>> rick perry is in trouble. number ten, lost support from both whack jobs and nut jobs. number nine. it mostly goes with that's what she said. downgraded from campaign bust to cheaper campaign scooter. too mittie for newt supporters and too newty for mittt supporters. his new slogan, "come on!" advisers are thinking of replacing him with luke perry. that's where i got that. number four just went hiking on the border of iraq and iran. number three even his wife is wearing a herman cain button. number two, instead of freedom of liberty his cowboy boots now read ifs and over. >> good morning. it's tuesday, september 27th. with us onset msnbc and "time"

magazine senior political analyst mark ailpershalpern. also john heilman. a lot to talk about. a grim day here. mika? >> yeah, very. >> very grim. >> awful. >> around these parts. heilman knows what i'm talking about. yesterday. >> yeah, yeah. >> willie, the -- >> what's going on? >> oh, this is arch west. >> arch west slipped the surly bonds of earth. >> i hate to tell you this. >> well, he touched td face of god. >> he actually died a week ago. >> okay. we learned yesterday. >> we learned yesterday. >> this guy, seriously. >> play along. >> the thing is, willie, if patrick moynihan were here today you know what he would say. he would say, you know, we may laugh again, willie geist, but with the passing of the founder

of the doritos, we'll never be young again. it's over. >> irony might be dead. is it possible? >> exactly. >> doritos live on. cool ranch rocks the house. >> do you agree? >> oh, yes. willie and i have advanced degrees in nutrition. if you get your classic food pyramid, like back in the 1960s you would actually have doritos right below the top. >> i think that was actually probably the beginning of the downfall of the -- >> come on. he's passed away. why don't you just spit on arch west's grave? >> i'm not. look. >> this is so sacrilegeous. >> they're addictive. that's the idea. of course they're addictive. >> he's a pringles man.

>> i love pringles, too. >> remembering arch west. also, john heilman, another burial, unfortunately, yesterday. last night late. the red sox season is over. >> it's not over. >> it's over. i was so confident that when they were ahead, 1-0, i thought, you know -- >> don't read my tweets. >> why? >> i was so positive. >> you were very positive. >> said i'm an idiot but i still believe. >> at 9:00 p.m. he sends me a text message. he says hell of a game. beckett is on the hill. season hanging in the balance. within 15 mints the whole thing was over. >> all right. can we talk about politics now? >> no. >> from doritos to -- >> it's over. >> it's not over. >> they can't beat the baltimore orioles. >> as we say in boston don't be a quitter. here's what you have to do. put the last month out of your mind and just say, we have two games left in which we have to beat one of the worst teams in

baseball. we can do it. >> it is a two-game season. >> are the orioles going to be it? >> are we going to be 0-2 in this season? >> i went to yankee stadium on saturday and half way through the game i turned to my wife and said we might not win another game this season. this is the most pa thetic, disgusting, sad -- just the behavior of the team is so appalling. i thought, we could go to the next -- luckily they won on sunday night but they were just playing heartless, gutless. terrible baseball. >> that is the most disappointing thing. there was a very sage observer who noticed that sunday game that lackey went out and pitched five warmup pitches. and the only people on the field were agon and -- >> i was sitting next to that

observer. >> that means they have lost hard. they're paid way too much money to be phoning it in this way. they're heartless. >> throughout this entire slide there has never been a story about the big club house meeting where everyone has tried to pull it together and said, we must right the ship. no one stepped forward. no one leader has taken the team, you know, by the -- >> what are you talking about? >> the red sox. >> sounded like something else. >> obviously fran kohn is gone. you don't manage this much talent. is that right, willie? you don't manage this much talent. >> what if they win the last two games? >> he is gone without a doubt. >> without a doubt he has the best hitting lineup in baseball. no doubt about it. with ortiz having the season of his life, ellsbury, gonzalez having an incredible season. pedroya is just out of his mind. he has extraordinary talent, willie, does he not? any manager would kill for this talent and he's got guys

falling -- gonzalez tries, but a lot of loafers. >> i was there sunday night too. body language. you watch guys coming off the field. >> terrible. >> they're not up on the rail. all the yankees are up on the rail. nothing to play for. invested in the game. very strange. >> we're going to go to news now because unlike the last two guys where you guys pratt led on for eight minutes before we got to anything of substance i'm going to stop at six. >> it's homage to cold pizza. >> kicking us while we're down. >> stepping on our doritos. >> some people need to get on with their day and maybe want to know what's going on. >> why don't you stop preaching and start talking. >> do you know what cold pizza is? >> what is that? >> great reference. >> that didn't go the way they thought it was. that just didn't work out. >> still on the air under a different name. >> is it really? the morning show that --

>> everybody watches espn. it's called first take now. doesn't matter. they anything on the air and people turn on espn. >> if mika is not going to get to the news i am. a recent debate and straw poll performances aside a few polls out, mika -- >> why don't i do it? texas governor rick perry -- >> is in trouble. big trouble. >> actually he remains the top of the gop field according to the latest cnn poll. perry takes 30% of the vote in a republican primary with mitt romney eight points behind at 22%. the front runners are followed by newt gingrich and herman cain. michele bachmann continues to see her numbers dwindle gaining just 6%. however, according to the poll romney still fares better than perry in a head-to-head matchup with president obama but trails 49% to 48% among registered voters. perry received only 36% support against the president. also in cnn's poll, 46% of americans agree with romney on the issues versus 39% for perry.

46% for romney is 10 points higher than the number who agreed with romney in his 2008 white house run. herman cain. what do we make of this? still riding high from his straw poll victory joined the wave of criticism against the texas governor during an interview on fox news yesterday. >> with all due respect it was not up to primetime. his performance wasn't even on par with anybody on that stage. not in terms of the issues per se but in just debate delivery. >> so of course if these polls had shown rick perry had fallen below metastasis i would have been paying much more attention. as it is i have to say the polls remind me of the polls that said guiliani was going to win four years ago. see how nimble i am. >> guiliani was very well known, a national figure. rick perry, people are cactus league off something else.

>> it's not good. >> well, i mean, if he were -- if he collapsed in the polls after the debate, it's possible that insiders are paying a lot more attention to these debates. >> what about money people? again, i am dead serious here. we have a general snapshot of america. what obviously matters are iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, and the people that are writing big checks right now. >> yes. >> and you -- both of you guys i would guess have heard no good news coming out of that group regarding rick perry over the past weekend. >> certainly in this city he has not won over as many people as they'd have liked and as he would have with a stronger performance but they seem confident that both in the campaign and in the super pack they'll have enough money there for him to be competitive financially. >> what do you think, john? >> they do seem confident in perry in the perry world and i think they may be able to raise that money. there is no doubt there as clamor in a loft the republican donor class in this city and other cities for chris christie.

it is deafening. the sound of the -- there is a -- rick perry's problem right now is both a grass roots problem to some extent because people are worried in terms of some of his answers on certain questions but there is a problem in the donor class. it's a problem mitt romney has also in the donor class. you would think at this moment with perry stumbling that romney, who should be a perfectly acceptable candidate, what you have instead is this loud screeching for christie. not just for an alternative but for christie in particular. it is deafening around both the republican and some moderate democrat donor types who really want nothing more than chris christie to get in this race. >> i have to say, last week we talked about it on air for a minute but it was really stunning walking just outside the hall. we have the guests that come in and occasionally mika will go out to have a smoke and a quick shot so we're walking out there and she is, her third pack, and

i won't mention their names, but people were down the middle. just everybody around here is talking about chris christie. jumping in the race. this is his time. >> i feel bad for him. i wish they would leave him alone. >> if he doesn't do it now he is loving it. if he doesn't do it now his political career -- which by the way, i agree. as john kennedy said, when you see blue sky you go for it. if chris christie doesn't run this time there is going to be no -- >> i was at a gathering in colorado over the weekend, up at west point at a different gathering last night. people across the spectrum, not just political activists but people sort of casually interested in the campaign are buzzing about chris christie. >> what do you have, mika? >> well a couple things. former new jersey governor tom cain says his long-time friend is, quote, seriously considering a run for the white house. christie will give a closely watched speech at the ronald reagan presidential library

today entitled real american exceptionalism. that definitely sounds like someone who is dabbling. that's for sure. >> and the former governor certainly doesn't shoot his mouth off. >> no. he knows christie well. >> one of the real grownups in american politics. >> it seems to me if you're rejecting every time the news comes up, i'm not ready for it, not running. i don't know how many times to say it. the only way i can run you guys off is if i commit suicide. he once said. i'm not running for president. then you go to the ronald reagan presidential library and make a speech about american exceptionalism in the middle of all that buzz? you're not exactly turning the buzz off. >> he is playing the game, no doubt. he is showing a little leg. and then saying, oh, please. stop looking at me that way. >> i disagree with that. >> come on. he is going to the reagan library. you don't understand. >> doesn't new jersey border

canada? >> no. this guy is being -- don't you think it's fair to say, joe, that the republican field is so bad that he is being hounded and gobs of money are being thrown at him and that he is being -- people are falling on their knees and begging him to run for president. >> so? >> and the fact that he could go on the air with diane sawyer and say i'm not ready and still have all these doors opening, i don't think this is a guy showing a little leg hoping people will look. i think he's got all these eyeballs on him because there is no one else. >> first of all, mitt romney would beat barack obama today if the election were held today. i would bet my house on that fact. it wouldn't in fact be close. if the election were held today. it's not going to be held today. to say there is nobody in the race i don't think is fair to

mitt romney and maybe one or two others. one thing was said yesterday, i forget who said it but it was a great insight. that is if i'm chris christie, i look at what happened to rick perry. and i know if we want to continue this analogy it's always, the girl is always a lot more exciting to imagine dating than actually dating. and rick perry was going to be the savior of the republican party. he came in and got torn to shreds. chris christie has to know that weights for him. >> potentially he has a different skill set than rick perry and wouldn't have the exact same prosecution. if this were a three way race on equal footing perry and christie and romney, equal time and money in iowa, new hampshire, etcetera i think perry would have a good chance given the mood of the electorate. he wouldn't enter on equal footing but you can also look at the rick perry experience and say this guy hasn't gotten so far ahead. romney hasn't gotten so far

ahead because he is going to raise more money. wall street people, new york people are crazy about this guy. he can out debate any of them. why wouldn't he be -- >> because he can't -- just on the calendar there are not enough hours in the day to campaign in new hampshire and south carolina and florida and go to the fundraisers. you can't just -- i don't think it is too late. but he wouldn't be able to build the same kind of structure that perry has even built. even though perry has only been in the race a little over a month. i still think he could win under those circumstances because of the talents that he has. >> by the way, i -- >> not just that. one of the problems perry has right now is a lot of republican activists want specificity and they're saying what is your plan to fix the economy? rick perry is saying look at what i did in texas. that is not a plan for national economic revival and they haven't had time to do what a real presidential campaign normally does which is to get

working papers out and actually have a foreign policy, domestic policy, economic policy. christie would be starting that much later and that isn't something you can make up on the fly. he doesn't have detailed policies on chinese currency manipulation. he could get them. i'm not saying he wouldn't, he couldn't be credible. but he starts very late in process. you think about bill clinton in '92. he started in october of 19191 officially but had spent three -- the better part of a year and a half giving important policy speeches at big universities. >> and he spent 20 years in elective office. >> 20 years. >> this is the thing, the bottom line. >> that's where he would be behind i think. >> this is where chris christie understands that i think even i forget sometimes because he is so damn good on the stump, so great on his feet, so much better than any political candidate i think in america on his feet right now, in debates. >> the legal background.

