i don't believe that class warfare is leadership, and, you know, we can get into this tax the rich, tax the rich, but that is not the basis for america. it's not going to get our economy going again. at a time when spending is out of control giving the federal government more money would be like giving a cocaine addict more cocaine. >> to say that wealthy people should pay their fair share? that's outrageous. that's like saying when he calls for a middle class tax cut that's class warfare. simply to say that income tax should be redistributed in ways differently than it is today, whether you want to have more taxes on some groups or less on others is not class warfare. and that's cheap. >> good morning. it's tuesday, september 20th. welcome to "morning joe." >> you know it's class warfare. >> no.

>> when you tell me not to eat my big slurpee drinks. >> can we please have a closeup of what you are eating now? finally you have listened to me. >> no. >> there is no sticky bun. >> nope. >> it's class warfare. you rich people. i'm going to my high class gym and i'm eating my soy whatever you eat. >> yeah. >> that's me. >> working class heroes. that's something to be -- big mac. >> fancy. >> callouses on our fingers from eating all those big macs. >> do you know, joe. >> yes. >> at ciesin cinabon they'll gi extra frosting? >> it's amazing. >> i was there last night for dinner. >> really. surprised you're not wearing it. all right. >> i was in new jersey and i walked up to them and said, am i in heaven? they said, no. you're at cinnabon. >> a week's worth of calories in

one bun. i used to. >> every bite. >> sometimes that was the place i'd go for a respite. >> all right. >> i said, let's get this thing under control so we can go to cinnabon and i tell you, it worked. it worked. >> okay. >> how did we get there? >> yeah. all right. with us onset we have msnbc -- maybe this is how. msnbc contributor mike barnacle, financeer, "morning joe" analyst and pilot steve rapner joins us as well. >> we're in the no fly zone, mika. >> seriously. i'm horrified. >> so financeer, financeer. financier, so tell me, this obama plan, we get a lot of generalities in the newspapers.

he says the buffet rule is more guidelines. dig into the numbers for us. because right now you've got a lot of back and forth. it's class warfare. it's this. it's that. what does it look like to you? >> look, i think it's relatively simple. obama is saipg he is a progressive and is going to make policies that are progressive. a little later we're going to look at some charts that show what has happened to the average american over the past few years and this combination of proposals is really designed to do two things. one, it's designed to deal with the jobless rate in the short term. it's designed to deal with the deficit in the long term but designed to do that in a way that is very progressive. there is no progression that the wealthy are being asked to take the burden of the revenue increases to help bring the budget down. >> define wealthy. that number moves around in washington, d.c. what is wealthy as defined by this president and the tax increases? >> principally it's over $250,000 a year income.

what's interesting about this proposal is that it rolls back the bush tax cuts for the wealthiest those over $250,000. and then it also provides all kinds of limitations on deductions and other, in fact tax increases on those same people. what is an interesting contrast is that after he left the administration peter orz ag wrote a piece for the "new york times" in which he said roll back all the bush tax increases which would affect people from bottom to top. >> he said extend them for two years but then get rid of all of them. is that because there is so much money for the federal government to get back even below the $250,000? >> partly a matter of money but also fairness. his position everybody should pay more. the bush tax cuts were unjustifiable so raise everybody's taxes. and what obama is saying is, no. we're just going to raise them on people above $250,000. >> let's talk about the economics and the impact on society as a whole and then get to the news.

you have progressives saying the rich should pay more. you have conservatives and some moderates and some independents saying, well wait a second. 50% of americans. we're getting to a point where 50% of americans don't even pay income taxes anymore. yes they pay a lot of other taxes. i understand that but as far as income taxes go, it doesn't make sense. sort through this for me. you hear liberals say constantly the tax rate is lower than it's ever been in american history and yet fewer and fewer americans, 50% of americans almost, do not pay a dime. and if we move forward with this plan i suspect that number is going to probably go up more. >> i'm not sure that number goes up. the people who don't pay taxes typically have income below $40,000. >> so 50% of americans have income -- >> and as you say, they pay a lot of other taxes, particularly

social security. working americans pay the same social security that you do up to that $108,000 or so limit. that is not a particularly new phenomenon. it's been this way for a long time. and the view is that people at the top should simply pay more. >> what do you use the word "fairness" earlier. that's been troubling to a lot of republicans and conservatives. the president keeps saying they need to pay their fair share, their fair share. the argument is the top 5% of americans paid something like 60% of the taxes in the country. as a raging capitalist but also someone who supported president obama what do you make -- >> he's a capitalist. >> you are too because you and i agree on about 90% the issues. >> he is actually small government conservative but go ahead. >> what do you make of the concept of fair share? is that a legitimate way to frame this? >> fairness is to some degree in the eye of the beholder. you tell me what's fair.

let's take as a baseline, try to do it this way. if you go back to the clinton tax rates were they fair? does everybody think they were fair or not fair? i don't know. if you think they were fair then bush cut taxes substantially more for the wealthy than he did for the middle class and below that. obama -- if you want to call, the orzag idea goes right back to clinton. obama is saying let's go back to clinton but only for the people making above $250,000 a year. those below would keep their bush tax cuts so it would become a little more progressive, oriented toward the upper income, lower income people in terms of who pays what. there is no question about it. obama has put a stake in the ground. you can call it class warfare if you want. you can simply call it another view the world in which the people who have benefited the most in the last ten years and we have some charts on this today should pay a bit more than those who have really suffered over the last ten years.

>> explain to me then. last night president obama here in new york city had a fundraiser $38,000 per person to go to the fundraiser. i happened to bump into two of the people yesterday afternoon who were going to attend last night's fundraiser. obviously very wealthy. i'm in favor of tax reform as i think every american ought to be. they were laughing at his proposal saying this is never going to become law. it's a bumper sticker, not economic policy. >> well sure. that's a separate issue and you can opine on that as well as i can, what are the politics of it. i think it has zero chance of becoming law. i don't think any tax increase is going to become law at this point. all of these tax changes will take effect in 2013 so these are kind of stakes in the ground. they'll be debated and become part of the election and sometime between now and the end of 2012 this will have to be dealt with because the bush tax cuts expire then. so there will be a force mechanism that either the lame duck congress or the new

congress in 2013 is going to have to deal with all this stuff. you're right. it's not happening now. >> he missed an opportunity obviously on the key issue that might appeal to democrats when he could have done it so there are a lot of questions as to why now. why when it's too late? having said that, everybody was teed up yesterday framing the president's proposal. he actually did frame it and here is his definition of fair. >> i reject the idea that asking a hedge fund manager to pay the same tax rate as a plumber or teacher is class warfare. i think it's just the right thing to do. either we gut education and medical research or we've got to reform the tax code so that most profit corporations have to give up tax loop holes that other companies don't get. we can't afford to do both. this is not class warfare. it's math. >> all right. i think that's a good speech. a couple things though. i actually think when the president talks about fairness, fairness, a lot of times he'll do that for political reasons. i do think the president looks

at this as fairness. and this is going to sound cold and let me try to frame this the right way. i think the president of the united states should be less concerned with, quote, fairness in the tax code than with doing things that get people back to work. and i think in this case it may be the same thing. hedge fund managers should pay the same amount as plumbers. they should pay more than plumbers. obviously. general electric and other corporations. but there is a feeling, again, of big supporters. and i've heard people -- business people that are huge supporters, mike, that'll say, you know, it's like he wants us to do well but not that well. he thinks americans should make a certain amount. maybe make $4 million like he made on his book. but no more. instead of thinking, and i think it's a mindset, an obsession. how do i get -- because i don't care.

seriously, rich people, i don't care what you tax rich people. rich people are going to take care of themselves. right? they've got the lawyers. they've got the accounts to take care of themselves. the obsession should be how do we put in a tax code that of course helps us reinvest in our economy but gets working class people back to work? that's always the obsession. >> why can't the effect of what you're doing be both things? >> i'm just saying though the obsession right now -- >> there is not an obsession. >> no, my obsession. how do we get america back to work? since 1971 this country has been on the slide. as you told me, since 1978 when china went global we've been fighting trends. okay. so what do we do? we need to get people like steve rattner in a room and they need to sit around the table and say, okay. these are the trends over the past 30 years. i'm sure fairness is great and fine but how do we get america back to work? how do we stop -- how do we stop

giving incentives to people to create exotic financial instruments on wall street that nobody can regulate and tax obscenely low rates? you know, how do we get manufacturing plants back to america? that has to be the obsession. so i'm not -- i thought the president's speech was great yesterday. that's fine. i'm just saying, though, i -- >> yeah. >> i don't know if the president is obsessing on the right thing. the obsession is not punishing rich people. the obsession should be getting the working class back to work. >> look, in fairness to the president, he gave a speech in front of the joint session of congress. he laid out a plan. it isn't everything i would like. it isn't everything you would like. it is something that resembles what he believes is politically feasible to get people back to work. payroll tax cuts, all the elements of that plan. >> right. >> in a perfect world would it be bigger? would it be different? would it be a lot of other things? sure. but we're dealing in the real world here not the hypothetical world. in the real world that's what he thought he would do.

that was the main piece of what he's been trying to do. what he did yesterday was essentially say here is our plan. how are we going to pay for it and deal with the deficit? it wasn't he woke up in the morning and saying let's pile on rich people. he was saying i need to come up with $447 to pay for this first plan and i want a $4 trillion package. >> you say that, steve, but again, i'm not articulate this morning. i have to go to the bull pen with barnacle. i am right now the lackey of political discourse and that ain't good. but i guess what i'm trying to say is the focus should not be on being punitive toward the wealthy as much as it should be, again, reinvesting in this country. i think -- do your friend not think he has an unhealthy obsession with punishing the rich? >> look, i was at a lunch yesterday that i was speaking to a bunch of financiers. they think two things about washington at the moment. they think that washington is hopeless, that nothing good will come of washington, and that it

is very hard for people to run their businesses that way. the second thing is they do believe that the president is if not antibusiness indifferent to business. at best indifferent he was punishing the rich, boy, they'd be doing a lot worse today than they are, joe. okay? >> mika. >> come on now. seriously. >> you know, because you sit next to me but i think it's very nice for you to do this. >> no. >> no, no. anybody that has watched this show, and i know you don't watch it every day, has heard me say, i think we need to do tax reform. i think it's obscene. >> i know you said that but i don't understand what you're saying now. i really don't. it is literally trying to say two things van it both ways. >> like i said i'm the john lackey of political discourse right now. over the next three hours i will get it right. what is the big idea i guess? the big idea should be, get america back to work. i don't think right now that's the president's big idea. i don't think he knows how to get america back to work.

