what is it like out there tonight? >> the atmosphere right now is very thick. a lot of anticipation enter spoke with a spokeswoman for the department of corrections here in georgia, and she says they are more than midway through the execution. she believes that within ten minutes she will get some word of the official details of this execution, but this execution has already begun. now we understand that the execution has already gone through the process and are just waiting for confirmation of the details of the sequence in which this happened. instead execution table, we knew there'd be three members of the macphail family. they have roped off an area for protesters and supporters for troy davis.

his family, tom davis's family are inside that area right now. we are just waiting right now, anticipating word on this execution. as you have mentioned, this has been a very long struggle and emotional struggle on poolsides. on one side, you've had hundreds of thousands of protesters in support of him saying that the recanting of the statements from seven of the nine witnesses is more than reasonable doubt for this execution to be halted. it came down to a last-minute appeal to the u.s. supreme court. they denied that stay in this execution. you have prosecutors in the family of officer macphail saying that this has already gone through that judicial this has already been litigated. these witnesses that have recanted their statements

originally swore under oath, pointed and said that troy davis was the triggerman who shot and killed officer macphail as he tried to help a homeless man. the other side, the family, the macphail family says that this has been a long process. we have waited 22 years since he was killed. we are thirsty for justin, not bloodthirsty, but thirsty for justice at this point. we are waiting and anticipating that some of the media witnesses, and we are hoping that the macphail family will make some statements following this execution. >> what are the people outside the facility doing tonight? how are they responding to this? what are they doing now? >> you know, within the last hour, this crowd has been dead silent. throughout the night we have heard periodic hurrays and the cheers and the silence. so many people have been checking their devices, blackberries, iphones, so on and so forth.

hoping that somehow this would delay this issue of state. as the words came in, people have these unconfirmed reports as well. there were cheers and then people just waiting, silence. now there is a very, very heavy silence that has fallen over the crowd. just to give you an idea, the georgia diagnostic prison on one side, on the side of highway 36, on the other side is an everyday truck stop. mining this highway, hundreds and hundreds of supporters and protesters on the prison side, a full force right now, more than 100, i would say, georgia riot police in full gear, ready for anything that may break out. we are not trying to say that they are trying to intimidate the crowd, but they have been

here all night anticipating anything that may happen, and the outbursts. they are trying to keep everything in order. we are still waiting for official word on the details of this execution. they say it's already begun. >> thank you so much. we will come back to you. joining me now is rachel. great to have you with us. thank you for spending time with us on this big story because obviously the people that we talked to have been saying on this network all night that this is a turning point, that this is a case that will get a tremendous amount of publicity after the execution because of the way it's been handled and all of the evidence that is, what many people, fink has not been presented. a movement, what does that mean? where does this conclusion take us from here? >> the question here is substantially for many of those gathered outside that prison, about troy davis, the man, about whether he is the man that killed officer mark macphail.

sentencing him for death for the broader attention to this case, it is in the larger sense a question about the death penalty. one detail that i would draw your attention to is the means by which troy davis is being killed right now in the state of georgia. the state of georgia, like other a lethal injection states used to rely on a drug cocktail that start with sodium-tall. in small -- when that drug stopped being made in the united states, its manufacturing plant was moved to italy. the italians are not fans of the death penalty. they stopped making it. georgia is one of a handful of states that was caught out by the federal government illegally importing that drug from a fly by night drug distributor that temporarily set up shot west london.

the federal government came in and seized georgia's supply of this drug, all of the files on hand. george had to come up with an ad hoc procedure for coming up with a new way to kill its prisoners. they decided on using nembutal. anybody who has experience with that will know that is a drug that is used to put down household pets. it has never been tested in this type of use or as an anesthetic in humans. the dennis manufacturer said it should not be used in executions. it was videotaped, the first time and execution has been videotaped in 20 years, the first lethal injection chaos of the death penalty system in this country itself makes it a political issue. >> the way this has unfolded, we are in a politically hot climate in this country with an election just a little over a year ago. we have seen debates where execution was a topic of a question and response by one of the contestants.

