wi 1932.q that's just how we do it on way too early. "morning joe" starts right now.q i'm wondering what ea- one of our candidates wouldxdt( pro to do as president to help smal( businesses like mine to hire new employees. business and big business, we need to make america the most attractive place in the world for business. that means our employer tax rates have to be attractive. smallest business pays at high rates. >> i think you earned every dollar, you should get to keep every dollar.

that's your money, that's not the government's money. that's the whole point. barack obama seems to think that when we earn money, it belongs to him. and we're lucky just to keep a little bit of it. i don't think that at all. i think when people make money, it's their money. >> all right. >> 0% tax rate, sign me up. >> we're all ge. i love it. >> do we just have bake sales and stuff? >> we have bake sales. you see those roads right there? bake sale. about to make a point about the roads. well, i guess, willie, it must be "morning joe." >> good morning. >> all right. >> hey, good morning, it's friday, september 23rd. with us onset mike barnicle, also from "new york" magazine john heilemann, also harold ford

jr. you know, i thought to myself, john heilemann, a fiscal conservative, never voted for a tax increase in my life, but michele bauchmann, she super sizes me. you should not have to pay any of your money to the government. who knew? who knew that for all of those years the government's were paying taxes that you could have bake sales? >> who knew that michele bauchmann could get to the more libertarian right of ron paul. she didn't realize. no government, nothing, let's just shut the whole thing down. i don't know what she wants to be president of. >> we had this fox debate last night. and i've got to say, mitt romney's looking pretty darn good. >> yeah. >> he is looking pretty darn good. i never thought i'd say that. >> he is looking very good. and on the other side, you've

got governor rick "stop me before i debate again" perry. the contrast is startling. for mitt romney, it was a huge night. each debate is a bigger and bigger night for romney, i think. >> t.j., i want you to get a shot of barnicle and myself. willie and i when mika's in the south of france for the first hour, we're together. i said it's too much meat, we're going to have barnicle sitting next to me. but this is a good opportunity, mike to show -- you talk to me like -- you're mitt romney, you keep looking at me. and did you notice this? because i had so many e-mails, one from my brother. so mitt's looking at him the whole night. and he goes like this, well, mitt, you don't understand that when you wrote -- it was really weird. did you see the debate? you see how he never made eye contact? rick perry looked uncomfortable

as a chimp opening a suitcase. >> by the way, mike murphy had one last night, i don't want to spoil it for you yet, but he outedit himself. >> why don't i tell t.j. to put it up right now. and we should get to it by the end of the third hour. >> i noticed the previous debates. >> t.j. said, boom. >> this from mike murphy. wow, that last perry bit was painful. i get the feeling that mike murphy's a fan of rick perry. >> there's perry looking at romney. but you're right. >> when he talks, he can't talk and look at the same time. >> he makes eye contact at the camera like he's doing right here. that's one of his -- >> good looking rascal. >> he is a good-looking rascal. so the presidential hopefuls are descended on florida last night.

obviously crucial swing state. and let's take a look at a little clip in the debate and then get harold ford jr.'s response. >> it's not the first time that mitt's been wrong on some issues before. and the bottom line is, we never said that we were going to move this back to the states. >> it's different than what the governor put in his book just six months ago. there's a rick perry out there that you can almost quote, it says that the federal government shouldn't be in the pension business, that it's unconstitutional. unconstitutional, and it should be returned to the states. so you better find that rick perry and get him to stop saying that. now, my own -- >> speaking of books and talking about being able to have things in your books and back and forth, your economic adviser talked about romney care and how that was an absolute bust and it was exactly what obama care was all about. as a matter of fact, between books, your hard copy book, you said it was exactly what the

american people needed to have that romny care given to them as you had massachusetts. and then in your paperback, you took that line out. so speaking of not getting it straight in your book, sir. >> governor perry? governor perry, we were talking about social security, but if you want to talk about health care, i'm happy to do that. >> we are going to have a round. >> i actually wrote my book, and in my book i said no such thing. >> now, harold, we brought you in because little do you know out there harold is a big supporter of democrats for perry. you're here to defend rick perry. go. >> look, when the republican debate is about which republican candidate for president wants to defend social security. i think two things are happening. one, republicans are having a

big problem with their frame right now. you've got rick perry who is appealing to part of their party and their base. as uneven as his performance is and as uncomfortable it is to watch, he is appealing to one element of the party. two, if you're a barack obama democrat, you have to feel somewhat relieved because if the president and democrats want to stake this fight of entitlements and defending those struggling into the middle class, the fact that republicans can't agree on social security is a positive thing. no doubt, i would agree with you, mitt romney emerges a winner last night, emerges a winner for one single reason, he looked presidential more than any of the other people on the stage. and you compare with bauchmann's comments, probably second to him would have been herman cain and newt gingrich. >> newt gingrich had pretty good performances the last couple of debates, but mike haleprin gives him no respect. >> santorum had a pretty good night last night too. not that he'll ever be the

republican nominee. >> romney, a, santorum, b plus, huntsman, c, cain c minus, johnson c minus, gingrich had done well the past couple of debates. >> i think gingrich had a better night than c. just on the basis of that one line alone. >> mark has been tough on gingrich for a while. unlike us, we've been straight down the middle. santorum and huntsman had quite a back and forth on afghanistan. and you -- it was a fascinating part for me, mike barnicle, we talk about it all the time. but when you have huntsman saying, bring them home, let's rebuild american stuff. you get a lot of cheers, and then you would have santorum

take you to double down, stay there, and you would hear cheers on the other side of the hall. sounds like the republican party is split on that issue. >> you also had rick santorum saying something quite mystifying, i think, to some people that one of the things we ought to do in order to solidify our position there is to talk to pervez musharraf who is in excise living in london. >> i think the only thing he can do is order you up some tea. >> what about admiral mullen yesterday in pakistan? >> yeah, exactly. wow. that's a huge story. >> yeah. >> call them to the carpet basically saying that the isi was in cahoots in blowing up in the embassy. saying they were involved, pakistan is involved. >> it's rough stuff. so do we all agree around the table regarding the debate that

willie, do you agree last night was a pretty big night for mitt romney? >> for romney. >> and the more debates he can have standing next to rick perry, the closer he comes to taking it all? >> i think rick perry is not getting better through each debate the way you would expect him to. he didn't look like he -- he jumps in late, maybe he has a rough first debate, figure he reads in on some of the things. i don't think he's getting better, and i think romney is. romney's been more loose than he was last time. he's responding on his feet, funny, a different candidate than he's been in the past. >> and romney didn't answer that, but he started talking about why he believes in american capitalism. and that's the most passion i've heard romney in a debate. >> i think romney has been throughout all of the debates so far, he's giving consistently good performances, and in different ways. at the beginning when he was still the front runner before

perry got in the race, nobody laid a glove on him. he looked presidential, looked big, now he's not the front runner anymore, and he's gotten a little bit feistier and has shone in that. he's the only one who has given every single time given a really solid performance. i still think you look at perry, the expectation -- he has not debated in a long time. his advisers admit he's not a great debater. as willie said, every time he doesn't do that well, the expectations mount for him more because people think, well, certainly now they will go with a deep debate prep mode and he'll do much better. and last night, i think that's what hurts him more than anything. and it starts to raise questions about with all the expectations focused on him in this way the fact he continues in some ways to get worse with each debate. it started to raise the question of why he can't address this problem when all the world is looking at this one issue.

in the political world. >> there are also troubling moments in the debate when you're looking at perry where it's obvious he's lost. it's obvious he doesn't know what he's talking about. it's obvious that he's confused. and those are not moments that are going to land in a story in the "wall street journal." those are not moments that a lot of people on news shows are going to talk about. because it's not -- it sounds unkind. >> it's hard to put your arms around. but it's the thing that the american people know when they see it. the press doesn't report on it. they look at rick perry, and he looks lost. and you're going to start seeing that in polls, i expect soon. >> and as you know, and people who have been in office have some experience with it. when you are taken off your strongest points. he started this race as the front runner, somebody that created jobs, someone understood how to get the economy going. he's now caught up trying to explain social security,

vaccinations, and his positions on immigration. and he seems to be at odds with either half of the republican party or the core of the party on the other two issues. rick perry probably if given the time, john, could be a good debater. the question is, does he want to be one? and will mitt romney allow him over the next several debates to shine? i think romney, this is the best thing that's happened to mitt romney. he's been forced to in many ways sharpen his game, hone his skills, and be able to defend his positions and more importantly where he wants to take the country. >> this is great for mitt romney. >> you know what it gets to, joe. it gets to what i call the viewer/voter pattern. people at home watching the debate with the clicker in ha er hand looking for a ball game, and perry does not look great in those moments. romney, cosmetically looks presidential, or he does not. >> here's one thing.

just to get to what harold said. perry came into this race with record strength giving him advantages. now he's being asked, what's your vision for the economy, how to fix the american economy. he says, look at texas, we lowered taxes in texas. compared to mitt romney, and say what you will about the substance of it, romney's 59-point economic plan, which sounds like i'm a serious person who has thought hard about how to fix the nation's economy, i'm not just saying, oh, look at my record in massachusetts. here's a prospective plan. >> he's going to have to come up with an actual -- >> perry has had a hard time. his economy's built on oil and gas and energy. he's had a hard time defining and articulating what he did and how you transform. take that economy and put on top of the -- i may not agree with it, but it'll be interesting to hear him talk. >> well, and the thing is --

rick perry didn't do that. texas did that. >> owe, he can't even talk about it. >> i understand. >> he should figure out a way to do it. but maybe a bigger problem is texas is texas. it's doing great. job growth under george w. bush was great. job growth under richards is higher than it was under rick perry. texas is texas. it is the great republic of texas. and they don't need a governor telling them how to bring jobs to that state. >> it's a right to work state. it's got a huge supply of low-cost labor because of the -- because of the immigrant population. those are huge advantages that have nothing to do with policy, they are built into texas. that's fair. >> i think it's fascinating also, willie. here you have the guy who is the conservative candidate.

but he's getting it from both sides. he's getting it because he's reckless on social security, but he's also getting it on immigration, on forced immunization of teenage girls. all of these issues that make him -- make him the target from the left and the right. >> rick santorum went at him really hard last night on immigration debate. saying by the way, ron paul said he hasn't been so great for the state of texas. i'm from the state of texas. and to your point, john, putting out an argument. it's the same thing with social security. he says it's unconstitutional, wants to send it back to the states, that's all fine, but he needs to explain how he would do that. >> and he's not defending that position. he's starting to back from that. it was originally, there was something kind of, you know, gutsy about the way he was kind of all in on it. ponzi scheme, i'm not backing away from it. last night he was seeming to suggest he really only wants to bring it back to the state to

state employees. and so even becoming -- even the one thing he had going for him which was backbone and i'll double down on it, he's now starting to buckle a little bit. and that's not good for his image of strength and consistency. one story, pakistan, the other story moving across cross wi the wires, the yankees totally caved. they don't even try. i got a poll last night -- i was going to watch them last night. paul mccartney's ballet. >> yeah? >> great. in every respect. his daughter stella did the costumes, the new york city ballet. it was extraordinary. while you're watching the game. >> at the ballet.

