we asked you what you were doing up at this hour. turns out a lot of you are at normal times around the world. >> yeah, it's prime time somewhere. joe in okinawa, japan says it's 7:30 p.m. tonight. another one from melissa. here in hawaii, i'm writing an assignment for my graduate

class. health care administration and watching "way too early." >> aloha. we're up against leno and letterman. i've got a late night show and a prime time show in okinawa. "morning joe" starts right now. throws it! intercepted! and the jets have the ball back in cowboy territory. >> and welcome to "morning joe." mika, i know you were in front of your tv set all day yesterday. the nfl season started. you have that feature red zone. so every time the team gets in the red zone, your channel changes automatically. >> i was not watching that. >> masterpiece theater? what were you watching? good morning, everyone, it's

monday, september 12th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset, we have the executive editor at random house and john meacham back with us. very good to see you. and the editor of nationalmemo.com. >> do you watch football? >> i do. >> what did you watch yesterday? >> i didn't. but i believe in it. >> you believe in watching football. >> joe? any football yesterday? >> i watched tennis. >> oh, can i discuss the angels dropping the fly ball? >> seriously, willie, please, help me out here. did you watch football? >> i didn't see a single second. >> oh, my god! nfl started. >> i didn't see a single second. >> what were you doing, man? >> i was out at a couple of memorial services and couldn't squeeze in the games. >> whatever. whatever. >> true story. >> i don't believe. seriously. memorial services.

come on. i don't believe that for a second. >> read meacham's book last week. >> which one? >> franklin and winston. >> isn't that great? >> read it on the beach. well done. >> did you pay retail? >> i did. walked into a bookstore and bought paper back. >> all right. yesterday, i guess everyone except joe was watching television and going to memorial services. >> well, i did actually go. >> yesterday, thousands -- >> you can also watch football at the same time. >> yes, you can. >> unless you want to try to feel morally superior to everybody else, i didn't have time for football. >> okay. thank you. thousands gathered at ground zero for the tenth anniversary of the september 11th attacks, the tenth anniversary remembrances and also reflection on where things stand on the war on terror and the lessons learned from those attacks. president obama spoke with brian williams on whether the u.s. is safer now ten years later.

>> there's no doubt that we are safer now than we were ten years ago. we are in a much stronger position than we were then, and al qaeda's on a path of defeat. we've taken out huge chunks of their senior leadership, most prominently osama bin laden. but, you know, there's still people out there who would try to hurt americans, who would try to strike at us. and we have to be constantly vigilant. >> did you watch some of the ceremonies? >> you know, i did. i watched with my children the reading of the names. and it was hard. and then we all watched the evening news together. >> yeah. >> and talked about it as a family. my kids were toddlers at the time. and they have slight memories. >> have you ever talked to them because you ran down there immediately after the towers fell. jim who works for wabc was down there for a week. you all didn't see your children for a week. >> for quite a while. for weeks. >> weeks, weeks. had they ever -- had you all

ever talked about that until yesterday? >> time and time again, it's come up. but last night, my younger daughter had some really interesting questions about why they were rebuilding a tower and where the hatred comes from and it was interesting. you know, i think you have to let time pass and let it happen organically with children. but i watched some of my husband's reports on youtube. and it was the first time i realized what he was doing. yeah, exactly where he was. anyhow, the bottom line is i thought the memorial -- and i wondered what you all think -- it's just beautiful and as well done as it could be. the waterfall, everything. >> i saw the -- >> it was very moving. >> brokaw, brian williams and brokaw, i thought john meacham were great yesterday morning, taking us through it. did you see a lot of the coverage? >> i did. and if you haven't seen tom's "new york times" video reflecting on an op-ed he wrote

in september, it's worth going to look at. it's really remarkable. i thought the whole day was fascinating. and moving. and what was interesting on the commentary, this was the first time a lot of the victims' families had something to take away because they could do the rubbing of the memorial. and a simple -- as simple as that seems out of context, it was pretty remarkable -- clearly meant an enormous amount. >> a lot of people who were never be able to bring someone home were able to go find them. so much symbolic value. every part of the experience of seeing the new memorial. >> the other thing if people didn't see it, and i don't know how widely televised it was on saturday. the speeches in shanksville from biden and president clinton and president bush are really worth going back and watching all three. because if you want to feel what

the unity was like however briefly back then, politically, these speeches represent that. >> speaking of unity, it's nice, willie, to see president obama, president bush, the first families together sharing this. >> yes, i think it's always nice to see those especially as divided as we've been and been at each other's throats politically. i had the privilege of going down to one of the fire houses to a mourning service where they lost 15 guys. and they do it every year, it was especially meaningful this year. and i got to meet some of the children of the guys who had died. one kid 10 years old was 6 months old when his dad died. didn't really know his dad. everything he knows he's heard secondhand. everything about the way his dad died he's seen on tv. it was really interesting to talk to some of these kids and their families because they want to talk. they want to talk about their dad or their brother. so it's nice to get the personal element of it away from the political and the macro. >> yeah.

>> exactly. what were your thoughts? >> well, it was on all day in our house. and, you know, it's one of those rare experiences where you're watching tv and you are having trouble holding back tears a lot of the time. and i thought it was good -- i agree with jon because the families and the heroes and those who sacrificed all walks were back at the floor again. instead of the strife over the political decisions that were made in the wake which many of us feel were terrible. but once again, you could think about what was very, very good about every american who responded to this. and i think that was a worthwhile experience for the country. >> and, you know, speaking of that, that's what i liked about it. it did bring together two men, two presidents who are divisive in their own ways.

just if you judge them by the enemies that they have, the political enemies. the past ten years being overwrought and extreme. i believe the left was extreme in their attacks against bush. and i think the right's been extreme in their attacks against obama. at the end of the day -- at the end of this terrible decade, you do have justice brought to the people who have caused this, who caused this ten years ago. president obama for all those who who loathe president obama. president obama made a remarkable decision. a gutsy decision to go in and get osama bin laden. he provided us closure in a way that nobody else could have. along obviously with the troops who executed it brilliantly. but also george w. bush over the past ten years.

bush and obama, their policy is a lot more alike than it is different. bush and obama together obliterated al qaeda as a working terrorist organization. >> i think a lot of people expected the counterterror policies to be repealed in 2009 and, in fact, they were ratified in many cases. we can argue for the rest of the year about the merits of the decisions made in the wake of the attacks. but there is in the macro sense a continuity in terms of really war leadership in the fight against terror. and i think that is something that hasn't been noticed much. and that image of two very different men, two very different life experiences together at a place of such meaning gives a strong signal to the world and the country.

>> on fox news sunday, senator john mccain spoke to chris wallace about america's involvement in the wars in the middle east saying this, "i also think we've learned a lot of lessons. and frankly, i don't think you're going to see the united states of america in another war in that part of the world. i don't think the american public opinion would stand for it." >> let's stop right there. >> i know. >> that's breaking news. that is breaking news. you talk to republican senators as we have and democratic senators a lot because obviously we've been very outspoken in our opposition to the continued expansion of wars. over the next decade. and most will say that john mccain is the one that's out front the most, joe conason, waving the flag. >> i hope he's learned something. you know, some of us feel he ought to have learned something a while ago about this.

you know, the first time you and i met, joe, was a debate over entering the iraq war. i don't know if you remember that on "hardball." and a lot of the disaster of these war decisions was predictable. i supported the invasion of afghanistan when it first happened. i lived not very far from the world trade center when the attack occurred, i was all for going in and getting -- but what came in the wake of that was an orgy of war that i think has caused us tremendously now. and if john mccain has at last figured out that, you know, every time you have a nail, don't pretend you have a hammer, that would be good. that would be progress. because there are a lot of alternatives to war. and it's not always the best one. >> i don't know if you'd call it a lesson learned. he'd probably characterize his statement differently and we should have him on to do so. >> yeah. >> there's the other side of

this, which is donald rumsfeld, which warns against cuts to the defense budget in an interview he did with cnn. take a listen. >> today with the debt crisis and deficit crisis, we're about to ready to make the same mistake we made off world war ii, after vietnam and korea and then after the cold war. pare down our intelligence, cut the budget in the defense department, and think we can get away with it. >> you know, jon meacham, you can't compare what happened after world war ii to what's happening now. after world war ii, we were living in a bipolar world, we had many reasons to fear the soviet expansion of the military machine. today, we have no fears. we spend more money than all of our closest rivals combined militarily. we're spending $2 billion a week in afghanistan, we've tripled the number of troops there, we are now engaging in wars, dropping drones on at least three, four, five countries

which we haven't even declared war against. the war inc. has exploded and expanded over the past four years. we are now, again, we are fighting wars in many countries where there's not even a declaration of war. >> i think the fact that we've cut defense spending and scaled back in the wake of world war ii would surprise people like truman, marshall, atchison, and eisenhower who ended that decade as the '50s by warning against saying we were spending too much in the military industrial complex. perhaps secretary rumsfeld meant world war i, which is true, we did cut back, and that created an isolationist army, which took a long time to fix and may have delayed -- >> the most important program after world war ii was not spending, it was the marshall plan, which was the opposite of military spending and rebuilt europe as an ally of the united states and our biggest trading partner and democracy much like

ours, and that was worthwhile spending. >> and i think the spending on nuclear weapons, which built the forces of armageddon in which led to so many near misses, i think, is significant. it's just i think rumsfeld has set the straw man here. there is an isolationist worry, that's absolutely right. but i think -- >> hey, i don't know how there can be an isolationist worry in 2011 when we are -- again, we are all over the place. >> i just don't think anybody who knows anything about the defense and intelligence budgets would tell you they couldn't be cut without compromising the security of the united states at all. >> you can't do it with a straight face. >> most aren't talking about gutting the military, talking about coming home from iraq, coming home from afghanistan, closing bases we don't need and ending weapons programs that have no relevance in the modern nation. no one's talking about not equipping guys who need to be equipped to do the jobs they need to do.

we're talking about come home from iraq, come from afghanistan, stop spending $2 billion a week. >> and go home with the army you had. i'm going to try to get two more news stories in here. today, president obama moves ahead with his plan to tackle the jobs problem in this country. and a rose garden address, the president will push his $447 billion jobs plan calling again on lawmakers to pass the bill quickly. the president who is expected to announce that he will send the bill to congress tonight while reminding lawmakers that his proposals to jump start the economy and create jobs have been supported by both parties in the past. the president will be joined in the rose garden by people from across the country who he says will benefit from the american jobs act including teachers, veterans, and small business owners. >> all right. and now on to 2012 before we go to break. politics, of course, republican presidential hopefuls are gearing up for a presidential debate tonight in tampa, florida. >> another one? >> yes, another one.

