is she still very much alive in this? >> i think so. i think she did really, really well. she had rick perry back on his heels. she took him across her knee, and spanked him hard last night. and he deserved it. i thought she was very, very good. >> all right. heidi and mike, always a pleasure to have you with us tonight. spirited debate on that. thanks a lot. that's "the ed show." i'm ed schultz. tomorrow night, "the ed show" goes to toledo, ohio, and you're invited. we'll see you from the corner of south huron and washington tomorrow night with a live performance of "the ed show." hope you can join us if you're in the neighborhood. playoffs. let's play "hardball." good evening.

i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, fear factor. how scared of rick perry is the republican establishment? well, in one short month, perry shot to the top of the gop chart with tough texas talk about state's rights and saying the federal reserve chairman may be guilty of treason. it's raw meat for the base, but the party's grown-ups, if you will, desperate to beat president obama, are growing worried. perry's loose lips could sink their ship. and it's not just the republican establishment hitting perry. look at what happened last night. the texas governor got beat up from the right at that tea party debate with michele bachmann and rick santorum leading the attack. can perry take the punches and keep on swinging? plus, why has rick perry caught fire so quickly? we're going to ask ad guru donny deutsch, who thinks perry's got just what the right wants these days. plus, president obama goes to ohio, home of house speaker john boehner to sell his american jobs bill. and if speaker boehner doesn't think there's work to be done, we've got the list -- oh, you knew we would -- of 95 bridges in boehner's own district that

are structurally deficient according to the department of transportation, and one's in immediate need of repair right there in boehner's own district. and let me finish with the reign of terror sweeping through the tea party right. we start, however, with rick perry in the republican establishment. pat buchanan, who is not part of the establishment, is an msnbc political analyst, and george pataki, a longtime governor of new york joins us. a man who i once thought would be the nominee of the republican party. shows what i know about republicans. anyway, last week karl rove was asked about rick perry's past writing and statements on social security being a ponzi scheme. here's what rove told abc news. let's watch. >> well, what they've done thus far is, i think, inadequate. which is to basically say, look, we didn't write the book with the presidential campaign in mind. okay, well, fine. but they are going to have to find a way to deal with these things, because as you say, they're toxic in a general election environment, and they are also toxic in a republican primary. >> vin weber, a former

republican member from colorado says there's quote, deep concern inside the republican party about nominating perry, given his lack of appeal from moderates and independents. vin weber told "the new york times," i think it's partly establishment versus tea party. there's no question about that. how concerned should we be? people i talked to are concerned. well, that's vin webber. after the debate last night, gop strategist mike murry wrote, quote, perry is not ready for the press scrutiny he's facing. here's what the great murphy tweeted while watching the debate. "listening to perry try to put a complicated policy sentence together is like watching a chimp play with a locked suitcase." that is the inimitable words of mike murphy. patrick, i can only go to you with that. but what is going on? i got a sense -- i get a sense, in the media world here, which there are not a whole lot of republicans floating around, but there are a few i suppose, all worried, trouble in river city, we've go the to stop this guy perry because we've got to get the right nominee.

what's going on in your erstwhile political party? >> i think they're scared to death of rick perry, because, one, he's not one of them. and second, there's this fear that's existed since goldwater, if we give him the nominee, he'll explode and take down the ticket with him and he'll also lose the senate and house when we got this golden opportunity. chris, this is the battle we've had, 1968 with richard nixon. it was look, you nominate nixon, you lose. rockefeller's guys were putting out polls, you nominate nixon, you lose. go back to taft. we want to win. we've got eisenhower. this is a battle endlessly in the republican party for the nomination. the problem with rick perry, for the establishment, is he is really out there and he is out front right now. >> he seems to have the juice for the campaign. i'm not sure he has the wit for it. let me go to governor pataki. governor pataki, i've always thought of you as an eastern republican. i know you're a conservative, but what is the difference now between conservatives -- everybody's a conservative in the republican party now, i

guess -- and perry? what's the fight? >> i think pat buchanan really hit it on the head. there are two reasons why rick is getting hammered these days. one is he is from texas, and he's not part of the establishment and he hasn't used the rhetoric that washington insiders get very comfortable with. and two, he's the front-runner. and the front-runner's always going to be attacked from both sides by people who want to derail him. but i think, let's calm down. it's early in the process. he's only been in the race a few weeks. he has the ability and the time to answer questions, whether it's about social security or things he wrote in his book. he has the time to lay out an agenda as to what he would do if he's the nominee and what he would do if he's president. so, i mean, the media gets all in this huff because people are taking shots and, yes, he's used some texas-type rhetoric. >> last night it looked like "gulliver's travels" and to looked like the lilliputians. have you ever seen a candidate hit from left, right and center?