>> legal background is great but what we forget is when the health care debate was going on with tea party members, not so long ago, two augusts ago, he was still a prosecutor. chris christie had never been in political office while the health care debate was going. he's only been in elected office for a year and a half. less experience than barack obama when barack obama ran and was woefully ill equipped as far as experience goes to run the largest country in the world. the most powerful country in the world. so, willie, those are the sort of things. >> his experience is valuable. >> that rise up. what, his lack of experience? i'm not knocking him. i'm saying these are the things people are going to look at and go wait a second. he hasn't been in elected office for two years. >> is it necessarily true though that if he passes up this time his moment is gone? will the republican party forgive him for not taking the baton that they want to pass

right now? >> the party would forgive him but he has to run for re-election in new jersey. he could take a pass on that. history shows your time is there and you take it and you can't assume it is ever going to come around again. if he ran he could be the nominee and could be president this time. i don't see any circumstances under which he'd become stronger over time. it could happen but this is a pretty big opening. >> he could easily get defeated -- >> he won election beating a really weak incumbent. it's a democratic state. he is a republican. he's making lots of enemies right now whether you think what he's doing are good things or not he is making a lot of political enemies. he could easily not get re-elected and even if he does he won't be the subject of this clamoring or cry to get him in. it'll never happen again. >> so here is chris christie's biggest problem. he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. the fact that he hasn't been in elected office for even two

years is on one side of it but on the other side, than sounds like i'm giving conflicting advice but it's a reality. his chance is not going to come again. i know it sounds awfully harsh. you could go back 30 years to dwight eisenhower. no republican at least has been clamored after and pulled at to get into a presidential race since dwight eisenhower in 1952. that will not happen again because four years from now if barack obama is elected, it's going to be jeb bush or marco rubio or a very, very -- the republican bench is extraordinarily strong. unlike the democratic bench. this is chris christie's shot. and yet he may not have the experience to do it. >> but herman cain's success shows people want an outsider and he still acts like an outsider. >> herman cain is not going to win anything. >> i actually think about a mint ago we were talking about his

lack of experience and what i would like to say in response to that is i haven't seen someone on the political landscape with the ability to cut through the bs and answer questions and take on opponents with the kind of almost tactfulness of an experienced politician. he has this sort of raw potential that i don't think obama ever brought to the table. lack of experience yes. ability to cut through it and get to people, he may have it. i feel bad for him. i don't think he wants it. >> also unlike this president he is an extremely strong leader. whether you agree with him or not. he is a guy that has bent the arc of history in new jersey. he has shaped events himself. he certainly doesn't defer to speakers of the house for his most important policy. >> right. >> but it's fascinating. willie, you're a new jersey guy. what do you think he's going to do? >> i still don't think he's

going to do it. i think he said over and over again, i think mika brought up yesterday when you say i'm not ready for this job, it's a hard thing to back away from. >> yeah. put that out there. >> he got ready. a couple weeks passed. not ready, ready. >> so you think he might run? >> about a 30% chance. >> why do you think? >> i think he'll run. >> they're going to drag him into it. >> you think so? yippee. coming up we have jon huntsman, republican presidential candidate. also jeb bush and the mayor of new jersey cory booker will also join us. up next no rocky mountain high. politico says the president is losing ground in colorado. a swing state he had locked up three years ago. plus why it looks like his hard won health care law is now headed for the supreme court. first, here is todd santos with a check on the forecast. >> good morning, guys. you forgot to mention chris christie even cut one of the tax breaks they were giving "jersey shore" the tv show. maybe he does have some

interesting insights. we're still dealing with the low over chicago with some of those showers rotating through southern lake michigan. some of that moisture is getting kicked into western pennsylvania, slowly fading over toward central pennsylvania now. d.c. with light showers just off toward the west. we'll see an increasing chance for showers through new york, philly, even potentially toward hartford later this evening. we'll continue to monitor those. boston, dry until later on tonight. we'll be back with more morning joe right after this. yesterday doesn't win. big doesn't win. titles corner offices don't win. what wins? original wins. fresh wins. smart wins.

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republican presidential candidates gathered in florida for the fox news/google debate. the 83rd such debate so far this year. following of course the previous week's cnn tea party debate msnbc reagan library debate, the history chal civil war recreationist debate, the tron debate, the are you afraid of the dark debate, and the don't tell rick santorum we're canceling the debate debate. santorum still came in fifth in that debate. things aren't going his way. >> let's look at the morning papers. the "new york times" is reporting that u.s. officials were aware of pakistan's duplicity long before admiral mike mullen accused the country of undermining efforts in afghanistan. according to the article u.s. officials have observed a pattern of retaliation style attacks from pakistan against u.s. forces. including a border ambush that left an american dead in 2007.

"the washington post" says the national park service is going to be keeping the washington monument closed indefinitely. and that the earthquake in august caused more damage than what was originally disclosed. yesterday the park service released security video from the observation deck during the quake. it shows the structure shaking violently while visitors scramble to get down. now to our parade of papers. the minneapolis star tribune says the number of students applying to law school this fall is down about 10% nationwide. it says fewer students want to take on the debt load while job prospects are at a 15-year low. >> how about the new jersey star ledger? chris christie vetoed a tax credit of more than $400,000 as todd santos just pointed out that was nearly paid to the mtv show "jersey shore." christie said he was, quote, duty bound to see the taxpayers are not footing the bill for a show that perpetuates misconceptions about the state and its citizens. a tax credit for law and order

svu, though, was approved. you'll be glad to know. >> all right. a pretty good sign he is running. you cancel jersey shore tax credit you're in. >> standing steadfast. >> you know what i'd like to do this morning? because we have mark halpern here. >> sure. >> we have this politico thing we do. >> all right. >> he is the best. >> love that segment. let's switch things up a little and go to halpern. >> can't do that. >> we can do that. i'm making the call right now. >> going to halpern? >> wow. what are you going to do? >> well, he has to do his morning runs on the cheese ku curds. >> he's hawking his cheese curds. >> he delivers those door to door. he is like a milk man. amazing. >> cheese curds runs? >> he brings a little of wisconsin. >> i'm all for that. >> oshkosh by gosh. >> let's talk about colorado where the president finds

himself today, mark halpern, speaking at a school in denver. he won the state by nine points over mccain in 2008. but he's fighting for it this time around. >> 270 electoral votes will be a challenge for the president and colorado is a great example of a state he won last time like indiana, north carolina, virginia that is going to be a challenge. he's got to get young people energized, hispanics energized, independents. his numbers are way down in colorado. >> what happened? we had just heard 40 years ago that democrats were in the process of locking down colorado, new mexico, nevada. >> arizona? >> maybe even arizona. everything was breaking their way. the hispanic population growth out there. a lot of other things happening. but now just four years later what seemed inevitable? >> these are still purple states. they're not red states. but colorado is a state where the president's national problems are very well represented. the economy there is okay but

it's -- there is still an overhang. again, hispanics, young people, he needs an energized base to turn out in a state like that and right now they are not a particularly energized group as compared to four years ago. >> you've got in all of those states competing things. one is that there is generally even among people who would lean kind of democrat they don't love the federal government. there is a western kind of, you know, go it alone kind of sentiment out there. then you have the hispanic vote which has always been on the democrats' side growing demographically but they feel like president obama let them down on immigration reform, hasn't done anything over the course of the last two and a half years. he has a problem with that community and the numbers are showing it. >> when it comes to politics and the president certainly doesn't sell. >> just let that one lie. coming up next tony romo showing a little grit as he leads dallas to a fourth quarter comeback on monday night football. plus we learned after the game his real motivation for playing

through the pain. next in sports. also president obama offers a little help to a heckler who is removed from last night's fundraiser in l.a. >> is that his jacket? is that his jacket? i think the young man may have left his jacket. so make sure that he gets his jacket. >> concern. >> sort of a sense of concern. >> not impossible we'll title the sequel "the heckler's jacket." >> i love it. looking good! you lost some weight. you noticed! these clothes are too big, so i'm donating them. how'd you do it? eating right, whole grain. [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. multigrain cheerios... five whole grains, 110 calories. i want healthy skin for life. [ female announcer ] don't just moisturize, improve the health of your skin

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time for some sports. it's been 32 minutes since we talked about the red sox' collapse. let's revisit our top story. >> is this what you call karma? >> could be. >> is this what they call karma? >> you know what they say. >> call this payback. karma is going to get you. >> al wild card coming down to the wire. the rays enter a single game behind the imploding red sox. tampa bay hosting the yankees in st. pete. yankees doing no favors to the red sox. third game tied at two johnny damon a big single to the right side. the rays the lead. the fifth look at the catch by desmond jennings the rays' left fielder. lays out.

makes the grab. snow cone catch. rays beat the yankees, 5-2. >> you know those guys? they look like they want to play baseball, willie. at bad as uninspired as the red sox have been the rays have had an incredible run. they want this unlike the red sox. >> they want it. they might get it. with the rays' win all the red sox have to do is beat the terrible orioles. >> in the fourth red sox off to a good start. an early lead. baltimore comes back. this was the back break inner the sixth. deep fly ball to center. ellsbury looks like he made a nice catch but hits the wall and the ball comes loose. two runs scored and dino hustling around third. the relay throw is there in time. salty can't put the tag down though unfortunately. a three run inside the park home run. >> is he just froze? did he freeze? >> i don't know what happened. >> that was the season right there. >> look at the wild card. boston now tied with the rays.

they have two games remaining. >> that was the season. >> the angels lost last night so they are statistically eliminated. >> how did the red sox win at this point? >> got to get a good pitching performance. >> they will. don't worry. who is starting? >> bart. >> starting? >> yeah. >> tonight? >> yes. eric bedard. false alarm. sorry. so close. >> wow. to the national league wild card braves having a little collapse of their own. >> oh, my gosh. >> if it weren't for the red sox we'd be talking about the braves falling apart. they lost 7 of the last 10 including another loss last night to the phillies. >> phillies -- >> get cliff lee on the hill. st. louis had a golden opportunity to tie up the wald card. they came in a game back but lost to the astros. on this play in the bottom of the tenth. game tied at four. angel sanchez lays down a bunt

with the runner on third base. cannot make the play so the astros beat the cards, 5-4. that really stings for st. louis. they failed to pick up the game so are still a game back on atlanta. a little football from last night. monday night football. skins and cowboys. tony romo starting at quarterback for dallas despite suffering a cracked rib and punctured lung in last week's game. got a couple pain killer injections during the game yesterday. third quarter here feeling some heat. terribly thrown ball falls well short into the hands of kevin barnes on the next possession rex grossman, play-action. a wide open tim high tower for the touchdown. skins up, 16-9 at that point. push ahead to the fourth quarter. just over two minutes to go. down a point. romo rolls out, hits dez bryant over the middle. that set up a 40-yard dan bailey field goal. bailey's sixth field goal of the night. all of the cowboys' scoring came from his right foot. redskins win, 8 -- excuse me the

cowboys win 18-16 all on field goals. after the game romo explained why he eventually decided to play through all that pain. >> we only get to go out and do this 16 times a year really. i mean, 16 days out of 365 or whatever. i mean, you just want to be out there and you put so much time and effort in. if you can go you go. >> what did your wife say? >> let's ask her. she is in the back over there. >> you want him to play? >> hello, candace. >> she said are you kidding me? you're playing. can't have a weak husband lying around the house here. >> tony romo's wife forced him to go out and play last night. good thing she did. they won the game. >> a better influence. what happened to roger staubach? >> that guy. i don't know. the last american hero? maybe. >> we told you yesterday about michael vick upset about

officiating. >> for good reason. >> he backed off yesterday. >> he did. somebody talked to him. he accused the refs of not throwing a flag on this hit he took against the giants. it was originally believed he had broken his hand on the play but a new test yesterday showed it's just a deep bruise. he spoke to reporters after practice and vick backed off the criticism of the officials saying the refs had to do their jobs and they have tons of things to look over. i was kind of out of character and being too candid in that aspect. >> i love that. >> i apologize for being too candid and telling the truth. >> you won't hear me complaining about it anymore. came out yesterday and said vick should stop whining. the hits were legal. there you go. vick backs off criticism. coming up -- >> you know, legal or not, vick has to figure out a way to stay in this league another four years, three years. he's taken too many hard hits. he is exciting but just takes so much abuse. >> he does. sounds crazy.

with the two years off, his body was not being punished may have ended up helping him stay in the league another four years. >> i think so. that's what i keep saying about the 20 years i've taken off from exercise. >> exactly. >> i'm going to run a marathon at 60. >> also mika's opinion pages. sun life financialrating should be famous.d bad, we're working on it. so you're seriously proposing we change our name to sun life valley. do we still get to go skiing? sooner or later, you'll know our name. sun life financial.

