at once. innovations like these are extending our reach so you can extend yours. and now, even at 30,000 feet you can still touch the ground. time for one quick e-mail, rob. what are they saying? >> chad writes, i'm chain smoking, pulling my hair out. >> that's it? >> that's it. >> maybe it's better we don't have the reason he's doing that. chad, i'm glad you're watching even if it's -- whatever haunts you. "morning joe" starts right now.

i'm going to do this. i'm going to run for the united states senate. and the reason is straightforward. middle class families have been chipped out, squeezed, and hammered for a generation now. and i don't think washington gets it. >> oh, gosh. i love her. this is so exciting. >> great. great. >> i'm not ready. so keep that shot up. good morning, everybody. it's wednesday, september 14th, welcome to "morning joe." >> with us onset is senior political analyst mark halpern, and the editor for "new york" magazine, john hyle. john, you were the heartbeat of new york city. what happened? >> well, the marxist sect. >> and he does live in brooklyn. >> of new york city. what happened out on long island last night? this special election.

>> well, the republicans took a seat that the democrats have held since 1922, i believe. in a race that republicans attempted very vigorously to nationalize and turn into a referendum on barack obama. a very weak democratic candidate lost, but republicans, i think, will claim with some justification that this is a canary in a coal mine. >> republicans lost new york 26 last year, so the same thing. >> exactly right. >> is it the same thing or different? >> well, i think -- look, start with the fact that all of these off-year elections, special elections have limited predictive value just in general, but to the extent that democrats claim that there was justification last year that their candidate had run very strongly against republican proposals on medicare, he had tried to nationalize that election, and there was evidence in the polling that showed that had been effective. >> that works. >> republicans this year will claim. republicans campaigned as much

against barack obama as they did against the democrat in this case. and republicans, i think have some ground to stand on when they say -- and there's a lot of anecdotal evidence out there from reporters talking to people, relatively conservative -- for the democratic district, a relatively conservative district, but there were -- >> listen, it is a democrat -- >> it is a democrat -- nothing like as liberal as manhattan. it's not the manhattan liberals you think of. but, as i said, they campaigned very strongly against obama. particularly they made obama's positions on israel an issue, and there's also very strongly campaigned against -- supported the gay marriage situation. >> there's a very strong, as you rightly bring up, a very strong orthodox jewish population in this district. >> yes. >> that usually votes democratic. i've suspected for a long time barack obama is in really big trouble in the state of florida.

come 2012, i don't think that race is going to be a nail biter with regard to who he runs up against. but mark halpern, this is what we need to sort out. i remember the republicans losing the seat, they should have won the special election. >> i think 12. >> i kept saying if they can't win that seat -- >> you did. >> when they only have to focus on one seat one day, i think they should have won. how are they going to win a working majority? >> so let's take those results, compare them to what happened last night. two things that can be -- i don't want people to get the wrong impression, i think it's predictive. i think this is horrific news for barack obama based on everything i've seen over the past 15 years. but that said, i thought pennsylvania '12 is bad news for republicans.

>> you can sometimes see the national media overstating the implications of a local race. i don't think there are many elements here that suggest it's overstatement. this is nationalized, it's overwhelmingly democratic district, and the voters there clearly wanted to send a message. it's anecdotal, but there's also a fair amount of polling in this race. they're unhappy about the president's policies. they wanted to send a message to the democratic party. that's a real problem. >> obviously had a different republican candidates cutting each other up, not so, though, in the old seat. again, you never know. i do know this, 1994 was predicted by a lot of special elections and off-year elections in 1993. we'll see what happens. >> and we have a couple of other stories that will play into that narrative, as well. but first of all, here's what happened last night.

bob turner, a retired cable tv executive from queens defeated david weprin 54% to 46%. now, stopping just short of claiming victory, turner spoke to his supporters last night. >> from the very beginning, this has been a grass roots campaign. it is people like me who got off their couch and said i'm as mad as hell and i'm not going to take it anymore. this country has been plagued by apathy and indifference to the political process. and i think we're all waking up. and i'm more than thrilled to help lead the charge. >> in a statement after the election, rnc chairman said "tonight's election proves yet again that president obama is failing our country. even in the heart of new york city, in a traditionally liberal district, voters have turned on the president and his

congressional allies. not only are the president's policies not working, but his nonstop campaigning is no longer winning over voters." and another troubling sign for president obama is the growing shift in support from independent voters. a research institute poll conducted last week shows only 29% of independents support the president in new york, democrat's leading ninth district. also scored another victory in nevada last night as mark armaday coasted to victory. >> and there analysts are saying this morning that the base just didn't show up in areas around reno. and this is, again -- >> that's exactly -- >> a lot of people will say, well, gee, democrats will never vote for mitt romney just like they would say, gee, republicans will never vote for a democrat to make nancy pelosi speaker in

2006. no, they don't. they just stay home. the spin, though, willie geist, coming out of the democratic national committee was not inspiring. >> it was not inspiring. we said this is a referendum from republicans, referendum on the president. the other side the spin from the head of the dnc was that people who didn't like the president to begin with decided to come out tonight. this is not predictive of anything nationally, this is an isolated incident, and you wonder as a political strategy, why not if you're a democrat make this about anthony weiner? say the voters were disgusted -- if you call it throwing him under the bus, do so. their defense this morning looks a little bit weak. >> i think -- i think actually that, for the snapshot. if the election were to be held today, i think mitt romney beat barack obama.

but it's not being held today. when we had the last special election. was it wisconsin? when paul ryan's medicare plan was used against the republicans. >> new york 26. >> this time too. >> may. >> so in new york 26 on that day, i think barack obama would've won because medicare was breaking their way. i think things get grimmer by the day. and you show the independent poll, it's not the independence if i'm president obama that concerns me. it's not the republicans, it's not the special election. it is the grumbling from my own democratic party. >> yeah. >> and the grumbling from the base and capitol hill. this is fairly unprecedented. i still have republicans coming to me in 2006 and 2008 attacking me for going after george w. bush saying how dare you, he's doing a great job, and it's those democrats. i got abused, actually, from '05 to '08.

and we all saw, there were still republican loyalists that believed in the cause of what george w. bush was doing. even if it was 29%, you just don't find those democrats out there today. behind closed doors, anywhere, the president has no defenders outside the white house. at least i've come across. is that just me? >> you see it in the polling too. because really for the first two years of the administration, people said the base is upset, they don't like barack obama. and in fact, what was going on was liberal bloggers complained about the president. but the actual base was just as enthusiastic. i think he was enormously popular -- >> and we keep hearing he's got the democrats with him. but that has changed. and the last round of national polling was for the first time the actual democratic base, not the left blogisphere. hispanic voters, really importantly, young voters, liberal voters, you started to see erosion in september. and now the thing that previously was most atmospheric

but not real is starting to take hold. that there is not a widespread turning against, but all barack obama has to lose is to have 10% or 15% of his base stay home next november. and that is a real problem because we know one thing that republican turnout next november is going to be sky high. there's so much antipathy for the president. the republican base is going to turn out like crazy. the republican neepresident nee democratic base to turn out. >> mark, we saw this after katrina. the republican base just fled. it was really an underreported story. but post-katrina, that's when the republican base said, i've had it with this guy. this guy's incompetent. still had some intense people defending him, but that's when the erosion really broke post-katrina. >> one way to look at the two results last night is the three voter groups. republicans really energized to

turn out against the president. independents do not think the president' doing a good job in these two districts, and democrats, not particularly energized. what are the prospects that the president can change the middle too? independents and the democrats, difficult particularly given some of the statistics, which we saw yesterday about poverty. things are grim, and the president has to figure out an argument to make to energize his base and to get independents back with it. >> and that's really one of the big headlines this morning, front page of the "new york times" and other papers, as well. the president obviously is continuing his jobs bill push in north carolina today. but there is a stunning snapshot of the u.s. economy that could play into the narrative that we're all talking about here. the latest data from the census bureau says the number of americans falling into poverty continues to grow. and here's what the bureau has found. the poverty rate now stands at 15.1%. that's the highest level since

1993. more than 46 million people now live below the poverty line. that's the highest number in the survey's history. some 22% of u.s. children are affected while median income, which totals just under $50,000 is at a 15-year low. the figures for the year 2010, the most recent data available marked the third straight year of a rise in the poverty rate. the report also shows that minorities were hit the hardest with african-americans experiencing the highest poverty rate of 27% and hispanics close behind at 26%. now, those statistics add to the pressure on the white house and congress to reach a compromise on a plan to put americans back to work. the president visits raleigh, durham today to sell his jobs plan, the third jobs-related event in 15 days. and the president once again urged washington to put politics

aside and pass his bill. >> yesterday, there were some republicans quoted in washington saying that even if they agree with the proposals of the american jobs act, they shouldn't pass it because it would give me a win. that's the kind of game plan we've gotten used to in washington. think about that. they've supported this stuff in the past, but they're thinking maybe they don't do it this time because obama's promoting it. give me a win. this isn't about giving me a win. this isn't about giving democrats or republicans a win, it's about giving the american people a win. >> you know, willie, we've been talking about this for several years now. the hollowing out of the middle class. union membership, private union membership down to 7%, used to be 30%, 35%, manufacturing jobs going overseas. i mean, and now we see poverty -- we see poverty rising. it seems like there's a great

hollowing out of america's middle class. >> it's hard to find good news when you look inside these numbers. this report yesterday was stunning. we can talk about it here for three hours. talk about children, 40% of african-american children living below the poverty line. and by the way, you talk about the poverty line, it's $22,000 a year for a family of four. now, think if you even raise that number to $50,000, you'll get millions of more people. that's almost impossible to live on. so something's got to give here, and it's unclear if in the president's jobs plan there's anything that goes to that. to poverty and to strengthening the middle class. because that's really where the problems are in our economy right now. >> and this is really -- yesterday we talked about it with thomas friedman and with steve ratner. this is not just something you put on president obama or president bush or president clinton. this is something that starts going back to 1970, 1971, or as

jeffrey sachs said off camera yesterday, it goes back to 1978 when china opened up and globalization began. these are decade-long trends. and they're bad lines. we're not going to -- one jobs bill isn't going to do this. this is -- we've got a lot of work ahead of us. >> to willie's point, the jobs bill -- designed primarily to get people to work and try to reduce the unemployment rate. we have as you just said, joe, we have a wage problem in this country. stagnant wages is a problem that's bedevilled the country since the early 1970s. and even if you lower the unemployment rate, the number of people who maybe have jobs but are living subsistence level, and mid class seeing their wages flatten out for 25 years, that is a recipe for a sense of decline in the country. 4%, 5%, if wages are stagnant

broadly for most american families, they might be happy if they have jobs. the overall sense of prosperity has evaporated. one of the major problems, people see they're just running in place. even people with jobs feel they're on this treadmill and their family's not improving going forward. >> and you look at what we talked about again yesterday, mika. so many of these booms that we've seen economically. in the late 1990s, we all celebrated the fact that america had a great economy. in large part, it was a dot com boom. that went bust. and in 2000, nasdaq crashed and then in 2001 and 2002, you had enron and worldcom and then over the past decade, we lived off of second mortgages.