>> well, look. i would only disagree that, first of all, nobody knows exactly how to get america back to work. >> willie geist does. >> i'd like to hear that plan later. >> you'll have to pay. i mean, he doesn't give this stuff away for free. >> the president is operating with limited degrees of freedom. you know what goes on on capitol hill. you know where we are in the election cycle. the idea that you could show up with a plan to revitalize industrial america now and have it pass is ludicrous. so the president proposed what he thought was right to get america back to work, $447 billion, and what he did yesterday was say, here's how we'll pay for it. now here is the interesting thing about what he said yesterday which is going to only feed some of this. he has said repeatedly we need to roll back the bush tax cuts for those making over $250,000 a year. >> right. >> that gets around some of the warren buffet problems and so forth. what he added to the package yesterday, he had said it the other day, when he put it together, he's also going to limit deductions for people making over $250,000 a year. so he is now going back to tax rates for the wealthy that are

actually higher than they were under clinton. >> under clinton in effect. >> he's taking away everything they got from bush and some of what they had under clinton. that is a step in one direction that people should just be aware of. i don't know if you have to call it class warfare but that's what it is. >> i'm going to take myself to the bull pen. i failed miserably. i fear that, yeah. i fear that i -- it sounds like i'm criticizing the president, just to criticize the president. i'm not. anybody in good faith that listens to this program knows that we believe in tax reform and don't think hedge fund people should get breaks and huge corporations should get breaks. but try to help me explain this idea of what the business community, what the democratic business community tells us about this president and business. >> huge parts of the president's proposal make eminent sense. huge parts of the president's proposal will never become law.

the president of the united states, three years into his term, as steve just pointed out, if you listen to wealthy, democratic contributors, business people, they like the president, find him smart, find him charming, totally, your word absolutely correct, indifferent to american business. totally indifferent to it. not in terms of individuals. you know, he is interested in individuals but the concept of doing business, capitalism, indifferent to it. how it works, the impact that the tax code has on individuals, indifferent to it. >> you know, what is so ironic is that the president if you look at business -- come on, mika. >> is anyone listening to him? >> he does not understand how to create jobs in free enterprise. i was going to say, willie, i can't help myself. i'm not going to talk for the next three hours. i'm back in the bull pen. but you know what's so fascinating to me is he seems to have figured out the culture of the military in a way that is

surprising, unlike business. >> yeah. i think that's probably right. i think what you're seeing right now is basic competing philosophies. he believes the president brings more money into washington through stimulus we can create jobs. republicans say, free up money at the top to they call it job creators who then hire people and create jobs. these are two divergent philosophies on creating jobs being laid bare today. >> republicans win that argument every time. so long as they don't have candidates that drool out of the side of their mouth. but that's a big if. >> what are these job creators? maybe we can find out who they are later in the day. >> remember, if you say to yourself we're not going to tax anybody because they might be job creators then in order to get to our deficit you have to start cutting spending much more heavily and there are jobs out in that spending that are going to go away when you cut that. >> all right. coming up, we'll talk -- >> got to do both. >> got to do both. >> we're going to talk to author

ron suskind. i'm putting on my ask -- >> i don't get this book. >> did you hear what the white house said about suskind? >> yes. they let him in to talk to the president. they let him talk to everybody so it had to be positive. >> too bad he lifted everything from wikipedia. >> you're talking about a pulitzer prize winner. >> just providing a little balance. i'm quoting someone else. >> a little balance. >> not my opinion. >> once it's out of the gate you can't call it back. >> eugene robinson will be on the show. we have a huge show, a lot of great guests. up next politico's top stories of the morning. but first, bill karins is out today. you know who is cuter than bill? >> nobody. >> taylor bay. >> taylor bay. >> his new baby girl, taylor bay karins arrived on sunday afternoon weighing exactly 7 pounds. she's perfect. look at her. >> you know who's here today? >> she's perfect.

>> you know who's here today? >> who? >> my brother. >> oh, my gosh. >> george. >> george. hello, george. >> george is a job creator. >> you're not as cute as taylor bay. >> it's good every once in a while. >> not even close. okay. >> back in the bull pen. not coming out again. >> i'm serious. my ears hurt. just stop. let's go to your forecast now with ryan phillips. >> i salute the president. how's that? >> mika and joe, thank you very much. clouds on the increase in the northeast. we had sunshine for the last few days, beautiful. but now make way for some shower activity and take your umbrellas with you this morning. showers possible from washington all the way up to boston. at least it's not so cool this morning. 55 in hartford. 62 in new york. 63 in philly. we're up into the 70s today. maybe a pocket or two of sunshine but i think showers, a good chance through the afternoon hours. we'll talk more weather in a little bit. stick around. more "morning joe" coming your way after the break. ♪ ♪

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let's take a look. >> can i get out of the bull pen? >> no. i got it. >> okay. >> time now to take a look at the morning papers. "the washington post." when iranian president mahmoud ahmadinejad attempted to pardon two jailed american hikers only to be overruled the next day by his own judiciary, many saw it as an international embarrassment, but iranian political analysts say the episode is a carefully planned political move. they say ahmadinejad's calling for the hikers' release is part of a broader effort to reinvent his domestic image as a reformer and attract support from middle class iranians who are losing patience with the clerical establishment. lord. all right. "new york times" rick perry made a stop in manhattan yesterday. the texas governor attended a

fundraiser at a mexican restaurant in inwood. perry also received an unexpected visit from democratic congressman charlie rangel who apparently decided to crash the event. >> that's great. >> now on to our parade of papers. "the worcester telegram and gazette" boston-power a developer of advanced batteries says it will cut u.s. jobs and expand significantly in china after raising $125 million from venture capitalists and the chinese government. the privately held company is planning to open a technology center in beijing to build and manufacture a lithium battery cells. there we go. don't you love this silence? you're not going to talk at all? >> you told me i couldn't. >> okay. here is some good news from the chattanooga times free press. general motors plans to reopen a plant in spring hill, tennessee where it will build its hot selling chevy equinox. >> i'm getting three of those.

so excited about it. go ahead. >> the plant closed in 2009 costing about 2,000 people their jobs. those workers are expected to be rehired. >> so, steve, give us a quick global look at this. we've got jobs going over to china for batteries. and we've got some car jobs popping up in tennessee here. talked to you about the back and forth. what's happening with these two stories? >> when we restructured the auto industry we took it down to a level we dmu could be profitable and make money at very low car sales. car sales have been a little bit better not than we thought but they've come back a bit even though they're still slow and so gm is a little bit capacity constrained and they promised that the next plant they opened would be this one in spring hill but it doesn't change the fundamental trend that our car jobs, our manufacturing jobs are under huge pressure in this country. i'll give you a quick statistic. four years ago in mexico gm employed 9,000 people. today it employs about 9300 hourly workers. in the u.s. meanwhile it's cut its hourly work force from

85,000 to 50,000. in the u.s. it pays workers $55 an hour total including benefits. in mexico $7 an hour. >> what about these jobs in the south? are these things, you know, like bmw in south carolina, it's revitalized greenville, made it a great new town. you've got vw coming in not paying a lot. you've got mercedes in alabama though. you've got plants in tennessee, mississippi. is this something to cheer? >> sure. >> are these good paying jobs? >> sure. but you slid over the important point. not paying a lot, volkswagen. the latest company to come here, volkswagen, hired 2,000 people also in tennessee, chattanooga, paying them $14 an hour to start going to $17. >> it's $30,000 a year. that is not a middle class job but a lower middle class job. so people get confused about jobs and incomes. jobs are great but they need to come with good incomes and not all of them do. >> time for politico. >> the chief white house correspondent there, mike allen has a look at the morning playbook.

>> good morning, guys. >> let's pick up on the conversation we're having about class warfare. that's the accusation from republicans reacting to president obama's speech. last night at a fundraiser in new york, surrounded by a bunch of rich people he took on the idea of class warfare. what did he say? >> the president is doubling down on it. he is saying you want to accuse me of class warfare? bring it on. he says that if millionaires and billionaires want to be out defending themselves, that he's willing to have that fight. from what we see in the president's remarks last night are the fact that he's eager to go out and talk about this. what we're going to see over the coming weeks is the president in state after state, day after day, going out and saying, i'm trying to fight for these job measures, these tax measures, these tax cutting measures. they're trying to stop me. >> that could be pretty good political strategy, right? just keep hammering it, throwing things out there that independents might like that republicans are going to stop. it seems to me like it's a good

political move. what do you think? >> well, the people in the white house will tell you that in their polling this idea of the buffet tax, the tax on the highest earners, a 70/30 issue. very popular. the problem is that even if nothing passes, even if nothing actually happens, this talk will not help bring business money off the sidelines, which is what the president desperately needs for a better economy. so yes. it's good politics. yes it's good rhetoric. there is a real question about whether it will change the economic conditions which is what he really needs. but they're going after this. the president's campaign manager blasted out a campaign e-mail yesterday talking about class warfare right in the subject line and making clear that they think that this is a fight that can rally their base and as you say maybe bring in some of the struggling folks in the center. >> like republicans have already said time and time again they're not going to do anything that raises taxes. is there something in the plan that the president announced yesterday that he feels like

republicans might come to him on? is there some -- something in the middle for them to agree on? >> there's a bunch of things. some of them small. jobs for veterans. something that everybody can agree on. there's also some things for small business in there that they should be able to agree on. so the president may get some small wins which will help him both with his own people and also with the center but he's fine with republicans voting down a bunch of these. senate democrats are going to have vote after vote to remind people. the idea is to make people think every morning when barack obama wakes up, he thinks about jobs. he thinks about getting the country's fiscal house in order. and so they want to have votes or remind people of that. if they lose a lot of them they're fine with that mike allen, thanks so much for a look inside the politico playbook. >> that's a tough balancing act. >> thank you, mike. >> i think in the short run that is very good politics. >> it's exactly the politics that bill clinton laid out on i meet the press" on sunday. he said you have a plan. you run with your plan and run

against these people and say they have no plan. that's the case. >> there you go. if bill clinton thinks it's a good plan it's a good plan politically. >> not that it's a good plan for the country. >> which again, that's the tough balance because if it does as mike says keep capital on the sidelines, then -- >> look. capital is not on the sidelines because of taxes. capital is on the sidelines because, a, there is no demand and, b, because there is no confidence in washington, no leadership or direction that this country is going and that a businessman can count on. that's what this will tell you. it's not over the hedge fund and getting taxed at this rate or that. >> also a question of do you strike a deal with the other side to send a message to the business community that washington is not dysfunctional. >> if people really want to help they would send a message to the business community we're on ur game. we have a plan. we're ready to move forward. it's not just about politics. >> willie, what is next? >> coming up we'll talk about john lackey and the red sox. it got better as the night went

on. also monday night football. a great catch when the giants needed it. oh, my goodness. >> look at this. >> touchdown. >> plus meet charlie sheen at a house party last night. >> so? >> first episode of "two and a half men" without him. they held his funeral. then he flipped over and watched the comedy central roast of charlie sheen all ahead. almost tastes like one of jack's cereals. fiber one. uh, forgot jack's cereal. [ jack ] what's for breakfast? um... try the number one! [ jack ] yeah, this is pretty good. [ male announcer ] half a day's worth of fiber. fiber one.