this is michele bauchmann's big chance to come back. with rick perry still a front runner in the recent polls, the seven other candidates are expected to continue attacking the texas governor for calling social security a ponzi scheme. but perry is not backing down from his comments. we're going to talk about this later. in a "usa today" op-ed, the governor says he'll be honest with the american people about challenges facing social security. he writes in part, "we must have the guts to talk about its financial condition if we are to fix social security --" >> stop right there. if we are to fix social security, that's the first time governor perry's gone there. because he knows that he screwed up. but how do you want to fix something that you say does violence to basic american values? how do you want to fix something that you have previously declared unconstitutional? i thought he was a

constitutional candidate. are we now to think, willie geist, this man from texas, this straight-shooting guy is going to work hard to undermine the very constitution that he has sworn to uphold to every last -- >> come on, now. let him explain himself. >> i know evolution's not his thing, but his views are evolving, perhaps. >> he wants to make it financially viable. >> we made the point last week, it's okay to say that social security is broken and we have to figure out a way to fix it. but to say we need to get rid of it and it's some sort of a criminal ponzi scheme perhaps would frighten some americans. >> it's a big mistake to focus on social security. medicare is the real problem. everybody knows that. the problem for governor perry is his record on health care in texas is terrible. managing it, you know, running medicaid. he's wasted billions of dollars

down there on ridiculous things he's done. and so he doesn't want to talk about that. he'd much rather talk about social security. ponzi scheme is a catch phrase that's been used in certain parts of the republican party for many years now. comes from the kato institute. perry got the memo yesterday that came out 5 years old, which says never say you're going to get rid of social security, always say you're going to fix it. >> he's already said it. he is -- >> joe -- >> that is against american values. good luck with that one in the florida primary, jon meacham. >> i just think when mitt romney says his prayers at night, i think thanking god for sending rick perry into the race. >> i think you're right. i think this helps romney in the end. coming up on "morning joe," chris van hollen and jim clyburn. up next, politico's top stories of the morning. but first, bill karins with a

check on the forecast. weeks of bad news, i'm here with only good news. fall is going to arrive this week. no hurricanes, no tornadoes, no flooding. it looks nice and quiet. the only storm we have out there is maria. and this storm is going to go harmlessly out to sea. our friends in bermuda possibly out there in the canadian maritimes could deal with this storm. but the east coast will just get large waves. and that's it. nothing right behind it. looks like a mini break here. showers yesterday, there could be an isolated storm or two today. hartford, providence, to boston. nice day from new york to d.c. enjoy the summer warmth while it lasts, it'll be much cooler by the end of this week. it's hot in texas, what else is new? minneapolis, 90 today, just to give you a sneak peek at the fall weather, minneapolis drops 20 degrees into the 60s and 70s tomorrow. so enjoy your last summer day in minneapolis probably of the year. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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all right. time now for this morning's papers. sarasota "herald tribune." for the next month, republicans will own the spotlight in florida. one of the most important swing states. tonight they'll debate in tampa, followed by orlando, followed by a statewide straw poll on the 24th. "times union" suggests watching nine minutes of sponge bob square pants can cause short-term attention and learning problems in 4-year-olds and some morning anchors. who do political shows. the study looked at children who watched "spongebob". >> spongebob, i watch that, what are we talking about? >> it's a show on tv. apparently children perform considerably worse on solving

puzzles and concentration compared to those who watch slower paced pbs -- >> i've got to apologize to my wife. she's right. she has been anti-spongebob from day one. will not let our kids watch spongebob. >> mine too. >> you're saying -- >> just won't allow it in the house. >> it's a show for kids. the jokes are funny, they're not kid jokes. >> they are. >> i think they're funny. >> they watch it? >> every kid watches spongebob. >> our kids don't. >> you can't let them? >> no, they just don't. they've never shown any interest in spongebob. they're interested in dora and the good -- the good ones. >> yeah. >> my little one loves spongebob. let's go to politico because i know jim definitely watches a lot of spongebob.

>> oh, spongebob. >> my kids have never seen it. >> really? >> never. >> i'm more strict than you are, joe. >> i bet you're much more strict. i mean, our kids watch "south park," but go ahead. no spongebob, but you can watch "south park." >> let's talk a little rick perry, shall we, jim? talking about his deep-pocketed supporters and some of the perks that perry himself may be enjoying because of it. what's the story? >> yeah, there's been a lot of focus on security and vulnerability there. but i think as the election unfolds, our reporters who have been down to texas, one of the big vulnerabilities will be his relationship with donors in texas. they have such lax ethic laws in texas that he's been there so long that he's gotten tons of trips and tickets to different games and other gifts from his biggest donors. i think that sort of relationship once each and every one of those incidents is talked about and exposed, particularly

in the general election context, is going to make it hard for him to portray himself as somebody who isn't business as usual. the type of stuff that happens in washington that often turns off voters. >> is that unusual, though? how unusual is that? are we looking at it now because of where he's risen? is it a typical thing for politicians to get? >> what's unusual is how lax those laws are in texas. a donor, for instance, can give the governor and his family unlimited gifts, trips, plane tickets, anything. most states you can't do that. and he's certainly taken advantage of that. gone on ski trips to colorado, gotten private plane trips to different trips on tickets, gifts even this place he's renting while they redo the mansion -- >> they gave him the astros -- >> he didn't want that. >> we heard this four years ago with mike huckabee also got a lot of gifts as an arkansas governor. it didn't seem to have a big impact. maybe the scale of this is much

more. >> depends if they look at the quo as well as the quid. you've got to see what they got back. and in some cases it's pretty big. one donor who wanted to build a radioactive waste site on, and got it. >> the "wall street journal" has written an article and a lot of others have, as well. look at the people who contributed to his campaign and look at what he immediately passed through legislation. he may not like big government, but his big donors do because he takes care of them. >> i want to ask you something -- that's the "wall street journal," conservative newspaper certainly. i want to ask you something. i was reading something that politico had written about in the special election for anthony weiner. and you guys published part of a leaked court document where a judge absolutely eviscerated the democratic candidate saying that he was basically a terrible

husband, he was a terrible man, he didn't care for his children. and i'm just -- i want to ask. i kind of wanted to put you on the hot seat because when i read it, first of all, it was obviously leaked, it was a sealed document. that raises the first question of why it would be published. but secondly, that was subsequently overturned by a higher court, and there was even some questions as to whether the judge that wrote that hateful language about the democratic candidate was out of line when he did it. did you guys at politico fear that the shock value of that headline may actually overweigh the substantive impact of value of the story? >> to be honest, i wasn't working this weekend, wasn't involved in that specific story. i know you've come up with these instances all the time where you're dealing with court records that sometimes are often 15, 20 years old. i'm not going to talk about an issue i don't know a ton about

as far as how that specific story was handled. i will say in that the thing that fascinates me the most, i don't think that leaking is going to have that much of an impact on that race. because what matters most are president obama's numbers in that race. and a democratic firm that had a poll out in the last 24 hours has obama's approval rating at 31% in a district that democrats haven't lost since the 1920s. >> that's amazing. >> among independent, 16% favorable rating for president obama in a democratic district. and i'm often reluctant to read too much into what happens in an individual special election. but when you have the president performing that poorly in a district that is his turf, he won with 55% of the vote last time around, that is a warning sign. a danger sign, and that's why you have all of these stories circulating about how panicked democrats are at the base of his performance right now. >> jim, so first of all, sorry, uh thought that we were talking about the story that you were aware of it.

i didn't realize -- i'll ask somebody that question later. let's touch on this because this is a much bigger issue for democrats. you have the special happening in anthony weiner's district. the president's numbers are collapsing there. same thing in nevada. you have a special election where the democrats, in fact, have given up. >> yep, again, you've got to be hesitant to draw too big of a conclusion. in these two districts, you usually don't have polling data this early in a lot of congressional districts. and when you look at this, particularly the new york one that are so favorable for the president in the last election. he's doing so poorly now, it really speaks to his fundamental problems in why so many democrats are nervous. he's got to figure out a way to turn that around. if he were to go into 2012 and his favorable rating is 30% in democratic districts, he would get wiped out.

there's no doubt there's plenty of time to change it. but that's the reason in some ways he has a very weakened presidency right now because everybody feels free to speak out against him. i could count 10 or 15 different stories i've read in the last week where you have tons of democrats on the record openly questioning his strength as a leader. that speaks to that strength because they would not have done that six months ago. >> there's obviously a lot of blame to go around over what's happened over the last several years, decade, but these numbers just prove at the end it's the guy at the top that gets the credit or blame. >> there's no question. usually in that particular district in queens and brooklyn, you could nominate anybody. and this was not a particularly distinguished candidate. and there might be a republican running against him, might not, but that person would get elected. this is what the democrats have done this time. they've put up with a hack candidate as usual and it's not flying because of the president. >> and that independent number jumps out.

16% in anthony weiner's district. >> strongly democratic district. coming up, the first weekend of nfl football, the jets with a thrilling fourth quarter comeback win. we'll have all the highlights next. also, serena williams chews out the chair umpire during her u.s. open match. [ horn honks ]

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you know, the national football league -- it is really one of the most powerful institutions in american popular culture. judging by everybody around this table, another big jump in the ratings. let's turn to a man who pored over every second of every game yesterday. to get a rundown of what happened yesterday. >> week one! >> here we go. michael barron of the nfl. jets and cowboys in new jersey, and a comeback for the jets. from the third quarter, tony romo throws it deep in the end

zone. clamarti looks like he has the interception, but he wrestles it away and gets the 36-yard touchdown. jets were down as many as 14 in the fourth quarter, but here's mark sanchez, yes, plaxico burress. a few minutes later, joe mcknight. >> let's go, joe! >> extra point, ties the game at 24. a minute to go, tony romo looking for brian. that is horrific throw. >> oh, he had to be in the stands. >> he didn't have to do much to pick that one off. the cowboys had cut him, he makes them pay. jets pull it out 27-26. >> watch out miami dolphins, 1972.

willie geist, you were about to report on the performance like none other. the great thing, their rookie quarterback auburn gets drafted. had a remarkable game. you know, this is really proved something, right? practice makes perfect. cam has already played for money, so he comes to the nfl, it's not that big of a shock. he put on a great display. >> he took a pay cut to come to the nfl. >> i know. >> cam newton and the carolina panthers on the road. newton finds steve smith down the sideline, 77-yard touchdown. and newton again, a 26-yard strike. newton set a rookie record, his numbers in just a second. but the cardinals rallied. another rookie, patrick peterson out of lsu. >> look at this one. >> great in college and a great start to his career. >> look at this one. >> he's breaking the tackle.

dancing in the end zone, 28-21, arizona wins. but for newton, 422 yards passing, 422 in his first nfl game. two touchdowns, the first nfl quarterback to throw for more than 400 yards in his nfl debut. >> seriously, a great composure on cam newton, came a little bit short at the end. this guy is going to be -- and the most remarkable thing is they were locked out. so cam newton didn't have what most rookies get. this guy is -- if he doesn't quit to go back to make more money at auburn, this guy's going to be a superstar. >> they didn't even have a play book. great performance. steelers and ravens, divisional rivals, third quarter, a touchdown catch, ravens up 22, blowing out -- >> killed them. >> later in the third, frustration boiling over. pushing and shoving, at one

point, the ref was knocked over. ravens beat the steelers. >> a lot of blowouts yesterday. who would guess the baltimore -- i mean the indianapolis colts would've won by 30, 40 points. steelers getting blown out, falcons getting blown out. a lot of great teams. i can't believe, are we going to show this later? you didn't see the highlights from the san francisco game? the guy who ran back 103 yards and did a 55 -- we'll show that later. this is for mika. the u.s. open final, serena williams taking on samantha stoker. in the first set, she was dominant. she's ripping an inside out forehand here taking the opening set easily 6 games to 2. she lets out a scream as every woman tennis player does always. take a listen to the scream.

