>> perry trying to lump romney in with obama and hammering him on romney care. >> they've already dumped the whole book on perry. >> let's talk about the straight talking governor from the state of texas. >> whether it's obama care or whether it's perry care. of course, the chief lobbyist for the drug company was the former chief of staff for the governor. something that's called phony capitalism. >> you're seeing mitt romney take a shot at rick perry on social security. >> you have romney trashing mr. job creation for losing jobs. >> my opponent who served as the governor of massachusetts, while he was the governor, his job record, his job ranking, was 47th in the nation. >> revealed yesterday that the massachusetts plan killed 18,000 jobs. >> what texas miracle? >> the jobless rate there that we just learned this afternoon, that increased to 8.5% in august. that's the highest level in more than 24 years.

so some might ask, how's perry going to spend that? >> you have the texas miracle meeting, the texas chain saw massacre right now. rick perry and mitt romney are showing they're in it to win it. they are not trying to keep their vice presidential options opened. the romney/perry fight over social security, alone, is sharp enough that it seems to leave little possibility of them being able to appear on the same ticket together. today, in iowa, perry went off script and slipped back into the hole he dug for himself by calling social security a ponzi scheme. >> i've talked to paul ryan today and told him i said, i thank you for having the courage

to stand up and talking about this and i said i'm proud to join you in this discussion with america for clearly calling the social security program that we have in place today broken. it is broken. kids know they're paying into something that's not going to be there into the future is called a ponzi scheme. and i don't have a -- you know, i don't make any apologies for calling the program what it is. >> and perry continues to hammer romney on romney's biggest campaign vulnerability. >> government mandated, government-run health care. it is part of what he put in place as the governor of massachusetts. it is time -- i think it's very important that we put someone as our nominee that does not blur the lines between president obama and the republican party. >> but now perry blurs that line with his own health care mandate

problem. >> as a mom of three daughters, i believe that parents are the ones who should decide whether or not our young daughters should receive injections for sexually transmitted diseases. whether it's obama care or whether it's perry care, i oppose any governor for president who mandates a family's health care choices and in turn violates the rights of parents on these issues. >> joining me now, jonathan alter, an msnbc political analyst and the columnist for "the bloomberg view" and christine antoney, for "roll call." jonathan, the game is really on here. it's obviously a two-man race. michele bachmann is not really in it. she's obviously a factor. she's going to continue to cause problems for both of them. this is perry versus romney for the presidential nomination and neither one of them seems to be softening any punches so that

they might preserve for themselves the possibility of the vice presidential nomination. >> yeah, that's right. they're also violating what ronald reagan called the 11th commandment. thou shalt not criticize another republican. and actually we have had party contests that have been much more polite than this. you really did not see hillary clinton and barack obama going at each other this fiercely and certainly not this early. we could have six, seven, eighth months of this. it's a little hard to know where they're going to go from here. and it's a sign of just how addicted republicans have been to rhetorical shots. this is what their party is about. taking pot shots. it's not about ideas. it used to be much more a party of ideas. now it's a party of insults. usually those insults are directed at democrats and

liberals. once you get in the habit of just running your politics through insults and negative research, then you turn on each other. >> christina, jonathan's point i think is quite important. the last big presidential primary fight we saw, the clinton versus obama, did not include specific attacks on each other's records. the historical distinction between them was simply that barack obama was against the invasion of iraq and hillary clinton voted for it. that's about where it began and ended. here you have these two governors. they each have things in their records that are serious problems that have developed with a republican primary electorate. where do they go in terms of trying to preserve that notion of reagan's that we should really be fighting against the incumbent democrat even during the republican primary instead of slamming each other? is slamming each other going to be the way they find themselves

trying to win this thing? is this what we're going to see all the way through or are they going to get over this little fit and get back at aiming at obama? >> i'm sure they will get back at aiming at obama eventually. i would actually dis agragree w both of you on this. the fight between hillary clinton and barack obama was tough. they didn't throw insults at one another the way you're seeing this. it's easy to say perry care, obama care, romney care. the debates have been intense. right about this time in the cycle in 2007 you had the july youtube debate. that's when things elevated. barack obama was asked if he'd sit todown and negotiate with leaders in iran. hillary clinton stepped that up. there was a question of whether they could come together. she's the secretary of state now. the democrats should not get excited about this. one of the other things that happened in 2008 was the whole nation was captivated by that democratic primary fight,

