only the 11th quarterback in nfl history to throw for 500 yards or more in a game. pat beats up on the dolphins 38-24. we asked you what you were doing up at this hour. rob, welcome back. >> thanks, willie. the first e-mail is from jodie geist. >> oh, wait. >> i've been up most of the night worrying about your sister's wedding on saturday. i hope you take my mind off of it. >> mom, thanks for being awake. bill karins promises sun and only sun >> johnny writes, realizing i should have never eaten that huge bag of cotton candy before bed time. can you say sugar rush to the 25th power? >> what are you, 6 years old? i love our audience. "morning joe" starts right now. do you still believe that social security should be ended as a

federal program as you did six months ago when your book came out and returned to the states? >> i think we ought to have a conversation. >> we're having that right now, governor. >> yes, sir. if you'll let me finish i'll finish this conversation. but the issue is, are there ways to move the states into social security for state employees or retirees? we did in the state of texas back in the 1980s. i think those types of thoughtful conversations with america, rather than trying to scare seniors like you're doing and other people, it's time to have a legitimate conversation in this country about how to fix that program. >> governor, the term ponzi scheme is what scared seniors, number one. number two, suggesting that social security should no longer be a federal program and return to the states and unconstitutional is like wise frightening. there are a lot of very bright people who agree with you. that's your view. i happen to have a different one. i think social security is an essential program that we should

change the we are funding it to make sure it -- >> you said if people did it in the private sector it would be called criminal. that's in your book. >> yeah. what i said was --, governor perry, you have to quote me correctly. what i said was congress taking money out of the social security trust fund is like criminal and that is and it's wrong. >> well now. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is tuesday, september 13th. with us onset we have the director of the earth institute at columbia university, dr. jeffrey sachs and financier and "morning joe" economic analyst steve ratner joins us as well. good to have you both onboard. they picked apart the word ponzi scheme to the point where he had to go there. >> yes. i don't know that ponzi scheme is his biggest problem. because you can always say something is a ponzi scheme but then you can go back and say

let's fix it. >> it's that he didn't take it to the next level from the get-go and now we have to back track and try and take it to the next level. >> i don't know how many levels actually, watching him last night, i don't know how many levels. >> stop. >> no, i know. this is very legitimate. >> okay. >> after listening to him talk last night in detail i do not know how many levels there are to rick perry. but i do know this. let me finish my thought please. >> please. >> i do know this. the phrase "ponzi scheme" is not rick perry's biggest problem. the word that he's going to have to wrestle with during republican primaries let alone a general election is the word unconstitutional. because when you call social security the lifeblood for tens of millions of senior citizens not only now but through the ages over the past 08 years,

when you call that unconstitutional, when you talk as he did last night i got to admit this is about as funny as anything i heard on curb your enthusiasm. which by the way -- >> oh, my lord. an incredible kick off. >> larry david hit .400. but to say he is going to take social security back to the states, the states that are bankrupt, the states that can't handle medicaid, the states that are not set up to handle social security defies all logic. that said, willie, it was like a wrestling match and he had the crowd on his side. it was a hometown crowd for rick perry. a lot of them just weren't bothered with facts. >> he got a cheer for almost everything he said, particularly when he turned his sights to mitt romney or zinged him back whether it was factual or not. >> you know what his best statement was? "mm-hmm." seriously. he said, you called it criminal.

no he didn't. didn't come close to saying that. >> but there were cheers for other strange things, like michele bachmann again proudly declaring she was the only one who said we should not raise the debt ceiling. that drew big applause. ron paul saying churches should take care of the sick rather than medicaid and things like that. it was a different crowd. >> there were cheers again when they called ben bernanke treasonous which was incredible. on the perry thing i agree with you. i think ponzi scheme can be explained. it actually is a ponzi scheme in a certain way in that there is nothing in the trust fund but he did not back off a bit about what was in his book about turning social security back to the states. it was incredible. >> it's preposterous. it can't happen. i thought mike murphy who is a republican strategist, i thought mike put it best last night. >> oh, really? he was talking? >> he was tweeting. this is what he said. listening to perry trying to put a complicated policy sentence together is like watching a

chimp play with a locked suitca suitcase. i am not associating myself with those comments. that said, he is, willie geist, a republican. >> seriously. there are some things you just can't say but watching rick perry last night try to talk poli policy, pass a quick sound bite, a shot of coyote in the face. >> come on. >> beyond that it gets pretty depressing. and i'm sorry. i know republican primary voters as you get past the first couple states and i've seen them time and time again chew up and spit out guys like this who are the flavor of the month. i just don't see rick perry surviving past march. >> we are going to see some new polls from cnn that have him not only leading the field but saying he has the best shot of beating barack obama. >> seriously? >> by a margin of 16%.

>> cnn has, you know, the polling, but they've got a special unit and this is the guiliani unit. these are the people that polled at the same time four years ago and told us guiliani would beat hillary clinton. >> i just would be very careful at what you say right now. the two i guess -- can i talk to the economist? >> i want to talk to him. >> i want to talk about the fees iblt of sending social security back to the states. you go ahead. >> go ahead, dr. sachs. >> i think there was a little misstatement and over statement in all of this social security is not a ponzi scheme and not bankrupt and is not going to be sent back to the states. if you look over a 75-year period which is what the trustees of social security do every year in an annual report, they say there is some modest fixing that will be required. it's not fully funded over 75

years. it's not broke. it's not running outd of money. older people should not be scared the way that these debates and governor perry and others are terrifying people right now. >> how fascinating though that he chooses social security instead of medicare, which really is in trouble. how fascinating. >> so much hot button and ideology. >> yeah. >> and it's fact free. >> and pandering to voters. >> it is completely scary to people who are watching and listening. it's completely unjustified. >> he did go out of his way yesterday i think for the first time in a debate anyway to start his answer about that by saying, listen. if you're getting social security now or you're going to get it in the next ten years, you're fine. we're not going to touch it. i'm talking to mid career young people. >> people who are 50 and younger are not going to have social security. >> of course they are because -- >> of course they are. >> even if we stuck with the current system, there would be some modest decline of benefits. that's what the trustees' report

shows. >> yes. >> but with a modest change either very gradual in raising the age limits or raising the payroll taxes over a 75-year period you can close these also. >> here's the thing, mika. rick perry is trying to fight an ideological battle that republicans lost in 1938. i'm dead serious. they lost it in 1938. i mean, dwight eisenhower, when he became president in january of 1953, basically stamped america's approval of both sides on social security and on other fdr programs. >> i think the way dr. sachs put it, it is a conversation i think americans can have about social security that is very realistic, but rick perry chose the wrong words and the wrong battle and he's getting nailed on it. it just may not feel that way when you listen to the audience. mitt romney and rick perry also sparred over their records on

job creation. this is pretty good too. when asked if governor perry deserves credit for creating more jobs in texas than any other state romney implied perry had an advantage. >> i think governor perry would agree with me if you don't have four aces that doesn't necessarily make you a great poker player. and the four aces that are terrific aces the nation should learn from were the ones i described. zero income tax, low regulation, right-to-work state, oil in the ground and a republican legislature. those things are terrific. there has been great job growth in texas. under ann richards job growth was 2.5% a year. under george bush it was 3% a year. under rick perry it's been 1% a year. those arl good numbers. >> i was going to say, mitt you were doing pretty good until you got to talking poker. >> seriously. >> wow. >> seriously. i'm sorry. >> last night's debate comes as a new cnn opinion research poll shows 42% of republican voters

think governor perry has the best chance in the general election against president obama. 26% say mitt romney has the best chance. and just 5% say michele bachmann. >> in a similar poll the same republicans were questioned on who had the best chance of winning the world series. >> right. >> their answer? the baltimore orioles. let's take a look right now at mark halprin's score card. >> oh, yeah. >> let's see here. mitt romney. >> interesting. >> b plus. perry b minus. bachmann c minus. huntsman c minus. gingrich c minus. all the way down. so i must say, most observers would have given huntsman, let's keep that up, a failing grade. conservatives and liberals alike skewered his performance. bachmann was a bit stronger than in the last debate. she had disappeared but last night seemed to fight back.

>> she was back a bit. i think the story of this debate, these debates is that romney has actually done pretty well. he's been steady, on his game. he actually last night was not playing the two party crowd in the audience but the more moderate voters in america. i thought he did a pretty good job of that. >> and, again, moderate. the word "moderate" has been -- >> a relative term. >> it is a relative term. he was actually talking to main stream conservatives. he was talking to the people that elected ronald reagan in 1980 and 1984 and george h.w. bush in '88, you know. he was talking to main stream conservatives. i think that strategy pays off in the end. >> i agree. and compared to some of the rest of them who are playing to that audience and saying some of the most incredible things, i think romney has positioned himself pretty well. as you said, there are polls that show guiliani ahead four years ago. i don't put much stock in these polls. i think romney is quite well

positioned. >> i think he is, too. i think he is playing it perfectly. we've got some news. i want to go quickly to a story that is fascinating me right now. we have jeffrey sachs here and when the doctor is in -- >> got a new book coming out by the way. >> can't wait. >> really. when is it out? >> october 4th. >> okay. we'll be debuting that. >> i can tell you what my family is going to be doing halloween. >> exactly. >> no question about it. >> we're going to sit around and -- i want to talk about the lead in the "new york times", a seismic shift in not only european politics but european economics. germany is carrying -- we've said it for some time -- they are carrying europe on their shoulders right now. the "new york times" reporting this morning that the chairman faces key choices on rescuing euro. we americans like to complain and i think justifiably so at times of carrying the world on

our shoulders over the past 50 years. but there is no doubt that there is a reason to be a little bitter right now about carrying europe on their back. >> i think they better be careful because the bitterness takes the top billing right now. they're going to blow apart their own economy as well. >> but they are obviously carrying some reckless countries' loads. >> well, of course, what happened is that countries like greece, spain, portugal, the southern tier of europe got into the same kind of trouble that we did with the housing boom -- bubble and that broke. they have high unemployment right now. they can't pay their debts on time without some rescheduling of those debts. the germans are being pretty tough on those countries but if they're too tough and push them over the ledge, actually the euro, that second main currency in the world, would be pulled apart. there would be a financial collapse. believe me, that would hit here. that would hit around the world.

and i really do think they're playing with fire. they've been pushed to the limit. merkel faces internal opposition in germany. the germans are saying why should we pay for greece? but the fact of the matter is if you push too hard and just say we're not going to do anything and you blow your currency apart, germany will go down. europe will suffer. >> i understand that but, steve, how does any politician go to his or her constituents and say, i understand? we did things right. we weren't as reckless as the other countries but we're going to have to keep paying. i'm not saying they should do it. i'm just saying the politics from merkel have to be terrible. >> two things on this. first of all, this is a lot like what went on in the u.s. in 2008 in a sense with t.a.r.p. it was very unpopular. president bush did the right thing against all sort of polls. obama followed through on it. and it worked.

so she's got a similar situation. the second thing is that the politics inside germany are in detox. remember one thing. the euro has been the best thing that's happened to germany in a long time because the euro has allowed germany to become the world's second largest exporter and with the euro at $1.35 germany is not -- if you talk to the german business community they all want the euro and their attitude is basically do whatever it takes to save the euro. this is great for germany because we can sell stuff. >> and here at home barack obama, mika, trying to figure out how to sell his jobs plan. >> well yeah. they look within. he is going to be going to john boehner's home state and trying to sell the jobs package. this is in the hands of congress now. so the big sell is on. we'll talk about that coming up more. coming up also the "new york times" columnist thomas friedman, david axelrod, chuck todd, and "the washington post"

genome robinson. up next we have the top stories in this morning's political playbook. first here is bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> we're waving good-bye to summer in a lot of locations this week and key can do that in minneapolis, kansas city, minneapolis, chicago. looks like your heat is over. in texas it continues. this is eye popping. 103 yesterday in dallas. today we're going to be 106. it's never been this hot this late in the summer. just a really cruel time for that drought-stricken area. on the east coast it's looking beautiful today, very much like the middle of summer. mid 80s. a little humidity. but it will be dry. and appreciate it because it is going to be over soon. look what happens in washington, d.c. today upper 80s. then by friday in the upper 60s. that's your high temperature. as i said before, texas is reel it spot to watch today. san antonio, houston, oklahoma city, everyone will be in the hundreds. you don't cool off until about thursday. also get a free flight.