>> joe scarborough. >> i get out and i see that i've missed 12 calls from gerardi. they weren't even trying. come on. >> 15-8, they took the day off. >> did they take the weekend off? the red sox are coming to town. we need them to take a dive. >> if it rains all weekend, it'll be hard to get the games in. >> take the weekend off and come back really refreshed for their series with the rays, that would be helpful. >> the yankees said yesterday they're going to play hard. martin the catcher said "anything to get the red sox out would be awesome. i hate the red sox." russell martin, the yankee catcher, i guess they are going to play this weekend. >> maybe so. well, that answers that. coming up next, we'll get mike allen's take of the debate.

also, this hour, willie's weekend review, but first, here's the weekend forecast with meteorologist ryan phillips. come on, ryan, give us good news. >> rain, rain, rain. >> no. >> umbrellas all weekend long, unfortunately. the rain's organizing, they're moving in, and once they arrive this afternoon, they're going to stick around all weekend long. heavy rain, in fact, from d.c. to philly. flood watch in effect there up in new york city. once the rain starts, they're going to stick around. temperatures humid into the 70s for today. if it's going to dry out, you've got to go west, denver, 81, dallas, 86. and even into tomorrow, the rain noc., 76 in new york, storms down in florida. that's a look at your forecast. stick around, more "morning joe" coming your way after the break. ♪

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for accounts receivable today. i mean i know that this is important. well, both are important. let's be clear. they are but this is important too. [ man ] the receivables. [ male announcer ] michelin knows it's better for xerox to help manage their finance processing. so they can focus on keeping the world moving. with xerox, you're ready for real business. peace will not come through statements and resolutions, it is the israelis and palestinians, not us, who must agree. >> thank you for interest in our building, and please come back once you have a letter of recommendation from your mortal enemy.

i have an idea, maybe this will make it more palatable, have you thought about a spelling change? nice. good. good. wait, wait, i still don't know if it's enough. no! welcome to the world community! >> it's that easy. now to our parade of papers. arizona's new freshman congressman who sits on the house financial committee panel introduced a bill that would get rid of the paper dollar in four years or less. he wants americans to switch to dollar coins saying it'll save the u.s. more than -- come on, man, they do this every couple of years. and we just fed right into it. >> come on. >> the colorado springs gazette,

reality tv ted haggard revealed he went on a drug binge and slept with a male hooker is scheduled to begin shooting an episode of "celebrity wife swap." it's all true. the article points out that the girlfriend stephanie sampson is not a fan of organized religion. so just wait for it. >> is he still married? >> no! >> no, i think he's back with his -- i think they reunited. >> yeah, they worked it out. >> so it's not going to be the male prostitute? that would make it really good. >> no, the family worked it out. >> she's not a fan of organized religion? is haggard still allowed into churches after all that? >> only his own, i'm afraid. sunday's "parade" magazine, george clooney for president. in his new movie, at least. the actor talks to "parade" about his new political drama,

the ides of march and his involvement in sudan. and he's been involved in that extraordinarily important issue for a long time. and this sunday's issue, "sunday joe." >> it was televangelists who do things with male hookers. because that's really challenging. you've got the internet and -- >> your kids in the age of ted haggard. >> ted haggard. and this is -- >> it's a haggard age. so i hear this clooney movie is great. >> yeah. it is. i've seen it. >> how have you seen "money ball," how do you see every movie a month early, barnicle? >> barnicle knows people. >> i saw parts of it in june. >> come on. >> john edwards, parts of it will remind you of john edwards. >> first of all, how did you see it? and secondly, is it great? >> i saw it at a little private

screening. >> it must be nice to be hooked in. >> he saw it the same way he parked in the players' parking lot at fenway. he's barnicle. >> he's barnicle. i don't know how he does it. but seriously, it's unbelievable. >> what's going on there? >> the life of barnicle. alex just said they actually do it because they don't want the epidemic in public theaters. >> that's harsh, alex. man, man. >> the movie's good? >> yeah, it's based on a play that was written by a guy named beau willamond about the dean campaign. and it's morphed in different ways. it's been rewritten and it's a very -- it's something. >> some great actors, of course, we're clooney fans. >> but ryan gosselin -- >> apart from willie and joe.

>> and harold and mike. >> thank you. >> there's some other great actors in this movie too, right? >> there are. >> who's the woman in the movie? >> phillip seymour hoffman's in there. >> i think he's one of the best -- >> he's awesome. >> he's in "money ball" too, right? >> he is. >> what part? >> he's the manager. >> plays art hal. >> poor art hal. >> let's do politico. >> and mike allen, what do you think of the "ides of march." >> have you seen "ides of march march?" >> tonight i'm going to have to see "money ball" just like the regular joes. >> same here. >> did you see "ides of march?" >> not yet, so maybe we'll make it a double feature. >> good. >> not a lot of movie fit with the playbook sleep schedule. >> good point. >> wait a second.

hep hasn't said it yet. what's going on? >> come on. say it, mike. >> happy friday. >> there he is. >> okay. now we can get going. you watched the debate last night. tell us what you thought. >> well, very tough night for rick perry. we have a headline up that says texas toast? the perry mobile went from zero to front runner in just a week and we're starting to see the stress fractures of that in the debate last night. we saw perry take a very clumsy shot at immigration hard-liners in his party. he didn't have good answers for mitt romney, looked a little stumbling. our guys james holman mike harden wrote a story about this. they conceded the point that he's had rough outings in these debates.

they say he's only be in a few weeks. the unpolished -- how is this for trying to make lemonade. he says that the unpolished performance shows he'sless scriless scripted and more genuine than mitt romney. >> go ahead. >> he says there's one other president who wasn't good at debates, that was ronald reagan. >> come on. >> ronald reagan had run three times before. so we're seeing -- we're also seeing in the campaign operation. we're hearing about big republicans -- >> ronald reagan wasn't good in debates? where were they in october of 1980? the debates single handedly put him over the top. >> that's a pretty high bar. >> i'll pay for that microphone. >> and the new hampshire national. >> what does he do here, mike? how does he turn around this narrative? >> well, there's that choice, but they're having one every week. >> what they're trying to do is

say that the mood, the tone of the times, at a time when people don't like in polls that people are moving away from the president that they're going to want the most different person that you can have just as president obama was the anti-bush, they're hoping that rick perry can be the anti-obama. he plays that up. he talks about how there's no one more different than i than the president. that's for sure. >> the president might agree with that. >> i was going to say. >> by that measure, i think ron paul will be our next president, right? >> yeah. exactly. >> happy friday to you. thank you. still ahead, we'll bring in maryland governor martin o'mally, and washington post columnist eugene robinson. keep it on "morning joe." so, how was school today ? i have to be a tree in the school play. good. you like trees. well, i like climbing them, but i've never been one. good point. ( captain ) this is your captain speaking. annie gets to be the princess. oh...

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sensing the natives are a little restless. i don't know where i've gathered that. >> what do you say? >> he thought it was funny. >> i bet he did. talk about a clip online, go to youtube, research rick. if you're a child under the age

of 40 -- >> not 40. >> let's do some sports. yankees and rays wrapping up a four-game series. yankees clinching the division. clinch the division. the rays had a chance -- >> making up some ground in the wild card race against boston, red sox had the night off, and it was not a good day or evening. for the yankees. sign of things to come. look at bartolo falling off the mound. he gave up five runs in the first two innings, then in the third, a two-run home run. braves destroy the yankees, 15-8, avoid the sweep, half game on boston in the wild card. the other team hot on the red sox' heels, the los angeles angels, and toronto taking on the blue jays. the jays' carnation helping out a bit. the blue jays, 4-3, tough loss

for the angels. here are the standings right now. tampa bay with the win now two back, the angels fall to three back, the red sox start a three-game series against the yankees tonight. lots and lots of rain in the forecast this weekend. so we'll see if they get them in. rays host toronto. >> st. louis cardinals ended the day a game and a half behind the braves. atlanta had the night off, so the cardinals looked like they were cruising to a win to move within one game of the braves. albert pujols, his 37th home run of the year. and cardinals take a 6-2 lead in the ninth inning. just put it away. they're the cardinals. bad defense killing the cardinals, maybe killing their playoff chances. that's a double-play ball. >> come on. >> oh! >> that led to a bases loaded

walk. and jose reyes makes them pay. reuben tejada. looks like he might have a chance to catch this one, but he does not. that ties the game at 6, a huge comeback, and two later, two batters later, scored tied, two outs, lenny harris, two run single to right, the cardinals collapse. collapse, in the ninth inning. the hometown fans arest nned, 8-6 mets, in the final with the braves off, cardinals fall two games back in the wild card. tonight st. louis hosts a three-game series against the cubs, braves. >> always makes me so sad when the cardinals collapse. >> i feel bad for chipper. >> the braves go up against the nationals this weekend. >> that'll be exciting. must-read opinion pages are next. but first, our ongoing

commitment with starbucks, we're pleased to recognize another innovator in the classroom. >> "morning joe" and starbucks are proud to celebrate kwand lang. lang is currently the principal of the middle school in philadelphia. principal lang runs a program called the achievement team where he works with core members to provide small group instruction for students who perform below grade level. the partnership between shaw middle school has fueled growth in the city's program despite losing teachers in recent years. principal lang says his biggest challenge is making sure his students return home the same as they arrived, just a little smarter. we applaud kwand lang and all champions for education. ♪