does this shine a spotlight of special sorts, this case, and a political comment, or is this going to remain the same? will it be heightened, will it be intensified? >> so much attention this year in the past two years has been on howl of the right is evolving, splits and differences in the types of conservatives and what type of conservatism is ascendant in republican politics. if you believe the beltway media, you believe there is an ascendant strain of libertarianism among republicans and in the conservative

movement. they believe government should not be powerful and should be as small as possible. the power of a state government to kill its citizens is a power that comes invested in its a real faith in the state's power to do that well, to do that in foul play. governor rick perry of texas when he was asked about people cheering for the fact that he had overseen 235 executions in texas answered by talking about what he saw as the infallibility of the death penalty. i think the chaos and the doubts that are raised about whether justice was followed here, i think rays a real question for americans right, left and center about whether we trust the state governments to be 100% right on something they cannot take back. you cannot take that killing a person.

>> do you think, and i do, by the way, i do believe that this event that we see on full tonight is going to affect a lot of americans. i think there will be a lot of americans are thinking where they stand on the death penalty. i also think that the spotlight will be shown on the lack of resources that poor people have in our country when it comes to a formidable defense and a fair trial. i think this opens up a pandora's box about what we will see in the justice system moving forward. in case you've just joined us, the united states supreme court tonight has denied a stay of execution for 42-year-old troy anthony davis. the execution is underway. we should get official word of his passing here in a very short time. back to you, rachel. i really think that this is

somewhat of a news event and has gotten so much conversation and so many questions and a miscarriage of justice in the minds of many americans. this is one that will make people rethink the dial. what do you think? >> we have not had broad, contested, partisan politics around crime and punishment issues during this recession as a lot of people said we would. a lot of social scientists said that as of the fortunes go down, we would see a rise in crime. that would bring the crime and punishment issues and racial issues that along with those back to the fore of what we fight about as americans. crime and punishment hasn't surfaced in that way. part of the reason it hasn't is because since the last time we had a round of real, national debate on that, since last time around the clinton administration, we have seen the innocence project and others --

>> i have to interrupt. let's take to the sign about now. >> the corner it will be coming out very shortly. it will be a black man. media will move up to get video of that jam. we'll have people who are at the execution who may come out to do interviews. we will wait for them to come out and will be in the same area if they do choose to do interviews. the time of death is 11:08. >> at 11:08, the execution of troy in anthony davis was completed by the corrections facility and the state of georgia. with me, rick jemile. she will stay with us throughout the hour. the official just said we are going to hear from some of the people that were involved in this execution, explaining the process. the united states supreme court has denied a request for the stay of execution for troy davis.

we will have continuing coverage here on ms nbc. stay with us. wawhat you lood forward to all week. - oh, wow! cool! cool! - whoa! so who'd have ever thought boys night out... wouldn't hold a candle to boys night in? having a baby changes everything.

breaking news here on a miss nbc. news out of jackson, georgia. at 11:08 in short time ago, troy, anthony davis was executed. davis had been on death row for 22 years following his conviction for the murder of an off-duty police officer, mark macphail. stay tuned for our continuing coverage. ou've recently signedp for medicare or will soon, you're starting a whole new journey. and, like many people, you're probably wondering,

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georgia. we have a correspondent outside the prison in jackson, georgia. >> i can tell you just now that the first van of witnesses. i believe these are the media witnesses. they are coming up to the podium to talk about what the witness. >> let's listen to them. let's take them at the podium right now. >> made a statement in which he said he wanted to talk to the macphail family and said that despite the situation you are in, he was not the one who did it. he said he was not personally responsible for what happened that night, that he did not have a gun. he said to the family that he was sorry for their loss but also said that he did not take their son, father, brother. he said to them, to dig deeper into this case to find out the truth. he asked his family and friends

to keep praying, to keep working and keep safe. he said to the prison staff, the ones he said who are going to take my life, he said to them, may god have mercy on your souls. his last words were to them, may god bless your souls. he put his head back down, procedure began, and about 50 minutes later it was over. >> any questions? [ indiscernible question ] >> pretty much me. [ indiscernible question ] >> any questions? >> if you want more quotes, we can give them to you. i am wrong the cooked with the atlanta constitution. he said, the incident that night was not my fault. i did not have a gun. that is when he told his friends to continue to fight and look deeper into this case so you can

really find the truth. for those about to take my life, may god have mercy on your souls, may god bless not personally kill your son, father and brother. i am innocent. >> you have then to an execution before. how, if at all, was this a different? >> there was was tight security, but prison folks here are professionals and have done this before. it went pretty much as planned. i have the execution started at around 10:53. he was declared dead at 11:08.

