shout out to former ray, thanks for staying loyal to tampa, buddy. >> that was a fitting end to carl crawford's terrible season in baseball. "morning joe" starts right now. here comes crawford, can't make the catch, the throw to the plate will be off the mark! and the orioles walk off with the win. the red sox lose in a crucial 162nd game of the year! >> deep to left field, it is a home run! a home run! the rays are going to the playoffs. a walk-off home run by evan longoria, right down the line, inside the foul ball, and the rays win 8-7! >> alas, there is no joy in redville for the mighty casey

struck out. and carl crawford, he just out and out sucks. >> holy cow, willie geist. >> can we trade him yet? >> we're going to. no, i think, they will, especially after last night, missing a catch that most baseball players in the s.e.c. would've made. i'm serious. welcome to "morning joe," i'm joe scarborough, visibly anguished who stayed up until 11:17 last night to see without a doubt, and mike barnicle and i after we got past the funeral march music both agreed, barnicle was down in baltimore. last night, make no mistake of it, and barnicle agrees and he's been alive 120 years, and the 120 years of major league baseball last night was the greatest night of major league baseball for a regular season. it's never come down to this.

but this morning, of course, we have to wake up, and it's thursday, september 29th. donny deutch is with us, and sam stein of the huffington post, and pat buchanan. i want to go to you first, willie, and then we'll go to sam. i doubt we'll be talking any news today. i'm joking, i'm joking! i want to get this out. first of all, i'm going to talk about how horrific it is. this really is as bad as -- last night and last month, as bad as any month in red sox nation. it's certainly as bad as 2003, which was horrific. >> definitely. >> it's as bad as 1986, which for me is still the absolute worst, 1986 and the mets and the collapse. but also, of course, 1978, 1967,

you go back. but willie, what's your take on the night overall? i've never seen anything like it in major league baseball. i'm following four scores, it was stunning. >> flipping around with the remote control the way you do in the first three days of the ncaa tournament, it's that exciting, except you're not as invested in the teams. it's your teams, or it's the team you've been rooting against all year, the yankees, the red sox, the braves, the phillies, the cardinals, it was as exciting as it gets. and i have to say, the season may be not just for carl crawford, but the month of september for the red sox embodied in that last play. >> the last play. >> you have to lay out for that ball. if you catch it, you're good. if it falls in either way, you lose the game. >> and this is what we're talking about, carl crawford just sort of lazily lounges to

get the ball. that is a season on the line, and if you show a slow-mo, you can see the guy didn't reach out for it. hep didn't give it all. after stealing $20 million plus from the red sox this year for absolutely horrific season. he then, really sam stein, you're a red sox fan. >> yes. >> were you still there at that point? or did you leave with the rain delay? >> well, we stayed through the rain delay to watch tampa bay tie it up on a little ipad monitor. and the crowd sort of collectively groaned. and then we thought, well, let's book it out of here and try to catch the end of the games on tv. i think you're being too tough on crawford. there was something cosmic going on the past two weeks. >> cosmic? what's going on here, captain kirk.

>> you're going to blame crawford when, in fact, let's go back an inning before when big poppi's up, nobody's out, you can get an insurance run, and look, he's got two strikes, two outs, he throws one right down the middle for a double. there's a million what-ifs that happen. why is it cosmic? look at dan johnson. unbelievable starter, hitting .105 in the last at bat at the season, .105, one home run, puts one in the right field corner that somehow curls -- >> twice. twice. the red sox were one strike away from avoiding it, donny. >> yes. >> and twice, their best pitcher at the end papelbon gives up hits. >> three words -- >> gives up back-breaking hits. >> with a lot of soul searching

there are three words. red sox suck. they just do. >> oh. here's the deal, okay! here's the deal. you fight the good fight, okay? >> i come on this show -- >> the morning after -- show a little class. >> and i've got to hear about the little team that could about -- and they suck, it's that simple. the red sox suck, okay? having said that, let me go a little deeper, a little more analytical. >> that's the theme. >> can you cut this guy's mike? >> what i find fascinating, and this is what makes baseball the greatest sport in the world. how are you, mike barnicle, the morning after, i wish you were here. it is so amazing somehow something overtakes a team. how you go how can they not win? they're playing crappy teams down the line, with nothing on the line. what happens in the air to a team? also atlanta braves, same thing, up by eight games, that takes

over their psyche. it is a mental game as much as a physical game. >> well, they start to get tentative too. he was tentative. carl crawford last year when he was playing great outfield and great bat, he would've caught that ball. he just didn't look right out there and felt that way at the plate. >> it's interesting, compared to television, and this show is a show that the ratings are great and it keeps rocking. you come on and have a swagger about you versus if you were coming on -- >> donny, you get a swagger at funerals. >> no, that's part of success. if you're doing a show, you don't know if you're going to be canceled and you're not taking chances playing the way you're supposed to -- playing to win. >> you've seen it with sports teams time and time again. the sox were tentative, people who saw them playing live talked about how they drug out of the dugout. willie, you saw this, they

dragged back into the dugout. and let's talk about the rays. the rays had seven of their last ten games this year were with -- against the new york yankees. >> right. >> 7 of the red sox' last 10 games were the baltimore orioles. and that's why red sox fans knew even though the sox may not deserve it, they would make it into the playoffs. because they had everything going in their favor, and yet with everything going for them and everything going against the rays, the rays had an extraordinary september run. and the red sox just embarrassed themselves. >> joe, i go back a long way. it reminds me the old brooklyn dodgers had their 15-game lead against the giants. the dodgers didn't go into the tank. but at the end of that season, the two of them came up against each other in the last game, and bobby thompson put it out there the three-run homer against one

of the great plays in baseball. but the dodgers didn't quit. they just sort of collapsed. but it was that kind of exciting finish, the last day of the season, and it took the giants into the pennant and the series. >> yeah, they did not collapse. the boston red sox' sam stein did collapse. >> yeah. >> and rate this, you were born a red sox fan, grew up a red sox fan, i've been a sox fan since '75. write this and then we'll turn on to news. write this in terms of heart breaks. >> of hurts. in terms of stomach pain. >> of heart -- yeah, stomach pain and sort of rick perry vomiting all over yourself type stomach pain. rank this among the hurts you've heard your parents and everybody else talk about. >> for me, the sort of seminal stomach punch moment was always aaron boone in 2003. and it was just -- i'd been watching the game, sitting with

my friends, several innings past the ninth innings and boom, it was over, it just hurt. this was -- i felt almost worse because it was for two straight weeks watching, waiting for the shoe to drop, just knowing that one sox pitcher, usually daniel bard was going to come in and screw things up. and you had a sense there was something going on here where the team was tightening up, where they sensed that they were going to lose this lead. and it was watching a prolonged train wreck. >> it was. >> and i have to say this, in some respects, the fact they didn't win the game and go into a playoff was almost a relief for me. i'd also like to say thanks to joe girardi. >> you're blaming joe girardi? >> up 7-0 in the eighth. 7-0. >> you going to waste your best

reliever when the playoffs were two days away. he needed to stay fresh. you think this is worse for red sox fans -- >> no, not even close. i was about to say. >> that was worse. 2003, i've got to say 2003 was absolutely awful. for me, '86 is the worst. and will remain the worst. >> one more great thing about baseball. >> then let's go. and we'll get to polls. >> in baseball, you don't get to pick who is up at the plate in the big moment. in basketball, you give the ball to michael jordan or kobe bryant, dan johnson comes to the plate hitting .108 and hits a home run. >> and joe girardi did not pitch -- >> please, please. >> that is a sad, sad footnote. >> i have to go on something. >> in this epic baseball moment, that one coach just -- no, listen -- >> i didn't get the patriot score against buffalo this past sunday.