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the network acts as an arm of the internal intelligence agency. with isi support, the operative plans that conducted that truck bomb attack as well as the assault on our embassy. choosing to use violent extremism as an instrument of policy, the government of pakistan and most especially the pakistani army and isi jeopardizes not only the prospect of our strategic partnership, but pakistan's opportunity to be a respected nation with legitimate regional influence. >> mike barnicle, shocking, shocking testimony yesterday. i mean, we all know it, but shocking that it's coming out of the mouth of an administration

official on capitol hill yesterday, telling the truth about the isi. that these people not only are not our friends but have an adversarial relationship with us more times than not. >> the revelation is not stunning in and of itself, but the fact that the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff in open testimony indicates that pakistan, a supposed ally, is actually confronting us at some level as an enemy. >> why do you think the admiral decided to talk about? >> clearly be signaling a shift on this administration's part or continued shift on their part. i think mike's point is most important. the fact that he said this, and you said this this morning before congress, certain lly emboldens and empowers those, but i think it leads to different indications about our world in afghanistan, as well. many have argued that our presence in afghanistan is as much about our concern about

pakistan as any. and indeed, if pakistan has turned, that raises the stakes about the conversation. >> i think you'd make the argument that our war in afghanistan is actually hurting our relationship with pakistan. >> but people have argued -- >> i understand that. i know, i hear that all the time. you ask people, why do you have to stay in a afghanistan another decade? because of pakistan. i think it's hurting. >> when the history of this is written, the day that osama bin laden was found in pakistan will be seen as a seminal moment in the relationship between u.s. and pakistan. >> in the verbs of the capitol. >> right up the street -- >> people wrote rightly at that moment, isn't this the moment when we now need to acknowledge the fact that this supposed ally is not, in fact, a real ally. no real ally would've allowed this guy to hide in plain sight. and i think that, again, when the history is written, people will look back and say like

mullen's testimony today and everything comes forward. that was the moment when it became impossible to maintain the ruse that they were another ally, that we could treat them as we treat other allies because they're not. >> far from it. and at some point, we're going to have to apply some leverage on them. and perhaps even move a lot closer to india. and stop -- stop trying to pl play -- and work with india to undermine their position in the region. >> and pakistan was so embarrassed by that day that john's talking about. now when we talked yesterday about going to north waziristan to chase these guys, pakistan now says no way, there will never be an american boot on the ground. they were humiliated by what happened with osama bin laden and that now hurts our ability to pursue guys in pakistan. >> that's another aspect of mullen's testimony yesterday. read between the lines. it is that the network along the

border that you tell us, you know, no american boots on the ground, sorry. if you don't do it, we are going to do it. >> and by the way, because i -- we do hear this all the time that it's because of the humiliation of the osama bin laden raid, but hey, guess what? we give you $3 billion a year, don't hide our mortal enemy across the street from your west point. and if you do, understand it's not going to end well for you. >> drone activity will not stop. >> yeah. let's go to the must-read op-eds and start with paul krugman of the financial times. republicans claim to be deeply worried by budget deficits. indeed, mr. ryan, it's called the deficit and an threat to america. they're assuming that the wealthy has as much of a stake as everyone else in the nation's future should not be called upon to play any role in warding off

that existential threat. -- be exempted from the social contract that applies to everyone else and that, in case you're wondering, is what real class warfare looks like. then let's go to the "washington post." the return of the real obama. the authentic obama is a leveler. a committed social democrat, a staunch believer in the redistributionist state, a tribune above all of fairness. understood as a government, opposed in government enforced equality. that's why he soaked the rich not just as a campaign slogan to rally the base, it's a mission, vocation, why for all of the cynicism and demagoguery, obama's populist rose garden lecture monday was delivered with obvious and unusual conviction. he's returned to the authenticity of his radical april 2009 new foundation

address at georgetown university that openly proclaimed his intent to fundamentally transform america. what are you laughing about liberal harvard boy? what are you laughing about? upper west sider? >> yes, you know, hash smoking brooklyn hipster. him telling the truth -- is that's what's going on here? >> come on, man. so listen -- >> there's going to be vegetation growing in central park for the next month. >> fair point. look. really? barack obama wants to take the top tax rates on the wealthiest americans back to the levels they were at during the clinton administration. that is what charles krauthammer contends makes him a deep redistributionist who wants to transform american society.

he's talking about putting a couple of points on the upper income tax bracket. it seems they're overblowing to claim this guy -- it's ridiculous. >> right. this idea -- >> it's ridiculous. >> soaking the rich. come on. we've got a decades worth of evidence. >> yeah. >> why do i say that? >> we have a decade's worth of evidence that there is class warfare being conducted in this country. >> there are more in poverty than ever, the wealthiest are wealther than ever. i standby everything charles krauthammer said. we'll be right back. ♪

♪

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oh, yes, is it time? >> yes, it is time, pre-recorded mika brzezinski. top three stories of the week. >> the president must not continue to lead from behind on key issues of national and international security. >> at number three, dead meat. >> it's time to reach for the brass ring of liberty once again. >> in a warm-up for thursday night's debate, republican presidential candidate michele bauchmann campaigned inside an iowa meat locker, inspecting slices of beef, slicing a little rib-eye, and scolding the president of the united states with hanging meat as a backdrop. >> i call on president obama to

stop -- >> bauchmann's staging struck some as odd, but it was a second to sarah palin's infamous thanksgiving turkey grinder. >> at number two, billionaire brawl. a couple of russian tycoons got into a heated television debate this week over the global economic crisis. the champion, a media mogul worth $3 billion. the challenger, a property developer worth a measly $1 billion. billionaires ready, fight. man, what we wouldn't give in this country to watch warren buffett and bill gates slap each other on pay per view. and the number one story of the week -- >> then it's only right that we

ask everyone to pay their fair share. >> president obama presented an economic plan this week whose proposals for taxing the rich did not sit well with republicans. >> class warfare, chris, may make for good politics, but it makes for rotten economics. >> when you pick one area of the economy and say we're going to tax those people because most people are not those people, that's class warfare. >> the president said the other day that tax hikes he's proposing aren't class warfare. he said they're math. we can do math too. >> this is not class warfare, it's math. >> house speaker john boehner put the debate into helpful narcotics terms. >> giving the federal government more money would be like giving a cocaine addict, all right, more cocaine. >> while jon stewart made a plea for tiniest victims of class warfare, bald rich guys. >> will you be an angel for a helpless multimillionaire? thousands more like him live in fear that the top marginal tax

rate will be raised from its current 35% to 39.6%. >> on the foreign policy front, the president spent the week working on middle east peace. rick perry was not impressed. >> naive and arrogant, misguided and dangerous. >> the only thing that would've made perry's critique more powerful was a nice backdrop of dangling meat ce inine ining me. >> i think you'll see a lot more of that in politics. staging the backdrop in the meat locker. >> by the way, good news for everybody because it's been a rough week for people watching it at home. wow, without mika onset, i had to move my chair back from the tv. here she comes. >> the ballet in the south of

france. you're hitting all of the demo groups in northwest florida. >> martin o'malley, we'll be right back. >> all right. ♪♪ [ female announcer ] the road is not exactly a place of intelligence. highway maintenance is underfunded, costing drivers $67 billion a year, and countless tires. which drivers never actually check because they're busy, checking email.

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sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie. [ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business. while i took refuge from the pollen that made me sneeze. but with 24-hour zyrtec®, i get prescription strength relief from my worst allergy symptoms. so lily and i are back on the road again. with zyrtec®, i can love the air®.

the bridge behind us just happens to connect the state that's home to the speaker of the house with -- with the home state of the republican leader

in the senate. now that's just a coincidence. but part of the reason i came here is because mr. boehner and mr. mcconnell, those are the two most powerful republicans in government. they can either kill this jobs bill, or they can help pass this jobs bill. there's no reason for republicans in congress to stand in the way of more construction projects. there's no reason to stand in the way of more jobs. mr. boehner, mr. mcconnell, help us rebuild this bridge. help us rebuild america. help us put construction workers back to work! pass this bill! >> okay. >> i've got to say. >> how can you say he's not engaging? how can you say? >> i can't say that -- >> you're back to "morning joe." i wonder how that first hour went.

joining the table, the chairman of the democratic governor's association, democratic governor of maryland martin o'malley. good to have you onboard this morning. i like that bridge comment. i think there was a lot of symbolism. >> what a great backdrop. >> i would suggest -- that maybe would amp it up a little bit. >> a great visual. >> a great metaphor. >> mcconnell, boehner's home state connecting. >> yeah. >> and the president hasn't been a fighter, but he is this past week and seems like he's taking the gloves off. >> no doubt about it. the question you have is can this bill pass? and then we have a great guest, the governor who has indicated if this bill does pass, the jobs bill will create a lot of jobs in maryland. it'll be interesting to see the president talk more about the number of jobs could create per

state. >> you've got the president of the united states putting a jobs bill out and the chief economist for moody's saying it could create millions of jobs and take the unemployment rate down to 8%, a full percentage point. >> yeah, and i believe mark sandy who has been the gold standard on these kind of projections says, you know, making this argument. there's the -- the president's in a good position right now. and yesterday he used language that, again, a lot of people like to hear from him. he talked about being a warrior for the middle class. and that kind of language, the feistiness of that language has gotten a lot of people feeling like he's turned a corner in terms of how he's going to bring the fight to the republicans. >> speaking of warriors. martin o'malley's here. we're very disturbed about this, we've been waiting for you to come for a long time. what is up with the terrapins' uniform?

>> is that where -- >> the lsd flashback helmets -- >> you didn't like our uniforms? >> they were awful. >> if you're not familiar with their flag, you wouldn't like our uniform. >> no, no, we're not the only ones, governor. >> the suit is very much like -- >> really, that really helps you a lot in -- >> i like their uniforms. our friends did a hell of a job with the uniforms. >> they're a little busy. >> there's no doubt about which team is maryland. >> where was stella mccartney. >> let's talk about the jobs bill. what did it specifically mean to the state of maryland? >> it would be great for the state of maryland. we need to keep working on this. we are by no means out of this recession. and i think it's great that the president's actually fighting and putting forth a proposal. you know, that hasn't happened. the republicans in congress haven't done that. so for maryland, it would be 19,000 jobs, direct jobs in

maryland, and another potentially 90,000. in our state, joe, unlike other states, we have a pretty acute skill shortage. in other words, there are jobs to be filled if only our people can get the skills to fill them. so, i think, you know, the bridges are important. we have structurally deficient bridges in our state just as every state does. america's way behind. you know, we talk a lot about the budget deficit. we have an investment deficit. we need to invest in our bridges, our roads, we need to create private jobs making public goods. the transportation networks, and that too creates jobs and a better future. >> so that really makes a lot of sense. sounds like you're defining what the president is putting forward. and then yesterday in response to the president leaning in and his symbolic piece by the bridge, here is mitch mcconnell. let's start with speaker boehner. >> now is not the time for the president to go in to campaign mode.

earlier this week, the white house said that governing -- the governing phase is behind them. and i think for the sake of american families and small businesses who are struggling, i certainly hope this isn't so. >> president obama may think the best way to distract people from the challenges we face is to stand near a bridge in a swing state and pit one group of americans against the other and hope his critics look bad if he doesn't go along with him. i don't think he's fooling anybody. >> so governor how sad that john boehner is lamenting the fact that the president's gone into campaign mode. >> never seen that before. >> haven't seen it before by the republicans. >> stay out of things like the middle east. >> we have some very serious challenges as a country, i think the president's doing exactly the right thing. i think he's a lot more comfortable in the fight when he's standing up for an

expanding and growing middle class, talking about real things that affect real people. this isn't about swing states, it's about bridges that swing. and we haven't done anything to repair them for years and years and years. >> no, there were opportunities on the tax front, along the way, that isn't it clear he kind of missed a few along the way? and that because he's now leaning in, maybe there are those who might clearly accuse him of being in campaign mode? >> i think the president has never lost sight of the importance of the economy. he did the recovery and reinvestment act. they all said, oh, it's a horrible thing, a bad thing. that recovery and reinvestment act repaired bridges and roads, and also saved us from going into the second great depression. the president has a lot of things that come on his plate. when he wakes up in the morning and they say, hey, we think we found bin laden, he can't say, no, i don't want to deal with that. this is about the method of creating jobs by making the modern investments that a modern

economy requires. you saw the debate last night, the republican debate. these guys -- when do you ever hear them talking about the necessity of making a modern investment so modern economy can create jobs? you don't hear that from their side. they don't have a plan or agenda. >> it seems to me the governor's talking about the stimulus package. the stimulus package and health care reform hangs over everything this president does. there are still a lot of people who don't think the stimulus package worked. and of course, there can be debates. but it seems like those two issues, along with the bailouts have frozen this president, and he may be -- we may be starting to see the thaw now where he will go out and aggressively fight for investment in infrastructure, investment in r & d. i'm talking about rolling up your sleeves and really fighting hard for it. maybe he's starting to do that. >> i believe he is. and identifying specific projects that money should be invested.