he was being hit as too conservative on things, and one thing, social security, but seen as too left on things like -- >> he's getting it from two directions. here's the reason, chris, one, romney's running a general election campaign, and social security is a wounding issue on the general election. the others have got to get rick perry out of the way. michele bachmann, ron paul, and rick santorum. they are coming at him from the right. that's the only place from which perry can bleed. what hurt perry last night is not the ponzi scheme, it's that inoculations forced on those 12-year-olds and the immigration issue, which is a real problem. >> yeah, i agree. >> you'll notice that romney got around to perry's right on immigration, because that's a general election issue as well. >> how did he do that? because he wants a tougher border like you do. >> he said in-state tuition, you don't give benefits to people in the country illegally. >> will that work? are you concerned about that, governor pataki, that in tearing down rick perry for being too liberal, the party looks pretty far right?

>> no, i don't think so. because, first of all, most of the public isn't paying attention. obviously, we all are, you are, the people who watch the debate, but the public's not focused yet. and i think what the people are going to want to see in a general election is an alternative policy direction to the one that obama has put in place over the last three and a half years, and there's plenty of time to do that. i think -- >> you don't think ponzi scheme has been hurt by the average person living down in south florida? the average person in retirement? they haven't heard that word "ponzi scheme" -- >> they're going to hear it 100,000 times between now and next november if rick perry's the nominee, but i think he can lay out a reform of social security that says, you know what i mean, it's underfunded. it's not going to be there for our children. everybody knows that's true, and here is the solution, and if he does that, i think all this -- >> what's a reformed ponzi scheme? i mean, i've covered all kinds of campaigns. what's a reformed ponzi scheme? let the governor answer this.

>> look, chris, it's not a ponzi scheme. it's an underfunded entitlement program that's going to go bankrupt and run out of money if we don't fix it, and i think there's plenty of time for the republican nominee, whether it's rick perry or someone else, to lay out that plan and take it to senior citizens in south florida and say this is what i will do. it's not going to hurt you at all, and it's going to help your children and grandchildren. >> here's why i think perry's got the upper hand in your party and why i think he's doing very well. look at this poll number right now, we've got the latest cnn poll. there'll be more polls as we go along here, but this is pretty hefty. down below 20, at 18, just a bit above sarah palin who's not running, and ron paul who's always going to be a swa minority candidate down at 12, and herman cain, a good fellow, but he's probably not going to win and gingrich probably not going to win, and bachmann down below them at 4, not even on the chart. if you hold that chart up there, governor, everybody is to the right of romney on that list.

everybody. so if it comes down to the playoffs, governor, it looks to me like all of those votes coalesce around perry. because they're all to the right of romney. i don't see how romney brings people to the left to him. he's to the left of those people. look at that. perry's to his right. palin's certainly to his right. ron paul's to his right. cane is to his right and gingrich is to his right. once you get to the playoffs, it will be everybody against -- >> but perry's got to clear the field. that's the problem. that's the problem i had, it's a problem conservatives -- >> you can't get rid of those people like herman cain. >> what perry's got to do is get to south carolina alive and have the field cleared of michele bachmann and santorum. he's not going to get ron paul out and have a head-to-head with mitt romney in south carolina. i don't see how romney beats him in south carolina. then you've got a new race starting. if perry can get there, standing up. >> what do you think of that scenario, governor? >> i think there's really a different dynamic this year. and the dynamic is, we used to have anti-communism uniting the republican conservative side, so

the others should seem less important. there's one issue uniting republicans and independents now, and that is to replace obama. and i think if rick or romney or anyone in this race who is credible comes out with a plan that people can look at from across the republican side of the political spectrum and say, yes, this will lead our country in a better direction, keep the focus on the failed policies of this administration, and present the alternative -- and i think you can win the nomination, pat. >> but what kind of election night is that, governor, where you don't applaud the winner, you applaud the concession speech? can you imagine a country where on election night, the people on the right are giggling and getting drunk that obama's been thrown out of the white house, but say, who do we have in there now? oh, yeah, this guy, who's sort of an establishment guy from st. paul's, he's lds, i don't know what he is, i guess he's sort of middle of the roader. do you really think that the right, the tea party right, who couldn't imagine in a million years mitt romney walking into a tea party meeting, in a million years he would never go to that tea party meeting, being happy