it seems like really since the early 1990s the united states hasn't had a real innovative push that could create jobs in this country. >> and globalization has hurt us more than it's helped us in a lot of these sectors. substantively, the big news of this is, again, as willie suggested, let's hope this gets people to focus on how painful this is for americans across the country. we need economic growth as the first step, but we need to make big structural changes. as a political matter, this opens up for the republican nominee for president, a chance to say this -- under this president, not just white people, but minorities in this country have really suffered. >> and you know what? i think that's going to -- that's going to play out badly if it continues as it is right now. for black unemployment where it is now, moi ninority unemployme that's a very bad narrative. >> it doesn't mean it's the president's fault. >> it doesn't -- >> in opening, rick perry's

announcement speech talked about this issue, talked about how african-americans and hispanic americans are hurting under this president, and that is an opening to get to his left rhetorically. it's a real danger for the president. >> it is, unless -- unless republicans are seen like they've just blocked everything. they'll ought to let him do what he's trying to do. because if it doesn't work, it'll be on him. but if they block everything, he may still have a chance, i think, because it looks like they've just obstructed progress. >> it goes very quickly back to this point we were talking about the base. this political dynamic, this is again another place where the african-american base, i mean -- their material prospects have not improved under the first act of the american president. that can't help barack obama politically. that part of his base feeling, okay. things have not gotten much better. >> he's still, though, in the mid-90s with that. >> but the question now -- >> come on, joe, as you pointed out not just his approval

rating -- do they turn out in record numbers as they did in 2008? he's going to need every one of those votes. ahead on "morning joe," former governor rick scott joins us, dexter filkins, and sam stein. >> wait a second, where does sam stein get that picture? >> he's angry. >> it's from a photo booth. >> yeah. up next, a look at our top stories out of washington and politico's playbook. but first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. good morning, everyone. if you enjoy warm, summer weather, appreciate today because this is it. after this, it looks like temperatures are going to dramatically go down and fall will arrive. we were hot yesterday, can you believe it was 107 in dallas, texas, yesterday? that was just ridiculous. the hottest it's ever been this late in the year in dallas. and on the big board, we had 70 days of 100 degrees plus in dallas. look at austin, vegas, oklahoma

city, san antonio, just ridiculous there in texas. but i want to focus your attention to beautiful fargo, north dakota this morning. it is 36 degrees. that is the cool air that's going to slide through the great lakes in new england in the days ahead. so appreciate this. this is probably the warmest day we're going to see in new england and in the mid-atlantic. maybe until next late spring or early summer. today in new york city, very nice and warm. tomorrow, rain, then cooler towards the weekend. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ woman ] jogging stroller. you've been stuck in the garage while i took refuge from the pollen that made me sneeze.

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[ technician ] are you busy? management just sent over these new technical manuals. they need you to translate them into portuguese. by tomorrow. [ male announcer ] ducati knows it's better for xerox to manage their global publications. so they can focus on building amazing bikes. with xerox, you're ready for real business. this time last night, president obama was unveiling his new jobs plan. more than half of that is tax cuts plus new spending on schools, roads, and bridges. >> tax cuts i understand, but we don't need the government building bridges and roads.

that was proven by reagan's secretary of transportation beau duke. he did not use paved roads and he sure as hell did not need bridges. >> all right. 25 past the hour, live look at capitol hill as the sun is just about to come up over washington. time now to take a look at the morning papers. we'll start with the "wall street journal." james murdoch's future is becoming increasingly clear in the wake of this summer's phone-hacking scandal. newscorp heir will appear before british parliament for the second time to prove what he knew about. >> yeah, he obviously went before parliament the first time and was contradicted. >> yeah. >> may not have been completely forthright. "usa today" with a follow-up. the cia is investigating whether the agency broke the law by helping the nypd build an

intelligence-gathering program to monitor potential terrorist activity. the government's top intelligence official is also saying that close relationship looks bad for both parties. all right. "new york times" "morning joe" guest, new fashion line for target sent the retail giant's website to a crashing halt as zig zag lovers everywhere leapt at the chance to buy the luxury designer's now affordable duds. demand was higher than on the busiest shopping day of the year, the friday after thanksgiving. >> willie, i must have been at the orphanage at the time -- >> yeah, they were great. their preferred title "morning joe" guest. that's how they're known. >> you know millie's our friend who is having a big show. >> today. >> yes, today. exactly. you look at me and you think,

what do you think when you look at me, willie? >> fashion icon. >> i am new york fashion week. i'll be missing that for a red sox game. so turning to the parade of papers, new jersey star ledger from snow mageddon to last month's hurricane. the new york metro area has seen every major weather event so far this year. for wells fargo, more ahead. a minnesota man raising awareness for diabetes by pushing a giant globe across the country. it comes as a new study by the chronic diabetes federation says the disease affects an estimated 366 million people worldwide with one person dying every seven seconds -- >> certainly affects our family. andrew has type i diabetes, and unfortunately the numbers keep expanding, because, mika, you don't talk about this. i think it's something you should really focus on. you're becoming more obese by the day.

you can't tell me -- a lot of people say even for type i that there's no connection. >> funny you bring that up. >> you really need to focus. >> i will. i'll try and bring it up more. >> you should eat oatmeal. >> nutrition is an important issue. you need to stop ignoring. >> i think it's actually the downfall of this country. >> now you jump onboard after i start talking. willie and i were snorting flak seeds backstage bringing our cholesterol down. >> is that what you call it? flak seed? flak seed is brown, not white. >> this is brown. so anyway, you -- now you're jumping on this bandwagon. willie and i have been talking about health for a long time. >> years. >> years, willie. by the way, speaking of health, i mean the red sox. >> good transition. >> the heart's beating again. >> they're fine. >> they're not fine. >> we're going to politico. >> game four this weekend --

>> scary. >> scored like 134 runs. >> you have to score under 134 runs if he's pitching for you. >> all this in a minute. save it. save it. >> 111th pitcher in baseball history to get 200 wins. not that i'm counting. >> i am reading the twitter feed. i retweeted that. >> let's go to politico. what are we looking at today? >> understand, you know who -- >> mike allen. hello, mike allen. hey, good morning, sunshine. >> oh, look at that. >> i love it. let me ask you quickly, mike, your take on last night's special election here in the queens, brooklyn, district of new york. >> well, it's a race that democrats never expected to be in trouble on and republicans never expected to take. over on 538, nate silver, the

numbers guy said this could spell dire results for senate democrats next year. >> what's the percentage? is it 42.8% now? that democrats -- >> it's an 8% gap. the front of the "new york post," wam bam, making it clear that everyone sees it as a referendum on the president. >> what do you think, mike? >> i think this is a sign of the fact that even in places where president obama assumed he was safe, thought he was safe, he has a lot of work to do. now, there are some local issues here. the jewish community unhappiness seems to be a factor. and nate silver also points out that the president underperformed here a little bit in '08. it was not one of his strongest districts. but the point is, the president can't count on anything. the base is not the base. the president has to work even on the people he should already automatically have let alone bring over this big middle. so the president has a lot of

work to do. that's why you're going to see him in north carolina, one of the big pick-up states in '08. he's having to start again, also having his convention there in charlotte. >> point out in that nevada district, the rest of the state, and that gop candidate had a huge lead all the way. tim pawlenty last night in d.c. mike allen, i understand for a retire the debt party. what is that, exactly? >> well, "morning joe" guest tim pawlenty -- >> we like him very much. yeah. >> he was back along with mrs. pawlenty, mary pawlenty. they had a number of congressional leaders, including speaker boehner, five senders, three house members came out, they brought checks, $5,000 checks from their leadership accounts. there's probably a couple hundred thousand dollars in debt that tim pawlenty has left, including for that famous dave's barbecue that he served at the iowa straw poll, which was yummy, but they paid the bill

for it. mitt romney will help him collect up the debt. but last night they got together. a lot of former staffers. so the campaign ended so abruptly, this is a way for people to say good-bye a little bit, collect some cash. and we're told that speaker boehner made a beeline for the brashetta. >> that is why we have politico. >> so, mike, is he still in debt? >> he is. and i expect you're going to see an event with governor romney and some of mitt romney's people where that was a way for them to show that they're going to help him. tim pawlenty doesn't have personal friends, he was worried about the debt, that's a big reason he pulled the plug. >> how much? >> hundreds of thousands. the thing that's tragic about it, the thing that's tragic about it is one of the few

things he said when he started this campaign internally to his staff was i do not want to end up in debt. and he was adamant about that. and it's been recorded that he did not know that he was in debt that he thought he was quitting to not go into debt and then he found out later that, actually, you are several hundred thousand dollars in debt. that's a big bummer. >> he's a good, solid, solid guy. and in the past, people would think we need good, solid guys. >> thank you, mike allen. almost tastes like one of jack's cereals. fiber one. uh, forgot jack's cereal. [ jack ] what's for breakfast? um... try the number one! [ jack ] yeah, this is pretty good. [ male announcer ] half a day's worth of fiber. fiber one. can make it from australia to a u.s. lab to a patient in time for surgery may seem like a trumped-up hollywood premise. ♪ but if you take away the dramatic score... take away the dizzying 360-degree camera move,

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all right. >> hold on a second. who told you that? mark haleprin, who told you this? >> a source close to -- >> from the horse's mouth. he couldn't name a song? >> no, all over it. >> he recited the lyrics? i am the walrus? >> i swear. >> rick perry is a beatles fan. >> well, actually we need -- no. >> is he really a beatles fan? >> no, he's not. >> totally is. >> wow. wow. >> he had some interesting comments on social security that we actually need to run later, talk about on a more substantive level.