the president should be encouraged on two fronts. first, mcconnell and boehner's criticism yesterday was all political. they didn't politically criticize and then offer their own plan or resubmit their own plan, they criticized him, number one. number two, that suggests this plan has resonance with the public. if i was the president, i wouldn't come off the road the next two weeks. each of these areas where he thinks we should be making investments that will translate into strong-paying jobs for americans, he ought to continue to make that case over and over again. the metaphor and scenery and imagery he used yesterday connecting the two states was a great political statement. but he has to continue to go into those areas not only building roads and bridges, but airports, electricity grids, and talk about what that means not only for the creation of jobs and building schools, but what that means to the governor's point to continuing to build an innovation platform like you talked about and mika talked about. >> and john heilemann, health

care reform, which would split people in swing states. people on both sides of that bridge are saying infrastructure, yeah -- listen, as conservative as my voting record was, as conservative as i am, i have yet to find somebody. mika and i give speeches all the time, 400 speeches over the last couple of years, we have yet to hear people, we think we should cut infrastructure while china's doubling down. we think we should cut r & d, education, even conservative americans don't think that way. this is an issue the president could really seize upon, and i think make great political points and pass a bill or two. >> and create some jobs. >> the president has had -- one of the great mysteries of this year -- the president's had public opinion on his side on many of the things that he believes throughout this year. and yet during the debt ceiling debate, even though the public was with him, he was not able to use the public support in order to get what he wanted. and i think one of the things

going on here is that the white house looked at -- they tried to play -- one strategy was we'll be the reasonable man, we'll be in the room, try to compromise, et cetera, et cetera. that was turned out not to be a way to leverage the president's proposals into victory. now they're trying a different approach, and the approach now is we're not going to be the reasonable man, we're going to be the fighter, and we're going to go out on the road and try to rally public opinion in an aggressive, proactive way, and we're going to see if that works and puts republicans in a position where they start to feel the pinch of their voters saying we want these things. we're not just with the president passively, we're with the president actively. >> it may include this unlike it did before. >> yeah. >> and governor, as far as feeling the pinch, i would guess that the fact that mitch mcconnell went on the floor to talk about a presidential press conference in front of a bridge and john boehner felt compelled to do the same thing would

suggest that the pressure tactic's working. >> oh, i think so. i think what's becoming more and more clear with every passing week, every passing month, is that one person here, the president of the united states, is fighting to create jobs, and these other two guys are doing everything they can to keep anything from happening. and that's where it becomes clearer and clearer with every passing week, provided the president stays on this -- >> clearer and clearer to democrats. >> to people generally. >> i think they might be beginning to win with this message. >> if you look around the country, look at the governors being successful, they are successful in kentucky, and successful in west virginia and other states notwithstanding the national frustrations and wins because they stay on jobs, they stay on opportunity, they do everything they can every day, not believing they have a magic wand that knowing that people expect us to do something when they're suffering -- >> just think the first year of the presidency, the obama presidency, he was focused on jobs like a laser? >> i think he was focused on

keeping our economy from totally crashing into the second great depression. >> was he focused on jobs? >> i think he was, but i think in our effort to get the details of health care done, i think we lost track as a party of the broader message, which is we can't have a competitive economy if every month and every year our businesses are shelling out 17%, 20% more for health care instead of reinvesting it in the skills of their people in the modernization of their plants and the competitiveness of their products. >> you were talking about when the history was written about pakistan. i think when the history was written about the last three or four years, which i think you're seeing a real divide between washington and middle america from both sides of pennsylvania avenue. you're going to be looking back going, okay, why did democrats focus so much on health care for two years and then republicans got elected because they weren't focusing on jobs?

and over the next two years, republicans focused too much on the deficit? when americans from day one -- >> that's right. >> wanted the president to focus on jobs. >> and it is amazing -- >> talk about a disconnect. >> it is amazing how deaf both of our political parties can be to what the public is screaming out. i mean, if you looked at polls in the beginning of when obama came into office and people ranked their priorities, health care was sixth or seventh on the list. now, i think universal health care for americans is a moral and political necessity. >> of course you would. of course you would. >> but at that moment, if the public was being very clear about what it wanted. >> like jobs. >> health care was number seven. >> and by the way -- >> jobs was -- >> number one for the last 2 1/2 years. >> to show you how easy this was to figure out, even mike barnicle was saying in february of 2009 the president's top three issues should be -- >> jobs, jobs, jobs -- >> jobs.

and barnicle kept saying that ran talking jobs, jobs, jobs, mcdonnell shocked everybody. both parties have been tone deaf, have they not been the past three years or so? >> what happened? >> you would argue in the democratic governors, anyway, our message has been jobs. >> i'm talking about washington. obviously governors have to worry about real things. i'm talking about washington democrats and washington republicans have not been worried about jobs a as much as governors have. >> between health care reform and job creation and making america's economy more competitive. and i think that was a failure. we can't change the past, we can only change the future. and we do that by taking actions every day in big ways and small to create jobs knowing the most important one's the next one. and the president has not only ample time, but he also has his

opponents he has who are staying with the strategy of obstruction and keeping things from happening. >> what is the business community saying, governor, do for us? >> well, it's never ever one thing. >> the two most important things. >> what they want is a predictable and balanced regulatory future. what they want is workers that have the skills to do the jobs when they come out of our community colleges or they come out of our high schools. what they want is that quality of life, that predictability, that economy that encourages innovation. and lastly, to make an investment knowing that there's a stable and predictable regulatory -- >> but you know he has said the word, predictable over and over. whether you're talking about regulations, taxes, whatever you're talking about. >> everything. >> i have the most conservative business people say to me over the years, listen, if you're going to hit me with taxes, tell

me what my tax -- tell me what my regulatory burden is going to be and i can figure that into a five-year plan. our concern here is, look, i just can't deal with -- >> joe, i hear people saying, you know what? businesses can create jobs, but we need the government to do its job. you need to stop bickering and do your job. >> and tell us what to expect. >> there is still time for your state. there is. now, listen, i can put you in touch with stella mccartney. >> you don't know stella mccartney. >> we can figure it out. >> are we back to the uniforms? >> look! >> it's the only uniform that makes the 1970s houston astros look classy. >> j.r. richards. >> i'll have melissa call you. >> wouldn't that be good? >> he is very confused right now. martin o'malley thank you very much.

>> uniforms designed for people on paote. a showdown at the united nations. forcing a u.s. veto. standing by in the green room, we have the british foreign minister alistair burt. up next, we'll talk to the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory, and eugene robinson. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. coffee doesn't have vitamins... unless you want it to. new splenda® essentials™ no calorie sweetener with b vitamins, the first and only one to help support a healthy metabolism. three smart new ways to sweeten. same great taste. new splenda® essentials™.

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i believe that after ten years of fighting the war on terror, people are ready to bring our troops home from afghanistan, rick. they're ready to bring our troops home. this country -- this country has given its all. >> at the end of the day, folks, only pakistan can save pakistan. only afghanistan can save afghanistan. >> yeah. >> all that i want right now at this point in history for

america to save america. we've got to fix -- >> well, now. joining us now from washington, we have the moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. we also have columnist and associate editor of the "washington post" eugene robinson. gentlemen, good to have you on. david, what's your take away from the debate last night? >> well, you saw santorum and huntsman still kind of the second tier of this debate even though i think huntsman continues to perform well. i think the big issue is perry getting stronger or weaker? how does he fit into the driving force of the tea party and the republican party right now, which is the economy and the president's handling of it? i think romney's still in a better position to make the claim he can seize the energy from the tea party about obama, about the role of government, and also drive an argument of electability.

i mean, if this was the best shot the republicans are going to have, the chance to deny president obama a second term, republican primary voters have to take a hard look at who they think can carry that ball all the way. i think that's what the fight is about between perry and romney. and i think romney looks aggressive, looks strong. he's taking advantage of this challenge early on. >> not to get sidetracked. you're talking about what republicans are looking for. john heileman, you have been talking about it this morning. i haven't heard this kind of buzz around any candidate in a while. but certainly the corridors around here, everybody's still talking about chris christie. that chris christie. i've heard it five or six times from people in different spheres, chris christie is passing up a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to jump into this field because the republicans want him, the field is weak, and the president's weak. >> i was in the austin -- this

week and i was talking to matthew dowd. and he wrote about this on a blog post. he says he still in his gut feels like we're not -- we have not yet seen the man who is going to be inaugurated in 2013, the field is still open. and i think matthew is reading the same thing that a lot of us are reading. i have been saying for months i don't think anybody else is getting in the race. but there are a lot of republicans looking at these guys and still not in love with mitt romney, seeing some of the warts on rick perry, and they still think christie. chris christie. you hear it all the time. it's deafening. >> and as john kennedy said, when you see blue sky, you go to it. it's never going to be more blue for chris christie. he could be a lawyer in trenton, seriously, four years from now. he's got a good shot to be the nominee for republicans. let's go back to something that david said. that's about mitt romney looking strong.

gene, a new hampshire poll, a poll in the gop primary shows something that we haven't seen yet this year. mitt romney pulling way ahead of everybody. you remember the new hampshire poll about a month ago that actually had michele bauchmann up there. mitt romney 41%, leading ron paul by 27 points. mitt romney seems -- and mitt romney getting closer in south carolina. this has been a very good month. rick perry has been very good for mitt romney, hasn't he? >> you know, he actually has been very good for mitt romney. and it's funny considering he was supposed to come in and he was going to be the great republican savior after people weren't that happy with romney. in fact, romney is doing better. and i think it says a lot about, frankly, rick perry's nationwide appeal in a potential general election campaign.

