governor perry was right to order that girls get shots at school to protect them from cervical cancer. this gave congresswoman bachmann a chance to start doing the planet of the apes dance. the calling out ritual. the clamoring that goes on when someone dares to show any interest in human science and how it can be applied to save lives. you have to ask yourself, what would be worse, that they believe what they say or are mimicking those, but are not asking us to give them command of the most awful weapons of the nuclear age with all the scientific awareness of the stone age. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "the last word with lawrence o'donnell" starts right now. if the obama campaign wasn't scared yesterday, it should be terrified today. >> i love you, barack! >> i love you back. >> democratic enthusiasm. >> if you love me, you have to help me pass this bill.

>> new reasons for democrats to find a new winning strategy. >> the economy, the economy, the economy. >> the poverty rate now stands at 15.1%. >> it's $22,000 a year for a family of four. >> if you are in the lower 20%, you are going to live 6 1/2 years less. >> the message is being sent. >> hello, north carolina. >> third jobs speech in as many days. >> until the inequality in this country is dealt with, you're not going to see massive growth. >> every single one of you can help make this bill a reality. >> african-americans experiencing the highest poverty rate -- >> i sent congress this piece of legislation. it's called the american jobs act. >> low numbers in terms of people's faith in him to fix the economy. >> it's about giving all of us a win. >> the feelings about congressional republicans on that same score are much worse. >> pass this bill. >> there are now two more republicans who can vote against the president's jobs plan.

>> a dramatic upset. >> special elections to replace anthony weiner. >> anthony weiner lost self-control. >> right here in queens. >> i think we're all waking up. >> there's definitely some hand wringing. >> there is hope for democrats. >> i'm going to run for the united states senate. >> there's a lot of lunatics it seems -- >> i didn't say that. >> i graduated in the top ten in my graduating class. of 13. donald's got some advice for me. >> michele bachmann, she might have blown it. >> i'm not a doctor. >> i've been having trouble understanding the christianity these candidates represent. >> unique christian origin. defend the values, the christian values. may god continue to bless this great country we love. political history was made here in new york city last night in an election outcome that has democrats tonight worrying more than ever about their party's

and their president's election prospects next year. a republican decisively won the congressional seat last occupied by democrat anthony weiner. that seat had been held by democrats for 88 years. if you think democrats lost the seat because its previous democratic occupant had to leave under a heavy cloud of embarrassment, if not scandal, you must think again. scandal is not enough for democrats to lose a new york city congressional seat. there is no better proof than the former house ways & means committee chairman charlie rangel who was easily re-elected in november 2010 in the middle of a highly publicized house ethics committee investigation which ultimately led to his formal censure by the house of representatives. some democratic spinners tried

to blame yesterday's loss on the weak democratic candidate, but weak democratic candidates like charlie rangel easily win new york city congressional seats in normal times. the republican candidate who took the seat away from the democrats was as weak a republican as new york politics can produce. the now victorious bob turner who has never been elected to public office will take to the republican house of representatives a private sector career that includes having been the head of the production company that created "the jerry springer show." it is doubtful the new springer influence on house republicans will improve much the general tenor of the house of representatives. local new york television was filled today with man and woman on the street, explanations of yesterday's election. they were all minor variations

on an anti-obama theme. >> i'm not sure, but i'm really disappointed in obama. i was hoping much more. >> joining me now, democratic congressman from new york, elliot engel. thank you very much for joining me tonight, congressman. >> my pleasure, lawrence. >> congressman, you have an office, a district office in the bronx. what are you hearing in your bronx office? is it similar to what we were hearing all over local new york television today about new york democratic voters disappointed in president obama and expressing it as they did yesterday by voting for a kind of loony republican candidate for congress? >> well, i think a lot of it is the dissatisfaction with the economy. people are scared. they don't see any improvement in the economy. there are a lot of democrats who say to me, tell the president to be more feisty, to take it to the republicans, to stop backing down, to stand for something. there's a lot of dissatisfaction with that.