>> well, if he's a beatles fan, you've got to cut him some slack. >> red sox. >> let's do some sports. we begin with -- >> you don't talk about the red sox while they're on an 87-game losing streak. >> no, now we're going to refocus. a former boston player, manny ramirez in a florida courtroom charged with a misdemeanor for allegedly hitting his wife during an argument in their home. he spent a night in jail before being released on $2,500 bond. now outside the courthouse, he was surrounded by reporters. things got a bit testy when they shoved their microphones into his car. watch this. >> that's my brother. >> give me my mike, please. >> he's an amazing guy.

>> give me my mike. >> you're going to get in trouble for doing that to us now, manny. you can't do that. >> seriously, you shove a microphone inside somebody's car and not let them -- i'm going to drive off. >> you know what that was? manny being manny. >> let's talk about the game, perhaps. red sox entering the game in a slump, dropped 9 of the last 11, including a sweep at the hands of the rays. boston tried to bounce back, and boy did they ever. in the fourth, back-to-back home runs by jacoby, one of two home runs. the red sox score 18 runs and 18 hits, and on the other side of the ball, wakefield, five earned runs. the second oldest pitcher to reach that milestone, he gets the champagne shower after the

game. and then a standing ovation from the crowd. the rays lost last night against baltimore. so they fall four behind the sox on the wild card. those teams have four games this weekend. >> wakefield is just the best of the best. >> great guy. supposed to be a great guy. he's 45, still getting it done. a milestone for rivera. the catcher gunned down ichiro, yankees won 3-2, mariano winning the all-time record. >> how does he rank in -- >> by far the best. >> best ever. best ever. so best reliever ever, best -- >> not best yankee. >> but best yankee reliever. but you've put him up there. willie remembered along with --

>> yeah. far and away, the best closer of all time. not just because of the overall record, but what he's done in the post season. 42 saves -- >> someone told me a story of how he blew a world series game. >> 2001. >> famously, and when he was flying back to new york, he just put on his earphones, listened to music and acted like nothing had happened. you have to have that mind set to be a closer. >> and he also doesn't have the craziness that you associate with some closers. he's been steady. >> win some, lose some. >> and he pitched, no one had ever thrown before, and still no hitters today -- >> he's been throwing it for 17 years and they still don't know how they got it, one pitch.

the hottest pitcher in baseball last night going for the hottest team, the tigers' justin verlander striking out six and allowing no runs. verlander won his last 11 starts dating back to july 21st. they won 11 in a row for the tigers, now 12 1/2 games up on the light side. >> probably more happy about that than the special election. >> a lot of people say for all of the talk about the yankees and the red sox, watch for the tigers at the world series. >> wow. coming up, governor rick scott of florida will join us here onset, and up next, the opinion pages. you're watching "morning joe" approved by starbucks.

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for rick to say you can't secure the border is a treasonous comment. >> he provided instate tuition for illegal immigrants, maybe that was an attempt to attract the illegal vote -- >> governor perry pointed out in his view that social security is unconstitutional. >> i don't want to offend the governor because he might raise my taxes or something. >> the drug company gave thousands of dollars in political donations to the governor. and this is just flat out wrong. >> and perry kept grinning and scribbling away on his pad. what is he writing, anyway? let's take a look at that -- oh. hmm. >> 46 past the hour. time now, for the must-read opinion pages. i know i read one of hers earlier -- >> stay away from morning dove,

she's morning dove. >> does anyone disagree with that? "new york times." >> what she writing about? >> she's writing about jackie kennedy. >> really? >> yeah. >> jackie talked a lot about -- >> about everybody. about everybody. >> okay. >> opinionated lady. >> that might have been like nixon's secretary pressing the record button on my foot. it should have been 18 minutes of tape recorded over these jackie tapes. >> they didn't have buchanan. that was their problem. >> jackie, burn the tapes! go ahead. >> jacqueline kennedy said she considered her main job to be dus tracting and soothing her husband. she did not see herself as an eleanor roosevelt wanting to pester him about some pressing political matter. i remember i said it in an interview once, she recalled, where do you get your opinions? and i said, i get all my opinions from my husband, which

is true. how could i have any political opinions, you know? his were going to be the best. and i could never conceive of not voting for whoever my husband was for. but the young mrs. kennedy underestimated herself in those dark days long ago. she had plenty of opinions of her own. tart and tantalizing. >> wow. >> so, is that it? is that all you read? >> that's all i got. i'm not going into the things she said. >> willie said she said pretty shocking things about -- >> i think we ought to -- >> what did she say? >> martin luther king. called him a phony. >> all right. >> you go down the list. lbj -- >> out of context. >> what did she say about lady bird? >> it's not worth repeating here. go on the interweb. some unkind things said about a lot of people. why didn't he record over it?

come on, burn the tapes. >> does anyone here -- >> no. he's saying move on. move on. >> not to us, he's not. not a fan of history. >> i guess he's not a fan of history. maybe he wants to protect k camelot. what was the most shocking thing? >> no, i want to move on. >> what's the most shocking thing in these tapes? >> most shocking thing? the fact that they exist at all that you're suggesting. i don't think any of the opinions she expressed are that shocking. shocking that she said them -- >> and that they were recorded. >> can we talk about rick perry? >> she was a woman of discernment. >> fine, though. this whole segment's falling apart. >> remember we were talking yesterday about -- >> well, i asked you what she said about lady bird and you declined to discuss it. >> i'd rather not discuss it. >> you wonder why the segment's fallen -- >> we were hoping. >> you were trying to get all us in trouble. >> i would never do that.

>> you want to have this conversation, lead the way. >> i would never do that. why don't we read thomas friedman? >> i would love to! >> what does he say about jackie? >> no, you're going to hate this. is it weird enough yet? that's the title. we need revenue to balance the budget. we need sustainable, clean-tech jobs. we need less dependence on mideast oil. and we need to take steps to mitigate climate change just in case governor perry is wrong. the easiest way to do all of this at once is the gasoline tax or price on carbon. would you rather cut social security or medicare to pay a little more per gallon of gas and make the country stronger, safer, and healthier? it still amazes me that our politicians have the courage to send our politicians to war but not to ask the public that question. >> mika, what do you think of thomas friedman? >> i think it's fabulous. and i'm sorry, i don't know if it's what we absolutely need, but we need to pay for the

things we engage in, especially if we send our young men and women out to war, we don't cut taxes taxes, we think of a way to pay for it. >> if the president proposed the gas tax now -- >> he would lose. no, i agree. we needed it a long time ago. >> how does that work with swing voters? >> not very well. but, look, i do think that we all say around this table that climate change is a real problem and cap and trade, which was an attempt to try to deal with that problem has been roundly rejected, politically off the table. at some point this is a real problem we need to deal with. i think friedman -- >> no, i'm sorry -- >> putting a price on carbon is, in fact, going to be necessary if you actually take climate change seriously, which at some point, someone's going to have to do it. something like this to get a grip on this problem. >> no, we don't. we only deal with things when there's catastrophe proportions. >> do you think i could fit in a

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oh, is it time? >> it's time. >> something's going to be good

here. >> it's a quick news you can't use. stephen colbert bringing news to the table about the ron paul for president campaign. capturing, in fact, one supporter, one foot soldier in the ron paul revolution on the national geographic channel. watch this. >> a big endorsement came in a passionate heartland conservative who announced his support on national geographic's "frontier force." >> read the constitution, all right? the constitution is your right. don't go -- the constitution. you guys -- the constitution. you guys took this vote. why can't you guys just come to me that this is my constitution right. what's the first amendment? what's the first amendment? what's the first amendment? >> stand right where you're at. >> you don't even know! >> just keep going.

>> the constitution! yeah, constitution. read it and live by it. >> have a seat in the back of the car. have a seat. >> ron paul 2012. >> yes! ron paul! >> colbert was playing a clip from national geographic about the frontier force and that guy's arrested for a dui. ron paul 2012. >> right before he past out. >> well, yeah. not good. >> not a representative, we should point out. coming up next -- re, sam? i want to see the >> watch this. >> what is he on "law and order?" there he is. >> we'll be right back with that

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>> oh, i was sure ceelo was going to turn around on that one. still, though, the singing of our national anthem did give the candidates to show the audience that they meant -- oh, wow! wow! look at rick perry, man, that's not a candidate, that is a patriotic collectible from the franklin mint. boom. >> all right. welcome back to "morning joe." we've got a cool shot of new york city. and joining us from -- >> rick perry, by the way, a beatles fan, i don't believe it. i think he's making it up. >> real deal. >> don't ever have a beatles quiz with joe. ask him anything. go ahead, ask him anything about the beatles. >> on the cover of abbey road left to right. >> come on, you insult me.

>> ask a question. >> think about it right now. >> seriously, no. let's have something more serious. what does the scene on abbey road depict? >> somebody who has no shoes on. >> what does it depict? >> the funeral. >> john the preacher and george as the undertaker -- >> what's the last line of rocky raccoon? >> no, no -- >> the young rockies revival. >> and by the way, the license plate on the volkswagen. >> i still haven't heard the order from left to right. >> if he was still alive. >> of course i know the order from left to right. i'm not going to be insulted. i'm not going to be insulted. >> joining us from washington, political writer for the "huffington post." oh, hello, sam. you cute thing. all right.

