about her own truthfulness. she needs to refer that mother and daughter immediately to medical experts so that a proper clinical assessment can be made, and then they can inform us as to whether there is any basis for the suggestion that a child became mentally retarded after receiving the vaccine. or she needs to admit that in her desperation to make an impact in the republican race for the white house, she may have been economical with the truth. and if she does neither, with then none of us should ever take her seriously ever again. thank you very much for watching. dylan ratigan's here to take us forward. dylan, what's on the agenda? >> a ferocious advocacy of the facts, i admire your journalism and the case that you just made, martin. well made. thank you so much. our show begins right now.

well, the big story today, too close for comfort. the taliban launching a coordinated assault on western targets in kabul, including the u.s. embassy. good afternoon to you. i am dylan ratigan. heavy fighting raging throughout the day with nato helicopters sent in to fend off insurgents in a brazen attack. militants took over a multi-story build in a heavily fortified part of the capital city and fired rocket-propelled grenades and assault rifles at the u.s. embassy. but it was just one part of a multi-pronged attack, which also targeted nato headquarters and local police stations. at least four afghan police officers, two civilians, and two insurgents have been reported killed in the battles thus far. but what does it all say to us about afghan stability and how does it affect the ongoing so-called exit plan that

president obama has in place? joining us now, nbc news chief foreign correspondent, richard engel, look with lieutenant colonel anthony shaffer, who e-mailed us as soon as this attack occurred to flag our staff as to the significance of this event. tony, what struck you about it? >> well, this is an equivalent of doing an attack in the green zone in baghdad. and i've been in hearings on the 27th of july where general keene, former vice chief of staff of the army, said that we have broken the back of the taliban, they are no longer an effective fighting force. and i've got to tell you, if you just look at the recent events, i've got to tell you, it doesn't seem to be in sync with the reality with which we're seeing right now, and that's what prompted me to e-mail you guys and chat about this. >> and to that end, i want to play you guys a clip of general petraeus characterizing the capability of afghan security. take a listen.

or don't take a listen. but trust me, general petraeus, as tony just suggested, recently was emphasizing the stability of the afghan security forces, richard, which begs the question, how do you reconcile the demonstration of capacity by the taliban or whoever this was today with the current portrayal of security capabilities? >> well, you have to also understand, today's attack was largely a failure. you had about a half dozen militants from a taliban linked group. they were dressed in burkas according to some reports. they climbed on top of this 13-story building which was still under construction, and from the rooftop fired down rocket-propelled grenades, small arms fires, and perhaps some shoulder-fired rockets. >> does that diminish the agree to which it was an indictment of the security force? >> to a degree. it's not like they drove a truck bomb into the u.s. embassy and killed everybody inside. they fired rpgs which are common in afghanistan from a distance at the u.s. embassy compound and

didn't hurt or kill anybody inside. the same thing at the nato headquarters, which is right across the street from the u.s. embassy. >> how do you respond to that interpretation, tony? >> well, look, this is downtown. i'm very familiar with this area. i used to launch my convoys from that compound they were talking about, the nato compound. this is in the heart of what's supposed to be secure. and i think, dylan, the most compelling thing we have to understand, that they brag about the ring of steel which surrounds kabul, and more importantly, when we talk about clear hold bill, this is the build part. kabul has now been turned over to the afghans for their own security. so what i'm saying here, i'm not saying we should stay and do anymore than we are, we should expand and move out more quickly, but we cannot hope to change the very fabric of the culture of the afghan people, nor their military in any substantial way between now and the time we have to leave. we have to give it to them, they have to take it over, and we have to be the ones protecting our own interests as we move out. and frankly, one other point real quick, we will never be

able to do anything about the insurgency in any substantial way until we deal with the pakistan safe havens of the taliban, which we've not been willing to do since 2003. >> go ahead, richard. >> first off on the pakistan safe haven, absolutely. this taliban-linked group is mostly based, the one that carried out this attack, along the border between afghanistan and pakistan. that's one. two, i completely agree that this is a problem because it's kabul. the entire surge and the u.s. launched this surge, which is supposed to be drawing down right about now, in order to increase security across the country and specifically in showcase places like the center of kabul. now, the surge is ending and we have a situation where afghanistan is really not a great deal safer. >> which brings us to a sort of the broadest -- >> starting to end. >> it brings us to the broadest philosophical question which i think most of the american people are asking themselves, that a lot of american politicians are asking