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let's talk monday night football. new york giants hosting the st. louis rams at the meadowlands both teams looking for wins after week one losses. giants out to an early lead with help from the rams. they mufd a punt in their own territory. eli manning hits a key from three yards out. giants up and it kept getting uglier for the rams. turned the ball over twice. this was a lateral pass bouncing out of the hands of cadillac williams. he thought it was incomplete. it wasn't. it was a lateral. michael runs it in 59 yards for the touchdown. look what he does there. he was trying to throw it against the back drop. ah man. give him a break. he's doing his job. watch this catch. a few minutes later eli manning

wafts one up. reaches back over the defender. hits him in the chest. a couple tips before he reels this one in. stayed with it all the way. great catch by nixon right there. eli took it 200 yards, a couple touchdowns. the giants, it was ugly but they won, 28-16. >> he was okay, underthrew a lot of balls last night. they didn't play it very well. they got lucky. >> not getting better. but i love eli. i love the school he went to. i love his family. but unlike peyton eli is not improving every year. >> he won't be the dominic quarterback peyton manning was. he's good and won a super bowl. let's talk baseball. i know you're trying to filibuster your way out of this. >> the thing is -- no. >> here's the thing about the manning. i remember seeing r.t. manning. >> tj, what are you doing here buddy? okay. let's go to game two.

the red sox lost the first game. >> oh, no. >> here is game two. inside, standup by the way inside t inside-the-park home run. he's fast. a throw not in time. red sox take game two after winning game one. the rays who were hot on the heefls the red sox did not play last night so with a win and a loss in the same day for the red sox the rays remain two games back. the rays have a double header today with the yankees. >> they play the yankees. >> the sox are playing the others. >> yes. >> if everything goes right you lock it up. >> yes. >> i think you will. >> who's pitching tonight? >> the yankees would be glad to help you. >> mike, who's pitching tonight? >> i think they've called me. >> mike. >> you know? they had kyle wheelen start game one yesterday. >> willie, this will shock you. i am about to complain. >> no. >> what is the red sox' payroll? >> $165 million. >> $165 million. >> yeah.

>> did theo just decide he wasn't going to spend money on pitching over the past decade or just get lackey? how much are we paying lackey a year? >> $17 million. >> $17 million a year? but you know the good news is this is his last year, right? >> no. this isn't nice. >> unfortunately, no. three more years with john lackey okay. >> who is a great guy. >> but at least we get the japanese to give us $100 million back for dice k right? >> no. his money is gone. that's it. >> take it up with layer oin friday. >> this isn't larry's fault. larry is, seriously, it's amazing what a genius larry is. he is. seriously. come on. >> a couple other quick things. mariano rivera got the all time leader on saves. >> wait until you hear me talk about theo after we win the world series. >> howard dean.

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in the last week speaker of the house john boehner gave a speech about the economy and to his credit, he made the point that we can't afford the kind of politics that says, it's my way or the highway. i was encouraged by that. here's the problem. in the same speech, he also came out against any plan to cut the deficit that includes any additional revenues whatsoever. so the speaker says, we can't have it my way or the highway and then basically says, my way. or the highway. >> okay. see anyone listening to that? i couldn't agree more, howard.

>> sorry. >> welcome back. >> come on. he loves what the president said yesterday. >> the president was making a really good point. >> howard loved it. >> i do. >> howard dean is with us. talk about the speech yesterday. how great you think the president was. >> i think it was a very good speech and i'll tell you why. everybody knows the republicans are in the tank for the corporations and all that stuff. that's what they believe. they do. i'm not trying to be partisan here. >> i love you. you know i love you joe, look at the polls. the republican congress is at 12% of the polls. there is a reason for that. >> okay. so the president -- so everybody knows that. >> what they really need, what they really want is strong leadership. >> right. >> and somebody who believes in them. so what does the president do? he lays out a plan which taxes people who make a zlillion dollars a year which everybody thinks is important. >> yeah. >> whatever. $250,000 for the people who are losing their jobs right now is, you know, a lot of money. >> and a point for negotiation. >> it doesn't matter.

a starting point for nothing. if this thing passed tomorrow the president would be re-elected and if it doesn't pass the president will be re-elected because. >> finally. >> the republicans have got to vote no, vote against the american jobs -- >> so the president set them up politically right? >> the president has done what he should have done about three years ago which is said i've had enough of this stuff. you don't want to sit down at the negotiating table we're going to do it my way and this is the way the american people want. i think it's perfect. >> thank you. >> we got 14 months to go here but if he sticks to this path and is tough -- i couldn't believe it when he said, and i'm going to veto this bill if you don't include some tax increases for the wealthy. >> there you go. >> that is what people want. >> that's right. >> it's not quite what he said. >> well whatever. >> very carefully. >> come on. he is a politician. everybody knows. >> very carefully he parced his words and said if you want to cut medicare benefits then there have to be revenue increases. >> that's right. >> or else i will be -- >> that's fair. >> the entirety of the package gets to the larger point that

the government -- he is basically saying to the country they, the republicans, would rather defeat me than help you. >> howard, is this what progressives have wanted for a long time? get the president fighting republicans? >> yes. that's what we want. these guys have been totally obstructionist. it's ridiculous. >> everybody knows that. it is time for the president to show he cares. >> and he does. >> and everybody knows that. >> the great thing about it is he had a fast pitch right down the plate. >> yes. >> on the jobs for america act. >> right. >> or whatever it's called. the american jobs. as long as it has the word "jobs" in it is what matters. and then he follows up ten days later because the pattern has been, you know, you pitch the fastball down the plate and then it starts eroding. not this time. so i, you know -- >> all right. a long way to go. i'm optimistic. >> i'm going to mark you down as undecided. >> there are some who don't agree.

we'll start with david brooks in the "new york times." the president believes the press corps imposes a false equivalency on american politics. we assign equal blame to both parties for the dysfunctional politics when in reality the republicans are more rigid and extreme. there is a lot of truth to that but at least republicans respect americans enough to tell us what they really think. the white house gives moderates little morse els of hope then rips them from our mouths. to be an obama admirer is to toggle from being uplifted to feeling used. the white house has decided to wage the campaign as fighting liberals. i guess i understand the choice but i still believe in the governing style obama talked about in 2008. i may be the last one. >> i think i'm in the bull pen. not going to say a word. go ahead, howard. >> i disagree completely. >> tell me why. >> i don't think obama is a liberal. i don't think there is any such thing as a liberal anymore in america. >> aren't you a liberal? >> i am pretty much.

>> okay. >> except about money i'm conservative, very conservative. >> you are very conservative. >> that's true. about money. >> balance the budget repeatedly. >> anyway. >> fiscal hawk. >> i think that david is -- he's right about a couple of things. people have been disappointed in the past and so the president's got to really show what he's got for the next 14 months. but the republicans have been really obstructionist. i don't say -- look, i get along well with republicans when i was governor. i used to get 35% or 40% of the republican vote on a regular basis but these republicans are different than my father's republicans. these are really right wingers. >> all right. >> you're saying they're not my republicans. >> they're not new england republicans. >> how about the republican presidential field? >> doesn't this bother you, joe, at the presidential debate the moderator says something about what would you do about a 30-year-old who doesn't have health insurance and he is about to die and the crowd yells "let him die." this is what the republican party has become. it's ridiculous. >> that is probably not a bumper sticker you want to like try to get on volvos.

>> why are we having a debate that sounds like this? >> thank you. >> what is your other one? >> really quick, dana milbank, obama launches a revolution. let us begin by stipulating that president obama's new budget plan is unrealistic, highly partisan, and a nonstarter on capitol hill. that's what's so good about it. at last the president hasn't conceded the race before the starter's gun, hasn't opened the bidding with his bottom line, hasn't begun a game of strip poker in his boxer shorts, whichever metaphor you choose it was refreshing to see the president in the rose garden on monday morning delivering a speech that for once appealed to the heart rather than the cerebrum. >> it is also appealing to the american people. people have forgotten where the american people are and they're with obama on this speech. >> i got no within. i'm in the bull pen. >> howard, stay with us. willie's news you can't use is next. keep it right here on "morning joe." ♪ ♪

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oh, my goodness. is it time? >> yes it's time. especially useless even by our standards. >> really? >> this is useless. >> just garbage? >> useless news. if you were on twitter last night you knew charlie sheen was having a big house party. >> of course. >> everybody was over. >> yes. >> he was watching the first episode of "two and a half men" that did not include him. they held his funeral on the show. he was replaced by that guy

ashton kutcher. >> brilliant move. >> sheen is out kutcher is in. good for them. >> so when that is over he flips over to "comedy central" to watch the roast of him. the pretaped event that included a team of roasters, roast master jeff ross was kind of the ring leader of a bizarre collection of characters. let's watch. >> give it up for the warlock! friends, roasters, enablers, lend mike tyson your ears. because this lineup is so pathetic i was hoping i'd get replace bide ashton kutcher. this is hard. how do you roast a meltdown? you're the black sheep of the family responsible for three mighty ducks movies. you make your own father ashamed that he shares the same fake name as you.

martin sheen and emilio estevez said they would have been here tonight but they had a family obligation. >> you're a mess, man. during your performance i wish i had bit my own ears off. you know? >> charlie, i'm 80 years old. you're what, 47? >> 46. >> how come we look like we went to high school together? we're not that different. you're a rock star. from mars. yes, you are. and as one rocket man to another, if i may give you my most important piece of advice tonight, never, ever forget to book your next rehab stay through priceline.com. >> that was the kind of material. all we could show you on

"morning joe." >> i can't believe you found something that wasn't filthy. >> shatner was great. why do we look like we went to high school together. >> jeff ross always brings it too. >> okay. >> former new york governor george pataki and our friend mike murphy next on "morning joe." >> thank you. fwraet great to see you, steve. [ woman ] jogging stroller, you've been stuck in the garage, while i took refuge from the pollen that made me sneeze. but with 24-hour zyrtec®, i get prescription strength relief from my worst allergy symptoms. so lily and i are back on the road again. with zyrtec®, i can love the air®.

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we've been sitting around the table with the president's economic advisers and tax experts for sometime. over the course of the summer at

his request to try to think through foundations for tax reform. it was in that context that we took a look at a set of principles for tax reform, including this one. the basic principle is if you make more than a million dollars in the united states you should be paying as a share of income no less than what a middle class family pays. it's a simple principle. >> it's a simple principle if you all would listen. welcome back to "morning joe." a bunch of us on the set here. joining us now onset former governor of new york george pataki. >> this is exciting. >> very exciting. and republican strategist mike murphy. >> my lord. >> mike! >> like my grandmother used to call gracious. >> republicans. i have been put in a bull pen. they told me i cannot talk anymore today. imthe john lackee of political discourse. i'm going to let them talk to howard dean about this tax increase because governor pataki, we want to start with you. >> all right. >> because howard dean says this proposed tax increase is all

that is right, all that is beautiful. all that is sacred. >> absolutely. it's going to make the flowers bloom in spring and deficits disappear overnight. >> you should work for the new york post if you talk like this. >> whoa! >> we haven't even said anything. did you write that line three weeks ago? practice in front of a mirror? >> hey, hey. howard, i got a trick question for you about the state of vermont. >> what? >> not going to ask you. >> don't. >> i don't know the answer. >> so this hour we'll talk to the president of georgia and the former president of colombia. >> we have a quiz for the governor but you at home may need the help. >> no, no. >> what is the official state motto of vermont? ♪ >> taking it too far. >> mika said, live free or die. not sure. governor pataki? >> he's from long island. >> seven seconds to answer this question. >> he is not from long island, so come on. get it right.

tell me about the president's proposal yesterday. then let's hear from mike murphy. >> it is so classic obama. it's a press release. do we know exactly what he is proposing? is there a bill? do we know whether it's 20%, 25%, 30%? we know that he and warren buffet agree that warren buffet should pay more taxes. >> and he is saying because of that everybody should do it. >> if warren buffet wants to pay more taxes let him pay more taxes. >> i don't know his proposal because it really isn't a proposal. >> the bush tax -- >> let me make -- one simple thing. obama's commission had it right. bowles simpson. they said that there should be 23% highest marginal income tax rate and you get rid of the deductions including all the loop holes and including taxing all income the same. so you would raise it to 23%. i'm all for that. lower the marginal rate. have millionaires and people who make a lot of money pay more but at a lower rate. 23%.