>> let's look at that. >> no. >> let's look at that picture. what's going on here? >> we're sorry. >> he took it of himself. had went like this. >> what is this, sam? >> what did i do to the people in your photo department? i don't understand this. >> oh, wait, we did this? >> yes. >> i thought you went and had somebody to take that shot of you. >> no. >> yes. we are really -- >> sorry, sam. okay. >> so let's move on then. what about new york nine last night? what's your take up there? do you nationalize it? what does it mean? >> well, you nationalize it to a certain extent. and you can read any poll numbers and it shows the president is immensely unpopular among people who he should be popular with. i think he won the district by 55% in 2008. right now, his popularity in the district, favorability is under 40. that's not a good sign for obama. and then you have to understand his district is likely to be

gone in 14 months when redistricting happens. democrats have won a series of special elections prior to that. and we've always sort of down played the significance of the republican party. you have to take both sides of the coin here. but if i was the president and look at these numbers -- he couldn't even step in to campaign for the candidates. so things aren't good in the enthusiasm. >> how do you compare to what happened in new york 26? >> these are again, apples and oranges. in some races, in new york-26, you didn't have the legacy of anthony weiner, i guess. and, you know, special elections each create their own institutional challenges. what i would say is the key take away here is voter turnout and how low it was. and if you're sitting in the white house or in the dnc and you're looking at these numbers, you know, you have to wonder at what point do we have to get people excited again to vote democratic? especially independent voters who clearly were enamored by

obama in 2008 and seem to be fleeing him right now. >> in terms of these republican upset victories last night, how much do the front page headlines about the poverty levels and more and more americans living in poverty have to do with this? the economy as a whole? >> well, there's no question. and there's new polling out today the degree to which for president obama is so far under water on his handling of the economy in general. the democratic base is not happy with it. the independent voters in particular, something like 65% or so now are saying the president's handling the economy is bad. i think the interesting thing about the new york race, you're going to hear a lot of discussion in the next two days about two issues. one of which is the issue of israel where president obama's approval rating with jewish voters is down 20% nationally from the 78% he won in 2008. and this is a very jewish district. this is an orthodox jewish candidate on the democratic side. a lot of jewish discontent with the president. and the second will be the issue

of gay marriage where the democratic candidate was for gay marriage and there was a lot of discontent, again, particularly among conservative and moderate jews about the fact he had supported gay marriage. there's a lot of polling suggests that hurt him in that district. there's a lot of discussion of those two issues. israel and gay marriage coming out of this. >> and you can talk, of course, about poverty. that's obviously one sign of how sick this economy is, mika. also, though, on the front of the "wall street journal" today, the fact that american household income slides to 1996 levels. it is the third year in a row that median household income has gone down. that is just something that doesn't happen in the united states of america. it's happened now. and again, i'm not saying this to try the to give anybody a free pass just like i -- i said you couldn't blame everything on george w. bush. but anybody out there trying to blame what's going on right now,

these long-term trends on one president, one party, they are seriously, i will go back to my lawn equipment statement that these are people that you would not want to trust with basic lawn equipment. these are trends that have been with us since 1970, 1971, but we do need a leader that can get us out of it. >> i agree with that. i think that's a fair assessment. i think obviously everyone has their own -- >> we need a new lead. we need -- we need a new leader. is it elizabeth warren? >> i love her. >> i think she's cool. >> would you follow her to the promise land? >> would you follow her to the edge of the cliff and jump over it? >> this broke late yesterday. it's likely to be one of the most closely watched non-presidential races of 2012. consumer advocate elizabeth warren officially declaring her candidacy for senate in massachusetts today.

>> i'm going to do this. i'm going to run for the united states senate. and the reason is straightforward. middle class families have been chipped out, hacked at, squeezed, and hammered for a generation now. and i don't think washington gets it. >> he's really good. >> we'll see what happens. hey, way to go. >> nice going. >> beautiful. >> smoothest transition, seriously. you talk about the beatles. like the backside of abbey road, seamlessly flows from one thing to the other. >> yeah. >> warren, of course -- >> and right in through the bathroom window. >> looking to unseat scott brown who won the seat in a special election after the death of long-time democratic senator ted kennedy. warren's camp said she will bypass the traditional campaign kickoff of a stump speech for supporters, and instead opting for a series of meet and greets throughout the state.

and i think she's going to be -- i think she's a very effective communicator. >> sam stein, what do you think? >> if you talk to any massachusetts democrat, they think she represents the best chance. and part of it is she's had the virtue of being in washington without the taint of washington. and also she can fund raise. she's one of the rare people who can get money from the base and still is beloved by national democratic strategists because they think she represents the best chance to take out scott brown. the question is, how much can she get her name i.d. out there? right now she's actually still not that well known across the state. but she polled about 9 percentage points behind brown. that's going to be a big keeper and that's why she's not doing a big stump speech, but rather meeting voters and ingratiating herself that way. she recognizes the big obstacle is name recognition. >> scott brown, heck of a campaigner. ran a remarkable campaign before, but that was in the

special election in january. this is going to be far different in '12. but mark haleprin -- and by the way, obviously a lot more democrats are going to come out. scott brown is going to have a difficult time regardless of how strong of a candidate he's going to be. but you say elizabeth warren has something going against her in the state -- >> i think she's got three things she's got to deal with. one is, she's in a big primary. she's not the nominee. and there are a lot of democrats who want this seat. two, massachusetts voters have not looked favorably on women candidates. lots of prominent women -- >> i've heard that, massachusetts voters do not elect women statewide usually? >> they did not. and in races they could have won, should've won, including the race against scott brown. finally, she is a first-time candidate. and as skilled as she is at communicating on tv, being a candidate is a different thing. and going up against someone like scott brown. the thing the democrats have on their side is you do not want to run statewide in massachusetts

as a republican on an election year. >> rick perry is the nominee. >> right. >> i'm telling you, that willie geist, that will get some democrats out in massachusetts. >> and, you know, when bill wells ran against john kerry for the senate in a presidential year, the gap between the top of the ticket was too big. and if obama wins massachusetts by 20, it's hard for scott brown to win that election. not impossible, but hard. >> he's proving to be more popular than a lot thought he would have been when he was elected. what does she go after him on his record? what are his weaknesses? >> well, she says he's a republican -- >> he's a republican. >> he's a republican. >> who would vote to make mitch mcconnell the majority leader. and i'm sure medicare, medicaid. >> wall street. >> there you go. >> personality is a big thing in massachusetts politics. and scott brown's personality,

we know voters like it there. as, again, as a woman in massachusetts, she's going to have to have her personality be part of this. and she's not done that before. >> she's got a personality that stands out. she's a great story, daughter of a janitor who grew up and went to harvard. and then getting basically run out by the republicans, i think that could touch a nerve in massachusetts. >> by the way, unlike martha coakley, elizabeth warren will have no problem standing outside the park -- >> i agree. >> the first point mark made is right, she's going to face a seven-way primary, at least. there are a ton of democrats that will run. and that doesn't happen until september of next year. >> also the strong democrats -- >> well, there's still a chance that duvall patrick might get into that race. even if that doesn't happen, my point is she'll have to fight a relatively rough contested

primary. and one thing people like about elizabeth warren right now, she's seen as being above politics. she's a compelling figure because she's not been down in the muck of -- and then getting into the muck of it intraparty primary, she's going to look a lot more scuffed up come september. she'll have to go through a lot. and when she comes out, she's only got a month and a half to get it together to run against scott brown. it's not an easy path by any means. >> sam, what do you think? >> well, two things. the primary is going to present some challenges. it's not that bad as we're making it out to seem. he was considered possibly a senate candidate. also, with respect to governor patrick, two former patrick aides are informally advising elizabeth warren right now. almost if you read the tea leaves, it says if she has the blessing of the main figures there. and the reason is, they look at her and think, wow, here's someone who can touch the grass roots, the base, the people who vote, the people who donate

online. she can raise an obscene amount of money online. and that's a huge attribute to have. and it would have been awkward if she had to go to the usual wall street sources because she's been spending the past three years going after -- >> not only that -- >> a waste of time. >> their checks would've recoiled. so now she doesn't need that. so, yes, she has -- her issues going forward are can she sort of pick up the campaigning -- the issue of campaigning? because she's very charismatic and good on television, but it does take another thing to campaign. and secondly, can she -- secondly, can she actually get her name out there? and third, will she remember the lineup of the boston red sox? >> i have a feeling she will. i think she's going to be great. i think everything you say that could work against her, actually, could play into her favor if the timing is right. and remember, this is a woman who has dedicated her life and

especially the past few years, which has been a pretty gruelling process in washington fighting for people who are in the situation they're in and getting closer to the poverty line because of the way wall street and banks were treating them. she's been on the front lines of this. and i think it will resinate. >> she has a great message to tell, a great story to tell. the hollowing out of the middle class, her fight against wall street. the fact that while america's getting poor by the year, poverty rates are rising, the fact that wages are stagnant for the third year in a row even going down. the fact we've gone back 15 years in wages while wall street is enjoying record profits, that is a great message in massachusetts and any state. and it's not just the liberal message. that's a populous message. republicans win when they make the conservative message with a populous message. democrats win when they can mix a liberal message with a populous message.

she seems positioned well to do that. but here's the thing. seriously, you know the first time i ran, i ran for congress. i didn't run for senate. it's kind of like putting a boxer in a heavy weight fight for his or her first fight and you never know how it's going to go. leslie clark was seen as a great hope for the democratic party until about two hours into his presidential campaign in 2008. and things went terribly. not that knock on clark, but as you said, running a campaign is unlike anything else. >> first-time candidate in a state that has as tough political culture as any other. >> so tough. >> and for the next year, she's got to worry about winning the primary. >> new york city is rough, massachusetts is rough. >> i think she's pretty savvy. i think she'll surprise you. >> she's savvy. >> she will have to be -- as hard as it is to get on the

harvard law school faculty, she'll have to be extraordinary to as a first-time candidate to be the incumbent. >> and we're helping her right now, sam stein. we know -- we know she watches the show. sam stein, the question is, when she's asking all of these policy questions and then somebody asks the tough question that matters the most for people in south boston and puts the mike in her face and says -- >> she'll probably think it's some form of derivative trading. but she'll figure it out. she'll say the catch for the red sox that played very well last night. and thank god they won. >> thank god, sam. it's getting ugly! it's getting ugly. >> oh, really? >> they've got a four-game lead, the wild card, 15 games left. we're going to be crossing our fingers. >> we're going to be fine. we're going to cruise to that.

>> what an amazing lineup they have. tell you what, there are so many parallels between the red sox and the yankees. yankees playing a lot better. the great lineup, great hitters. but just a ravaged rotation. >> we have two pitchers, you only have one. >> we have one. >> the only team with worse pitchers were the red sox. >> we have lester. >> and that's it. >> they'll be back. >> they have an old saying in south boston, lester and five days of rain. >> best-selling author dexter filkins will be here. and florida governor rick scott joins us next. but first, bill. >> bill, why is he showering storm and hate on the boston red sox? >> being rude to our tampa bay friends there in florida. oh, well, let's talk about this forecast. and we're looking pretty nice out there. it's going to be sunny. beautiful summer day.

i say beautiful because temperatures are going to come crashing down in the days ahead. look at washington, d.c. today 87, high of 66 on friday. summer quickly into fall. be prepared. summer's going to hang on. no relief in sight for you in texas until the end of the week. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ male announcer ] what if we told you that cadillac borrowed technology from ferrari to develop its suspension system? or what if we told you that ferrari borrowed technology from cadillac to develop its suspension system? magnetic ride control -- pioneered by cadillac, perfected in the 556-horsepower cts-v. we don't just make luxury cars. we make cadillacs.