there are some people who questioned the president's policies on israel and were dissatisfied with the policies. i think that came into place. i think it all coming together was sort of the perfect storm. i think the democrats received a wake-up call. i think sometimes wake-up calls may seem bad at the moment but they actually turn out to be good if you heed the advice that they give you. i think the president going around and answering his critics and talking about the jobs bill last week in front of congress was a very good first step and i think the feisty barack obama that we all knew and loved that we voted for in 2008, i hope he's back. i think he's back. if that was any indication of his speaking to congress last week, he's back. you know, when he left his speech and finished it, walked up the aisle, i had an aisle seat. i whispered in his ear and i said harry truman 1948. he smiled. i think that's what you have to have with barack obama.

i think he has to be feisty, give his vision. if the republicans won't go along with it, then he runs against the do nothing congress as harry truman did in 1948 when they said he couldn't win and he won because he took it to the american people. >> i don't think we have to remind any of our viewers that you have an aisle seat at every presidential address to congress. we saw you that night as we do every night. i want to read to you a paragraph that appears, as i'm sure you read it already, above the fold on the front page of today's "new york times" about this election. representative debbie wasserman-schultz of florida, the chairwoman of the democratic national committee, said the district's large concentration of orthodox jews made it unusual and meant the race had few national ramifications. congressman, i was shocked to

read that as the democratic party explanation as to how you lost this very traditional democratic district in new york city. there's something about the jewish vote there that is suddenly nonrepresentative of american voters. >> well, i would not agree with that statement. i do think that there was a loss. it was exacerbated by the fact that many orthodox jewish voters wanted to send the president a message on israel. this is sort of nationalized. there were vote losses because of that. if we think that's the only reason, then we're misreading it. i think that the reason, as i said, some voters stayed home. when it's a special election, you have to have a reason to vote. very few people vote. if you're angry with the economy, if you're angry and you think the president hasn't stood up for the values that he campaigned on, then you go to the polls. and i think that people just

want to see the old barack obama. and i think that, again, if we take this election -- it wasn't a good election. democrat democrats, we feel terribly about it. i think sometimes something good comes out of something bad and we have to realize that we have got to show why we're democrats, that we believe in creating jobs for working people. we believe in preserving social security and medicare and medicaid. we're not going to toss those away. we're going to stand by our commitments. and we're going to not look to compromise every step of the way. compromise is wonderful if you have a partner to compromise with. but the republicans have shown i think in the debt ceiling debate they're not interested in compromising. they don't want to raise taxes even for people who can afford it. they don't want to close tax loopholes for big corporations. they don't want big oil to pay their fair share. they're protecting the big corporations. i think we need to take that to the american people. i think there was a

dissatisfaction. i don't think it was because of a weak candidate that we lost. i think, again, we need to learn from this and if we learn to this -- you know, this is the precursor to 2012. 2012 is the big race. and i think that if we do what we're supposed to do by knowing what we stand for and showing the voters, there will be more enthusiasm and voters will come out and vote for us in 2012. >> congressman eliot engel, thank you for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> joining us now, msnbc political analyst and "huffington post" reporter alex wagner. alex, the democratic spin is out there. just like when scott brown won that senate seat, teddy kennedy's seat in massachusetts, the democratic spin including from wasserman-schultz, oh, the democratic candidate was weak and it wasn't scott brown is a message that we are in serious trouble in the upcoming election which it turned out to be. >> right. on some level you could understand they don't want to say, hey, we really messed up, this is a big defeat and it's a

big problem. >> oh, why not? come on. no, that's a good point. they have to spin. that's their job. >> what i've heard from certain congressional aides is, look, behind the scenes they know it's a big deal and wake-up call. the alarm bell is ringing. on a certain level, thank god it's 14 months before the election. i think you have two things going on here. one are the democratic voters who are using this as a message delivery system. president obama, we are not happy with the economy -- >> can anyone understand this as a message delivery system? i'm unhappy with the liberal democrat who i voted for so i'm going to vote for jerry springer's producer -- >> well, yeah, it is counterintuitive but i think they were -- in the back of their minds to a certain degree it was we kind of have a free pass on this. the seat is going to get redistricted out of existence in 2012, he's only going to be in power for a year, the stakes aren't that high. the other thing compounding this, lawrence, is those that stayed home. that's another serious problem for the white house.