about his nomination? >> chris, whether or not they're happy about his nomination, if he is the nominee and lays out a conservative platform that he would put in place to change this country, he'll get their votes. he'll get their votes as much because they want to change and replace this administration as, perhaps, the lack of excitement on his side, but it doesn't matter. do you get the votes or not? mitt romney would get those votes. i think rick perry will get those votes. >> you know, romney almost has a bye into the finals into the eastern conference. >> he's won the eastern conference. perry, there's a number of guys he's got to eliminate in the western conference. and they're going after him terribly -- >> who's got the wild card? is there anybody else besides these two? >> no, you've got huntsman in the eastern conference, but he's -- >> he's out by next week. governor, i had you on because you're a highly educated ivy leaguer, unlike us. i wanted you to look at some of these numbers here. here's the latest best chance of beating obama cnn poll. among general republicans, perry gets 42%, romney gets 26%.

so he's favored -- perry is favored among republicans as to who they think has a better shot against the president. but then when you go to the washington insiders, and this is always a poll done by "national journal," political insiders, 69% say romney. so there you have the establishment, if you will, saying romney's the best bet, but the average republican voter doesn't make that strategic assumption. how do you make that -- isn't that important to know? not everybody's thinking strategically. >> four years ago, the republican establishment was saying that john mccain was the right person. and that we couldn't win with a mike huckabee. i have a great deal of confidence in the people, as opposed to the experts and the insiders and the establishment. >> okay. >> it's early in the process. the one thing that we can be sure of is it's going to change dramatically. i think rick perry not only can win the nomination, he can win the general election, but i think mitt romney can as well. >> who would be a better president -- you or rick perry? >> you have to look at the people -- >> you have to answer the

question! you have to answer the question. you must answer this question. who is a better candidate for president, who would be a better sitting president, george pataki with three terms behind him as governor of new york, the empire state, or this guy from down in the lone star state? who would be more qualified to be president of the united states? >> chris, it's a moot point, i'm not a candidate. >> oh, he's jesse jackson. it's a moot point. you got that from him. the question is moot. >> chris, it's a tough call. a tough call. >> my bottom line, do you think rick perry's qualified to be president? >> yes, i do. >> governor, do you think he's qualified to be president? >> yes, i do, governor for ten years of one of the largest state in the country. a lot better qualification than obama had. >> this is the fight of a life. >> he's a better debater than you think he is, he's a better debater than george w. bush was in 2000. >> let me tell you from the liberal, center left point of view. for years people -- i worked in the white house, worked for frank moss years ago. they always said, let us run against the liberal, the far right guy because we can always beat the far right guy. we can't handle george herbert walker bush, let's go to center, reagan clobbered him.

a nice moderate republican from the establishment, he's the guy we're afraid of. orrin hatch never heard of the guy. he killed him. >> right, go on. >> so these right wing guys do win general elections. the idea that if you're far right you can't win is wrong. >> they get out the energy and the enthusiasm and fire. >> the left always gets it wrong. they always think, let us run against a right winger, we can beat him easy. yeah, we'll see. although i still think it's easier to beat rick perry. thank you, pat buchanan, and if i can't push bachmann, i've got to push perry. coming up, it wasn't just the establishment shirts like romney coming after perry last night, the skins got into the game, too, hitting the texas governor from the right. he was getting battered. can perry take the punches and keep on fighting? you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

well, voters are actually voting today. they're heading to the polls today in a pair of special elections and house races in upstate, actually, in brooklyn, new york, and in nevada. as first read points out,

democrats were expecting one to be a nail-biter and the other to be a blowout for them. but the problem for democrats, their candidates are about to be blown out in nevada, and they could lose a close election in that usually safe district in brooklyn and queens, once held by anthony weiner. polls close at 9:00 eastern in new york and 10:00 in nevada. look for a double header loss tomorrow morning. we'll see. we'll be right back.