>> all right. so here's what happened. the chair umpire gave the point to stosur because she said her scream was unsportsman like. she couldn't believe given the fact -- here's what she said to the ump afterwards. >> wait a minute. >> you're out of control. totally out of control. you're a hater. you're unattractive inside. we're in america last i checked. can i get a water? really, don't even look at me. i promise you. don't look at me. >> i feel bad for her. seriously, don't criticize.

if a guy did that, it'd be cool. >> stosur went on to beat serena. after the match, serena congratulated her opponent saying she played really, really well. i don't think she ever played that well. >> by the rules, i understand that you've got to call the rules consistently. but by the rules, she called the right -- she called it right. >> but you could call it on every point. >> when they serve, they just scream. >> but there's -- there's a difference between -- there's a difference between serving and grunting. there's another thing between hitting the ball and right as the person's about to approach it yelling out come on. >> you never see it, though. it's a weird time to call it, u.s. open final. >> if i'm not mistaken from my days of playing in short shorts and polo shirts. >> don't do that. >> it's called the hindrance. the jimmy hindrance. coming up next --

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what's the likelihood that you're going to challenge president obama in the primary? you've got dick cheney in your court. >> it's below zero. >> what do you think? >> one of the great things about being secretary of state is i'm out of politics. i am not interested in being drawn back into it by anybody. i have a big job to do, and i'm honored to do it every day, representing the country. >> would you ever get back into politics again? >> i don't think so. >> hillary's doing a great job as secretary of state. joe conason, these democrats, would they like to see hillary? even though it's not going to happen, would they like to see hillary get in? is there a chance there may be an opponent from the left at

this late stage? >> there's always the chance of an opponent from the left. jimmy carter had one. and if people think the president's a president like jimmy carter, there'll be one. deeper into the polls, he is still pretty popular -- obama, in the democratic base. it's hard to mount a challenge like that. i know that in the clinton camp they don't want to run another hillary campaign. at least not next year. so i think she's absolutely telling the truth about that. >> well, the problem is looked at in the "new york times." must read is sleeping barry awakes. she says obama's eternally the gifted and sometimes indolent student who has to be wooed and pressured into making the game-winning shot. we work 6:00 to 9:00 and he works 9:00 to 6:00. so much is at stake. obama offers his own version of the split personality presidency. do we get energizer barry or

innovator barry? it's deeply confusing to a country that's already confused. will he ever get that through his magnificent brain? the nation deserves clarity and consistency. when the president stays insulated with his little circle that doesn't know how to push his messages and lets the nihilist republicans go unchallenged, he sets the stage for rick perry. it's impossible, still, to sum up what obama's presidency is about right now except saving his own job. what about setting the stage for rick perry? it does seem like -- >> you know something, it's interesting that republicans have always politically punched around democratic candidates. and sometimes democratic nd barack obama in 2008 was that they took the fight to the

republicans. we're now back at a stage where intense republicans are constantly charging and always seem to have control of the battle. >> what's peculiar about president obama is whenever he does push back hard, his numbers go up, his reviews are better, you know, his party is happier, and people respect that. you know, in america, i think people respect the president who fights back to matter what he believes. >> yeah. >> and if you're seen as laying back and letting the other side roll over you, you lose respect with everybody. your base, the other side, it's harder to negotiate, and this has been -- she's right. this has been the problem with him all along. now, this last speech i thought was quite good. i thought he laid out a good program and he said it forcefully in ways people could understand. didn't use the word infrastructure, but said roads and bridges, and people got it. if he kept doing that for a while, his numbers might start to go up again.

if he doesn't, then he'll get run over. >> behind the scenes, perhaps, he might need to change his strategy. >> i -- >> and listen to some other people. >> at this point, yeah. at this point i've got nothing. i do know the people that like him very much have said that -- close to the inner circle said he surrounded himself with people he's very comfortable with, chicago people. and there are just -- telling him what he wants to hear. >> the republicans who have not met with him or not hardly enough. he should bring them to the table privately. >> as joe said, he needs to hear other voices and people that don't -- i want to go back to what joe conason said, americans love strong presidents.

ronald reagan firing the air traffic controllers, to bill clinton saying go ahead, shut down the government, i'm going to roll over you. strength win. >> g.w. bush? >> sure. >> the great example is harry truman. and if it's true that obama read that speech in cadillac square on the way out last week, it showed. and so go read david mccullough's truman.

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oh, yes. is it time? that's so good. >> everybody on heightened alert yesterday. the zetenth anniversary of september 11th. >> we had a few breaches. >> we did. >> i'm not making this up. because of mile-high club activity. >> what? >> not one case, but two. american airlines flight 34 traveling from los angeles to jfk, suspicious activity the pilot reported. there were people "spending too much time in the bathroom." >> wait, wait, wait -- i'm sorry. is that a crime? >> apparently it is now. >> lock me up. >> joe. >> don't let the terrorists win. >> all the way to new york city. then on a frontier airlines flight from detroit to denver -- from denver to detroit, law enforcement officials say two people were "making out in the

bathroom." >> is that a crime? >> again, f-16s scrambled to escort the jets. >> answer my question! is that a crime? >> the three passengers taken off in handcuffs, but not charged. >> my lord. my lord. >> here's a passenger. >> two people that i would have -- that i saw go up early on into the front lavatory, there were two gentlemen. one went in, he was in there a good ten minutes. came out, smiled at the other gi guy, he went in and was in there. >> reporter: right now, authorities will not confirm or deny that that actually occurred. >> let me just say, willie, if love has now gone out of style, if love is now a federal offense, osama bin laden has won. >> that's what i said. we are no longer what we once were, the terrorists have won.

>> they shut down the mile-high club. >> the best part is the f-16 escort, our tax dollars at work. >> not in my america. we will continue to fight to love on. >> coming up, jim clyburn, tavis smiley on next. >> so, ah, your seat good? got the mirrors all adjusted? you can see everything ok? just stay off the freeways, all right? i don't want you going out on those yet. and leave your phone in your purse, i don't want you texting. >> daddy... ok! ok, here you go. be careful. >> thanks dad. >> and call me--but not while you're driving.

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when the greek king of sparta facing a massive, massive persian army took 300 of his

finest soldiers to a narrow pass called thermopylae, they were thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people. they all knew they were going to die. he told them that when they went. but the casualties they took and the time they bought saved the people they loved. your loved ones just happen to be on a plane. ordinary people given no time at all to decide, did the right thing. and 2,500 years from now, i hope and pray to god that people will still remember. >> welcome back to "morning joe." that was president clinton speaking in shanksville. it was an amazing speech. jon meacham still with us. joining the table tavis smiley, the host of pbs's "the tavis

smiley show." good to have you both this morning. >> this speech by president clinton and joe biden up at shanksville, so moving. and i always -- it was always interesting, willie geist. i always thought the first punch back after 9/11, and now this ten-year war against al qaeda. a war that for the most part we have won. the costs have been horrific. but osama bin laden's dead and so many, most of his lieutenants are dead. they've been scattered like the wind. but the first punch, the first counter attack is when todd beamer and some other guys from the back of the plane said let's roll, and they knocked down the cockpit door and knew they were going to their death, took it into the ground and saved the u.s. capitol. saved the u.s. capitol. >> some people said that almost

immediately after the first battle of this war has been fought and america won. and you watch all this coverage of the last couple of days and you feel like you've seen enough of it. and you just don't want to -- but that story of flight 93, you just can't get enough of it. the composure these guys on the phones with their wives saying good-bye and saying -- >> the flight attendant did the same. >> saying we're going to do it. they calculated the risk, knew what was at stake. they decided they were going to go down with the plane rather than have it crash into washington. >> todd beamer quietly asking an operator, will you say the lord's prayer with me putting down the phone, and then everybody looking at each other and saying, okay, let's go. it really -- it's not talked about that much. >> it wasn't yesterday. >> they did it -- >> that's a memorial i really want to go out to, shanksville. >> it was very -- there were a trio of speeches. vice president biden, president

bush, and president clinton. and there was a kind of super partisanship there that i think was by the spirit that happened. it was unusual. everything about the run-up, scheduling speeches, everything that's been going on, the pettiness of politics, there was a moment you realized big things happen. and the big things happen to ordinary people. and they were my friend evan thomas wrote in the weeks, days after the attacks that the people on flight 93 were in the tradition of citizen soldiers. that they were -- they answered the call, they were extraordinary -- they were ordinary folks who did an extraordinary thing. and i don't know about you all, i remember thinking at the time and thinking ever since and thinking a lot this weekend, what would i have done? would i have had the courage, the guts to do that?

and god bless them. >> and i would say you weep for their young children who have grown up now ten years later. but how could you possibly be more proud of a parent you lost than if you'd died that way? that's something you can carry with your entire life. my father took his own life to save others. >> and every time they see the capitol, before a president goes to capitol hill and delivers a speech. every time they see that symbol of freedom, they know their father, their friend, their loved one, their son, their daughter were responsible for it still standing and shining. you know, tavis, we've been looking back over the past ten years. you and i have talked for some time about a need to move forward and look at the next ten years. too many issues out there that are slipping away with our preoccupation on ten years of war. issues that are too important to fail.