>> what is this? >> that's impossible. that's impossible. so finally, i want to follow up, though, on the last thing about baseball. you and i have played a lot of sports. >> yeah. >> and there are some sports like golf, especially, it's 95% mental. when you know you can put it close to the cup, you put it close to the cup. and when you can't, good night. basketball, the same thing, when you're hot shooting, you're hot shooting, and you can't miss anything. football, not so much. football. but baseball is one of those games. >> yeah. >> where when you get up to the plate and you know you're going to get a hit, they can throw you the best splitter, and you're going to get a hit. and that seemed to catch on with the rays. >> that was longoria last night. >> that was longoria. yeah, the worst minute in regular season baseball history for the boston red sox. >> yeah. >> and for those of you who

don't know, what made this more like a movie, think about it, 162 games, this started back in february when the pitchers and catchers reported here we are now september 28th last night and it all ended in one minute. >> minute. >> literally one minute the red sox lose, one minute later, the ball goes over the left field fence. >> let me say something because people criticize baseball as a sport a lot of time. but no other sport has this type of dramatic arch. and we follow this game throughout the course of the summer, follow the teams, get to like them, get to know them. we develop this narrative that comes in there. september, like yesterday was one of the greatest days of sport watching that anyone could ever have. >> amen. >> of course, all my teams lost, but -- and for the red sox, what a horrific season. it started horribly, ended horribly, in the middle you thought they were the best team in baseball for four months. and that's the thing about baseball. and they were for about four

months, willie, the best team in baseball. >> absolutely. >> you were thinking other than the phillies, nobody can touch this team. and donny is a jerk. and seriously when my team wins, and you know this, when they win the big one, i keep my head down and never say a word because my team just talked for me. but donny -- >> that's not his way. >> that's not -- >> let new put it another way. red sox -- >> all right. okay. let's go pat buchanan, talk about the 2012 presidential race. a new fox poll showing romney back in the lead and rick perry's support has collapsed. look at these numbers ask then we'll pass it around the rest of the table. romney at 23%, picked up one over the past month. rick perry at 19% has dropped precipitously losing a third of his support going from 21% to 19%. a big shock here, cain actually

helped by the florida straw poll. so i guess for people right now, it did mean something, cain up 11 at 17%, paul 6%. bauchman, i've got to say, about as fast of a drop as i've seen since the iowa straw poll, and rick santorum at 3%. pat buchanan, let's talk headlines first. rick perry, the horrible week is starting to show up in polls here, 19%. >> well, he's in real trouble, joe. i think perry's got to go out and win iowa or he's going to lose it. and if romney can go out and win iowa, i think it's all over because romney will go from iowa straight into new hampshire and win that. what's happened here. >> pat, let me stop you quickly. neither you nor i would believe that romney could win iowa a month ago. yet mitt romney's performances and debates picking up support even in iowa, a new gop field

iowa poll shows him at 21% ahead of michele bauchmann by six points, rick perry by 7%, ron paul by 9%. those are a pretty stunning turn around for romney. >> a dramatic turn around, joe, and opens a door for romney to go in and shut this whole thing down if he can either win iowa or loses and runs second say lose to someone who cannot go the distance against him. i think he's in the seat, and the reason is, the tea party's been acting pretty much like that gal that's resissiting an arranged marriage. from palin to trump to michelle to perry and to cain now and chris christie. and they've been going -- but now, the road is wide open for mitt romney, i think not only to the nomination as of now, but straight to the white house. >> sam stein, what a difference a few weeks make.

>> yeah. >> and specifically, let's put up that fox news poll again. what a difference a week makes, actually, for rick perry. have you ever seen a candidate other than michele bauchmann drop precipitously as perry? >> it's remarkable. and we tend to sort of -- i don't know, the debate performance, it's tough to gauge what sort of effect that has. but it was clearly a terrible debate performance for him. this gets more to the fluidity of the field. people aren't comfortable or happy -- especially with mitt romney. his numbers are staying pretty steady around lower 20s. i think that's sort of the baked in number for him until we actually get to voting. theoretically, i don't think it's going to happen. but theoretically, if sarah palin or chris christie could be looking at this and say, oh, i can jump in, get an unbelievable amount of media coverage, build up an incredible amount of support over a short period of

time and sustain it for a little bit. it's a real invitation. >> there's the trick. all i have to do is sustain it. sarah palin would get into the race, pat buchanan and she would be savaged. chris christie would get in the race and he would find it's much more exciting on this side of the line than the other side of the line. >> exactly. >> i suspect the same thing would happen to both of them. >> i think that's exactly right. and you've got to realize that mitt's been out there for four years building organization in state after state so he's got a fall-back position. take christie and these other fellas, suppose they do well, they would have to depend on momentum to run them through the whole race, and i don't know that you can do that. and i think, again, they would split the tea party right which is divided about seven different ways. >> if i'm mitt romney, donny, i love where i am right now. i love this slow, steady build. he's a professional, he's been

there for eight years. >> i think what's happened to romney is his brand. it's gone from boring to competent. quiet competency. there's a competency, whether it's the debates, his organization. people all along going mitt romney, mitt romney -- competency. and it's not a sexy word, but very appealing word. and i think that's what's coming across for him. and the second thing -- >> whether it's ad campaigns or presidential races, contrast is what matters the most. especially if you're taking on the incompetent. and you match the competency against what a lot of business people, a lot of former obama supporters are saying about this president. that's an even stronger -- okay. you know what? he's not sexy. i'm never going to scream for this guy -- i'm not going to shout. we tried that in 2008. >> the other thing interesting, even the issue that everybody thought he was going to get caught up on, the romney care,

33% of the voters say, i don't care, they're voting for the guys. speaking of guy, you look at sarah palin's camp, herb cain, she calls him, i love that. 17%, that bodes well for chris christie. what people like about him, he's not, he's outside, he's different. that's the vote for i don't want one of these guys, which if i'm chris christie i go, wow -- >> there's a big difference if you're cain than if you're mitt romney -- i mean if you're chris christie. chris christie could be -- thinks he could be president of the united states one of these years. and i just don't think he's going to take this chance, especially the way things shake out for these other contenders. >> not this time around. and the word you hear a lot from mitt romney is solid. while on one side someone talking about the fed chairman being treasonous, on the other side, someone saying the hpv

vaccine leads to mental retardation, he's solid, talking about jobs. we're going to be talking more about this and much more. but coming up this morning, ken burns is here, a red sox fan. i'm sorry, we may have to rebook on that one. yeah, i don't know if he's going to make it here. actually he'll be here. and he's got an amazing documentary on prohibition, amazing film. later, academy award winner goldie haun, and lindsey buckingham will be here. but first, here's a check on the forecast. >> let's get to the radar and show you that cold front moving to the east is another day of showers and thunderstorms and mild temperatures, starting out in the 60s and 70s. we don't move much from there this afternoon. bring the umbrella along. more "morning joe" after this.

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25 past the hour. i know you guys like to shake it up and be loose. but 15 minutes on the red sox is too much. >> not even close to it. >> we'll go to our parade of papers next. dallas morning news. dallas morning news, the obama administration has asked the supreme court to hear a case concerning the 2010 health care overhaul law. the development makes it all but certain that the court will soon agree to hear at least one challenge to the law. a decision could come by june, smack in the middle of the 2012 presidential campaign. and the "tampa tribune," nothing happening in the tampa area, but reebok going to be paying $25 million to customers who bought the popular easy tone sneakers. part of the settlement -- what did they do? kill people? >> advertising scum.