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florida's going to be a very, very important part of the nomination process. but florida's just as important part of the country. so rick scott and i are always competing against each other, and that's a good thing to free these states from overburdening one-size-fits-all mentality out of washington, d.c. and let's

get back to being the job creators they should be. >> the republican governor of florida, rick scott. great to have you here. and i've got to start with pensacola, florida. you know, bp was -- that was a nightmare for the region even if oil didn't spill on to pensacola beaches, it scared people away for a while. a lot of friends of mine that had family businesses for years were ravaged in the middle of a recession. great news for the panhandle and for florida. >> absolutely. the highest bed tax ever in the history of the state. >> which means tourism. >> this summer it was hard to get a room. restaurants were packed. bp gave us $30 million to market the panhandle, we used it well. tourism has come back. this year, we've had a good year. in the state, great tourism in the south. we've generated 70,000 jobs this year second to governor perry's texas.

i've got to compete with him every day. jobs are jobs. and i told him he has to win florida so he better help me get more jobs. >> mika, we spend so much time down there with the bp spill. but can you believe a year later when we were talking to so many people hurting that a year later tourism has rebounded the way it has? again, a lot of good marketing. >> it's beautiful there. >> the beaches are beautiful. restaurants are great. great condos, houses. >> i thought it was a shame, though, it didn't happen sooner and they didn't get -- >> bp -- >> yeah, i mean, the whole thing was handled badly on a lot of levels. by bp. >> and there are still people that need to get paid. we're working through ken feinberg and making sure that happens. >> is that moving along at least as it should? as expected? >> it's moving along, but it's never fast enough. >> go ahead. >> are there companies going out of business because it's not

fast enough? >> well, they've had a good year. so the companies that went out of business, went out of business prior to this, this summer they've had a great summer. so they've come back. and it's done better. but it was too slow. >> we talk about nationally the job situation. and florida so often is a leading indicator of how things are going. you have been battling since you've gotten in to get unemployment below 10%. we've seen it go back up. what is unemployment in florida right now? and what needs to be done to bring it down? >> sure. we went up to 12% through last year. and we've gone up the last three years. down at 10.7%. we've generated 77,000 jobs. we're ravaged by real estate, construction, all the things that used to work in our favor dragging the state. >> the positive is, housing's gotten cheap. so people want to buy houses in

florida, they want to live in florida. they like our beaches, they like our weather. you don't freeze to death. >> are housing moving? >> and by the way -- as a guy living in the tri-state area now because of work. my home is still florida, they like the taxes in florida too. upstairs in the northeast, it is insane how much more expensive it is up here. >> yeah. we have no personal income tax, we've got a low business tax that i'm getting rid of. i'm phasing that out. people know we're going to control the size of our government. our government per capita is half of new york's. half. our budget's $69 billion for the same number of people as theirs $136 billion, that doesn't include tax. our country's going to come back. we've got the expansion of the economies of central and south america. so there's more people wanting to do business down there, and people want to live there. it's not like a cold

environment. >> you want to live there. >> love it. >> no taxes, sunny. >> love that. was just down in tampa a couple of nights ago for that debate. governor, i'm wondering, your predecessor got in trouble when he embraced the president. the president's now trying to pass another jobs bill. what's your take on that bill and whether you think it would be a good thing for florida or not. >> well, the devil's in the details. my concern is always what strings will be attached to any money they send back? this is our money. and florida's never gotten back what we send up. the fastest thing to get jobs going in florida is a tree trade agreement. we need to get those free trade agreements signed right now. that would be thousands of jobs in florida. you look out our vicinity to south america with the panama canal. that's the biggest thing he could do for us right now. reduce the corporate tax rates. we can't have more regulation than the rest of the world.

and what do you think is going to happen when you have $1 trillion deficits? if you're a business person, you know taxes have to go up to pay for that. >> i'm torn between asking you about housing or presidential politics. i'll leave it up to you. >> housing. >> you pick a subject. >> this is jeopardy. >> housing's slowly coming back -- >> no, you pick the subject. >> okay. housing. >> next week. we're having a great week next week. >> presidential politics. >> just evaluate as florida candidates for both the nomination site and the general election. strengths and weaknesses of rick perry and mitt romney as good fits for your states. >> i think both of them will win -- both of them would win florida in a general. i think that they both are focused on jobs. i ran last year. every issue was jobs. if you had a job, you were worried about losing it. if you don't have it, it's a depression. so both of them have had success

building jobs. one as a governor, the other one more in business. so both of them would be good candidates. >> what about stylistically? >> i think both of them will do well. i think perry's more of a tea party, you know, candidate. he's going to -- he's going to be more interesting to them. >> is that more where the electorate is now? >> last year, all the big events, almost all of them were the tea party events. you had 1,000 people, the tea party could organize that many people. from that standpoint, that's going to help rick perry. but, you know, it's going to come down to jobs. >> it's an off-year election and you're right, it's jobs. >> jobs, jobs, jobs. whoever has the right blueprint for jobs. and we're early. next week's going to be a big week. we've got the debate and cpak and straw poll, and 3,000

delegates in orlando. rick perry says he's going to go all in. mitt romney said he's not going to participate in the straw poll. everybody's name's on the ballot. you're there. >> sam stein is in washington, d.c. and if you've seen his stock photo we use here on msnbc, looks like a very angry guy, he's probably going to ask a mean question about your approval rating. sam stein, go ahead. >> i'm speechless because of this photo. governor, is social security a ponzi scheme? is it a monstrous lie? and should it be? hold on. should it be one -- should one policy prescription be that states should have the option of running it? >> is social security a ponzi scheme, a big lie? >> we're having trouble with feed. is social security a ponzi scheme? and do you agree with rick perry that states should be running social security instead of the federal government? >> well, the most important thing is we've got to make

sure -- people rely on our social security. it's no different when i have a pension plan in the state. they're relying on these things. we have got to make sure these things are funded. i think the most important thing is anything the government has said they're going to do, they've got to do. so we said we were going to fund social security, we're going to make people have it. >> rick perry said it's unconstitutional. do you believe social security's unconstitutional? >> i don't know how it would be unconstitutional. i want to make sure that the people relying on social security, they get it. >> rick perry suggests if you're about to get it now or if you're getting social security, great. but for younger people, social security's not going to be around. >> if you get your statement, it says it's only 76% funded and there's going to be changes. >> you want it funded 100%, right? >> yeah. and your generation ought to be funding your social security. but people relying on this. they rely on our government to do what they said -- >> the political question before, how much of a problem do you think it is for rick perry in your state that he has this position on social security? >> i don't think it's a problem.

i think everybody realizes it's an issue that we have to deal with. i mean, look, it's no different than what the state's doing with pension, cities and counties are doing with pension. all of these retirement plans, we've got to make sure they're funded, make sure they're fair. you know, the taxpayer, and the person relying on it. so i don't think it's going to be -- i don't think that's going to decide who will be the nominee. >> governor, you've had a rough ride since you've been elected. your approval ratings from the 30s, down to the 30s. your approval ratings in the 30s, before you were even sworn -- >> that's a rough rate. >> that's a rough rate. but, again, and again, they've gone up into the 30s, but obviously that's not something that you'd be excited about. what is going on in the state of florida? why were your approval ratings low even before you got into office? >> well, one, the rough race is now.

they're pretty mean-spirited races. on top of that, i'm willing to make the tough choices. i said, look, we're going to drug screen welfare recipients. that money's supposed to be the benefit of children. i'm going to make sure our pension plan is fair to taxpayers. state workers putting in 3% of their compensation. >> what was it before? >> zero. >> zero to 3%. taxpayers aren't getting a fair pension. we did education good for kids. some people said, you know, one, you're not going to have tenure. so principals can say i'm going to pick the best teacher. >> for new teachers. >> two, we expanded merit pay for teachers, successful charter schools, and fourth, we gave scholarships to kids going to poor-performing schools. this is really good for kids, but there's special interests that don't like it. so you do those -- you do those things, you know, you don't make everybody happy, but it's the right thing long-term to get the state going. on top of that, i went through

and said we're going to reduce regulation that kills jobs. we're getting rid of 1,100 regulations this year that kill jobs. so some people like that, some people don't. but somebody had to make these choices. because this is the way -- this is why our economy's getting better. 70,000 jobs this year. second to, of course, texas. but, you know, we're going to make sure we win over texas because perry's now going to help me in florida. >> it is -- he has passed things that i've heard people like charlie hilton, one of my first supporters in northwest florida have wanted. and tenure being gone, 3% -- again, it's -- it's hard for unions to attack the governor for saying employees should pay 3% of their pension plan. >> but they do. >> they do. they are. >> they do. >> it's the right thing. we've got to make these tough choices.

>> right. >> in our country. and we're doing them in florida. if it's working in florida, we'll be -- i want to make sure florida's the model for the country. >> thank you very much. >> thank you, governor. and coming up this morning, sam stein, thank you. >> we're going to have the glam shot for you. we'll give you a glamor shot and get a good picture. we'll even put a glow around you. >> all right, sam, thanks. >> go, sox, baby. go, sox. just after ahmadinejad said he would release the two hostages, the government has changed its mind. that story and more when "morning joe" returns. ♪ ♪ ♪ when the things that you need ♪

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"morning joe," iran's judiciary now reportedly says that two americans arrested while hiking in iran and convicted of spying last month will not be released as previously reported.

in an interview with nbc's ann curry, iran's president mahmoud ahmadinejad said the men would be released in a couple of days. but now a judiciary official says that is no longer the case adding "the two americans are going to stay in prison for a bit longer. reports of their imminent release are wrong." according to one bail official, one official, plans of a bail deal for the hikers are still under review. bauer and fattal were sentenced to eight years in prison. it's a nightmare. the u.s. ambassador to afghanistan says at least six rocket-propelled grenades hit the u.s. embassy compound in kabul in a violent attack yesterday. it began when men in suicide vests entered both buildings, officials flood their offices. and a fire fight ensued. at least seven people were reportedly killed and more than a dozen wounded. secretary of state hillary clinton called it a "cowardly

attack." >> we will take all necessary steps, not only to ensure the safety of our people, but to secure the area and to ensure that those who perpetrated this attack are dealt with. >> it is the first time insurgents have organized such a complex assault against multiple targets in separate parts of the afghan capital. and the worst attack on that m embassy since it was opened ten years ago. up next, how one covert organization has become more important than even the cia in the war on terror. we're going to talk to the "washington post" dana priest on our segment.