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they had a straw poll in florida and the winner of the straw poll not mitt romney, not rick perry, the two front runners. former god fathers pizza ceo herman cain. i think his focus is right on. even his campaign ads. they don't come on too strong and they don't try to scare you and the message they send is positive for once. >> unemployment, deficits, economic decline. america is a failing nation and there is nothing we can do about

it. so might as well eat pizza. pizza is delicious and can help take america's mind off our inevitable decline and fall. if i am president i will borrow a trillion dollars more from china and spend it all on delicious, free pizza. one final pizza blowout. what do you say, america? herman cain. let's just give up and order pizza. >> 45 past the hour. time now for the must read opinion pages. we'll start with david brooks and the "new york times." he writes about what he calls the lost decade. the prognosis for the next few years is bad with a chance of worse. and the economic conditions are not even the scary part. the scary part is the political class's inability to think about the economy in a realistic way. this crisis has many currents which merge and feed off each other. no single one of these currents prolongs the crisis. it's the product of complex

interplay between them, yet the idealogues who dominate the political conversation are unable to think in holistic, emergent ways. they pick out one factor that best conforms to their prejudices and like blind men grabbing a peefs the elephant persuade themselves they understand the whole thing. >> cheery. that is cheery. >> it kind of sums things up though. you talk about the argument. >> this is david brooks' blue period. >> well, barack obama as a candidate said time to put aside childish things and work on the nation's problems and the "new york times" editorial page about david brooks and tom friedman are regular tribunes of that idea. >> and david brooks believed him. bought into the obama, i won't say myth, but the obama narrative that he was going to be grown up and it seems like david brooks is really turning against him over the past month. >> if you want to be optimistic and this column is not particularly optimistic you can

hope we'll get a republican nominee who will engage the president on a really adult conversation about meeting these challenges and have a referendum on which way to go in 2013. >> david brooks, turning on barack obama. what does it mean? >> well, look. david brooks to be fair, he also -- it wasn't three months ago that david brooks wrote the piece where he said the republican party has given -- ceased to be a serious governing party and has become like a protest movement. so to speak to david brooks' blue period, he's turned pretty strong on both sides. >> he has. no doubt about it. >> he is a homeless man at this point on the ideological spectrum. >> many are. >> yes, they are. >> one way of putting it. here is eugene robinson in "the washington post." at this point it's called on the prowl, at this point you have to wonder if the gop will fall in love with anybody. i'm trying to imagine the candidate who can maintain credibility with the party's establishment and tea party wings. if the ultra flexible romney isn't enough of a political contortionist to do it, who is? given the state of the economy, obama is going to have a tough

re-election fight no matter what. but while the president flies around the country knitting the democratic party's various constituencies back together, republicans are still waiting for mr. or ms. right to ride over the horizon. i don't know if christie can ride a horse, but this movie is not over yet. >> you think it's over? i think the movie is over. >> is it? >> i think it's mitt perry. what do you say? >> i think there is still a chance chris christie gets in the race. we spend a lot of time talking to people in the republican world and i keep hearing from sources that christie is as tom cain the former governor said yesterday, is think iing more seriously than he has before, in some ways about the practical difficulties of getting in.

rather than do i want to run it is now a question of can i pull this off? that is a change over the last six months i think. >> and willie the must read from new york sports section, joe namath going after rex ryan. the jets lose a game. namath saying rex brags too much. it is distracting to jets players. and namath is not a guy you want turning against your team. noenchts, the jet to end all jets, often on the sideline, very much a part of that team. coming out publicly saying his ego is getting in the way of the jets talking too much. >> is that fair? >> i don't think so. they've been this close to the super bowl two years in a row. i think they're doing okay. >> but he does talk a lot. >> he talks a lot. the players have seemed to respond, though. pretty well. >> rex argues if he takes the criticism off the players. he puts himself up front so people aren't talking about sanchez. >> he is a great new york character. let the guy be a character. >> he is a great new york

character. >> and he's been a winner. and by the way, how great if you are a coach that you're in the papers instead of your quarterback? i think that is exactly right. i think it's a great motto. take the heat. >> he knows what he's doing. >> he's a winner. they've won. >> coming up, republican presidential candidate jon huntsman will be here. and willie's news you can't use is next. ♪ ♪ [ dog barks ] [ birds chirping ] ♪ [ mechanical breathing ] [ engine turns over ] ♪ [ male announcer ] the all-new volkswagen passat. a new force in the midsize category. ♪

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also once again we're hearing those calls for chris christie to jump in the race. >> and new talk that new jersey governor chris christie might very well jump in the race. >> perry reportedly fueling a new push to get chris christie in the race. >> you want to add another candidate? it's like the republican primary is a season of american idol in reverse. where every week you just add some other idiot. all that's missing is that humiliating audition where the contestant mangles one of your favorite songs. ♪ that hurts me. >> it wasn't that bad. >> i thought he was pretty good.

>> christie's inaugural. when you're from new jersey you take springsteen very seriously. >> the guy said that very well. i'm sorry. >> i love this. >> last night president obama was holding a fundraiser at the house of blues in los angeles. right in the front row a guy starts heckling right in front of him calling the president the antichrist. president obama wasn't so worried about that but he was worried as the man was being hauled out by government goons that he left his jacket behind. >> i want to thank -- >> the one and only true god. the creator of heaven and the universe! jesus christ is god! jesus christ is god! >> all right. is that his jacket? is that his jacket?

is that his jacket? first of all, i agree jesus christ is the lord. i believe in that. i do have a question. i think the young man may have left his jacket. so make sure -- make sure that he gets his jacket. oh, that's yours. hold on. hold on. it's hers. and i think somebody's car keys are in there, too. see we're having all kinds of confusion here. oh, goodness gracious. there you go. all right. i wasn't sure. don't leave your jacket around like that. >> so it turned out it was a woman's jacket. now let's think about this for a minute. there could have been a security concern there. the guy leaves behind his jacket you don't know what is in the jacket. >> that's right.

>> a jacket. >> the jacket. >> all right. still ahead, jon huntsman, jeb bush. "newsweek" daily beast editor tina brown on "morning joe." [ male announcer ] you've climbed a few mountains during your time. and having a partner like northern trust -- one of the nation's largest wealth managers -- makes all the difference. our goals-based investment strategies are tailored to your needs and overseen by experts who seek to maximize opportunities while minimizing risk. after all, you don't climb a mountain just to sit at the top. you lookround for other mountains to climb. ♪ expertise matters. find it at northern trust. [ woman ] my heart medication isn't some political game. [ man ] our retirement isn't a simple budget line item. [ man ] i worked hard. i paid into my medicare. [ man ] and i earned my social security.

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upset, or burning. if you have afib not caused by a heart valve problem, ask your doctor if pradaxa can reduce your risk of a stroke. for more information or help paying for pradaxa, visit pradaxa.com. eight sweaty guys are all sweating and then you're there. are you being treated differently because you're the only woman in the race do you think? >> you know, i don't think so. i've never felt that way. i grew up with three brothers

and no sisters. >> nothing like that? >> i don't think, you know, i grew up with three brothers and no sisters. that is the best preparation for politics any girl can have. i don't feel in any way that i am discriminated against. i am just grateful to be in the race. >> i'd say it's just a question that might raise the issue. welcome back to "morning joe." we have editor-in-chief of "newsweek" magazine and the daily beast tina brown joining the table back with us this morning. >> hello everybody. >> how are you doing? >> great. >> "newsweek" is fascinating. on the cover, it's on america's best reality show. and of course talking about the gop nomination fight. inside, a study of roger ales and it's an absolutely fascinating article by howard kirtz. >> it's great. ales remains the great ring

master of all of it. in a sense he has taken the gop race now, the debates which everybody thought at one point was going to be a bunch of stiffs sort of standing there kind of like completely dutiful tv and it's actually become this really fun american idol as jon stewart mentioned. this has become -- he has become the simon kocowell of politics. >> there is an article in "new york" magazine a few months ago by gabe sherman who had suggested that ales had gone too far. had taken the republican party over the cliff. and what i find so fascinating about this "newsweek" article is ales basically admits that everything sherman wrote was right. listen to this. >> it's true. >> the left is on, fox is a propaganda arm for ales' conservativism but as president obama's popularity plummeted something unexpected happened. roger ales pulled back on the

throttle. he calls it, quote, a course correction quietly adochted at fox over the last year. glenn beck's inflammatory rhetoric is ranting about obama being a racist, quote, became a bit of a branding issue for us. >> that is absolutely right. >> so ales is admitting he took the republican party. >> too far. >> too far. over the cliff. and he is trying to pull it back now. >> absolutely. one of the things he is admitting is that glenn beck was over the top. also when the gabby giffords moment happened i think it was a come to jesus moment for a lot of people. ales, who is a shrewd business guy thought his network could become toxic if he wasn't going to pull back so very carefully he has been pulling it back. if you notice all of bill o'reilly talking points recently, all about staying on messages being we're not going to be as extreme as the glenn beck tack went. so he has pulled it back.

he is amazingly deft. >> do you think the gabby gifford shooting was a moment -- i think it became a self-evaluation moment and also the stuff glenn beck was saying when he was calling, you know, making comments that seemed racist and so on. these are the things that could be very harmful to the network. >> i'll venture a controversial opinion which is that there is no place in american main stream media or politics where crazy and hateful are good for your brand. >> right. >> in the long run. >> absolutely right. >> in the long run. >> in the long run. you know, actually -- >> you could drive ratings in the short term on crazy and hateful but in the long run bad for business. >> it doesn't pay off. if you look, it wasn't just at fox. it was at other net works. you look, and at other publications. after the gabby giffords

shooting a lot of people were called to the front office. and said guess what. we're in a new era. tone it down and dial it back. i find it so fascinating that again this gabe sherman article which fox pushed back at really hard has proven to be exactly right. >> yeah. >> thank you. our magazine in gabe's behalf, thank you for standing up for him. he had the story exactly right at the time and it's proven. >> he always has it right and you really need to read that article and this article. >> together. >> back to back. and you get an extraordinary view of a political institution that is almost unlivld. >> and tour point that crazy doesn't sell check out joe's politico piece this week because crazy doesn't win ultimately. >> that is my argument in politico today is that crazy never wins. one reason we're seeing rick perry collapse, same reason we saw bachmann collapse, the same reason why newt never took office, same reason why sarah palin never took off. and i talked about my dad again who by the way in the primaries

voted for nixon in '60, goldwater '64. nixon. every time. dole. crazy never wins. >> but crazy makes great television. >> of course. >> it makes great television. >> that is the issue that in a sense there is a conspiracy to kind of make it seem for a while as if crazy will win. >> exactly. >> but it won't. >> if fox moved from being right to center right they could be more powerful than they are now which is pretty darned powerful and i think roger ales understands the problem for the republican party is parallel to the problem for fox. which is you need to get back a little bit to the center to try to expand your reach. >> as you see with chris wallace i think is doing great, great stuff in the debates. >> the reality is, though, for fox news, for rush limbaugh, sean hannity, for a lot of the conservative talkers, and we're talking about right versus center right, they live in a perpetual state where it is primary season and the republican party, 1994.

i mean, that's why -- that's why they can influence primaries. as far as congressional races. but they're never going to have the huge influence like you said until you move center right on actually who wins the republican nomination. because nobody over there supported john mccain in 2008 and nobody over there is supporting mitt romney in 2012. yet that's what is going to happen because again they live -- they live in a world where it's constantly a gop primary and a conservative year. and that's just not the reality. >> it's a false choice to say you have to either rally the base or appeal to the center. you must do both. the republican nomination fight is being fought mostly on the far right with the exception of jon huntsman who will be here soon. and fox has played mostly on the far right. to become a majority party again they're going to have to figure out how to play -- >> how ironic. >> but nobody can play a bigger role really.