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already filled. cool bike. because the business with the best technology rules. it's scary. 20 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. we'll get to that. we'll get to that in politico. the guardian and state international says both rebels and pro gadhafi forces have perpetrated killings, kidnappings, and torture during the six-month-long uprising against the libyan regime. the group says rebel government officials have shown willingness to improve prison conditions and avoid future abuses. >> the "new york times", kenyan officials estimate more than 100 people may have died in a fire. >> this is incredible. >> while trying to scoop up oil from the leaking pipes.

this is not the first time scores of poverty-stricken kenyans have died in a spilled fuel blaze. in 2009 at least 113 were burned to death after a huge crowd descended on an overturned gasoline tanker which then blew up. let's go to "the financial times." this week the british government will pressure global internet giant google to block more copy right infringing websites and search results opening a new front in the battle against online piracy in the uk. if no industry led solution can be found lawmakers are prepared to put up a fight in the forthcoming communications bill. you have a piece in ft today, steve. >> i think it will get us out of this recession. >> you should read it. amazing. >> turn to "the miami herald." after four decades of service amtrak could see some major changes that are going to shift u.s. rail service to a private operator. the national rail system has struggled for survival nearly every year since its first

trains left the station in 1971. now it's caught in the middle of a washington spending fight. while some lawmakers want to eliminate amtrak all together others are pushing to turn over pieces of the 22,000 mile network to private entities more equipped to take over the costs while the chinese are laying the thousands and thousands and thousands of miles of the new light speed rail, we are dismantling our aging rail system. >> "albany times union" after baegt human contestants on the tv game show "jeopardy" super computer watson is tasked with fixing the u.s. health care system. it will help insurers diagnose medical problems and authorize treatments. ibm has not released any of the detafls the dea financials of the deal. >> seriously. the nerd in the back of the

school. >> almost an snl sketch. we're going to have a computer fix our health care problems. send in watson. >> what is a cold? >> it's time for our announcement. should we make it now, willie? >> sure. >> what do you think? okay. are you ready? >> go ahead. >> along with our show sponsor starbucks morning joe has made a commitment to education. we're inspiring schools now to help along with this. we started this in april. the starbucks gold post blend, it's the "morning joe" edition. have you bought one? you didn't go look for it in the store did you? >> i went in screaming and yelling in stanford, connecticut. >> it's now available. >> they are here. >> it's there, joe. not to worry. >> that's right. so anyway, actually in the stores all across the country. >> i know. >> nationwide. >> beginning october 4th you can buy specifically marked bags with $5 donor stickers for

customers. you buy these and starbucks gives $5 to public school classroom projects of your choice including projects in your own hometown. >> they want to get up to $600,000 given to schools and this is going to be a donation for every code entered through december 31st. so donations can be directed to existing projects on donors choose.org where any public school teacher can post a project. really cool idea. >> the whole idea is you go and buy these bags. it's part of our big education push with starbucks. you decide how do you want the money spent, what schools do you want it to go to. >> have you had it yet? is it good? >> it's great. our other coffee, jeffrey sachs is laughing because when they first got the bags out, i said it's cool. we got our own morning joe bag. >> sure. >> it took me three or four

months to go, wait. i haven't actually tasted this. so i panicked. it tastes really good. but starbucks says it has turned into the top selling brand. >> wow. >> and now we have this. >> donors choose. it's great. you don't just throw money into a bag and not know where it's going. you see listed what teachers need and can choose a certain way. donors choose.org. >> there are some school projects that teach students specifically not -- but we're also forced -- we went to crenshaw a couple months ago. we went to new orleans. >> we're going to a school in the bronx. >> we're going to a school every quarter and our goal is also every month to highlight innovation and education and so we're going to be up in the bronx this time. jeffrey sachs, it's sort of been a messy start and stop for education reform but i just -- i

really get the feeling this may be something our political system gets right in time. i think most people realize the status quo is at least k-12 just not sustainable. >> somebody is going to get it right whether it's the u.s. or other countries. you know, i think technology really is going to play a huge role in the future, kids talking to kids around the world, using i.t. technologies. i've seen the classroom change in unbelievable ways, really thrilling ways. in poor countries it's even more dramatic. because these are places that were completely cut off. they didn't have libraries. they didn't have anything. all of a sudden they're online, able to do things that are amazing and inspiring for the kids. i am seeing huge changes and i hope the u.s. grabs on to it. >> i hope so too. you have people involved in it who are involved in an

organization where people buy computers for a hundred bucks. she goes up into the mountains of colombia. >> so cool. >> these kids actually have computers and they, you know, so a lot of exciting things happen. but you're right. we've got to move forward and have a loft different people coming from a lot of different sources with innovation and start creating 21st classrooms in this country. i don't think we're there yet. >> we're seeing communities really starting to take the lead among themselves so i hope i can join you in the bronx. that would be fun. >> we're looking at some of the neighborhoods in the bronx where there is a real potential for breakthrough. >> for sure. time now for politico. willie? >> let's turn to politico. joining us now the chief white house correspondent there with a look at his world famous playbook. hello, mike. >> good morning, guys. i love this public school partnership between starbucks, "morning joe" and donors choose. i have to ask though does the morning joe edition of starbucks

come with like quintuple caffeine? >> i think it might. i'm sniffing it right now. >> mika is bouncing off the walls from the fumes. >> wow. >> i think it is. >> way to go. >> why don't you go back to director school? >> all right. let's talk about the debate. >> can we spend $5 to try to find a new director? >> that's a good idea. >> actually post it on donors choose. needs director. there you go. two debates now under rick perry's candidacy. every candidate again last night taking shots at him. michele bachmann took issue with perry's use of the executive order to vaccinate girls against hpv bypassing the state legislature. she also accused perry of signing the order because of a campaign connection with the drug maker merck. listen. >> it's wrong for a drug company because the governor ace former chief of staff was the chief lobbyist, for this drug company. the drug company gave thousands

of dollars in political donations to the governor and this is just flat out wrong. the question is, is it about life or was it about millions of dollars and potentially billions for a drug company? >> i'll let senator santorum hold off for a second. you have to respond to that. >> yes, sir. the company was merck and it was a $5,000 contribution that i had received from them. i raise about $30 million and if you're saying that i can be bought for $5,000, i'm offended. >> i'm offended for all the little girls and the parents that didn't have a choice. that's what i'm offended for. >> so, mike, actually the number was 30,000. he got 5,000 that year and 30,000 total. >> didn't his chief of staff go to work for him? >> his chief of staff was a lobbyist for merck. >> that is much more the point. >> what's that? >> explain that. >> this was a real surprise. who thought that social security would be the least of rick

perry's problems? as we saw in that clip there's been a real change in the ecology of this race. we thought mitt romney's path to victory would be one by one having the others drop off but what we see here is having these conservatives in the race, people running against them from the right is helping mitt romney. they're doing his dirty work. they're chipping away at rick perry. it looks now like mitt romney would be fine with michele bachmann, rick santorum staying in the race for a while. they're not hurting him. he's consolidating his establishment support as we saw yesterday with the endorsement he got from tim pawlenty. they're taking these shots at rick perry. what we saw there is it's not the check that was the problem. it's the combination of the former staffer who became a lobbyist for a manufacturer. you have a very potent combination there. you have the cronyism issue at the same time you have a family values issue. that's tough with a republican crowd. >> after the debate last night in her analysis sarah palin took

up for michele bachmann accusing rick perry of crony capitalism in this case. as you pointed out you had rick santorum dinging perry on illegal immigration, ron paul dinging him on taxes in the state of texas. so mitt romney as you say getting a little help from other conservatives. one other thing to point out bobby jindal endorsing rick perry and tim pawlenty going out for mitt romney. what do you make of those? >> we saw them already out working for the candidates yesterday. bobby jindal was in the spin room working for rick perry. tim pawlenty jumped out in a hurry. mitt romney we hear may help him retire some of his debt. tim pawlenty had a six figure debt. in the next couple weeks he makes that go away with mitt romney's help just a little thanks to his new friend. >> there you go. thanks so much for a look inside the politico playbook. we'll talk to you soon. >> have a great week. >> coming up week one of the nfl. tom brady already breaking nfl records. did you see what he did last

night throwing for more than 500 yards? wow. against the dolphins. pro football next. where'd ya go? there you are. there you go. [ female announcer ] you always went for the tall, dark, handsome types. so who'd have ever thought the love of your life... would be short and bald? having a baby changes everything.

36 past the hour. live look at the capital this morning. a quick look at the headlines. welcome back to "morning joe." members of congress putting bickering on pause as a large group of lawmakers joined in song for a display of post 9/11 patriotism on the steps of capitol hill yesterday. the 20-minute ceremony to mark the tenth anniversary of the attacks culminated with a rendition of "god bless america." just as lawmakers did shortly after the attacks in 2001. all right. let's go to sports now with willie. >> recapture that spirit. >> yeah. go ahead, willie. >> let's do some sports. a plons tmonster night in monda

football for tom brady. patriots take on the dolphins in miami. in the second half we show you this interception for a reason. it snaps brady's nfl streak of 358 passes without an interception. runs it back to the 9 yard line setting off a dolphins' touchdown but that was brady's only mistake. in the third quarter welker for a two-yard touchdown and a few minutes later aaron hernandez in the back of the end zone. this was the big blow in the fourth. backed up at their own 1 yard line brady floats one out to welker. watch this on the corner. get off me. 99-yard touchdown. welker is gone. brady throws for four touchdowns and, get this, 517 yards. >> isn't that just -- >> a patriots franchise record. only 37 yards shy of the nfl single game record. chad henny threw for 416 yards so the quarterbacks in the game combined for 906 passing yards, an nfl record. new england beats the dolphins,

38-24. >> is that a problem with new england's defense obviously? >> well yeah. if you give up 416 to chad henning i'd say you've got a serious problem. the all time record norm van brockland 1951 through for 554 yards. brady only 36 shy of that. broncos and raiders another nfl record last night. in the second quarter oakland kicker sebastian janikowsky. >> no way! >> 63-yard field goal tying the nfl record. ball barely clears the uprights but was clearly good. raiders up, 16-3 at the half. in the fourth darren mcfadden slices through that denver defense 47 yards. down at the 1 yard line and set up a touchdown. raiders beat the broncos. >> 63 yarder. >> now janakowsky joins him. the u.s. open final on monday,

first set after a long back and forth, djokovic with a nice drop shot winner. he would take the first two sets easily. 6-2-64. nadal came back to win the third but in the fourth djokovic put him away up 5-1 on match point. nadal's return is long. the number one seeded djokovic outlasts nadal to win his first u.s. open. djokovic third grand slam trophy of this year capping an amazing season in which he has compiled a record of 64-2 for ten tournament titles. >> this is a big surprise. >> it's his third of the year so he's been dominant all season. we've gone from the federer era of dominance to a quick nadal era and now the djokovic era is he a power hitter? >> he's got a big serve, he's strong, and he's quick. nadal was actually no match yesterday. >> against federer was amazing. >> a five setter comeback.

federer had only lost once in a grand slam after winning the first two sets. djokovic is a star. >> incredible. >> yes. he's the new man on tennis. coming up we'll talk to the "new york times" tom friedman who thinks a political grand bargain is the only way out of our fiscal crisis. watching "morning joe." # sun life financialrating should be famous.d bad, we're working on it. so you're seriously proposing we change our name to sun life valley. do we still get to go skiing?