>> accused the company of making deceptive ad campaigns. promising users stronger legs, a better butt, and a 120-year life span. boy, never saw that one coming. >> "new york times," did you see this story? jose reyes bunted for a single inning yesterday and was immediately pulled from the game. he asked to be pulled from the game because that hit held his average steady at .337, and he secured the battle title. a controversial move to leave the game. afterward, mets manager terry collins got emotional when asked about it. >> i've heard some comments in the stands and i don't blame them. people pay a ticket -- people pay a good price to come to these games and they've got to understand that i ask these players to do a lot. we overcame a lot of stuff, as i told them inside.

and they play hard, that's all i could ask. >> oh, please. as a new yorker, i'm going to say, boo. ted williams was batting .400, could've sat out the last game went 6 for 8. you're a baseball player, you don't not play to keep an average. >> jose reyes told the manager, take me out of the game if i get a hit in the first at bat. collins didn't make that decision, it came from reyes. as you said, ted williams, 70 years ago yesterday could've sat -- played two games. >> he asked if he wanted to hit -- >> what message does that send out? i'm a met fan, that stinks. >> stop it with the baseball. >> that is just pathetic. >> back page of "the daily news," batting chump -- >> it's time for politico. >> bonds and exits, that is

terrible. >> let's go to politico now. the political playbook hosted by the editor -- >> can we stay on baseball for one second. reyes in doing that got the battle title over brawn at milwaukee. you talk -- all you ever talk about are east coast teams. you're so east coast focused. this is a place called america, and there's a team called the milwaukee brewers. >> where are they? >>. >> they're in the playoffs, baby, first time since '82. >> interesting, playoffs. >> you might not know that from reading the "new york times." >> what aaa club? >> the brewers? >> milwaukee brewers. >> the brew crew. >> the brewers and the diamond backs. >> by the way, jim, your guy did play, 0 for 4. >> you know what, though? he's batting champ in our home. what a great player, braun. >> anita perry talked in iowa

about what it's like to be in a presidential campaign. pretty interesting. >> he's been the longest serving governor in texas, and i've never seen anything like this. the intensity and the scrutiny and every little thing you say and everything in your history, and that was really one drawback that we really discussed openly. >> how is she adjusting to her new role according to politico? >> undoubtedly a much bigger role for her. she was not a big presence in the debates in texas. she is in this campaign. doing events, fund-raising pitches. she's about to feel the heat even more today. we've got this great piece in there and there's an anecdote where she's speaking in texas and says i won't be a barbara bush, i won't be a laura bush. meaning they were more liberal when it came to social issues. she will not be. i imagine that will pick at the scab between the bush operation and the perry operation.

so there's no doubt it's different. and by thrusting herself into it, she has to go into that scrutiny. >> jim, is she more like an eisenhower? >> we don't know exactly what her role is going to be in the campaign other than -- there was a debate, asked what are you going to bring to the white house? everyone's talking about michele bauchmann talked about the declaration of independence, and he talked about bringing my wife and what an asset she would be. they're trying to make her more of a part of it. >> was there ever a question as to whether he was bringing his wife to the white house? or whether they have the constitution in the white house? >> now, you stop it. >> i bet they've already got one. why wouldn't he bring his wife? >> they have to go down to the basement, they have it in storage -- >> what's the thing you treasure most that you're going to bring to the white house. >> was that the question? >> yeah. >> well, of course, he's going to bring his wife.

why wouldn't he bring his wife? >> hey, jim, you guys had that piece up on politico saying the perry campaign is not changing today. does that change at all showing the poll that he's dropped ten points in a month. >> they have to hit a good fund-raising number when that report comes out. and they have got to get him operating better in the debate settings. he's still the odds on favorite alternative to mitt romney. but he's in fragile footing right now. no doubt his performance in florida both in the debate and in that straw poll have people rethinking his electability. and that's the last thing he wants. he has to change that perception and i think change it quickly or it could change the contours of the election. >> all right. >> thank you, jim. >> by the way -- >> thanks for keeping us on track. >> all right. >> $20 million. that's impressive. >> he'll bring his wife and some money. >> $20 million. coming up, john stewart and

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♪ live shot of capitol hill at 36 past the hour. welcome back to "morning joe." a quick look at the news. touting himself as the education mayor and following the dmissal of kathy black, bloomberg is getting criticism. according to the latest college poll, 41% of new york city voters approve of the mayor's decision while 48% disapprove, that's up from march when 27% gave him approval. the mayor's numbers were much stronger back in 2009 when 53% approved of his education plans. >> huh. >> we'll keep watching. >> it's time now for sports. we need to cut this short. >> we're cutting it down.

we're cutting it down. for those of you -- >> i'll never been late again. >> there was a long rain delay in baltimore. red sox game returns about an hour and a half, something like that. red sox hanging on to a one-run lead in the final inning papelbon striking out the first two guys, then leads one up, gives one to chris davis. that tied the game to three. so with the game tied and the season on the line, sorry, you've got to make this play carl crawford, a lazy drive to left field, crawford can't make the play, his throw home is late, baltimore beats the red sox, 4-3. we go down to st. petersburg, florida, the fans after the rays have come back from 7-0 to tie the score see on the score board the red sox have lost, so if they win, they go to the playoffs. evan longoria, about 3 1/2 minutes after this run crosses

the plate for baltimore, it's a solo walk-off home run. >> for the rays, it's a movie, for rays fans, it's an unreal movie you can't believe. >> especially if you're down 7-0. >> i've got mike barnicle on the phone. he's slurring his words. sorry, mike. >> here's some red sox reaction last night. >> what do you expect my reaction to be? >> whatever you want to say. >> i mean, you know, we just lost -- what -- what -- how am i supposed to answer that? >> what are you feeling? disappointme disappointment, frustration, sadness, shock, let it set in? >> yeah, all of the above. >> i don't even know how to explain it. this is -- this is -- this may

be the worst situation i've been involved in in my whole career. you know, and it's -- >> i'm probably not going to be able to do a good job of explaining it right now. we try to stay in the moment so much. what happened three weeks ago or whatever, you know, the mess we got ourselves in. and we just needed to take care of business today, and we didn't. >> that might have been terry francona's last press conference with the red sox. >> it was. i thought papelbon was particularly eloquent. >> how do you feel? answer the question. >> just shut up. >> you shut up. >> you shut up. >> rays' manager joe madden tweeted last night and thanked the orioles for not quitting in their game against boston. he said i can't express enough gratitude for their incredible

professionalism. we don't do this without their respect for the game. so here's the -- >> by the way, can i say following up on that? the orioles ran out like they won the american league championship. they were playing -- a gutty performance, 30 games under .500, still trying in complete contrast to a certain new york met who phoned it in. >> and that's a tribute to the manager. tomorrow night tampa bay goes to texas to play the rangers, last night, the cardinals won big, the braves losing an extra inning. >> unbelievable. >> the playoffs look this way. >> and we've completely shortchanged the braves here. their collapse, every bit as shocking as the red sox. >> they were up 8 1/2 on the wild card, red sox up 9, so the braves lose in the ninth to extra innings. >> gets no worse. [ male announcer ] school art supplies, black pants,

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andy rooney's leaving "60 minutes," and i hate to say this, it might be time. did you see him sunday? take a look. >> now, andy rooney. >> that's right. me every night. >> oh, i love andy. >> you'll really miss him. >> oh, no -- >> you will miss him. >> we're going to go see him. >> he loves you. he probably won't want to talk to me, though.

>> he always makes fun of my shoes. and he's right. okay. so time now for the must-read opinion pages. why conservatives hate warren buffett. this is in the "washington post." and he writes in part this. maybe only a really, really rich guy can credibly make the case for why the wealthy should be asked to pay more in taxes. you can't accuse a big capitalist of class warfare. that's why the right wing despises warren buffett. militant conservatives are effective because they are absolutely shameless. unlimited sums influencing our politics without having to disclose anything are now asking buffett to make his tax returns public. i guess if you were indifferent to consistency, you have a lot of freedom of action. >> speaking of being indifferent to consistency, go back and see his columns when george bush was president and barack obama was president.

there you'll find one of the most inconsistent columnists. i like e.j., but he just -- he changes every couple of years depending on who's in the white house. on this warren buffett front, i don't hate warren buffett. i like warren buffett. i love the story, he's lived in the same house since 1963. >> a good message. >> it was slow and steady as they go. when the tech world was booming, he kept his head down and kept getting 3%, 4%, i like warren buffett a lot. >> do they hate him? >> but i've been very critical of him because you will get millionaires and billionaires going, mr. president, i'll pay more taxes. first of all, nobody is stopping them from paying more taxes and secondly, they have a fleet. and it's fine. it's their right. they have a fleet of lawyers and accountants and trust attorneys working around the clock to shelter their income. so they don't have to pay taxes. which is fine, that is your right as an american. but if you're going to work and your people are going to work

around the clock to not pay taxes, please, don't come out at the same time going, hey, raise my taxes. knowing pat buchanan cynically that even if they raise the top rate to 39.6%, warren buffett will still be paying 18% of his income in taxes while people who make far, far, far less than him will be the ones stuck holding the tab. >> you know, it's -- i tend to think he's a bit of a hot dog, joe. i really want to pay more taxes and my secretary pays more than i do. why doesn't he pay her taxes and why doesn't he tell himself -- why doesn't he pay at the rate he could pay. pay at 35%. >> just pay 35%. if you think the bush tax cuts are immoral and too low, then instead of paying 18% of your taxes, pay 35% of your taxes. this reminds me of jim baker going out -- not george h.w. bush's jim baker, but