>> absolutely. >> that is what is so interesting about what he is saying in the piece. this adjustment is going to be -- he is going to have a very big impact now on how the race adjusts. >> one theperson that has gotte this along is o'reilly, loathed by the far left, loathed by media matters, but o'reilly has always tilted toward the center at specific times. while glenn beck was calling the president a racist during the health care debate bill o'reilly was going, you know what? i can support a public option. he always did a nod and a wing. i think glenn beck is crazy too. >> he talks about it, he calls him just a performer in this piece. >> is roger ales the most powerful republican in america? >> i would say so. >> is fox news more of a news organization a political organization? >> what is so interesting in this piece is you see the

tension between the two. above all roger ales is a great television producer. >> right. >> he understands how to make greet theater. so at the moment you're seeing the dynamic of him pulling back because it is bad for business as you rightly say and at the same time manipulating the republican race but always, always keeping in mind what is good for business. the question is, where does he pivot in the next round? >> let us never forget that roger ales was before he was a great television producer, a great political strategist. and was someone who was a bone deep partisan. >> maybe a little too good at both. >> i mean, won the election for george herbert walker bush in 1988. he's played both sides of that street for a long time. >> as was just said, a little too good at both. >> just like a hell of a lot of people in the main stream media over the past 30 years have played both sides of the street but they are always on the democratic side. that's what makes it so unique. people are shocked and stunned at the blurred lines when roger ales and fox does it, not so shocked and stunned when

democratic establishment figures are doing it over the past three decades. >> what is different is roger has been awesome at both jobs. >> exactly right. that's why he is such a fiend. >> a fiend? well. >> a fiend to be so good at it. >> something totally different in england. >> it does mean something different. >> it's like schemer. >> a term of endearment. >> we need to save you from yourself. i have a feeling tina, you just called roger ales a fiend. >> it's a compliment. >> that is a compliment coming from you. >> absolutely. just like you have a grudging respect at least for roger ales and also -- >> more than grudging. >> and also for his boss. >> nothing grudging. he is a great producer and maestro. >> he is a demon sheep but she says that admiringly. >> admiringly. just like your father calls me stunningly superficial. >> very loving. that was affectionate. >> a term of endearment. >> i never want to think about

that again. >> yeah. >> let's get a little more news in here. president obama heads to colorado today. he is going to be selling his jobs plan at a denver high school but at a town hall yesterday hosted by the social networking site linked in, he was asked about the u.s. unemployment crisis. and president obama turned the conversation to the global economy and the ongoing financial crisis in europe. >> they have not fully healed from the crisis back in 2007 and never fully dealt with all the challenges that their banking system faced. it's now being compounded with what's happening in greece so they're going through a financial crisis that is scaring the world. they're trying to take responsible actions but those actions haven't been quite as quick as they need to be. >> he also took a question about taxes from one out of work california resident. take a listen. >> i don't have a job. but that's because i've been

lucky enough to live in silicon valley for a while. and work for a small startup down the street here that did quite well. so i'm unemployed by choice. my question is, would you please raise my taxes? >> so often the tax debate gets framed as class warfare. and, look. as i said, at the outset, america's success is premised on individuals, entrepreneurs having a great idea, going out there and pursuing their dreams and making a lot of money in the process. that's great. that's part of what makes america so successful. >> so i tell you what we're going to do as a public service. for all of those

multi-millionaires out there that want people making $250,000 and urban centers with five children who want them to pay more taxes what we're going to do for you is get you -- and warren buffet maybe can use this. for all of those who are unemployed by choice. >> for all those who are unemployed by choice, multi-millionaires who want people who are working who make $250,000 in new york city and have five kids, what we're going to do for you is we're going to put up the irs's address and if you want to go ahead and pay more taxes to the federal government, wait, hold on -- i'm hearing in my ear they will take your check. that's exciting. so if you're whining about wanting to pay more taxes, "morning joe", in conjunction with maybe starbucks will get in on this or maybe you can get in on this, "new york" magazine. >> that's right. >> will allow you to pay more taxes. i'm offended by his point. if he wants to pay more taxes he should pay more taxes. that doesn't mean people who make $250,000 should pay more taxes right now in an economic downturn.

>> that's not what he is advocating. >> that is what he is advocating. >> no. >> he wants lots of people to pay more taxes not just him. >> he said please raise my taxes. i think there is someone on the ways and means committee who could write a little thing in the tax code on that guy. >> i'm in silicon valley, multi-millionaire. >> unemployed by choice. >> my favorite new category. >> by choice. >> mitt romney is unemployed by choice. right? >> exactly. >> just be nice. >> what do you think he'll put on his tax returns? >> sounds great, mika. >> sure does. >> he'll put unemployed. you know what else he will do? he will use every tax advantage he can get so he won't even pay the 35% that people make $250,000 pay. if he is a multi-millionaire and he is unemployed by choice he lives in silicon valley, he'll end up paying about 16% or 17% and feel good about himself self-righteously saying he wants to pay more taxes when in fact he pays a lot less tax rate than people who work their ass off

and make $250,000. those people are so offensive to me. warren buffet is so offensive to me. if they want to pay more taxes, you know what? just pay the bush tax rate of 35%. stop weiaseling around with you tax law. you can't have it both ways. >> they have flotillas of tax lawyers. >> they do. if you're going to pay an 18% tax rate, don't whine about other people paying a 35% tax rate who can't afford your lawyers and your accountants. this is just hypocrisy, tina. what is the word you used for roger? i think that guy is a -- >> fiend. >> he is a fiend. except he is a real fiend. >> no, i think his point was more broad. >> it was more broad. he wants everybody else to pay more tax. >> it was a smug little aria. >> there is a good case. you can make an honest case for more progress with the tax code but to do it in that kind of self-righteous, self-congratulatory chest beating way is a little unattractive coming from a

multi-millionaire who calls himself unemployed by choice. >> he is going to regret the day he ever stood up in that crowd. >> this is the thing americans need to understand that i would say progressives need to understand about the tax debate. they will say, raise taxes. raise taxes. and what they need to understand is, if we keep the current code as it is, all you're doing is raising taxes on people who make from like $250,000 to a million dollars. the millionaires and billionaires, warren buffets of the world, that unemployed multi-millionaire in silicon valley are always going to pay 18%. they're always going to game the system unless we get real tax reform. >> it is certainly true that whatever you come up with they will figure out a way to not pay. >> yes. so maybe he will feel better and warren buffet will feel better if we say the tax rate is 50% for top income earners. but they'll never pay that. that's why it oefffends me. >> former governor and presidential candidate jon

huntsman will join us onset and later we'll continue our education nation series with former governor of florida jeb bush and mayor of newark, cory booker. up next, chuck todd is standing by at the white house and joining us onset nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent andrea mitchell. but first, let's go straight to todd santos for the check on the forecast. todd? >> hey there. still tracking at least some of these showers. thunderstorms going on across the country. some will have implications travelwise especially for places like chicago, indianapolis, eventually toledo and even potentially detroit later on today. notice some of those swinging around the eastern periphery of that low especially through portions of pennsylvania, some of those clouds on the west side of philly right now, increasing chance for showers there. d.c. you see a little green showing up on the map in new york. it may take until a little later in the day before we get some showers so despite the sunshine this morning, make sure you have an umbrella with you. also tracking some of these showers and thunderstorms down through portions of mississippi. some of those may clip tuscaloosa over in western alabama over the next couple hours. very active lightning producers at this hour, not dealing with severe storms there.

potentially gusty winds. there is a look at the map across the whole country. also the pacific northwest with some showers. cool temperatures for some of us this morning especially chicago with a little rebound into the lower 60s. we'll be back with more "morning joe" coming up.

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we put together a segment called rick perry. he had some trouble in the most recent debate. rambling man. take it away. >> is it the mitt romney that was on the side against the second amendment before he was for the second amendment? was it before the social programs from the standpoint he was for standing up for roe vs. wade before he was against verse -- roe vs. wade?

he was for race to the top. he he's -- >> rick perry rambling man. like i have a twin, ladies and gentlemen. >> that is horrible. we didn't even show the clips where he was talking about that pakistani country. >> joining us now is someone who knows a lot about that. nbc chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of andrea mitchell reports, andrea mitchell. and from the white house, nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director and host of the daily rundown, chuck todd. good morning, chuck. andrea, good to have you here. >> not much of a chance the perry campaign with "rambling man" is a theme song. >> pretty funny. >> opening up okay in a recent cnn poll. what is the feeling in the campaign? the campaign feels as if they can at all begin a conversation about mitt romney that that is still what they have going for them. is that they're not mitt romney. i do think that's something. when we look at all the chris

christie speculation, look at where -- what happened in florida over the straw poll, and when you look at rick perry's initial rise, all of it was because they weren't mitt romney, right? this has ultimately been about his inability to coalesce the establishment around him, to take his front runner status and solidify it. and, you know, he may be the last plan standing at the end of the day and all of this may play itself out and may just be like what happened with john mccain. but i tell you, this has got to be oddly both -- a little frustrating for team romney that all of these problems for perry and as i had one romney person say, come on. he's making himself to be borderline unqualified to do this campaign. and yet they're still losing to the guy. >> he seems unqualified. certainly unqualified to complete his sentence in a debate. you could find a hundred clips

like that. he seems ill equipped and yet he is still ahead of everybody else. >> the debate was a disaster. brit humes said he threw up all over himself. on sunday it was also said debates don't matter. >> of course they matter. i love mary but debates matter. >> it does tell you there was some republican establishment support. the republican party is basically two parties now. and there is the tea party part of the republican party which is still looking at rick perry and still sees him as an alternative to mitt romney. >> boy, he sure got shot down in florida. in a straw poll he was trying hard to win. >> he was trying hard to win and showed no organizational skill. they are still giving him a chance, there is this bloomberg debate in hanover, new hampshire, october 11th. great venue and sponsors, charlie rose. if he can perform better there is the establishment, wall street republican party that wants mitt romney.