you're tackling that head on. >> trying to. i want to go back to jon's point if i can. first of all, thanks for having me on. the last time i was here, you all deserted me and went to london for some wedding. >> exactly. some wedding. >> we asked if there were something -- >> i wasn't there -- >> willie had to go to the bachelor party. >> i'm glad you're here, first of all. >> we are too. >> y'all said something a moment ago i want to come back to. there was this -- to use your phrase, super partisanship over the weekend. the only problem with that is, if it takes a tragedy of this proportions for us to achieve bipartisanship, that's a real problem because i hope we never have to revisit what happened ten years ago to see that kind of unity, that kind of coming together. i've been in town for the past couple of days participating on an annual conference that travels around the world, this year for obvious reasons it was in new york city. but the conference is called interdependence. and if ever there were a moment

in this country or the world where we need to embrace the notion of interdependence, that time is now. i was struck by a presentation yesterday that made us consider that when we think of a dependence, we tend to think of the opposite of independence -- the opposite of dependence as -- when we think rather of dependence, we think of the opposite of dependence as independence, and it's not. the on sit is isolation. when you talk about this crisis on the plane and what these americans came together to do. the opposite is isolation. that's true on this plane, in the country, in this world. if there were a moment for interdependence, that moment is now. it always feels like throwing water on a fire when you raise this. but in many ways, we lost an opportunity ten years ago. >> i agree. >> we lost -- and people think it's anti-american or certainly impolitic to say that.

but there are so many ways on so many levels, mika, i think we lost major opportunities ten years ago that we will never get back. and if one believes that to get that opportunity back to recoup what we lost, we have to go through another tragedy like this, i'm not sure that's worth it. but i hate the fact that on so many levels, politically, socially, economically, and culturally, and internationally, globally, we missed moments. >> we cut taxes and told people, it's okay, go shopping. there are problems with how we confronted this as a country, as a nation. and i would say to your point -- and also to your point saying it's a war we've won. i don't think we're there yet. >> i didn't say it was a war we won. i didn't say it was a war we won. we have -- hey, we have scattered al qaeda, they were based in afghanistan. they launched their international operations there. there are now 50 members of al qaeda there and one of them's not osama bin laden. but they're in yemen now, and they're in somalia now.

and all i'm saying is we have had leaders that have done well. listen, i could focus on negatives with george w. bush. i've been very critical of george w. bush over the past eight years, i could focus on the negatives of president obama and the mistakes he's made in foreign policy and domestic policy over the past two years. i think it's all right for us on one day without going, well, you know what? george bush really screwed up ten years ago. or you know what? barack obama really shouldn't have tripled the number of troops -- you know, i think it's okay for us for one day to say -- >> hold on one second. >> for one day to say it was good to see democratic and republican president alike together with all their flaws, with all the mistakes they made, with all the miscues. it is okay for us to say thank you president obama for having the courage to start the mission

that killed osama bin laden. it is okay to say thank you, george w. bush, for keeping us safe domestically for eight years. it's okay to say that. without adding on, but george bush you did this, this, and this. at some point, we've got to say thank you, sir, for your leadership and show pictures of this to the american people and just let there be silence. now, we've heard chapter and verse about george w. bush as a war criminal. and we have heard chapter and verse from the left of how barack obama is not a true american, how he's a muslim, how he's that marxist, a socialist -- you know what? i think to bring this country together like it needs to be brought together without a tragedy, at some point, we just salute our leaders and say thank you. >> i think that's a very important point. and you make it very, very clear. i think adding to that as we look at the big picture, we look

at what tavis is trying to do and what educators across the country are trying to do with very limited resources. and we look at the big picture, and we also can say as we look at ourselves that we've missed opportunities and we haven't won. we have so much to do to make up for ten years of scrambling through wars and tax cuts at a time when we didn't need them. >> you always go back to tax cuts. >> because we need to invest in our country. >> no, look -- the thing is, though -- we're always hearing about how tea partiers are ideologues, talking about spending cuts, every liberal that comes on this show, you ask them what the biggest problem is? tax cuts. the left is blindly ideological and hyper focused on tax cuts. as if raising taxes will cure all ills. >> beyond the tax cuts, please tell me you don't disagree with mika's point that there's so many opportunities, politically,

socially, economically that we missed over the last ten years. i agree with everything you said in your comment there. but at some point, that narrative ends, and you have to turn the page. you don't think -- tell me you think that we are right about this. that we missed major moments, major opportunities in this country to advance domestically and internationally. we've missed moments. >> well, of course. >> that's all i was saying. >> i've written books about it, i said repeatedly that we mismanaged the war. i think we should've gone colin powell's route at overwhelming force, listened to the general -- you know what? we didn't. and i'm just saying ten years later, we don't have to bring up every time we say he kept us safe, yeah, but he told us to go shopping. but yeah, he cut taxes. or every time barack obama you praise barack obama, you go, oh, yeah, but he tripled the number of troops in afghanistan or did this or he's a marxist or wasn't even born here. at some point, let's just -- we can let that go.

historians will judge that. it's okay. you have never been able to say thank you, president bush. you've never been able to say that without having to attack him. >> this really wasn't an attack on president bush. >> yes, it was. when you talk about going shopping and taxes, that is -- you've never been able to say thank you, president bush. >> i'm going to keep us safe -- >> we're saying thank you to president bush for what, exactly? >> well -- i can. >> doing just what barack obama's doing and doing everything that he believes in his heart is keeping you and me and my family safe. whether i agree or disagree with barack obama, i thank him for his service, i thank him for the sacrifices that his family makes. it is a horrific job, it is terrible on families, the strain is extraordinary, and he's doing everything he can to keep america safe. to keep your children safe, my children safe. and you know what? the guy right next to him, he did the same thing.

everything he could in his po r power. now, guess what? people on the left disagree with what george w. bush did, people on the right disagree with what barack obama did. but we as one nation at some point need to step back and be able to say, thank you, president obama, thank you, president bush. we haven't had another attack since 9/11 in this country, and that just didn't happen by coincidence. would you disagree with that? >> i wouldn't disagree with that. but you know me, i'm going to stand in my truth even against the unformyou. one of those guys lied to the american people. when i say he lied, the administration lied. when you want to talk about the security of this country, joe, and you cannot disconnect that, you cannot dismiss the fact that he got up in a war that is now the longest running war in this country because his administration -- say it, joe -- lied to the american people. they did not give us the proper

information. we never did find a weapon of mass destruction. it is a lie. >> no, it's not. it's not. >> this is not helpful. >> his administration misled -- is misled a better word? they misled the american people. >> do you believe that george w. bush intentionally misled the american people in the case for war? >> i do not. >> i didn't say -- >> speak to your truth. >> i'm speaking to my truth. when they -- there's a distinction that can be made between, i think, misleading people for the purpose of what you want to accomplish. to your point, joe, you said he did everything he thought was right. we could talk about all kinds of americans who have done things they thought were right in their mind, were they lying? in their mind, were they misleading? they were trying to accomplish a goal and dick cheney and everybody else in that administration knew exactly what they were trying to accomplish. the american people were misled.

call it a lie, call it misled. >> they knew -- >> jon meacham's question was pretty simple. do you believe that george w. bush intentionally lied to the american people in the war for -- in the -- >> the answer to that question is i can't get inside his head. >> you said he lied. >> i can't get inside his head. when i said he lied, i'm looking at the facts. the facts of what they told the american people juxtapose against what we know now don't square. >> that's not a lie. that's a mistake, it's a massive intelligence failure, but i do not believe -- and believe me, the bush world does not think of me as a friendly. i do not believe at any level that george w. bush intentionally lied to get us into iraq. >> i think the administration was misled. i think the intelligence services were saying something,

i think they wanted to do -- this is the way this thing works. i think it's much more compelling if you want to take a hawkish view to say how could they not have reacted sooner? >> now. >> and i also don't think it's helpful -- and also by your definition of lie, he's not. so i think to say someone lied as a corrosive element to the public dialogue that we don't need. >> and i will say he can be guilty of this. this is a president who i believe led people on to know he wanted to go to war in iraq. >> that's not what you're saying. >> no, you said he lied. but when -- when the cia director comes in to talk to him and says this is the evidence that we have weapons of mass destruction. and the president of the united states says to him in there, is

this all you have? is this the best evidence you have? because this isn't enough. and when you have the cia director standing up and waving his arms, mr. president, it's a slam dunk, they have weapons of mass destruction. not in 2010. saying that in 2002, a year after 9/11. now, if historians want to say tenet did that because he felt the pressure of dick cheney, et cetera, that's one thing. but historians will be hard-pressed to suggest that george w. bush knew that he was lying to the american people when he told them osama bin laden h-- saddam hussein had weapons of mass destruction. >> what i will tell you is that when i brought up the go shopping comment, i was really talking about our country. and about the resources that we've spent on these wars and about the attitudes of the american people toward these wars. some so disconnected. our schools crumbling,

infrastructure crumbling. this is not winning. and i was trying to be transparent to segue to too important to fail. that's all i was doing. and i have really think that's as much a part of the war on terror as stamping out al qaeda is keeping our country strong and preeminent. >> hold on, i don't want to be difficult. but i want to be clear. i started this segment talking about how there are times where we should just stand and salute our presidents. and george w. bush has been called a liar, and you go back to shopping. that is an attack on george w. bush. i would like for one time for you to say, you know what? i disagreed with him a lot, he kept us safe, thank you, mr. president. >> i disagree with him a lot. he kept us safe. thank you, mr. president. thank you to both of our presidents. but president bush and obama are what i'm talking about when i make this point. about where we move forward and where we haven't won. i'm not focused on george w.

bush. >> it would be the first time if it weren't. and by the way, tav, i've been harshly critical of george w. bush. i'm arguing the case of unity. >> and the case i'm making is and just for the record, what i said was that the american people were lied to. i was very clear. his administration. now, however you -- i said his administration. i standby that. however you and jon want to -- when you make it clear you want to go to war, when you think what the american people need right now is a swift and certain and severe response and then you create a narrative to match what you want to do, you call that a lie, you call it misled, you call it a creation, you call it disneyland, call it whatever you want to call it. but you said he knew he wanted to go to war. we all knew what he wanted to do. and he thought that was the right thing to do to have a swift, certain, severe response

for the american people. then you create a story to match that. call it whatever you want to call it. i call it misleading, lying, making stuff up. i stand by that -- >> i'm not -- >> no. >> to the education piece. this is why education is so important. >> he didn't create the narrative. the narrative was given to him by not only his intelligence, the cia -- >> his administration -- >> british intelligence, intelligence all over the world. and by the way, what george w. bush was hearing from intel in 2002, democrats were saying in 1999 and 2000, and 2001. i can't believe i'm having to say this again. google it. the "new york times" on the eve of george w. bush's inauguration said saddam hussein, weapons of mass destruction were his greatest threat. the greatest foreign policy threat to george w. bush on the eve of his inauguration was saddam hussein. and suddenly george w. bush

decides to go into iraq and suddenly, side switch. and that is the sickness that is washington, d.c. the very democrats and newspapers that supported regime change, when a democrat was in power changed when a republican was in power. that is the sickness of washington politics. and on that point -- >> i'll agree. we agree on that point. absolutely agree. >> i want to talk about education when we come back. don't you, mika? >> i do. >> because you know what? i want to bury the past ten years. we've got to start planning for the next ten years. china certainly is. >> all right. up next, chuck todd joins us live from the white house. stay right here. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. wanna know the difference between a trader and an elite trader? no? change the channel. waiting. waiting. still here? it's this... etrade's pro platform. sizzles the trading senses. heart of their new elite trading program. your lethal weapon. designed bottom up? cha-ching.