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welcome back to "morning jo joe", 45 past the hour. joining us now dana priest. co-author of the new book "top secret america: the rise of the new american security state," and it's good to have you on the show this morning. you're getting response to the book already. it's been out about a week? >> yes. big interest, i think it's a world that people don't write much about because it's so hard to write about. it is what i try to do is look back ten years later and say, what did we create in response to 9/11? and we created a gigantic government structure that includes a lot of private corporations. some very focused good organizations that have made us much safer than we were on 9/11 and basically defeated almost entirely al qaeda even though

other organizations are, you know, coming up, as well. but also a lot that is of questionable value. >> help us out here historically. always complained about the massive security state that sprung up after the cold war. how were things different, though, after 9/11? how is this secret state been supersized over the past decade? >> well, the main difference is the secrecy. even during the cold war, we can debate how many icbms we were building, how many nuclear weapons we had, how many submarines should be built. we could do that in public. all of this is classified. >> but we didn't know what the intel budget was and the specifics of that, right? >> no, we didn't. but in this regard, you know, the intel budget has become more important because we're not talking -- because it was a surprise we had to focus on networks and not states.

and so we had to redo a lot of how intelligence was gathered. and that's why, you know, congress ended up in the very beginning writing a blank check. we were all worried that there was going to be another attack. but they kept writing them without doing i would say is decent oversight -- >> due diligence. >> what would be the biggest shock for readers that haven't been following you and your work and following this closely since 2002 to 2003. they opened this book up. what is the take away that would shock most -- >> well, i think two things. one is how large this is. 1,200 government organizations that do top secret work, and another 2,000 companies. nearly 900,000 people who have top secret clearances. virtually the size of washington, d.c. but spread out. and the department of homeland security, for instance, is building a building, its headquarters will be larger than the pentagon. but the other thing i think will be surprising, there are

organizations that will be affected that they've probably never heard of. one is the joint special operations command troops that were the ones that killed bin laden. this was an organization that military, so it should be somewhat not of a surprise. but it's actually maintained more secrecy around it than the cia has, which gets, of course, a lot of attention. it's bigger than the cia, it does more killing and capturing than the cia. it has its own interrogation fight, and it really has contributed in a way much more than the cia because it's grown so big. and yet, nobody ever hears about it. officially what it does is it -- it does research. you know, if you were to go on a website, they don't have an external website. they don't say anything about what they really do. and they have in a sense less oversight than the cia, which has to report to congress, which

came about after the '60s and the uses there. they said if you're going to do something so sensitive, you need to come and tell us, but this unit doesn't necessarily have to do that. >> clearly the focus is on al qaeda, but what else are these people doing? what are the other threats? potential threats they're concerned about? >> well, now, the interesting trend is in the united states. is the so-called home grown terrorists. which i think -- in some instances because these aren't home grown. a lot of the problems come from recent immigrants from problematic countries, actually. but you have the department of homeland this see something, say something campaign, which is a sort of dragnet approach to counterterrorism. it's not worked in the past that way. what has worked is really focused, experienced agents from the fbi who have done counterterrorism for years. they are the ones who get the tips and find the people.

dhs, a huge bureaucracy, most of which are contractors, by the way, it is wanting to take this broad approach. now we have suspicious activity reports, local police, local sheriffs are being encouraged with money from federal government and initiatives to be the front line for the fbi. be the tipsters and put you in a database under suspicions. if you take pictures of bridges, if you walk in front of federal buildings too much, that can sit in a database, people can add information to your file and you're never going to know about it and you didn't necessarily do anything wrong. there's a lot of concern this is an imprecise tool ten years later. >> it's concerning but is there a clear, obvious better way? >> sure. >> what? >> the fbi. the fbi, if you look at all the

cases that have been developed since 9/11 in the united states, they've been developed by the fbi's counterterrorism agents. they know how to do this. >> john heilemann, speaking of suspicious activity. >> every one of those files, let's not talking about it. >> not just for the parking lot exchanges. >> there's a lot of accountability problems, lot of civil liberties issues, but this is an infrastructure that is designed to keep us safe. do you think it's been successful at that mission? or has there been failure of that stated goal? >> i would say we definitely are safer than we were on 9/11. it's because of some groups like the ones i've mentioned, the fbi at home who have made us safer. it's not, however, due to the majority of what's inside this thing we call top secret america. i'll give you another example,

the director of national intelligence, a position created after 9/11, when people saw this was becoming so big, people said we got to give a manager to be in charge of this. however, that organization has grown so much, if you look at their building, it's hard to get inside these groups, 500,000 square feet. five walmarts stacked on top of each other, in some of the wealthiest, most expensive real estate in washington. many people inside the community don't know what they do, don't know how they've made this process better. i think the groups that are the most focused, the fbi, the cia's analysts who found bin laden, those people have been on that case for ten years. they're not the vast majority of analysts. >> you're talking about the professionals. >> the professionals with experience and focus. >> have done this for decades. >> right. who have been asked to do a particular thing. >> washington post dana priest.

the book is "top secret america," the recognize of the new american security state. still ahead dexter filkins will be here. more "morning joe" when we come back.

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>> okay. welcome back to "morning joe." chair of the house budget committee, paul ryan will be on

our show tomorrow. >> it's murderer's road. this is as good as it gets. >> this is the best. >> dr. brzezinski will join us and jim cramer. up next, more on last night's special election with john heilemann. [ horn honks ] hey, it's sandra -- from accounting. peter. i can see that you're busy... but you were gonna help us crunch the numbers for accounts receivable today. i mean i know that this is important. well, both are important. let's be clear. they are but this is important too. [ man ] the receivables. [ male announcer ] michelin knows it's better for xerox to help manage their finance processing. so they can focus on keeping the world moving. with xerox, you're ready for real business.

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♪ >> from the very beginning, this has been a grass roots campaign.

it is people like me who got off their couch and said i'm as mad as hell and i'm not going to take it anymore. this country has been plagued by ap think and indifference to the political process. i think we're all waking up and i'm more than thrilled to help lead the charge. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. welcome back to "morning joe." >> it is pretty out there. >> gorgeous. >> beautiful day. >> mark halperin and john heilemann. >> big elections last night. john, you were the heart beat of new york city. what happened? the marxist side of new york ci city. what happened out on long island last night in the special election? >> well, the republicans took a seat that the democrats have held since 1922.

i believe. in a race that republicans attempted very vigorously to nationalize and turn into a referendum on barack obama, a weak democratic candidate lost, but the republicans, i think, will claim with some justification that this is a canary in a coal mine. >> republicans lost new york 26 last year. is it the same thing? >> exactly right. >> is it the same thing or different? >> look, you have to start with the fact that all of these off year elections, special elections, they have limited predictive value just in general, but to the extent that democrats claim that there was -- we had justification last year, that their candidate had run very strongly against the republican proposals on medicare, he tried to nationalize that election. there was evidence in the polling that that showed that had been effective. republicans will claim this was a brace that republicans who campaigned as much against barack obama as they did against the democrat in this case, and republicans, i think, have some ground to stand on.

there's a lot of anecdotal evidence from reporters talking to people, a lot of conservatives for a democratic district, it's a relatively conservative district, but -- >> it is a democratic district. >> nothing like manhattan. it's not as liberal. it's not the manhattan liberals you think of, but as i said, they campaigned very strongly against obama. they made -- particularly they made obama's positions on israel an issue. strongly campaigned against the democrat for having supported the gay marriage situation. >> there's a very strong, as you rightly bring up, a very strong orthodox jewish population in this district that usually votes democratic. i've suspected for a long time barack obama is in really big trouble in the state of florida. come 2012, i don't think that race is going to be a nail biter

regardless of who he runs against. mark, this is what we need to sort through this morning. i remember republicans losing a seat they should have won in a special election in murtha's old district. is that pennsylvania? >> i think it's 12. >> when they can't win that seat, when they have to focus on one seat one day, a seat they should have won, how are they going to win a working majority? let's take those results, compare them to what happened last night. these things can be -- i don't want people to get the wrong impression. i think it's predictive. i think this is horrific news for barack obama based on everything i've seen over the past 15 years, but that said, i thought pennsylvania 12 was bad news for republicans. i thought new york 26 was bad news for republicans. >> you can sometimes see the national media overstating the implications of a local race.

i don't think there are very many elements here that suggest it's overstatement. this was nationalized. overwhelmingly democratic district. the voters there clearly wanted to send a message. there's a fair amount of polling in this race. what were people unhappy about? they're unhappy about the president's policies. they wanted to send a message against the democratic party of barack obama. >> the spin, willie geist, coming out of the democratic national committee was not inspiring. >> it was not inspiring. on the republican side, we say this is a referendum from republicans, the spin from debbie wasserman schultz, head of the dnc, people who didn't like the president to begin with decided to come out tonight. this is not predictive of anything nationally. you wonder as a political strategy, why not make this about anthony weiner. if you want to call it throwing him under the bus, do so.

that was the move there, rather than their defense this morning looks a little bit weak. . i think actually that, i mean for the snapshot, if the election were going to be held today, i think mitt romney would beat barack obama and i think he would beat him handily, but it's not being held today. i think things get grimmer by the day. you show the independent poll, it's not the independence if i'm barack obama that concern me, it's not the special elections, it is the grumbling from my own democratic party and the drumabling from the base, the grumbling on capitol hill. this is fairly unprecedented. i still had republicans coming up to me in 2006, 2008 attacking me for going after george w. bush, saying how dare you? he's doing a great job. it's those democrats. i got abused actually from '05 to '08. there were still republican

loyalists that believed in the cause of what george w. bush was doing, even if he was at 29%. you don't find those democrats out there today behind closed doors. anyway, the president has no defenders outside the white house that i've come across. is that just me? >> you see it in the polling too. the first two years of the administration, people said the bases have said they don't like barack obama. in fact what really was going on liberal bloggers complained about the president. the base was just as enthusiastic. barack obama is enormously popular. >> we keep hearing he's got the democrats with him. >> that has changed. what we saw in the last round of national polling, for the first time, the actual democratic base, not the left blogosphere, the african-american voters, hispanic voters, young voters, liberal voters, you saw erosion in the president's numbers in september. the thing that was previously atmospheric but not real is taking hold. there's not a widespread turning