themselves, and a lot of people around the world are asking themselves. and it is this. if we left today, if we left in five months, if we left in five years, if we left in 15 years, would with what we ultimately walked away from be that much different, depending on the duration of our stay there, and more importantly, is doing that distracting us from the fundamental issues, whether it's in pakistan or in saudi arabia or in iran or wherever they may be. >> well, since you're talking big here -- >> i'm talking as big as we can get. >> then we'll start very small. the u.s. launched this war in afghanistan right after 9/11 in order to drive al qaeda and the taliban from power. that was done in three months. the u.s. ten years later is still there with much, much more force than was ever used to drive the taliban and al qaeda from power. they moved into pakistan, they have come back now. what the u.s. is trying to do

now is at least create some stability so the government of hamid karzai can take over and take control. the problem is, with each passing month, the government of karzai seems to be more and more unpopular -- >> which begs the question everybody's asking. does it matter -- >> does it matter -- >> -- and should we not just leave? >> if we left right now, most analysts i've spoken to believe that the karzai government would collapse almost immediately. >> but i guess the question, tony, is, does that analysis of a pending collapse of the karzai government upon immediate withdrawal hold water a year from now or five years from now, just as sure as it does today, because it's a corrupt architecture? >> that's right. it shouldn't matter. >> does it? >> no, it doesn't. if it falls, it falls. they don't like being forced to either side. next and more importantly is the fact that we are the ones who are now it shall. both sides are kind of attacking us in one way or another. we've got to get out from the

middle. if we achieve victory in 2003, we're done. we could have left then. and frankly, that's what we should have done. we keep trying to "help" these people and we can't do it. it's not really us -- we should not shape them in our form, they don't want to be shaped in our form. and most importantly, when you look at the current situation, dylan, if we left tomorrow, if the karzai government fails, i don't think the taliban have the momentum to actually become the governors of the country. there's too many other competing tribes and frankly, there's other elements that will prevent them from doing that. we'll always be there looking over their shoulders to make sure they can't launch attacks or do things to support al qaeda. it's just not in the cards for them. >> and there's a great irony in this. in that the united states brought karzai to power. the cia teams physically escorted him to parts of the country and helped him create his power base. that everybody knows. that's well documented history, karzai himself has talked about it. but now karzai is playing on a populous card. he is often driving some of this

anti-american sentiment in the country, trying to -- >> absolutely. >> trying to portray himself as on the afghan's people's side. >> good politics. >> so you have the u.s. risking lives to back up a government who is playing the u.s. presence there in a negative light in order to benefit himself. >> if there were a draft and we were drafting kids to go fight in this war right now, would this war still be going on? >> it's a hard question to answer, but at this stage, ten years on, probably not. because the iraq war probably wouldn't have happened and if the iraq war wouldn't have happened, this war probably would have wound up as your other guest just suggested, maybe right at the start. >> tony, you get the last word. >> well, we're now at tenth commander over there. general allen just took over. and his interpretation of victory or progress is that we're not securing the urban centers. well, that's just been dashed. we've got to get out from the middle here, dylan. we've won. it's time to leave, it's time to focus on real threats.

the taliban aren't a real threat to us. >> thank you very much, tony. do appreciate it, lieutenant colonel anthony shaffer. richard engel as well, nice to see you in new york. hope you're keeping well. >> keeping well. >> i watch you on tv with great concern and it's nice to get to see you in good health. >> thanks very much. >> anyway, fighting dangerous wars in iraq and afghanistan, but meanwhile we continue to ignore a country with clear ties to the events of 9/11. i'm referring to saudi arabia. please check out our latest "huffington post" blog about ending the saudi mystery around their royal family's connections to the terrorists of 9/11 and ultimately coming clean and releasing the withheld documents to the american people. we've also got our entire series about the middle east up at dylan ratigan.com, and of course, you can always find us on facebook and twitter. of course, richard engel reporting throughout the nbc platforms, not only on the issues of the attack in afghanistan, but the totality of

that region and that part of our lives. coming up here, the president now pushing job creation, coincidentally heading to three battleground states. whose jobs are these the guys more worried about? yours or theirs? also this hour, so sad it's funny. the stephen colbert of the stand-up circuit dragging me on stage tonight. we'll tell you how to catch the show. plus, walking toward a brighter future. which this guy's fast-growing shoe business tells us about finding what really matters. sam: i'm sam chernin. owner of sammy's fish box. i opened the first sammy's back in 1966. my employees are like family. and, i want people that work for me to feel that they're sharing in my success. we purchase as much as we can on the american express open gold card. so we can accumulate as many points as possible. i pass on these points to my employees to go on trips with their families. when my employees are happy, my customers are happy.