televangelist preaching every night about morality. while he's doing what he's doing. you can't have it both ways. >> there's a lot of -- i know some folks close to my family had five or six kids, making a couple hundred grand, looking at college expenses. and here's warren buffett saying raise their taxes because i'm a moral hero. i think conservatives feel it and e.j. too, i do a class with him every year. but i think conservatives feel passion and anger about this type of stuff going on by the super rich. >> sam stein, i think the whole tax debate's a scam. when we've talked about raising taxes, we've got to have tax reform, we've got to close the loopholes to make sure that people like buffett don't pay 18%. but i don't hate warren buffett, but can you not at least see how some of us might think it's hypocritical on one hand for him

to say raise our taxes, yet he fights around the clock to pay less than everybody else? >> well, i think we're having two conversations here. one is a very personal conversation about warren buffett and his income. and the other is a about the contract as a society. if we're going to chip away at entitlement programs, then we need to talk about what contributions the upper echelons of society make. from a journalistic standpoint, it's fascinating to see this debate play out because you have this whole ticking time bomb of this super committee, the winding down clock, which is tasked with finding $1.5 trillion. i don't think there's enough time for them to consider comprehensive tax reform. but from conversations i'm having, you get the sense they're going to try to lay the framework for after they report to be done on what you're talking about. closing loopholes, lowering corporate rates and closing

those loopholes and changing the tax code. >> you know, i think since he's made such an issue with this, i do hope he pays all of his secretaries' taxes. they've become tools in this conversation. >> i'm not saying this facetiously, you worked hard your whole life, sold your company, and made gobs and gobs of money. can you explain to people out there -- and i don't even understand this. can you explain how the super rich like warren buffett and others, can you explain of what so much of your business does is geared toward not paying the 35% tax rate that people who make $250,000 -- >> not all businesses are geared that way. it's just investment income basically non-working income that so many of the wealthiest is taxed differently. i don't think you can -- >> but donny, it's not just that -- if you buy a private jet this year, there are so many scams out there. by the way, the president

himself supported this. but let me say this, there are so many scams out there. for instance, if you buy a private jet this year, the depreciation schedule is such that you will fly it free for three or four years. >> i don't think any bright person -- and there needs to be dramatic tax reform. i'm the one who comes on this show all the time and says raise the taxes. it's not a question. warren buffett is operating within the law. the laws need to change. the tax reform needs to happen. >> we'll be right back with willie -- >> do you think he should pay 35% taxes? >> no question. >> news you can't use up next.

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oh, yes, is it time? >> yeah, time for a little news you can't use. jon stewart and bill o'reilly, last night, the game was at the "daily show." >> this whole idea that somehow the tax burden would become so onerous on us that we would just rather not take home $3 million if we can't get that $3.5 million, [ bleep ]. you know what i mean? that's crazy talk. and you know it.

>> i don't mind paying 40%. but first they're going to have to stop wasting the money. the $16 muffin. do we all know what the $16 muffin is? >> what? what neighborhood do you live in? who makes a $16 muffin? >> this is great. i'm glad. look, $16 muffin, broke the story last week on the factory, you were otherwise occupied. making your little wise remarks, not reading what's happening. they had a bunch of conferences for pinheads, federal governments, and they ordered 250 muffins at $16 apiece. >> that's a lot for a muffin. >> and you know what? i paid for the muffin and so did you. >> i understand that. i understand that. are you familiar with wall street? >> no. because there's this idea --

>> is that run by the federal government? not yet. >> no, it's not. but interestingly enough, they had a little problem that added up to what i believe is more than, what's $16 times 250 muffins? >> i want efficiency and honesty in all areas. >> you and i are agreeing here. >> simpatico. >> you know, when you speak a foreign language, it is oddly arousing. >> they're good together. they're good together. >> wow. >> $16 muffin. >> the accusation that they were $16 muffins. the truth of it is, you get a muffin, continental breakfast, and rental to the space. little more to the story. >> that's what these guys do. >> come on, you and your white watch, go on to the green room. >> also ken burns will be here. we'll be right back.

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it's the jewishyear, and that means somewhere out on the campaign trail republican presidential candidate michele bauchmann is mispronouncing -- >> because he has a lot of -- >> that's right, thank you very much. >> welcome back to "morning joe." live look at the white house. donny deustch.

>> now we can talk about the national league wild card. >> -- except red sox, which i'm very sad about. but you guys, seriously overdid it and don't start. we're going to do news this hour. >> you and your white watch can leave. >> you know what? red sox suck. >> there we go again! >> i still love them. >> and now for another perspective, let's go to sam stein in washington, d.c. what say you? >> the red sox do suck. >> and now let's go to the news, and for that we turn to mika brzezinski. what do we have? >> politics now. a new fox news poll shows mitt romney back in the lead of his fellow gop presidential hopefuls as support for rick perry slides. romney leads all candidates with 23% support, basically unchanged from a month ago. he's followed by perry at 19%, a 10% drop from august, cain surged 11 points from last month getting 17% support. after riding an initial wave of

enthusiasm, governor perry's campaign has since stumbled, mostly over a series of controversial comments, including this one from last thursday's gop debate. >> if you say that we should not educate children who have come into our state for no other reason that they've been brought there by no fault of their own, i don't think you have a heart. >> so, that is -- mika, you know what? here's the deal. maybe -- and i've been tough on him. there's no doubt. willie, have i? i don't know. maybe i've been a little tough. >> we hurt the ones we love. >> i've got to say this about rick perry, the one thing you cannot criticize him for, he's staked out this position, he's been consistent throughout his years in texas, and he's staying with it. and you know what? even i have to respect that in a man. because he's being a real man by saying this is what i believe. >> yeah. >> just like social security's

unconstitutional. hold on, mika -- >> yeah. >> i want to apologize because he has been consistent on this issue, and it hurts him -- because that has shown political courage. and all too often, political courage is lacking. >> until now because actually yesterday in an interview with news max tv, perry apologized for that comment. >> but for what? >> and walked back from his stance on providing instate tuition. >> what? >> children of illegal immigrants. >> what? he's backing down. >> i probably chose a poor word to explain that. for people who don't want their state to be giving tuition to illegal aliens, illegal immigrants in this country, that's their call. and i respect that. and i was, you know, i was probably a bit overpassionate about using that word. and it was inappropriate. >> he didn't back off his position, just the word. >> all right.

>> they're illegal aliens now. >> he's got to co-write a book with pat buchanan. >> here's the thing. look, you're right, joe, he has stood by his position. his problem was when he accused all of the people who opposed his position with instate tuition, you guys got no heart. that hit him in the base at the point that ponzi scheme never did. that's the point he's backing off of, not his position. >> i'm going to read this must read. because even we've been tough on the republican field as a whole. and he asks why not mitt romney? attention chris christie fans, if you're looking for a republican nominee who could actually do the job of president who does not repel independent voters, who can survive a 90-minute debate without saying anything foolish, why not mitt romney? for three years republican,

strategists, and donors have tried to find a positive all the terntive to romney. and again and again they have failed. for about 15 minutes, that alternative seemed to have at last formed in the form of rick perry. perry is still raising money, yet it's hard to miss the loud hiss of air escaping this political balloon. >> surely the issue is, the good news is, the campaign may finally moving away from the "american idol" stage and getting serious. but it's hard to see romney carrying it without addressing in a speech somewhere the mormon issue. >> really? >> i don't agree with that at all. >> it's still there. it's still there. >> really? >> he has to address it. >> how many republicans have you talked to that vote in the past week? that would be none. it's still an issue. >> i standby there's been a dramatic shift in the view of romney from vanilla boring to

competent. and i think that's what's happening, and people are seeing it. >> i think it's teeing up for him. >> let's not write off perry yet, because all of a sudden in the next debate. >> that is a manhattan dream. that ain't happening. >> the romney thing is interesting. >> when is competence. in any campaign you want contrast. i think barack obama's perceived -- and i'll just say perceived incompetence provides mitt romney a wonderful opening to say i'm not exciting, but you tried exciting. and if you don't like him, here i am. husband number two. >> you know, joe, i think romney is clearly, i think, has a wide open track to the nomination. but, he has a problem. he has not energized the base of the party. many of them unhappy with him, some of them don't like him. he's got to do what ford tried to do in '76 when he realized he had the same problem.