against, but all barack obama has to lose is to have 10% or 15% of his base stay home next november. that is a real problem, because we know one thing, that republican turnout next november is going to be sky high. there is so much antipathy for the president. the republican base is going to turn out. just to see that enthusiasm eroding now in a tangible way is a real problem. >> mark, we saw this after katrina, the republican base just fled. it was really an underreported story. post-katrina, that's when the republican base said i've had it with this guy. he's incompetent. we still had intense people defending him, but that's when the erosion really broke, post-katrina. >> one way to look at the results from last night is the three voter groups, republicans, really energized to turn out against the president. independents do not think the

president is doing a good job in these two districts and democrats not particularly energized. what are the prospect that is the president can change the middle too, the independents and the democrats? difficult, particularly given some of the statistics which we saw yesterday about poverty. things are grim and the president has to figure out an argument to make to energize his base and to get independents back with him. >> that's really one of the big headlines this morning, front page of the new york times and other papers as well. the president is obviously continuing his jobs bill push. in north carolina, there is a stunning snap shot that can play in the data we have. the latest data say the number of americans falling into poverty continues to grow. here's what the bureau has found. the poverty rate stands at 15.1%. that's the highest level since 1993. more than 46 million people now

live below the poverty line. that's the highest number in the survey's history. some 22% of u.s. children are affected, while median income, which totals just under $50,000 is at a 15 year low. the figures for the year 2010, the most recent data available marked the third straight year of a rise in the poverty rate. the report also shows that minorities were hit the hardest with african-americans experiencing the highest poverty rate of 27% and hispanics close behind at 26%. those statics add to the pressure on the white house and congress to reach a compromise to get a plan to get people back to work. the president visits raleigh durham today. during the remarks in ohio yesterday, the president once again urged washington to put politics aside and pass his bill. >> yesterday, there were some

republicans quoted in washington, saying that even if they agree with the proposals in the american jobs act, they shouldn't pass it because it would give me a win. you know, that's the kind of games play we have gotten used to in washington. think about that. they've supported this stuff in the past, but they're thinking maybe they don't do it this time because obama's promoting it. give me a win? this isn't about giving me a win. this isn't about giving democrats or republicans a win. it's about giving the american people a win. >> you know, willie, we've been talking about this for several years now, the hollowing out of the middle class. union membership, private union membership down to 7%. it used to be 35%, manufacturing jobs going overseas. now we see poverty rising. it seems like there's a great hollowing out of america's middle class. >> it's hard to find good news

when you look inside these numbers. 40% of african-american children living below the poverty line. you talk about the poverty line, it's $22,000 a year for a family of four. think if you even raise that number to 50,000, you're going to get millions more people. that's almost impossible to live on. something's got to give here. it's unclear in the president's jobs plan there's anything that goes to that, to poverty and strengthening the middle class. that's where our problems are in the economy right now. >> yesterday we talked about it with thomas friedman and steve rattner. this is not just something that you put on president obama or president bush or president clinton. this is something that starts going back to 1970, 1971, or as jeffrey sacks said off camera yesterday. it goes back to 1978 when china opened up and real globalization

began. these are decade long trends. and they're bad lines. one jobs bill isn't going to do this. we've got a lot of work ahead of us. >> even then, to willie's point. the jobs bill designed primarily to get people to work and reduce the unemployment rate, we have as you just said, joe, we have a wage problem in this country. stagnant wages has bebdevilled the country for decades. people that have jobs are living at sub sis tense level. that is a recipe for a sense of stag nancy and sense of decline in the country, even if you got the unemployment rate down to 7% or 4%. if wages are stagnant for most american families, it's better for them to vai job than not,

the overall sense of prosperity from world war ii to the 70s, that's evaporated. that's one of the major problems we have, the people who have jobs feel they're on this treadmill and the prospects of their family are not improving going forward. >> you look at what we talked about yesterday, mika, so many of these booms that we've seen economically, in the late 1990s, we all celebrated the fact that america had a great economy. in large part, it was a dot com boom. in 2000, nasdaq crashed. 2001, 2002, you had enron and wor worldcomm. over the past decade we lived off of second mortgages. it seems like since the early 1990s, the united states hasn't

had a real innovative push to create jobs in this country. >> globalization has hurt us more than it's helped us in a lot of these sectors. the substantively, the big news in this, let's hope this gets people to focus on how painful this is for americans across the country. we need economic growth as the first step. we need to make big structural changes. as a political matter, this opens up for the republican nominee for president, a chance to say under this president, not just white people, but minorities in this country have really suffered. >> up next on "morning joe," best selling author, dexter filkins joins the table. let's go to bill cairns. >> fall has arrived in the northern plains. this morning, people in the 30s. now that era has made it to chicago. chicago, so much for your summer weather. you're back down to the 50s. it's 55 degrees in chicago. cool refreshing air mass. people are saying it's too cold

in minneapolis at 44. everyone in the eastern half of the country, that is the air heading your way. there's a cold front that's the cause of all that cold air. that's bringing rain to st. louis, the worst weather of any city this morning has been st. louis. forecast today, enjoy what is going to be the last day of summer from boston to new york to d.c., mid to upper 80s. temperatures will come crashing down as we head towards the end of the week. forecast-wise, it's a very, very nice late summer day from boston to new york. enjoy it while it lasts, that cool air is rushing in. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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>> the president can call this bill whatever he wants, but in reality, all he's doing is just proposing a hodgepodge of retread ideas aimed at convincing people that a temporary fix is really permanent and that it will create permanent jobs and then daring republicans to vote against it. make no mistake, what the president proposed so far is not serious, and it's not a jobs plan. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it's 20 past the hour. it's time for a check on "business before the bell" with cnbc's simon hobbs live at the new york stock exchange. >> good morning. in about nine minutes time we're going to get retail sales figures which is important for gauging the strength of the consumer. you've done work this morning on the census bureau on poverty and the fact that average house hold incomes are down to 1996 levels. you've got this polarization that stores at the top end of the market, the big department

stores, they're doing well because a lot of the people on the upper end of the income scale have more disposable income because they're able to remortgage. at the bottom of the scale, the stores are doing well because you have such poverty and unemployed. that will be a focus at 8:30. the big news will be in the early afternoon for wall street. we'll get the results of a conference call between the germans, france and greece. that too will be a market mover today. >> news about james murdoch testifying once again. >> yes, calling back to the u.k. parliament to clear up what he was saying when he last appeared when he suggested that he didn't know of there being more than one journalist in the news core fold using phone hacking. we've now got disturbances for news core on three continents.

you have the class action allegation that his father, rupert had a historic pattern of corruption. in australia, they're launching a big review on how they regulate the media empires. that's exactly where murdoch started off. he and kerry packer are huge. >> have a great day. >> coming up next, war correspondent, dexter filkins is here. keep it here on "morning joe." we'll be right back. i know you're worried about making your savings last and having enough income when you retire. that's why i'm here -- to help come up with a plan and get you on the right path. i have more than a thousand fidelity experts working with me so that i can work one-on-one with you.

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>> with us now, staff writer for the new yorker, claimed war correspondent, author of the "forever war," dexter filkins. the new issue of "new yorker," the journalist and the spies, details of a murderer of a reporter who exposed pakistan's secrets. thank you for being with us. tell us about the story. >> as you mentioned, there was a journalist in pakistan who i just happened to know named

saleem. his body was found floating in a canal last may. in my story, i try to untagle the mystery of how he died and who killed him and why, why being the most important thing. >> we don't want to kill hamlin in the first act but who killed him and why? >> all the evidence points to the pakistany spy agency known everywhere as the isi, interservice intelligence. what made them so angry and nervous was he was continually exposing the things they wanted to keep secret. in this case, he had written a story about how al qaeda had infiltrated the pakistani military. that's a serious matter, because they have more than 100 nuclear weapons there. it looks like that story got him killed. >> john?

>> it's -- i haven't gotten a chance to read the piece yet, but the isi is something of such incredible international controversy at this point. talk a little bit about the motivations that drive them. we talk about them in the context of american foreign policy all the time. >> it's kind of known as the double game. that's what it is. the u.s. gives pakistan around $3 billion a year, which is a lot of money. we expect them, we hope that they will be our friend and ally. sometimes they are and sometimes they're not. when they're not, that means they're not fighting the taliban, they're helping the taliban. they're helping groups that basically almost everybody would regard as a terrorist group, like somebody like lash

cartoyba. it's a complicated game. my story, it's a spy novel basically. you can't make it up. these things are -- these are the crown jewels. these are the biggest secrets they have. when you start prying into these things and writing about them and publicizing them, they make the military nervous. >> the united states gave a ton of money, it started after 9/11 to help us prevent another attack on this country. is the u.s. getting its money worth in pakistan? >> that's the money question. i think somebody -- an american official said to me once -- i said to him. i put that question to him. i said what are we getting for $3 billion a year? the answer is we are getting a slightly less hostile pakistan. which isn't much, but you have to remember, pakistan is where 85 to 90% of american supplies

to afghanistan have to go through. in a way, they kind of have us over a barrel. they really do. >> you just returned from summer vacation, where you've been vacationing now, summering now for almost a decade, afghanistan. tell me what did you see there? >> i've been going there a long time. to pakistan. i've never seen it so troubling. i think what happened was, in may, of course, you had the raid that killed osama bin laden. >> right. >> what happened, you know pakistan is a deeply chaotic and troubled place. the one institution that people always believed could function was the military, was the army. and it turns out, they didn't know the americans were coming. either they didn't know osama was there or they were helping to hide them. >> how could the isi not know osama was there?