>> he is talking very quickly. my quickly. he was defiant until the very end maintaining his innocence until the very end. he spoke quickly. he looked at one of his attorneys were sitting on the second row. he appeared to glance at the attorney who nodded at him. mark mcfail was sitting in the front row and he was looking at -- mark was looking at mr. davis the entire time, it seemed. and once he was declared dead we were ushered out. >> how would you describe the mood? >> somber. how else? it was just a somber event. we were all waiting for about 4 1/2 hours in the prison with no details on what was happening. and then when we were ushered into the prison itself we knew that -- we assumed at least the supreme court had rejected his final appeal.

>> [ inaudible ] >> his brother named william and-mark mcfail jr. >> no. mark mcfail leaned forward through the whole process and his uncle, william mcfail sat back. neither seemed to move at all. >> they spent the entire time just staring at troy davis, never turned their heads, never did anything but stare ahead. then when it was over, as they were leaving they hugged somebody and they seemed to smile about it. so the mcfail family, at least, they seemed to get some satisfaction from what happened. >> what was there from the mcfail family? >> pardon? >> who was there? >> mark mcfail jr., his son, and the officer's brother, william mcfail. >> beg your pardon? >> [ inaudible ] >> he was saying he was innocent.

he said to the mcfail family again that he was not the one responsible for what -- he was not personally responsible for what happened has night. he said that he did not have a gun. he said that he was not the one who took their son, father, brother. and he said he was innocent. and that was to the end. he lifted his head up. he was strapped to the gurney when we walked. in and when the warden asked if he had to make a statement, he lifted his head up and looked directly at the front row where the mcfail family and friends were sitting and said, i want to address the mcfail family, and made sure they heard what he had to say which was that he claimed he was innocent. he was not responsible for what happened that night in 1989. he did not have a gun. he was not personally responsible for the death of officer mcfail. and i'm paraphrasing but this is what he was saying. then he addressed his friends and family telling them to keep praying, keep working, keep digging into this case. then he said to the staff, he said to the people who are about

to take my life, may god have mercy on your souls and may god bless your souls. then that was it. >> [ inaudible ] >> we couldn't see their faces. they were sitting in the first row so we did not see how they react to it. all i can say is watching them while this was going on, they never turned their heads, they never wavered the entire time. they just staerd at him through the glass as the execution was taking place. >> [ inaudible ] >> do you know if he was strapped to the gurney the entire time? >> no idea. we weren't there. >> [ inaudible ] i didn't see anybody. just the attorney for him. >> [ inaudible ] >> no. ewert, jason ewert. >>. [ inaudible ] >> that i don't know. i don't believe he did have a last meal. i don't believe he made a final statement when he was going to be given the opportunity to

record one. but he did make the statement as we said while he was strapped to the chair -- strapped to the gurney and again addressed directly to the mcfail family first to let them know he said that he was innocent. >> he did not eat his dinner. and he did not take the atavan. [ inaudible ] >> did he actively participate in a prayer? i know that's something they offered. >> he was offered but he did not. then they started the execution. he blinked rapidly for some period of time. and then he went out. they checked him for conciousness. warden came back into the death chamber, went back out again. then they started the lethal mixture. again the whole thing took about 15 minutes. 11:08 the warden came in and pronounced him dead. >> did he make any final statement? >> he was strapped to the gurney when we came in. everything that happened he was already strapped to the gurney. we came, in the warden was in the room with him.