>> right. >> then there is the sort of broader hunger for chris christie. i'm not convinced he is out of it. >> it seems to me the whole problem with romney versus perry is romney still has the future ex-husband look about him. we look at him and we know he is never going to make that connection which is why that hunger is there for chris christie because it doesn't matter how good romney is in the debate. that whole lack of connection is still what is thwarting him. >> we're talking about chris christie again. >> let's ask chuck what he thinks. >> potentially as a vice presidential candidate. he has said he is not going to run. he wants to be left alone. >> does he have the personality to be a vice presidential candidate? >> no. >> chuck, the chatter about chris christie. as halpern and heilman say, it's just reached pretty remarkable highs. >> if i told you that a guy who wasn't running but was rumored to be running was traveling to

wake up this morning in missouri to campaign for congressional candidate in the second congressional district delivering a speech tonight at the reagan library, hanging out with meg whitman raising money tomorrow, and doing a campaign rally with bobby jindal on thursday, by the way the speech title is real american exceptionalism, would you stha person was leaning toward running for national office or leaning toward not running? >> i would say that person sounds an awful lot like sarah palin, andrea mitchell. who has been flirting for months. chris christie is flirting now. that doesn't necessarily mean he is going to jump in. >> i agree with mika. no sarah palin. >> no, just playing the press. >> the real american exceptionalism at the invitation as chuck reported a bit ago. nancy reagan. that is an anointment.

>> i just hope he doesn't run. in the end his tremendous misgivings, maybe he is right. we have this with obama. he wasn't ready really. >> got four little kids. >> maybe christie isn't ready. maybe he feels like everybody wants him to but perhaps he does need longer. >> you could also argue that he might have a better chance at this moment of becoming the president of the united states than being re-elected governor of new jersey and given all of the problems of running that state. >> that is true. >> mark halpern, you wrote the book on it, on running for president. you showed just the brutality of that process. if you have any question in your mind as to whether you should run or not, i've always said you better not run because you're going to end up, it is going to be bad for you, your wife, your kids, for everybody. >> there is no question that if he does get in it'll be with a

lot of ambivalence. but there is a huge vacuum. of the two front runners have not come close to consolidating the kind of support they'll need to win the nomination. there is space for him despite that ambivalence. >> several people on the set over the past few days have said this is his only chance. if he is going to do it this is his only chance, his hottest chance. so maybe he just shouldn't do it ever. >> ever. >> okay? because has anyone ever thought about that? >> if you wanted the republican to win you could pick chris christie, mitt romney, or rick perry to run against obama, who would you say would be the strongest? >> you're asking that as if it's a foregone conclusion that it's chris christie. >> no. i'm not so sure. >> i would tell thaw a month after chris christie got in the race and we've learned everything there is to learn about chris christie. >> not so sure mitt romney wouldn't be the strongest. >> in a general election. >> we love the guy.

we make no secret of the fact we love the guy. >> he is extremely deft at being who he is. on stage, on camera. not changing. being what i guess appears to be real and kind of gritty and refreshing. >> but, you know. >> he is deft at that. >> the only thing people want to hear is this guy is going to get my job back. and that's the only question they're going to be asking when they look at who is on stage. romney has begun to look like the business guy who could perhaps come in and make the sale. >> mika is right. chris christie is great with when the stage is new jersey but i remember something cokie roberts said probable any1998 to david brinkley. she said i've been in washington a long time and i've seen it happen time and time again where governors, senators, ambassadors, they all think i've been around this town and i know what playing hardball is really like. then they step into a presidential race and realize there is nothing like it. and i know andrea knows that.

tina knows that. you know that. it's one thing to be great. on the stage of new jersey. it is quite another. there is a reason why mitt romney was terrible four years ago and everybody is saying how great he is this year. >> because of the practice. look at perry. >> chuck? i agree with the sentiment that says be careful. if you're not all in, don't do it. and at the end of the day, you know, i remember tom daschle -- everybody around him was pushing him in. this was a very similar moment in '03 and '04 where democrats were nervous about dean. they were not enamored with kerry. gephardt wasn't doing well. they were looking for somebody else. they couldn't get hillary to do it. and there was this entire sort of the leftover democratic establishment. put all this pressure on daschle. he finally relented. they started putting the campaign together and then he got up literally the next morning and said, what am i

doing? no. because his heart was never in it. it was never something that he had ambition all his life to do. now the difference with christie as you hear is he does have this ambition to some day be president. so that's why you can see that maybe he could put his energy into it. boy, it's tough. >> i tell you. a man who knows himself, colin powell. >> same thing. he kufsed. >> if you're ambivalent and it's the fall, i tell you what. it's awfully tough to do it. maybe he will. seriously, we can't be talking about this two weeks from now. he either jumps in -- three more weeks and then it's over. >> i don't think there is that much time. there are real ballot deadlines. if you get on the ballot. ask steve forbes. i don't think he got on every ballot and he got in in november. you cannot wait until after october. >> the window closes in october.

he should be on that stage november 10 or 11, hanover, new hampshire. thank you very much. we'll see you at 9:00 on the daily rundown. tomorrow we'll have sting on the show and also talk to former governor and presidential candidate mitt romney and standing by in the green room presidential candidate jon huntsman. more "morning joe" when we come back. [ male announcer ] you've climbed a few mountains during your time. and having a partner like northern trust -- one of the nation's largest wealth managers -- makes all the difference. our goals-based investment strategies are tailored to your needs and overseen by experts who seek to maximize opportunities while minimizing risk. after all, you don't climb a mountain just to sit at the top. you lookround for other mountains to climb. ♪

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welcome back to "morning joe" from six past the hour. a little look at the headlines right now. the 2010 health care law, one of president obama's signature issues, could soon take on added significance in next year's election race. the justice department announcing it will not ask the 11th circuit court of appeals to reconsider its previous ruling that the individual mandate portion of the bill is unconstitutional. now the obama administration decision could pave the way for the supreme court to take up the bill during its current session. the justice department declined to comment on its next steps but if the high court receives the case, a ruling could come by next summer, that is in the thick of the 2012 campaign.

>> that is fascinating. >> what timing. >> isn't it fascinating, mark halpern the justice department not appealing the 11th circuit's decision. >> to get the full reconsideration. >> get the full reconsideration. >> no reason to believe they decided for political reasons but it has huge political implications. some are saying this means the administration believes they have five votes to uphold the law. i'm not sure how they could know that. >> they don't know that unless they've been talking to anthony kennedy. i don't think anthony kennedy will know until the night before he writes -- >> i think you can pretty well guarantee they're not talking to anthony kennedy. >> i know that. i was just joking. >> i know. >> it's a 4-4 vote right now and it -- >> right. >> it swings. this bill swings whichever way anthony kennedy swings. >> right. >> that means he is going to have a big decision to make on the substance knowing that the politics of it would just be enormous. >> the power that kennedy has on the court has to be -- >> he might be more powerful than roger ingalls.

>> the power that sandra day o'connor has had for years and years. >> tina brown, thank you so much. andrea mitchell, thank you as well. >> thank you, andrea. >> franco harris today. >> we've got education nation. >> you've got it all. >> huge. >> andrea, we'll see you then. coming up next former utah governor and presidential candidate jon huntsman next on "morning joe." ♪

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to conservative republicans but we must also bring into the tent moderate republicans. independents and, yes, conservative democrats. >> i like what he says. that made sense. the question is, what do you do with that? >> that sounds rational. >> that wasn't a republican debate audience. >> that wasn't a candidate who actually wants to win beyond the nomination. joining us now former republican governor of utah, by the way, my choice a year ago, and candidate for the republican nomination for president. >> that's not healthy. that's not going to help him. >> keep talking. >> he'll take it. >> then i have joe saying it's down to a two-person race. >> you and mitt romney. >> that i'll take. >> you are bragging about the fact and i would brag about it, too, you are no longer the asterisk man. new hampshire, the margin of error candidate, the state

you're focusing on mainly, new hampshire, new polls out, and shows that you're in double digits and that race may get competitive yet. >> it's going to get very competitive. this is a state where the voting population, they've seen it all. they've heard it all. we've done nothing on television. this is all town hall meetings. this is all house parties walking the streets, getting to know people, and them getting to know you and what's in your heart and soul. these are folks who, with whom you need to make the sale. >> there is a lot of volatility in that statement. michele bachmann, we were talking about a few weeks back, was way out. now it seems like you're moving up. it's been a slow and steady rise. it's only september. you don't want to flame out. you want to be a rising star, not a shooting star. everybody is looking for who's on the cover of "time" magazine, who is up here in the polls. it's got to be a gradual, steady rise based on substance, based upon those early building blocks in new hampshire. we haven't had a single vote cast. we haven't had a single primary.

>> i get that. i definitely get the slow build but how do you break through when all these other candidates are sucking all the oxygen out of the room? how do you not peter out? how does your candidacy stay alive? >> listen, when i first came here to new york three months ago and we were getting our campaign under way, it was pawlenty the guy getting the money and endorsements. you come back the next month and it's michele bachmann getting the endorsements and the money. then you come here most recently and it's governor perry. he's getting the money. he's getting the endorsements. i can tell you exactly how these things are going to play out most likely and we'll be two or three months downstream and there is going to be a different set of circumstances and then the body politic is going to shift to new hampshire. >> let me ask you this. do you think it's an advantage to your campaign that unlike governor perry you can complete a sentence? >> i'm sorry. i'll move over here. >> oh. >> let me ask you about rick perry, a friend of yours. your campaign the last day or so has been somewhat critical of his foreign policy performance in the debate.

is rick perry as knowledgeable on foreign policy as you are? >> well, you draw out differences, compare and contrast. i've lived overseas four times. i've been an ambassador three times for my country. i know a little bit about foreign policy. and i think i stand on that stage as a unique candidate having been a practitioner of foreign policy. so i think that is a unique differentiator that ultimately the people of this country are going to look at when they say, this is a complex, confusing set of circumstances in this world and, yes, it would be nice to have a president who understands some of the complexities and nuances. >> does rick perry have the foreign policy knowledge and experience to be president? >> a lot of presidents don't. they learn it on the job. they've been exposed to a limited extent before they get there. you look at all of the last few presidents and, you know, you had george bush who had some experience, george bush sr. he had the job i had in china. but mostly very little exposure to the rest of the world. governors typically don't have a lot of exposure to the world. they do trade missions, receive

foreign delegations from time to time. you have to learn it on the job. >> governor, you're here in new york city. last night you were raising some money, sat in some pretty well u up holstered living rooms and getting a positive response. why is it that you shouldn't be appealing to a lot of the donor class, why are all of those people still trying to get chris christie into this race rather than turning to governor huntsman number one. number two, at the end of this month we finish the third fund raising quarter. you going to be healthy money wise when we come out of that? >> the marketplace is always looking for the new, new thing and once they get it's brought down to earth. your best day is the day before you announce and then reality sets in and that is you got to be like everybody else. and so i don't fault the marketplace for being that way. we live in a free market of politics and you're always looking around the bend for the next thing. in terms of money, money is going to follow a message. and we're going to have some money. we're doing about what i thought

we would do with a lot of people who were still sitting on the fence. my message to a lot of the entrepreneurs and successful business types in this town is, you didn't get to be where you are by sitting on the fence. you got to be where you are by investing in an undervalued stock. if you can see us as an undervalued stock and take the ride upward -- >> if you need to will you get the checkbook out and write another check? >> i don't anticipate doing that. we're going to focus on new hampshire. that is not an overly expensive market. that is a market where the old adlai stevenson shoe leather is important. i know how to work that market. the early signs are that we're connecting with the people. they like the message. it's got to be about vision. at the end of the day you've got to have substance, real plans, a world view. the people in new hampshire get that and are responding to it. >> okay. arguably somewhat of a softball, but -- >> why -- >> because the republican party, sometimes they seem to grapple with getting someone to win the nomination who can win.