it works. but the problem is -- >> and get more revenue. >> get more revenue. the problem is this president doesn't want to do that. he does not want to lower the rate on income. he wants to raise the marginal rate on income and raise a surtax on those who make more. >> that's right. >> doesn't work. >> so actually steve rattner said last hour whether you like it or don't like it the wealthy will actually pay more taxes than they did even under bill clinton. we're at the top of the hour. a lot of people just tuned in. i was going to go to mike murphy but just for balance let's hear what you said 30 minutes ago. and talk about this. then we'll get mike -- >> i'm not opposed to tax reform. i think george has got some good thoughts here. i think the president's plan is very solid. what he has said is that people who make what warren buffet makes, the so-called buffet approach now, ought to pay the same amount and not less than as a percentage basis than people who -- ordinary americans many of whom are struggling to keep

their jobs or are out of jobs. i think that makes a lot of sense. this motion that we're going to balance the budget without adding revenue is nuts. i think the revenues ought to be back to where bill clinton in terms of the tax rates, ought to be back to where we had them with bill clinton. that would be that part of balancing the budget and of course there need to be cuts and restraints on medicare and so forth. >> do you agree with orszag you get rid of all the bush tax cuts or just get rid of the bush tax ruts for the rich? >> the president doesn't want to get rid of -- >> i'm asking what you think. all of the tax cuts or just for people making $250,000 or more? >> right now only get rid of the tax cuts over $250,000. ultimately, everybody is going to have to pay what we paid under bill clinton. and we're going to have to make cuts. >> mike murphy, if you were a republican, what are you worried about in terms of what the president has teed up here? >> well, it's not an economic plan. it's a political document. it's a boat buying scheme hooked up by his pollsters.

the biggest crisis which we have in domestic politics is the entilement crisis. total pass on that. on tax reform, i agree with governor pataki. the simpson/bowles plan, there is a way to find more revenue. the problem is you have to offset it with a serious commitment to cut spending. this does neither and the tax reform here has nothing to do with growth which would trade jobs and pay down the debt. it's politics. hit the top 2% because that's best on a poll somewhere. if i'm worried about as a republican strategist about a campaign that's kind of cynical and demagogic i'd be worried but immore worried we have a real entitlement crisis in the united states and the president isn't planning to do anything about it. >> let's talk about purely the politics. whether the economics are good or bad people have been saying for sometime the president needs to punch back hard. the republicans have dominated the agenda over the past year. politically, if you're a democratic strategist and your

focus is getting the president re-elected next year, bringing his numbers up with independents, is this a good political move? >> no. i agree with mark penn and the paper today. i think it's a bad move for independents. if i am a democratic strategist though i think most will like it because they went to the college of class warfare. that's how they've run a lot of campaigns in the past. this is a very comfortable point of view for them. it's close to the gore playbook. so it's like a security blanket but i think it's a strategic matter, he is risking losing the middle where the republicans are very challenged where he has an opportunity. so i think this actually when we look back is a, going to be a point of failure in his campaign not a point of success but we have to wait and see. >> do you agree, mike sf. >> i am inclined to agree with almost anything that mike murphy says at any point in time, always. >> by the way, mike murphy, did you know we shared one of your tweets last week about 20 times? >> that was a good one. >> i was drinking that night. i feel a little bad. i watched the debates and at

murphy i tweeted a lot of jokes. >> i loved it. you remember the tweet? >> get the tweet ready, guys. we need to show it again. >> off of what mike murphy said. >> yeah? >> i want to know and i've been mystified for several months by this in terms of class warfare, common sense, politics, whatever. >> right. >> who are the job creators? i mean, who are they? the republicans keep talking about we can't tax the job creators. >> right. >> who are these people? where are they? >> mostly they're small business owners. over 60% of new jobs come from small businesses. they're all over the country. they're not the big global corporations. they're moms and pops and small businesses who hire the first ten people. then as they grow they add the 11th and the 12th and they double in size. those are the ones who have been clobbered by obama care, are being clobbered by the regulatory policies and who obama wants to tax higher. and back to joe's question about, is it good politics? i think mike murphy is 100% right. it polls enormously well.

should we tax somebody over a million dollars more? >> yes. >> you'll get yes. but he is the incumbent and people are going to look for results and the main result they're looking for is do i have a job? >> okay. so -- >> and they don't. >> but you know what? isn't it, howard, refreshing to see the president punch back to what seems to be a wall, a brick wall toward progress? >> yeah. i think, a, it's refreshing that he's getting up and standing up for what he believes. actually george is wrong about obama. obama does care, which is good. i like obama care. but the fact is it's very good for small business. it's incredibly good for small business. it was a mckenzie study which the democrats don't like and i do. i think it's true. most small businesses will not be in the health insurance business after this goes into effect. that is going to be the biggest boost to small business that has been done in years and years. george is right. actually the figure i use is they create 80% of all the additional new jobs. it's critical. i think obama care is a huge help to small business. >> the only way it's a help is if they dump coverage. >> that's right. that's what they should do.

>> an employee shouldn't have to go on the government exchanges. which is what the president promised wasn't going to happen. >> it is going to happen. it's a very good thing for the economy. >> mike murphy, i've also talked to, and let's go ahead and move to obama care while we're at it, i've also heard people that run the largest corporations in america say, you know what? carry for five or six years but at some point just going to turn it over to the government. which i guess is what the democrats wanted all along. >> you're not really turning it over to the government. that's not fair. if i had my way, we would have. the insurance companies, i don't think it's so great. the fact is the government is subsidizing care for the insurance companies which is exactly what the republicans did when they started part d of medicare. this is a bipartisan approach. >> large companies love the idea of offloading health care costs on the taxpayer. they love any corporate health care including obama care which can be argued. i want to make one quick point on the taxes though. the other problem with this penalty tax on millionaires he is proposing is the small business job creators, mostly on their personal tax returns,

report their profits as earned income at the high rate. so allow the people in this target zone now for this, what i call penalty tax, are small business job creators. the truth is we have to raise everybody's taxness a fair way. we ought to look at a consumption tax. we have to look at the entitlements. >> if the small business owners could report their income the way the hedge fund guys report their income they'd get a massive tax cut? >> they would. they would. the whole buffet argument is a little silly. i own his stock. he is a great investor. but it is a question of what do you tax capital gains at versus earned income. you can flatten it at a middle rate for both but if you just hammer earned income which tests off the chart, it's a great cheap applause line. it's small business owners that often get hit there. you take away some of their incentives. so this tax -- it's a good bumper sticker in a democratic primary. it gets the base fired up.

it's lousy economic policy. >> please explain something. you've been governor of the state of new york. >> right. >> you dealt with the wall street -- >> the deficits. dealt with entitlements. >> explain to meech. i don't even understand, why is it that people that run the hedge funds, i mean i understand they can lobby and they can get k street to give them all these great tax incentives. but what is the economic logic of allowing the richest hedge fund people in the world to pay obscenely low tax rates? >> they pay it at a capital gains rate because the argument is that it's not ordinary income. you invest in a company. you don't make any return. >> right. >> until you exit that company by a sale which is in effect the capital gain. but again, the bowles simpson corrects all of this because it has the 23 -- >> you think it should be corrected right? >> i think all of it should be taxed at a maximum rate of 23%. you take the small business person, and mike is absolutely right. they get paid an ordinary

income. their rate comes down. but somebody like warren buffet who makes all his money in capital gains, his rate would go up. and it's a fairer system. >> the average millionaire, billionaire pays 18% in taxes. >> rite. >> in america. doesn't simpson/bowles sound like a great idea? close the loop holes. if we could get them to even pay 25%. >> there is something to that. >> the only argument we're going to have is where the numbers fall down and how much the person who is making $oo,000 a yea -- $50,000 a year has to pay. this is a concept. i am not in favor of getting rifd the mortgage deduction or charitable deductions but i think the rest of them are all on the table. >> that is the question. >> what really bothers me about this president is that you hear howard dean and i essentially agreeing. we're going to have some minor differences. >> right. >> but this president and his

bipartisan commission worked very hard and he ignored it because he didn't want to lower the rate. >> we have a republican house here. they get to propose tax legislation. where was the tax reform? i didn't see any tax reform. >> got to get mike murphy. >> nothing but nonsense. and sound bites. >> this is the same old -- >> this president has -- let's go to mike murphy. >> we wouldn't have any of this squabbling going on and the president's numbers would be a lot better and we wouldn't have this dumb plan if the president had the leadership and the guts to put the whole weight of the presidency behind simpson/bowles when it came up. >> the president leads, howard. and he failed to do that on simpson bowles. >> to howard's point. >> he also had three republican senators sign off on that. >> to howard's point, do the republicans in congress sound like you, the way you're talking

today? >> sure. >> i'm not hearing it. is it selective hearing? >> it's having a flatter, fairer system. >> you can't do what you just said to do if he's not going to raise one dime of revenue. >> if we had a president leading on this. >> then eric canter would suddenly become a moderate? >> no. >> you were both governors. did you lead your legislatures or did you follow them? >> of course you had to lead. >> these guys are crack pots for god's sake. you know it as well as i do. >> i had crack pots in my house from the left. okay? i managed to deal with them. >> we don't have any crack pots in either party in vermont. >> fine. >> turn socialists. >> speaking of the president and the republicans. the republican field is out there. i want to ask for an unbiased opinion whether you agree with

the esteemed mike murphy who last week -- >> this is quite elegant. >> -- tweeted this. listening to rick perry trying to put a complicated policy sentence together is like watching a chimp play with a locked suitcase. >> then he had another shot. >> and then another shot. >> george pataki. >> i take it murphy is endorsing perry. >> i'm going to see him today in new york. >> i want to win the general election. >> so do i. >> if you put the tweeter page back up you notice a large glass of beer in my hand which i think all tweets ought to be viewed -- >> so mike murphy -- >> i had a roommate that once said liquor never made a liar out of anybody. >> no. >> mike murphy, you just said something very interesting. and i of course, despite the fact i believe the same thing now that i believed in '94, when people called me a right wing nut -- >> now you're a moderate. >> well, they call me that because i know that michele

bachmann cannot win a general election. >> right. >> i know rick perry cannot win a general election. i know that so many of these flavors of the month the republicans put up cannot win a general election. and somehow, it's something that a lot of people in the republican party and a lot of talkers just don't focus on, mike murphy. this is at the end of the day about winning elections. and rick perry ain't going to win a general election next year. >> i think he has a small chance but i'd rather nominate a candidate with a more than small chance and i agree michele bachmann has no chance. i don't think she can win the primary either. yeah the problem is primary voters vote on passion. they don't vote on electability. governor dean could address that point. when you give him a hot pepper message you get a running rate but you're not necessarily the guy who is going to sweep the country at least hypothetically in the general election. maybe we got a new era of politics but, yeah. most political professionals look at rick perry. people have actually run campaigns in the republican party and think this guy is a

real strong primary candidate. he is a real threat to romney. he may well beat him. but then they start thinking about the general election and get depressed because they think we have a vulnerable president. we're going to nominate a guy wearing a velcro suit so the obama campaign can make it all about perry. that could be tragic. >> and of course perry will not win wisconsin or minnesota. he won't win michigan. he wouldn't win pennsylvania. he wouldn't win new jersey. he wouldn't win any of these swing states. >> he's not a blue state guy. no doubt about it. >> all right. mike murphy, stay with us. george pataki -- >> thank you. >> thank you so much for being here. come back soon if you will. >> sure will. >> all right. >> he's in the green room. >> we have standing by former president alvero rebay of colombia to discuss this week's united nations summit. also joining him the president of georgia and nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. up next former governor jennifer granholm and her husband with

their new book. also "the washington post" eugene robinson. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. [ hayden ] what's the best way to hide your breakouts? a dab of concealer here... a flurry of powder there. what if there was a makeup that didn't just hide your breakouts... but actually made them go away. neutrogena skin clearing makeup. it has our proven blemish fighting formula blended with silky gorgeous makeup. so it gives you a beautiful flawless look while undercover it works to clear breakouts. does your makeup do that? neutrogena® cosmetics. ♪ three, six, nine ♪ the goose drank wine ♪ the monkey chew tobacco on the streetcar line ♪ ♪ ♪ clap, pat, clap your hand ♪ pat it on your partner's hand ♪ ♪ right hand ♪ clap, pat, clap your hand ♪ cross it with your left arm ♪ pat your partner's left palm