welcome back to "hardball." last night marked a first, a tea party sponsored debate for the republican presidential nomination. and the front-runner in the race, texas governor rick perry, got hit from, as we said, all sides. well, last night's debate performance end up hurting perry? we'll see. joining us right now to score the debate is author and commentator ron reagan and former republican national committee chairman and msnbc contributor michael steele. but before we get into what happened inside the debate hall last night down in tampa, let's talk about this scene on the outside. this is a video of an airplane

flying around over the debate site, which was sponsored by world net daily editor joseph forah. it's flying a banner that reads "where's the real birth certificate?" are we going down this path again, michael steele? what is it in the bloodstream of the republican party that won't let go? i think there's about 6% of republicans that won't drop this baby. that guy's flying a plane, spending a thousand bucks to waste his money. >> well, that's his money, and he can waste it. and it's not in the bloodstream of the republican party. you would see a vast majority of the republicans, you just cited the percentage, so that means 94% of the republicans think that this issue is dumb to talk about, particularly now that it's been solved. so i think that individual spent his money, you know, his chance to get on national news, he flies his little plane around with his little tail on there and you move on. it doesn't mean anything. >> so it's a small, insignificant minority -- >> a small -- >> as a republican -- >> ron reagan, how come i don't fully buy the fact that there isn't an undercurrent of

anti-obama almost deeply tribal attitude about the guy that gets so deep under the skin, they don't know what to call themselves, birthers, they'll come up with something or they can't use that against him. that guy flying the plane was a real person. >> i imagine that the group in that hall last night for that debate, i imagine if you polled them, more than 6% of the people in that hall thinks that obama doesn't have a legitimate american birth certificate. it's not even just obama or even race in this case. i think these are people who think that anybody who doesn't reflect their point of view and ascends to the white house is somehow illegitimate, just because they don't reflect their point of view. >> okay. let's try to get to the gut. excuse me, ron. let's get to the gut instincts of the people in that hall, which i found rather frightening, just like i did of the people at the reagan library. here's an eyebrow-raising clip. here's the crowd at last night's debate reacting to a hypothetical question from wolf blitzer about caring for an individual in a coma who does not have an insurance. take a listen.

>> that's what freedom is all about, taking your own risks. this whole idea that you have to prepare and take care of everybody -- >> but congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die? >> no. >> did you hear that yelling, did you hear that woman in blond hair shaking her head yes? this crowd was like something out of the french revolution. they were unbelievable. >> chris, they would be the first one looking for that assistance from whatever source, including the federal government, if they were in that situation. >> that's what i say. i argue this with my kids. you say, you're on a motorcycle or something, you want somebody to come get you from the highway. by the way, i'm talking about your party now, here they go again. last week at the reagan library, look at the exchange that came up with executions when perry started bragging on his list of the executions. let's listen to the nbc/politico debate. >> in the state of texas, if you come into our state and you kill one of our children, you kill a

police officer, you're involved with another crime and you kill one of our citizens, you will face the ultimate justice in the state of texas, and that is you will be executed. >> what do you make of -- >> well, there was a lot more of that. that clip wasn't done right. i can tell you. there was a lot more of that enthusiasm -- it crackled in that hall. and i was sitting up there in the balcony, and i had never heard anything about it. these people, they heard execution, and then he said it again, and they thrillingly got up again. >> you and i looked at each other, when he gave the number he had executed, 234 people, and they applauded that. >> what is it in your party? >> it's not just my party, a lot of americans support the death penalty and feel very strongly about it. and i think the way the governor laid out the argument for the death penalty there with respect to children and police, people would generally agree with. where i had a problem was just the -- >> by the way, if you extrapolate, every state what they do in texas, it would be like 15,000. how many people are we supposed to execute?

>> where i have the problem, just the reaction to the killing of any individual, whether it's by someone who goes into a home or -- >> you mean you're pro-life? >> very much so. consistently so. >> ron reagan, what do you make of this? this bloodlust for letting people die on the gurney if they don't have the right insurance cards and for killing people? >> yeah, well, the killing people part, that's -- you know, that's -- many people may support the death penalty, not that many americans, i think, would hoot and holler for the death penalty. that's a different subset of people. >> exactly, ron. >> as far as the insurance thing goes, you know, that's the sort of thing that might sound good after a few too many beer bongs in your dorm in college or something, you know, we'll let them die and doesn't that make me sound kind of intellectually tough-minded or something. but you give it five minutes' thought and you reject that notion. the problem for the republican party is that there is a goodly number of people in that party who have not given it five minutes' thought. and they're going to have to deal with those people. >> you're so smart.