particularly because it lasted so long but also because it was so interesting in dynamic and had a lot of fireworks. the more the nation is engaged in getting to know these republican candidates, that's not necessarily that great for barack obama when he's trying to get out there and get his message across. i think it's definitely going to be an interesting few months. >> jonathan, we saw in that last democratic version of this with barack obama and hillary clinton that the primary process strengthened barack obama as a presidential candidate. is that the possible outcome here that if the perry or romney nominee will be strengthened by this? it certainly looks like romney has stepped up his game in this fight. >> no question about it. it puts them in a fighting trim and it actually puts the president in a little bit of a disadvantage. his debating skills and fisticuff skills will be rustier when the general election campaign starts. and he has to start ripping into the republicans. he's not particularly food at

that anyway. and these other two will have a lot more practice going forward. but they're also developing some pretty good video for the obama campaign to use. you know, perry is turning into a piece of household knowledge that romney was 47th out of 50th in job creation when he was governor of massachusetts. that's a pretty good rejoinder for barack obama in a fall campaign when romney starts in on stewardship of the economy. and at the same time, when romney starts going after perry on social security, that will be enormously useful to obama in the fall. >> and christina, the obama campaign doesn't have what you could call the attention-getting advantage of a primary campaign right now, but it is scoring points. every time romney or perry scores points against the other,

those are in effect points scored for the obama campaign in a general election. because you've damaged that image. romney is in a position to damage somewhat perry's image of job creation in texas. obviously perry can damage romney's image in different ways. and so those shots that they're taking ultimately are to the profit of the obama campaign as it sits on the sidelines and watches it. >> yeah. and they're also using this as a really, an organizing tool for them. because right now you have a lot of democrats that are, yes, dissatisfied, yes, doing grumbling about what obama has and has not been able to achieve. they're not liking this republican field. they're looking at it and getting more and more nervous that president obama could lose in 2012. the obama campaign is talking to those people, getting them to get out in their neighborhoods and build the grassroot organizing they were successful at in 2007 and 2008.

they look at this as, well, let the republicans fight it out. we're going to continue to highlight none of the republicans -- very inpefrequeny do the republicans talk about the middle class. they're trying to draw the distinctions though they don't have a rival yet. >> scary perry is a good message for the obama campaign. more than scary romney. romney doesn't scare a lot of people. he might creep some democrats out. they're not as terrified of them as they are perry. that will help with intensity. there has been some problem with that in the obama campaign. as david axelrod pointed out this morning, democrats are pretty united behind barack obama. for all the grumbling you hear and the chattering classes, his numbers, over 80% approval among democrats. pretty healthy. even healthier than they were for bill clinton in 1995. >> that's right. let's take a look at the latest "new york times"/cbs poll that

came out in the last couple hours to see the rankings in the republican president primary field. you have 23% now, 23% in this poll supporting rick perry. romney, 16%. which is not that big a gap between the two of them there. and then the next thing that you pick up in the polling is in terms of magnitude is an undecided of 12%. 10% saying they just don't know. which i'm not sure quite what the difference is between undecided and don't know. there is a second tier here. single digit second tier that we should take a look at as we're looking at the total rankings here. michele bachmann comes in at 7%. newt gingrich at 7%. herman cain at 5%. ron paul at 5%. we don't have santorum showing up there in this poll. christina, at some point, all those also-rans are going to drop out. at some point. they're 7% of support for michele bachmann. 5% for herman cain.