if there is a considerable amount of a base that is just not going to the polls on election day in 2012, that's a big problem for president obama. as much as a fired up conservative base is. >> look, i am very new york centric tonight in this news because i learned my politics in new york politics. and the only political campaigns i've worked on were in new york state politics. so this shocks me to the core that they could -- staten island is the unique piece of new york city that always votes republican. mostly votes republican. because it's an island unto itself. it's a separate world. >> it is. >> but not there. so what i'm starting to wonder is, does this indicate that the president, the democratic president in running for re-election might actually have to campaign in new york? new york's a very expensive state that never costs the democrats anything. they never have to buy new york tv time. >> right. >> might he actually have to spend some money here and some time? >> i don't think he can take anything for granted. this is -- you know, in the same way that massachusetts, ted kennedy's seat went to scott brown, this is a seat that

hasn't been democratic in almost a century. so if you're the obama campaign, you're looking at every state. >> there's a bloomberg poll out today that has all sorts of troubles in here. it shows that 46% of independents say they definitely, definitely will not vote to re-elect president obama. he has some time to change that poll. when they say i'm definitely going to do something, it scares people. only 21% say they definitely will vote for the president. those are the people who are going to decide the outcome here. 62% of americans disapprove of the president's handling of the economy. only 33% approve. the president's job approval rating in this poll is 45%. that's the lowest of his presidency in that poll. the numbers here, though, that help the president are that more people trust him. >> right. >> on the economy than trust these republicans. how do you take that information and turn it into a campaign?

>> well, i mean, it's a defensive strategy to a certain degree. look, it's like the gop, there is a real -- it's -- the republican field is hugely unsettled. there's a dissatisfaction with the candidates up there. one week it's perry, one week romney. it's back on romney again. the administration is going to play hardball with that. that's good for them. at the end of the day, propose something to the american electorate. that's the challenge. in terms of getting people to the polls, he has to offer a vision for the next four years. it can't just be, i won't do what the republicans will do. it has to be something proactive and move the ball forward. that's the big challenge going into 2012. >> alex wagner of "the huffington post" and msnbc. despite his low job approval rating, voters say they trust the president more than republicans to fix the economy. former presidential adviser austan goolsbee joins me next to discuss how the president can get his jobs bill passed. and later, an exclusive interview with historian michael beshlosh.

he's listened to the jacque kennedy interviews conducted just months after her husband's assassination. he will tell us what surprised him the most. [ woman ] jogging stroller. you've been stuck in the garage while i took refuge from the pollen that made me sneeze. but with 24-hour zyrtec®, i get prescription strength relief from my worst allergy symptoms. so lily and i are back on the road again. with zyrtec® i can love the air®. so lily and i are back on the road again. actually, head & shoulders is for more than dandruff. it gives me a healthy scalp and great looking hair. does it do anything else for you? no? no? yes. [ male announcer ] head & shoulders. 7 benefits. 1 bottle.

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governor howard dean says the president's americans job act is brilliant politics. austan goolsbee joins me next to explain how good policy makes good politics. and later, rick perry went to liberty university today to court the religious right. the author of "god, no!" penn jillette joins me to talk about religion and politics. pxpñ

i love you, barack! >> i love you back. [ applause ] but if you love me, if you love me, you have to help me pass this bill. if you love me, you have to help me pass this bill. it starts with your help. >> that was 2 of the 24 times president obama called on congress to pass this bill in his 19-minute speech at north carolina state university in raleigh today. the president spoke to more than 9,000 people packed into the

school's unair-conditioned fieldhouse. the fired up crowd was a bright spot for the obama white house today. so, too, is a new poll that shows support for the american jobs act. the new cnn opinion research poll shows 43% of people support the proposals in the american jobs act while 35% oppose them. the individual proposals in the president's job bill poll even better. 58% support cutting the payroll tax for businesses. 64% support federal spending to build and repair bridges, roads and schools. 65% support extending the payroll tax holiday for employees. 74% support providing federal money to states to hire teachers and first responders. that last proposal, federal spending to hire teachers and first responders, is popular