he said i've got to put ronald reagan on the ticket with me. romney has got to find a way to bring the tea party, the conservatives, the energy, and the fire in and put that together. and when you get that together as a republican, then you win. >> what about the mormonism in the south? is it a problem? >> i think it's a problem for him. a problem in ta sense, joe. but the tea party do not have a candidate that can go the distance and beat romney. the closest thing they've had to it is rick perry who does seem to be shrinking. and that's why i said perry has got to win iowa in order to get into south carolina and beat romney. >> but there's a conundrum here. and i'm going to quote your column from the other day. what romney's got to do is appeal to that right in the tea party. and you're thinking about crazy never wins. in order to do that, you've got

to talk crazy, and he's not doing that. >> you know what? paul ryan, beloved by the tea party, jeb bush -- >> what should he say to appeal the tea party? >> i think he just keeps doing what he's doing. i don't think he should veer off course at all. he's doing well, and they will come to him at some point. mika. >> they will come to -- >> to mitt romney on that point. and i think -- i think he will remain tough on the president, and i think it'll pay off. he's getting more relaxed too in the debate performances. >> it's very interesting. >> sam stein has written something in the huffington post about this. also, willie, i think since we're talking about rick perry, as we go to break, i think we need to go to the badlipreading.com. >> well, actually, sam, you know, it's interesting with the supreme court story on the health care overhaul law, the

issue about romney care, and you write about that in the "huffington post." it was a policy so poisonous for republican voters that he'd have to abandon it in order to win their support. but months into the run, mitt romney has been surprisingly unhindered by the health care policy he passed as governor of massachusetts leaving some political observers utterly befuddled. it's not hurting him. >> that was just beautifully written. i'm still getting over that. actually, this is something that surprised me a lot because obviously heading into the primary was considered to be the biggest liability for his campaign. the fact that, you know, let's be honest, his plan in massachusetts was the philosophical foundation for obama care. but nobody seems to be caring that much. and part of it has to do that it's tough to explain the specifics of the policy,

whereas, for instance, with rick perry with the hpv vaccine is simple. you describe injecting the vaccine into sixth grade girls. it gets to the competency issue. they like romney as a manager. one last thing is i talked to a pretty high up republican strategist who said romney really hasn't been hit hard in these debates in terms of going after him. when tim pawlenty was standing there on the debate stage, he memorably didn't take the bait. and when of the great things that happened to romney was rick perry entered the race and immediately became the front runner and everyone's attention was turned to perry. and so no one's taking a swing at romney. >> here's the reason it's not affecting him. voters vote for a candidate, not issues. pat buchanan is not going to vote for me. >> well, you know, i think sam's got a good point, except the

pragmatists no that mitt romney's from massachusetts, and that's a different world and he was not a great conservative up there, at all. and for tea party folks, they know about the individual mandate. and it's all right there, and one of the inhibiting factors in moving to romney. but joe, what you said is correct, as long as romney stays, he's run a conservative campaign, hitting perry from the right on social security and things. hit him from the right on immigration. as long as he stays there and realizes he's got to get the energy and fire. >> he did not hit perry from the right on social security. he was trying to be presidential. >> look, i think in my judgment he was hitting him from the right with a ponzi scheme and all this other stuff. for florida, it certainly was. for those 40% down there over 65. >> yeah, i think romney just needs to stay the course. it's worked for him very well. >> yes. and, and, yes, he can pick

things to be conservative on. and it is fascinating, mika that perry has come into this race, going to be the conservative, but he has been brutalized from the right and left. as alec baldwin said playing perry. and i want to give vaccines to sixth grade girls so they can have deep meaningful sexual relationships and then goes into illegal immigration. i mean, perry's just been absolutely -- >> isn't there always this hand wringing in the primary process. john mccain was getting hammered, rush limbaugh saying don't vote for john mccain and at the end of the day -- >> it happened in 1992, bill clinton was supposed to be one of these midgets and out of that came a guy the democrats would absolutely kill the to have on the ballot. >> again, read your column, crazy never wins. >> it doesn't. >> it to get to politico.

lawmakers in germany's lower house have voted by an overwhelming majority, it could be a major step toward tackling europe's debt crisis. the measure heads to the upper house where it's also expected to pass. the news is providing a boost for chancellor merkel as some said the vote was a a tetest of leadership. some of whom in her own party have resisted additional rescue measures. under the expansion, the euro zone's new powers include buying the bonds of shaky countries and lending money to governments before they get into a full-blown crisis. the financial times this mortgage looks at germany's failing export model and other issues surrounding this crisis, jillian. >> yeah. absolutely. i was down in washington over the weekend and it was pretty depressing. but this, at least, is a bit of good news, germany is moving forward. and if the other countries

ratify, as well, there should be a fund up and running by the end of october. is it going to be big enough? and can they actually get their act together to spend the money in the correct way? >> what has germany done right over the past decade? to lead us to this point where they really on the continent or the last strong country standing. >> basically they've been pretty german. they have been hard-working, sober, they've saved money -- >> invaded a few countries. i'm sorry to say. >> yeah. yeah. go ahead. >> yeah, they've been -- >> i'm kidding, my german friends. >> exactly. they've been saving money, they've been the anti-italians, if you like, anti-greeks, anti-americans quite frankly. >> they have. >> they've been raising their productivity rates, as well. >> and personally, mika, when we collapsed in 2008, our national savings rate was zero, the germans was close to 10%. there are are a lot of things to

learn from what the germans have done over the past decades. >> two big problems with germany. tsz done well in the last few years, but partially because it's saving money, not spending, not creating the kind of demand for goods from the rest of the euro zone, and that's a problem for the economics. and secondly, the germans want everyone in the euro zone to be like them, german, and they cannot understand -- >> you're saying a lot of weird things. everybody wants on the high holy day, we've got to be careful -- >> come on, just stop it. >> we're talking about -- you wrote a column about lyme disease. it's fascinating because my kids were in the doctors office yesterday. >> i'm having one of my kids tested. >> one of the nurses said you could not pay me enough money to live -- and i absolutely love connecticut, you love connecticut. but the nurse said to live in connecticut. more and more kids are coming in

and people are coming in with lyme disease. it's becoming an epidemic. >> it's horrific what's happening. i stumble on this because i was out seeing friends in martha's vineyard and the hamptons this summer. almost everywhere i went somebody knew somebody who had been infected by lyme disease. and some of the stories are tragic. it's debilitating. and what's really shocking is there's been so little research trying to work out. it appears to be mutating. >> why is it getting worse for people that even visit the northeast? >> well, the scary thing is no one's quite sure. after i wrote this column, we had a deluge of e-mails and letters, which we'll be printing on saturday. and you've got one of the big pharmaceutical companies wrote in saying we don't think it's the deer, which people think it's a deer tick, we think it might be the dogs. and we did research looking into dogs and we're developing a

vaccine for the dogs. someone wrote in we think it's some kind of army testing, military testing. and people of depression and they're kind of masquerading as lyme disease -- >> no, that's ridiculous. willie geist, you know people affected by this. it ain't depression. >> no, i had it ten years ago. lucky i caught it early because we saw the bull's eye bite. it's become part of the routine. i have two little kids, every day they come in from the yard, you have to check every inch of their body. you see them on the side of their heads sometimes and pluck them out. >> you know what i think is cute? you are calling hamptons long island. >> i don't go -- >> what's wrong with the hamptons? a lot of hard-working people in the hamptons? >> a lot of people avoiding paying taxes out there.