let's take a look at one of the most pointed exchanges of last night. this is the one that got the headlines between romney and perry. >> do you still believe that social security should be ended as a federal program, as you did six months ago, when your book came out and return to the states, or do you want to retreat from that? >> i think we ought to have a conversation -- >> we're having that right now, governor. we're running for president. >> if you'll let my finish, i'll finish this conversation. the issue is are there ways to move the states into social security, for state employees or for retirees? rather than trying to scare seniors, like you're doing and other people, it's time to have a legitimate conversation in this country about how to fix that program. >> where's this going to end up, michael? this debate over social security? it sounds like the kind of thing we had back in the '60s, we had in the '70s, the '80s. your party never seems to lose this one. dump it. >> they're not going to dump it, and for good reasons. because the system, by and large, has problems that need to be fixed. i think where the governor will admit now that he made the

mistake was not leading with the solution. in other words, i see a problem, i want to fix it. >> he said it was unconstitutional. he said the whole system is unconstitutional. >> well, again, how you frame your initial argument is going to stay with you in a presidential race throughout the race. >> ron, you've been through this, your family, we've all been through this debate at the dinner table. i've argued as a kid saying, why do we have to have social security. my dad would say, you have to have it because people are irresponsible or poor and they don't prepare for their futures and somebody will end up having to pay for it with welfare anyway, so why don't we make people provide for their futures basically through forced saving and social security. that argument has always been able to sell with the majority? >> yes, and it will continue to be able to sell with the majority. you know, a ponzi scheme is a crime. governor perry is on record calling social security a crime. and he can't really run away from that effectively and i don't think he did a good job of it last night. but the people he's appealing to, the tea party types he's appealing to, they also think it's a ponzi scheme.

they don't care if it sounds a little stupid. what really hurt him last night, though, is not social security. i agree with pat buchanan for the last segment. it was the hpv thing, because that kills him with the tea party people. >> let's go with that. here he is, michelle bachmann taking on the fight. let's watch. >> the governor's former chief of staff was the chief lobbyist for this drug company. the drug company gave thousands of dollars in political donations to the governor. and this is just flat-out wrong. >> the company was merck, and it was a $5,000 contribution that i had received from them. i raised about $30 million, and if you're saying that i can be bought for 5,000, i'm offended. >> well, i'm offended for all the little girls and the parents that didn't have a choice. that's what i'm offended for. >> by the way, i lost something in translation from texas there. in other words, if you said i was bought for $50,000, it

wouldn't be an offensive comment. what are we talking about? the price war, the old joke, the price that's the play here. >> that's one of those lessons, chris, that you learn where you leave it alone. you do not go down that road. michele had set that up perfectly. he walked right into that and she closed the trap. boom. >> yeah. i'm worried about the women there. >> a terrible sequence for him. >> where are you, ron? should young women with danger of cervical cancer out there be told in school you have to have this shot? >> we vaccinate for all sorts of things and hpv would probably be a decent thing to vaccinate for. yeah, whether you should do it with an executive order or not, you know, that's for other people to decide. but, yeah, the vaccine is probably a good idea. >> this goes back to the old arguments over fluoridation. you know, how much role does the public play? it goes way back should the public make these decisions or families be making them? it's a good american argument. as long as we're a republic, we have to have these arguments because it's how we stay free. i mean that. >> absolutely. >> you've got to fight about

this stuff, or other people will make the decision for you. a good country. we know what to fight for. thank you. thank you michael steele and ron reagan. up next -- and that's not rhetoric, i really believe you have to argue these things out as citizens or somebody else will be making these decisions out of habit and you don't want them to get about habit. talk about corny, the republicans were all asked about what they would bring to the white house if they won. cue the canned answers. next in the sideshow. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc.

back to "hardball." now for the sideshow. first up, adding a personal touch at last night's cnn tea party debate, the 2012 gopers were asked for some personal specifics on what they would add to the white house should the election were in their favor. think they would be unprepared for that question? not in the slightest. let's listen.

>> i have seven children, so i would add some bedrooms and some beds to the white house. >> winston churchill used to have his bust in the white house, and if i were president of the united states, it will be there again. >> i would bring a copy of the declaration of independence, the constitution of the united states and the bill of rights. >> i'm going to bring the most thoughtful and incredible first lady this country has ever seen. >> i'd bring a bushel basket full of common sense. >> we'd have a lot more music and a very large chess set. >> i would bring my harley davidson and motocross bike. >> i would bring a sense of humor to the white house, because america's too uptight. >> that's grounds for coming up with another candidates' list. i did like romney's call to bring back the bust of winston churchill to the white house. too bad churchill himself isn't among the candidates. and now for the big number. gop candidate rick perry may be making headlines for clarifying or classifying social security as a monstrous lie and a ponzi