another prison official. medical attendant plus one that was off to the side. and then troy davis strapped to the gurney. the warden read while we were there read the order from the chatham county judge, asked troy davis if he had any statement. davis made his statement. they ordered the procedure to go on. he asked if he had a prayer first. there was no response. the warden stepped out of the death chamber, then it started. >>. [ inaudible ] >> a member of the medical staff was in there. and also somebody else who was out of our eyesight off to the side. there were two other people in the death chamber with him. one was a medical attendant who was monitoring the thing the whole time, monitoring the lethal injection. and then somebody off to the side. once the procedure was over, two doctors came in, both used stethoscopes, one checked vital signs, eyes, pulse and the like. then they nodded in agreement. that's when the warden pronounced him dead.

>> actually this is a highly-publicized case. what was it like to be a witness for this [ inaudible ] >> it was somber. none of these are easy. it was very quiet, much more so. the only sound where we were sitting was the sound of the air conditioner. people weren't moving. i mean, it was not even some casual movements. i think everybody in there understood the enormity of what was going on and acted accordingly. it was very, very quiet, very respectful and very somber. >> did he make any physical gestures? gestures? y >> the lethal injection started at 10:53. he turned his head very slightly to his left the same minute that the lethal injection started. the next mini have him blinking his eyes, a little more rapidly for a very brief few seconds. i have him squeezing his eyeses shut for maybe a second and then opening them again.

then at 10:54, about a minute after lethal injection started i have him appearing to yawn. and then around 10:55 it started slowing down. and then at 10:58, which was five minutes after the lethal injection started they did a consciousness check to make sure he was unconcious before they started the next two lethal injection drugs that paralyze his body and stopped his heart. after that there was no movement except for slower breathing. >> [ inaudible ] >> we saw a county coroner truck pull up to the death chamber minutes before we walked in. so i'm assuming it is going to go out to the county coroner truck. >> [ inaudible ] >> thank you. >> members of the georgia media eyewitness to an execution of

troy anthony davis, who was pronounced dead tonight at 11:08 eastern time in the death chamber at the jackson, georgia facility. defiant was the word that was used to describe him. a somber mood, obviously in the chamber as reported by john lewis from wsb radio in georgia. and talking to his friends and family, a message for them to dig deeper and find the truth about what happened and telling the mcfail family that he did not have a gun and he was not responsible for the death of officer mcfail. i'm joined now by the president and ceo of the naacp, ben gellis joining me by phone tonight. ben, defiant was the word that was used to describe troy anthony davis, but a very interesting message. and following these in the past it seemed that he had more to say than most people who are about to be executed, asking his

friends and family to dig deeper. how do you receive that tonight, ben? >> you know, i think he said everything that you would expect troy davis to say. this is not your typical case. this is a case where a man for 22 years has contended that he is innocent and that every year, recently every day, more and more information came forward confirming that. i first met his sister 15 years ago. and i had my doubts. but as i dug into the case more, as she dug into the case more, every year it became clearer and clearer that she was right, that troy was telling the truth. and so you would expect him to say those three things that we heard that he said tonight. you would expect him to say, i am innocent. you would expect him to say keep digging. and you would expect a man of such deep faith who quite frankly had grown close to many of the guards. there was a moment the other day when my staff was over visiting

and the family was over visiting the guard leaned in and said, please hold it together for the sake of us. because we're all sitting here trying to hold it together. the guard talked about how his mom was praying for troy davis and for justice to be done here. these guards are human, too. and the fact that he would look at them in the eye and say, you know, may god have mercy on you for what you have to do, may god bless your souls, speaks to the strong spiritual conviction that he has. and we should all shudder that it's possible for the supreme court to be so fixated on the letter of the law, the limits of our constitution, that it disrespects the spirit of our great country and actually lets a man be executed amid so much doubt. so clear to so many that this man was innocent. >> ben jealous, of the naacp president and ceo with us tonight. the words that he spoke, dig deeper, will this be a motivating factor in some sense for those advocacy groups out there that have maintained that this is just a miscarriage of justice?