with voters across the board. men, women, whites, non-whites, under 50, over 50, attended college, no college, democrat, dependent, republican, liberal, moderate, conservative, urban, suburban, rural, southern, midwestern. every single category of voters supports that proposal. except one category. the voters who support the tea party. 55% of voters who support the tea party oppose giving federal money to states to hire teachers and first responders and, of course, so do republicans in congress. joining me now is austan goolsbee, former chairman of president obama's council of economic advisers. he's now a professor of economics at the university of chicago's booth school of business. thanks for joining me tonight, austan. >> great to see you again, lawrence. >> this is one of the perfect examples of how good policy that can have the effect it's intended makes good politics. when you look at the support numbers for the individual

components of the bill in that poll, it's really quite extraordinary. is there a way to translate that support for individual components -- this is something we saw in the health care legislation, too, individual components of the bill had much more support than the overall legislative package. is there a way to translate that kind of support into momentum legislatively? >> you know, i certainly hope so. that's got to be the challenge the white house has is just to get out the door and into people's heads what's actually in the bill. because, you know, the environment in washington is so partisan and poisonous just because one side's saying it's obama's jobs bill, you have some groups of people saying, oh, then they're against it. i think if you start looking at the components, the components do make a lot of sense and i would just wish everybody on all sides would take a step back and just -- the economy is in a serious spot. we have the events in europe are

really scary. we've taken some heavy blows this year. we were growing fairly well in 2010. 2011 we slowed down a lot because of these things that we can't roll. we have to do something. and this isn't a game. so i hope people can try to get out of the gamesmanship mentality and if it's some parts of that -- i hope it's the whole thing. i mean, i think what's in that package strikes me as makes a lot of sense. >> now, the front-runner in the republican primaries right now, rick perry, at the republican debate just says the president's stimulus package, the recovery act, created zero jobs. that's his number. zero jobs. what's the response, what's the democratic response to that that doesn't sound like an economics professor talking? i'm going to ask an economics professor to give me the english language campaign response to that. >> i mean, one is we can go back

and try to get the data and look at 2 1/2, 3 years ago what was happening. we're losing 800,000 jobs a month. we turned that around. we come out of a deep hole. there's every reason to think that these nonpartisan, whether it be the congressional budget office or the private guys, who strongly disagree with governor perry are correct. i in some sense i don't think we should do that. rather than argue about what or how successful these programs were three years ago, why not acknowledge that we're in a different moment? look, at that moment when the president takes office, the data now shows that's the worst six months in the 64 years that we've had data. and there wasn't a private sector that you could turn to. you couldn't say, well, let's have some tax cuts and hope the private sector does it themselves. because at that moment the government was the only choice there was. now we're in a different moment,

but it's still a scary moment. i mean, we've slowed down. the job market is still -- we still have a very high unemployment rate. you have the ill winds blowing from europe. we had the events in japan. we've had oil prices. the question of what we should do now i think is those aspects that could help the private sector stand up. you saw the president in his speech outline a bunch of those. tax cuts for 150 million workers. tax cuts to the employers. tax cuts for investment. and then let's rebuild the infrastructure of the country. i mean, i -- somebody told me that 20% of the bridges in john boehner's own district were rated as either about to fall down or something. whatever was the lowest category. i mean, it's across the country -- you can get 14 kinds of coffee, but you can't get to the coffee shop without driving through a pothole. i mean, that's a mess.

>> i just want you to listen to one more thing the president said when he was talking about the republicans and their political attitude toward this bill. let's listen to what the president had to say. >> some of them were quoted as saying even if they agreed with some of the things in the bill, it would give me a win. give me a win? give me a break. we're in a national emergency. you have folks that are purposefully divided. purposefully. thinking just in terms of how does this play out in terms of this election? >> well, he doesn't sound like an economics professor there. national emergency. is that the level that the president has to go to in order to get voter attention here? >> look, he might. i think it is a national emergency. i mean, how could you not view it as emergency? then you look at all this stuff happening around the world. i mean, there are a lot of big problems.