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there is work to be done, there are workers ready to do it, so let's tell congress, pass this bill, right away. >> pass this bill! pass this bill! pass this bill! pass this bill! pass this bill! pass this bill! >> well, the president this afternoon in ohio pitching a $447 billion jobs bill. the latest trip he's made to a 2012 battleground state as he fights to keep his own job. i want to bring in our tuesday megapanel. it's been a while since i've seen them. karen finney, susan del purseio, and our washington insider, jimmy williams. clearly, jobs has become the political banner of choice, but it's unclear whether both the obama jobs plan does anything really for jobs or whether they can be paid for for how long or anybody else's jobs plan. will it be adequate, jimmy williams, to staple the word "jobs plan" on a document, put a list of things you like in it,

and tell the american people that you've solved the problem. >> i think this library book is slightly over due by about 2 1/2 years. and some people have. but everyone's now finally speaking french in french class. i guess that's good. will it do anything? no. because there's absolutely nothing the president or the congress can do to make american consumers and american businesses create 3 million jobs in one year. nothing. absolutely nothing they can do. optics at this point. and thank god, again, we're all in french class speaking french. because it would suck if we were in french class speaking german. >> but -- public speaking like spanish or something else, not french. >> and i guess the concern is when you appear to solve the problem but don't solve the problem -- >> i didn't say they weren't going to, i just said they can't do it between now and -- >> and what i'm saying is without draeaddressing the underlying tax code and trade policies, you're not fixing the problem. >> of course. >> how do we avoid simply making

this horrendously worse ten years if now, which is what i feel we're doing. >> i think with we need to take a step back. we can all have this conversation about the underlying wshs, and absolutely those need to be dealt, but there are people literally dying, barely hanging on. i don't think the president is saying this is going to solve the problem, but this is a step. we've got to create incentives to hire, whether it's veterans, people who have been long-term unemployed, which is becoming a huge discrimination problem. there are other systemic problems that are cropping up that we have to try to address. >> and i completely appreciate that. >> i think you've got to do both. >> i totally agree. >> on the policy -- >> i guess my question is, why does the president not then say that? and say, listen, we've got a short-term crisis, which is a bunch of people that are completely screwed, that we as a society have to deal with by basically inventing a bunch of money and giving them pretend jobs until i get re-elected. and in that period of time, then we can have a real debate. but the problem is that we never have the real debate. or that we never had a real

health care debate. we just perpetuated an old, screwed up system. we never had a real banking debate. we never had a real debate when it came to the debt ceiling. we just went back and forth to who could screw each other over to make the whole thing go away. and quite honestly, my concern, and i suspect there are a lot of people in america that share this concern, not that it's yours to solve or anybody at this table, but the concern is that the jobs debate is going to be once again a synthetic effort to create an appearance that will not solve the problem. and my question is how long will the cya attitude of the incumbent politicians appearing to be spinning the wheels while they're at the speech be tolerated? >> 15 months. >> i don't -- >> you have to get through the next election cycle. no one's willing -- president obama didn't even say how we -- he said, oh, it's all paid for, his whole program. but he basically passed the buck on to the super committee. >> -- next week. you can look at it then and decide what you think. >> he said, i -- it's already paid for. he has not shown the public that

it's already paid for. congress is not doing much better, frankly. >> right. >> they're not delivering a jobs plan that's going to -- because no one can do it. i agree with jimmy, no one's going to have 3 million jobs by next november, and if they don't have it, they deem a failure. so all they do is talk about how they're going to fix everything and talk and talk -- >> and keep expectations -- >> i go back to what i always say, that's why it's incumbent on people. part of the reason you're hearing the tone from the republicans being a little bit different is, they all went home and got their butts kicked by their constituents who said, what are you doing? the more the american public puts the pressure on -- that's why the president went to eric cantor's district, is going to ohio to put the pressure on john boehner, to say, we've got to try to -- >> the volume -- >> meanwhile in new york, the most democratic district in new york city, it's a referendum on obama's policies, and a republican looks like he's going to win. >> there are a number of demographics, though, going on in that district. >> i would suggest that the american government is an alcoholic, and until it gets into a major car wreck and bangs