>> that too. >> and a lot of deer, as well. >> that's what makes the society great. you have a hard-working first generation immigrant and you have, you know, rich white guys -- >> tax avoiders that don't pay taxes and go on tv and say raise my taxes, mr. president. >> and that's an idea, as well. everywhere you see the symbols. the key thing is, there needs to be more research, more focus, and people need to be told what to do. >> yes. >> exactly. >> thank you very much. coming up -- >> and by the way, we need to talk to her about the national league. >> this is -- >> no. we'll talk to ken burns on his new documentary. also actress goldie hawn will be here. and up next, an exclusive first look at this week's "time" magazine. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

all right, 24 past the hour. joining us now, "time" magazine managing editor rick stangel who is here to relieve my pain of

the talk of red sox with the latest issue of "time" magazine. what is it? >> there's a slash down the center to represent the great and widening divide between the wealthy and less than wealthy in america. >> let's explain we're looking at that cover, rick. explain what americans are looking at in the stacks of dollar bills. >> we had an artist who was working on the cover and we said one way to demonstrate -- it's a jeffrey sachs piece, saying there's a greater economic divide than any time in the history. how would you represent that? so we had a stack of $100 and single $1 bills, and he sent in a thing that was fantastic, he split the cover with an xacto knife. >> so that's 85% of the money is spent by -- >> 20% of the population. >> 20% of the population. >> 80% of the wealth is held by

20% of the population. >> and the small dollars are held by the other 15% -- i'm sorry, the other 85%. >> and jeff's piece talks about the long history that resulted in this kind of inequity. blames democrats and republicans and, you know, obviously it's not good. the main story is a piece about what we're calling the new age of volatility. that, in fact, we're entering a kind of period that's very similar to the period between 1919 and 1945 where there were recessions every three years, the economy was going up and down. there's lack of predictability. and so it's just -- it's a scary and disturbing situation. >> what are the five things that thy time magazine says you should never -- >> oh, hold on. >> also the extremes of extreme couponing, which is even so extreme there's a tv show on it. why nail polish is the new lipstick, the $75,000 cap of happiness -- >> cap on happiness.

>> cap on happiness, and the five things you should never buy again. >> the five things you should never buy again, flu remedies, cell phone minutes, bottled water, credit card payment insurance. so also the thing i love, though, is the new lipstick index that nail polish is the new lipstick. basically for a long time economists talk about the lipstick index, when economic times are bad, people like to spend money on something small. and if lipstick sales went up in bad times. there it is. but nail polish sales are up like 65% this year, even more than lipstick, so it's the idea that nail polish is the new lipstick. this is joe's or yours? >> it's definitely mine. >> let's talk about the decline of the middle class written by jeffrey sachs. all the numbers are frightening. you look at union membership,

which really signified the explosion of the middle class in 1945. look at it now, down to 7% in private, in the private sector. >> and part of jeff's thesis is, in fact, the sad truth is we're not competitive in a lot of manufacturing industries anymore. it's not so much that the companies are exporting jobs, they're going to places where they can manufacture higher quality more cheaply. that's capitalism. so part of it is those jobs in the 1950s, 1960s, in the 1970s, and wages, by the way, are stagnant for working people in america back to 1973, those jobs have left. in part because we're not competitive. >> pat buchanan, a lot of those jobs have left. some of them are coming back in volkswagen, mercedes, and exporting jobs to america. but i wonder if that is bad news in a sense.

>> no, it's not capitalism, it's globalism. we always have made more money, americans have been better off in other countries. it used to be we had our own protected market, the greatest market in the world. and you charge -- if a company moved abroad, it would pay a price to get back in this market. now we let them in free to undercut the wages of american workers. obviously big corporations, our own ge, are going to move their plants where they can produce cheapest, get rid of their american workers and keep consumers. >> and 11 million jobs today, and the concerning thing is, what changes it? when you look at the macro trends to pat's point about globalization, there's almost no fix to this. >> but again, it's a mixed message because part of that is technology, right? technology is eliminating a lot of jobs -- >> that's my point. but people want the convenience of technology, they don't want the unemployment that often

comes with it. but your point too is also one of the other points that jeff makes is that a lot of corporations are keeping their profitability and their revenue abroad where they don't get taxed and basically they're hiding it out there and the tax laws need to be reformed. >> well, here's what happens is, you get rid of your american workers, get rid of that wage base, you've got chinese workers, but you're right, the profits then go to the corporate executives and the shareholders. that's why you get the disparities of income in the financial world, we're all pretty well to do, get higher and higher income from dividends and all the rest of it while the working guys lose all their jobs. look, we're still consuming clothes, shoes, bicycles, radios, tvs, autos and all the rest of them. they're just made abroad now rather in the united states. >> it's not just manufacturing, it's service. i had breakfast with a very dynamic 27-year-old entrepreneur yesterday who has this event business and tells me proudly how he'd come back from the

philippines and hired seven data base workers there and goes, you know what, they were thrilled at $250 a month. it's not slave labor. this was a high wage. and here's a young guy -- >> $250 a month? >> a young guy bragging to me how smart he was going to the philippines. they're brought up differently. that's the scary thing a young person talking that way. >> even, you know, the white house talked about the fact that people who run businesses in america have to make decisions about this. and sometimes you make a decision to say i'm going to keep something here, i'm going to hire american workers because it's beneficial to all of us. i don't think there's anything wrong with that. >> right. but if you raise the price of the product -- let's say chinese products. let me give you an example, put 100% tariff on goods made in china coming to the united states, take the revenue from that and cut the taxes on all manufacturing businesses in the united states. that's what we did under hamilton, lincoln, and the

republicans, all the way up to almost world war ii. you know, the idea of protecting the american market was in every republican platform from lincoln all the way up to dewey. >> i don't know that anybody's advocating tariffs to that extent, pat. >> check my new book. >> sam stein, part of the problem right now, sam stein, is the fact for president obama is the fact that we have reached this point. where we were able to disguise this back in the '90s with the dot com boom that went bust, wuwe were able to disguise this over the past decade with a mortgage boom. old books, i wrote a book eight years ago saying it's all smoke and mirrors. but now barack obama finds himself president of the united states at the time there's no more pixy dust out there and cause a new bubble to ride us

out another five years. and now everybody's looking at him, what do you do? create new jobs for us, create new industries. that can't be done from washington, d.c. and yet that's what everybody's expecting this president to do. >> i know. in a utopia, there'll be a great bubble that came up and saved us all. but it's not going to happen. i do think there is some promise, and it's probably ironic to say this, but there is promise in new technologies, green technologies, new energies. but yeah, you're right. a lot of the problem in washington, d.c. is that we tend to give the president such powers that we think he can turn around the economy by simply snapping his two fingers. but these are two things out of his control in many respects. it would be nice to get more investment from congress into the economy. but there are political limitations to that. and the white house is really sort of a discomforting place for them. >> but as jeffrey said here on

this show 2 1/2 years ago when the debate was raging about the stimulus package. he said, but all you're doing is creating a new bubble with government money. and, yes, maybe that will help us out for a quarter, maybe that'll help us out for a year, but as jeffrey saks said from the beginning, we've got to grow industry. like sam said -- and so many times, that's not top down. that is a bottom up creation from entrepreneurs. >> absolutely. and jeff talked about the limited short shocks of stimulus that basically say, you know what? this will help us for six months or a year and the economy will start growing again. unfortunately, that hasn't happened. and the irony is a lot of people saying we're spending too much. and jeffrey argues we have to spend more to have a bigger stimulus. it's a -- >> and another thing that plays into this is are how people are feeling. 70% favor raising taxes on higher income people. not necessarily the better thing

for the economy. but people have been feeling very insecure and speaking of rick perry, 70% of people feel social security will not be around for them. >> well, i think these jolts we can put into the economy are important, actually, and the loan programs we provide are basically insurance programs for companies to make these types of investments. we shouldn't sour on green energy because solyndra -- >> we actually have a chart in this week's green energy that basically china had 15% of the market five years ago now they have 64% of the market. >> that's not an excuse for us to retreat from it. >> no, i agree with you on retreat. but blame goes all the way around on this one. the cover is "what we spend," "time" magazine.

coming up next. >> ken burns, we're going to have to meet part three of baseball. >> what are you doing? stop it. >> this is brutal. >> we're going to ask him about prohibition and also the pain of being a red sox fan. yesterday doesn't win. big doesn't win. titles corner offices don't win. what wins? original wins. fresh wins. smart wins. the world's most dynamic companies know what wins in business today. maybe that's why so many choose to work with us. we're grant thornton. audit. tax. advisory. gives you a 50% annual bonus! so you earn 50% more cash.