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oh, i love it. 44 past the hour. we're going to look at must look

at. >> must looks. ooh. >> yes. >> just call it must looks instead of must look at charts. >> oh, that's right. sorry. >> what did we do instead of must reads today? >> must looks. all right. >> let's go through these charts and we talk a great bit on this show about how, yes, we have to take care of the long-term debt crisis but short term, cut infrastructure, cut schools, while china and our competitors are doubling down. you've got some pretty surprising charts on the infrastructure fund. >> i wanted to show you what lies behind the point you have made a lot about infrastructure and whether we're really spending enough time and money on it. the first chart looks at infrastructure spending as a percentage of gdp. what you see is that back in the 1950s when we were building interstate highways and doing a lot of things we got up to about 1.2% of gdp and essentially have been on a straight road down to 0.2%. this is a year or two old so it is probably even lower today. we have in fact been really

cutting infrastructure as a percent of gdp. >> so the peak during the eisenhower years but decline since. >> steady decline since. >> okay. >> if you look at the report card on this done by the american society of civil engineers you see that they give us -- >> not very good. >> not very good. c minus, ds, and so forth. then they sum the whole -- >> aviation d. >> school buildings d. >> by the way, in 1988 they gave aviation a b minus and now it's down to a d. >> we're collapsing. >> if you sum it up they give us a d. $2.2 trillion to fix the problem. what is also interesting is if you look at our ranking compared to other countries, world economic forum numbers, we've dropped from seventh in the world back in 2001 to 24th in the world today behind countries like malaysia, spain, portugal, barbados. >> what's the impact of this on the united states? what is the long-term impact of us refusing to invest in infrastructure?

>> it's all kinds of investment. we have shifted government spending from investment to more consumption oriented things so the impact in the long run is simply that we have a less productive economy. if you have airports and highways and transit systems that don't function as well, businesses can't produce things, can't get them to customers as easily. you have lower growth and a less productive economy. >> jeffrey sachs, what is the long-term impact to the united states not investing in their infrastructure? >> well, we can't compete now. we can't create jobs that are internationally competitive. and it's getting worse because these trends that we're looking at, when you look at the deal that was made last month by the white house and congress, it's to squeeze even more. so we're just in a self-created, downward spiral of our competitors now. >> again, it's not like we're trying to push infrastructure projects for moral reasons. we're trying to push infrastructure projects for

economic reasons. >> one side wants to just cut them all out and, unfortunately, the white house went for the so-called, quote, shovel ready projects which never existed because you can't build american infrastructure with shovels over one or two years. and so we've had a lack of seriousness in this country for a long time and we make deals to, quote, close the deficit by closing government. >> right. >> and what are we going to get? we'll get rising unemployment. we're going to get lower wages. we're going to get less ability to compete internationally. both parties are part of this, unfortunately. >> it's not just infrastructure. it's the whole concept of government investing rather than government consuming. if you look at the president's latest proposal, which you just alluded to, $447 billion, less than $100 billion could be classified as anything resembling investment. >> i would just say that it's not that choice so much as government investing versus

cutting taxes for corporations and for the rich because that's the choice that we've been on for 30 years. >> well, we haven't cut all of government to give rich people taxes. >> joe, we've had a decline of the corporate tax collections down to the lowest levels that we've had in decades because all of our big name companies are parking their money in tax havens abroad. that we have to go after. that's where the money is. >> okay. >> if you look at the president's proposal, though, this proposal when you combine it with the tax proposal yesterday would actually shift the money away from wealthy people and toward less wealthy people but not toward investment. maybe we can look at r&d. >> i want to explain for people at home to understand this. we're not talking about -- a lot of times people say oh, you're trying to give money away to the poor or whatever. let's just say you're against that. okay? let's just say you feel the united states government has no need. i mean, if somebody has a coma like last night, send them home

and let them die and the audience applauds. let's talk about what is in america's selfish best interest. if you talk about infrastructure, you look at the investment that eisenhower, a republican did back in the 1950s. we've benefited from that for generations. you look at r&d. after sputnik 57, 58, 59. suddenly eisenhower is investing in science. he's investing in new engineers and new mathematicians. that's why we got to the moon in '69. that's why our economy exploded. >> and education. the gi bill and other things we used to invest. >> it made us what we became. it is an investment in beating china, beating brazil, beating other countries economically over the next decade but not only are we cutting infrastructure, we're cutting r&d. >> let's look at r&d. you see a very similar picture and exactly what joe said. if you go back to the kennedy years of going to the moon and all of the things we invested in

we gotd feder federal spending almost 2% of gdp. one other passage in the president's speech the other night that struck me particularly was when he said abraham lincoln was behind the trans continental railroad, behind the foundation of the national academy of sciences, and all in the middle of the civil war as a republican. if you imagine what these republicans would have said about abraham lincoln back in 1862 when he proposed some of this stuff. >> it's hard to believe. let's talk about r&d quickly before we go to break. what are some of the things that we invest in lightly over the past decade in r&d that can make a difference economically for us? >> talk about health care. the national institutes of health and all the money that's gone into research there and breakthroughs and treatments for cancer and things like that. these are all funds that the republicans would love to cut. >> some republicans. >> not you. >> all right. news you can't use is next. we'll be right back.

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what he should do is whatever he wants to do and assume responsibility for himself. my advice to him would have a major medical policy but not before -- >> but he doesn't have it and he needs intensive care for six months. who pays? >> that's what freedom is all about. taking your own risks. this whole idea that you have to take care of everybody --

>> but, congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die? >> no. i practiced medicine before we had medicaid in the early 1960s when i got out of medical school. i practiced at santa rosa hospital in san antonio. and the churches took care of them. we never turned anybody away from the hospital. >> all right. >> is this news you can't use? >> wolf blitzer's question there to start that was, he created a hypothetical, young uninsured american man, slipped into a coma. if he doesn't have insurance what do you do? >> should we let him die? some people say yeah. that will help. >> there were cheers. >> what is going on? >> what is going on? seriously. >> i don't know. >> is that -- >> well, look. the only thing you can do is hope that is a small, self-selected group of america and is not representative of what people really think. >> our values. >> i want to show you one other

clip on a lighter note from the debate. jon huntsman struggled a little bit last night to find his footing. he dropped a nirvana reference. >> oh, excuse me. nirvana. >> here is the connection. he was talking about mitt romney's book, "no apology." and he tried to make a link between the nirvana song "all apologies." we'll show you how that went. >> wow. i don't think anything should be off the table except maybe some of the drama playing out here on this floor today. i mean, to hear these two go at it over here is almost incredible. you've got governor romney who called it a fraud in his book "no apology." i don't know if that was written by curt cobain or not. then you've got governor perry who's calling this a ponzi scheme. all i know, wolf, is that we're frightening the american people who just want solutions. >> he dropped the cobain reference. >> i'm sorry. you know what? i'm going to tip my hat.

he didn't even go to never mind. he went to inutero. you go there in a presidential debate and not nirvana '91 but nirvana '93, i'm sorry. i'm giving huntsman props on this. of course he was really, you could not have picked a worse location. >> you would have been the only one in that room to have given him props. >> a standing ovation. nobody else in that room. >> what's next, willie? >> we get another story. >> i love it. >> please, willie. ♪

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we've grown accustomed to obama acquiescing to republican legislative intrans genetts. what is his strategy to deal with that? >> you should pass this jobs plan right away. pass this jobs bill and we can put people to work rebuilding america. pass this bill. pass this jobs bill. pass this bill. pass this jobs bill. pass this jobs bill. pass this bill right away! >> you know you can repeat it all you want. it's not really -- >> pass this jobs bill. [ laughter ] >> in this political climate -- >> pass this jobs bill. >> touche. >> pretty funny. top of the hour, welcome back to "morning joe." jeffrey sachs is still with us. >> hold on. this is big. >> he is adorable. i'm hoping he has presents for me. joining the table chairman of deutsch incorporated johnny

deutsch. >> hi, kids. >> hi. >> in washington we have pulitzer prize winning column uft for the "new york times." thomas the author of a new book "that used to be us, how america fell behind in a world it invented and how we can come back." >> are you not going to call tom friedman adorable? >> he is, let's think -- >> just because you don't give her your good side. adorable is the word. >> would you go for adorable or smart? clearly thomas friedman has the smart quotient. >> don't ask her. >> this is declining like our country. >> we have a lot to talk about and we have thomas friedman here so we're not going to waste too much time like we usually do on this show. so, tom, we showed a couple charts last hour. one chart showed that we have completely slashed infrastructure spending. another shows how much we have slashed r&d spending. we've got the dismantling of

amtrak right now, while the chinese triple down in their investments on light speed rail across their massive country. it seems to fit right into the premise of your book, who we used to be. >> and how do we come back? >> how do we come back? >> well, joe, myself and my coauthor, you might wonder why we have a backward looking title to what is a forward looking book. "that used to be us." the reason is we argue america actually had a formula for success. we never defined it specifically but if you look at how our most successful presidents behaved beginning with, he wasn't a president, but hamilton, lincoln, right up through eisenhower, johnson, nixon, what you see is they actually enriched this formula, which was built on five pillars. educate our people up to and beyond whatever the technology is whether the cotton gin or

super computer so they can exploit it. second have the world's best infrastructure. all those charts you showed today we have in our book. third, have the most open immigration policy to attract both the most energetic and most entrepreneurial immigrants in the world. fourth, have the best rules for capital investing to incentivize risk taking and prevent recklessness. last, in the 20th century, have government funded research to push out the boundaries of knowledge. that has been our five-part formula for success. now, we have a chapter in the book called "the terrible 2s" which we consider the first decade of the 21st century. one of the worst and possibly the worst in american history. what we do is we go through all five of those indices and show how in all five the arrows are pointing down. that is a terrible direction for the country to behave. >> jeffrey sachs of course what we do now, it's just like planning for planting your caroms.

