to talk about what he's discovered as longtime republican. i think he'll disagree with mr. harris here. this is "hardball" only on msnbc.

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isn't it? >> that's what it is. it's what you got cooked up. >> the movie "double indemnity". according to how both political parties work in washington, but he sees his harshest criticism for his own side, republicans saying, as bads his worst critics fear they are. and worked for the gop 28 years, retired in june safely have and recently wrote an exclusive article. also with us, from the adai"dai beast," and reporter. do they only care about the rich? >> pretty much so. they're entire tax policy is pretty much skewed to defending the interests of the rich, and they use a lot of clever verbiage to disguise that fact. we don't want to raise taxes on

anybody. at the same time, they complain that the bottom 50% aren't paying until federal income tax. >> loves that, baby. loves to count on that. why -- most americans are not rich. most republicans are not rich. my family was republican growing up. why do they look out for the rich when most of their own members aren't rich? why are they in bed with the rich people as a purpose? >> because they provide us money. because our political system is broken. both parties a look at political tourism. you write, i could see as nar as last november that republican party would use the debt limit vote. in other words a pro sewed you're used 87 times cents end of world war ii in order to concoct an entirely artificial fiscal crisis. then use that fiscal cries toys get what they wanted by literally holding the united states and global economies as hostages.

so it was calculated from day one? the minute they won the house? >> yes, it was. >> michael, reporting on this. where did you find this guy? >> well he came into my inbox somehow or another over the weekend. i'm glad it was a fascinating piece. >> he is the inside man. this is like the tobacco industry. >> yeah. >> not like russell crowe here. >> this is not like me writing it. you have been saying these things i noticed. >> i think a lot of the cartoon notions about each political party -- now let's look at this thing. this, i think, is evil. this is the dumping on the very republican government. the democratic form of government. democratic form of government. you claim that they are planning to discredit government itself. you write a staffer once said to you, should republicans succeed in destructing the senate from doing its job it would lower congress's generic favorbility rating among the american people by sabotaging the reputation of

the institution of government, the party that is an ally against the government would come out the relative winner. in other words, it's horrible. it's horrible. all we have in our democracy is the way we govern ourselves, that's it. that separates us from barbarians. >> that is. i'm a historian by training. i understand that democratic institutions are inherently fragile. they operate on good faith. trust. and the spirit of compromise. and once you go down the road of never compromise, you bring down the viability of institutions, you are on the way it something very bad. >> now when i hear this, bachmann, and i don't dislike him personally. she has all these foster kids, good for her. i think she is a good person in that area. she talks about working for the

irs to learn how they work. she talks about them being evil. >> as long ago as teddy roosevelt. they have to keep topping each other to the right. i t wouldn't be surprising to me if someone says they will eliminate the epa. we've gotten almost to that point. >> is it partisan victory talk or true hatred of anything that's public? that's an private club or private business? >> i agree to some that's true. the aircraft you fly on, the food that you eat -- >> i'm not going to say that too off then because i don't call the people on the right fascist too off then. they only like people in the military with guns. >> they worship at the altar of mars. >> anyway, you going to live long after this, you are safely retired, sir mike. so you can now speak the truth.

are there other people that think like you within the republican party that are just keeping their mouths shut. >> absolutely. people are more candid on a sub rosa level. but it is is the herd mentality. it is not that people are individually bad and this is not a grudge match or any sort of score settling on my part. this is because i grew to revere the institution and the people who trash it. they are trashing article one of constitution that they claim to revere. >> wow. great to have you on. thanks for coming. great reporter. thank you very much, coming from the daily beast and from "newsweek." thank you michael and michael. coming up, why i think rick perry will be the obama challenger. we will see, anything can change. i think there is something about the gut on the right that this guy is into, that even a smart guy like romney can't quite

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let me finish to night with the realty of last night. if they aren't happy with the people in the white house -- we the people don't accept fail tour. the question is whether the republican party can come up with an acceptable alternative to president obama. they moved the process from the

preliminaries to picking what these to be the final bracket. the western conference, that being the tea party, and eastern party, that being the establishment party. for the western, governor rick perry looks like the uncontested winner. mitt rom romney is not even a member. i say the same clarity, i see it. looks like romney hasn't won. to the finals between now aent iowa caucuses, this is going to be a ug strel over who speaks best to and for the new republican party. gop that has actually become the home of the tea party. i think right now it is rick perry. with all its successes, he has the gut of the republican right. he has the anger, contempt, deep feelings of animosity. you get the sense he feels what he speaks, long before he speaks it. he is out there on the stump sieging with contempt for washington. mitt romney on the other hand comes across, even after 17 years of running are for