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anyone who signed some pledge to protect every single tax loop hole so long as they live, they should be called out. they should have to defend that unfairness. explain why somebody who is making $50 million a year in the financial markets should be paying 15% on their taxes when a teacher making $50,000 a year is paying more than that, paying a higher rate. they ought to have to answer for that. the last time i checked the only pledge that really matters is the pledge we take to uphold the constitution. >> thank you. that makes a lot of sense. while you all are looking at the numbers and now and this and

that which is incredibly important. >> stop attacking gene robinson. stop it. >> i'm just going to say he is addressing what will become the social crisis of our generation, of our lifetime if we don't go there. and fairness is important. it will be very important. >> yeah, gene. >> with us former michigan governor and nbc political analyst jennifer granholm and also her husband. the two have co-authored a book titled a governor's story, the fight for jobs and america's economic future. can't wait to talk about that. also joining the table is pulitzer prize winning columnist and associate editor of "the washington post" and msnbc political analyst eugene robinson. >> who says mika is right. >> you agree with mika. >> i do. >> were you excited by the president's speech yesterday that he fought back? >> i was. i thought it was a strong speech. and just in political terms this is a good, simple issue that i think people can understand. why should a billionaire hedge

fund guy pay taxes at a lower rate than his chauffeur or his private chef? >> exactly. >> i mean, it's ridiculous. >> or if we really want to go there then pay less in taxes, you know, than the guy that flies around in his corporate jet. how's that? >> well, i think he is saving that for next week. he'll bring the corporate jet owners back in remember. >> we've been sitting around the table for sometime. it makes no sense if warren buffet pays less in taxes, governor, than his secretary. it's just obscene. >> it is obscene. and the question is, are we going to as a nation take the money that you might get from a millionaire's tax and then invest it in america. that's why we wrote this book, the governor's story because from the laboratories of democracy, michigan's story i think is really illustrative for the country because as governor i had a republican legislature. i'm democrat. my first term i did everything that the supply siders would want. i cut taxes 99 times. by the time i left office, we

were 48th in the country in terms of the size of government so we cut taxes. we cut government. and what happened? we still had the highest unemployment rate in the nation. know why? because it wasn't about that. what it was about was that america's economy has changed. the structure of the economy has changed. >> right. >> because of globalization. and we need to develop solutions that will make a business case for businesses to choose the united states and that means an active government and not a passive one. >> so, dan, how difficult was it for you to write this book with your wife? were there times that you two yell at each other a lot, scream? >> what are you talking about? >> this is my swedish wife. very calm all the time. extremely steady. >> never raises her voice. >> we went through an awful lot in the eight years jennifer was -- how happy are you that it's over? >> extremely happy. totally relieved.

i used to say there were nights when i would wake up. jennifer was sleeping and doing this. and i had this sense she was pulling ten million people up a hill. >> yeah. >> it's a pretty all inclusive experience. >> nobody understands. we certainly offer our critiques on policy here every morning. that's what we're supposed to do. but we try to stay away from the personal. nobody understands the sacrifice of the candidate, of the governor, but especially the governor's family. i'm sure you were like me. you on a much larger scale in state like michigan if somebody wrote something nasty about me i'd look at it for two seconds, ah. my wife, my kids, my mom, my dad, it stayed with them all day. i would say, even now, i walk past my wife and i just sense a darkness and i will just walk right past her and say, don't read the comments. just read the article. >> same thing. >> and i say that to her because i haven't read comments for years. my wife reads every comment.

>> why are they so nasty? mom, don't read the bloggers. don't read the comments. >> i asked that question for the first five years. i've stopped asking the question. but family members read the comments. they read the nasty stuff. >> yeah. >> how hard is that? >> i try not to. i mean, jennifer catches me because i push her when she's doing it. >> he responds to them. he's like, hello. no. no. don't do that. >> don't ever do that. >> gets sucked into the vortex you know? >> i find it cathartic to go after somebody sometimes. >> i tried it and it doesn't work. just either say keep on and carry on or do bible verses. anyway, you all have touched on something that is really i think the great challenge of our time. there is a fundamental restructuring. it's been going on in this country we say since 1970. >> right. >> we've got globalization that's been going on since '78 when china sort of burst on the

international scene. how does detroit compete? how does michigan compete? how does the midwest compete? how does america compete? >> exactly. one of the things we say in the book is that our government has to be involved. i mean, china is fighting for jobs. india is fighting for jobs. sweden is fighting for jobs. germany is fighting for jobs. we have this idea, no government and private sector should go as far apart as athey can and not mingle. it's nuts. what's happening is our businesses are doing what businesses do, getting returns for their shareholders. where are they finding margins? cutting employees and moving work abroad. who is left fighting for people? who is left? >> what i don't understand is if every other country is teaming up with their businesses to figure out how to -- >> exactly. >> why don't we, i say, what do you mean? we're going to help you out. you don't have to pay your taxes. how can we help you beat china? states do that. >> yes. >> why doesn't --

>> in michigan, you know, at the university of michigan where i went to school, there's a lot of work going on to try to reinvent the car. reinvent the way cars run, the internal combustion engine. everything. and so, you know, are we helping that, is washington helping that, pushing that along? >> certainly the intervention to save the auto industry did but when you continue to cut research and development -- >> exactly. >> you have countries like singapore and sweden who have what is known as the triple helix or the golden triangle which is you have government, the private sector, and the universities as a partner to be successful. and it wasn't in michigan it wasn't until the obama administration offered through the recovery act the opportunity to build the lithium ion battery for the electric vehicle that all of a sudden intervention in the auto industry, we started, we hit bottom and we started to turn around. in 2010 our unemployment rate dropped six times faster than the national average. the gallup organization said michigan's job improvement was the most improved. it was only with intervention

and partnership with the private sector. >> right. >> that we were able to make a difference. >> how about ford? >> ford is doing great. they're all doing -- >> gm is okay? >> yeah. they're all sitting on a lot of profit. >> gm made $2.5 billion the first half of the year. >> chrysler is about to start building a maserati or something like that. >> that seems like a practical thing to do in the worst economy since -- >> value added. >> so i drive a volt right? >> can i ask you this? can i fit into a volt? >> absolutely. it is a luxury. it's -- >> i'm 6'4", a big guy. >> it's not a tin can. it's a luxury car. >> i'm buying me a volt. >> you get a volt. >> i'll get my suburban and then my volt and be in about 30 average for my cars. >> you'll love this. plug it in in the garage right? overnight. and the house that we're in is actually, we're renting a house in california. it's powered by solar panels. my electric bill last month our electric bill was $4.

and we didn't fill up the gas tank once. >> wow. so i'm just saying. >> you know, mike murphy, i forget, we have mike murphy here. mike, you got to jump in. >> you need a volt, mike. >> i got to admit i'm having fun because i disagree with every single thing i'm hearing here. >> i love it. >> come on, mike. >> jump in. go! >> well i'm a michigan guy. i grew up there and i was a political consultant to the governor before governor granholm so obviously governor granholm and i have some disagreements about some policy issues but we won't clog up the program with that. i'm a student of the american auto industry and very happy to see it's coming back. but you ought to read the book on kind of the rise and fall of detroit. it's very instructive. one of the problems we have how do you answer the question that general motors before the collapse here was the most successful company in their joint venture and the toughest, fastest auto market in history in china getting clobbered in michigan and the united states.

we have an over regulated industry that had real problems. now these bankruptcies have cleared away a lot of the legacy costs so there is some hope now but manufacturing in america is in a crisis and i'm not sure i'll resonate to the idea it's all about a government partnership. i love r&d spend bug we have to make productivity go up and control union costs which are huge and michigan ought to be right to work. that would put people back to work. >> mike, it's happening all over america that we are losing all of these manufacturing jobs. and the question is, if we do nothing, if we stand by and just say hands off, china is going to continue to win. because they are not hands off. i was moderating a panel of business council earlier this year with the ceo of coca-cola, ceo of at&t, john deere, and the question was what should be the role of government in the united states in creating jobs in america? i said, well who is the best model? what country does it the best, plax it ea makes it the easiest? they said singapore.

they bend over backwards to make a good business case for the businesses to work in. >> mike murphy? >> singapore works because it's a dictatorship. they don't have a democracy. they have cafe standards and extremely expensive -- why is it so much more expensive to make a car in detroit than in indiana? what we have to do and it's hard is put money into infrastructure. i agree with the president on the infrastructure thing. and we've got to have less regulation in the cafe standards and things like that. we need higher gas prices. that's what auto guys will tell you. >> i bring people together. that's what i do. mika also supports r&d. we can all agree on that. >> we agree on that. >> all right. >> we should not argue about cars with the former governor of michigan. >> thank you. jennifer and dan. the book is "a governor's story the fight for jobs and america's economic future." >> we didn't get to the tigers or the lions. >> how about our teams? we're loving it. >> holy cow.

>> adorable. all right. coming up. >> i'm sure you made their day. >> pulitzer prize winner ron suskind will be here. keep it here on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman. [ horn honks ] ♪ oh, those were the best of days ♪ ♪ i still feel the summer rays

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the emmys were on last night and that is a big, stupid tv deal. they got the big search lights and the cameras and the music and the swelling and the emotion and people and on and on. so now today by contrast i'm watching the opening ceremonies of the u.n. general assembly. i'm telling you you can't tell the difference between that. >> what do you mean? come on. >> and the damn emmys. here. this is what i'm talking about. watch this. >> instead of fighting each other we should excel together in modernizing our common region. and instead of -- ♪ >> coming up, ban ki-moon and ashton kutcher when the u.n. general assembly returns. up next a showdown of this week's u.n. meeting that could shape the debate in the middle east. we'll talk to the president of georgia and former colombian president along with the nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. "morning joe" will be right back. i want healthy skin for life.