you don't understand until it's harvest time just how bitter that harvest is. the long-term impact of these short comings we've been talking about for sometime could be devastating for generations. >> tom, i want to ask you, president obama came in and saying all of these things, why didn't he accomplish any of them? >> well, you know, obviously as you know, jeff, he inherited a terrible situation and one of the things we argue in the book is we actually got into this problem not during the 2008 crisis. our book isn't really about obama quite honestly or barely even about his time. we basically argue that this began at the end of the cold war. we did the worst thing a country or a species can do. we misread our environment at the end of the cold war. we interpret it as a victory which of course it was a great victory but we interpreted it as a victory that allowed us to put our feet up when in fact what this victory did was unleash 2 billion people just like us with

our aspirations. i mean, that world out there that we unleashed was like a champagne bottle that had been shaken for 50 years. the cork just came off. >> so you're putting it to the clinton administration first. >> i'm putting it honestly, jeff, to america. because i think we did a lot of good things in the '90s but we did let some of these things slip and kind of put our feet up. then, unfortunately, in the first decade of the 21st century, partly by necessity and partly by excess, we spent the decade chasing the losers from globalization, al qaeda and the taliban, more than the winners from globalization, india, china, and brazil. the combination of the two had a huge impact but there was also, jeff, a values decline. we shifted from a greatest generation that believed in save and invest and we the baby boomer generation opted much more for borrow and spend. and the combination of all of these things, plus the paralysis of our politics has created just

a terrible cocktail for america right now. >> and by the way, this is -- we can talk about this going back to the '90s without specifically putting it on presidents because it's much bigger. >> i really believe that, joe. >> just one president or one political party. but i will tell you, these trends, a lot of these trends started in the 1990s. you talked about the reckless spending. i remember writing in a 2004 book about how the great growth of the 1990s was based on a mirage. it was based on a dot com boom. we certainly did some significant things in the early part of the 1990s, mika, but this is a trend that has been going back to the late '90s at least -- >> well look. >> at least what -- >> if i could add one thing. >> yeah. >> remember in the '90s we benefited from what was in effect a massive tax cut. world oil prices collapsed. and, you know, that was a huge spur to our economy. >> yeah. i think we need to -- sorry.

>> i think that the point i was trying to make yesterday, actually, is about a decline in our values as a country collectively and then ultimately leadership which i want to ask you about, donny, as i read from tom's piece in his sunday column which i think talks about this as well. this of course, the back drop today is the president is heading to ohio today to sell his jobs plan. and that will be happening in speaker boehner's home state and the question is, can he push it through? can he penetrate what i think has become a block around him? but first let me read from tom's column. while president obama has talked generally about a grand bargain, he has never put a detailed offer before the american people and his own party faithful. it was a failure of leadership. thursday night in his speech before congress president obama finally rose to that challenge in a thoughtful, credible, and substantive fashion. i believe most americans want a grand bargain both in substance and in style. they want to see our politicians

working together, acting collectively. we under estimate how much the toxic political rancor in washington today casts a pall over the whole economy and makes everyone want to just hold fast to what they have. several gop leaders indicated they intend to look at it seriously. i sure hope so. with europe heading into a tail spin the world needs america's economy on solid footing more than ever. donny, leadership? >> here is the problem. first of all leadership talking about 13% approval rating in congress. what mr. friedman said as far as the five pillars, inarguable. there are two pillars right now that make me very sad and don't believe we're going to get through it. number one the thing that you touched on is that i think our generation, we're a bloated empire. we are not the greatest generation. we are a generation of consumers and short cuts. we are if you'd study history an empire at every level starts to turn and starts to consume versus produce. secondly, we have a -- last night you watched the debate

where michele bachmann said i was the only one that voted against the debt ceiling and people cheered. something that would have brought our country to its knees. we have a republican congress now that is not -- i'm saying reality -- is not on doing what's right but on bringing down the president. >> i think, unfortunately, your second pillar is -- i think that's too short-sighted. the fact of the matter is, tom, that barack obama owned, and this is not about, again, barack obama. this is about systemic challenges that we face as americans. barack obama for his first two years owned a democratic house and a democratic senate and, yet, the paralysis by large margins and yet the paralysis of washington stopped the type of changes that we needed to implement. >> yeah. there is no question, joe. one of the things we really try to do in our book is start the conversation where we would wish the country would start, which

is what world we're living in. to me the most important thing that's happened over the last 20 years and jeff has written about this eloquently is the intensification of globalization and the i.t. revolution. you know, i point out in the book that when i wrote "the world is flat" in 2004 when i said, the world is flat. we've gone from connected to hyperconnected, basically facebook still didn't exist. twitter didn't exist. the cloud didn't exist. linked in didn't exist. all of those things happened in the last six years. we've gone from a connected to a hyperconnected world. what that means is basically the whole global curve has risen. that is employers today, joe, they have access now to more cheap automation, more cheap software, more -- not just cheap labor but cheap genius anywhere in the world. and as a result, we have a huge challenge to upgrade our education system, to bring the bottom to the average but also to bring the average so much higher so we have more people

starting things and inventing things because we can't bail our way out of this crisis. we've got to invent our way out of this crisis. >> tom, it's willie geist. you heard donny mention the bloated empire. we've seen all the books over the last few years about the last days of rome, sun setting on the american empire. what gives you optimism, though, as you travel around not just the country but the world that america will come through this difficult period better and remain competitive with places like china and india, the countries you mentioned. do you have good reason for optimism? >> you know, we have the chapter in our book called "they just didn't get the word" because what makes us optimists and it is not just a phony optimism, truly, is that this country is still full of people who just didn't get the word. and so they go out and invent stuff and start stuff and create stuff and collaborate with people in ways that, i mean, most don't even know about. we profile these people in the book. there's still huge energy coming

from below, but the problem is right now, as i've said many times, america today, we're like the space shuttle. there's this huge energy coming from below but right now our booster rocket, washington, d.c., is cracked and leaking energy. and the pilots in the cockpit are fighting over the flight plan. so we can't get that escape velocity we need to get into that next level of development. and the reason i've been arguing for a grand bargain so vociferously, something that cuts spending in the proper timing, raises revenues. we have to do that. so we can also invest in our future. we need to do all three things at once. it's a real trick. but i think these people in politics today don't appreciate how much their bitterness is depressing the whole country. i don't know whether it's a 10%, tenth of a percentage point of growth or 1% or 2% but i tell you, you get a deal here in washington, a big deal, and that, alone, i think, will

ignite a huge amount of investment. >> i think the bitterness definitely in congress depresses the country but i think the unemployment rate, the housing problem, and the problems with our banks that some people are confronting is what's really depressing people. people are in bad, bad positions right now. >> well, and our leaders in washington right now just don't seem equipped on both sides of pennsylvania avenue. jeffrey sachs? >> it just does not seem equipped to handle these challenges that tom's talking about. you look at consumer confidence collapsing after the debt ceiling deal. one of the worst collapses as steve showed us in u.s. history of consumer confidence. >> you know, our system, which is a very complicated political system, depends on leadership. and we've had really a string of bad leadership for a while or just ineffective leadership. i go back to reagan, who said that government is the problem and he kind of demonized

government as providing solutions. that went through during the clinton era when i think tom is exactly right. we celebrated the victory in the cold war and then did nothing about recognizing the new world that we're in. then we launched wars and spent the last ten years in useless and incredibly costly wars and then president obama hasn't put forward a plan. i actually don't think that the two days ago that that, or a few days ago, that that's really a plan either. i mean, there may be pieces that are useful or not useful but it's not what one needs at this moment for especially after three years of not having a plan. so we have a very complicated country, complicated political system. >> right. >> we only have one point that focuses the attention. when we have an fdr we get movement. we kind of needed that and haven't had it. >> tom, i want to pick up on something jeffrey said. we spent the last decade -- the

chinese have been making strategic partnerships economically in latin america, in asia, in europe, all across the globe, in africa. we have been dropping bombs over afghanistan, pakistan, iraq, libya, now yemen, somalia, countries where we haven't even declared war. we see more extended militarily now than ever before, less focused militarily now than ever before. donny is talking about declining empyres. i think it is time to dust off paul kennedy's book and look at the rise and fahle the great empires and just ask ourselves, how sustainable is our current military footing? >> you know, look, joe. i supported the iraq war for democracy reasons so i'm as responsible, you know, for encouraging that trend as anybody. and i feel terrible that we have

spent so much money there. we can argue about the war and whether it could have been done better in ten different ways but what we've never done in our history, okay, is launch two wars and then not just not pay the tax increase but have a tax cut. we've never done that in our history. and then add on that the biggest entitlement program i believe since 1965. that was just insane. so when you say -- yes, the wars have been terribly costly but what has taken us completely over the edge was that we cut taxes, didn't pay for these wars, then added a medicare prescription drug entitlement that, you know, we simply can't afford. this was utterly reckless, irresponsible behavior. >> and this is where we can draw, excuse me for one second, donny deutsch, this is where we can draw parallels and i believe there are so many parallels between the bush administration and the obama administration and

partisans on both sides don't like that but no tough choices were made during the bush administration. no tough choices are being made during the obama administration. one of their great achievements, if you ask them, what is one of your great achievements? they will go back to december of 2010 and say, well, you know, we extended the bush tax cuts plus we got unemployment benefits. they blew through along with the help of the republican congress a trillion dollars in one week. no tough choices by republicans or democrats alike anymore. >> choices that obama has had more tax cuts than bush. that he has 1.6% of gdp versus bush's 1.1%. >> triple the number of troops in afghanistan. >> you know, we -- i go back to what i said before. there doesn't want to be any sacrifice anywhere. >> that's it. it's been like that for a decade. >> and we have to start at the top. you talk about leadership going forward. if we all sit around this table and, you know, say the biggest problem is the economy and jobs, we watch the debate last night

where i think about 3% to 4% of the air time was actually on jobs and the economy. our potential next leaders are still not getting it. >> yeah. do you think -- i mean, look. you say decades but i look at the past decades because we had moments in our history when it called on us to rise up as people and we have not. we have bought more flat screens. we have bought bigger homes. we've bought nicer cars while our country declines. you know what? our presidents, plural, haven't asked anything of us. and the biggest moment in our generation, 9/11, we were not asked to sacrifice. >> we were asked to go shopping. >> don't start that. i just want to say we all went shopping. >> here is, listen to tom friedman. okay? here is the problem that too many people make. they go back to 2001. >> i'm not. i'm looking at a whole decade. >> listen to me. that fits into a neat, ideological box, and if you

listen, this problem didn't go back to 2001. it went back to 1991. it is the premise of tom friedman's book, we won the cold war. 1991. christmas day. the soviet union collapses. and what did we do as a country? you can go back to 2001 if it makes you feel better to pin it on george bush. this problem is systemic and has been with us for decades. >> right. okay. well, i am just saying, bill, there are clear moments in our history where a leader could have galvanized america to move forward and sacrifice and you know what? here as well. we're not getting it. >> after the cold war. >> let's go to tom. >> i just want to say one thing. i share both joe and mika's point. compare how eisenhower used the cold war, which was to rally and motivate and inspire the country to build out the highway system, to invest massive amounts in science and missile research, foreign languages. and then compare how bush used

the 9/11. it was to give ourselves a tax cut rather than to call on a country that was just waiting to be drafted. >> yes. >> imagine if the morning after 9/11 when gasoline prices were $1.66 a gallon. >> yes. >> the president said, we're going to phase in a gasoline tax to make this country energy independent and take money from the very people who did this. >> tom, i agree with you though i don't think the country wanted -- was waiting desperately to be drafted. i think they were given exactly what they wanted to hear and it's our problem. read joe's piece in politico by the way. we all need to want to be galvanized to move forward and sacrifice. i don't think over the past ten years america -- it's our problem, too. we have to look in the mirror. look at all the social problems. >> when i hire young people -- >> can't believe it. >> we're only ten minutes over. coming up next we'll go to chief white house correspondent chuck todd and also "the washington post" eugene robinson joins the conversation. more tom friedman. very exciting conversation, discussion, and, mika, i'm with