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26 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe" with us now nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of

"the daily rundown" chuck todd. chuck, good morning. >> reporter: good morning. i feel like i need to cut the tension or something. >> no, no -- we're all looking forward. >> reporter: lean forward, baby. >> let's talk about the president yesterday. i'm not evolving. i salute presidents. and i don't -- on days like yesterday, i salute presidents. and chuck, i'll just say it, i thought the president did a wonderful job yesterday. and was deeply moved when he read from psalms when he stood up after the first moment of silence. >> reporter: i completely agree. and it's one of those things where that's got to be, you know, there's that picture of president obama and president bush standing together there yesterday. and you say what you want about the politics, those two guys have had to deal with some things in there that only the other understands.

and so just watching them -- and so, a, i think that moves them more so in instances like this. but also gives them a -- probably a greater understanding or at least appreciation for some of the stress of the job. >> you know, chuck, nobody -- that's a great point. none of us. >> really, really good point. >> there are a handful of people on the planet that know what george w. bush had to carry around for eight years and what president obama has to carry around for three years. they get the briefing right after they become president and it is a horrifying briefing. and both of these men share all of this information of who was trying to kill us, who is trying to kill our children, who is trying to blow up our buildings, and what a terrible, terrible burden that this president and the last had to carry on their shoulders every day.

>> reporter: absolutely. you know, one of the greatest examples of that was right after the bay of pigs when president kennedy who had been quite contemptuous of eisenhower during the last days of his presidency. the pay of pigs goes bad, he calls eisenhower, calls him to come to camp david and basically says i screwed up. and eisenhower says, well, did you ask the right questions? did you have a big meeting? and kennedy said no, no and the lesson was learned. but suddenly the old guy who didn't know anything suddenly seemed a lot smarter to kennedy once he'd been there. >> and also, the old guy that didn't think much of kennedy actually started appreciating john kennedy's burden more than before, as well. chuck, so, what's on the president's plate today as we move forward past some very

moving ceremonies? >> reporter: well, he does a rose garden event where one more sales pitch for his jobs bill and then sends the physical bill to congress. and did an interview with brian williams, and he's got an interesting little extra sales pitch we didn't hear last week. and that is he calls his jobs bill an insurance policy against a double-dip recession. my expectation is that we're going to hear that again today when he does this rose garden event. it's a -- that's -- that's sort of putting it down there because in many ways so are you saying if it doesn't pass there will be a double-dip recession? it does sort of raise the political stakes on this a little bit. >> it's a good question. joining us onset now -- >> good morning. >> a guy that took us through, you know, it was yesterday morning was a special morning when everybody stopped and we were changing around the channels and it was so great when we got to the channel and i

saw you and tom brokaw. and it had to be very moving for you to be down there ten years later. >> we were doing fine until paul simon started to sing. and i look over and tom and he was a mess. i mentioned your name to the president on saturday. along with that professor you've been hanging out with. hopefully we'll get to it tonight. i asked him a question about frustration, african-american community, young african-american males, poverty, unemployment. >> right. >> what a day it was. and i've been sitting in my office listening to your conversation. glad you two are getting along. >> yeah. >> but, yeah -- >> i've said to my wife last night and my kids who are 23 and 20. for the first time in their lives watched the day in that -- in the life on msnbc yesterday in sequence. and it is the first time they both felt ready.

and when they were in school, we protected them from it like most parents of the era. and threw them through a loop. and what happened to them yesterday, they didn't just stop there. they watched every documentary on every channel. my son was still watching the msnbc documentary last night while the jets game was on. and that's how i knew -- he's at college and i said, you know what? you've got to stop and just come with me and watch the jets game. let's complain about the jets as we -- as the giants broke our heart earlier in the day. what a heck of a day in american history. >> and what were your thoughts seeing the two presidents together? george w. bush, barack obama, two different men from different backgrounds. but sharing the bond that, you know, as you said -- that eisenhower and kennedy shared. or that lbj and nixon shared. >> as my friend jon meacham

knows, i'm a presidential geek. and i've studied -- read about presidents all new life. so i love this stuff. when you throw a couple of presidents together, i think it's what we do best. and i think the ex presidents club is just an incredible repository of brain power and history. having listened to a lot of discussions on the war in iraq and a lot of gatherings, i've settled on the word elective. it was an elective war on the part of george w. bush because none of those pilots were iraqi. because none of the people in those planes were iraqi. and because as a wounded nation we gave a president in effect a blank check. people forget what a crazy time it was. people forget that when i left that morning i paused at the intersection knowing my kids were both in the same school and i didn't know if there would be another day in america.

people forget the crazy pressure to put a flag on your lapel and without it you couldn't be a patriot, you certainly couldn't love your country. so that same pressure made for some judgments and some permission granted by the american people with their chief executive. but i love what happened yesterday. >> and i agree with everything you just said. and i love seeing presidents come together, as well. there's nothing like it in america. in terms of the visual. at the same time, brian, i get concerned about this sort of -- here i go again throwing water on the fire. this cheap sentimentalism that we can appeal too often times in many of us that keeps us away from focusing on what the issues are. so i celebrate that and i have to pull myself back sometimes to make sure i don't get so caught up again in the sentimentalism of the narrative that i lose sight of what the issues really are that we ought to be focusing

on and we missed in the process. >> and we're moving forward, we look at those. but brian, to add to -- and i want to hear what you were thinking of the conversation we were having because it's at the heart of what still is debated over all these wars and 9/11, the aftermath. but reading dick cheney's book, it's not just the policy part of it that i was reading. i was reading the personal part of it and how he and his wife lived with the threat of attack at every moment of their days. that they would before an event, before getting on marine one hear that they might have been infected with botulism and their body might be break down. this is the land in which they were making decisions. and that's part of the kwaequat. >> i can take you down the hallway where tom brokaw's secretary opened that envelope. and we were crazy back then. we were nuts. we'd lost our rudder -- our

world had been turned upside down. you go down there yesterday, look at the pit, and look up at the scars still on the facings of those buildings after ten years. i mean, look, as an american, as a new yorker, it breaks my heart that nothing's done, that it's a construction zone, that the only word to describe what's on the ground down there is a crater adjacent to the memorial. i always believed every -- and no two new yorkers are different. i believe we should've kept the last violent shards standing. that last 10-story section and cleared the ground around it and lit it at night. and it was kinetic and violent and it brings out a visceral feeling, and it would have -- it contained human remains, and it would have remind us of what happened forever and ever and ever. it's how the battleship out in pearl harbor is such an effective memorial. leaking oil to this day. >> it's interesting hearing you and tom talking about that. tom thought it might be too

violent of an image. you ask tom what he felt as a new yorker. he said, ten years, about right. where you can't change a wall without 2 1/2 years. let's go back to the iraq conversation because you wanted to talk about it. you believe it was an elective war. that's what you've come down to. you've also interviewed a lot of the players that were around the table. when george w. bush made the decision. do you get the sense that there was a -- there was an intention to mislead? or do you think it was faulty intelligence? what -- as far as all the information you gathered, how do you think the historians come down on there? >> i'm not going to go near that. i don't know enough. i'm not being cute or coy, i don't know enough. all i know is that the war that would have been compelled by what happened to us in new york and pennsylvania and washington,

that war got fought. and those boots mostly cia boots were on the ground days later and the bombing started 28 days later. that war got fought. the other one, i think, reasonable people, would you concur with that word that it was an elective? you're the bona fide walking away no more calls, please, historians. >> please. please. >> you and geist. >> please. >> i read his book. it was stunning. and the part about president garfield, i had never read such scholarship. >> amazing. >> brian's doing the greatest generation, the garfield version. >> not the cat, but the president. >> it was as richard hoff said a war of choice. it was not a war of necessity. and, so, yes, elective is a synonym for choice. i do not believe from what i know of the players and the first rough draft of history that there was an intentional lie about the cause for war in

iraq. they wanted to go forward, violating an ancient american principle. we don't go forward in search of monsters to destroy. and that's what happened. but i think in the president's heart, it was the right thing to do. i do not think he lied to us. and i think he was wrong. i think he said he was wrong, but to say he lied is to corrode the political dialogue even further and is dangerous for us going forward. >> we have to work through it. >> jon, was there enough skepticism in the white house? that's a different way to ask the question? >> sure. >> did they have the seed of the idea of war in iraq already planted? >> monday morning. sure, it is monday morning. >> it is. >> by the way, that visual behind you. first of all, i like that you're in a tie again, enough of the

little zippy things, you're a former congressman. but this visual of the flag behind you, you could run again. a frightening thought to most congressional districts. >> you know what? we have taken the flag pin and supersized it. i love america. i'm expecting to see that behind you tonight. >> tavis and i are exchanging skeptical glances. >> gentlemen, this has been fun. >> thanks for having me. these are all friends of mine. >> we will be right back with more "morning joe." [ male announcer ] you've climbed a few mountains during your time. and having a partner like northern trust -- one of the nation's largest wealth managers -- makes all the difference. our goals-based investment strategies are tailored to your needs and overseen by experts who seek to maximize opportunities while minimizing risk.