what will those words really mean to those groups and people that have followed this, ben? >> you know, the reality is that this is what many have come to believe, which is that it's time for us to really question the death penalty in a way that's final. we have seen it abolished in three states in the last two years. state of illinois, new jersey, new mexico. if we can just abolish it in ten more we can abolish it completely in this country and get america to catch up with the rest of the western world. but you know, tonight people are filing out of here. we were in a special kind of place on the prison ground for people who were supportive of troy and his quest to clear his name. people left here somber but they also left here deeply committed. the reality is that right now in living rooms across this country there are people who woke up this morning knowing that they supported the death penalty who have to be questioning, questioning how can i support it when the instrument can be so blunt that we can execute somebody even when the form head of the fbi says stop.

when the former warden at this prison says stop. when right wing congressman bob barr, former prosecutor for georgia says stop. and so many others. that yet we just push on blindly, not knowing amid so much doubt whether we're doing the right thing or not. and it is terrifying. all we had to do was to see this sentence commute today life without the possibility of parole. and the family would know that -- one family would know that things could be reversed, the truth finally was -- we finally got the new trial that we had been fighting for. the other family would know that this man who had been convicted would not be on the streets barring his innocence being proved in court. but now we have done something which cannot be revoked. c

we have killed a man amid just a pile of doubt. >> ben jealous, unequivocally do you think that state of georgia put an innocent man to death tonight. >> absolutely. absolutely. i worked on this case for 15 years, reviewed thousands of cases in that period. i have never seen a case like this. i sat with a woman today on cnn who was terrified for her life. just a few months ago fleed savannah, georgia because just a few years ago the man who many say is the actual killer threatened her. excuse me. a few years ago he admitted in front of her and many others that he had actually killed officer mcfail. and when she made it clear a few months ago she intended to let the world know that and that she would support troy and his quest to save his life, he threat enned her. she was so terrified she moved her entire family out of savannah, georgia. she had come forward to the media once before, she had never talked about the daily terror that she lives in.

and she's finally done that hoping that that will give her a greater sense of protection that world knows that her life is threatened every day. you know, you don't see that. >> ben, that seems like a terrible injustice that there would be no one in our criminal justice system that would follow up and take action concerning the woman that you're talking about. this sounds to me like a horrible failure. where is the curiosity of the prosecutor in this case? >> yes. where is the commitment to justice? and you know, that's really a very disturbing thing. the reality is that there's a lot of people who pushed for years to make sure that we diversity law enforcement. here we have a black chair of the board of pardons, we have a black d.a. in savannah. and you know, it's proof that simply changing the color of the -- of law enforcement doesn't necessarily change the color of justice, if you will, in this country. the reality is that we need people in there of all colors, black or white, who have the

courage to do the right thing and to stand up and say if there's doubt i'm not going to execute. when in doubt, don't. we saw that from the former warden but we couldn't get it from the d.a. or the chairman of the board of pardons. >> president and ceo of the naacp, ben jealous with is tonight, saying that he believes that state of georgia has executed an innocent man. former georgia prison warden allen ault and our own rachel maddow when we come back. stay with us. you're watching msnbc.

he said that night it was not my fault, i did not have a gun. that's when he told his friends to continue to fight and look deeper into this case so you can really find the truth. for those about to take my life, may god have mercy on your soul, may god bless your souls. and to the macphail family he said, of course, "i did not personally kill your son, father and brother. i am innocent". >> welcome back to the msnbc and our continuing coverage of the execution of troy davis. joining me now is allan ault, retired director of the georgia department of corrections and

former warden of the georgia diagnostic and classification prison where he oversaw executions for the state of georgia. mr. ault, thanks for your time tonight. please describe what happened today from your understanding of how this unusually plays out. >> well, as the commissioner of corrections i was involved in several executions. and it's one thing to theory rise about it or talk about it abstractly. but when you're in the death chamber ordering an execution, and even if you in your mind if you're a man of conscience actually believe somebody is guilty, it's still a very premeditated murder. i mean, it's scripted and rehearsed. it's about as premeditated as any killing that you can do. and then when there is doubt, either way it exact a heavy toll

on those who are charged by the state to execute somebody. this hit close to home, since in the 70s i was a warden there. and in the 90s i was asked as commissioner of corrections to execute several people. several of my colleagues who have been involved in execution other states feel as i do. now i'm a dean of a college of justice, so that's ironic. but i know all the research, and i know how unevenly the death penalty is applied with thousands of variables that go into it. and i know that it does not deter. and if somebody asked you to wreak vengeance for somebody else, i think that's asking too much.