we have to get the economy growing. if the president's right and there are people saying that, those people should be ashamed of themselves. i mean, when the unemployment rate is 9%, to be thinking, yes, that would help the economy but let's not do it anyway, that's sad. >> i hate to think we live in a country that only recognizes the emergency when the bridge actually falls. austan goolsbee, thanks for joining me tonight. >> great to see you again, lawrence. coming up, michael beschloss joins me in a last word exclusive to guide us through the just released tapes of jacqueline kennedy describing her life with jfk. in the rewrite tonight, rick perry cannot stop talking about being a devoted follower of jesus christ. he is as devoted a follower of pontius pilot. [ male announcer ] you never know when a moment might turn into something more. and when it does men with erectile dysfunction

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in october 1962, the united states and soviet union came close to nuclear war. the president remained at the white house throughout the crisis and we now know so did the first lady, jacqueline kennedy. at her own request. coming up, a "last word" exclusive with presidential historian michael beschless of how the just released audio tapes are adding to our understanding of american history. later, penn jillette joins me on rick perry's campaign to become christian in chief. [ hayden ] what if there was a makeup

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when jacqueline kennedy a that died on may 19th, 1994, "the new york times" obituary -- she is silent no more. in 1964, jacqueline kennedy gave a seven part taped interview to former white house aide arthur schlessinger jr. four months after kennedy's assassination. five decades later, we're hearing those conversations for the first time. in a newly released book accompanied by 8 1/2 hours of audio, jacqueline kennedy, historic conversations on life with john f. kennedy. the revealing conversation shows sides of the first lady never seen before. here she is on her reaction to the cuban missile crisis.

>> i said, please don't send me away to camp david, you know, me and the children. please don't send me anywhere. if anything happens, we're all going to stay right here with you. and, you know, i said, even if there's not room in the bomb shelter in the white house, which i'd seen, i said, please then i just want to be on the lawn when it happens. you know, but i just want to be with you and i want to die with you and the children do, too. than live without you. so he said he wouldn't send me away. he didn't really want to send me away, either. >> and the first lady was very open in her discussion of lyndon johnson in the role of vice president. >> it was so funny because jack thinking of being vice president and how awful it would be gave lyndon so many things to do. he never did them. he could have done more with the space thing.

he just never wanted to make any decision or do anything that would put him in any position. so what he would really like to do is go on these trips and he never liked -- jack would say, you can never get an opinion out of lyndon at any cabinet or national security meeting. he'd just say that he agreed with them or just keep really quiet. i think it's so pathetic when all you can find to do with a president who's dying to give you a lot to do is take a state trip to luxembourg and belgium. so that's the kind of vice president he was. but jack always said he was never disloyal or spoke anywhere. bobby told me this later, and i know jack said it to me sometimes. he said, oh, god, can you ever imagine what would happen to the country if lyndon was president? >> joining me now for on exclusive interview, the man who wrote the introduction to the

book, historian michael beschloss. thanks for joining me tonight. >> thanks for asking me. >> in today's "new york times" maureen dowd wrote, she maintains her reputation of jfk's best image wizard, a novelistic observer of history and the most compelling political spouse we'll ever see. is that a reasonable summary of the jacqueline kennedy tapes? >> i rarely disagree with maureen on some things and i sure don't here. i think that's right. one of the things that really is a surprise about this book is that she had so many different opinions about people, very strong ones. pro and con. that we had a little bit of a hint of. but i think the surprise is that these things had political impact. before this book, i think you would not have put jacque kennedy among the key political figures of the kennedy administration. she did a lot more historical preservation and certainly a lot for culture in the white house.

but you see the number of opinions that she had about people who worked for john kennedy. she even talks about urging of the president to fire his secretary of state dean rusk. he says, well, i can't because he has nowhere to go, he burned his bridges with the rockefeller foundation which is where he used to be. she said, couldn't you find something for him so you can get rid of him? kennedy, according to her, was resolved to let rusk go by the end of the term, without her influence. >> that's such an interesting point. i'm going to play another piece of tape right now, you get the opposite impression, the part of the tape on how she formed her political views. let's listen to that. >> in my marriage, i could never conceive. and i remember i said it in an interview once. all these women, we got all these letters. someone said, where do you get your opinions? i said, i get all my opinions from my husband. which is true.