scheme, but that doesn't mean people agree with him. in a new cnn poll, catch this number, people were asked whether they agree with that monstrous description of social security. how many of those identifying themselves as republicans answered no, 69%. not quite rallying the troops on that one. 69% don't like the call on social security a monstrous lie. up next, president obama turns up the heat on house speaker john boehner, pushing his jobs plan in boehner's home state of ohio today. if you don't think america needs jobs, i've got a bridge for you to fix. make it 95 of them, all in john boehner's district, all structurally deficient. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. let me tell you about a very important phone call i made. when i got my medicare card, i realized i needed an aarp... medicare supplement insurance card, too. medicare is one of the great things about turning 65, but it doesn't cover everything. in fact, it only pays up to 80% of your part b expenses. if you're already on or eligible for medicare, call now to find out how an aarp...

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maybe there's some people in congress who would rather settle our differences at the ballot box than work together right now, but i've got news for them. the next election is 14 months away, and the american people don't have the luxury of waiting that long. >> welcome back to "hardball." president obama traveled to speaker john boehner's home state of ohio today to highlight a renovated school in columbus and to push for construction jobs to update schools and repair the nation's infrastructure. let's listen. >> there's a bridge in cincinnati that connects ohio to kentucky that needs this kind of renovation. there are construction projects like these all across the country, just waiting to get started, and there are millions of unemployed construction workers who are looking for a job, so my question to congress is, what on earth are we waiting for? >> wow. well, that bridge in cincinnati just happens to connect the home states of speaker boehner, ohio, and senate republican leader

mitch mcconnell, so can the president get republicans aboard his plans to create american jobs? u.s. congresswoman marsha blackburn is from tennessee, she joins us now live, and congressman tim ryan, a democrat from ohio. welcome to both of you. congresswoman blackburn, i guess the question is all politics being local, i have to wonder being local, i have to wonder whether the president isn't doing the right job politically here by going around, playing hardball, if you will, calling attention to projects that could immediately bring jobs to those districts. i'm looking at your district, for example, according to transportation for america, using data from the department of transportation, you've got 182 bridges in your district that are structurally deficient. isn't this a reasonable argument to be made that there's work to be done? >> chris, when they voted for the first stimulus and passed it without my vote, by the way, supposedly there was going to be all this infrastructure money in there and our road builders and our county mayors were left saying, where's the jobs? where's the money that was going to be here? i'm one of those members that

for years has supported removing the 10% enhancement set aside that was in the transportation bills and putting that toward our roads and bridges. and letting state governments make those decisions. i think that one of the big problems you've got here is a credibility problem. people don't think the infrastructure money would be in a stimulus. they didn't see it the first time, they don't think they're going to see it this time. >> i'm with you, congresswoman. we disagree sometimes, but i'm completely with you. i want to see real job building, really shovel-ready projects, and we've got the evidence they exist out there. we get it through d.o.t., we're trying to get a message across, and it's not partisan, there's real jobs to be done. we're running at the bottom of the screen, the 95 bridges below that are deficient in speaker boehner's own district, as described by d.o.t. as structurally deficient. they include three bridges along carry 50,000 cars and trucks every day, mr. speaker. your congressman as well as

speaker, and those bridges in your district need repair. throughout this segment, at the bottom of the screen, we're going to be listing those 95 bridges in need of being fixed in mr. boehner's own district. let me go to congressman ryan. your thoughts about this. i agree with congresswoman blackburn. i thought that first stimulus bill had too many tax cuts and interstate stuff and aid to states and localities, probably stuff for the unions, but i didn't see anything in there for the construction trades in building roads and not enough in there. your thoughts? >> well, let's go back and remember why we had to put $200 billion to $300 billion worth of tax cuts in there. we were trying to get republican votes. and we didn't get one out of the house. we only got one in the senate in order to help it pass, and there was $300 billion that were basically taken out of what could have went into infrastructure projects, and really put people back to work. but the president wanted to get republicans on board. that was their idea. as far as the states go, you know, we needed to plug that hole. ohio at that point had an $8 billion hole that needed to be plugged.