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welcome back to "morning joe." two members of the supercommittee, democratic congressman from maryland and ranking member of the house budget committee representative chris van hallen. congressman jim clyburn. always great to see you guys. >> we're staying away. >> tavis smiley still here. >> there's really nothing going on. >> nothing going on. >> nothing for you to do. >> only 74 days left before

we're supposed to come up with a plan, right? >> with anthony weiner's seat coming up, you folks sitting on that closely. problems when the president's approval rating at 30%, 18% independent. what's going to happen in that race? >> the democrats will win at the end of the day. but you're right, this is a tough race, you have a special election, turnout is key, which means you need energy. and right now, you know, when you look at the race, it's going to be a challenge to get some of the democrats out. but at the end of the day, i think they're going to be done. >> how do you explain this? it's fascinating. we've had a lot of back and forth between republicans and democrats. the president seeing their numbers go down. ugliness, real ugliness over the debt ceiling raising. if you look at these special elections and the polls, the democrats are getting hit on the chin in new york and nevada. why is that? >> well, it's not to say. a few months ago, republicans. you won the big republican seat.

here in new york. so these things go back and forth, it's called the yin and yang of politics. >> how about there's no jobs? >> well, there's a confidence level we need to achieve if we are going to be more successful. and consumer confidence is way down now. and that's one of the things that we talk about all the time. chris and i, in trying to do our work in this joint select committee are particularly concerned about consumer confidence. because when people have confidence, they'll go out and participate, spending money, going to ball games. but they're not going to do it when they don't have confidence. >> and there is a real problem. this is a crisis in confidence. and not only is it consumers, but it's banks. i don't know if you all saw the piece in the "new york times." >> and tav, the real crisis here is these guys are on a

committee, they've got to figure out how to cut the deficit. to cut the national debt. at the same time, we've got to stimulate the economy to get people back in the workforce. it is a terrible position. >> at the same time, the federal budget expires, our fiscal year ends, we're just days away from that. how is that going to complicate what you're going to do? >> the president's going to submit his plan today. to the congress and the jobs plan he talked about before the joint session last week. and for us on the joint committee, we see our charge as being really two things. number one, is to work to get the economy moving again. because the fastest and most effective way to begin to reduce the deficit over the long-term is to put people back to work. >> absolutely. >> you can do that as part of a long-term plan to also cut the deficit. we're very focused on both pieces of that agenda. >> well, i think what you've got to see is that we believe very

sincerely that we have to restore some equity in our tax code because that's got people a little bit disappointed. we've got to make sure that job creation there on the table. and i do believe that if you're creating jobs, people go back to work, confidence goes up, people will then begin to participate. and then they will see some fearless in the system. and right now people don't see fearless in the system. >> everything on the table, everything from tax reform to entitlement reform? >> absolutely. >> everything's on the table. but how is it that we as americans should believe or can believe that 12 of you, respectfully, can do what 535 of you couldn't do even though the committee's split right down the middle. what makes this group of 12 so magical? >> there's no magic to the group of 12. but i do think that when members of congress -- that's right.

but when members of congress went back home during the most recent break, they heard an earful from their constituents about how it was important to get people together, come together, and get something done. and as we reflect back to the ten years of 9/11, the spirit of how the country was united, i hope we can unite in the way that makes the next big challenge. and that is getting the economy going again. i think that the bipartisan commission recommendations that have been out there in terms of the framework are the way to go. i don't agree with every recommendation, but they provide the framework of how you have to deal with the tax reform piece and also look at some of the other programs of reform and modernize some of those in a way that we can make sure they're strengthened in the future. i think we can do it. and whether or not the group of 12 -- >> one thing -- >> we're going to work hard at it. >> that may be true. remember, we are not starting from scratch here. chris and i both served on the

biden group. and we worked on that. we had 10 meetings, we got the benefit of simpson/bowles. we've got that side by side, it's been there more than 12 months. so we're starting from scratch here and trying to bring that -- >> good luck. representativ representatives, thank you. tavis smiley, thank you, i think. >> tavis! no -- >> now, you just stop. >> we need to >> nothing you can do about it. >> exactly. [ indistinct talking on radio ]

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tornados. nice forecast today. just a slight chance of a shower or storm providence, hartford to boston. take a look at what's going to happen this week. get ready for fall in a hurry. highs in the mid-60s in new york city and lows in the 40s. very summer-like in the middle of the country but here it comes. even chicago too, your highs in the low 60s by thursday association just be prepared and enjoy what should be a gorgeous start to your workweek. more "morning joe" coming right up. ♪

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these past ten years have shown that america does not give in to fear. the rescue workers who rushed to the scene, the firefighters who charged up the stairs, the passengers who stormed the cockpit. these patriots define the very nature of courage. it will be said that we kept the faith, that we took a painful blow and we emerged stronger than before. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast, as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to morning joe. back with us on set, we have john meachem. thousands gathered at ground zero for the tenth anniversary of the september 11th attacks. the tenth anniversary saw remembrances and also reflection

on where things stand on the war on terror and the lessons learned from those attacks. president obama spoke with brian williams and whether the u.s. is safer now, ten years later. >> there is no doubt we are safer now than we were ten years ago. we are in a much stronger position now and al qaeda is on the path to defeat. we've taken out huge chunks of their senior leadership, most prominently, obviously, osama bin laden. but, you know, there are still people out there who would try to hurt americans, who would str try to strike at us and we have to be constantly vigil. >> did you watch some of the ceremonies in the morning? >> you know, i did. i watched with my children the reading of the names and it was hard. and then we all watched the evening news together and talked about it as a family, because my kids were toddlers at the time and they have slight memories. >> had you ever talked to them because you ran down there immediately after the towers fell. jim, who works for wabc was down

there for a week. you all didn't see your children for a week. >> for quite a while. for weeks. >> weeks, weeks. had they ever -- had you all ever talked about that until yesterday? >> time and time again it's in up. but last night my younger daughter had some really interesting questions about why they were rebuilding a tower and where the hatred comes from. it was interesting. so i think you have to let time pass and let it happen organically with children. but i watched some of my husband's reports on youtube. it was the first time i realized what he was doing. exactly where he was. anyhow, the bottom line is i thought the memorial, and i wonder what you all think, is just beautiful and as well done as it can be, the water fall, everything. >> i saw the -- >> it was very moving. >> brian williams and brokaw, i thought, john meachem, were great yesterday morning taking us through it. did you see a lot of the

coverage? >> i did. i did. if you haven't seen tom's new yorktimes.com video op-ed he did, it's worth looking at. it's really remarkable. i thought the whole day was fascinating and moving. what was interesting, is this was the first time a lot of the victims' families had something to take away because they could do the rubbing on the memorial. and as simple as that seems out of context, it was pretty -- clearly meant an enormous amount. >> a lot of people who never were able to bring someone home were able to go and find them. >> right. >> so it had so much symbolic value, every part of the experience of seeing the new memorial. >> the other thing if people didn't see it and i don't know how widely televised it was on saturday, the speeches in shanksville from biden and president clinton and president

bush are really worth going back and watching all three, because if you want to have at least a feeling of what the unity was like, however briefly back then politically, these speeches represent that. >> speaking of unity, it was nice, willie, to see president obama, president bush and the first families together sharing this. >> i think it's always nice to see those, especially as divided as we've been and been at each other's throats politically. i had the privilege yesterday of going down to one of the firehouses to a morning service where they lost 15 guys and they do it every year. it was especially meaningful this year. i got to meet some of the children of the guys who had died. one kid, 10 years old, was six months old when his dad died, didn't even really know his dad. everything he knows about his dad he's heard secondhand. everything about the way his dad died he's seen on tv.

it was really interesting to talk to some of these kids and their families, because they want to talk about their dad or their brother so it's nice to get the personal element of it away from the political and the macro. >> exactly. what were your thoughts? >> well, it was on all day in our house. you know, it's one of those rare experiences where you're watching tv and you're having trouble holding back tears a lot of the time. i agreed with john because the families and the heroes and those who sacrificed of all walks were back at the fore again instead of the strife over the political decisions that were made in the wake of it, which many of us feel were terrible. but once again you can think about what was very, very good about every american who responded to this. and i think that was a worthwhile experience for the country. >> the music was just right. >> and you know speaking of that, that's what i liked about it, it did bring together two

men, two presidents who are divisive in their own ways. if you judge them by the enemies that they have, the political enemies, the past ten years being overwrought and extreme. i believe the left was extreme in their attacks against bush and i think the right has been extreme in their attacks against obama. but at the end of the day, at the end of this terrible, terrible decade, you do have justice brought to the people who have caused this, who caused this ten years ago. president obama, for all those who loathe president obama, president obama made a remarkable decision, a gutsy decision to go in and get osama bin laden. he provided us closure in a way

that nobody else could have, along obviously with the troops who executed it brilliantly. but also george w. bush over the past ten years, bush and obama and history will show their foreign policy is a lot more alike than it is different. george bush and obama together obliterated al qaeda as a working terrorist organization. >> i think a lot of people expected the counterterror policies to be repealed in 2009, and in fact they were ratified in many cases. and we can argue for the rest of the year about the merits of the decisions made in the wake of the attacks. but there is in the macro sense a continuity in terms of really war leadership in the fight against terror. and i think that that is something that hasn't been noted much and i think that image of two very different men, two very

different life experiences together at a place of such meaning gives a strong signal to the world and to the country. >> and we're clearly still working through it. >> and to the families. >> on fox news sunday, senator john mccain spoke to chris wallace about america's involvement in the wars in the middle east saying, i also think we've learned a lot of lessons, and frankly i don't think you are going to see the united states of america in another war in that part of the world. i don't think the american public opinion would stand for it. >> wait, let's stop right there. >> i know. >> that's breaking news. that is breaking news. you talk to republican senators, as we have, and democratic senators a lot, because obviously we've been very outspoken in our opposition to the continued expansion of wars over the next decade, and most will say that john mccain is the one that's out front the most, joe conason, waving the flag.

>> i hope he's learned something. some of us feel he ought to have learned something a while ago about this. the first time you and i met, joe, was entering a debate on "hardball" and a lot of the disaster of these was predictable. i supported the war in afghanistan when it first happened. i lived not far from the world trade center when the attack occurred. i was all for going in and getting omar and bin laden but then what came in the wake of that was an orgy of war that i think has cost us tremendously now. and if john mccain has at last figured out that every time you have a nail, don't pretend you have a hammer, that would be good. that would be progress. because there are a lot of alternatives to war and it's not

always the best one. >> i don't know if he'd call it a lesson learned. i think he would characterize his statement differently and we should have him on to do so. now, there's the other side of this, which is donald rumsfeld, who warns against cuts to the defense budget in an interview he did with cnn. >> today with the debt crisis and the deficit crisis, we're about ready to make the same mistake we made after world war ii, after vietnam and korea and then after the cold war, pare down our intelligence, cut the budgets in the defense department and think we can get away with it. >> you know, john meachem, you can't compare what happened after world war ii with what's happening now. after world war ii we were living in a by polar world. we had many reasons to fear the soviet expansion of their military machine. today we have no fears. we spend more money than all of our closest rivals combined militarily. we're spending $2 billion a week

in afghanistan. we've tripled the number of troops there. we are now engaging in wars, dropping drones on at least three, four, five countries, which we haven't even declared war against. war, inc., has exploded and expanded, especially over the last four years. we are now -- again, we are fighting wars in many countries where there's not even a declaration of war. >> i think the fact that we cut defense spending and scaled back in the wake of world war ii would surprise people like truman, marshall, atchison and eisenhower, who ended that decade of the '50s by warning against -- saying we were spending too much in the military industrial complex. perhaps secretary rumsfeld meant world war i where we did cut back and that created an isolationist army which took a long time to fix. >> the most important program