is going to migrate somewhere. as i look at that, it looks like that support is more likely to migrate to perry. more likely to go in what is perceived as the more conservative choice. so when we really do get down to two man, does that indicate what we're seeing here now, that perry's lead will widen in a two-man race? >> i mean, that's certainly a possible scenario, but a couple of things you said there i think we should examine. first of all, i would not suggest that bachmann will be leaving the race any time soon. she's able to raise money. she certainly can stick in there. this could be a very long primary season going through multiple states. if she has the money to keep going, she might do it because perry could slip up. her supporters are very conservative. his supporters are conservative. they might flock to her. is that scenario likely? i don't actually know. we'll find out. i think that's very possible. you're already seeing the sort of divide among the candidates with former minnesota governor

tim pawlenty coming out and endorsing romney. you're seeing that a little more moderate, little bit more establishment. candidates getting back behind romn romney. there are elements of the former bush administration that quietly back romney but don't want to get involved. you have the anti-establishment. the herman cain voters and the ron paul voters though the two of them are sparring. they could definitely side with perry. i definitely would not call this a full two-man race just yet. >> the other thing, lawrence, is that we don't talk at all in these conversations about independent voters who because there is no contest on the democratic side will vote in the republican primaries in states with open primaries. where they're allowed to do so. their views are not picked up by a lot of these polls which is why i think it's too early to rule out jon huntsman. tom ridge just endorsed him. is he likely to get the nomination? obviously not. but it would be silly at an

early stage to rule anybody out and you could see a situation where perry knocks -- beats romney badly in iowa then romney is very vulnerable in new hampshire to somebody else. there are a lot of different ways this could go and there's a long history of these things turning out very differently than they looked even in december of a year prior to an election. a lot can change. >> christina, to your point about how long michele bachmann and ron paul will stay in, it seems to me ron paul will stay in until the very end. he can campaign on a shoe string. he's going to stay on the debate stages as long as anyone's going to stay on them. the two of them, michele bachmann and ron paul, those are the two candidates who actually end up causing the most trouble for both perry and romney in these debates because they are the ones who are absolutely fearless in taking just vicious shots at those front-runners. both to get attention and also

because of their true real conservative beliefs that they think have been violated in bachmann's case, for example, by the perry mandate on taking a vaccine. in romney's case by all sorts of things including the health care mandate in massachusetts. if you're perry and romney, you have to be praying for those two to drop out. >> i don't know about dropping out or any sort of prayer involved there. balk pan in particular has taken every opportunity she can to reinsert herself in the conversation. today what she did with perry care, everybody was talking about that. her attacks on perry and romney come off as very sharp, authent authentic. she knows what she's doing. she has people working for her and decent political instincts. perry seems to be weathering these attacks. his standings have not dropped in the polls. this is continuing to be a very close race. jonathan is exactly right about the independents who are going

to participate. i talked to a democrat yesterday who's going to be voting in new hampshire in the republican primary and probably going to vote for huntsman. so, you know, there's definitely an element of that here and, you know, we're months away. >> lawrence, can i just make a quick point about michele bachmann and collateral damage? her comments about -- the crazy comments about somebody getting mental retardation from, you know, this vaccine, that will lead to the deaths of american women. probably of a conservative -- their parents will hear something like that, they won't allow them to be vaccinated. a certain percentage of them in the, you know, future, will develop cancer because they were not vaccinated. there's a reason for those vaccinations. it prevents cancer. if you don't get it, you're more likely to get cancer. some of those folks will die. sometimes the consequences of what gets said in political

campaigns is assessed in immediate political terms and not in its more distant human terms. i'm afraid we will look back at michele bachmann's contributions in raising that issue up and it's going to lead some people to lose their lives unfortunately. >> jonathan, we're going to expand on that very point in the next segment. msnbc political analyst jonathan alter of "the bloomberg view" and christina bellantoe from "roll call." thanks for joining me. >> thanks, lawrence. >> have a great weekend. coming up, what is the truth about the hpv drug which made this big debate fight? former hous policy adviser dr. zeke emanuel joins me next. later, how strong is president obama's support among democrats? much, much stronger than you think. [ male announcer ] this...is the network.