the living crap out of itself and gets bloody, it's not going to -- until the american economy hits bottom, it won't fix itself. >> it won't sober up. >> we can all have this conversation, we have money, we have homes, we're not as desperate as a lot of -- >> i know a lot of people who are -- >> so do i. >> where i fundamentally disagree with you is, if i cut my leg and am bleeding and i've got a truck on my leg, right, a truck has fallen on my leg, simply giving me a blood transfusion by putting more money in without resolving my shattered leg with a truck on it, you may make me feel better long enough to re-elect you, which is what these jobs plans are, which is just creating temporary blood transfusions into somebody that's completely screwed -- anyway, i want to talk about something else. >> but they're stopping the bleeding. >> but they're not stopping the bleeding. listen, you show me a banking system with no capital requirements that works and i'll give you every penny i make for

the rest of my life. it doesn't exist. it's a mathematical impossibility. i do want to talk about the republicans who made it a mathematical certainty, as best they can, that they can give rick perry a run for his money, especially from the right wing. take a listen. >> the real question is, does governor perry continue to believe that social security should not be a federal program, that it's unconstitutional, and it should be returned to the states? or is he going to retreat from that view? >> i'm a taxpayer. my taxes have gone up. our taxes have doubled since he's been in office. our spending has gone up double. our debt has gone up nearly triple. >> to have innocent little 12-year-old girls be forced to have a government injection through an executive order is just flat-out wrong. that should never be done. >> what's a government injection? do they -- did you guys get injected? >> you're asking the wrong man. i'm not going to touch that with a ten-foot pole. no way. >> so describe to me what we saw last night. because it certainly appeared that you had a lot of people

that were more extreme and more right than rick perry, who's perceived to be right, basically closing in on rick perry. >> they're taking him out for a test drive. he's never been -- i mean, he's never -- >> giving him a government injection. >> he hasn't been tested that much. yes, within his own state, but he's never run for president. romney has. and now he comes out as perhaps the answer for many. but you know what, they want to see, does he really have it in him to go the distance? and i think the next two months, you're going to see a lot more than that. >> and that's the point of this process, right? i think whether or not perry ends up the nominee, he's going to help make the other candidates better. i mean, that's what this process is. and hey, when you're the front-runner, people do pick on you like you're a piñata, and either you can handle it or you can't. >> good for mitt romney. >> ask hillary clinton and barack obama what it feels like to campaign against each other and get picked on. i would suggest to you 3 1/2 years ago we were going through this. >> but what about mitt romney in all of this? i want to get him in -- >> if i were advising mitt

romney, you know what i would tell him to do, shut the hell up and don't say a word and let the crazies beat this guy up. >> that's what he's doing. as perry gets hit from the right and the left and from wherever else, romney can step back and just let it happen. and again, romney will be the guy who has the money who can just wait it out. >> and more and more people are turning to romney right now. they thought, maybe go to perry, but he doesn't -- >> doesn't have the goods. >> my old boss and i, dick durbin, were talking one day about newt gingrich. i said, what's up with this guy? and he said, jimmy, when a train's about to hit the wall, what do you do, and i said, i don't know. and he said, step back and watch it. you know what, i'm stepping back and watching rick perry, because they are going to beat him to smithereens and i'm going to laugh the whole way. >> but if he survives it -- >> if he survives it, i bet barack obama wins. >> isn't that a james bond movie or something? >> if he survives it, we can talk more about government injections. >> all right. >> i don't like the word "injections." i don't like it.