it seems like perry, you know, great for the base but not someone who can win. why as opposed to the other republican candidates are you the best opponent for president obama? >> well, first of all, i come from a background as governor of having created the number one economy in america based upon what "forbes" magazine had to say, the best managed state in america, the number one job creator. the discussion around 2012 is going to be about jobs and economic expansion. i think i bring a whole lot of background and accomplishments to that discussion. but in the end, as the republican party looks at it, like it or not coming out of new hampshire into south carolina, people are going to say, who can win? not who do we like out of the field and who meets our litmus test, but who can win? we've actually got to win over some people who voted for barack obama last time to make the math work. that's the untold truth that a lot of people don't want to talk about. we've got to win independents and conservative democrats in order to make the math work. >> why isn't your time as serving as ambassador to china

valid and why wouldn't you bring that up? >> i talk about it wherever i go and where people ask me about it i say when my nation asks me to serve during a time of war during a time of economic hardship i'm going to stand up and serve my country. i'll take that philosophy to my grave. there may be a certain percentage of voters who say, no how no way because he served a democrat but i served reagan and bush. >> but china is valuable insight that others don't have. >> let's talk foreign policy for a minute. obviously the big crisis right now, pakistan. there are some people that would suggest we need to stay in afghanistan for another decade. others that are coming on the set this week, senator kirk from illinois, has talked about how the united states has to make a stra teenl strategic shift back to india and stop trying to play both sides and admit pakistan is not a friend. is pakistan a friend of the united states of america? >> of america? >> pakistan is a merely transactional relationship, straight up,ing in more. and we have to see it as such. >> if that's the case and india has been an ally at least for the past two decades or so, have

we made a mistake over the past ten years -- >> yes. >> -- by tilting that relationship more toward pakistan? >> whether it was born out of the balance of power of politics, we had to go to war. we had to do it. follow the trajectory of the last 30 or 40 years and you'll get your answer. >> where we are in 2011, do we shift back to india? >> absolutely. >> a greater emphasis on india and let pakistan know if you're not going to play ball with us -- >> no question. our two most compelling foreign policy needs for as far as the eye can see into the 21st century, one, international economic policy, trade and investment, what plays to creating jobs at home. that should drive our foreign policy. two, it's counterterrorism, the asymmetric threat we are up against. you say, where are our friends and allies who share those two foreign policy drives? india shares both of them. israel shares both of them. i think we need to look at the world based upon where we sit today and what our needs are going forward. >> when do we live afghanistan?

>> i'd like to draw down to a small representative force, those gathering intelligence, those who are giving special forces, cleanup work, and those who may be training a little bit of the afghan national army as quickly as we can. >> were you disappointed last week when rick perry -- you understand international diplomacy better than anyone else in the race -- was to horrified that rick perry took a stage in new york city with israeli politicians standing behind him and attacked the president of the united states in the middle of an extraordinary difficult week for president obama. >> unprecedented. unprecedented. i've never seen that before. i've never heard of it before. i thought it was a bad practice. >> all right. thanks for being with us, hanging out. mika, i said it before, i'll say it again, when you look at new hampshire, it's a two-man race. >> yes, it is. >> huntsman and romney. >> joe can spin like nobody else. >> same in utah, too.

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ask your rheumatologist how you can defend against and help stop further joint damage with humira. rick perry is in trouble. number ten, lost support from both the whack jobs and nutjobs. number nine, at debate he mostly goes with, "that's what she said. "eight, downgraded from campaign bus to vespa scooter. number seven, too mitt fi for

newt supporters and too newty for mitt supporters. his new slogan, come on! advisers are thinking of replacing him with luke perry. number four, just went hiking on the border of iraq and iran. number three, even his wife is wearing a her man caine button. number two, instead of freeman and liberty his cowboy now read it's and over. even michele bachmann thinks he's not sane. >> good morning. it's 8:00 a.m. on the east coast. a live look at new york city. back with us on set, the game change boys, mark halperin and john isleman. you know, recent debate and straw poll performances aside, a new poll is out. >> why don't i do it. >> what it chose is texas governor rick perry is in trouble. >> actually, it remains -- he'

atop the gop field according to the latest cnn poll. perry takes 30% of the vote in a republican primary with mitt romney eight points behind at 22%, the front-runners are followed by newt gingrich and herman cain. michele bachmann continues to see her numbers dwindle, just 6%. however, rom e knee still fares better than perry with a head-to-head matchup with barack obama. perry received only 46% support against the president. also in cnn's poll, 46% of americans agree with romney on the issues versus 39% for perry. 46% for romney is ten points higher than the number who agreed with romney in his 2008 white house run. herman cain, still riding high from his straw poll victory, joined the wave of criticism against the texas governor during an interview on fox news yesterday.

>> with all due respect, it was not up to prime time. his performance, quite frankly, wasn't even on par with anybody on that stage, not in terms of the issues per se but in just debate delivery. >> all right. so, of course, if these polls had shown rick perry had fallen below mitt romney, i would pay more attention. but these remind me of polls that said giuliani was going to win four years ago. see thousand howe nimble i am. >> giuliani was well-known, a national figure. rick perry, people are keying off something else. >> it's not good. >> well, i mean, if we were -- if he collapsed in the polls after the debate, it's possible that insiders are paying a lot more attention to these debates d -- >> but what about money people? and, again, i'm dead serious here. so we have a general snapshot of america. what obviously matters are iowa, new hampshire, south carolina, and the people that are writing big checks right now.

>> yes. >> and both you guys, i would guess, have heard no good news coming out of that group regarding rick perry over the past week or so. >> well, certainly in this city he's not won over as many as they would have liked. but they seem confident that both in the campaign and in the super pac there's going to be enough money to be competitive financially. >> john, what do you think? >> they do seem confident in perry and the perry world and i think they may be able to raise that money. be there's no doubt there is a clamor in a lot of the republican donor class in this city and in other cities right now for chris christie. it's deafening right now. there's the sound of -- there's -- rick perry's problem is he has both the grassroots problem to some extent because people are worried about him with some of his answers on some questions, but a problem in the donor class, a problem for mitt romney also in the donor class. you would think at this moment with perry stumbling that

romney, who should be an acceptable candidate for the donor class, you haven't seen this loud screeching, you know, for christie, not just for an alternative but christie in particular. it is deafening around both the republican and some moderate democrat donor types who really want -- want nothing to more than chris christie to get in this race. >> mika, i have to say last week we talked about it on air for a minute, but it was really stunning walking just outside the hall. we've got the guests that come in and occasionally, you know, mika will go out to have a smoke and a quick shot. and so we're walking out there, and she's third pack, and i won't mention their names, but people who are down the middle, just everybody around here is talking about chris christie jumping in the race, this is his time. if he doesn't -- >> i feel bad for him. i wish they would leave him alone. >> he's loving it. >> no. >> if he doesn't do it now, his

political career -- and i agree, as john kennedy said when you see blue sky, you go for it. if he doesn't run this time, there will be no blue sky. >> i was in colorado over the weekend and at west point in a different gathering last night. people across the spectrum, not just political activists but those casually interested in the campaign are buzzing about chris christie. >> what have you got, mika, on that front? >> a couple things, speaking of chris christie. tomorrower new jersey goff or the tim keane says his long time friend is, quote, seriously considering a run for the white house. christie will give a closely watched speech at the ronald reagan presidential library today entitled "real american exceptionalism." that definitely sounds like someone is dabbling. that's for sure. >> and the former governor certainly doesn't shoot his mouth off. >> no, and he knows christie well. >> one of the real grown-ups in american politics. >> it seems to me if you're projecting every time the news

comes up, i'm not ready for it, i'm not running, i don't know how many times i can say it, the only way i can run you guys off is if i committed suicide, and then you go to the ronald reagan presidential lie bare and make a speech about american exceptionalism in the middle of all that buzz, you're not turning it off. >> no doubt sbt he's playing a , showing a little leg and then saying, please stop looking at me that way. >> i disagree with that. >> he's going to the reagan library. you don't understand. >> i don't think he's saying -- >> foreign policy. >> doesn't new jersey border canada? >> i'm not rooting -- >> just a little slaifrt the top, i think. >> don't you think it's fair to say, joe, that the republican field is so bad that he is being hounded, hounded and gobs of money are being thrown at him and that he's -- people are falling on their knees and begging him to run for president. >> so. >> and the fact he could go on

the air with diane sawyer and say i'm not ready and still are all these doors opening, i don't think this is a guy showing a little leg, hoping people will look. i think he's got all these eyeballs on him because there is no one else. there's no one else. >> first of all, mitt romney would beat barack obama today if the election were held today. and i would bet my house on that fact. it wouldn't, in fact, be close. if the election were held today. it's not going to be held today. a lot of things can happen. and so, to say that there's nobody in the race, i don't think is fair to mitt romney. maybe one or two others. there's one thing that was said yesterday, though, and i'll let you jump in here, and i forget who said it, but it was a great insight, and that is if i'm chris christie, i look at what happened to rick perry and i know it's always -- if we want to continue this analogy, you know, the girl is always a lot more exciting to imagine dating

than actually dating. and rick perry was going to be the savior of the republican party. he came in and got torn to shreds. chris christie has to know that waits for him. >> potentially, although i think he's got a different skill set than rick perry and wouldn't have the exact same problems. if this were a three-way race on equal footing, perry and christie and romney, equal money, equal time in iowa and new hampshire, i think christie would have a pretty good chance given the mood of the electorate. he wouldn't enter on equal footing but he can look at the rick perry experience and say this guy hasn't gotten far. >> because he's going to raise more money, i mean, wall street people, new york people are crazy about this guy. >> yeah. >> he's going to raise so much money, he can outdebate any of them. so why wouldn't he be on equal footing? >> because of the calendar. there are not enough hours in the day to campaign in new hampshire and south carolina and florida and go to the fund-raisers. you can't -- i don't think it is

too late, but he wouldn't be able to build the same kind of structure that perry has even built even though perry's been in the race a little over a month. i still think he could win under those circumstances because of the talents that he has. >> not just that, the place where i think he would not start on equal footing, literally, i hate to sound boring and nerdy, but on policy. one of perry's problems is a lot of republican activists want specificity and they're saying what is your plan to fix the economy? rick perry says look what i did in texas. that's not a plan for national economic revival, and they have been hampered by the fact they haven't had time to do what a real presidential campaign does, to get working white papers out and have a foreign policy, have a domestic policy, have an economic policy. christie would be starting that much later and you can't make that up on the fly. he doesn't have detailed policies on chinese current is si manipulation. he doesn't know necessarily how detailed foreign policy is. he could get them. i'm not sayinging he couldn't be credible.

but he starts late in that process. you think about bill clinton in '92, he started in october of 1991, officially, but he spent the better part of a year and a half giving important policy speeches at big universities, laying down -- >> he spent 20 years in elected office. >> 20 years. this is the bottom line. >> that's where he'd be behind. >> chris christie understands that i think even i forget sometimes because he's so damn good on the stump, he's so great on his feet, he's so much better than any political candidate i think in america on his feet right now, in debates. >> legal background. >> legal background is great. but what we forget is when the health care debate was going on with tea party members, remember that? that wasn't so far and long ago. two augusts ago. he was still a prosecutor. >> mm-hmm. >> yes. >> chris christie had never been in political office while the health care debate was going on.