if it wasn't plugged, we'd have laid off thousands of workers there. so i agree that the stimulus wasn't big enough to begin with, but here now we have an opportunity to rectify the problem and pump money in, and once again we're getting resistance from the republicans. >> oh, chris, i just need to -- listen, you're not going to get jobs by passing stimulus bills. there are no bills -- >> yes, you are. >> -- that are going to do this. you know, budgets are about priorities, and what you need to do is say, it is going to be a priority to repair infrastructure. that wasn't done, and people don't think it will be there again. they don't want to see tax increases. we can't afford tax increases. >> no one is talking about tax increases. >> they don't want to see tax reductions. individuals want to keep more of their money in their pockets. americans know that two wrongs never make a right and passing another stimulus bill isn't going to make the first one right. it is the wrong recipe for getting americans back to work. let's talk about putting a

moratorium on regulations for a year. let's talk about getting the epa off of individual's private land. let's talk about putting people in factories back to work by rolling back these epa regulations. there's plenty that could be done there. >> but you know, congresswoman, let me just throw out this. we're living basically under the tax policies of george w. bush. you all passed that big tax cut, still in effect. if the economy is in terrible shape right now, isn't president bush responsible? it's your tax structure. it's not president obama's tax structure. he said he doesn't like this tax structure. it's yours. and this is your economy. why do you keep blaming it on obama when he wasn't been able to change the tax policy? >> i think it's amazing that you continue to blame it on george bush. >> no, because it's your tax policy. >> i think it's so important -- >> didn't you hear what i said? i'm not blaming it on him. i'm blaming it on the tax policy that he left behind. >> and i think it's important for us to have a flatter, fairer, simpler tax code.

>> why didn't bush do it? >> i am for reducing taxes. listen. listen. i am one of those that believe if 10% is good enough for god on sunday, it should be good enough for the government on monday. >> let me ask you both. i want to start with congressman ryan. whose tax structure are we operating under in this country, bush's or obama's? i thought it was bush's. obama hasn't been able to change it. >> no doubt. it got passed at the end of last year. we're living under the george bush economy, from the regulations to the tax structure, and now just to respond in a bit, they are pulling money out of the economy when we need money to be in the economy. we have high unemployment. we need investments into these projects. and it's not going to happen by us cutting all kinds of spending in the short term. of course, we've got to balance the budget in the long term. but right now, we need the united states federal government to push projects like the ones you were talking about, ones all over the country, to directly hire people. get money into their pockets.

they will go out and spend. it's not about regulations or anything else. this is about the average american citizen in youngstown, ohio -- marcia, the average american citizen like the ones in youngstown, ohio, have had wages stagnant for 30 years. they don't have any money in their pockets. >> average americans, individuals in my district, my neighbors, my friends, those i go to church with on sunday will tell you it is not the government's job to create jobs. that is the private sector's job. the government should create the environment for jobs growth to take place. >> with all due respect -- >> and what the private sector wants to do is to get government off their back and out of their pocketbook. they want to be able to create jobs, and they want to have research and development here. they want to manufacture products here, and right now -- >> well, they're not doing it. >> can i get back to where i started. is it the government's responsibility or the private sector's responsibility to fix our bridges that are below safety code. congresswoman? the government, certainly, has a priority there.

but let's let our states take the lead. that's what we do in tennessee, where we have no bonded indebtedness on our roads. we pay -- >> apparently the state of tennessee is deficient, because you've got 182 bridges in your district, congresswoman, below code. >> i said do away with that 10% set-aside on enhancement money. >> congressman ryan's got 85 in his district. these jobs are not getting done. the money should be spent to keep our bridges safe, some people think, others don't, but i think you're with fixing the bridges. congresswoman, thanks for coming on, congresswoman marsha blackburn who believes in infrastructure spending, and congressman tim ryan that also does. >> coming up next, what is it about rick perry that shot him to the top of the republican field? we'll talk to ad guru donny deutsch, who has a strong feeling about why this guy is kicking butt in the republican party and while they're all coming after him and not coming after romney because he's way down in second place now. this has "hardball," only on msnbc. ♪

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two pieces of election news, in massachusetts, consumer advocate elizabeth warren will announce tomorrow morning she's running against senator scott brown. she's a democrat running against republican brown. warren was tapped by president obama to start a new consumer protection agency, but she was rejected by republicans for the job. and in new jersey, a federal appeals court ruled that nine-time olympic gold medallist karl lewis should be unavowed. good for him. he's running for state senate as a democrat. he was bounced off the ballot by the state's lieutenant governor sparking a lengthy legal fight. we'll be right back. he's going to win that race, i hope.