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well, new questions today about whether greece is, in fact, too big to fail for the entire eurozone. german chancellor angela merkel, perhaps one of the ones with the most to lose as a big holder of greek debt saying the world will not sit back and wait to find out. promising that default is not an option. but as our specialists will tell us, financial speculators believe that default is not only an option, it's a probability, at least in some fashion. the situation there being compared here to the collapse of lehman brothers, where you have a significant financial enterprise, in this case, a country, that simple is illiquid and unable to pay its bills. what changed? well, not much, in fact, since lehman brothers. in fact, we've institutionalized

too big to fail status. wall street still maintains a private and relatively unregulated $600 trillion swaps market, some of which is useful, most of which is basically online gaming. all of it had been cemented into law with some risky practices that ultimately are all guaranteed by you and me, the taxpayer. and guess what, it's not even clear that europe has enough money to bail out greece, which mean guess who bails out europe? you heard it here first. you and me and our good buddy uncle sam. let's bring in our specialist, yahoo! finance columnist, david gross. there's 101 million interpretations of this, 101 million speculations about this. is there a message in the marketplace in the way they are either lending money to greece or pricing money with greece that debunks a lot of the fearmongering or validates a particular narrative, one way or another? >> i call it ode to a grecian burn. because their bonds trade, the one-year greek bond -- >> for those playing along at

home, that's money borrowed for one year. >> the u.s. pays less than 1%, they're paying, in effect, 111%. which means only people who are borrowing it are people paying a very tiny amount of money and are hoping to basically double their money in a year. and what they're banking on is that the european central bank and the europeans are going to continue to funnel cash to the greek government so that it can use that money, you know, to pay interest on the bonds. >> so, basically -- not to interrupt you, but to clarify, the greek bonds have become nothing more than a bet on whether greece will get bailed out. they're saying, they can't pay their bills. we're going to price this as a bet on what treshe and merkel and bernanke do. >> the thing everyone needs to know, it's not a bailout of the greek people. they're getting their salaries cut and their taxes raised. it's a bailout of the german banks. so the german politicians stand

there on their high horse saying, oh, we must not do this. but what they've done so far is sparing themselves from having to bail out their own banks. >> the biggest owner of greek debt is deutsche bank, correct? or one of? >> and the french banks have a lot of exposure. if they were to stop paying, all of a sudden those banks say, these assets that were worth $1 billion, oh, they're only worth $200 million, all of a sudden those banks look insolvent, you get runs on the bank. >> and they have this ripple again and we're off to the races. >> just going back to a point you were just making. do people really understand that? when you talk to people in europe or read what's going on, the impression is, well, why are we bailing them out? and the question i have, really, is what is the implication for the european union? because you have some talk now of maybe we shouldn't be -- you know, why am i going to want to defend these guys when they are the ones being irresponsible? >> i think the implications are quite bad. can you imagine this in the u.s., if we just said, hey, look, you know, nevada, they built their economy around casinos, eh, they have 20%

unemployment, we're not going to help them, we're not going to send them unemployment benefits or food stamps. just,, you know -- >> i never liked nevada anyway! >> but you take that, and imagine that was, you know, mexico that we were having to bail out or costa rica. these countries, the germans and the greeks, there's not a whole lot of love lost. you know, the 20th century -- >> i want to escalate this. so you have the actual people lending money to greece, who are basically saying, they're not going to pay this off, but it's a bet on whether they're going to get bailed out. then you have the betting going on or speculation going on around the viability of the european union and can the european union survive all this madness and go through it. then you have comments from people like sean egan over at egan jones that i want to play for everybody at a podcast this brings the european and greek problem directly back to the american taxpayer. take a listen to this. >> the european banks don't have the capital to absorb the hit, and the question is, how exactly is the financial system going to be rescued in europe? the question is who might be able to help out and the most

logical party is probably the u.s. government. >> yes. >> true. false? >> chairman bernanke, call for you on line two. we saw this in '08. >> i remember. >> bloomberg, to their credit, went and fought to the supreme court to get access to the data on who the fed was lending to. and guess what, they weren't just lending to goldman sachs and morgan stanley, they were lending to german banks like nobody's business in '08 and '09. there's every reason to believe that if there is some contagion, greek defaults, the french banks can't fund themselves, no one will extend credit to them overnight, they will do what they did in '08 and '09 and come back to the fed. >> doesn't that have some kind of impact -- obviously, it has an impact on our markets here. now you have everyday americans going once again with their hair on fire, what am i going to do? what am i going to do? is there anything we can do to kind of affirm or give them a chance to calm down a little bit? >> let me add one more piece of uncertainty. >> wonderful.