all the civilized world except the u.s. have banned the death penalty years ago. and when i was a warden at jackson, the same place the execution happened, there had been a ban on the death penalty. and it wasn't until 1974 that first law enacted in georgia set the pattern for other states to enact a law that brought it back again. >> mr. ault, there's tremendous despair in your voice tonight. and i appreciate your time very much. but i have to ask you the same question i asked ben jealous. draw on your experience and your knowledge, do you think that state of georgia executed an innocent man tonight? >> i have no way of knowing that one way or the other.

but i think that we have found so many in the last few years with scientific advances that were innocent that we continue to execute people when there is doubt, i don't think that has anything to do with justice. >> mr. ault, what about the unusual circumstances surrounding all of this? do you think that this case, this event, this execution tonight, is going to change a lot of attitudes in this country? country? >> well, at one time i had hoped that that would happen. but you know, we have presidential candidates who say that signing execution orders doesn't bother their conscience at all. but i still think that men of conscience, it does bother them. and if people were aware of all the facts about capital punishment, i think logically

they would change their mind. but logic does not always prevail as you well know. >> dr. ault, stay with us. let's bring back rachel maddow who wants to ask you a question tonight. rachel? >> reporter: dr. ault, you signed onto a letter tonight asking georgia corrections officials to reconsider this case specifically highlighting the toll that this would take on corrections officers and other people in the corrections system involved in this execution, saying that you understand from your own personal experiences the awful lifelong repercussions that come from participating in the execution of prisoners. i wounded if just in terms of those of us who know and care about government workers and people who are public servants and working for corrections departments if you could describe what you meant by that, the kind of repercussions this might have for people who work

in the system. >> well, in my experience i could have stayed in tlnt but i chose to go to jackson. i didn't ask staff to do something i wouldn't do. but i know that we tried to get psychological and psychiatric help for all the people that participated. and one day i understood fully that i was finding it for everybody but me. and then i realized what a heavy toll that i had taken on me and my conscience. i still have reoccurring problems with that. and i'm sure i will the rest of my life. i've talked to other colleagues who have participated as i did in other states or with the federal government. and those people, people of conscience, had the same type of struggle that i did. if i thought that it actually

deterred and i tried to use that rationale when i was participating, that i thought if i'd save one life maybe it was worth it. but i soon realized that is not what capital punishment is all about. >> dr. ault, you highlighted in this letter you wrote to corrections officials in georgia today with other wardens of death row prisons i should mention, but you highlighted the particular toll on corrections officials when there is a case of doubt or when there is a case of a prisoner who is to be executed who maintains his or her innocence until the very end. but when i hear you talking about it tonight, i hear you not using those qualifications just about prisoners who maintain they are innocent. do you think that type of toll for corrections staff, people involved in executions, is just

about executing people even in cases where there isn't doubt about guilt or innocence? >> it exact a toll whether you believe they're innocent or they're guilty. you're actually killing somebody. now, there are people without conscience, psychopathic type payment, some politicians and saidists who would volunteer. i had letters volunteering to kill people. but i think the state -- i would hate to see us fall to be that depraved that they would let people like that do the executions. i have -- after i have reviewed all the research as a professor and as a dean, and i know that it does not deter crime. i can't see the justification. and if we're just reaping vengeance for somebody, i don't see the justification in that, either. i have talked to a lot of families of victims who didn't feel fulfilled after the executions took place. i can't speak for all the families of victims, but i know i've talked to many.

>> dr. allan ault and rachel maddow, thank you for staying with us. coming up next, barry scheck of the innocence project and ari melber of the nation. our coverage of the execution of troy anthony davis continues here on nsnbc. stay with us. [ mendes ] you know when something's bad -- but you do it anyway?