perry -- perry, it's a funny thing. these debates are not great, i think, for rick perry. >> exactly. the understatement of the morning. >> i'm going out on a limb here, joe. if you don't agree with me, you don't have a heart. >> yeah. exactly. >> and debate after debate, i think frankly the plethora of debates is not good for the republican field. i think they need to stop debating and go back and read some books or something. >> it's been very clarifying. sometimes it's not what rick perry says, it's what he doesn't say, how confused he looks staring into the camera or staring into that suitcase, figuring out how to open it up. let's go back to david gregory. david, rick perry, do you agree he may be very good for mitt romney? >> i think he's very good. i don't think there's any question about it. mitt romney had a strategy, which was to basically hunker down and let the perry hurricane as it was described to kind of

ride -- blow over him. he had a very cautious strategy for a number of months, and now he's decided to engage. look, you know, romney's got some people behind him now who are pretty tough political players. and you see that in his own debating style. you see that in the kind of arguments he's employing. not only against president obama, but against his republican brethren. and i go back to something i said before, which is romney's weakness back in 2008 in the early part of the republican debate was that the debate was focused on the surge in iraq. that played to the strategy to his strength. in new hampshire, the issue here is squarely about the economy. when mitt romney says that president obama doesn't have a clue about how to turn this economy around, that is a campaign theme to hang your at on if you are mitt romney. he is not diverted by another issue that is not his strength. at least he can go into that with a singular theme and talk

about an economic agenda and a plan. again, you can debate the substance of that. but he's going in with a head of steam. and rick perry in terms of what his rationale is other than opposing the federal government is getting sidetracked by his own republican opponents on immigration, this vaccine business, and on issues like social security, which is not something he wants to take into this primary fight. >> david, good morning, harold ford. the president, obviously, out on the trail making the case for his jobs bill. what do your sources in washington say? and what does the white house think about much resonance and traction they think the president's message is getting across the country? >> there's the recognition this is a political argument more than a legislative strategy. i think the president started to do something we haven't seen him do before which is go out there and really campaign on this issue in a way i haven't seen him do on other issues. the problem is, there's not a great urgency within his own

caucus on capitol hill to get this legislation passed. so what is the affect on the economy, what is the affect on the unemployment rate? what he's doing is what president clinton talked about. thwarting all of his efforts to try to get the economy moving again. people are still going to make this a referendum on whether he's got the right ideas, whether class warfare is the way to go. and he'll defend that. i don't see this going very far very fast. >> eugene, i'm curious whether you think -- when we saw the president come out with his jobs proposal and new line of rhetoric, a lot of people said, hey, there's no way of getting anything passed. they're in campaign mode, et cetera, i'm beginning to wonder if there's a chance by taking this different tactic, this way of going about this, this actually increases the odds of maybe actually getting something done paradoxically. do you think we are actually

seeing maybe a very -- something that's contrary to what the conventional wisdom was just a week ago in terms of the president's actual objectives here? >> i think you're absolutely right. if he continues on this arc. if we see the kind of public opinion and the -- and the mood continues on the arc that it's now, the president's going to be very effective. what a wonderful kind of metaphor and setting on the bridge that i think resinated with people. and republicans will start to hear, i believe, from constituents that, yes, we don't want our bridges to fall down. we want our infrastructure to be refurbished. that's something you can see, there's a lot of other stuff in the bill too. but basically i do agree that maybe we're at least marginally increasing the chances of washington actually doing something to help the economy. >> yeah, maybe so. and david, there's been a bu buzz -- not only about chris

christie all week, but now the past two weeks, a growing intensity. we had thomas friedman on the show last week talking about independent tickets winning. he's written a book about it. a lot of other people following up on that. and any time you talk about that, mike bloomberg comes to the center of the conversation. >> right. we're going to talk to him on sunday about that, and the economy, of course, benjamin netanyahu, the israeli prime minister, and we'll kick off education nation with a special panel, joe and mika. >> all in a day's work. if it's sunday, it's "meet the press" thank you very much. you can catch gene's column today on washingtonpost.com. >> it's a good column. >> yeah. >> gene's column today with the death penalty probably isn't good enough. gene, great column. >> vintage gene. on the show on monday, we're going to talk to education secretary arnie duncan, also scott walker will join us.

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okay.

is this what it's like for o weekend? welcome back to "morning joe." 37 past the hour. let's take a quick look at the headlines. a developing story on capitol hill where the house passed a bill to keep the government funded through mid-november. however, the republican-authored measure is expected to set up another showdown in the senate that could lead to a government shutdown. will we have the countdown clock? >> it's exciting. >> the bill which passed along party lines in a 219-203 voted increased funding for disaster relief, but cuts money for a loan program to develop energy-efficient cars, also increases cuts to a controversial alternative energy loan program that gave money to troubled solar energy companies. senate democrats who wanted more disaster aid and fewer cuts have vowed to reject the measure leaving open the possibility of a shutdown if no resolution is reached by next friday. >> tell me about this thing, because every time i go on

twitter, conservatives are accusing us of covering up this story. which from what i understand, the president pushed to get money to the -- >> a lot of money. >> a lot of money to them. and they went bankrupt. >> so are we -- just not a story i have focused on. is this a big story? has the white house done anything wrong? >> i think that is the question that's in dispute. the white house -- the white house was obviously in favor of -- in the first stimulus bill, they were putting money into some degree of green energy projects. this was one of the projects that got money. part of the question is whether the white house was in some way improperly fighting for this particular company. >> what does the evidence look like? >> i have not -- i'm like you, i have not drilled down very far. but there are many accusations out there that -- there are many accusations that they behaved inappropriately and should've known in some way that solyndra was in more financial trouble than it was in.

>> the hearing today on capitol hill, and i guess executives -- do you think -- >> no, i think this was the case of -- >> you're not saying that is a supporter of the president? >> you're talking the point. >> i think it's a bad set of facts. i think if you look at where this alternative money went, went for batteries, in the michigan area, where jobs are being created, and this was a bad case. and administration has owned up to it and said, look, we might have missed something here. and the political question is whether or not the white house is trying to rush to get vice president biden there before the company to make a big case. but i don't think there's a there there. >> coming up, british foreign minister joins the set to discuss the austerity measures sweeping across europe. that's next. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] this is the network.

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and still pay the mid-size price. now this...will work. [ male announcer ] just like you, business pro. just like you. go national. go like a pro. rick perry's working his way into the palestinian state hood debate. the republican front-runner for president -- >> equally indignant of the obama administration, and their middle east policy of appeasement that is encouraged such an ominous act of bad faith. >> yes, obama is acting in bad faith. rick perry stands with the jews when he's not dancing with them.

you know -- you know who would love that dance? the crowd at his next christian-only stadium prayer rally. >> my goodness. 44 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." as palestinian officials press ahead with their bid for membership in the united nations later today, some member nations are grappling with how they will vote on the issue. joining us now, british foreign office minister allistair burt. it's very good to have you here this morning on a very busy week. which you describe as a mix between tennis -- >> and speed dating. >> and it works. >> yes, you have about half an hour with each so you build up a relationship, but also the issues between the two. so it's a nice combination. >> yeah. how is that working out for you?

it's good. it's a great week. so many ministers here. we're all here at the same time for those of us worried about taxpayer dollars, this is saving us all trips around the world. all the same people in the same place at the same time, i will do trips i might have made to other countries. and it's a good deal. >> so obviously the united states has been focused on the president being in a position where he's going to have to stand in the way of a resolution on palestinian state hood. what is the british position? >> our principal concern is to make sure that the parties get back to negotiations. we are absolutely with all of those who say this isn't going to be solved by unilateral action. it's going to be solved by negotiations between the two. we were concerned that nothing happened in new york to make that more difficult. what we consistently said on the resolution is that until we see a resolution, we can't say how we're going to vote. because we don't know the elements of the resolution. it seems unlikely we think today that a resolution will be placed.

that won't necessarily mean a resolution. >> so obviously we're also focused on the financial crisis, what's happening in greece and italy and all across europe, it's obviously a lot closer. what is -- what should americans expect out of europe over the next three, six months? >> it's genuinely very frightening. and i don't think i've spoken to anybody in the last few months who has given a clear sense of where we will get out of it. it's the same problem all over the world. it's confidence. we're all still doing the same things. you've got to make things, buy things, and then crisis of confidence affects the whole thing. the euro zone is in difficulty, but we're also connected one way or another. we've got our own program in the united kingdom, we're trying to balance growth with rebalancing our economy. we have the second highest structural deficit in the g-7.

we're trying to address both of those. we've been pleased the oecd is on the right track. it's difficult, our growth is going to be slow and patient and steady. i think we've all got some troubles in the next six months, but we are genuinely all in this together. and we'll find our way out. but it's confidence. >> prime minister cameron instituted cutbacks. in terms of trying to attain the kind of growth, economic growth that was in great britain that would boost morale as well as employment, how difficult is it, do you find it coping with social unrest that is occurring? it's natural that it would occur when cutbacks take place? >> well, i'm not sure any of this social unrest we've seen has been related to the economic program. i think that's a link that i'm not sure people would make. and the program has been easier, partly because we've got two

parties in office. we've got a coalition government. both of the parties have agreed on this economic program. and that's easier to put to people. secondly, the sense people have when the last government left office, our crisis was very big and serious. for every four pounds the government spent, one pound was borrowed. you can't go on like that. and you can't outrun the laws of physics, well, you can't outrun the laws of economics. we put in a package that everybody knew was going to be tough. but we also have five years to do it. the prime minister made it clear that this will run for five years. so you've got a reasonable length of time to put in the hard stuff before the benefits are shown. and we have been persistent and kept at it, and that's why our yields and credit rating has been held as good. we were on a credit warning at the time of the last election in may, but by october last year, that had been eased. but it is tough, there's no doubt, and the people in the united kingdom are facing difficult times, but they know we've got to do this because unless you get your economy

rebalanced, you're in big trouble. >> let me come back to the middle east for a second. >> yeah. >> yesterday after president obama gave his speech, you h had -- two days ago, i should say, you had sarkozy come up and say essentially, you know, i have a different -- i have a different solution here, let's take this to observer status to the full general assembly. but it seemed like a symbolic moment, right? there has been in the middle east for a long time three players. palestinians, israelis, and americans. and a lot of people saw a moment where it seemed like this has not worked. this apartheid way of approaching this. we need more players. it seems like the french were stepping up and trying to take a leadership role. obviously the british have an opportunity. do you think the way at which we are looking at resolving this issue and who is going to orchestrate it, has that fundamentally changed, that we have reached a kind of watershed moment that's going to change how this thing gets dealt with? >> well, president sarkozy can

speak for himself. but i think the sense was the frustration was there. >> the extraordinary thing about the middle east process, everybody broadly knows the parameters of the answer. everybody knows we've got to get to where it is we profess we want to go. that's a two-state solution and a viable palestine. how to get there. what the french were expressing is a frustration. it's ultimately got to come through negotiations. we're clear on that. but the process to stimulate that, if we get through this week at the united nations without what the diplomats call a train crash, without a serious confrontation, that's good, that's one thing. but it's what happens next week and next month that really matters. and we've got to make sure that the intense diplomatic pressure that has been in the last few weeks is carried on to a determination to get the negotiations going. there was a thought-provoking article in the paper this week. >> the "new york times," yeah. >> and that encapsulates

people's sense, maybe we can't go on as we are. something has got to be put into this process that will move it along. but the parameters are clear. israel's security is paramount. and what we want to get is a solution that solves that. we know what the parameters are, but let's keep the pressure on. >> administer alistair burt, thank you very much. thank you for being on the show. >> continued luck with speed dating. >> thank you very much. >> for the united nations. >> i'll let you know how it goes. >> we've heard it described that way. >> you have not seen some of the guys i've been trying to get lucky with. i think we better leave that there. last night's debate and the line of the night. but whose line was it in the first place? willie geist investigates, next. down the hill? man: all right. we were actually thinking, maybe...