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brady to the half-yard line. why not? welker pulling away! and he ties an nfl record with a 99-yard touchdown! how many guys throw it out of their end zone to an empty back field? >> as don meredith said when tony dorsett did it, 99 yards 1/2! >> and that was. >> seriously, alex, that is not even funny. let's go to chuck todd, miami dolphin and miami hurricane fan. chuck, had absolutely nothing to do with that. that's disgusting. >> it's okay. i've always been less of a dolphin fan anyway. >> okay. >> it was more, hey, the best thing about that game, it was a nice little pregame before the debate. they go to some advertising breaks. you get to flip over. >> yeah. >> to the debate. my previous, my button on my

directv remote was kept busy. >> speaking of the debate last night, what was your takeaway? >> well, it's clear everybody's identified rick perry. it was a get rick perry night as much as the first debate for many thought it was about rick perry being put in the spotlight. this took it to another level. you just didn't have romney trying to take him down a notch on social security but michele bachmann got aggressive with him. ron paul continues to take shots at him. rick santorum. it seems as if everybody realizes it's rick perry in their way, whether it's michele bachmann with the tea party conservatives or mitt romney simply with the guy that's ahead of him in the poll and actually standing in the way of the nomination. so you saw rick perry on the defensive and, frankly, he seemed rattled at points. >> he really did. >> on this issue of vaccinating, mandatory vaccinations in the

state of texas for girls 12 and over, for infections that could cause cervical cancer, bachmann accused him of this crony capitalism saying that somehow campaign donations had something to do with it. then santorum came in and jumped on him on the moral end of things. and there was a moment in the debate, it was hard to show for television but you could just feel there was a silence for a second and perry just, well look. i just erred on the side -- he just seemed -- and then immigration came up. he was never the same. it did damage to him last night. >> it's really hard to characterize how rick perry came off during this debate. i can't figure it out. i can't put my finger on it. it's like -- >> i think sometimes we need to talk to other republican consultants. >> maybe i should back out. >> let's see what mike murphy's take was last night. >> oh, okay. >> he said, listening to rick perry try to put together a complicated policy sentence is like watching a chimp play with a locked suitcase. a bit harsh, perhaps.

i disagree. >> well -- >> but chuck todd, he certainly, let's just say this, he certainly was not light on his feet on stage last night. >> there was not -- there was no nimbleness. that's for sure. and romney in contrast -- every chance he got to sort of look like the guy who -- to look like the former bain capital executive and talk about a 59-point plan when it comes to economy, eight-point plan with immigration, da-da -- almost as if their campaign decided -- when rick perry wasn't in the race he didn't do that a lot. now the contrast is great because of what you just put up by mike murphy and others. >> the big question though do people vote issues or persona? when i look at rick perry's persona, i see what is a traditional, very appealing thing for republicans. pugnaciousness. >> is that your view of republicans? >> george w. had it. if you go back early on reagan

had it. i think there's something in his tone. >> no, no. reagan never had that tone. >> i think that, listen, let's stay with george w. i think there is something in his fighting nature that is very appealing to a lot of the angry republicans. forget what he says. it's what comes out. and i think that's what people vote on, the person not the issues. >> let's bring it right now. i don't think that's going to be the case in the long run. i don't think that is going to carry over. let's bring in from washington also pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc analyst eugene robinson. gene, last night i said that mitt romney reminds me of a solid 0.290 hit. he's going to get up there, hit 0.290, maybe 20, 22, 23 home runs. 80, 90, maybe a hundred rbis. and usually that won't be enough to win the batting title. but this year it just may be.

this guy, i've been critical of him. but this guy is going the opposite direction of what he did four years ago when he tried to be what he wasn't. last night he went in and he talked to tea partiers and, frankly, my dear, he didn't give a damn. he stayed on message. he could have been talking to the columbia law school faculty. you get the sense he would have said the same thing. >> yeah. he is such a better candidate this time around than he was four years ago. no question that romney is polished. he went into the lion's den last night and came out. rick perry, there was an interesting moment to me that -- the moment was when they got on immigration and perry enunciated a position that i actually support. i think his support of the kind of texas version of the dream act is absolutely right. but the people that -- >> by the way, rick perry's people are very excited to hear you say that.

>> i know. they love that. and the people inside that hall did not think that was right. and in a sense, that's his obamni care. he said the dream act was right for texas but not for the country. >> just like romney care was right for massachusetts but not right for the country. >> exactly. and he just didn't, you know, he defended his position but he didn't defend it very -- he wasn't very light on his feet. >> all right. chuck todd, on mitt romney, everyone is saying he is such a better candidate, is he a better candidate or is he mitt romney in an extremely weak field? and he's just doing what any smart person would do, wait them out as they all implode? >> let's remember, mitt romney has yet to take to be the center on any of these debates he either was off to the side or since these last two debates it's been all about rick perry so mitt romney has benefit fred the fact that he's not been

under the microscope. he hasn't been the guy taking all the arrows. and when he was, remember, four years ago it was mitt romney who was taking all the arrows at all these debates. john mccain got to stand at the side not really engaging until the end, closer to the end of the primary campaign. and everybody was piling on mitt. in this case this time he is benefiting from the pile on perry. what was amazing last night was for instance health care came up. the mandate came up. none of the other candidates decided to take a shot at him including rick perry, which tells you a couple things. one, rick perry is the front runner. okay? this is all about rick perry right now. he's up double digits. so this is not a false lead that he has number one. >> interesting. >> number two, we still haven't seen romney take a punch to use a boxing term. >> so tom friedman, we're reading your book. and you talk at one point late in the book about the problems

in washington and you say this, if i could. the only way around all these ideological and structural obstacles is a third party or independent candidate who cannot only articulate a hybrid politics that addresses our major challenges and restores our formula for success but, and it's a huge but, does this in a way that enough americans find so compelling that they're willing to leave their respective democratic or republican camps and join hands in the radical center. only that could change a political system that rewards our politicians for postponing hard decisions and blaming the other party rather than making those decisions. interesting. >> well, mika, what we're basically arguing is we need a hybrid politics right now which does not corned to trespond to agendas of either party. we need to cut spending, raise revenue, and invest in our formula for success. we don't have a candidate in this book. it is a nonpartisan book. we have an agenda. if president obama pursues that or mitt romney or rick perry god

bless them. but if they don't, we need to administer a shock to this political system. i'm really a believer that life is about incentives. okay? and these politicians are responding to a certain set of incentives they see out there. move the cheese, move the mouse. don't move the cheese, the mouse doesn't move. and if we had a third party right now, let's imagine we had a third party led by joe scarborough. >> oh, my gosh. >> that's an asterisk by the way in any poll. go ahead. >> but joe scarborough and mayor bloomberg of new york city running together. okay? in td center. and their position was simpson bowles on the economy plus an investment agenda plus drawing down in afghanistan as quickly as possible. i will bet any amount of money that tomorrow, okay, they have a significant, significant position out there. and only when they have that position will the other two

parties stop appealing to the base and start saying, whoa. let's remember. ross perot had 40% of the vote at one point for deficit reduction. i love the guy but he was nuts. okay? he thought little black helicopters were chasing him at the end. imagine if you had a bloomberg and scarborough running on this position now. >> i tell you, this tom friedman guy, i kind of like him. he's got it going on. a smart guy. >> eugene robinson, final thoughts. >> i'm voting for tom friedman i think. >> there you go. >> and, joe, are you announcing a candidacy now? >> you know what? i'm just sitting here hawking coffee for education. that's all i'm doing. >> there you go. >> let's go back to the debate quickly because we have chuck. i want chuck's final thoughts as well as yours. chuck, obviously it was a romney versus perry battle last night but michele bachmann seemed to

come back a little bit, focusing again on rick perry. >> we did. and she did it using social issues. we've been wondering when would some of the social conservative issues pop up and with perry in particular, both -- he was hit from the right. you know, that was the other part of it. last night the crowd played an interesting role in this. they were very raucous in many cases, newt gingrich was very effective for instance playing to the crowd. got a lot of good applause lines. jon huntsman tried. they fell incredibly flat. >> yes. >> jokingly so. the curt cobain reference. >> good lord. >> i don't know if anybody even had that on their ipod in there. god love him. but bachmann and santorum hitting perry from the right on social issues both on immigration and on this hpv vaccination, i think it's something you'll see more of in iowa and, boy, what a benefit to mitt romney right now. >> gene robinson, the crowd last night at one point cheering the possibility of the death of a young man in a coma.

>> it's sick. >> i guess in 2008 we had "drill, baby, drill." last night it seemed to be, "die, baby, die." i think cnn may have magnified a political segment of this society beyond their representation of the general population. >> that's probably true. there was an air of unreality to the debate last night. it was as if we were in some sort of parallel universe. now we're back in the real world. unfortunately, the real world has these really difficult problems that we need to tackle with logic and science not with fantasy. >> all right. eugene, thank you. chuck todd, thank you as well. we'll see you at 9:00 a.m. on the daily rundown. >> when we come back we'll be talking more to tom friedman. this may be the smartest guy in america. what else do we have? >> also coming up, adviser to president obama's re-election campaign david axelrod will be here. keep it right here on "morning joe." , in 10 minutes, we're goig to head back down the hill.