after world war ii was the marshall plan, which was the opposite of military spending. it rebuilt europe as an ally of the united states and our biggest trading partner and a bastion of democracy that was much like ours and that was worthwhile spending. >> but i think the spending on nuclear weapons, which built these forces of armageddon and led to so many misses is significant. i think rumsfeld has set up a straw man here. there is an isolationist worry, i think that's absolutely right, but i think -- >> i don't know how there can be an isolationist worry in 2011 when we are -- when again, we are all over the place. >> i just don't think anybody who knows anything about the defense and intelligence budgets would tell you that they couldn't be cut without compromising the security of the united states at all. >> you can't do it with a straight face at least. >> most people are talking about coming home from iraq, coming

home from afghanistan, closing bases we this need and ending rep wons programs we don't need. we're talking about come home from iraq, come home from afghanistan, stop spending $2 billion a week. >> you go to war with the army you have, as someone once said. >> i'm going to try and get two more news stories in here and then move on because da president obama moves ahead with his plan to tackle the jobs problem in this country. in a rose garden address, the president will push his $447 billion jobs plan calling again on lawmakers to pass the bill quickly. the president is expected to announce that he will send the bill to congress tonight, while reminding lawmakers that his proposals to jump start the economy and create jobs have been supported by both parties in the past. the president will be joined in the rose garden by people from across the country who he says would benefit from the american job act, including teachers, veterans and small business owners. >> all right. >> and also now on to 2012

before we go to break. politics, of course, republican presidential hopefuls are gearing up for a presidential debate tonight in tampa, florida. >> so they have got another one so soon. >> this is michele bachmann's big chance to make a comeback. >> i don't think that's going to happen. >> with rick perry still a front runner in the recent polls, the seven other candidates are expected to continue attacking the texas governor for calling social security a ponzi scheme. but perry is not backing down from his comments. we're going to talk about this later. in a "usa today" op-ed the governor says he will be honest with the american people about challenges facing social security. he writes in part, quote, we must have the guts to talk about its financial condition if we are to fix social security. >> stop right there. if we are to fix social security. >> correct. >> that's the first time governor perry has gone there, because he knows that he screwed up. but how do you want to fix something that you say does

violence to basic american values. how do you want to fix something that you have previously declared unconstitutional. i thought he was a constitutional candidate. are we now to think, willie geist, that this governor from terry, this straight-shooting guy -- >> now come on. >> -- is going to work hard to undermine the very constitution that he has sworn to uphold to every last dying -- >> coyote. >> come on now. let him explain himself. >> i know evolution is not his thing, but his views are evolving perhaps. >> he wants to make it financially viable. >> but we made the point last week it's okay to say social security is broken and we have to figure out how to fix it. but to say we need to get rid of it and it's a criminal ponzi scheme perhaps would frighten some americans. >> medicare is the real problem,

everybody knows that. the problem for governor perry is his record on health care in texas is terrible. managing it, you know, running medicaid. he's wasted billions of dollars down there on ridiculous things that he's done so he doesn't want to talk about that. he'd much rather talk about social security. ponzi scheme is a catch phrase that's been used in certain parts of the republican party for many years now. >> right. >> it comes from the kato institute, et cetera. perry just got the memo yesterday that came out five years ago saying never say you're going to get rid of social security. you always have to say you're going to fix it. >> but he's already said it. >> right. >> he is behind the eight ball now because he said it's unconstitutional, that it's against american values. good luck with that one in the florida primary, john meachem. >> i just think that when mitt romney says his prayers at night, i think thanking god for sending rick perry to the race. >> i think you're right. coming up next, chairman of the house committee on oversight and government reform,

congressman darrell issa will join us. also ahead, the untold story of america's secret campaign against al qaeda. it details the dramatic evolution of the war on terror. first, bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> good morning. i'm the bearer of good news for once. no tropical storms, no hurricanes, no record flooding, a nice, quiet weather week. we deserve it. we do have one tropical storm out there, maria, but this storm is going to harmlessly go out to sea. it's going to brush by bermuda. here's what we're looking at on monday. a beautiful day, just a slight chance of a shower or storm in boston and hartford. very warm in the middle of the country. watch what happens, we go from the 90s today in minneapolis, tomorrow fall arrives with a high only around 70 degrees. that will be the trend around the country. hot the beginning of the week and much cooler as we end it. you're watching "morning joe" on this monday, brewed by starbucks. [ woman ] jogging stroller. you've been stuck in the garage

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ted ginn returning the kickoff. getting some running room. hauschka may be the last chance. taking it down the sideline, touchdown! >> ted ginn carried the niners yesterday. joining us, chris who headlines mad dog radio or sirius xm. >> good morning, everybody. >> let's start with the night game, the jets and the cowboys. >> tony romo, how many mistakes can you make? they can't get first downs, he fumbles at the 1 yard line, get the field goal, you're up by two

scores and then he throws the interception and revis, you can't make that throw there. dallas, that's the first time in the history of the cowboys where they have blown a 14-point lead in the fourth quarter. they're 241-0-1. that's how bad this game was yesterday. good job by the jets. you see burress making a big catch, he played well yesterday. if you're jerry jones, imagine flying back to dallas after this game. >> and a huge win on the other side for the jets. >> big win. >> you lose your home opener, everybody is talking about what's wrong with the jets. >> they're not good at home, they're 9-7 in their two years at home and they got a big win and were down. great win for the jets. i can't express enough how bad a loss that is to the cowboys. >> let's talk about cam newton, the rookie, heisman trophy winner, the panthers 422 yards yesterday. >> he can make plays. he played a very good game. arizona won this game by a touchdown on a late punt return,

but newton was the story of the day. they don't expect carolina to be a great team but they have a quarterback. quarterbacks are hard to find. he ran for a touchdown. big, good arm good, touch on the ball. newton played a tremendous game. here's the punt return for the touchdown that won the game for arizona. this is a tremendous performance out of newton. a lot of people thought carolina would only win four or five games. now they'll probably win more based on how good he was yesterday. >> carolina has a quarterback, indianapolis does not it turns out. >> major problem. they're going to have a long year. good job, willie, 100%. kerry collins fumbled snaps left and right. the game was 34-0 at halftime. manning is gone for the year, as you know. the super bowl is in indianapolis, so none of this they can become the first team ever to host the super bowl. that's not going to happen. houston is a good team. houston is a team here but that division is all topsy-turvy because jacksonville, tennessee and indianapolis being bad. this is houston's year to be a

good team. they got off to a good start yesterday. collins is 39 years of age. don't forget he retired and came back. you expect the colts to have 6-10 kind of season. >> just shows you how peyton manning is right there. steelers/ravens. this is usually a good game, these divisional rivals. blowout yesterday for baltimore. >> i thought the ravens were going to play well yesterday. they were sitting on that game last year in the playoffs for a year, a game they blew the lead. pittsburgh had seven turnovers, they were due to beat roethlisberger who had never lost to the ravens, 6-0 as a starter. the ravens went out and played well. flacco threw the ball, they got a big turnover at the start of the third quarter and the referees getting banged up, this is a big, big, big win for the ravens and gets them on a good run here. >> bad day for the steelers or does it look like a different season this year? >> the thing that worries me about pittsburgh is they have an easy schedule. i don't like playing teams off a super bowl loss. i think that takes a lot out of

you as a franchise so we'll see how they regroup. it's something you've got to raise an eyebrow about, 35-7 to your arch rival. every game is really close, i'd be a little concerned. >> and the other new york team, the giants, did not look good yesterday. did not look good in washington. what's going on? >> the redskin convention was g here's a big play at the end of the third quarter. the giants don't have a secondary, a lot of injuries, you're going to be showing a lot of pictures on this show of tom coughlin throwing his gum on the sidelines. the giants might have themselves a long year. >> is this like a 7-9 team. >> the division is not great. the division isn't great but the giants could have one of those -- and it's going to bother a giant fan because, first off the eagles and the jets in their own building, it's going to bother a giant fan this year. >> and you mentioned the eagles, michael vick had a good day yesterday. >> vick played well. he ran the ball well. they killed the rams.

the issue for the eagles is does he stay healthy for 16 weeks. he sometimes wears himself out the way he plays, so the last part of the year he's not as good as he is in the first part and that's when the eagles have had some trouble. but they obvious rehaly have hi they have receivers, they're a trendy pick. >> you don't want to make too much of one week. >> i love green bay. it's hard not to like the packers. i love green bay in the nfc. we haven't seen the patriots yet. i think the jets will be a little inconsistent. now i can't say pittsburgh because of what i saw yesterday. i pick green bay and houston before the year began. now, i did that to be a little trendy. if i get houston right, you'll have me on the air. so i did that, you know, that afc is wide open. you can go any way you want in the afc. >> thank you, mad dog. >> good to be here. >> we'll see you on sirius xm. >> i've got to get my haircut, joe, how are you? >> the summer cut. >> good to see you, pal. >> thanks, mad dog.

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with us now from capitol hill, republican congressman from california, chairman of the house committee on overnight on government reform, representative darrell issa. >> he wants to save the post

office. >> he does want to save the post office. i want to ask him the $64,000 question. the president is delivering his jobs bill to capitol hill today. how do you create jobs in america and what has the president sent to capitol hill today that you can agree with? >> certainly i think that some of the efforts to try to do what we didn't do in the stimulus, which is to deal with some of our crumbling infrastructure, needs to be looked at seriously. i think on a bigger note, government needs to realize it's been part of the problem. as you said, i'm concerned about the post office. it's going to lose $10 billion. a lot of think tanks are saying, okay, we'll just do a bailout. we'll just fudge the figures. and we can't really keep doing that. this is an organization that can be profitable, that can meet all of its responsibilities, but it's going to right size its workforce if it's going to do it. we're not talking about pay cuts, but we are talking about people being retired that are no longer needed because you and i

are e-mailing far more than paper mailing. >> so how many people are you going to push out and what impact is that going to have for me to be able to mail a letter to anybody i want to mail a letter to in america? >> well, universal service is part of the mandate, and we think that's extremely important, that it be maintained. but there are over 140, 150,000 postal workers who are fully eligible for retirement. you add those who will retire over the next several years, you can get the 200,000 or so off the payroll without having to do punitive measures. more importantly, we have a responsibility. the post office, joe, since you were here, has a mandate to be self-sufficient in all senses. including it has to pay into its own retirement, something that they'd like to redo the figures, but the fact is you and i both know that if you redo it with a federal backstop, you and i will be paying for it the way we paid

for so many others, including railroad retirement and so on. >> pulitzer prize winner john meachem has a question. >> congressman, i suspect there's an argument among some folks about just privatize the whole thing. is that part of the conversation at all? >> well, the post office already is a gse, so to speak, a government sponsored enterprise, but it's one that has a mandate that says be self-sufficient, meet your own responsibilities, and we'll let you have different formulas than the rest of the government. they have a different formula for their health care and so on. the important thing, though, is they have gone the wrong way. they have gone from having no debt to $15.5 billion in debt. that tells us as a businessman that no matter what they say, they have more than a small cash flow problem. they have declining revenues and they haven't rationalized the hard and soft assets.