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♪ now let's go to the seven on your side news investigation desk. and, of course, "morning joe"'s investigative reporter, wily willie geist. a disturbing investigation, proving once again that things are not always what they seem. >> we are on your side here. governor gary johnson, former governor of the state of new mexico, joined the field last night at the debate. >> great. >> he got off a line that many considered the line of the night. >> wow.

>> perhaps the political line of the year. >> perhaps the political line of the year, talking about president obama's stimulus. let's listen first. >> now, i'm not asking for your jobs plan here. what i'm asking for is how are you going to turn this country around? >> my next-door neighbor's two dogs have created more shovel-ready jobs than this current administration. >> you just made your neighbor's dog very famous. >> i like the cut of his jib. maybe we need to invite this guy to more debates. >> pretty funny stuff. >> my next door neighbor's two dogs have created more shovel-ready jobs in this administration. >> he was weaving, which i found very interesting. >> may he read from the transcrypt of rush limbaugh's

show yesterday? >> what does this have to do -- >> this is from rush limbaugh. >> why rush? >> my dogs created more shovel-already work than obama has just this week alone. stole it from rush. >> no, wait. that was from this morning. >> could be a coincidence. >> that may be a morning thing -- >> rush did it yesterday. he went on to say last night, i guess i've become show prep for the gop debates now, too. >> wow. >> gary johnson says he didn't know -- somebody fed him the line he didn't know. >> with talent on loan from god. that's so bad. >> yeah -- >> how can you plagiarize the line of the year from rush? >> stole it from rush. >> well, rush has got a lot of great lines. i'm just saying. but -- if you're a republican, you want to steal from maybe, like, some obscure source. you're stealing from rush limbaugh. republicans listen to rush

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♪ ♪ everyone everyone everyone everyone ♪ i'm wondering what each one of our candidates would propose to do as president to help insent small businesses like mine to hire new employees and confidently grow our business in this troublesome economic environment. >> what we have done in the state of texas over the course of the last decade is to lower that tax burden on the small businessmen and women. >> having had a job in small business and in big business, i know what to do to make america the most attractive place in the world for business. and that means our corporate tax rates, our employer tax rates,

have to be competitive. small business pays at the highest rate wh. we need to get those rates down to globally competitive levels. >> i think you earned every dollar, you should get to keep every dollar that you earn. that's your money. that's not the government's money. that's the whole point. barack obama seems to think that when we earn money, it belongs to him. and we're lucky just to keep a little bit of it. i don't think that at all. i think when people make money, it's their money. ♪ good morning, it's 8:00 a.m. on the east coast, as you take a live look at new york city. unfortunately, a wet weekend this weekend. back with us, mike barnicle, john heilmann and the great harold ford jr. >> you know, i thought myself, being john heilmann, a fiscal conservative. >> yeah. >> an anti tax guy, never voted for a tax increase in my life. but michele bachmann, she super sizes me.

you should not have to pay any of your money to the government. who knew, that for all those years, governments were paying taxes that we didn't have to do it? >> who knew that michele bachmann could get to the more libertarian right of ron paul? i actually didn't realize that michele bachmann, in fact, is "i" in rant. >> shut the whole thing down. >> so this fox debate last night, and mike barnicle, i've got to say -- man. mitt romney is looking pretty darn good. he is looking pretty darn good. i never thought i would say that. >> he is looking pretty darn good. and on the other side, he's got governor rick "stop me before i debate again" perry. the contrast is startling. >> for mit romney, it was a huge night. each night is bigger and bigger for mitt romney. >> did you guys notice this?

they had so many e-mails. one from my brother who is a big -- i think he likes rick perry. so mitt is looking at him the whole night and he says, well, mitt, you don't understand that when you -- it was really weird. did you see the debate? >> yeah. >> you see how he never made eye contact. rick perry looked uncomfortable as a chimp opening a suitcase, as mike murphy would say. >> by the way, mike murphy had one last night. wow, that last perry bit was painful. it looked like the great rolenda trying to cross the high wire after a three-day meth bender. >> any time you can have a meth joke in connection with rick perry, that's a win. >> there's perry looking at romney. >> when he talks -- he can't talk and look at the same time. >> hes looks forward. i think that's his approach. he makes eye contact with the camera, like he's doing right here. >> he is a good-looking rascal.

so the presidential hopefuls are desending on florida last night, a swing state. let's look at a clip in the debate and get harold ford jr.'s response. >> it's not the first time mitt has been wrong on some issues before. and the bottom line, we never said we were moving this back to the state. >> it's different than what the governor put in his book, just six months ago. there's a rick perry out there that sang that -- almost to quote, it says that the federal government shouldn't be in the pension business. that it's unconstitutional. unconstitutional. and it should be returned to the states. so you better find that rick perry and get him to stop saying that. now -- [ laughter ] >> speaking of books, and talking about being able to have things in your books and back and forth and -- your economic adviser talked about romneycare and it was a bust and was

exactly what obamacare was all about. your hard copy book, you said it was exactly what the american people needed to have that romneycare, given to them, as you had in massachusetts. then in your paperback, you took that line out. so speaking of not getting it straight in your book, sir, that would be a good -- >> governor perry -- governor perry, we were talking about social security, but if you want to talk about health care, i'm happy to do that. >> we are going to have a round -- >> i actually wrote my book, and in my book, i said no such thing. >> isn't that something? now, harold, we brought you in, because little do you know out there, harold is a big supporter of democrats for perry. so you're here to defend rick perry. go. >> look, when the republican debate is about which republican

candidate for president want to defend social security, two things are happening. one, republicans are having a big problem with their frame right now. you've got rick perry who is appealing to their base, as uneven as his performance sometimes is, and as uncomfortable as it may be to watch, he is appealing to one element of the party. two, if you're barack obama and democrats, you have to feel somewhat relieved. because if the president and democrats want to stake this election about entitlements and defending middle class seniors in this country and those struggling into the middle class, the fact that republicans can't agree on social security is a positive thing. no doubt, i would agree with you, mitt romney emerges a winner last night. he emerges a winner for one single reason. he looked presidential more than any of the other people on the stage. and you compare what bachmann's comments -- probably second to him would have been herman cain and newt gingrich. >> newt gingrich has had some pretty good performances. >> but by far romney last night.

>> i think mark is right by santorum. he had a pretty good night last night, too. not that he's ever going to be a republican nominee. >> so romney, a., santorum b. plus. bachmann, c. huntsman, c. cain, c minus. gingrich has done well. >> i thought he did better than a c. >> johnson, too. >> just on the basis of that one line alone, he should have gotten better than a c minus. >> mark has been tough on gingrich for a while. unlike us. we have been straight down the middle. but santorum -- santorum and huntsman had quite a back and forth on afghanistan. and you -- and it was fascinating part for me, mike barnicle. we talk about it all of the time. but you can tell, when you had han huntsman saying bring 'em home, let's stop in afghanistan, you

get a lot of cheers, and then you would have santorum taking the neo side, which is double down, stay there, and you hear cheers on the other side of the hall. sounds like the republican party is pretty split on that issue. >> you also had rick santorum saying something quite miss mystifying to some people, in order to solidify our position there, talk to those exiled from pakistan, living in london. >> and you can call masharaff at 3:00 a.m. i think the only thing he can do is like order you up some tea. >> what about admiral mullen yesterday on pakistan? >> yeah, exactly. >> woo! >> wow. >> that's a huge story. called them to the carpet, basically saying the isi was in cahoots with al kahani, came out saying they were involved. pakistan was involved. >> it's rough stuff.

so do we all agree around the table regarding the debate that -- willie, do you agree last night was a pretty big night for mitt romney? >> for romney. >> and the more debates he can have standing next to rick perry, the closer he comes to taking it all? >> i think rick perry is not getting better through each debate the way you would expect him to. he didn't look like -- he jumps in late, maybe had a rough first debate, figure he reads in on some of the things. i don't think he's getting better with each debate. and i think romney is, actually. romney has also been more loose than he was last time. responding on his feet. he's funny. he's a different candidate than he has been in the past. >> and romney gave an impassioned defense of capitalism when they asked do you think barack obama is a socialist, he didn't answer that, but he started talking about why he believed in american capitalism. and that was the most passionate i've heard romney in a debate. >> i think romney has been throughout all of the debates so far, he has given consistently

good performances and in different ways. at the beginning when he was still the front-runner before perry got into the race, nobody laid a glove on him. he was not being attacked by anybody. he looked presidential, looked big. now he's not the front runner anymore. and he's gotten a little bit feistier and has shined in that -- by contrast with perry. i mean, literally, of all of the candidat candidates, he's the only one who has given -- every single time has given a really solid performance. i think you look at perry, the expectation -- he has not debated a long time. his advisers implicitly and sometimes explicitly admit he is not a great debater. as willie said, every time he doesn't do that well, the expectations mount for him more, because people think, well, certainly now they will, you know, go into deep debate prep mode and he will come out and do much better. and that's what i think hurts him more than anything, which starts to raise questions about with all the expectations focused on him in this way, the fact that he continues to in some ways get worse with each debate, it's starting to raise

the question of why he can't address this problem when all the world is looking at this one issue. the political world. >> there are also troubling moments in the debate where you're looking at perry where it's obvious he's lost. it's obvious he doesn't know what he's talking about. it's obvious that he's confused. and those are not moments that are going to land in a story in the "wall street journal." those are not moments that a lot of people on news shows are going to talk about. because it's not -- it sounds unkind. it's hard to put your arms around. but it's a thing that the american people know when they see it. that the press doesn't report on. and harold, they look at rick perry, and he looks lost. and you're going to start seeing that in polls. i suspect soon. >> and as you know, and people who have been in office have some experience with him, when you are taking off your strongest points -- i mean, he started this race as the front runner, someone who created

jobs, someone who understood how to get the economy going. that was supposed to be his strength. he's now caught up trying to explain social security, trying to explain his position on immigration. and seems to be at odds with half of the republican party or the core of the party on those other two issues. rick perry probably, if given the time, john, could be a good debater. the question is, does he want to be one? and will mitt romney allow him over the next several debates to shine? i think romney, as we shared before, this is the best thing that's happened to romney. he has been forced to in many ways sharpen his game, hone his skills, and come to better be able to defend his positions. and more importantly, where he wants to take the country. >> this is great for mitt romney. >> you know what it gets to, it gets to what i call the viewer voter pattern. people at home watching the debate with their clicker in their hand, looking for a ball game, go back and forth, and perry does not look great in those little snippet viewer

voter moments. romney, cosmetically, looks presidential. perry does not. >> here's the other thing. just to go to one thing harold said. perry came into this race, his economic strength on the record in had texas gave him advantages. but now you're starting to see he's being asked, what is your vision for the economy, how to fix the american economy? and all he says is, well, look at texas. we lowered taxes in texas. well, compared to mitt romney, and say what you will about the subs tan of it, mitt romney's 59-point economic plan which sounds again, like i'm a serious person who has thought hard about how to fix the nation's economy, i'm not just saying, oh, look at my record in massachusetts. he says, here's a prospective plan. the contrast i think is striking and perry is going to not just say look at texas. he needs to come up with an actual economic plan. >> perry has a hard time -- his economy is built on oil and gas and energy. he is having a hard time defining what he did and how you transform -- taking that economy and put on top of -- i may not

agree with him, but it would be interesting to hear him talk that way. >> saying look at texas is not enough. >> the thing is, rick perry didn't do that. texas did that. >> but, joe, he can't even talk about it. >> i know. i understand. i mean, he should figure out a way to do it. but maybe the bigger problem is that texas is texas. i mean, it's doing great. job growth under george w. bush was great. >> and richards. >> job growth under ann richards was higher than it was under rick perry. i mean, texas is texas. it is the great republic of texas. and they don't need a governor telling them how to bring jobs to that state. >> it's a right to work state. it's got a huge supply of low-cost labor, because of the -- because of the population, the immigrant population. those are huge advantages that have nothing to do with policy. they are just built into texas. that's fair.