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try to scare the parents of 12-year-old girls in this country in the hopes of catching up with the republican presidential front-runner. we'll give you the truth about the hpv vaccine and we're going to give it to you from an actual doctor. we'll also look at the politics of health care. that's going to be next. and later, mitt romney and rick perry, they share a little secret. something that they don't want voters to know about them. we will, of course, reveal those secrets in the "rewrite." [ male announcer ] every day, thousands of people are switching from tylenol to advil. here's one story. i'm sean. i switched to advil 10 months ago. cyclists are a crazy bunch. when you're out there trying to push to your limits,

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doctor, a scientist or making any conclusions about the drug one way or another. >> do you apologize for that remark? >> i'm not going to answer that. >> here is what michele bachmann is not apologizing for. >> i had a mother last night come up to me here in tampa, florida, after the debate. she told me that her little daughter took that vaccine, that injection, and she suffered from mental retardation thereafter. >> leading pediatric bioethical and medical groups have come out to refrute the notion that the hpv vaccine causes, quote, mental retardation" as michele bachmann told it. because of this bachmann has spent most of her time in recent days on the defensive. >> i'm not attesting to the woman's comments, only that she made them to me again. it was completely unsolicited. as soon as the debate was over, i had gone to the foot of the stage. when i was there a woman was

crying she. thanked me for my remarks and told me her daughter had a very negative reaction. >> bioethicist arthur kaplan of the university of louisiana is challenging michele bachmann to produce a verified hpv vaccine victim in one week. if she can back up her claims, kaplan says he will donate $10,000 to a charity of her choice. if not, kaplan says bachmann should donate $10,000 to a pro-vaccine group. joining me now is one of kaplan's colleagues, dr. zeke emanuel, chair of the department of medical ethics and health policy at the school of medicine, university of pennsylvania. he was the obama administration special adviser on health policy to the office of management and budget. thank you very much for joining me tonight, dr. emanuel. >> thank you for having me. >> first of all right off the bat, let's get to side effect possibilities from the hpv vaccine which is administered to 12-year-old girls. parents have been nervous about

this since this erupted at the republican presidential debate. what can you tell us? >> let me make a few points. first, the profile of side effects is comparable to other vaccines that are mandated like vaccines for mumps and measles and things like that. it's no more and no less. second, last time it was looked at, there had been 23 million people who had received the vaccine in about 100 countries and about 12,000 reported adverse events with less than 1,000 of those being serious. the main adverse events people get are some annoyance inflammation, itching, redness at the injection site and there are some more serious complications like thrombo and emboly that develop. some girls do faint, that's 12-year-old girls. that's about the main serious problems. >> dr. emanuel, what do you make

of the politics of this, within the republican party? you've been involved in the obama administration. your brother was white house chief of staff. now mayor of chicago. you know a little something about this kind of thing when it intersects with politics. how should the republicans deal with this going forward? >> first of all, i know very little about politics. i try to stick to the policy and the medicine which is what i do know. but i do think that the real issue here, for the republicans than the country, we need to stick to the science, we need to stick to what the experts say and we should not do what michele bachmann did is to find a mother, hear a story and portray that as the truth. we know that led to serious problems when people were talking about autism from vaccines which has been disproven by studies. and similarly we know that the research here by the cdc, by follow-up of use of this vaccine

that it's very safe and that, in fact, it's much better that girls, 12-year-olds, get the vaccine. the estimate is that each year it would prevent, if all 12-year-olds got it, 3,300 cases of cervical cancer. not to mention other potential cancers that the virus is associated with. penil cancer for boys, anal cancer. we really need to stick to the science and try to get politics out of this. >> what about the mandating of this vaccine? there are questions about this from the left and the right whether it should be mandated. recommending it, medically, that's one thing, but government mandate on this vaccine, how would you advise a governor who was considering as perry was a mandate for this vaccine? >> i think as a public health person you would want girls to get this. again, it's cost effective. the longer we wait to immunize

people, the less number of cases you prevent, the lower the impact. and, you know, if i told most parents i could give your kid something to prevent them from getting cancer in the future, won't get rid of all cancers, but this particular type of cancer, wouldn't you want that for your child? of course you would. the only reason this thing is mixed up in politics is because of -- it has to do with sex somehow and because we have had this growing anti-vaccine movement not based upon the science but based upon fear and stories that are unverifiable. >> dr. zeke emanuel from the university of pennsylvania. thank you very much for your invaluable clarifications on this issue. thanks for joining us. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. coming up, is the obama administration really in trouble? rumors of white house infighting and worry among democrats have team obama going on the offensive. and later, no rumors here.