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we'll tell some of those stories but not all of them. 41 past the hour the united nations general assembly is meeting this week in new york and with us now are two presidents attending the meetings. former colombian president arube vice chair of the u.n.'s gaza flotilla investigation commission. and the georgian president, friend of my parents, telling stories about my father. >> he's crazy, your father. >> totally. ten times more than her even. i was telling her, like two years ago we were in croatia

know he was jumping from the top of the theater and in my bravest dreams i would never consider getting there. >> he's 80 something. >> he likes to swim. >> it's amazing. >> itas maizing. >> also joining the table nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of "andrea mitchell reports" andrea mitchell. >> thank you. >> we still have eugene robinson and mike murphy in washington with us. so that's great. >> so what do you expect to happen this week? is there going to be a lot of talk? you've obviously been conducting an investigation. you expect that to go under a lot of attention this week on the flotilla? >> of course. we worked for one year on this inquiry. on september 2nd we handed our report to the secretary general of the united nations. we have to behave with the same ethics.

i have to be very quiet, totally quiet, because our thought is in our report. >> so you have to be very quiet. >> of course. >> i wouldn't be good at that job. >> terrible actually. >> andrea? >> i think one of the real sadnesses to u.s. officials in particular was that there was an opportunity with your report, it sort of came down the middle, that said that israel had the right to go after the flotilla but used excessive force. if there had been an apology, but prime minister netanyahu did not want to proceed that way, and there was a lot of political opposition, he felt, and so now you've got israel and turkey, long standing allies, quiet allies and military partners in a lot of ways at loggerheads. israel is increasingly isolated not only from egypt now but turkey as well. and facing this vote in the general assembly if not the security council. >> right. >> which could really isolate the united states from the rest

of the world. >> of course when i listen to you i have many thoughts in my mind but i have to be quiet because i was a member of this panel. if you read the report, you will find where it is very helpful. >> they point the way. and the president is being diplomatic because as a judge of this he couldn't -- but to you, you see that the problem that is arising with the palestinian demand for a security council, statehood vote, and the u.s. position increasingly isolated that this is not the way to any kind of negotiated solution. >> obviously, we do believe that there is a right to security and a secure existence. also the palestinians have a right to statehood. nobody puts, i mean, it's in doubt, and certainly we have

lots of sympathy for the plight of the palestinian people. on the other hand, we believe in negotiations and the opposition is very clear this kind of thing should only be settled when it takes two to do things. and we certainly need to, i hope there will be more and more incentives. also because of what's happening at the u.n. to get to some negotiated solution, because things should change for people in reality not just in the papers. but i think over all this is a very important moment at this moment at the u.n. and it shows those things. >> from the middle east to georgia. >> yeah. >> what's your goal this week for your nation? >> well, obviously this is also -- there are several issues, you know, and i'm speaking to the u.n. and i think the main thing is that it's 20 years of the soviet union and there were lots of things to do. he predicted and nobody would ever have believed it. and almost -- >> he would have jumped off the wall but they took it down. >> he really did predict

correctly. then of course the anniversary of 9/11. and every time, pundits were wrong both times. they said it's finished. that's it. it's over. and certainly history is not finished and things can get very tragic and certainly we will consider this speech. on the one hand there is this anniversary. things have gone worse after that. russia has become more regimist basically trying to restore some sphere of influence of the former soviet union. terrorists have gone on the attack. on the other hand the good news is that there is arab spring. there is also a wave of dmok ra tiesation but it can go both ways in what was the former soviet empire so we'll be talking about all of those issues. >> gene robinson? >> a question. i used to cover colombia and when you took office colombia was being torn apart by left wing guerrillas and right wing paramilitaries and drug cartels.

when you took office. when you left office colombia was transformed. it was on its way to becoming a normal country. what lessons do you have for so many countries in the world that are facing those kinds of wrenching problems? >> we -- the country made significant progress. we applied three elements -- security, environment promotion and social cohesion. when we speak about social cohesion it means education, health, more enterprises. that combination of these three aspects -- security, with freedoms, pro motion, and at the same time soegt cial cohesion, combination made a significant improvement in my country. >> a remarkable turn around. mike murphy? >> i've been to georgia. i'm a fan of your country.

i'm wondering where your relations with the russians stand? have there been any thoughts since all the tensions? >> did you hear the question? he asked, he is a big fan of your country and has been there but has there been any thaw in relations between georgia and russia if there has been he hasn't seen any evidence of it. >> well, you know, we are in this precarious situation that russia possesses 20% of my country's national territory. we have half a million people who can't return to their homes, basically 80% of the population of those areas so we have the situation of mass deportation, mass expulsions very much the russian soviet style. and here basically on the other hand at the conference, we are discussing these things. how we tackle even the most violent situations. and, you know, of course this is great example for all of us but also what we did in georgia,

despite the fact that we are building this democracy at gun point in a very precarious circumstance, they don't recognize our border or our government. they want us officially out. they don't even recognize this is our agreement that president sarkozy brokered with them and they say it is not relevant anymore. we have after the war 67% growth rate. we are the world's number one fighter of corruption according to the international watch dog in the world. we are -- we have -- in terms of security, that's why i've been -- we are the safest, one of the safest countries in europe, the second safest after iceland which is an island and we have the safest capital, and we have -- we are the -- we are the easiest place to do business in eastern and central europe. we are number 11 in the world. so what it shows, if you really work on your democracy, open up your political system, reform

your society, are not scared of these kind of pressures, don't cry wolf all the time we are under attack as we are, let's everybody shut up. it's no time to argue. it's no time to work on other things, let's concentrate on the threat. we never choose this way. the other way around it is to concentrate on positive things and go in that direction. when you do those things, the most criminalized societies can turn around. >> andrea? >> what do you think the future of vladimir putin is? where is russia going? >> as far as i know, he's planning to come back, but the point here is more wider than that. i think the wrong conclusion they drew from the demise of the soviet union, they said okay, soviet union was in trouble, but gorbachev was too soft. he was a softy. he basically put himself under the west. he listened too much to

americans and the others and killed the soviet union. what we have to do is refuse any reform. we have to keep it as this entrenched. we have to be more repressive and more brutal and we will not make the same mistake. this is the shortest way to painful collapse and demise. this will not be good for anybody. obviously, i mean it's a great nation. for the last six years, georgia has paused immigration, everybody is coming back. more people are coming back, especially young ones. i saw yesterday in the economies of london that 24% of russians, the most educated ones want to leave that country. even old doesn't help. we saw it in the middle east. you might have money or seem powerful, but people don't know longer feel respected if they have no say in politics. if they are not -- if they don't have sense of future, that's a

big thing. putin might have a sense of his own future, but when his people no longer have the sense of future, that's pretty scary. this, by the way, we are not rejoicing. as i said, they occupy part of our territory, they do all the nasty things to us. despite the fact, we are receiving hundreds of thousands of russians visitors every year, tourists and businessmen. a russian professor told me, in soviet union, we admire western germany, now we admire georgia. they admire big america, germany, now small georgia is criteria for admiration. >> let's go back to "the washington post," gene robinson. >> one question on the economic front. you've got economic crisis in europe with the possible default of greece. you've got economic crisis here

in the united states. you've got the rise of china and asia almost the center of gravity of the world. economy, is it to either/or both of the leaders, is it time for another sort of brenten woods reshaping of the world economic system? are we at that point or how do we get past this, where we are now? >> latin america is doing well. latin america, 2008 crisis in very good performance. however, we are very concerned because we have no two or three years ago, we have a new crisis. we need the united states to call the deficit, europe, it's got problems because the united

states and europe are accused of our economies. we have additional concern. china exports a lot to europe and to united states. import a lot from latin american countries. therefore the more the decline in the economy of the united states and europe, the greater it is for china. if china declines on economic growth, latin america will suffer because latin america is becoming a great exporter to china. >> president uribe of colombia and georgia president saakashvili. >> i'll get new ones, because i'm sure we'll cross paths. >> exactly. he is so bright. he's in great physical shape, but he thinks better than most everybody. >> they have a few nice things to say about you. >> i saw a little thing that

concurred the same. he's important. i am very surprised because two gentlemen, they are under 25. they have convenience of this very important to look for joint action between the private and public sector on one side, how to prevent societies from export. >> there are shakers in town. old and obsolete already. >> thank you for coming here. andrea, eugene, we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] to the 5:00 a.m. scholar.

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>> i don't believe that class warfare is leadership. and you know, we can get into this tax the rich, tax the rich, but, that is not the basis for america. it's not going to get your economy going again. >> at a time when it's spending out of control, giving the federal government more money is like giving a cocaine addict more cocaine. >> to say that wealthy people should pay their fair share, that's outrageous. that's like saying when he calls for a middle class tax cut that's class warfare. to say income tax should be redistributed in ways differently than it is today, whether you want to have more taxes on some groups or less on others is not class warfare. that's cheap. >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's 8:00 on the east coast as we take a live look at manhattan. we have mike barnicle and steve

rattner. >> financier. >> exactly. >> tell me, about this obamaplan. we get a lot of generalities in the newspapers. he says the buffett rule is more guidelines. dig into the numbers for us. you have back and forth. it's class warfare, this and that. what does it look like to you? >> i think it's relatively simple. what obama is saying is that he's a progressive and that he is going to make policies that are progressive. this proposal, this combination of proposals is really designed to do two things. one, it's designed to deal with the jobless rate in the short term. it's designed to deal with the deficit in the long term but it's very progressive. there is no question that the wealthy are being asked to take the burden of the revenue increases to help bring the budget deficit together. >> define wealthy. that number moves around in washington, d.c.

what is wealthy as defined by this president and the tax increases? >> principally, it's over $250,000 a year in income. what's interesting about this proposal is that it rolls back the bush tax cuts for the wealthiest, those over $250,000, and it also provides all kinds of limitations on deductions and other tax increases on those same people. what's an interesting contrast, after he left the administration, peter or zack wrote a piece for the "new york times" which he said roll back all the bush increases which would affect people from bottom to tack. zble said extend them for two years but get rid of all of them. is it because there's so much money for the federal government to get back even below the $250,000 level. >> it's a matter of fairness. orzack's position was raise everybody's taxes. obama was saying we're just going to raise them on people

above $250,000. >> let's talk about the economics on this and the impact of society as a whole. we'll get to the news. you have progressives saying the rich should pay more. you've got conservatives and modests saying 50% of americans don't even pay income taxes anymore. they pay a lot of other taxes, i understand that, but as far as income taxes go, it doesn't make sense. sort through this for me, because you hear liberals say constantly the tax rate is lower than it's ever been in american history, and yet fewer and fewer americans, 50% of americans almost do not pay a dime in income taxes. if we move forward with this plan, i suspect that number is going to probably go up even more. >> i'm not sure that number goes up. the people who don't pay income taxes typically have family incomes of below $40,000. >> 50% of americans have

incomes -- >> first of all, it's closer to 40% who don't pay taxes. they pay a lot of other taxes, particularly social security. working american pays the same amount of social security that you do up to that $108,000 limit. that is not a new phenomenon. it's been this way for a long time. the view is that people at the top should simply pay more. >> you use the word fairness earlier. that's been troubling to a lot of republicans and conservatives. the president keeps saying they need to pay their fair share. the argument is the top 5% of americans paid something like 60% of the taxes in the country. as a raging capitalist but also someone who has supported president obama, what do you make of the liberal -- >> you and i agree on 90% of the issues. >> he's small government conservative but go ahead. >> what do you make of the concept of fair share? is that a legitimate way to frame this?