>> jimmy's feeling very confident. >> a lot of people keep their cash in money market funds. and we are told that money market funds are cash. what they really are is collection of bonds. and many of those bonds are bonds issued by german and french banks. so you think, i don't have any exposure to greece. all i have is my fidelity money market fund in boston. >> with we saw this in '08 when all these money market funds turned out to have lehman brothers money in them. >> what brings home the too big to fail circle, so it's not just the well-being of deutsche bank or the french banks or the greek people, that that ripples back to the central bank here. now i'm into the central banking system here, and people say, listen, we don't want to deal with this, we're not going to pay pinpoint ait. and the same way the germans say they're not going to pay it, what you find out you're not paying is yourself because you own a bunch of these bonds. we've got this incredibly complex financial system. it was rolled out in a logical

manner. it is manifesting itself to be much more of a game of hot potato, where basically these horrible amounts of risk just get channeled around, ever-growing around the world and the game is just a pass it. and unfortunately it, it keeps ending up with the american taxpayer and uncle sam. at what point are we forced to a bigger conversation that goes to marshall plan, that goes to brenton woods, that goes to a fundamental restructuring of, let's say, the swaps market, so classify, let's say, a portion of the speculative stuff as online gaming and take the end users and make -- there's a way forward here, but we never seem to get to the conversation, and i don't understand why, jimmy. >> i hate to say this, but the world is not trading in dollars and euros. the world is trading in nuclear waste right now, it's not worth anything, and nobody wants to touch it. and the reason they don't want to touch it is because it's not worth anything. i predict in less than two years, the european union is not going to exist. >> because they're going to end

up holding the bag. >> are you telling me that the bank of england is going to look at angela merkel and say, we're going to help you? hell no. >> every time somebody gets a little cajons and a little yippy kyai. >> i think the answer lies in not blowing up the european union, but bringing more people in. turkey has wanted in in the worst way. >> make them pay for the bailout. >> that economy is booming. >> so you're saying bring in chinese money, bring in turkish money and call the e euro zone/china/turkey and we're good to go. >> at some point you lose the political will. >> but the leverage of this system to force this is the most impressive leverage.

>> zeenophobia is going to rise and rise huge just like germany did and just like france. >> thank you, thank you, thank you, and thank you. >> thanks. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> thanks, y'all. >> that was very polite, didn't you think? just ahead, the little thing making 70 million men, well, a little less manly. just one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day helps defends against occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas and bloating.

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well, guys, when you become a parent, there are certain things you expect to lose, your sleep, your privacy, maybe even a little bit of your sanity, but how about your manhood? according to a new study, a man's testosterone level actually drops when he becomes a dad. researchers believe it's likely mother nature's way of making men more nurturing and family oriented instead of fighting and chasing the ladies. the first drop comes in the first month of your newborn's life and it keeps dropping the

more involved a father is with his children. but those lower testosterone levels can bolster your immune system, making a male healthier and less likely to pass something look to the little one and maybe even live longer. all of which reminds me of a certain rant from recently. i've been coming on tv for three years doing this! and the fact of the matter is that there is a refusal on both the democratic and the republican side of the aisle to acknowledge the mathematical problem. >> it's a nuance, but if you look closely, you might see some evidence that i don't quite have children just yet. straight ahead, a man with a plan, a wildly successful business owner with his six tips to transform your work and your life. [ indistinct talking on radio ] [ tires screech ] [ crying ]

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twice as fast as before. what, did you invent this or something? well, my team did. i'm dr. eric first, from bayer. wow. look. it has microparticles. it enters the bloodstream faster and rushes relief right to the site of pain. better? great! thanks. [ male announcer ] new bayer advanced aspirin. extra strength pain relief. twice as fast. test our fast relief. love it, or get your money back. well, we're back, breaking down six simple keys that our next guest claims will help all of our transform our lives and our businesses, keys to creating not just work but meaningful work that actually contributes to the greater good. it's my pleasure to introduce to you blake mckosky who started the very successful tom's shoe company. he is also the author of "start something that matters." there's the book cover. and it's a pleasure to have you here. >> thanks for having me, dylan. >> you have six points, i just

want to cut straight to this. but before i get directly into it, the objective of applying this is what? >> it's really just to have more significance in your life and your work. i think the idea of just making as much money as possible is not as appealing and that job security is definitely not there, as we're seeing in the economy. if you're going to work and spend your life working, you with might as well have some significance, and that's why it's called "start something that matters." >> got it. the first thing you say is find your story. >> i don't think consumers pay as much attention to product features and descriptions, those aren't things they remember. therm a great story. and by having a great story with your company or personal brand, it's easier to spread, which is key to starting a successful business. >> and you say face your fears. >> the number one with reason people don't start something that matters, they have a desire, but they're afraid. i say, don't quit your day job. when i started toms, i was running another company and