welcome back to "hardball." a clear sign he's the one to beat. rick perry took most of the heat in last night's debate in tampa. he might not have won every exchange. he showed republican voters how the guy rolls. let's listen. >> it has been called a ponzi scheme by many people long before me, but no one has had the courage to stand up and say here is how we're going to reform it. >> all right, governor perry. you were dealt four aces. >> i was going to see, mitt, were you doing pretty good until you got to talking poker. he had $800 billion worth of stimulus in the first round of stimulus. it created zero jobs. if you're saying that i can be bought for $5,000, i'm offended. >> i don't know what his price is. this morning, advertising executive donny deutsch. he was suggesting i'm more expensive than that. is this what appeals to republican voters? donny, i was impressed listening

to you this morning on "morning show." describe what you think the personality fit is of rick perry and why it's good for the rs this time or any time. >> let's look at the last two republicans what i'll call in a soulful way connected to the party. ronald reagan and george w. before he kind of fell off a cliff. both those guys have that quality of this arrogance, i'm right, you're wrong, i'm ready for a fight. even that kind of smirky quality. if you watch perry last night, whenever, for instance, anybody was going after him, he had this kind of like smirk like, what are you talking about? i'm right, and if you look at a persona of a party. if we were going to describe the republican party as a person, let's think about it's wall street, it's the tea party. it's we'd rather fight than switch. look at the congress. we're not negotiating. that's what republicans respond to. you know, we can decipher this thing about issue, issue, issue. it's an overall persona, and i don't care what this guy says. he smells of it and, you know, they laughed at reagan also. they said he's not going to stand the test, oh he's a

buffoon. he had the arrogant pugnaciousness that the republicans, they just eat it up. >> and they love cloth-coat republicans. >> yeah. >> don't like mink coat republicans. here's ronald reagan showing it when the occasion called for it. let's watch reagan in action. >> is this on? >> yes. >> mr. green, you asked me -- i am paying for this microphone, mr. green. you know, i wasn't going to say this at all, but i can't help it. there you go again. they are in violation of the law, and if they do not report for work within 48 hours, they have forfeited their jobs and will be terminated. there are cities in michigan -- oh, shut up. [ cheers and applause ] >> you know, firing those air traffic controllers, i'm pro union, was what sent the word to

moscow this guy was real. >> yeah. >> i absolutely know that as a fact. it got over there. they said, he has steel in his spine, look out. i think when i met reagan one time, i was working for speaker o'neill and weren't exactly in friendly territory. i felt i was meeting jimmy cagney, not jimmy stewart. i think that jimmy cagney, don't touch the gutter, little tough guy from the street, you've got it. it's what people like in the fighter they got on their side. >> if you look at opening of the debate last night when they paraded the seven dwarves and the candidates come out. perry's body -- literally his chest is stuck out. he's like this. he's ready for a fight. i just think republicans, they don't -- the mitt romney, doesn't matter what he says. romney did a great job last night. romney tries to fight, it's like when obama tries to fight. it's not who he is. once again, who is the one republican president of the last several decades that didn't make a deep connection with the party? it was bush sr. because he did not have that quality. jr. did. >> i think democrats would like to see some fighting quality,

too, and jack kennedy had it. anyway, thank you. harry truman had it and roosevelt had it. >> and bill clinton had it. >> yes, he did. thank you so much, donny deutsch. you know what you're talking about. >> appreciate it. when we return -- by the way, who was the actor who said knock this off my shoulder, the battery? >> robert stack. >> robert conrad. thank you. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] sitting. waiting. hoping. that's a recipe for failed investing. open an e-trade account and open doors, seize opportunities, take action with some of the most powerful yet easy-to-use trading tools on the planet all built to help you maximize the potential of every dollar you invest. successful investing isn't done by throwing ideas against the wall and hoping. it's done by lowering your costs and raising your expectations by using unbiased research and powerful screeners to build a diversified portfolio with stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and every etf sold.

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"let me finish" tonight with this. the fight for the republican presidential nomination has begun to look like those old movie scenes in "a tale of two cities." it's the french revolution where every week the angry crowd calls for the beheading of yet another mistrusted leader. consider the reign of terror these past months. remember how donald trump led the polls a few months back by spreading the word that the president of the united states wasn't even born here? then it was tim pawlenty was going to be the one who found common ground for the tea party and the mainstream. both gone. the revolutionaries grow in fury and the hunt continues for traders in their midst. yesterday's leader is today's suspect. governor perry is now the one being surrounded and questioned. did he give girls shot to stop them from getting cancer? did he say a bigger, higher wall with mexico wasn't the solution? treasonous, sparks one of his accusers. is everyone right enough? is everyone right enough to be safe in this angry crowd? is anyone secure if the charge is not sufficiently right or if he lacks the stuff to throw