how could i have any republic opinions? his were the best. >> you said she did have some of her opinions. >> john kennedy would be surprised to hear all her opinions came from him. they both had very strong views. you have to go back, lawrence, these were the times. this was 1964, women in her social group particularly -- it was not considered attractive for a woman or a first lady to have all sorts of opinions that were at variants of those with her husband. the other thing is, remember in these tapes she's making an effort to do what jfk never got to do, tragically, which is this is almost in lieu of his memoirs, to make the case for john kennedy as president. that case would not be served by saying i had all sorts of opinions that differed from my husband. >> let's listen to what she said about martin luther king jr. during that time. everyone listening will find out

it turned out to be full of irony. >> when he said what an incredible speaker he was during the freedom march thing. he told me the tape the fbi had of martin luther king when he was here for the freedom march and he said this with no bitterness or anything, how he was calling up all these girls and arranging for a party of men and women. i mean, sort of an orgy in the hotel and everything. i said, jack, that's so terrible. that man is such a phony then. >> michael, your reaction when you heard that part of the tape? >> well, you remember i was talking about a point in time, this was specifically spring of 1964. robert kennedy was filling her ears with what j. edgar hoover was telling him from wiretaps that was on martin luther king's telephones and eavesdropping on his rooms and so forth. that king was doing these

things. particularly that king had made fun of president kennedy's funeral. if you have to say one thing that would have alienated jacque kennedy at that point, it would be something like that. she wasn't sure if it was true nor was bobby. at least the idea he might have was enough to make her very angry. >> presidential historian michael beschloss. thanks for joining us tonight, michael. >> pleasure, lawrence. coming up, it took a wrestling match with god for rick perry to find religion. penn jillette, author of "god, no!" joins me to discuss that one. and in the rewrite, what rick perry doesn't understand about economics and the lesson in the crucifixion of jesus christ. important phone call i made. when i got my medicare card, i realized i needed an aarp... medicare supplement insurance card, too. medicare is one of the great things about turning 65, but it doesn't cover everything. in fact, it only pays up to 80% of your part b expenses.

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time for tonight's rewrite. republicans are feared and get laughed at because of their denials of science, their recklessness about raising the debt ceiling, their

unwillingness to separate church and state and their apparent belief that government gets everything it tries to do wrong except when it decides to kill people. >> governor perry, a question about texas. your state has executed 234 death row inmates, more than any other governor in modern times. have you -- >> there is so much madness and so many lies flying around the republican debates that it's hard to keep track of all of them. here's one that passes uncontested by most debate moderators and is ignored by most commentators who are busy dealing with more dramatic nuttiness in the republican debates. >> he had $800 billion worth of stimulus in the first round of stimulus. it created zero jobs. $400 billion-plus in this package.

i can do the math on that one. half of zero jobs is zero jobs. >> okay. in fact, as everyone watching this show knows, the president's stimulus package actually created millions of jobs. it also saved state and local government jobs for workers who would have been laid off if their states had not been suddenly flooded with federal cash. in the state of texas, alone, the stimulus created at least 125,000 jobs. indeed, the great perry success story of surging employment in texas during his tenure as governor is largely attributable to government jobs. it is also mythology, of course, because it has a higher unemployment rate than many other states. in the decade that rick perry has been the governor of texas, his state has added 287,400 government jobs. in fact, the number of

government jobs in texas has grown at more than double the rate of private sector employment during perry's tenure. but republicans will continue to laugh at the idea that the stimulus created jobs just as they laugh at any discussion of the science of evolution. the biggest liar about government jobs in texas, rick perry, will probably be able to get away with his lies in the debates because no matter how many public school teachers get hired to teach their children, no matter how many police officers pull them over for drunk driving, no matter how many of their relatives and friends get jobs as prison guards, no matter how many air traffic controllers save them from dying every day, it has become a matter of religious belief for republicans that government does not create jobs. the republican grip on reality

has been loosening every day for years now. we are moving ever closer to the point where the diagnosis of their collective dementure may have to declare them lost to reality forever. how much more lost can these people get? >> your state has executed 234 death row inmates. >> those people believe this. >> america is going to be guided by some set of values. the question is going to be, whose values? it's those christian values this country was based upon. >> the good christian, rick perry, will continue to be cheered by the lynch mobs in the presidential debate audiences who don't seem to know christianity was found on the