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he asked his family and friends to keep praying, for keep working and keep the faith, and then he said to the prison staff, the ones he said who are going to take my life, he said to them, "may god have mercy on your souls". and his last words were to them," may god bless your souls". then he put his head back down.

the procedure began. about 15 minutes later it was over. >> welcome back to the ed show here on msnbc and our ongoing coverage of the execution of troy anthony davis. joining me now to discuss the legal aspect of this story is lawyer and columnist to "the nation" magazine ari melber. also joining us on the phone is barry scheck, co-founder of the innocence project. thanks to both of you for joining us tonight. ari, let's start with you first. were there aspects of this case that made it more an important one for a stay of execution despite tonight's result? >> absolutely. as several of your guests have pointed out, one aspect was a change in key eyewitness testimony. people who at one point believed one thing and later believed another. another aspect was of course reports, many credible, about the prospect of a different suspect. and the third aspect, one that we really have to hammer i think here and one that i know you've brought up repeatedly in your

interest in justice issues is the racial aspect, the fact that when you look at the way the death penalty is used in the united states and when you look at the way prosecutors pursue these cases, whether it is deliberate or accidental, whether it is something that we think comes from a direct racial -- or other types of coincidence or juries, the fact on the data is all out there that shows that death penalty is disproportionately used many times against african americans. and that's an issue that we have to weigh in addition to all the other tough issues tonight. one thing i want to say to you, ed, you asked an important question repeatedly tonight about whether an innocent man was executed. but if we take one step back as we think through all these issues tonight, we know from the innocence project that 273 people have had post-conviction dna exonerations. that means that science has told us what juries didn't, which is that it turned out they were not guilty.

17 of those people, i would highlight, were at one time on death row. and lastly, 166 of those 273 post-conviction exonerations were people who were african-americans. so that all fits in to the real questions we have to continue to press about how this system works in the united states. >> i am so troubled tonight by the fact that there was a woman that spoke with ben jealous who said that she had been told that her life was threatened and that she had to move and that she had been told by someone who said he was the killer, and yet there was no one in the system that could take that information and follow up on it. and that's what i find so terribly troubling, that that, whether this gentleman was innocent or guilty tonight, that someone wasn't there to follow up on it with all of the different stories and evidence surrounding it that was not brought forward. barry scheck, how does that play with you, someone who's been in this profession for so many years and obviously been involved in information coming out after the execution? what about this piece of

information tonight, barry? >> well, you know, ed, i want to add one important factor to what ari listed about this case. and that has to do with the ballistics evidence. everybody agrees, the georgia bureau of investigation agrees, that ballistics evidence that was put before the jury, that in an effort to tie a gun and a motive to troy davis, was unreliable and should never have gone before the jury. unreliable forensic evidence. indeed, one of the jurors told the board of pardon and paroles yesterday that if she had known that that evidence, ballistics evidence, was unreliable she never would have voted to execute him. and she said it play add very large role in the jury deliberations. now, i raise that because remember, innocence project we have over 270 post-conviction

dna exonerations in so many of these cases we actually find the p but most of them were eyitness misidentification. 75%. but a lot of them involved unreliable forensic science as a contributing factor. and there are two cases, two very important cases, ed, that have to be covered in the course of this political campaign. one is of course the case of cameron todd willingham that you have covered which deals with a man that governor perry executed based on unreliable arson evidence and now what is shown to be the perjurious testimony of the jailhouse snitch. everybody -- most disinterested legal observers believe that there's powerful evidence that willingham was innocent and executed. but what's even worse about it is governor perry has been engaged in a concerted campaign to cover up the fact that the arson evidence in that case was unreliable.

now, that's extremely serious issue. there is also a case, the last person that george w. bush executed, claude jones, we went back and found hair that was the key legal evidence in the case, post-execution dna test was done on that and showed that it wasn't his. so these are very troubling cases. >> barry scheck, i appreciate your time tonight. ari melber, "the nation" magazine, thank you so much. thanks for joining us.