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welcome back to "morning joe." 39 past the hour. the energy department has approved a new round of loan guarantees for two solar energy projects. it comes weeks after california-based solyndra which received a $35 million installment from the obama administration filed for bankruptcy. and laid off thousands of workers. the new loans total more than $1 billion and will be used for construction projects in nevada and arizona. solyndra was a solar panel manufacturing firm. the department of energy e-- coming up next, goldie hawn will join the table also lindsey buckingham. ken burns, already sitting

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now through january earn a free day with every two rentals. find out more at nationalcar.com. ♪ what do you expect my reaction to be? >> whatever you want to say. >> i mean, uh -- we just lost. what do you -- how am i supposed to answer that? >> what are you feeling? disappointment, frustration, sadness, shock? hasn't set in? >> yeah, i mean, all of the above. >> all right. >> crawford, seriously? carl crawford. >> joining us now ken burns who

is here, i think, to discuss his new pbs documentary. >> hey, you know what? you know what? turn this song off. you do not -- turn the song off! >> yes. >> don't do that. >> why? >> because! >> what? >> this is a wake, okay? >> i have to shed some perspective. off camera for the last nine minutes -- >> classic yankee guy, right? you shut up. >> no you shut up. >> it's interesting. we had the greatest collapse of the yankees, up 3-0 in '04, we lose, it's never talked about. we focus on the wins. you guys love the pain. you can't stop talking. i think you enjoy it. we don't even acknowledge -- >> i made a film about that. i stretched out that comeback. i stretched out your collapse as long as i have -- >> it never happened. it never happened. >> we will always have '04.

>> you talk about the pain and i think that's interesting. >> you said i'm putting on the pinstripes -- >> i will say this, seriously, though, ken, about the pain. we were talking about the pain of '75, '78, the pain of '86, the pain for '03, which was a unique pain. i wake up this morning and my gut, even though it hurt, it's not wrenched like it was. 2004 and 2007 make a difference. >> they do make a difference. >> i love it, though! you can't talk about it enough. you love the pain. >> look at this. >> here's something. >> i know. >> welcome, welcome. >> my concern is for barnicle. is he under observation? >> i will say this about mike barnicle. and i think again, '04 and '07 made a difference. we were texting back and forth last night. and i sent a one-word text to him, unspeakable, and he sent

back a text about carl crawford and i can't quote what it said. and i said something else like this is the worst thing ever. and barnicle said, which shows you the difference between now and '04. he said, on the bright side -- and i'm like, what bright side? the greatest night in the history of major league baseball in a regular season. >> he always takes that high road. he did that in 2003 when he talked about the great game. >> no, it was not a great game. >> i think he sees -- and that was great drama last night. >> but you know, you weren't watching because you were working on a film. i will tell you, willie and i and i think millions of people, explain to ken why last night was the greatest night in regular season major league baseball in 120 years. >> i describe it as being like the ncaa tournament except you're in invested in the teams. so you're flipping around. you've got yankees on the espn network, the braves on.

oh, they scored, i've got to jump to that game. >> this is the argument for the wild card. >> absolutely. case closed. >> if you hadn't decided two weeks ago, none of us would be talking about it. >> you could do a tick to become, in the film down the road -- >> the 11th inning. >> it was 3-2 in the ninth inning for the braves, they were two outs away from dodging the bullet and having the one-game playoff. it was one strike away for the red sox. and this all happened simultaneously. it was like one explosion after another explosion. you saw it all unfold. it was really shocking. >> at the drop, the red sox score goes up on the score board, shows the orioles have lost one minute after the score went up, longoria hits the game-winning homer. >> and you can't write this. greatest game ever invented. >> by the way -- >> designed to break your heart.

>> before longoria's ball cleared the fence, i was a broken old man. i did not sneak out over the left field fence -- i heard the crack. >> seriously. somehow this ties in. >> it does. >> prohibition -- >> here's what it is. >> drinking. >> the more things change -- that's right. it's a drama about drinking. >> we don't need a transition. three-part 5 1/2-hour series about the rise and fall of prohibition. >> you're so excited about -- i've never seen you so excited a about anything. why? >> there's nothing new under the sun. this is the story of single issue political campaigns, wedge issue campaigns th-- the demonization of immigrants to the united states, the decay of

civil discourse and smear campaigns during presidential election cycles. sound familiar? this is about a whole group of people who feel like they've lost control of their country and want to take it back. and the way they do it is by imposing prohibition. nothing so needs reforming, mark twain said, as other people's habits. this is the story of putting prohibition for somebody else. you can control -- >> and explain the immigrants at the time -- >> as always, america has the dream of itself, the small town, jeffersonian vision that never was, but as the big cities filling at the end of the 19th century with catholics, jews, newly freed african-americans, what are you going to do? you've already got this concurrent social problem, which is people are awash in of alcohol in the century. the only way you're going to take care of that is not by trying to address the problem with 10% of the population that suffers from drunkenness, alcoholism we call it.

but on 100% of the people. the only amendment of the constitution of the united states that limits human freedom and shows the process works that was repealed. >> a nation of drunkards. >> we're drinking three or four times as we drink now. it's distilled spirits as well. which are relatively new, just a couple of centuries old. and people are drunk everywhere. families are being broken up. the paycheck is being squandered. womens without rights are being abused as our children. no recourse in divorce or any protective services. so people very naturally fix on this idea of drinking less. but then the absolutists come in, the folks who say you need to have total abstinence. capital t total abstinence and that's the solution. as one preacher said, little is

done but the intended outcome, organized crime. we never escape the specific gravity of this amendment to prohibition except for our suspicion of someone who comes to us if you just do this amendment, everything will be all right. everybody thought that if you got rid of alcohol, said hell will forever be for rent. as soon as they pass that thing, there was standing room only. >> the absolutists once again caused much problems. >> i want to look at a clip. here's a clip from prohibition. >> there was a beginning of time when boys and girls slept together. there was quite a lot of that going on which astounded me from my innocent background. but anyway, it was happening a lot, really. my girlfriends told me and would

ask did i have a really good boyfriend or not. but i always denied it. >> to bring up a point, it's fascinating how you set the relevance of the times. the reason we need artists like yourself and every time right wing people say what's with this is because it teaches us. >> it's always right wing people, isn't it? just just reflexive. you're an absolutist. >> the left leaning people come down on the arts. it's the right wing. there's a reason you are doing this now. there's a reason that boardwalk empire exists. it's in the air and needs to remind us of the problems. >> we don't point arrows. i'm not a political film maker. this is a great story. when the germans are vilified at world war i, they rename

saurkraut freedom cab gage. sound familiar? >> so what was the turning point? >> hypocrisy. our third is called a nation of hypocrites. it is what people said at the time. when the depression came and you're going why did we eliminate the fifth largest industry? all the brewers and distillers and fermenters, why did we do this? we could put people back to work. but the hypocrisy sunk in and they said enough. this is un-american. >> wow. ken burns, thank you so much. "prohibition" airs on pbs monday and tuesday at 8:00. i can't wait. >> we'll get barnicle on set, can you come back on set? >> absolutely. >> we'll be right back with more "morning joe." ♪

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the win. he red sox lose in a crucial 162nd game of the year. >> that one drilled deep to left field. it i run! the rays are going to the playoffs! a walkoff home run by evan

longoria right down the line. and the rays win 8-7. >> good morning. it's 8:00 a.m. under the east coast as you take a live look at new york city. back with us on set we've got donny deutsch. along with pat buchanan and sam stein in washington. first of all, i'm going to talk about how horrific it is. this really is bad. last night and last month, as bad as any month in red sox nation history. it certainly is bad as 2003 which was horrific. it's as bad as 1986 which for me is still the absolute worst, 1986 and the mets and the collapse. but also 1978, 1967. you go back, back. but willie, what's your take on the night overall?