teachings of a man who was unfairly put to death by government. executed. rick perry style. republicans have been asked many times to consider what would jesus do when faced with governing questions of how we should share our burdens. tonight i ask republicans to consider what would rick perry do if some 2,000 years ago he had been the prefect of the roman province of judaiah instead of pontius pilate? i don't want healthy skin for a day. i want healthy skin for life. [ female announcer ] don't just moisturize, improve the health of your skin with aveeno daily moisturizing lotion. the natural oatmeal formula goes beyond 24-hour moisture. it's clinically proven to improve your skin's health in one day, with significant improvement in 2 weeks. for healthy, beautiful skin that lasts.

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rick perry's campaign for christian in chief took him to liberty university, today, in lynchburg, virginia, where he sought votes not by outlining his positions on the governing issues of the day but by his false and public piety. >> what i learned as i wrestled with god is i didn't have to have all the answers. that they would be revealed to me in due time. and that i needed to trust him. my faith journey is not the story of someone who turned to god because i wanted to. it was because i had nowhere else to turn. trust that god wouldn't have put you here unless he had a unique plan for your life. he who knows the number of drops in the ocean, he counts the

sands in the desert. he knows you by name. you're never alone. >> joining me now, "the last word's" senior religion analyst penn jillette. author of the current "new york times" bestseller "god, no! signs you may already be an atheist and other magical tales." thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> when rick perry thought he had nowhere else to turn, didn't want to turn to god but thought he had nowhere else to turn but turned to god, where would you have suggested he turned? >> i suggest they turn to people. i think there's a certain kind of love of humanity that i'd like to see more in there than just this desperation and this clawing and the going inside himself which he calls god. >> now, he's not the only republican candidate who gets rather religious in public

discussion. i want you to listen to something michele bachmann said a couple years ago about she's actually explaining, you know, a lot of people think she's attractive. i think that's a fair opinion about michele bachmann which some people say she's hot. she explains here why god thinks she's hot. let's listen to that. >> today if you watch tv, a lot of times you'll see young people on tv and they'll say, she's hot. or they'll say, he's hot. what does god say when he looks at you or when he looks at me? he wants to say, she's hot. he's hot. because we are hot for him. on the inside. amen. when you are hot for jesus christ, there is nothing that is like that life. he changes the world through hot people. >> are you familiar -- >> wait a minute. are you going because you think i don't have a question? because i don't. i don't have a question. >> i do. >> go. >> i do. are you familiar with powe's

law? >> go. >> powe's law -- you can find that on wikipedia. powe's law is that if someone is speaking very strong christian rhetoric, it's impossible to separate it from satire. you cannot tell if they are kidding. there's no way to tell. if that were on "saturday night live" with someone saying it, i would not question it for a second. there's no way to tell that from perry. no way at all. >> want to try another michele bachmann bit? >> yeah. >> she has another thing here about god and natural disasters. let's listen to that. >> i don't know how much god has to do to get the attention of the politicians. we had an earthquake, we've had a hurricane. he said, are you going to start listening to me here? >> now, why wouldn't an earthquake and a hurricane get the attention of politicians? she has a point there. >> i think it did. i think it did. that seems to me -- i can't believe she gets away with that to anybody.

that seems so heartless. it's also -- her tone of voice is so kind of -- she's kind of kidding, right? is she kind of kidding. >> later she said she was kidding. >> kidding is even worse? isn't kidding worse? isn't it worse to kind of have -- >> you're the religion analyst. i'm not sure -- i really -- i don't get any of this. >> if it's a joke that god is -- if it's a joke about god communicating with people through earthquakes and hurricanes, that's a joke i don't think i would try to get away with in public. >> where -- how did we get to this point? i mean, this discussion -- reagan didn't talk this way. >> i think it's desperation. the number of nonreligious people in this country is growing at unbelievable rates. it has at least quadrupled in the past ten years. >> you're scaring michele bachmann into talking that way? >> there's no doubt about it. the earthquake did hit exactly when my ok