tom's was until it was big enough to go on its on. >> you say, beresourceful without resources. >> we started tom's with a few interns in our apartment and not a lot of venture capital. a lot of people say, i can't start something because i don't have investors or i don't have these resources. i make an argument and show through history how much very successful company straries hav started with next to nothing. when you start with next to nothing, it's an advantage, because you have to be more creative and problem solving. >> and you're saying the additional pressures, if you're able to convert it, actually yields a more quantum solution, because you're forced into that situation. >> exactly. companies that have a ton of investment dollars in the beginning often fail and we document some of the most successful companies and some of the biggest failures, who had too many -- >> just because they're highly capitalized, so there's very little pressure to do anything that innovative. >> and pressure's a good thing when you're starting a company. >> build trust. >> i woubuild trust.

more than anything in today's business environment, you need trust not only externally, but internally. when you're transparent with your employees and talk about the mission of the organization and how you're going to get there, they're going to be more excited to fulfill that mission. so i highlight great companies like zappos and tony shay. he builds an incredible amount of trust which creates great smer service and loyalty. they know when they order on zappos, they'll get free shipping both ways, because that's what they promise. >> giving is good business. >> that's the reason i wrote this book. i started tom's as a good business to give away a pair of shoes every time we sell a pair, and because of that, we've helped 2 million people. >> what's with you and tony -- with all these -- with the really good guys, with really good values, that seem to like to sell shoes. what is it about selling shoes? >> i don't know how we both got in the shoe business, but we definitely have the same value set. >> it is a treasure, an admirer of yours i am, so it's nice to

have you here. i spoke there a little bit like yoda for a second. "start something that matters" is the book, blake mycoskie. coming up on "hardball," forget president obama, the republicans have their new target and it is rick perry, ladies and gentlemen. but next, how to get rich cheating. the funny man who's got me getting in on the act. do you have an irregular heartbeat called atrial fibrillation, or afib, that's not caused by a heart valve problem? are you taking warfarin to reduce your risk of stroke caused by a clot? you should know about pradaxa. an important study showed that pradaxa 150mg reduced stroke risk 35% more than warfarin. and with pradaxa, there's no need for those regular blood tests. pradaxa is progress. pradaxa can cause serious, sometimes fatal, bleeding. don't take pradaxa if you have abnormal bleeding,

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well, our next guest is blending reality with performance art. he knows all the tricks to

making guilt-free money, and not only is he willing to share it with you, he's even recruited me to help spread the word as part of his act a little bit later tonight here in new york. joining me now is comedian jeff caressler, author of "get rich quick," also in a show tonight entitled how to get rich cheating. you're basically teaching people how to do it. >> everyone does it, why not -- >> this is the self-help environment for people that are looking to get rich, but have given up on getting rich by doing, for instance, what my friend blake mycoskie just did over at toms shoes. >> that guy was really funny. that was a satire, with his whole like -- >> do these things, good things. >> i understand, be a good person, you don't want to end up on your death bed wishing you had spent more your time with your money. so that's why you should get rich. >> what's wrong with creating

value for other people? >> other people aren't there. we make money alone. >> so you're saying people are there to extract money from? the reason that human beings exist is they're an opportunity for those who are good at getting rich to take money from? >> absolutely. we should exploit people. there are so many ways to do it. my recent favorite is student loans. i mean, student loans, you give kids a hundred grand, high interest rates, and make sure that you track them down. student loan companies track kids to the end of the earth. if osama bin laden had a student loan, we would have caught him september 12th. >> so you're saying, why bottom creating value when working inside of it -- but isn't that the cynical collapse of the american dream? >> dylan, i'm really looking forward to having you on the show tonight, because i want to change your perspective. rome is burning and you're trying to put out the flames. you should be selling fiddles and marshmallows. get yours while you can. >> what of the assertion -- and i do believe the flames can be

extinguished, actually -- of instead of pouring gas on the fire, as your seminar suggests ought happen in order to accelerate the incendiary activity around rome, why not put out the fire and release a renaissance of new ideas, innovation, and opportunity for countless millions who would never otherwise have that chance, were it not for the release of the renaissance? >> that is really cute. however, a rising tide may lift all boats, but a focused geyser of cheating will blow your yacht to unknown heights of ecstasy and wealth. >> but what of that -- you say ecstasy and wealth. i know a lot of people who have gotten rich cheating who are miserable? >> well, they haven't learned to ignore this morality and this guilt thing, which is a self-created phenomenon. if you look at the great cheaters, the bernie madoffs, the aigs, the goldman sachs, they don't seem to have guilt.