>> of course fairness is a legitimate way, but fairness is to some degree in the eye of the beholder. you tell me what's fair. let's take as a baseline, if you go back to the clinton tax rates? were they fair? if you think they were fair, bush cut taxes substantially more for the wealthy than the middle class and below that. obama, if you want to call it the orzac idea, let's go back to clinton but only for the people making above $250,000 a year. those below would keep the bush tax cuts. it would be more progressive, oriented toward the lower income people in terms of who pays what. obama has put a stake in the ground. you can call it class warfare if you want. you can call it another view of the world in which the people who have benefitted the most in the last ten years should pay a bit more than those who have suffered over the last ten years.

>> mike, real quickly, let's get a read on what's going on. explain to me then, last night, president obama here in new york city had a fundraiser. that i,0 $38,000 per person. i happened to bump into two people who were going to attend last night's fundraiser. obviously very wealthy. i'm in favor of tax reform as i think every american ought to be in favor of tax reform. they were laughing at his proposal. saying this is never going to become law. it's a bumper sticker. >> that's a separate issue. you guys can opine on that as well as i can. i think it has a zero chance of becoming law. i don't think any tax increase is going to become law. as joe pointed out, all the tax changes will take effect in 2013. these are stakes in the ground. they will be debated, part of the election. sometime between now and the end of 2012, this will have to be dealt with because the bush tax

cuts expire then. there will be a force mechanism that the lame duck congress or the new congress in 13 will have to deal with all this stuff. it's not happening now. >> he missed an opportunity obviously on the key issue that might appeal to democrats when he could have done it. there are a lot of questions as to why now, why when it's too late. having said that, everybody was teed up framing the president's proposal. he did frame it and here's his definition of fair. >> i reject the idea that asking a hedge fund manager to pay the tax rate as a plumber or teacher is class warfare. i think it's the right thing to do. either we gut education and medical research or we've got to reform the tax code so that most profitable corporations have to give up tax loopholes that other companies don't get. we can't afford to do both. this is not class warfare. it's math. >> i think that's a good speech. a couple things though. i actually think when the

president talks about fairness, fairness, fairness, he does that for political reasons. i do think the president looks at this as fairness. this is going to sound cold. let me frame this the right way. i think the president of the united states should be less concerned with quote, fairness, in the tax code than with doing things that get people back to work. i think in this case, it may be the same thing. hedge fund managers should pay the same amount as plumbers. they should more than numberers obviously. general electric and other corporations. there is a feeling of big supporters. i've heard business people that are huge supporters that will say it's like he wants us to do well but not that well. he thinks americans should make a certain amount, maybe make $4 million like he made on his book, but no more. instead of thinking, i think it's a mindset, an obsession,

because i don't care. seriously, rich people, i don't care what you tax rich people. rich people are going to take care of themselves, right? they've got the lawyers and accountants to take care of themselves. the obsession should be how do we put in a tax code that helps us reinvest in our economy but gets working class people back to work. that's always the obsession. >> why can't the effect of what you're doing be both things? >> i'm saying the obsession right now needs to be -- >> it's not an obsession. >> it's my obsession. how do we get america back to work? since 1971, this country's been on the slide, as you told me since 1978, when china went global. we've been fighting trends. what do we do? we need to get people like steve rattner in a room and they need to sit around the table and say these are the trends over the past 30 years. i'm sure fairness is great and fine, but how do we get america

back to work? how do we stop giving incentives to people to create exotic financial instruments on wall street that nobody can regulate and tax at obscenely low rates. how do we get manufacturing plants back to america? that has to be the obsession. i'm not -- i thought the president's speech was great yesterday. that's fine. i'm just saying though, i don't know if the president is obsessing on the right thing. the obsession is not punishing rich people. the obsession should be getting the working class back to work. >> look, in fairness to the president. he gave a speech in front of the joint session of congress. he laid out a plan. it isn't everything i would like or you would like. it is something that resembles that he thinks can get people back to work. in a perfect world, would it be bigger or different, sure. we're dealing in the real world,

not in the hypothetical world. in the real world that's what he thought he could do. that's the main piece of what he was trying to do. what he did yesterday was say here's our plan, how are we going to pay for it and deal with the deficit. he didn't wake up and say how do we pile on rich people. he said we have to come up with $447 billion to come up with the first plan. >> you say that, steve, but i'm not articulating this morning. i'm going to have to go to the bullpen with barnicle. i'm the lackey of political discourse. >> you're dressed better. >> but i guess what i'm trying to say is the focus should not be on being punitive towards the wealthy as much as it should be, again, reinvesting in this country. i think do your friends not think he has an unhealthy obsession with punishing the rich? >> look, i was at a lunch yesterday that i was speaking to a bunch of financiers.

they think two things about washington at the moment. they think it's hopeless, nothing goodwill come of washington. that's hard for them to run their businesses that way and the second thing is they do believe the president is, if not anti-business, indifferent to business. >> if he was punishing the rich, boy they would be doing a lot worse today than they are, joe. okay? >> mika, mika, you know, because you sit next to me, but i think it's very nice for you to do this. >> no. >> no, no. anybody that has watched this show, i know you don't watch it every day, has heard me say, i think we need to do tax reform. i think it's obscene that -- >> i don't understand what you're saying now. it's like you're saying two things. >> i'm the john lackey of political discourse. over the next three hours, i will get it right. what is the big idea, i guess? the big idea should be get america back to work. i don't think right now that's

the president's big idea. i don't think he knows how to get america back to work. >> well, look, i would only disagree, first of all nobody knows how to get america back to work. >> willie geist does. >> i would like to hear that plan later. >> you'll have to pay. he doesn't give this away for free. >> the president is operating with limited degrees of freedom. you know what goes on on capitol hill. the idea you can revitalize america and have it pass is ludicrous. the president proposed what he thought was right. what he did yesterday was say here's how we're going to pay for it. here's the interesting thing about what he said yesterday which is going to feed some of this. he has said repeatedly we need to roll back the bush tax cuts for those making over $250,000 a year. what he added to the package yesterday, he said it the other day, when he put it together, he's also going to limit

deductions for people making over $250,000 a year. he is now going back to tax rates for the wealthy that are actually higher than they were under clinton in effect. he's taking away everything they got from bush and some of what they had under clinton. that's a step in one direction that people should be aware of. i don't know that you have to call it class warfare, but that's what it is. >> i'm going to take myself to the bullpen. i failed miserably. i fear that it sounds like i'm criticizing the president to criticize the president. everybody knows we believe in tax reform and don't think hedge fund people should get breaks and huge corporations should get breaks. try to help me explain this idea of what the business community, what the democratic business community tells us about this president and business. >> huge price of the president's

proposal makes emanate sense. this will never become law. the president of the united states, three years into his term pointed out if you listen to wealthy democratic contributors, business people, they like the president. they find him smart, they find him charming. they find him totally, your word, absolutely correct, indifferent to american business, totally indifferent to it, not in terms of individuals. he's interested in individuals, but the concept of doing business, capitalism, indifferent to it, how it works, the impact that the tax code has on individuals, indifferent to it. >> what is so ironic is that the president, if you look at business, come on mika. >> is anybody listening to him? do you want your own narrative? >> he doesn't know how to create jobs in free enterprise. he seems to have figured out the culture of the military in a way

that is surprising, unlike business. >> yeah, i think that's probably right. what you're seeing right now is basic competing philosophies. bring more money into washington. through stimulus, we can create jobs. republicans say free up money at the top to job creators who hire people and create jobs. these are two die vergeant philosophies. >> republicans win that argument every time as long as they don't have candidates that drool out of the sides of their mouths. >> who are the job creators? >> remember that, if you say to yourself we're not going to tax anybody because they might be job creators, in order to get to the deficit you have to cut spending heavily. there are jobs in the spending that are going to go away when you cut that. >> coming up next, a new book is making controversial allegations about obama's early white house economic team telling a story of dysfunction, internal dissent

and second-guessing of the president. now the white house is firing back. we're going to talk to the author, ron suskind next. actress rashida jones will be stopping by the set. here's ryan phillips with a check on the forecast. >> thank you very much. after several sunny days in the northeast, this morning showers on the increase from west to east. the approaching boston, moving into new york as far down as washington. as we get into the afternoon hours, look for some shower activity and temperatures not warming up that much. in the 60s in new york and philly and eventually into the lower 70s later this afternoon. shower chances stick around not only today but for the next several days as well. that's your forecast. stick around more "morning joe" coming your way after the break. ♪

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>> what we know is that very simple things, facts that could be ascertained, dates, titles, quotes are wrong in this book. i think, in fact one passage seems to be lifted almost entirely from wikipedia in the book. based on that, i would caution anyone to assume that if you can't get those things right, you suddenly get the broader analysis right. that analysis is wrong. >> boy. >> that was press secretary jay carney, senior administers of the obama administration pushing back chronicles a dysfunctional

white house. the book released today "confidence men," joining us now, its author, ron suskind. >> here's the deal. we learned this in 11th grade, okay. if somebody is recording what you say, don't deny that you said it later. i mean, ron, this is amazing. you've of course had the immediate pushback when there were women who said the white house was a terrible place to work for women. >> back when. >> it's a lie. it's a lie. he's making it up. i never said it. you recorded it. you've got larry summers call you a liar, a guy we like but you wouldn't want to have lunch with. larry summers pushes back saying he's a liar. yet larry summers, let's get the quote he pushed back on hard. we're home alone. we're home alone. there's no adult in charge.

clinton would never have made these type of mistakes. in the book itself. >> excuse me. >> larry pushes back. clinton would have made the same mistakes. larry pushes back. yet, he admits to you in the book. he said in the bombay club. he said in front of an audience, what are they doing here? >> everyone was confronted with the key evidence that's in the book prior to publication. i went to every one of the major characters, including tim geithner. they respond in the pages of the book. readers are saying they're responding here. a seasoned response saying this is what was really going on. when you get to the political environment, the white house say you were on venus that day. as people read the book, the responses are clear and revealing. >> the first thing they did was called you a liar and found out you had tapes. >> then they said oh, boy, trouble. this morning in "the washington post," there are reporters left

in washington who are saying this is a big story. there was a real women's crisis in the white house, not this was no big deal. it's in ron's book. he reported it this morning. anita dunn's quote, yes, it was. valerie jarrett is saying essentially my book is correct. it was much worse than people understand. >> i don't think jarrett would agree with your book. >> jarrett cooperated with the book and said many things that affirm everything in the book as did anita dunn, as did christina romer. i'll tell you something important. the reason the white house pushed me to anita dunn is they felt, i think, which is not inaccurate, that this was a way the president developed as a manager. he had a gender crisis in the workplace and stepped up. they said talk to anita dunn who will give voice to this. this is the president growing into office. part of that point is made in the book. the book is about the evolution

of barack obama across four years. >> dunn said it was a hostile workplace and if they were in the private sector, there would be lawsuits. >> her husband is general counsel, we got a little delicate as to what she should be thinking as to a legal issue with her husband seeing her every move. >> do you think the white house is a hostile workplace for women? >> i say in the book i don't think it is now. i think everyone agrees in that very difficult period in '09 to '10, it was. the key to what occurs here, people step up and say this is untenable. who can take charge? obama sits with them. >> with them? >> the women. they have a dinner which is of course in the book in november and hears their complaints. he is sympathetic. in an interesting quote they are going after larry and rahm. he says i need these guys, i.e., i can't fire them.