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throw welcome back to "morning joe" 342 past the hour.

al qaeda releasing a message marking the tenth anniversary of the september 11 attacks. the video features previously unreleased footage of osama bin laden four months after his death. it includes an audio of a speech by bin laden's successor who discusses the arab spring and the killing of bin laden. joining us now we have former supervisory special agent for the fbi ali soufan the author of a new book "the black banners" and thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> great to be here. >> first of all, give us a sense of what the book is about and the war against al qaeda which many argue at this point has been won to an extent. >> yes. the book is about the history of that war and the history of the organization of al qaeda. from the very beginning in 1917 on until the death of bin laden. it talks about the ideology of

the organization, the ideology that sustained the organization and makes it basically adapt to different changes. also, it talks about the structure, it talks about the leadership. and it talks about the operation. it talks about their successes and their failures. at the same time it talks about our successes and our failures in dealing with that prior to 9/11 and after 9/11. >> i want to hear what those successes and failures are, but first let's tell our viewers the lens by which through you write this book. you are a former fbi special agent. you served on the front lines against al qaeda and have a reputation to be a top counterterrorism operative and interrogator. and from that lens what are the successes and failures so far? >> well, in the book i put many stories about the successes. our successes and our failures and al qaeda's success and failures. our successes always came when we understood the enemy very well and we worked together. the fbi, cia, dod. when we were all together on the

front line all coordinating with each other we always had successes. you see in the book in many chapters that the heroes are not fbi agents or military, sometimes a lot of the times the heroes are also cia officers. so it seems, yes -- >> what happened? >> it doesn't take away from the story. >> explain to the viewers. >> that is so interesting. >> some words have been redacted here. >> right. >> like my report cards. >> but you did that. okay. go on. >> we can talk about these kinds of things later. so basically, this is the successes. i also talk about the interrogations. the important interrogations in the war on terrorism, interrogations we can talk about now because either they have been declassified or i already testified in court on them. the interrogation for example of bin laden's personal secretary and propagandaist. there is a guy who we had no idea who he was and in a way we bluffed him into thinking that

we knew who he was. and he admitted that, you know, he was bin laden's personal secretary. you can imagine the wealth of information and knowledge we got from him. >> and it's fascinating. and the different ways that the fbi, cia got the information. the way we got information on the whereabouts of osama bin laden wasn't by what somebody admitted but what they didn't admit. >> exactly. there is no magic bullet here. there is no cookie cutter approach. >> right. >> the best thing to do is to basically work together, put all these pieces of the puzzle together, see where they fit, and we have great people in the country and we trust the practitioners in the field. we trust the people on the front line. and again and again in the book i show how we were reporting something to washington and washington would not basically do what we were reporting. >> right. >> that did not -- >> so we have made mistakes over the past decade. >> absolutely. >> but we -- >> we had a lot of successes,

too. >> we haven't been attacked domestically. >> absolutely. >> al qaeda has been absolutely ravaged over the past decade. give us the report card ten years after 9/11, where are we now as far as intel goes? how would you score us over the past decade? and al qaeda? how bad is al qaeda right now? >> i think they are definitely on the way of being defeated. there are many reasons for that. first of all, i think we have to take the credit. our military, our intelligence agencies, law enforcement agencies, we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on combatting terrorism. and that, you know, helped a lot in defeating the organization or helped defeat the organization. however, al qaeda attacked us on 9/11 and that is not the same organization that exists today. they don't have territorial sanctuary. they don't have the central command they had before. they don't have the training camps. they are on the run. however, it's a totally different organization. now you have al qaeda in the

arabian peninsula, in iraq, and each one has its own leadership but each one also has its own local concerns so they are focused on the local environment and how they can propaganda and recruitment and relevancy. so now we see them trying to make al qaeda more relevant because people now realize you know what? we can change who we are. it makes al qaeda more irrelevant. we can change our culture, politics, destiny, without attacking embassies. >> i want to ask you about a remarkable story you tell in the book about a report you received on your desk on september 12th, 2001, that led you, you say, to run across the hall into the bathroom and throw up. what was in that report? >> that was information that we had been asking -- that was in yemen -- i was heading a team investigating the u.s.s. cole

and a month earlier we stumbled into some kind of meeting that took place in southeast asia and we had been asking for a long time, for many months, if there is any information about that. on september 12th we found out that two people who attended that meeting were actually on flight 97. and, unfortunately, that was, you know, a very hard day for all of us in america. but, also, at the same time i think the 9/11 commission report, the cia report came to the same conclusion that i mentioned in the book on that, the events that led to that tragic day in september. >> how do we turn the page past the last decade where we are focused as you said on the losers in globalization and start focusing more on our economic competitors? given all the information that we're receiving? >> well, i say two things, joe. one is that we need a gasoline tax. we're going to need revenue

here. what would you rather have, see your medicare cut, social security cut, or would you rather see a gasoline tax phased in at five cents a gallon over 20 months that begins to spur energy innovation here in the way -- only way that it will be spurred with consumer demand and makes us less vulnerable on a middle east that is clearly going to be in turmoil for a long time? that's one thing. the second thing is we do need to bring the transition there to a decent outcome. i heard ali speak yesterday in an interview and i think he understands something very profound, which of this terrorie deep sense of humiliation, particularly among young arab males. they live now in a world where they really know it's a flat world. they can see what's going on. and they can see just how far behind they are. and we need to create some decent, positive examples in that part of the world. we can't do it our own in collaboration with them.

iraq is far from there yet, but if we can get a few places with an upward slope on them in that part of the world i think it would be hugely important. >> tom friedman, thank you very much. ali soufan as well. your book "the black banners the inside story of 9/11 and the war against al qaeda." thanks again. >> thank you very much. >> we'll be back with more "morning joe" ♪

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the history books we need to re-read, willie, are our own. the country needs to rediscover is america. that used to be us. it can be again. >> i love that line. we have nothing to learn from china. >> that's a good one. >> we need to learn from ourselves. again, it's -- he's exactly right. >> i like your slogan the one you came up with the airport. >> stuff doesn't work. >> washington that works. tom friedman, thank you so much. >> thank you so much, tom. the book "that used to be us." on every purchase, so me and my lads earned a trip to san francisco twice as fast! we get double miles every time we use our card... i'll take these two... ...no matter what we're buying. ...and all of those. and since double miles add up fast, we can bring the whole gang! it's hard to beat double miles! whoa dude. [ male announcer ] get the venture card from capital one and earn double miles on every purchase, every day. go to capitalone.com. what's in your wallet?

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tomorrow morning on "morning joe," the republican governor of the state of florida, rick scott, and former star of "law and order," jesse martin. >> okay. now. >> coming up next, economist jeffery sacks and steve rattner return for the conversation. >> and the quote about -- [ woma. you've been stuck in the garage while i took refuge from the pollen that made me sneeze. but with 24-hour zyrtec®, i get prescription strength relief from my worst allergy symptoms. so lily and i are back on the road again. with zyrtec® i can love the air®.

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♪ do you still believe that social security should be ended

as a federal program as you did six months ago when your book came out and return to the states or do you want to retreat from that? >> i think we ought to have a conversation -- >> we're having that right now. we're running for president. >> i'll finish this conversation. the issue is, are there ways to move the states into social security for state employees or for retirees. we did in the state of texas back in the 1980s. i think those types of thoughtful conversations with america, rather than trying to scare seniors like you're doing and other people -- >> [ applause ] >> it's time to have a legitimate conversation in this country about how to fix that program. >> governor, the term ponzi scheme is what scared seniors number one. and in two, suggesting that social security should no longer be a federal program and return to the states unconstitutional is likewise frightening. there are a lot of bright people who agree with you, and that's your view. i happen to have a different one. i think social security is an essential program that we should

change the way we're funding it -- >> you called it a criminal -- if people did it in the private sector it would be called criminal. that's in your book. >> yeah. what i said was -- [ applause ] governor perry your got to quote me correctly. you said it's criminal. what i said is congress taking money out of the social security trust fund is like criminal and that is and it's wrong. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast, as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set, jeffery sacks and steve rattner. well, they picked apart the word ponzi scheme to the point where he had to go there. >> they did. >> mr. perry. >> i don't know that ponzi scheme is his biggest problem. you can always say something is a ponzi scheme and then go back and say let's fix it. >> he didn't take it to the next level from the get-go and now he had to backtrack and try to take it to the next level and i think it was pitiful.

>> i don't know how many -- watching him last night, i don't know how many -- >> stop. >> no, this is very legitimate. >> okay. >> be careful. >> after listening to them talk last night in detail, i do not know how many levels there are to rick perry, but i know this. let me finish my thought, please. >> please. >> the phrase ponzi scheme is not rick perry's biggest problem. the word that he's going to have to wrestle with during republican primaries let alone a general election, is the word unconstitutional. because when you call social security the life blood for tens of millions of senior citizens not only now, but through the ages over the past 80 years, when you call that unconstitutional, when you talk as he did last night about -- i got to admit this is about as funny as anything i heard on

"curb your enthusiasm". >> an incredible kickoff. >> larry david hit .400 this year with that. but to say he's going to take social security back to the states, the states that are bankrupt, the states that can't handle medicaid, the states that are not set up -- >> well -- >> to handle social security defies all logic. that said, willie, it was like a wrestling match and he had the crowd on his side. it was a hometown crowd for rick perry. a lot of them just weren't bothered with facts in the least. >> he got a clear for almost everything he said, particularly when he turned his sights to mitt romney or zinged him back, whether or not it was factual or not -- >> what romney's best zing was, uh-huh. i mean seriously. he said you called it criminal. no, he didn't. >> he didn't. mitt romney did correct the record. there were cheers for other strange things like michele bachmann again proudly declaring

she was the only one who said we should not raise the debt ceiling. that drew big applause. ron paul saying churches take care of the sick rather than medicaid. >> oh, my god. >> and cheers again when they called ben bernanke treasonist which was incredible. on the perry thing, i think the ponzi scheme can be explained. it is a ponzi scheme in a certain way in that there's nothing in the trust fund but he did not back off a bit on what was in his book about turning social security back to the states. it was incredible. >> it's pro post truss. it can't happen. i think mike murphy, who is a republican stat gist, i thought mike put it best last night. >> really? he was talking. >> he was tweeting. >> tweeting. >> and this is what he said. listening to perry try to put a complicated policy sentence together is like watching a chimp play with a locked suitcase. now, i am not associating myself with those comments. that said, he is, willie geist,

a republican strategist. >> respected strategist. >> some things you just can't say but watching rick perry last night try to talk policy, past a quick sound bite, i shot a coyote in the face, beyond that it gets pretty depressing. and i'm sorry, i know republican primary voters, as you get past the first couple of states, and i've seen them time and time again, chew up and spit out guys like this who are the flavor of the month. i just don't see rick perry surviving past march. >> and yet, i think mika will show us in a minute new polls from cnn that happened not only leading the field, but saying he is the best shot of beating barack obama. that's among registered republicans. >> seriously? >> there's the disconnect. >> this is -- cnn has -- we had all the polling but they have a special unit and this is the giuliani unit. the people that polled at the same time four years ago that

told us rudy giuliani and hillary clinton -- >> a lot of people feeling disenfranchised, i would be very careful at what you say right now. the two i guess -- >> can i talk to the economists about what -- >> i actually wanted to talk to him. >> to the economist. i wanted to ask about the feasibility of sending social security back to the states. but you go ahead. >> go ahead, dr. sacks. >> i think there is a little bit of misstatement and overstatement in all of this. social security is not a ponzi scheme and it's not bankrupt and it is not going to be sent back to the states. if you look over a 75-year period, which is what the trustees of social security do and they do that every year in an annual report, they say that there is some modest fixing that will be required, but it's not fully funded over 75 years, it's not broke, it's not running out of money. older people should not be scared the way that these

debates and governor perry and others are terrifying people right now. >> how fascinating, though, that he chooses social security instead of medicare, which really is in trouble. >> this is -- >> how fascinating. >> we're going to get medicare -- >> so much hot button and ideology and fact-free and -- >> pannedering to voters. >> completely scary to people who are watching and listening and it's completely unjustified. >> he did go out of his way yesterday, for the first time in a debate anyway, to start his answer about that by saying, listen, if you're getting social security now or you're going to get it in the next ten years, you're fine, we're not going to touch it. i'm talking to mid-career young people. >> people 50 and younger will not have social security. >> he tried to walk -- >> they are going to have it. >> of course they are. >> even if we stuck with the current system there would be some modest decline of benefits, that's what the trustees report shows but with a modest change, either gradual in raising the age limits or raising the payroll taxes over a 75-year

period you can close these gaps also. >> here's the thing, mika, rick perry is trying to fight an ideological battle that republicans lost in 1938. i'm dead serious. they lost it in 1938. i mean, dwight eisenhower, when he became president in 1953, basically stamped american approval of both sides. social security and other fdr programs. >> i think the way dr. sachs put it it's a conversation that americans can have about social security that is realistic, but rick perry chose the wrong words and battle and he's getting nailed on it. it may not feel that way when you listen to the audience. mitt romney and rick perry sparred over their record for job creation. this is pretty good too. when asked if governor perry deserves credit for creating more jobs in texas than any other state, romney implied that