>> i think it's fascinating also, willie, that here you have the guy that is the conservative candidate, but every time we get into one of these debates, he's getting it from both sides. he's getting it because he's reckless on social security. of but he's also getting it on immigration. on forced immunization of teenage girls. all of these issues that make him -- make him the target from the left and the right. >> rick santorum went after him really hard on immigration last night. we saw last debate, even ron paul hitting him on taxes saying -- by the way, ron paul says he hasn't been so great for the state of texas. i'm from the state of texas. so he's getting it from both sides. and to your point about just putting out an argument, it's the same thing with social security. he says it's unconstitutional, wants to send it back to the states. that's all fine, but he needs to explain how exactly he would do that. >> coming up next, the story of how the united states, iran and saudi arabia changed the balance of power in the middle east. we're going to be talking to the author of the new book, "the oil kings." also, world markets get whipped

over fears of a global recession. we're going to go live to the new york stock exchange and see if wall street can pull out of this nose dive. but first, willie's week in review. actually. >> that's not true. that's going to come after we scare the hell out of you. but first, before all that, we get the weekend forecast with meteorologist ryan phillips. ryan, tell me something good. >> hmmm. joe, how about this? the jets are playing in oakland sunday. so therefore, that game won't be washed out. but the rest of the games this weekend, it's going to be a rough go. rain showers moving up the east coast. we've got flight delays already in place in philly, and i think more to come. showers are on the move. cloudy skies out there. some fog around from hartford down to new york and philly. a wet weather freeway day, unfortunately. stim humid, temperatures into the 70s. the east coast west, west coast hot and dry. that's today. more of the same tomorrow. washington, 78. 76 in new york. it's an umbrella weekend here in the mid atlantic.

so do what you can to stay dry. all right, that's your forecast this morning on "morning joe." stick around. more to come after the break. capital one's new cash rewards card gives you a 50% annual bonus! so you earn 50% more cash. according to research, everybody likes more cash. well, almost everybody... ♪ would you like 50% more cash? no! but it's more money. [ male announcer ] the new capital one cash rewards card. the card for people who want 50% more cash. what's in your wallet? woah! [ giggles ] woah! yesterday doesn't win. big doesn't win. titles corner offices

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♪ why don't you start singing loudly? yeah. it's like, honestly, having a 6-year-old boy. no, heilmann -- >> you're so mean. >> you're very in your own world, let's just say.

anyhow, so we named the rabbit bunny solder. joining us now, andrew scott cooper, author of "the oil kings" how the u.s., iran and saudi arabia changed the balance of power in the middle east. and you say the book has got the goods. >> the book has got the goods. it's got the goods on all of the back-room deals between nixon, kissinger fo kissinger, ford and the saudis. this is 35 years ago this month, the ford administration initiated a secret plan to break opec from the inside with the help of the saudis. and that was because they were afraid there was going to be a financial crisis on wall street. >> and some of the back-room deals that perhaps we haven't heard about before, what angle do you take and what access do you have to the information? >> i use declassified documents from the ford administration era, particularly the papers of general scocroft. >> really? >> yeah, interviewed him,

secretary of defense. and this is a time when the officials are ready to talk about what happened 35 years ago. so we are looking at two efforts to influence presidential elections, 1972 with nixon. 1976 with ford by deshar played a role in trying to help republican candidates. we're looking at -- especially manipulating oil prices to help the u.s. economy stave off a double dip recession in the fall of 1976. and we have had a situation 35 years ago where bank of america, citibank, chase manhattan and morgan were in danger of debt default contagion coming in from southern europe. portugal, greece, spain and italy. >> are we talking today or -- >> '76. >> what year are we in? >> 1976. >> i got confused. >> yeah. >> and if you throw in the

iranian nuclear angle, too, we have this fascinating -- we have some interesting parallels. >> it's kind of incredible, you know, a lot of the people -- characters you're writing about on the american side, president nixon, president ford, henry kissinger, they wrote memoirs, many have written multiple memoirs, and most of the events that you're covering here are completely absent from those memoirs. and these are pretty seminole events in history. >> nixon mentions it twice in his memoir, ford doesn't mention it at all. half the book is on ford and the shar. i think these books were regarded as explosive. had it come out in 1976 that ford approached the shar to keep oil prices down until the '76 election was out of the way, you can imagine the backlash. >> you know, the old phrase, "follow the money" is so true. especially at an international

level. back then, 1976, gas prices, oil prices, exploding. iran, lower your prices. no, we can't lower the prices. so, you know, saudi arabia, turn on the spigot. >> that's right. and flood the market. >> yeah. >> and then that leads to this scenario in 1977 where iran's economy is destabilized, because they have been counting on those billions of dollars in oil revenues, because he is facing his own financial crisis at home. so the people inherit the situation where they are not being told that the iranian regime is not as strong as it appears to be. the iranian economy is destabilized. and -- but then when you bring in the southern european connection, it's quite fascinating. >> you see that -- you touched on some parallels to today, and say there are more. are there lessons that can be drawn, as well? >> the lesson for policy makers is that when you're working with an issue over here, say you're

working with the banks, you have to understand that what you do here is going to have an impact over here in the geo politics. and vice versa. i mean, there has to be some kind of blending of the two. and i think at this point in the mid '70s is a pivotal period, because with the oil shark, this is a time when the u.s. is forced to develop a foreign economic policy. and there was this split between kissinger on the one hand and treasury led by bill simon on the other over how to deal with it, never got the differences bridged and that led to breaking opec. the saudis found out there was a u.s.-iranian contingency plan to go into saudi arabia if there was a crisis in the gulf. >> you know what's amazing? president carter, despite the weaknesses of his administration, the one thing he did do is issue a strong call to wean us off middle east oil. that's -- in the late 1970s. had we heeded maybe 30% of his

advice, we would be in a far better position today than we are. and it's all laid out right here in this book. >> i predict that carter will be rehabilitated in the next few years. because of that -- that's one reason. it's -- you're exactly right. he tried to talk to the american people, and he gave that speech. and people called it the malaise speech. and he was attacked in the press. the press just killed him. >> do you think that 20 years from now or 30 years from now someone will be writing this same book about our relationship with the saudis? about the way that the bushes and clinton and obama were dealing in a similar way with the saudis? because they have taken the place in terms of politics, right? >> that's right. they now have the swing power. they're trying to -- right now, they're trying to flood the market to help the obama administration, because they need to relieve the high -- the pressure on financial networks. but the same time, you have to also remember, the saudis will do anything they can to

destabilize iran and the iranian regime. look, i mean, back in 1976, during the transition, this is how the -- this is the sort of stuff coming out now. i interviewed iran's former ambassador to washington, and i said what did you tell the incoming carter team about the problems that were going on in iran? what did you -- were you aware that kissinger passed on all of this intelligence about threats to american citizens living in iran? and he said, kissinger told him that he was not going to turn over his iran files to the incoming administration. and he was going to send them up to nelson rockefeller's estate. when you read this book, you'll understand why. because of the deals. >> wow. >> and there's more. so the carter people come in, and they really are inheriting. it's like being handed a briefcase with a bomb in it. and then, of course, it goes off on their watch. >> so the hostage crisis. >> the hostage crisis.

they received explicit warnings in july of 1975, there is going to be a serious incident concerning american citizens living in iran. the embassy was seized in november of '79. >> sort of like the memo to president bush. >> that's right. and in this case, you know, it went right up to kissinger. and we also know that in september '75, defense secretary was so concerned, he actually went into prison in the oval office while kissinger was out of town in saudi arabia. and he says to ford, we have a problem developing in iran and it's time for us to reassess our policy. we have banked everything on the shah, but iran is not looking strong and stable. and we have too many people pouring in, and we're overloading iran's economy with manpower material. so, you know, it's tragic. >> any heroes in this book? >> shlesinger is a hero, i

think. when we were talking, he said to me he was trying to avoid another vietnam. >> the book is "the oil kings." andrew scott cooper, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. that looks fascinating. >> you've got to read this book -- daniel urgin wrote a great book. you've got to read this book. it sounds like alongside that, they'll be book ends on this story. >> thank you. up next, some say a recession is a perfect time to start a business. the founders of the $100 million eco cleaning brand method join us next with their take on small businesses surviving the economy. next on "morning joe." >> so, ah, your seat good? got the mirrors all adjusted? you can see everything ok? just stay off the freeways, all right? i don't want you going out on those yet. and leave your phone in your purse, i don't want you texting. >> daddy... ok! ok, here you go.