>> it was pretty obvious from us, getting a peek, getting glimpses over time. how would they not know he was in that kpaund. i find that hard to believe. >> it's hard to believe. >> doesn't the isi have that compound locked down. >> that's a big country. >> what about in the suburbs of the capital when you have a massive compound like that. >> it's hard to believe they didn't know. i think when the raid in abbottabad happened and osama was killed, the army was humiliated. you have the one institution that everybody thought actually worked turns out that didn't work either. >> we've been concerned for the better part of the last decade about al qaeda taking control, having too much influence over a country that does have over 100 nuclear weapons, but even in pakistan, the percentage, at least three, four, five years ago of islamic radicals was

under 10%. the taliban, was loathed by most people in pakistan. >> right. >> has that changed over the past five years? are we losing the middle class of pakistan? there is one, to islamic radicalism? >> that's a great question. i think the answer is you have a kind of complicated phenomenon where the islamist's feeling is merging with anti-americanism. that's very strong. the feeling of anger and hatred towards the united states, even though we write these enormous checks every month, is huge. that's kind of merging. the two things are kind of coming together. it's hard to separate them. that number is really high. really high. >> how much of that, i mean, just to reflect on, there was a lot after bin laden was killed, there was a lot of american politicians to looked to joe's

question earlier and said it's time to pretend this is not an ally of ours. there was a lot of noise around that. what was the reaction of pakistan to that? did that fuel any of the kind of feeling that you're describing in terms of anti-americanism in the country? >> yeah. it's a very proud country. i think that's really what it comes down to. the mismatch in power is so great. we're the guys that just doll the money out all the time. look, i mean, they feel needy. they know they need the money. that doesn't make them feel very good about themselves as a country. so it's a complicated relationship. >> and what do you make, before you go, of the attack on the embassy in kabul? the talk about whether or not this could have been work from the inside and exactly how developed we are in terms of getting them on their own? >> well, the embassy is in the middle of town, but it's not -- you know, the americans have

always tried to be pretty open. they don't have really, really high walls and giant machine gun towers. it's pretty open. people can come and go. so in that sense, it's vulnerable. that's the thing about, to use the academic term. it's asymmetric warfare. ten guys can kind of get everybody's attention by launching an attack on the embassy, but it only takes ten guys. >> anti-americanism is growing. the bin laden raid didn't help our standing there. what about the constant drone attacks? what is the impact on anti-americanism in pakistan because of the drone attacks? >> you know, the drone attacks are thought by american officials to be very effective. they kill bad guys and they don't kill a lot of innocent civilians. the perception is entirely different in pakistan. every week there's a couple of drone strikes. it's a kind of constant reminder

that they really don't have control over their country. >> the united states is dropping bombs on a country that has not declared war. >> it's weird. >> it's kind of strange. if you're an american and there's a country dropping bombs on texas every two weeks, if it were mexico, the first drone would be over and we would be down to nicaragua. if this doesn't stir up anti-americanism in the four countries we haven't declared war against but we're dropping bombs, it's detached from reality. >> the pakistani government isn't being straight with its own people, because at the same time they come out and say this is a violation of our sovereignty and we're really angry about this, they're at the same time cooperating with the americans on the strikes. they're giving the americans intelligence to carry out the strikes, but they don't feel like they have enough control

over it, but they're not being very honest with their people on it. >> i'm curious, because you have such insight. your book is so amazing. >> he knows everything. you can ask him any question. >> what do you make of the difference between traffic in kabul versus new york city? >> where are you more scared? >> where are you more late? where do you miss deadlines? >> the traffic in new york was really bad today and i was late, but the traffic in kabul, kabul is a city of like 5 million people. there's only about two paved roads. >> i bet you're always on time there though. >> no. there's two paved roads and about 1,000 cars, but that means the traffic is really bad. >> worse than new york? >> definitely. >> we kid because we love you. >> dexter, it's wonderful to see you. >> thank you for being here. fascinating piece. this reads like a spy novel. >> it's amazing. you can see more with dexter in

the mojo green room. is louis going to talk to him? look at this? >> you must be really mad at him for being late to sentence him to louis. >> you're late, you go to louis. go to joe.msnbc.com to seep behind the scenes interviews with dexter and more guests. >> thanks for being here. >> we're joking. >> i'm late to my own show most of the time. >> you're adorable. >> coming up, a screening of the new movie "puncture" is drawing high profile attention in washington. what about this film has some in congress taking note? actor jesse mart be and mark kassen joins us next. ♪

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♪ >> i didn't want to bring this up here, but i'm really sorry my firm won't let me subcontract any more work to you guys. >> what? >> we have to work on a safety point case. >> are you serious? >> i'm sorry. you can keep the retainer. i wish there was something else i could do. >> i understand.

>> 42 past. that was a scene from the new movie "puncture," a drama about two small time personal injury lawyers fighting to keep a case that threatened to expose a health care and pharmaceutical conspiracy. joining us now are jesse martin and mark kassen. >> looks good. tell us about the topic you tackle here, because we were talking about making certain topics accessible to people through things like movies and television. >> my brother and i, we made a movie together, are very careful to say it's first and foremost a movie, a piece of entertainment. we don't want to pretend we're investigative journalists. we got inspired by a story about these people who were very committed to the needle safety act of 1987, and this case where someone was stuck by a needle and somebody who invented a retractable needle that could

stop the over 800,000 accidental needle sticks a year to get that needle into hospitals and into market which was not able to happen. these two lawyers with very little resources went up against, you know, a $100 billion industry. >> again, it wasn't safety first there, it was profits first. so what happened? >> what happened is there is a law called the safe harbor anti-kick back law. the gpos are giving kick backs to get their products. it's a pay to play in their hospitalses. therefore the medical supply companies are insured only their products, whether it's cotton balls, anything. >> jesse, whether it's better for the patient or not, sometimes you can't get into the big hospitals because -- so tell us about the opening scene, what

we were seeing as we came in, where you were breaking the news that your company was pushing you away. >> exactly. i mean, i guess that is a reality, you know, because you were dealing with this case, i couldn't allow you to take work anymore, at least not from me, my firm. >> this is a real thing. i mean, you know, one of the cool things about getting to be a story teller is you get to meet people that don't do what you do, to learn how much pressure people get under from large corporate entities, the pressure on small people by stopping the work, by offering them money or offering them a way to legally buy out their competitors and silence other people is amazing. >> jesse, what did you think when you first heard the story and script, big "law and order" star guy, you get the script about needles and did you know

anything about it first? >> the issue, no, i had no idea. i'm certainly aware that people do get accidentallypricked by needles and can die from it. my entry about this was -- i've known them for so long. we're doing this movie. read it. i was like wow, where's my part. >> it's not about needles, it's not about a 1987 act. it's about something much, much bigger. that is a system that can be corrupted and that can actually get in the way of hospitals delivering health care. >> exactly. >> actually, this is a metaphor for everything happens right now. people talk about budget deficits and making these choices over where this money out of medicare can come from,

for example. there's $40 billion a year in added health care costs because of these kick backs. 17.5 attributed to medicare and medicaid. at a time when people want to say the right should cut this or the left should cut that, the right, left, unions and medical supply industry are working together right now only it's not in the best interest of the patients and people. the cool thing about the example of the nurses, it's a lot like, when you guys go to pensacola florida to show the fish story, this person is affected by the oil showing up in the shores. that's a metaphor for how individuals are affected. >> i understand speaking of health, that we weren't good for his health when we went out to l.a. >> he's a ridiculous fan. he knows about the fish house in pensacola, which i just learned about this morning, but he would watch the live feed in l.a., which means you had to get up --

>> 3:00. >> that's not healthy, man. >> that means you're up from the night before, my man. >> i'm not a big sports fan. i have watched some soccer because of you, but if there were trading cards for you folks and people on the hill, i would probably have them. that's really because of my dad, my brothers and my dad. >> does this show make you feel smart. >> it does. >> you know stuff that you didn't know before. >> yes, i can read a couple of quick things and i'm done. >> jesse is in the movie is a testament of how you can abuse a friendship over a long time. >> do you feel used, jesse? >> not at all. i had a blast. i love houston. i had a good time. good barbecue, met incredible talent that are well used in the movie. >> houston is a great community. >> i'm using this as a stepping stone to get a bigger role. >> jesse martin, mark kassen.

the film is "puncture," in theaters september 23rd. we're back in a moment. [ oswald ] there's a lot of discussion going on about the development of natural gas, whether it can be done safely and responsibly. at exxonmobil we know the answer is yes. when we design any well, the groundwater's protected by multiple layers of steel and cement. most wells are over a mile and a half deep so there's a tremendous amount of protective rock between the fracking operation and the groundwater. natural gas is critical to our future. at exxonmobil we recognize the challenges and how important it is to do this right.

>> we're going to do a little baseball. red sox, middle of a slump. boston fans concerned. they've dropped nine of the last 11, including a sweep at the hands of the rays. going into last night, the rays three behind the red sox in the wildcard. boston doing damage last night against the jays. back to back home runs for ellsbury and pedroia. red sox score 18 runs on 18 hits. on the mound, tim wakefield, six innings, five earned rounds. good enough for his 200th career

win at the age of 45. second oldest pitcher to reach that milestone. after the game, showered with champagne and gets a standing ovation from the crowd. the rays lost last night so now boston up four games in the wildcard, but they play four games against each other this weekend. >> 18 runs on 18 hits that is offensive efficiency defined. >> it is indeed. >> for one night. >> maybe the best team in the american league though playing in detroit right now with the best pitcher, justin verlander of the tigers cruising again. this time seven innings, six strikeouts zero runs. tiger beat the white sox 5-0. he's won his last 11 straight starts dating back to july 21st. his 23rd win of the year. the tigers running away with the division. they've won 11 consecutive games. 12 and a half up. >> what do you think of justin verlander not just cy young but mvp also. >> i think he'll end up in the top three.

milestone for rivera last night, 600th career save came against the mariners. the game ended on a caught stealing. martin gunning down the tieing run. rivera within one of the all time record. rivera will have a chance to tie the record tonight if he gets into the game against seattle. >> look at this pitch. you got the marlins and braves yesterday. >> oh, lord. >> that's florida pitcher brad hand throws it a mile and a half behind freeman. he's got a guy leading off first. he can't decide whether to throw to first or home so he splits the difference. braves win the game 7-1. >> that's embarrassing. >> he might have caught a little bit of -- >> yes. >> -- stuff. >> just got away from him. >> what if anything did we learn

today coming up next? >> nothing. [ indistinct talking on radio ] [ tires screech ] [ crying ] [ applause ] [ laughs ] [ tires screech ] [ male announcer ] your life will have to flash by even faster. autodrive brakes on the cadillac srx activate after rain is detected to help improve braking performance. we don't just make luxury cars. we make cadillacs. down the hill? man: all right. we were actually thinking, maybe... we're going to hike up here, so we'll catch up with you guys. [ indistinct talking and laughter ]

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♪ >> kids, it's time to talk about what we learned today.

willie, geist what did you learn today? >> i learned from republicans, the election last night, i learned that the referendum had nothing to do with the president. >> rick perry said that would not hurt him in the primary. >> do you believe snim. >> jury is out. >> what did you learn? >> one that you can snort flaxseed oil and number two, if you want to scare somebody -- >> hold on. not the oil. you crush up the actual flaxseed. it's good for your cholesterol. >> if you want to intimidate someone, send them a picture of sam stein taken by our crew. >> who is responsible for this sam stein picture? >> alex. >> it was vicious. we thought it had to be t.j. >> by the way, t.j. had taken it down and out.