perry had an advantage. >> i think governor perry would agree with me, if you're dealt four aces that doesn't make you necessarily a great poker player. and four aces -- and the four aces that are terrific aces, the nation should learn from, the ones i described, zero income tax, low regulation, right to work state, oil in the ground and the republican legislature. those things are terrific. by the way, there has been great job growth in texas under ann richards, job growth was 2.5% a year, under george bush, was 3% a year, and under rick perry 1% a year. those are all good numbers. >> i was going to say, mitt, you were doing pretty good until you got to talking poker. >> seriously. >> wow. >> i'm sorry. >> last night's debate comes as a new cnn/opinion research poll shows 42% of republican voters think governor perry has the best chance in the general election against president obama. 26% say mitt romney has the best

chance. and just 5% say michele bachmann. >> similar poll the same republicans questioned on who has the best chance of winning the world series, their answer, the baltimore orioles. let's take a look right now at mark halperin's score card. >> i want to see. >> yeah. let's see here. mitt romney, a b-plus. perry, a b-minus. bachmann, a c-plus, huntsman a c-minus, gingrich c-minus. all the way down there. i must say, most observers would have given huntsman, let's keep that up, a failing grade. conservatives and liberals alike, skewered his performance. bachmann a bit stronger than she was in the last debate. she disappeared but last night she seemed to fight back. >> she was back a bit. i think the story of this debate, these day debates, romney has done pretty well. he's been steady, on his game,

he actually last night was not playing to the tea party crowd in the audience. he was playing to the more moderate voters out in america. i thought he did a pretty good job of that. >> again, moderate. the word moderate has been -- >> relative term. >> it is a relative term. he was actually talking to main street conservatives. he was talking to the people that elected ronald reagan in 1980 and 1984 and george h.w. bush in '88. he was talking to main street conservatives. i think that strategy pays off in the end. >> i agree. compared to some of the rest of them playing to that audience and saying some of the most incredible things, i think romney is positioning himself pretty well. as you said, there are polls that show giuliani ahead four years ago. i don't put much stock in these polls. i think romney is well positioned. >> i think he is too. i think he's playing it perfectly. we've got news. i want to go quickly to a story that's fascinating me right now because we have jeffrey sachs

here. when the doctor is in, i mean, come on, willie. >> got a new book coming out, by the way. >> i can't wait. >> really? >> when is it coming out? >> had it in hand yesterday. october 4th. >> okay. we'll be debuting that. >> i can tell you what my family's going to be doing halloween. >> i tell you. >> definitely your children. >> we're going to sit around. let's talk about the lead in "the new york times." a seismic shift in not only european politics, but european economics. germany is carrying -- we've said it some time, they are carrying europe on their shoulders right now and "the new york times" reporting this morning german leader faces key choices on rescuing euro. we americans like to complain and i think justifiably so at times of carrying the world on our shoulders over the past 50 years, but there is no doubt that the germans have a reason to be a little bitter right now about carrying europe on their

back. >> i think they better be careful because if the bitterness takes the top billing right now, they're going to blow apart their own economy as well. >> but they are, obviously, carrying some reckless country's loads. >> well, of course what happened is, that countries like greece, spain, portugal, the southern tier of europe, got into the same kind of trouble that we did with the housing boom, a bubble, and that broke. they have high unemployment right now. they can't pay their debts on time without some rescheduling of those debts. the germans are being pretty tough on those countries. but if they're too tough and push them over the ledge, actually, the euro that second main currency in the world, would be pulled apart. there would be a financial collapse. believe me, that would hit here, that would hit around the world. and i really do think they're playing with fire. they've been pushed to the limit. merkel faces internal opposition in germany. the germans are saying why

should we pay for greece. but the fact of the matter is, if you bush too hard and just -- push too hard and say we're not going do anything and you blow your currency apart, germany will go down, europe will suffer. >> how is any -- i understand that. steve rattner, how does any politician go to his or her constituents and say, i understand, we did things right, we were -- we weren't as reckless as these other countries, but we're going to have to keep paying to bail them out? i'm not saying they shouldn't do it. i'm saying the politics of this for merkel have to be terrible. >> look two things on this. first of all, this is a lot like what went on in the u.s. in 2008 in a sense with t.a.r.p. it was very unpopular. president bush did the right thing against all sort of polls. obama followed through on it. and it worked. so she's got similar situation. the second thing is, that the politics inside germany are, indeed, toxic. public opinion is completely

opposed to helping these people who don't work hard enough and all the rest of the stuff. one thing, the euro has been the best thing that's happened to germany in a long time because the euro has allowed germany to become the world's second largest exporter and with the euro at 1.35, germany is knocking the cover off the ball in exports. if you talk to the german business community they want the euro and their attitude is do whatever it takes to save the euro. this is great for germany. we can sell stuff. >> here at home, barack obama trying to figure out how to sell his jobs package. >> he's going to john boehner's home state and trying to sell the jobs package. this is in the hands of congress now. coming up next adviser to president obama's re-election campaign, david axelrod joins us on set to weigh in on the president's jobs bill and to handicap the 2012 republican presidential field. >> he's going to -- >> you think he's donated? >> i think so. >> for obama, you check the box

for -- >> that's our coffee. >> first, let's go to bill karins with a check of the forecast. bill? >> good morning, mika. always causing trouble. texas has been the place of drought and extreme heat all summer long and today, this is just the icing on the cake. yesterday, we were 103. this area from oklahoma here all the way back down through south texas, was easily into the hundreds. i'll highlight in that area. as i look at the forecast for today, it's the same old story. 106 today in dallas. that's where the extreme heat is. notice further to the north this is where the cooler air has moved in. sooner or later that's going to move to the south. looks like dallas, you're going to have to wait until thursday to officially end your summer heat. unbelievable streak. we're going to end up with 71 100-degree days in dallas. never happened before. notice what happens on wednesday, thunderstorms make their way to the mid-atlantic and northeast and then the cool down will arrive for us. highs on thursday and friday from d.c. to new york only in the 60s. be ready as fall is finally arriving across the country.

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he had $800 billion worth of stimulus in the first round of stimulus. it created zero jobs. 400 plus billion dollars in this package, and i can do the math on that one, half of zero jobs is going to be zero jobs. this president does not

understand how to free up the small business men and women or for that matter wall street. >> i think -- >> there you go. >> very kind. david is a giving guy. >> and he's given a lot of money right now. >> well. >> funneling it. >> making sure it goes in the right place. >> exactly. >> perry for president is exactly where you want to put it. >> i don't think any texas republican needs help raising money. >> all right. that's true. joining us -- he is a very good fund-raiser, though. >> a guy raises a billion dollars and runs for president. >> strategist for president obama's re-election campaign david axelrod joins us on the set and good to see you. >> nice to see you. >> david, you said we shouldn't underestimate rick perry, tell us why. >> look, i think that there is a quality to him that, obviously, people respond to. there's an authenticity to him on that stage that you see. i don't agree with much of what he has to say, obviously,

although i did agree with him, i iheard gene robinson earlier, i agreed with him on the immigration issue. >> agree with romney on health care? >> yes. i find something to agree with -- >> funny how you -- >> you are a uniter, not a divider. >> that's what i'm trying to do here. >> do you think that mitt romney is not authentic? is that -- is that your possible knock against -- >> i don't want to -- >> does he appear to voters, primary voters? >> i would defer to the image makers here. >> it's interesting. >> smart. >> david, i agree. you mocked me earlier in the program when i said do not underestimate rick perry. he makes me throw up in my mouth but -- >> that's not a nice thing -- >> really, donnie. >> he has that quality, you use the word swagger, i used i think arrogant pugnaciousness. people turn off from what he is saying, there is a carriharisma appeal to this guy that i

actually think he is not going to go away, not going to be the flavor of the month and i think that's the -- >> let's hear what mike murphy has to say -- >> he's a republican strategist. >> i don't care. i'm the image king. >> what david axelrod takes away -- >> mike is a great friend of mine. >> listening to perry try to put a complicated policy sentence together is like watching a chimp playing with a suitcase. >> that's locked. >> what say you, david axelrod? >> mike is a great friend of mine. i think he -- and he did use -- he once worked for mitt romney, so he obviously may be partial in that way. the republican party will sort out their own situation. i think if you are an uninitiated voter, watching that debate last night, you would skinds of scratch your head and say how can we spend ten minutes talking about whether we should have created social security and not one minute about educationp. >> right. >> how could we spend all this

time talking about the inoculation program in texas and not talk about how we get research and development in innovation going in this country. >> right. >> so we can create advanced manufacturing jobs that pay a good middle-class wage. there was nothing there. the only thing they seem to agree on is we ought to roll back wall street reforms and give wall street the right to write its own rules again. i don't think anybody believe that's the answer. >> let's talk about special election going on in new york, anthony weiner's old seat. politico reporting, the president's approval rating among independents in the teens. what's happened with the president over the past six months to a year with independents. you've seen the numbers collapse since august of '09, but precipitously of late, what exactly has happened? because republicans seem to be the ones getting the most dinged for the debt ceiling bill, but there's scar tissue on both sides, right? >> i don't think anybody

benefitted from that episode, and, you know, we suffered, they suffered more i think, but i think it's important, you know, at some point, joe, these things become less about gauging the president referendum on the president and more about a choice between two candidates. one thing that's very clear to me -- >> is that the case in new york you think? >> i think there are special circumstances here. i don't really want to get deeply into the new york race because people are voting right now. tomorrow would be a good day to -- >> we'll have you back. david axelrod on "morning joe." >> encore. >> i don't want to do postmortems before the race is over. but i do think that as i was speaking about the debate, i think people are going to start focusing on who is really -- who has a vision, about how we build a stronger economy in the future and who has beliefs in the values people should get a fair shake, everybody should get a fair shot and everybody should do their fair share. that's where the president is

going. i heard tom friedman before, friend of mine and brilliant guy, the thing that bewilders me a little bit is, everything he's talking about is what the president has been talking about. everything. about getting our fiscal house in order, but doing it in such a way we invest in education and training and research and development and a 21st century infrastructure. that's precisely where the president wants to go. but he also wants to make sure there's a level playing field so people get a fair shake. that's why when these guys say last night that the answer to our economic problems is to roll back wall street reforms, i don't think people are buying that. i don't think people are buying that. curious. >> it sounds like the white house is not going in the approach of a young guy is in a coma, let him die. >> definitely not. >> make a church vesttry and let him day. >> how do you make the president's message penetrate and call out the republicans in a way where you put it on them so something actually happens? because right now looking ahead

to 2012, which is something you have to worry about and is important if you care about this country and still on team obama. >> yes. >> you must have read "the new york times" this weekend that said democrats are quietly beginning to worry and pulling away. i'll add to that the black unemployment numbers, the first african-american president to have really high black unemployment numbers. that's not helpful. how do you work toward getting his message through and winning re-election? >> first of all, i think that his message, he spoke to 31 million americans on thursday night. that message resonated. he's carrying that message all over the country. i believe he's in ohio today. we're going to continue right through. and i think persistence is the key here. persistence in terms of attacking our problems and persistence in explaining where we're going, the values, the vision, and making people understand where they fit in that equation. i believe, you know, when you listen to the republican party, they simply want to recycle this very same ideas that got us into this mess in the first place.

people are not going to buy that. as to black unemployment, obviously when there's an economic downturn, communities that are already struggling take the biggest hit and that's a great concern. that's why the president has stressed things like pell grants. that's why he's gone into distressed school districts and wants to rebuild the delipidated schools around the country and get teachers back to work. there are things we can do. youth unemployment is part of the program. summer jobs for youth very important in the african-american community. so there are things we can do. the best thing we can do are the long-term things that give people a chance to work hard, to get ahead, to get the skills they need. >> but along -- >> to fill the jobs that pay. >> along those lines if we were going to give the president a mulligan and rewind the clock and if we understand the economy and jobs is everything, was it a

stra tege tegic blunder to put the first 18 months on health care. we need reform in this country. it's hard to look back and say if we had a do-over maybe we would have started with jobs? >> let me say two things about that. one is, the people who are most interested in his doing health care within the white house were the budget people because the cost of health care was growing at such an expo nen shall rate if we didn't reform the health care system and get that under control we couldn't get our budget under control in the long term. the second thing i have a child with a chronic illness, a preexisting condition, we almost went bankrupt when i was a young reporter and we were dealing with her medical care. there are millions of people across this country who have gone through that or are going through that now. i don't think they could wait a generation for us to deal with this issue. so i think the president did the right thing. both in terms of the economy and in terms of the character of our country.