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this breaking news is coming to us from reno, nevada. a vintage plane has crashed near the audience at an air race. a reno air race spokesman

describes the crash as, quote, a mass casualty situation. but the number of injuries and possible fatalities is not yet known. the plane is reportedly a world war ii era fighter plane. a p-51 mustang. according to the local nbc affiliate, krnv. the pilot is 80 years old. his condition is not known. the event is being held at the national championship air races. it draws thousands every year to watch both civilian and military planes. we're going to show you this shocking video again. this is a vintage world war ii plane at an air show in nevada. it crashes near the audience. early reports said it crashed in the stands. we can see in this video that it was near the stands but did not actually hit the stands where

the audience is. we do not know, do not know how many possible fatalities might be involved. we do not know how many injuries may be involved in this crash at this air show near reno, nevada. this is video we've just obtained here from our local nbc affiliate krnv in nevada. this video is all we have at this time. you an see the crash site close to the stands. we will keep following this situation and update you with any new facts we can get on it within this hour. all right. still to come in this hour, we will show you the letter president obama's top campaign

adviser david axelrod is writing to each of the major news networks amid reports of trouble for the white house and the re-election campaign. and later, the very first thing you ever learned about rick perry and mitt romney is not true. and that's because those two men want it that way. their secrets will be revealed in tonight's "rewrite." ♪ ♪ ♪ when your chain of supply ♪ goes from here to shanghai, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ chips from here, boards from there ♪ ♪ track it all through the air, that's logistics. ♪

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everyone will find out soon enough i think that something's happening. ♪ ♪ in the spotlight tonight, the obama campaign addresses concerns with the president's reelection chances three days after a new york congressional district elected its first republican in 88 years. obama campaign senior strategist david axelrod sent a memo today to sunday show producers saying, quote, members of the media have focused on the president's approval rating as if they existed in a black box.

axelrod noted approval ratings for the republican brand and congress were tat historic lows. he continued "despite what you hear in elite commentary the president's support among base voters and in key demographic groups has stayed strong. according to the latest nb nbc/"wall street journal" poll democrats approve of his performance by an 81% to 14% margin, stronger than president obama's support among democrats at this point in his term and according to gallup stronger than any democratic president dating back to harry truman through this point in their presidency. the president echoed his campaign chief's confidence last night telling an audience at a $35,000 per ticket dnc fund

raiser in washington, i know that over the last couple of months there have been democrats who voiced concerns and nervousness about, well, in this kind of economy, aren't these just huge headwinds in terms of your re-election? and i just have to remind people that here's one thing i know for certain, the odds of me being re-elected are much higher than the odds of me being elected in the first place. joining me now, npr white house correspondent, ari shapiro. thank you very much for joining me tonight, ari. >> pleasure to be with you, lawrence. >> i don't think anyone out there was thinking this before david axelrod's memo that this democratic president sits in a stronger position with democrats, with his base, than any other previous democratic president in my lifetime and before. that the imagery out there is of the weakening of candidate obama. >> it all depends on the angle you look at it.

tonight there was a new "new york times"/cbs poll that showed his overall approval rating at 43%. 53% approval rating. groups that helped him get into office in the first place, whether suburban voters, working class voters, minority voters. i don't dispute what david axelrod says. there are a lot of bad statistics for president obama out there as well as the re-election campaign knows. what axelrod says sounds to me a lot like what he was saying in 2010 which is our numbers, whatever they may be, are far better than the republicans' numbers. the re-election campaign is trying to frame this as a choice between the democrats and the republicans. the republicans are going to frame it as a referendum on president obama and whether voters see it as one or the other could ultimately make the difference in whether president obama is re-elected or not. >> the president is in a