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♪ 34 past the hour. ten years ago, eric ryan and adam lowry had an idea to change the cleaning industry. they started their business, method, with $100,000. $100,000? and they've turned method into a multimillion-dollar company. now, as some would-be entrepreneurs look to launch businesses through tough economic times, eric and adam are out with a new book, "the method method." seven obsessions that helped our scrappy start-upturn into the

industry upside down. eric and ryan join us now. well, i -- >> look at this stuff. >> i know. don't be a commercial, barnicle. >> it's beautiful. it's beautiful! >> no. >> keep talking. >> it's pretty. it is. i'm going to bring some home. because i like free stuff. >> first of all, before we get into the product, a great story. welcome to you both, first of all. childhood buddies, started this company that's blown up -- >> they're still children. how old are you? >> yeah, how old are you, anyway? >> you first. >> i should probably lie. 38. >> okay. >> i'm 37. >> okay. so how did it start? the idea? >> well, we grew up in the trade area together, and we ended up in roommates in san francisco. this is not the martha stewart story. we are living in a very dirty flat with five other guys and came from two very different backgrounds. we saw an opportunity to go in and disrupt a big industry by bringing a lot of our personal passions into it. >> how did you do that, though? that's a daunltsing challenge, diving into an industry with companies that have been there for decades. >> well, naivete is a wonderful

thing. we were young then, and we just decided, hey, we have an idea here. we're going to pursue it and see what happens. and, you know, i come from a background that's more technical in environmental science, chemical engineering, he comes from more of a marketing background. >> i make it pretty, he makes it work. >> yeah. >> go ahead, mike. we were joking, but it is pretty and it jumps off the shelf. >> and obviously, when you do your shopping or whatever, you see stuff like this, your eye is attracted to it. but who gave you your first big break, getting this stuff into the market? >> so it's kind of the classic entrepreneur story. the first thing is getting proof of concept. ask literally we went door to door to every independent grocery store in the san francisco bay area, tracked down the manager at 6:00 a.m., keep showing up until they put it in the store. you prove it works and we scaled it up to regional grocery stores. but our big break is something we talked about, getting target, and getting them behind this brand to support us. >> which one of you is french? >> neither of us. but we do sell our products in france and in canada. so --

>> you have to put it in french if you sell in canada. >> i thought maybe that was a marketing thing. >> this is laundry detergent. >> this is starting to sound like an infomercial, but our house is full of method stuff. what's the -- so what's the philosophy? what's different about yours than all of the other stuff on the market? >> the philosophy of method is very much a reflection of eric and i. i used to be a climate scientist, i've worked on environmental issues my whole career. eric is a brilliant brand marketer, and knows kind of the soul and essence of brands. and so i wanted to use business as a way to create some positive change in the world. and, you know, working with eric, we're able to do that in a way that appeals to a very broad audience, not just this sort of greenees that products that are green typically appeal to. >> we talk every morning for three hours, eric, on this show about the economy, getting people back to work. what's working, what's not working. what does it look like to you as a small business owner?

what do you need to happen over the next couple months? >> it's a really exciting time. look, we sell a premium brand in a category. so consumer confidence for us is really, really key. but we started this business in a recession and quite honestly, like, we actually kind of enjoyed the recession, because it's -- it really gives you an opportunity to take advantage of it. and do things differently. and it's an opportunity for people to rethink everything. >> how do you take advantage of it? >> yeah. >> how you take advantage of it -- >> interesting comment. >> focus. >> innovate. >> innovate. so that laundry detergent, which not to keep this as an info commercial, but -- >> why the heck not? >> we're incredibly proud of it. we developed this in the recession, going into the laundry category arguably is the most competitive, aggressive consumer space. so we put our heads down and came up with the most innovative thing we have done in the last -- >> wait a minute, that's 50 loads? that's what's new and that's what's interesting. you buy laundry and it's the

heaviest thing. and this makes a lot of sense environmentally, as well. >> yeah, this is the same number of loads as that big jug that people normally buy. >> i would pour the whole thing in, though, that's the problem. >> this is pretty balanced. we have laundry products, cleaning products and hand care products and it's kind of, you know, a balance across all three. we have some fragrances that are really popular, like some of the ones in front of you, but -- you would be surprised. >> and you designed -- >> we did the design in-house. i don't do the design myself. we have much mortalented designers, but we do it in-house. >> we're going to clip this, by the way, and run it at 3:00 a.m. as an infomercial. just run it on repeat. >> we want a 10% cut on that. >> you it very much. it's a great product. >> eric ryan, adam lowry thank you very much. the book is "the method method." turning an industry upside down. you know what, maybe you can now think about what you guys should do when you grow up. and you can see more with eric and adam in the mojo -- oh, no.

>> did he put his picture on again? >> i'm sorry, you guys. you have to talk to lewis. >> he branded it with his name and picture. >> lewis is going to have a hard time doing this interview, because he likes to look in the mirror and he'll probably want to use the products, the hand creams. but do your best. go to the green room, it's joe.msnbc.com. right after the show. there is louis getting his hair done. with behind the scenes interviews with "morning joe" guests. up next, just how bad are the market futures following yesterday's plunge? business before the bell with simon hobbs, next. ♪ [ dr. ling ] i need to get the results from the m.r.i.

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for more information or help paying for pradaxa, visit pradaxa.com. it's real milk full of calcium and vitamin d. and tastes simply delicious. for those of us with lactose intolerance... lactaid® milk. the original 100% lactose-free milk. ♪ the x factor is on again tonight. the debate was on fox news while

the x factor was on fox. so to try to get some crossover audience, i guess, tonight on "the x factor" they had a special guest judge. ♪ >> let me start here, nicole. you have a horrible voice. >> are you kidding me? >> i have to say no. >> no, no, no. >> paula? >> no. >> no. >> you will face the ultimate justice. you will be executed. >> very harsh. i guess that's what the x stands for, execution. >> that's awful. wow. >> harsh. >> 44 past the hour. time now to get a check on business before the bell. you okay, heilmann? >> i'm recovering. >> why don't you sneeze again? >> yeah, oliver barnicle. seriously. what's the difference between sitting next to john heilmann and any of your hoodlums, your filthy boys? >> whoa! >> he's taller.

>> exactly. >> his boys used only about a fifth as much profanity as i do. >> exactly. >> that's true. unfortunately. >> seriously -- >> they're relatively respectful. >> let's put it this way. you know he's there, don't you? >> always. >> sitting next to you. fidgeting and loud and just in his own, you know -- >> talking over everyone. >> talking over everyone. >> just a know it all. >> and loud. yeah. >> we're talking as though he's not sitting there. >> you know, i can hear you. i can hear you guys. i can hear everything you're saying. >> okay. just try that. >> ooh. >> we invite you on the show. to speak. >> this is all because i sneezed. >> no, no, you sneezed -- >> on the air? >> an an unruly fashion. we have a guest sitting here getting ready, nervous about going on and you're singing out loud to your ipad. >> you know who is unfailingly polite? >> who? >> simon hobbs. >> let's go to simon hobbs. i'm just helping him.

we're having an intervention. simon, tell us what's going on. >> well, you know, this is not a day for many people to be polite down here at the new york stock exchan exchange. i'm watching the futures deteriorating again. it's more than that, though. because gold is down, oil is down. so it's another -- it may be another day shaping up where basically people sell everything and that's what we had yesterday. only treasuries in the u.s. dollar actually erosion yesterday. so the markets lost 6% in two days. if we open where the futures are indicated at the moment, we'll break below the august 10 lows. it's a bit technical, but basically means we could have substantial down side opening up. the basic problem for this or the basic reason for this, you know, the fed came through and said we think there is significant down side risk to the economy. in fed speak, that means we think there might be a recession. but what they're doing about it, the market doesn't believe there will be enough to reverse that possibility. there is complete inaction on the crises in europe, be that the banking crisis or the sovereign debt crisis. and you've got a slow down in

china. so you've got this perfect storm coming through and the stock market continues. and all assets continue, guys, to be under huge pressure. >> my gosh. simon hobbs, thank you very much. >> and happy weekend. >> yeah. >> wow. >> mike has an evil laugh. >> simon, maybe the president of poland shouldn't ring the opening bell on the stock exchange. >> maybe in the afternoon, the end of the day, toward the end of the market day when they have the day's biggest losers, they should just have us as a country. >> well -- >> i thought you were talking about us like right here at this table. >> i know you, but -- >> yeah, exactly. willie's week in review is next. >> wow. man! ♪ [ male announcer ] you are a business pro. your core competency is...competency. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle...and go.

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♪ if you like large, hanging sides of beef, you're in for a real treat with our top three stories of the week. >> the president must not continue to lead from behind on key issues. >> at number three, dead meat. >> it's time to reach for the brass ring of liberty. >> in a warmup for thursday night's debate, republican presidential candidate michele bachmann campaigned rocky-style inside an iowa meat locker. inspecting sides of beef, slicing a little rib eye, and scolding the president of the united states with hanging meat

as a backdrop. >> i call upon president obama to stop ahmadinejad from coming to the united nations. >> bachmann's staging struck some as odd, but it still was a distant second to sarah palin's infamous thanksgiving turkey grinder. at number two, billionaire brawl. a couple of russian tycoons got into a heated television debate this week over the global economic crisis. the champion, a media mogul worth $3 billion. the challenger, a property developer worth a measly $1 billion. billionaires ready? fight! man, what we wouldn't give in this country to watch billionaires warren buffett and bill gates skin it off and slap each other around on pay per view. >> am i ready to take my shirt

off? >> not yet. and the number-one story of the week. >> and it's only right that we ask everyone to pay their fair share. >> president obama presented an economic plan this week, whose proposals for taxing the rich did not sit well with republicans. >> he was into redistributing wealth, and that is part of that class warfare. >> class warfare. >> class warfare. >> that's class warfare. >> this is not class warfare. it's math. >> house speaker john boehner put the debate into helpful, narcotic terms. >> giving the federal government more money would be like giving a cocaine addict, all right, more cocaine. >> while jon stewart made a plea for the tiniest victims of class warfare, bald rich guys. >> thousands more like him live in fear that the top marginal tax rate will be raised from its current 35% to 39.6%. on the foreign policy front, the president spent the week working on middle east peace.

rick perry was not impressed. >> naive and arrogant, misguided, and dangerous. >> the only thing that would have made perry's critique more powerful, a nice back drop of dangling animal carcasses. >> the appeasement of deadly dictators is never wise and never an effective strategy. [ mooing ] >> you're going to see a lot more of that in politics. coming up next, what, if anything, did we learn today? [ kimberly ] when i was 19, i found myself alone

with two children and no way to support them. i put myself through nursing school, and then i decided to go get a doctorate degree. university of phoenix gave me the knowledge to make a difference in people's lives. my name is dr. kimberly horton.

i manage a network of over a thousand nurses, and i am a phoenix. [ male announcer ] university of phoenix is proud to sponsor education nation. because we believe an educated world is a better world. sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie. [ male announcer ] marriott hotels & resorts knows it's better for xerox to automate their global invoice process so they can focus on serving their customers. with xerox, you're ready for real business. i have to be a tree in the school play. good. you like trees. well, i like climbing them, but i've never been one. good point. ( captain ) this is your captain speaking. annie gets to be the princess. oh... but she has to kiss a boy. and he's dressed up like a big green frog !

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this is why we engineered a car that makes 2,000 decisions every second. the new audi a6 is here. the road is now an intelligent place. ♪ whatever. welcome back to "morning joe." it's time to talk about what we learned today. >> i learned that whether he will admit it or not, gary johnson delivered what he thought was the line of the night. stole his material from rush limbaugh. >> oh. >> what are you going to do? he was very proud of himself, reading rush's joke. what did you learn, john? >> i just learned that there are times when i realize just what a black heart mika brzezinski sometimes has. is there a lot of anger. it makes me feel so bad. >> let's make sure we don't have him on again.

>> o stop that. >> what did you learn? >> an incredible evening at the lincoln center last night. we went to the ballet, ocean's kingdom. it was incredible. and the music, wow. >> the music was great. there's paul. and two pauls left, two over, is stella mccartney, who did all of the outfits and, of course, a pretty darn good career in their own right. and we are now hoping that stella will work next on theter ter terrapins uniform. and you saw nick lowe. very nice show out under the stars. >> and will be on the show next week. >> fantastic. if it's way too early, what time is it? >> it's "morning joe." have a great weekend. we'll see you monday. stick around right now for "the daily rundown" with our man, chuck todd. blach well, the third heated republican debate in 15