>> david, you know the numbers very well. unemployment 9%. wrong track number 73% according to one poll. no jobs created in august. republicans are out on the campaign trail asking the question, are you better off today than you were three years ago. for most americans, the answer is no. how do you refute that? >> willie, the question is what are you proposing instead? everybody understands these problems were a long time in the making. they're difficult. they're hard. they're -- it's going to take persistence and time to deal with them. but the question is, what are they proposing in the alternative? and what they seem to be proposing, if you listened to the debate last night, is the very same policy that was instituted ten years ago, that helped get us in the mess in the first place. >> elections are decided -- it's usually a referendum on the guy in power. we're going to either re-hire you or not. it's interesting -- >> joe, that's not exactly right. that's not exactly right. if that were the case, i think that john kerry would have

beaten george bush in 2004. >> you know more times than not that is the case though. >> i think this is not the customary time. people understand that the root of the problem goes back beyond barack obama. >> right. >> and i think it's unsatisfying to them when they hear a bunch of candidates trying every ill on him and when they go back to the same economics notrumes, regulate wall street, give tax breaks to the wealthy. >> they're going beyond what republicans used to do. there are some far more extreme than where main stream -- >> not like the scarborough days. >> yeah, baby. let me ask you a question, this is something that tom friedman comes on and he says a lot of the same things that president obama has been saying. >> right. >> but when tom friedman says it, we all go like this. wow. you know why, it's tom friedman, he's pretty smart. the president is not resonating. you're the communications guy. but at the end of the day --

>> joe, you know what -- >> sometimes, david, sometimes, you looked at the numbers, this is not me saying, the numbers saying, sometimes for some reason, americans turn off presidents. >> well -- >> how do you get people to go like this when he says the same thing that friedman is saying. >> i say the same things. first of all, you talked about the grand bargain before. when the president before the end of the debt ceiling debate when he was pushing for that grand bargain, one that would be fair, that would be balanced, one in which everybody did their fair share and in which we left room to invest in those things we needed for the future. >> right. >> people did respond to that. we had a 25-point lead on the republicans in terms of our approach to this and their approach to this. secondly, i think people did watch and -- on -- >> thursday night. >> and no doubt it did resonate with them. the third thing is, i have enormous respect for tom friedman, who is a brilliant guy who has given a lot of thought to these issues but there is a

difference in writing books and writing columns and having to enact these things in real life. there are political obstacles, including an implaqueble opposition you have to deal with and move this thing along. so, you know, you need persistently sell this. >> made a mistake by not defining his positions more? by staring down the republicans saying you know what, if you guys -- if you guys want the government to shut down or you guys want us to have a credit default, you know, a credit default, well, it's going to be on you. there have been opportunities -- >> you know -- >> the bush tax cuts being extended in december. >> no. >> there have been times where the president hasn't stood toe to toe with the republicans and his base has gotten angry. >> bush tax cuts in december are not really a good example because that was actually a fair bargain. we got the tax cuts for the

middle class, we got unemployment insurance extended, we got refundable tax cuts for low income workers relative to mika's point. we got other things. >> right. >> don't ask, don't tell. >> not without giving tax cuts to millionaires and billionaires. >> that's all the republican party wanted. >> you don't have to give it to them. >> then we wouldn't have had a deal and the republicans would have blocked everything else. the question is, what do you value the most and there are things that we got by making that deal. >> you mentioned implaqueble opposition. given what you've seen in all the other fights you're describing, including the debt ceiling fight why do you think it will be different on the jobs bill? why would you get them to work now. >> i think the public has had it. that's why you see the republicans taking a different tone right now. they understand that they took a tremendous hit by walking this country to the brink of default and the american people have had it. those independent voters who voted for the republicans in

2010 did not vote for that. they voted for more cooperation, not less. >> the president's numbers have dropped with independents. again, is it a curse on both houses. >> willie was asking me why do i think that the republicans will move. i think that they -- they have a survival issue themselves. the american people do not want that kind of bringsmanship. we have real problems in this country. they want to see republicans cooperate with this president to try to solve these problems. we're going to keep the heat up. what did harry truman say, if you can't make them see the light, make them feel the heat. that's what we're going to do. >> in his jobs speech, is this as far as the president will go? is this his limit? >> in terms of what? >> in calling out the republicans. is he at his wit's end? is this all we're going to get? >> mika wants a fight. she wants the president -- >> slap them around. >> president to take boehner out golfing and kind of boom like a

good -- >> what i'm saying a lot of people -- i think the president has prevailed at times during the campaign and during his presidency when everybody wanted him to fight, and he held and took the high ground and didn't, and it actually ultimately was the right thing. at the same time, right now -- >> no. listen, i know there are some times -- times that need -- >> that they want him to say it's on you. >> i think it was very clear, i think he's been very clear in these -- in that speech and since, people understand what's going on. the -- one of the interesting things that was written about that speech, i forget who wrote it, a great line, that said the president appeared like a man who wasn't looking for a fight but wasn't afraid to have one. >> right. >> and i think that's exactly right. >> who's better than david axelrod? >> nobody. >> i was going to say. you're looking good. tan, rested. >> you need new glasses, brother. >> susan okay? >> she's doing great. >> tell her i said hi. >> how is the organization doing? >> great. we're doing well.

>> raising money for a cure. >> if you get on board we'll get there. >> i'm sure. s. >> talk about my wife's foundation for epilepsy research. >> will you make a donation to cure? >> absolutely. >> it's a remarkable organization. >> thank you. >> long way to go. >> thank you, david. great to be with you as always. >> see more with david axelrod in the mojo green room. go to joe.msnbc.com. you didn't talk to lewis bergdorf did you? >> no. >> oh, lord. >> behind the scenes interviews with david and other guests. >> how much are you going to give? >> 10,000. >> business before the bell is next. ♪ [ jim ] i need to push out a software upgrade. build a new app for the sales team in beijing. and convince the c.e.o. his email will find him... wherever he is.

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sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie. [ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business.

it is 43 past the hour. time now to get a check on business before the bell with simon hobbs live at the new york stock exchange. >> good morning, mika. >> good morning, simon. i guess we'll start in germany. >> well, yeah. the markets are really totally obsessed with whether or not greece is going to default over the next few days and you've seen this very heavy pounding on the european banks because they hold greek debt and whether that would take us other people defaulting in europe. it comes down to at the end of the day whether or not the germ

germans, angela merkel are willing to stump up more cash for the rest of europe to keep the whole euro zone project to float. within the last half hour or so we've had conflicting wire reports as to whether she and the french president were going to make a giant statement on that. we've got a number of events playing out in athens. it's tense. some of those french banks have lost about 70% of their value and people question whether this is a lehman's style event. i don't think it is yet. this time the european central bank is pumping the banks in europe with a lot of very cheap cash to keep the whole thing ticking over. that's the stark contrast to what happened with leeman. >> all right. cnbc's simon hobbs, thank you. we'll see you tomorrow. >> okay. >> up next never before released audiotapes from former first lady jacqueline kennedy, speaks candidly about her life, family and their time in washington.

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48 past. we're getting new insight into jacqueline kennedy and her life inside the white house. in eight hours of oral history recorded only months after her husband, president kennedy, was assassinated, the late first lady talked openly about leading political figures of the day. nbc's andrea mitchell has more on the never-before released audiotapes. >> they appeared to be a storybook couple from their marriage 58 years ago this week, to the election campaign and they're rifle at the white house with -- their arrival at the white house with their young family. in the oval office, hyannis, at work and play, it was that brief shining moment she once called camelot, before the tragedy and the scandals. now frozen in time and recaptured, in more than eight hours of tape, when she sat down with historian arthur schlessinger jr. in the spring of 1964. daughter caroline his her mother was in extreme grief when she began that oral history. less than four months after the

assassination. on march 2nd, 3-year-old john jr. wandered into the room and grabbed the microphone. >> john, what happened to your father? >> he's gone to heaven. >> he's gone to heaven. >> yeah. >> do you remember him? >> yeah. >> what do you remember? >> i remember -- i don't remember anything! >> reporter: there are also intimate glimpses of the kennedy marriage. she describes what she calls his childish mannerism of kneeling on the edge of the bed to say his nightly prayers. it was sweet, she said. it amused her. the president wept in his bedroom after the bay of pigs. you can hear the echos of desperation in her voice recalling the possibility of being evacuated and separated from him during the cuban missile crisis. >> i said please don't send me away to camp david, even if there's not room in the bomb shelter in the white house which i had seen, i said please, i

want to be on the lawn when it happens. i just want to be with you and i want to die with you. and the children do too. than live without you. >> reporter: she viewed her role as creating a climate of affection and comfort for her husband and she got her opinions from him. very different from the jackie kennedy heard elsewhere on the tapes. a woman with strong political opinions of her own. >> that was andrea mitchell reporting. we'll be right back. i know you're worried about making your savings last and having enough income when you retire. that's why i'm here -- to help come up with a plan and get you on the right path. i have more than a thousand fidelity experts working with me so that i can work one-on-one with you. it's your green line. but i'll be there

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i was price surprised that when we landed in kandahar, that you forced them to carry you around on a liter. i thought -- i thought -- i thought that was interesting and i -- i don't know where they got rose petals. certainly it's -- it's a dry and arid place but i'm glad you were comfortable. >> that usually only happens once a trip. >> pretty funny? coming up tomorrow on "morning joe" the republican governor of the state of florida, rick scott, will join us. also the great work horse,

dexter filkins. up next, what, if anything, did we learn today? [ female announcer ] lactaid milk is easy to digest. it's real milk full of calcium and vitamin d. and tastes simply delicious. for those of us with lactose intolerance... lactaid® milk. the original 100% lactose-free milk.

ahmadinejad. time to talk about what we learned today. william, what did you learn? >> i learned that nirvana references, those off the "in utero" album tend to fall flat at tea party debates. >> what did you learn?