women say maybe we'll meet amongst ourselves. the president heard us. let's move forward. >> mike and willie, how often have you seen this where the white house gives total authority from the white house, they have an opportunity to rebut it, which they do, and they still trash and deny it? >> what was the psychology, you wrote books tough on george w. bush. perhaps this white house thought you would be more sympathetic to their administration? >> you're right on it. i've always said during the era of the bush books, the reaction in 2004 when i wrote a book like this about the bush administration, i tore back the curtain, they came after me, paul o'neill with a frivolous lawsuit. these guys are tamer than that. these guys are more personal, make stuff up and get facts. what's interesting is i think the view was exactly that. i said all along, i'm a reporter. i'm not a partisan, i'm not an

idealogue during the bush days. i'm not playing one side or the other politically. i'm there to show what is, to bolster, nourish, informed consent. that's what we do as reporters. >> the underlying theme of the book, ron, is dysfunction in the white house when it comes to arguably, the second most important thing that the president has on his plate. war being the most important, the state of the economy. >> that's right. >> who is responsible for this dysfunction that occurred that might still be occurring? >> you know, look, my sense is that it's not occurring now. the president in our interview, he deals with all these issues. he affirms them. he says it was a tough time, but i've grown as a president. i've learned from these difficult times. now i'm the president that i think america is looking for and looking toward. i've got the staff i need. what happened through this period of crisis, you know, some

of it was circumstantial. he was a brilliant amateur. he comes into the most toxic crisis environment you could manage with no managerial experience and he has around him seasoned long term washington mandarins. their conversation ends up creating outcomes that the president is often unaware of until later he's like how did that happen? one of the key meetings about citibank and tim geithner, there's no dispute about that. tim and i talked about that for about 35 minutes, a moptsz or two ago. he's got full month quotes about what occurred. the president got gamed by his senior advisers. >> breaking up citigroup. >> breaking up citigroup. the president was trying to be forceful. this is the part of the book that is hard to read. the president in the first two months, 2 million weeping on the mall on inauguration day. i can be this president with a big p.

he tries to exert that with the break-up of the big banks. larry summers who is in the first, larry jumps on the president's side. it's christie and larry against tim. there's a show down meeting. he says do it. we need accountability to flow in all directions in america. afterward it gets pulled back. rahm says there's no way we'll be able to do anything this dramatic. by the end of the meeting, the president says take down citibank, close it, reopen it. a month later, there is no plan. i talked to the president, he's like oh, god, it was hard. i'm not sure how agitated i was. >> the president rolled by his own people. >> i have a couple questions about the women. do you point out in the book there are more women in high level positions than any other administration in this

presidency? >> i say he has a murder's row of women which are incredibly accomplished. >> you referred to the lily ledbetter act and the effort in small businesses and lifting them up, things like that? >> no. >> hold on a second. >> i have a few more questions. are there any dates, titles or statistics or quotes. >> you didn't cross examine ron when he wrote bush about this. >> seriously. >> yeah. i just want to ask, are there dates, quotes or statistics wrong in the book? >> the fact of the matter, a 500 page book, i don't know if you've written one of those, when you come through to the finish, you're reading it over, you say we need to change that in the first printing, there's a couple of those in this book. many of those are changed in the books people are buying in the book stores. the important issue is the white house has real stuff to respond to. they don't want to respond to that, including cardinal says

someone needs to be fired. a lot of people are saying geithner is your guy. at the same time, as they read the book, well, this is actually not unsympathetic to the president. he is fighting in a way a good fight against extraordinary challenges. >> entrenched washington. >> and he does kind of grow into this position. now, right now, they'll say there's the president you want, this jobs speech yesterday, to be frank about it, i felt him kind of a little larger than he usually is, tougher. and i think that was the point the white house was making in the last part of the reporting. yes, yes, yes, ron, you got it, but this president learned from this terrible set of challenges and he's grown, and i think that's the point of the book. that's where we end up. people might disagree saying actually, you know, it's still a disaster, but i think the book lays out what's really gone on. why, how it happened, and where he goes from here. is it saveable, this presidency?

>> have you talked privately to any of the members of the administration over the last several days? >> yes. >> did they come out publicly attacking you. >> there's a lot of people under a lot of pressure. they don't want to do something stupid like saying something ridiculous that soon enough as the book is out, they're like what were they thinking. >> like this is a hostile work environment. >> the hostile work environment is reported by "the washington post." a great story is how did we miss this in the first go around. they won't miss it now. the reporters are saying there are 20 disclosures that can build into a new kind of coverage for the president. when this happens to a presidency, they always react dramatically. that's the way it is. they're reacting dramatically, but i think in a way, there's value here. it shows for everybody what they've really faced. >> have you talked to tina chen in the book, she was the white

house council of women and girls. >> absolutely not. >> just wondering. >> there was great cooperation among the senior officials all the way through this period. they wanted to be understood. many people who have left the administration talked and talked and talked. that's the way the world works. >> what area do you think the president had the steepest learning curve? >> i think the core of it is that he is a brilliant guy, but is his brilliance the type that makes for great presidents, in terms of foxes and hedge logs. can he really dig in and say this is what i decided even when maybe the evidence is not clear in these big debates with larry summers and others. often you don't get clear answers. that's part of what the president talks about in the last interview. he says i was a policy wonk. i want to get past that.

there's not perfect solutions. now i can be more dynamic. it was a hard interview, but also where he was clearly digging deep, thinking back for the first time confronted by the real stuff that went on. so i think the interview, well, everyone is reading it today. >> they certainly are. >> i'll come back tomorrow if you want. >> come back tomorrow, we would like to talk more. mika has more questions for you on cross examination. >> why don't i get you a cup of coffee. yeah. >> what does that mean? i don't even know what that means. that's unfair. >> seriously. >> flag. >> that's all i'm getting. >> cheap shots. >> mika joined with a cheap shot. >> rashida jones is next. >> she loved you when you were writing about george bush. >> we're reporters. that's our real job. confidence, with depend in color.

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maybe that's why so many choose to work with us. we're grant thornton. audit. tax. advisory. [ ben harper's "amen omen" playing ] we believe doing the right thing never goes unnoticed. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? she won't eat eggs without hot sauce. she has kind of funny looking toes. she's always touching my hair. and she does this dancing finger thing. [ male announcer ] with advanced technology from ge, now doctors can diagnose diseases like breast cancer on a cellular level. so that women, like kristy's mom, can get personalized treatment that's as unique as she is. [ kristy ] she's definitely not like other moms. yeah, my mom is pretty weird. ♪

♪ >> you know, tendonitis is usually caused by overuse. have you been working out more than usual? >> i did do 10,000 pushups last week. >> that might have something to do with it. you need to relax. you're in great shape. >> proof working for you. >> that's how old you are, man. >> you're right, i've been

overreacting. i don't like thinking about death. death is the opposite of -- >> being alive? >> exactly. >> willie, i don't know what's happening here. i look at her on "parks and recreation." i look at you. it's like you're brothers and sisters. your skin is so lumnessent. what's going on here? are you related. >> we just realized we have something very important in common. we both use dove soap. >> no way. >> put that up on air tee for you. >> i could look like willie if i used dove soap. >> if you would just use soap. >> i use dove hair. all dove products head to toe. >> she's the new dove woman. >> my god. >> you know, i didn't even know that when i asked the question. this is remarkable. tell us more. >> i have partnered with dove hair to launch the make friends

with your hair campaign. >> yes. >> you'll be interested in this, right? >> i'm with you. >> trust me, they're fascinated. we're good. >> anyway, we're inviting women to submit videos of their own experiences of having dry, phra frizzy hair. >> look at this hair. you think this just happens? let's talk about "parks and recreation." this is a show t"the new york times" say could revive our economy, save america. take us in the great new century. >> is that what they said? >> i don't know if they did or not. what's happening this season? >> this season, my character is now officially in city hall, which is a good thing, because i was inexplicably always in their office and never at the hospitals. now i have a job that justifies me being there, which is really

good, and i'm kind of trying to figure out how to make friends with everybody there. i'm an awkward bird. >> what's it like working with amy poehler. >> it's a dream. >> that's not what you told us off air. ron suskind recorded your words. >> she has a baby every three weeks. does that make it hard to do the show. >> she has two babies. she was having babies regularly for awhile. >> how do they work and have babies every three weeks. >> they make babies. they should. they're funny, smart and good looking. >> what role does amy play? we always hear about tina fey and 30 rock. is amy really hands on with parks and rek that way too? >> she's like the best camp counselor. you don't even know she's your leader. maybe you're a bit like this, because you're having such a good time. >> oh, no. >> no, he's a horrible tyrant.

>> just a little different. >> am i getting paid for this, right barnicle? >> she worked with owen wilson and steve martin. >> i did. >> tell me about it. >> they're all great. i did this movie called "the big year" which is about bird watching. you know, one of those broad subjects that everybody is just instinctively interested in. >> i'm going to watch that movie. >> it's a really sweet movie. it's based on a book that's this real thing called "the big year" where people go out and have a competition to find as many unique species of birds as they can. i play a birder, not so much a bird competitor, i'll a bird caller. >> turn the music down. we got more questions. i think she's losing it right there. if you give us three minutes, she'll have a total breakdown. >> owen wilson, we love him.

>> so charming. >> steve martin, a legend, an extraordinary guy, has been making people laugh since the mid '70s. he's so talented. what was it like working with steve martin? >> very generous, very sweet, very smart art lover, i think as people know, and an insanely talented bango player. >> i heard him play carnegie hall. >> jack black. >> what about jack black? >> she worked with him. >> he's in it too? >> no way. >> just succumb. >> jack black rocks. >> he's amazing. what movie was he in that shocked me, the one with nicole kidman years ago. a lot of movie goers here. >> civil war movie. we'll get it. >> "cold mountain." he was great in that movie.

>> she was in the office. >> she went to harvard, seriously. >> rashida jones. >> your father, come on, what a boring life you have. >> come on. >> thank you for being with us. >> thank you for having me. >> i'm going to keep doing the dove thing. >> dove hair.com. >> i'm going to watch "parks and recreation." >> "business before the bell" is next. rashida thank you so much. nice to meet you. >> thank you. [ indistinct talking on radio ]

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♪ >> we have a quick check on business now with cnbc melissa francis. how is it looking? >> there's a food fight going on in europe. s&p downgrading italy's debt. the prime minister firing back, saying evaluations are dictated by speculation rather than reality. both sides are wrong here.

italy is the one who invented rolling over massive amounts of government debt. they teach courses on it there. s&p is the one that missed the sub prime crisis. both are suspect. we're watching out of greece today that next tranche of debt financing. a lot going on in europe. indices higher as we get back to you. >> greece affects us, doesn't it? if things keep getting worse? it's a jolt to our economy. >> that's absolutely true. that's why we're watching it so closely. can't take our eyes off it. >> thank you. we'll be back in a moment. >> thank you so much, melissa. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution,

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♪ >> welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful sounds of carol king. what did you learn. >> big news the "morning joe" family. bill karins, proud father. taylor karins. >> welcome, congratulations. >> what did you learn? she is perfect. >> i learned that ron suskind is still waiting for mika. >> he might talk to some of the women. >> what did you learn, mika. >> get him some eggs, because he's worried about that, because that was such subliminal discrimination. i'm serious. >> it's 9:00. you know what, i'm still in the bullpen. next week, lindsay buckingham. we go over what time is it? >> it is "morning joe" as it always is.