presidency that is embattled with congressional republicans and so i want to go back to that slide that we just had up about the poll to look at republicans in congress. they are polling with a 19% approval compared to the president's 43% approval. the republicans in congress have a 72% disapproval. now, that is not of any individual, but it certainly is -- in terms of the fight that the president is in day to day in his day job of president of the united states, his approval versus the party he's struggling with day-to-day is more than double what their approval is. >> that's right. i'm sure president obama wishes he were running for re-election against house speaker john boehner. as you say, in the day-to-day job that president obama has to do, he feels he has more arrows in his quiver than the congressional republicans. that's why he's confident going out to the american people day after day pushing his jobs bill

saying, tell congress to pass this bill because as little political capital as president obama may have today, the republicans in congress are even less popular. and in fact, poll numbers show that president obama's jobs bill is relatively popular even though, and this may seem contradictory, most americans seem to believe it won't to a tremendous amount to the employment numbers in the united states. >> i've actually been struck by how little public rumbling there's been, even unnamed public rumbling has occurred about the obama white house, especially after the losses in the 2010 election. democrats, they will turn on their own president very quickly. as jimmy carter can tell you. as bill clinton can tell you after they lost the midterms his first two years in. and it seems to me this white house has suffered very little of that, up to now. now there's this undercurrent of what's going on with white house chief of staff bill daley. is he disorganized, she ris he

running that ship the way he should? that's a standard kind of critique that occurs at this point in the presidency. isn't it? >> i spoke to someone who chatted with bill daley and he said, i expected to get six months in the chief of staff job before i started getting these stories, i got nine. so i figure i got three extra months. whatever complaints there may be about bill daley, the description of rahm emanuel, his predecessor has organized not what i would put at the top of the list of rahm emanuel's positive qualities. these are two different men. rahm emanuel acts like an octopus. he will do many people's jobs for them whether they want him to or not. d daley is more hands off. rahm kept in close contact with members of congress, many of who don't have contact with the white house now under bill daley which they feel upset about. i think if you're going to criticize bill daley for anything, you need to look at

the two things he was brought into the white house to do. number one, build relationships with republicans and number two, bring business onboard the obama agenda. the relationship with the republicans seems to be doing well, but the results aren't showing in policy and in the relationship with business, it just isn't coming across in things like the debt ceiling talks. >> ari shapiro of npr, thank you very much for joining usse tonight. >> you're welcome. we have new information on the breaking news story we brought you earlier. a vintage plane crash near the grandstand at an air show in reno, nevada. the associated press is reporting 75 injured, at least 25 critically injured. joining me now is andrew greco, reporter for krnv tv. andrew, what can you tell us about what we now know about the crash? >> well, lawrence, i think it goes without saying it's a very chaotic scene here at the reno stead airport. basically you have dozens of ambulances going in and out of

the airport grounds here. a lot of people i must say -- i've seen a lot of tears, a lot of people crying. some of these people have witnessed a crash -- according to these witnesses it was a p-51 plane that went up in the air. this is the national championship air races. this has gone on for four decades in the reno area. very popular event where the planes do wild stunts in the air. witnesses say the plane went up then started to come down and ultimately went into some type of a grandstands or vip area where there were people who were watching the event. so the question right now, how many people have been injured? how many possible casualties? we're waiting for word from law enforcement. of course, in this kind of emergency situation, law enforcement officials are running around doing their jobs. their priority, of course, not always to speak to the media right away. we're trying to find out exactly how many people injured, but as

i heard you say a minute ago, we're talking a lot of people. possibly dozens of people injured. and the question is at this point if anyone has died and if so, how many people have died. lawrence? >> andrew, from the video perspective that we have, we just have one shot of the actual crash. it seems like it could have been worse in that it doesn't go directly into the grandstand. it lands -- it hits at some distance from the grandstand. but you're now telling us that area away from the grandstand that we're seeing was actually a vip area? that was another area that did have a significant group of people in it? >> what i can tell you, lawrence, the information i'm getting, it is from witnesses at this point. a lot of the laurmw enforcement officials haven't stopped to talk to the media. a minute ago it came over the loud speakers here for the media to convene at a certain area at the airport. i'm sure we're about to get addressed by some of the

representatives here at the airport. i'm sure we're about to get addressed here any minute. i can tell you what the witnesses told me. they said it was possibly a vip area. i think the bottom line it was in an area where people were watching the races and i did speak to one witness. he was not injured but he tells me that he was in the area of the explosion and that he actually got knocked to the ground from the explosion. so as we were coming on scene here, i can tell you it was a mess here. of course, a lot of people trying to leave the stead airport and a lot of people, i must say, were crying and had their head in their hands and it was a, right now, a very somber scene and it's pretty unbelievable at this point. lawrence? lawrence, back to you. >> andrew greco of krnv tv reporting to us from reno. thanks for joining us. >> you're welcome. thank you. >> we'll be back with more as this story develops. to prepare. [ chickens clucking ]