he's only been in elected office for a year and a half. less experience than barack obama. >> right. >> when barack obama ran and was woefully ill equipped as far as experience goes to run the largest country in the world, the most powerful country in the world. so, willy, those are the sort of things -- >> his experience is valuable. >> -- that rise up. his lack of experience? again, i'm not knocking him. i'm saying these are the things people are going to look at. wait a second, he hasn't even been in elected office for two years. >> right. is it necessarily true, though, if he passes up this time his moment is gone? will the republican party forgive him for not taking the baton they want to pass to him? >> the party will, but he has to run for re-election in new jersey. he could take a pass on that. history shows your time is there and you take it. and you can't assume it's ever going to come around again. if p he ran, he could be the nominee and he could be president this time. i don't see any circumstances under which he becomes stronger over time. it could happen, but this is a pretty big opening. >> he could easily get the e

re-election as a republican. he won election beating a really weak incumbent. it's a democratic state. he's a republican. he's making lots of enemies right now, whether you think these things are good or not. he's making a lot of political enemies. he could easily not get re-elected, and if he does, he won't be the subject of this clamoring, this cry to get him in. never happen again. >> exactly. so, mika, here is chris christie's biggest problem. >> mm-hmm. >> right now. he's -- he's stuck between a rock and a hard place. first of all, the fact he hasn't been in elected office for even two years. that's on one side of it. on the other side of it, and this sounds like i'm giving conflicting, like, advice, but it's just a reality. his chance is not going to come again. i know that sounds awfully harsh right now. this -- you could go back to dwight eisenhower. no republican, at least, has been clamored after and pulled

at to get into a presidential race since dwight eisenhower in 1952. that will not happen again, because four years from now, if barack obama is elected, it's going to be jeb bush or marco rubio or a very -- the republican bench is extraordinarily strong, unlike the democratic bench. this is chris christie's shot, and yet he may not have the experience to do it. >> herman cain's success shows that people want an outsider. >> herman cain's not going to win anything. >> i actually think about a minute ago you were talking about his lack of experience, and what i would like to say in response to that is i actually haven't seen someone on the political landscape with the ability to cut through the bs and answer questions and take on opponents with the kind of almost tactfulness of an experienced politician. he has this sort of raw

potential that i don't think obama ever brought to the table. so lack of experience, yes, ability to cut through it and get to people, he may have it. i feel bad for him. i don't think he wants it. >> and by the way, mika, also unlike this president, he's extremely strong as a leader. whether you agree with him or not, he is a guy that has bent the arc of history in new jersey. he has shaped events himself. he certainly doesn't defer to speakers of the house for his most important policy agenda. >> right. >> but it's fascinating. willy, you're a new jersey guy. what do you think he's going to do? >> i still don't think he's going to do it. he said over and over again -- i think mika brought up yesterday, when you say i'm not ready for this job, it's hard to back away from. >> how do you back away? >> couple weeks passed. not ready, ready. >> you think he might run? >> about a 30% chance. >> what do you think? >> i think he could run. >> i think he could run. coming up next, former

governor jeb bush joins us for our education nation summit. also this hour, catching hell, a new baseball documentary explores the phenomenal growth of scapegoating in sports. and two men had their lives turned upside down by the academy award winner. "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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welcome back to "morning joe."

we're live from education nation. and joining us now, the former republican governor of florida, governor jeb bush, and the democratic mayor of newark, new jersey, corey booker. both have been on the front lines of education reform and also bipartisanship. we thank you both for being with us this morning. >> governor, you've been fighting this fight since the 1990s. it was really a center piece not only of your campaigns but of your eight years in florida. what gains have we made over the past decade, and what do we need to do to keep the fight moving forward? >> first, we have a long way to go. you benchmark yourself to the great countries of the world on education, we lag behind, and we're not gaining at the pace we need to. >> why not? >> well, because i think there's a complacency, and we haven't implemented across the country in our federalist system harder edge reforms that put pressure on the system particularly with the kids that are lagging behind to push them up. we don't start early enough. we don't have -- we have tolerance for kids that pass

third grade without reading at grade level. we don't create an accountability system around our kids that's focused on student learning. a lot of times it's just about the adults. >> we're running out of time. >> we really are. >> when you look internationally, the competitive nature of the global economy, and you talk about the need and you talk about the velocity of change. how do we speed up the change? how do we speed up the reform? how do we compete in the 21st centu century? >> i think monopolies are well intended in schools. we live in a world where our public sector operates under monopolies. i think we need to open up the monopoly, provide more school choice, to empower teachers, create a system that's much more open using data to make sure the kids don't lag behind and use digital learning. there's lots of ways we could do this, but we need to customize the education system for children and less about the adults and their economic interests. >> corey booker, you've gotten some exciting things started in

your work through the partnerships that you've made and the work that you've done. there are a lot of things happening there that are positive. but i do want to ask the other side of joe's question. where is it that we've fallen back, where we need to regain ground? is it the dropout rate? what is it that is holding us back at this point and perhaps ways in which we have not done our job and we have fallen way behind? >> we've got to start telling the truth, and this is why i appreciate what the governor is saying. the greatest threat to the national security of the united states of america by far is fact that we are not educating our children to prepare and compete and lead in the 21st century economy. and we are a nation -- people need to wake up. the majority of our workforce, kids under 15 years old right now in america, about 45% are minorities. it's a growing boom. the majority of a force will be minority in the country. we have failed to heal the gap.

there's a wonderful study of april of 2009 that said we were imposing a permanent recession on our nation by not healing this, that we are missing out on $1.3 trillion to $2.3 trillion in gdp by our failures in education. this will grow bigger and bigger as a demographic ship. >> but mr. mayor, every prepondera president talks about how he's going to be the education president, every governor talks about reforming education, every mayor talks about doing it locally. why haven't we turned the corner on education reform? let's be blunt. >> it's like having a cancer in our country but the patient has not in any way said that there's a problem. >> what is the cause of that cancer? >> the cause is as you were saying monumental numbers of dropouts in america. we literally have hundreds of thousands -- >> that's the cancer. i want to know what is the cause of that cancer. >> the cause is a lack of focus on those things that make our

economy strong, people not having -- in my city in newark, new jersey, right now there are many, many schools that are taking kids from the most disadvantaged backgrounds and sending them off to college ready to compete and lead. the problem in america is not that we don't have the capacity to educate our kids. it's that we've not mustered the collective will to make the changes necessary. there's a lot of issues. there's no one switch to this. the governor said it himself. we are going to school so much less. we are working so much less harder than our global competitors. simple things like that. expanding the school day. expanding the school year. why are we in america not doing those things? >> i don't know. we have to. >> governor, why is failure not punished? why is success -- >> that's the problem. >> -- not adequately -- why isn't a great teacher that succeeds in the toughest part of newark not paid double of somebody that does well in a comfortable suburb? >> it's three words --

collective bargaining process. >> what does that mean? >> longevity of is service is how you get paid more across the country rather than over time being a great teach they're shows learning games for all types of kids. >> still? >> today in florida that's changing. in indiana it's changing. in certain districts it's changing. but that's the norm. we have low standards. we have low expectations, particularly in the urban areas where we kind of subtly think that some kids can learn and some kids can't. we don't benchmark our standards to the world, although that's changing. we don't provide enough accountability for student, parents and the system itself. so i think we need policy changes to put pressure on the system and support the system and you'll see the results. in florida, our graduation rate in the last 12 years has gone up every year. 've gone from the bottom of the pack in fourth grade reading to sixth. hispanic do better or equal than

31 states. it's happened because there's been systemic change over the long haul. >> there is obviously an economic factor here, and i worry that it plays into some of the buzzwords we've been using or hearing along the way, class warfare developing in this country. what i want to talk about is the division in our society and the danger to our society as it slowly grows. when you have, cory, you were touching on it, so many kids who are dropping out in detroit and across the country, what is this lost generation going to do? and how is that not going to feed into the very divisions in our society that will bring us down in a violent way. and am i being extreme using that -- >> you're not being extreme. people don't realize a black male who does not graduate from high school is more likely to go to prison than have a full-time job. right now if you don't have a high school degree in this economy, you are chaining yourself not to mediocrity but really to economic failure, the inability to compete and succeed and have your part of the american dream. you talk about money, now, look,

money is necessary but not sufficient. again, it's necessary but not sufficient. we all know in public education there's a lot of things going on, but my worry, not just k through 12 but college education, how systems like california's uc system, which was the best higher education system in the globe is going directly down because of lack of investment. we can't be a nation that is says we need to lose weight now, let's cut out a pound of flesh to accomplish it. that's wrong. the best investments we can make are strategic investments in education. again, i agree with the governor. if you're investing in a system that is not working, not using those resources efficiently, i stood in a public school in newark, new jersey, a wonderful school, and the first thing the principal said to me, first day of school, i had to lay off my two top performing teachers because of budget cuts two years ago. >> i don't understand, though. what company -- what company would lay off their two most --

there's not a company that could survive that way. so you tell me why did that happen in that school? >> because we're not putting what's in the best interests of our children -- >> i specifically want -- i'm going to draw it out of you, cory. >> draw it out of me. >> i want to specifically know why would that school cheat the students and fire the two best teachers that that principal had? >> first of all, don't blame it on the school. that principal -- >> i'm waiting for you to blame it on the school. you're being a lot more diplomatic this year than you were last year. i'm just wondering if you've lost a fight with the union. >> no. >> and by the way, i'm not knocking the unions. this is a partnership between teachers, between unions, between students, between parents. everybody shares a responsibility. >> right. >> but you and i both know if the two best teachers were fired because of a collective bargaining agreement -- >> more than a collective bargaining agreement. it's the rule -- we need state legislative changes and our

local collective bargaining -- >> that's a stupid rule. that -- >> stupid is not enough. it's a rule that hurts kids. and that's our simple guiding principle -- what is in the best interests of not unions, not politicians, not parents, even, what's in the best interests of the children in a school to always be what's the guiding principle. this is the problem in our absolutist debates in america. we have a problem with the way we talk to each other. >> right. >> the reason why schools are failing in cities across america is not all the union's fault. >> exactly. >> the reason why schools are failing in america is not all the parents' fall or the politicians' fault. it's not just about blame but a higher level of responsibility. >> are you talking about washington or education at this point? governor, what's your take? >> does the answer come from washington or state by state by state? >> look, i think secretary duncan and president obama deserve credit for putting pressure on states to change,

particularly the states that haven't changed at all. they're providing carrots and sticks. that's appropriate. these things have to happen at the state level for policy changes. if you want last-in, first-out, you have to go to the legislature. florida did that last year. indiana did it. six or seven other states have done it. this is a battle at state capitols to create the openness, then let a thousand flowers bloom. >> right. there has to be a level of activism at state levels, and i'm excited that our head of the education committee in new jersey, a democrat, is on the front lines with governor christie in changing tenure laws and making things better. this does not excuse what's happening on the grassroots level. we in newark in the grassroots community have to focus on what's happening to a child. i did a walk through my community two saturdays ago and found parent who is didn't get their kids to school the first week of school. >> unacceptable. >> at the schoolhouse, there needs to be more responsibility

there. we all have to start doing more. we are lacking the sense of urgency in america around this issue. we don't realize what we're doing now is going to hurt our country. >> that's exactly why we're here. mayor booker, governor bush, thank you so much. >> thank you for working across party lines. >> really great. good to see you guys. stay with us. >> i almost got it out of you. >> we'll be back with more after this. [ cherie ] i always had a job, ever since i was fourteen. i could not make working and going to school work. it was not until the university of phoenix that i was able to work full-time, be a mom, and go to school. the opportunities that i had at the university of phoenix

got me to where i am today. i'm mayor cherie wood, i'm responsible for the largest urban renewal project in utah, and i am a phoenix. [ male announcer ] university of phoenix is proud to sponsor education nation. because we believe an educated world is a better world. [ male announcer ] university of phoenix is proud to sponsor education nation. sun life financialrating should be famous.d bad, we're working on it. so you're seriously proposing we change our name to sun life valley. do we still get to go skiing? sooner or later, you'll know our name. sun life financial. i want healthy skin for life. [ female announcer ] don't just moisturize, improve the health of your skin with aveeno daily moisturizing lotion. the natural oatmeal formula goes beyond 24-hour moisture. it's clinically proven to improve your skin's health