hard assets being, obviously, post offices. but the soft assets, which is 80% of their costs, are human beings. if you've got too many human beings, you'll build in inefficiency, you'll use labor poorly and that's what's been happening and it's why we have to get this right. it's why the postmaster is asking for various authorities, including one that would allow him to let people go if he closes a post office. we think that the more proactive thing to do is to find ways to encourage people to retire who are well past retirement age and fully vested. >> is to some extent the postal service unions the new teachers unions? >> well, the postal service unions are diverse. look at the rural letter carriers, they already have a contract. basically is volume goes down, they lose people. they have a whole process of, if you will, piecework, while some of the other unions have no layoff, no reductions and volume

has been shrinking. so i think you have to deal with those individually. and that's for the postmaster to do. what we're looking at doing is giving the authority with a mandate to get to break even or a profit to the postmaster and his governing board. that's what our bill does. it's why we want ours rather than a bailout. it's why most of the major newspapers that have yet spoken have spoken in favor of this bill, because it actually gets the post office back on the right track without any real loss of service. the service you expect, whether you're in new york city or on an island far in the north of alaska. >> congressman, it's willie gei geist. i want to ask you more broadly about jobs. you listened to the president's speech last thursday night. >> i did. >> you said you were frustrated because you said you thought it sounded more like a second stimulus than a new approach. was there something in there, a big idea that will affect actual change that you saw perhaps you could agree with the president and found some common ground with him? >> well, there were a couple of areas and one of them is

slightly off of the main subject but i'll bring it up. he talked social security in the sense of us coming up with a may to amend it, don't end it, if you will, realizing that social security is money in, money out, and we should be acting to make sure that it's solvent well into the future. so i thought that was a very non-partisan sort of outreach that he made within the speech. there are tougher issues. whether or not the federal government borrows money from overseas sources to keep teachers in xyz state on the payroll seems to be stimulus too. it seems to be something that the state has to decide what the right number of teachers are and not have us borrow money from overseas to keep $30 billion worth of money to try to aid the states. we did that once, it's time for us to say states have to step up to the plate. that's a good example where i don't think that belongs in this stimulus bill. i don't think we should maintain government workers with borrowed

money. >> all right. congressman darrell issa, it's always good to see you. thank you very much. good luck with everything. "business before the bell" is next. look at all this stuff for coffee. oh there's tons. french presses, espresso tampers, filters. it can get really complicated. not nearly as complicated as shipping it, though. i mean shipping is a hassle. not with priority mail flat rate boxes from the postal service. if it fits it ships anywhere in the country for a low flat rate. that is easy. best news i've heard all day! i'm soooo amped! i mean not amped. excited. well, sort of amped. really kind of in between. have you ever thought about decaf? do you think that would help? yeah. priority mail flat rate shipping starts at just $4.95, only from the postal service. a simpler way to ship.

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all right, after a sharp drop on wall street friday, the same concerns out of europe are hitting overseas markets today. they are denying default rumors, will global investors respond. >> well, let's go to wall street and simon hobbs with business before the bell. >> reporter: good morning, joe. yeah, we are looking at another lower open here. it appears as europe just lurches from one crisis to the other. the greeks over the weekend attempted to raise another two billion euros with an emergency property tax. the unions are going to try to block that and if there's still a hole in the budget they might not get the money from eu imf. the selloff from the european banks is coming more and more

extreme and really we're still reeling from that resignation of stark at the head of the european central bank, one of the six strong management team. that's a huge issue for the markets because it highlights the degree to which europe may not cooperate in ultimately solving its problems, not the least of course this very important buying of bonds that you've had by the european central bank, italian bonds, spanish bonds to support those bond markets, those local governments, if you like, and that's essentially a very political move and it is one not going down well in germany at a time when angela merkel needs the bailout. it sounds complicated but i'm afraid it's more of the same. >> something that's not more of the same, though, on the front of most financial papers across the world today, certainly across america, big news when jpmorgan chase ceo jamie diamond said some of the legislation coming out of washington, d.c., is, quote, unamerican.

there is a real disconnect right now between wall street and washington, isn't there? >> yes. certainly jamie diamond is very angry that the capital requirements, the buffers of cash, if you like, the top banks around the world will have to hold under new international rules is quite penalizing as far as he is concerned. of course it may not apply to many of the asian banks and therefore he feels they will have an advantage moving forward and it's how you determine what those capital buffers are made of that he thinks are potentially anti-american. certainly he would like the american regulations because these are international rules to play a harder game of ball when they go around to determine that. >> but simon, aren't some of these big banks getting low-interest deals from the government and turning around and making more money on it? why can't they give loans to small businesses? what's stopping them? >> reporter: well, in the article, jamie diamond says they have facilitated trillions of

dollars of loans. he feels that jpmorgan sticks out as being a bit of a beacon in an industry that clearly a lot of the public simply don't like. >> simon, thank you very much. up next, untold details of america's campaign against al qaeda. we'll be right back. i know you're worried about making your savings last and having enough income when you retire. that's why i'm here -- to help come up with a plan and get you on the right path. i have more than a thousand fidelity experts working with me so that i can work one-on-one with you. it's your green line. but i'll be there every step of the way.

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all right, welcome back to "morning joe." 48 past the hour. joining us now, pulitzer prize-winning reporter for the "the new york times." eric schmidt. eric is co-author of the new book "counter strike, the untold story of america's secret campaign against al qaeda." it's very good to have you on the show. >> it really is. we have a full screen of -- >> this is the article about bush and obama side by side at ground zero. >> we were talking about 43 and 44 standing together yesterday and the fascinating challenges of both of these men, horrifying challenges that they have both faced. >> and this was in "the new york times" and it says in part this, the tab low was striking.

the president, who spent years hunting bin laden next to the one who finally got him. the president defined by his response to september 11th standing alongside the one who has tried to take america beyond the lingering complicated legacy of that day. extreme challenges for both these men, and probably in the end maybe in retrospect we will feel that both were misunderstood. is that fair? >> a little bit. i think you look at both presidents as they stood there yesterday and you could see the legacy of one being picked up by the other. certainly as we talk about in our booing, the initial reaction right after 9/11 was for the military to go and try to kill and capture its way to victory. this, after all, was an administration that really didn't know much about al qaeda. in fact we had sources tell us that were people who were in the white house that were asking al who? so you fast forward ten years and the government knows a lot more about al qaeda and terrorist networks and they're also approaching the fight in a much more whole government way,

not just from the military and intelligence. >> and they're doing it so aggressively. >> yeah, they are doing it aggressively and it's interesting the bush administration and the cia's focus then was kicking down doors, capturing terror suspects, going and interrogating them. the obama administration's is a bit more blunt, a bit more messy. they're dropping drones, not only in afghanistan but pakistan and somalia and yemen, possibly nigeria, all across the globe. who would have ever expected that would have been president obama's response? >> exactly. i think what this shows is think of drones as a tactic. what this administration has set out to do is try to enable these governments to beat terrorists on their own. it turns out you've got unreliable and sometimes unable allies in places like pakistan, yemen, the u.s. and cia is having to carry out some of these attacks, such as drones,

even with some of the consequences that it has in public blowback in those countries. >> it's been interesting watching the obama administration after railing on the bush administration and all they did on the so-called war on terror adopting many of the policies. what can you tell us about the transition where they came from a campaign, became an administration and started reading the daily briefings and realizing it's going to be a little more difficult than they thought? >> i think what you've seen is once you're in government, obviously much more difficult to tackle these problems. what you've seen, though, is probably more continuity than dramatic change from obama, from bush to obama. president obama in his first year in office, however, did escalate the number of drone strikes. more drone strikes were fired in pakistan in his first year, 2009, than the entire eight years of the bush administration. 2010 that number doubled again so it shows the threat still coming out of pakistan even as the main al qaeda leadership there has been degraded by all the attacks. >> what does your reporting show about -- >> by the way, it is very

exciting. one pulitzer prize winner interviewing another pulitzer prize winner. >> let me ask you a question, eric. did you take a picture of yourself when you won yours? >> again, very quickly. this is the last person on the planet to talk about pictures of one's self. this is like saddam's iraq around here. speaking of wmd -- >> you know what, though, we don't have one actually -- we don't have one actually living in our closet, so we'll have to do that, because you did. >> you say that, you say that. speaking of living in the closet, how are our assets in pakistan at this point? does the intelligence community feel they're in better shape than they were certainly ten years ago obviously, but even say five years ago? >> obviously there's been some tension, obviously some strong tensions between the u.s., the cia and the pakistani spy agency, the isi, particularly after the raid on osama bin laden's safe house in may.

the thinking is how could possibly bin laden have been hiding there for years in the shadow of one of pakistani's top military academies without pakistani knowledge or complicity. so far the government says there is none but there have been tensions throughout this relationship. it's an off again, on again one as pakistan both tries to go after al qaeda, supporting the united states, but also supporting some of the militant groups in afghanistan killing allies and u.s. troops there. >> when we talk about the shift of what the president said on the campaign compared to what he did once he got in office, we were talking to somebody in the agency that was responsible for giving the briefing, the first briefing after the election. and they called it o.s. briefing. that's what it was called because everybody that ever got it said the same thing. it was eye-opening. even to joe biden who had been in the government forever, but joe biden, barack obama absolutely stunned at the

threats that were out there that nobody could imagine unless they were sitting in that position. did that have a huge impact moving forward? >> we talked to several of those individuals who briefed then senator obama as he was coming into office and it was exactly that reaction. particularly then, even as you're looking at al qaeda and pakistan, which most people focus on, as you were talking about earlier in the program, they're now affiliates and are probably more dangerous than that part of al qaeda. the affiliate in yemen, for instance, which was responsible for the so-called underpants bomber. ten months later, same outfit, packs explosives in printer cartridges and puts them on air cargo planes and tries to fly them. both plots successfully thwarted but it shows how small-scale plots are more dangerous than the large scale mass casualty ones. >> is it safe to say the epicenter of al qaeda is not in afghanistan? >> it's shifting to other places. >> eric schmidt, thank you. the book is "counter strike."

up next, what did we learn today. fix it or find a new job, all right? i got it, i'm sorry. these people, huh? you know i've found that anger is the enemy of instruction. you don't know the egos that i have to deal with. you're probably right. thank you! whoever you are. i'm pretty sure that was phil jackson. quite famous... million championships... triangle offense innovator... [ male announcer ] the audi a8. named best large luxury sedan. nice wheels zen master. thank you...todd. ♪

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