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we have a continuing update on the breaking news tonight in reno, nevada. a vintage airplane crashed into the audience at an air race. witnesses tell the "reno gazette journal" that there are multiple fatalities. one man told the paper it's just like a massacre. it's like a bomb went off. he also said there are people lying all over the runway. a reno air race spokesman describes the crash as a, quote, mass casualty situation. according to the associated press, at least 75 people have been injured. 25 of those critically. with life threatening injuries. there are still no confirmed deaths. the plane is reportedly a world war ii era fighter plane, a p-51 mustang. according to the local nbc affiliate, krnv. we will be back with more as this story develops. [ male announcer ] this...is the network.

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we're following breaking news in reno, nevada. a vintage plane crashed into the crowd at an air show. the associated press says at least 75 people were injured. 25 critically. the scene on the ground is described as chaotic.

witnesses say there have been fatalities. but officials are not confirming any deaths. joining me now is mackenzie warren, a reporter for krnv. mackenzie, what do we know about the accident as of now? >> you know, lawrence, information's really sketchy right now. a pilot, jimmy leeward, he's 80 years old, an experienced movie stunt pilot, was flying in the race, the race everyone was waiting for. it turned very ugly very serious. crashed into a grandstand. the ap is saying 75 people hurt. from being here on the ground, i can tell you that's a conservative number. there are dozens of people hurting. bloodied. the triage here is unbelievable. ten ambulances. three helicopters by air. pulling people out. no idea what might have caused that. witnesses say they heard the engine rev then he just went down. i put in a call to the nevada national guard and they did say

that they received a may day. that's at least from some viewers that are sending me some tips. at this point, we have not been able to confirm casualties, though. they are calling this a mass casualty. keep in mind, this event draws hundreds of thousands of people all weekend long. friday night is really when it gets picking up. and this is when that crash happened. devastating scene. so many injured. and still trying to find out what happened and how many deaths there might have been. >> mackenzie, this event, the reno national championship air races, has a troubled history. in 2007 and 2008, 4 pilots were killed at this event over those two years. have they done anything to change their regulations or their safety procedures since 2008? >> yeah, you know, of course lawrence, they have enacted an emergency plan in light of those deaths.

that got put into place immediately when that plane went down. and i can tell you the faa has just arrived. this is the only pileon racing event in the entire world. it's incredibly dangerous. the planes are going faster than nascar. this is an element of danger, but they do have an emergency plan set in place and they say they use it. obviously that's a question that all of us reporters on the scene are going to be asking. could more have been done to prevent this given there have been accidents in the past? >> mackenzie, specifically in these kinds of races, wouldn't they have taken trouble to design the race course so that any kind of accident couldn't get near the audience? >> that's something we've asked them about, and it is pretty far -- to give you a sense of what i'm looking at, i'm here at the grandstand and where the planes actually race, the loop that they race, is quite far out there. that's what's leading up to

believe that something might have happened to this pilot. he's 80 years old. he was experienced so certainly they are not supposed to come this close to the grandstand. so that's something that we're asking and wondering how this plane could have gone down. >> krnv reporter mackenzie warren. thank you very much for updating us on this. >> thank you. >> more on this breaking news as it develops tonight. "the rachel maddow show" is up next. thanks to you at home. we begin with breaking news out of reno, nevada. a vintage aircraft has crashed into the stands at the national championship air races. officials say this is, a quote, mass casualty situation up. one witness describing it as just like a massacre. it's like a bomb went off. that's from an onsite witness. a video posted on youtube of the crash actually shows the moment of impact.