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welcome back to "morning joe." a check on business before the bell. we turn to simon hobbs down at the new york stock exchange. >> good morning to you, mate. looks like we're going to have a bit of a rally at the open today. we had a really good day yesterday for those that are long in the mark. we were up 2.5%. there's a lot of moving parts in europe, but there's a general feeling that we may be moving forward rather than backwards for once. yesterday cnbc reportedly got detail on one of the possible plans they might enact to swell the funds that they have effe

effectively through smoke and mirrors and banking kind of reserve ratios in order to make the money on the table big enough potentially to quell the problems that we have there. so we'll get a rally today. the question is will it be sustained. of course we're coming off a context where we lost 6.5% last week. we just continue with these volatile moves down at the new york stock exchange. >> simon, that's what i want to ask you about. last week you said 6.5% off, huge drops, our heads snapped. you say the marks are back this morning. what are we to believe? are things getting better or is it a temporary break from the madness? >> probably a temporary break from the madness. it would be if europe could have an end stop to what's going on there. we may be working our way towards that, but tonight, for example, angela merkel, the german chancellor, meets with the prime minister of greece. the market believes that they are about to default. if greece does go through default, that ain't going to be pretty, we assume, though potentially containable. personally i think there's a chance they minor league not but

i'm afraid i'm a lone voice in that. >> maybe a good day today but more dark days ahead. simon hobbs at the new york stock exchange, thanks so much. >> have a good day. >> up next, buckner, bartman, household names. a new documentary offers new insight into some of the biggest scapegoats in sports history.

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♪ >> oh my god! >> buckner makes the catch. that was a scene from this past season's "curb your enthusiasm," one of the most famous scapegoats in history, former red sox first baseman bill buckner redeems himself by catching a baby from a burning building. red sox fans dating the curse of this season, this september, back to that clip. >> we have a new buckner curse. >> there it is. >> should have just let it lie. you know what happened it was all larry gavin, not a red sox fan. >> exactly. sabotage. >> buckner known for letting a ground ball cao through his legs in game six of the '86 world series perhaps costing boston a championship. "catching hell" explores the

phenomenon of scapegoating in sports. >> if anyone understands what it means to be a scapegoat, it's bill buckner. for years he became the poster boy for the annual disappointment that haunted new england. but it was more than a metaphor that gnawed at buckner. it was the play itself. for over 20 years he still couldn't understand how he had missed the ball. >> with us now, the director of "catching hell," lifelong red sox fan, academy award winner alex gibney. good to see you. >> great to be here. >> how you doing with the red sox right now? i'm a yankee fan. not rubbing it in. how are you coping with the september? >> i made an appointment with my psychiatrist, prepared to seek intervention. >> have you gotten complacent? you said we won the two world series. so what? >> the fact is it's a lot easier now after 2004 and 2007. if this was happening in 2003 then i might really be in trouble. >> okay. we talk a lot about buckner there, but really the film focuses on steve bartman,

another of the most famous scapegoats. 2003 nlcs, for those people who don't remember the play, walk our viewers through what happened here. >> well, the chicago cubs were seemingly on their way to the world series and they were five outs away and this long, lazy fly ball goes to the stands, and just as moises alou looks like he's about to make a catch, a group of fans, notably one fan, a kid we would later know to be steve bartman, reaches out and touches it. and from that moment, everybody imagined that that was some kind of evil pact with the fates that suddenly turned everything against chicago, bauds in the blink of an eye after that chicago was suddenly losing 8-3. >> and the response was ugly in some quarters. you have one of the fans who rushed down and poured a beer on his head. had to be escorted out by security. you bring some new information to light here about that

security guard and what actually happened that night with bartman. >> well, i mean, what brought me -- one of the things that brought me to this film was this incredible footage of him being just pelted. it really did look like his life was in some danger. and the comments we heard are really ugly. but he was rescued, you know, after the game by this woman named rebecca who was a security guard who actually to prevent him from being trampled by a group of fans who spotted him in disguise outside of wrigley brought him to her apartment, you know, until things calmed down and they could slowly guide him home. >> you say inside that apartment he flipped on espn and it started to set in about what he was in for. >> it's unclear exactly what he knew or wasn't aware of. i think he heard on the headset, everybody remembers that he was wearing these headphones, that somebody was responsible, and i think it really didn't dawn on him that he was the guy until he started looking at himself over and over and over again and realized, oh, my god, the whole town is after me. >> true cubs will tell you steve

bartman is not the reason they lost that game. he probably shouldn't have interfered with the ball, but after that happened alex gonzalez boots a double-play ball that would have gotten them out of the inning. what did you find eight years removed about how the city is feeling about bartman? >> i think the city is still haunted by it, to be honest with you. i think, you know, the true baseball fans do know it. i think there are a lot of people who still do blame him. but i think one of the things the film tries to do is to get at just how the scapegoat process happened. what is the weird thing that makes us want to find one person to blame, you know, just like buckner in '86 but bartman here, oh, yeah, it was that guy. i think the fact that he was a fan probably also intensified. it was like he was one of us and he screwed up. the fact was about 12 people were all reaching for the ball. bartman was not alone. the guy who ended up with the ball, the guy who ended up with it is holding it aloft, really proud, not throwing it back on the field. >> right.

john, it's been amaze how steve bartman has remained completely out of sight. he's been asked to do super bowl commercials. he could have made millions off this. hasn't said a word and would not be in this film with alex. >> i'm curious. obviously, he declined to be interviewed by you on camera. i prepresume you had off camera interaction. do you think he's psychologically damaged by this whole thing? to the extent you know, what is his mental state with regard to this and how he feels about what he did in the city of chicago? >> it's really hard to know. his lawyer will tell you he's happy, it's fine, all good, and he has a number of really loyal defenders, because we went in to some of his co-workers who said, look, we're respecting steve's wishes, he wants to remain out of the limelight. he's just determined to do it. i do think based on what i know that he was deeply haunted by what happened that night. i think that really freaked him out. as to what he's like today, i think he's just determined that he doesn't want to do it and now it's like a pledge to himself that he's not coming forward.

>> what was his disguise? >> they dressed him up as a security guard and they switched out his hat and they -- he had the kind of white windbreaker. >> i was thinking nose and glasses. >> somebody spotted him from across the street even in that disguise. he said there he is, and they come running after him and then rebecca and these other folks took off and went into her apartment. >> you went deep on this. you did a whole cgi re-creation of the play and found what? that he -- alou could have caught the ball? >> there's no doubt alou could have caught the ball. i mean, he wasn't a great fielder but one of the reasons he was so mad, and i think alou starts the recrimination toward bartman because he looks at him, has a hissy fit and is pointing him out. one of the reasons he was so upset is in a rare moment he actually did leap right, his glove was there, and we take everybody else away except for

bartman and alou and it's pretty clear that unless he had, you know -- it dropped out of his glove he would have caught the ball. >> i hate to bring this back to the red sox, but you think about buckner, you know, i mean, he didn't have the option of bartman. bartman could become anonymous. bill buckner never had that option. and the fact this that buckner seems, as witnessed by "curb" episode, he's borne up to it with extraordinary fortitude. he had no choice, but he seemed like a relatively good humored about it throughout his career, living with that curse from red sox fans for so long. >> i think it ate at him. >> i know. >> every time, you know, the world series would come around every year, the buckner play would be highlighted. and it took him a long time to forgive boston and come back and throw out the first ball. it was 2008. a moment we include in the film because it's very poignant. you can see the emotion well up in him. >> exacerbated by fact those two cities are baseball crazy. >> yes.

>> and hadn't won in a long time. i think that is the key thing. it's like you're haunted by this idea. it's like the myth of sisyphus or something. you're going to roll that boulder up and as soon as you get to the top it will roll back down. >> and through your legs. >> that's right. >> over you and through your legs. >> the cubs are still sitting on 1908. i don't think it will be until they win they'll forgive bartman. the film looks great. it airs tonight on espn. "catching hell," 8:00 tonight on espn. up next, the best of late night. an accident doesn't have to slow you down.

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here's what i'd like to do for you, and i've worked in this business a long time, congressman. i think i know what i could do to bring some attention. your look, the consistency of your positions, have you tried something like this? there you go. you know, they all seem to love chris christie. so i thought maybe if you did something like that. but maybe this more than any other look i think might be the way to go. there you go. have you thought of anything along the lines of that, changing your look? >> been thinking about maybe you'll generate some good ideas.

not sure i'm going to follow the advice you just showed me. >> they had a straw poll in florida and the winner of the straw poll, not mitt romney, not rick perry, the two front-runners. former godfather ceo herman cain. i think his focus is right on. even his campaign ads. they don't come on too strong and try to scare you. and the message they send is positive for once. >> unemployment. deficits. economic decline. mshg isamerica is a failing natn and there's nothing we can do about it. so might as well eat pizza! pizza is delicious and can help take america's mind off our inevitable decline and fall. and if i'm president, i'll borrow a trillion more dollars from china and spend it all on delicious free pizza. one final pizza blowout! what do you say, america? herman cain -- let's just give up and order pizza. >> paid for by mitt romney.

>> republican presidential candidates gathered in florida for the fox news google debate, the 83rd such debate so far this year. following, of course, the previous week cnn tea party debate, reagan debate, the history channel reck reasianist debate, the tron debate, the are you afraid of the dark debate and the don't tell rick santorum we're canceling the debate debate. santorum still came in fifth. things aren't going his way. >> put together a segment called rick perry, rick perry had some trouble in the most recent debate. rick perry rambling man. take it away. ♪ >> is it the mitt romney that was on the side of against the second amendment before he was for the second amendment? was it before he was before the social programs from the

standpoint of he was for standing up for roe versus wade before he was against roe versus wade? he was for race to the top. ♪ >> rick perry, ramblin iman. it's like i have a twin. ♪ ♪ ♪ three, six, nine ♪ the goose drank wine ♪ the monkey chew tobacco on the streetcar line ♪ ♪ ♪ clap, pat, clap your hand ♪ pat it on your partner's hand ♪ ♪ right hand ♪ clap, pat, clap your hand ♪ cross it with your left arm ♪ pat your partner's left palm ♪ clap, pat, clap your hand, pat your partner's right palm ♪ [ male announcer ] the all-new beetle. it's back.

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time to el you what we learned today. mark halperin. >> joe scarborough, not seen here, has given up on the red sox but i haven't. >> you should not give up on the red sox. >> crazy. >> two-game season right now. >> big fan of the huntsman family, mary huntsman, wonderful woman, a little screwy in the head. for a minute she thought she wanted to introduce her daughters to louis. >> what a horrible mistake that woulhave been. >> crisis averted. >> luckily, after that, they would have made their own decision and gone the other way. see you back here tomorrow. stick around for "the daily rundown" with chuck todd. if it walks like a candidate and quacks like a