they don't feel bad. it's the middle people who just steal a couple grand, a free cable, a night in the hotel room. the ones who really make a difference and make the billions, day don't worry about morality. >> so you're saying the key to being a good cheater is to turn off that self-correcting mechanism that frequently manifests as guilt or shame or anxiety or some other deterrent? >> sure. if you look at all the great cheaters, whether it's in politics or business, they don't care about other people. and as we were saying before, why support a whole society if you only care about yourself? so just be selfish, and you'll make money and you'll enjoy the money. >> but, again, there's so many people that seem to have the money, but aren't enjoying it. >> mm-hmm. >> and there are so many people who really only need a little bit of money to simply survive, who don't have an interest in making a bunch of money. they want to just be able to eat and have a house. but you have all of these people that are taking that money so they can just sit there and feel a false sense of security, because they have a bunch of money, but they're still miserable. how is that good?

>> well, you have to redefine what's good and bad. i mean, who's defined good and bad, right and wrong? the same people who tell us "two and a half men" is funny. like, they don't really know. the same people who are poor and are happy with poor, the rich people can take their money. the rich people who are happy, come to my seminar, pay me 35 grand, buy my book, and i'll be happy. >> is that the going rate now? >> it is. spitzer's ex-madame is doing an empowerment seminar for 35 grand. >> so she just set a new floor for your pricing model? >> yeah. and i think, actually, i would go higher, because i bet she has some sort of fringe benefits. >> at the end of the day, your entire routine is based on, obviously, a satire of the prevailing western value system? >> it is a satire based in truth. you know, as you mentioned many times, america, you know, it's a country where cheating sometimes isn't the easy way, it's the

only way. i mean, we're a country built on land stolen from people we were too dumb to know didn't come from india and was built by slaves. america's a great place, but there's cheating that's endemic in the system. it's a corrupt economic system. >> do you fully think that i have -- me, a fool, for having abandoned my financial journalism career with cnbc and all the rest of it to come over into this universe where i am literally attempting to advocate for the reforms and everything in our banking system, in our trade agreements, in our tax code that might align the interests of the wealthy with the rest of the people of this country? do you think that that's a foolish mission? >> i would never say that you're a fool to your face. what i would say is that you've adjusted and found a new market for yourself, a place where people want to hear that message, and you can take advantage of it. >> but that suggests that i needed a new market. i would say that the higher compensation, lower workload, and more abundant environment,

when i was hosting "fast money," every aspect of my life has been downgraded since i left "fast money," both in terms of compensation, workload, and being hated by my neighbors, and yet the decision that i made to face that was because i actually believe that these problems are fixable, and to sit around collecting a paycheck at cnbc while i pay golf would make me kind of an ass. >> well, we can work with that. all we need to do is tweak what you're doing. you can get the 5:00 or 6:00 spot by hacking some voice mails. little tricks. you can keep what you're saying is important to you and still make billions of dollars. >> so your point is you can take anybody who's maybe well intentioned and enhance what they're doing with cheating. >> sure. that's the american way. >> there's an underlying issue here, which is there's a lot of evidence over tens of thousands of years that human beings who have aligned interests and work together toward shared goals or

shared values tend to have prosperity, shared resources, and a generally happy population. that populations with grossly misaligned interests tend to destroy themselves. why is it a bad idea to look to history and say, we know that if we align our interests and have shared goals and shared values, we can get somewhere, as opposed to simply accepting the currently misaligned interests that are destroying us? >> well, it sounds like a question more for a republican tea party debate than for someone that's trying to enhance your personal wealth. i think that there's an opportunity for us to get rich while maybe leading that revolution, while leading everybody up a little bit, you can be the wealthy guy at the top. >> you can be the rich guy leading the change, you're saying? >> right. and ultimately, if you're really good at being rich and getting rid of your morality and your ethics, you won't really have those other people have change. you'll just kind of skim it for yourself. >> it will just become -- so you