i've never seen anything like it in major league baseball. i'm following four scores. it was stunning. >> you're flipping around with the remote control the way you do on the first two days of the ncaa tournament. it's that exciting except you're more invested in the team. it's not northern iowa scoring an upset which is fun to watch. it's your teams that you've been rooting for all year. it's the phillies, cardinals. it was exciting. the seon maybe not just for carl crawford but for the month of september for the red sox embodied in that last play. >> the last play. >> if you're carl crawford, you have to lay out for that ball. >> and this is what we're talking about. carl crawford just sort of lazily lounges to get the ball. that is a season on the line. if you sw a slow mo, you see

the guy just didn't reach out for it. he didn't give his all. after stealing 20 million plus from the red sox this year for absolutely horrific season, he then -- really, sam stein. you're a red sox fan. were you still there by that point or did you live with the rain delay? >> we stayed through the rain delay to watch tampa bay win on an ipad monitor. we thought let's book it out of here and catch the end of the games on tv. i think you're being too tough on crawford. there was something cosmic going on these pastwo weeks. >> don't fall on that. >> no, no cosmic? what's going on here, captain kirk? >> you're telling me -- hold on. you're telling me you're going to blame crawford when in fact let's go back an inning with big

papi and you can get an insurance run and he hits dribbler. papelbon throws one right down the middle for a double. there are a million what ifs. why is it cosmic? look at dan johnson. unbelievable start. hitting .105 going into the potential last bat. he puts one into the corner. that w just unbelievable. >> twice. twice. the red sox were one strike away from avoiding it, donny deutsch. twice. and twice their best pitcher at the end papelbon, gives up hits. gives up back-breaking hits. >> with a lot of soul searching there are three words. >> don't be a smart ass today. >> red sox suck. they do.

>> here's the deal, okay? here's the deal! you fight the good fight, okay? the morning after. show a little class. >> and i've got to hear about the little team that could. and they suck. it's that simple. the red sox suck. okay? having said that, let me go a little deeper and analytical. >> could you cut this guy's mic? what i find fascinating and this is what makes baseball the greatest sport in the world. i agree with you and mike barnicle. i wish you were here. it is just so amazing how something overtakes a team. how you go how can they not win? they're playing crappy teams down the line. teamwith nothing on the line who get up for games like this. what happens in the air to a team that -- also atlanta braves. same thing. up by eight games. it takes over their psyche. it is a mental game as much as physical. it's stunning. >> it is tentative too.

that's what carl crawford was on that last play. crawford last year when he was playing great outfield and swinging a great ball would have ve for that ball and made that catch. he did it against the yankees a couple times. he didn't look right out there. >> it's interesting compared to television and this show is great it keeps rocking. you come and you kind of have a swag wither about you. versus if you were coming on -- >> donny, you've got a swagger at funerals. seriously. >> that's part of success. versus doing a show not knowing if you're getting canceled. playing the way you're supposed to. playing to win. >> and pat buchanan, you've seen it with sports teams time and time again. the sox were tentative. willie you saw this. they dragged back into the dugout. and at the end it got them. let's talk about the rays.

the rays had seven of their last ten gameshis year were with -- against the new york yankees, right? seven of the red sox last ten games were the orioles. that's why fans knew even though the sox may not deserve it, they would make it into the playoffs because they had everythg in their favor. yet with everything going against the rays, they had an extraordinary september run. and the red sox just embarrassed themselves. >> joe, i go back a long way. it reminds me the old brooklyn dodgers had their 13-game lead against the giants. at the end of that season the two came up against each other in the last game. and thompson put it out there, the threrun homer, one of the great plays in baseball.

they sort of collapsed. but it was that exciting finish the last day of the season. and that took the giants into the pennant and the series. >> they did not collapse. the red sox did collapse. you were born a red sox fan, i've been a sox fan since '75. rate this then we'll turn on the news. rate this in terms of heart break. >> of hurt? in terms of stomach pain? >> yeah. and stomach pain and sortof rick perry vomiting all over yourself type stomach pain. rank this among the hurts you've heard your parents and everybody talk about. >> for me the sort of seminal stomach punch moment was aaron boone in 2003. it was just -- i'd been watching the game. i'd been sitting with my friends. it was several innings past the ninth inning and boom it was over. it just hurt.

this was, i felt almost worse. for two straight weeks watching waiting for the shoe to drop. just knowing one sox pitcher was going to come in and screw things up. you had a sense something was going on here where the team was tightening up, that they sensed they were going to lose. and it was watching a prolonged train wreck. >> it was. >> so i have to say this. in some respects,he fact that they didn't win the game and go into a playoff was almost a relief f me because i just didn't sense this team had it in them. i'd also like to say thas to the manager of the yankees for not pitching rivera in the ninth inning last night. i blame joe jir rar dee. >> the yankees up 7-0 in the eighth. 7-0. [ overlapping speakers ] >> you think this is worse for

red sox fans than bill buckner and wilson? >> no. >> i was at that game. >> no, that was worse. >> 2003, i got to say it was absolutely awful. for me '86 is the worst and will remain the worst. >> one more great thing about baseball. >> and then let's go on. we've got new polls out. >> in baseball, you don't get to pick who's up at the plate in the big moment. in basketball you give the ball to michael jordan. >> in baseball you do get to pick who's pitching in the big moment. and girardi did not pitch rivera. i have to go with something, i'm sorry. >> in this epic baseball moment that one coach just tanked. no. >> i didn't get the patriots score against buffalo this past sunday. >> why? >> why's he doing this to boston? >> so finally, i wanto

follow-up on the last thing about baseball. you and i have played a lot of sports. there are some like golf especially, it's 95% mental. when you know you can put it close to the cup, you put it close to the cup. when you know you can't, good night. basketball the same thing. when you're hot shooting, you're hot shooting and you can't miss anything. football not so much. but baseball is one of those games where when you get up to the plate and you know you're going to get a hit, they can throw you the best splitter and you're going to get a hit. that seemed to catch on with the rays. >> that was longoria last night. >> longoria. >> he could see it coming. >> i'm going big. the worst minute in regular season baseball history for red sox. for those of you who don't know, what made this more like a movie, think 162 games.

this started in february when th pitchers and catchers reported. here we are now september the 28th last night and it all ended in one minute. literally one minute the red sox lose. one minute later the ball goes over the left field fence. >> let me just say something. people criticize baseball as a sport a lot of times. no other sport has this dramatic arch. we follow this game throughout the course of the summer. we follow the teams. we get to ke them. we get to know them. but we develop this sort of narrative that comes in there in september. yesterday was one of the greatest days of sport watching that i've ever -- anyone could have. it was amazing. >> it was. of course all my teams lost. and for the red sox what a horrific season. it started rribly, ended horribly. the middle you thought they were the best in baseball for four months. that's the thing about baseball. and they were for about four months. best team in baseball. >> absolutely. >> you were thinking other than the phillies nobody could touch

this team. donny deutsch is such a jerk. when my team wins and you know this, but when they win the big one i keep my head down and i never say a word. because my team just talked for me. but donny -- >> that's not the deutsch way. >> turning now to the news. >> let me put it another way. the red sox suck. >> pat buchanan, let's talk about the 2012 presidential race. a new poll showing mitt romney in the lead. and rick perry's support has just collapsed. look at these numbers then we'll pa it around the rest of the table. romney at 23%. he's picked one over the last month. rick perry at 19% has dropped precipitously losing 1/3 of his support. a big shot here. cain helped by the florida straw poll. i guess for people right now it did mean something.

cain up 11 to 17%. gingrich 11%. paul 6%. huntsman 4%. bachmann about as fast a drop as i've seen since the iowa poll. and santorum at 3%. let's talk headlines first. the horrible week in polls here. 19%, perry. >> he's in real trouble. i think perry's got to win iowa or he's going to lose it. i think if romney can win iowa, it's all over. he'll go straight into new hampshire and win that. what's happened here -- >> pat, let me stop you quickly. neither you nor i would believe mitt romney could win iowa -- a new poll from iowa shows him 21%

ahead of michele bachmann by seven. those are pretty stunning turnarounds for romney. >> it's a dramatic turnaround. it opens a door for romney to go in and shut this whole thing down. if he can either win iowa or loses and runs second. lose to someone who cannot go the distance against him. i think he's in the cat bird seat and the reason is the tea party's been acting like a gal that's resisting in an arranged marriage and going from one candidate to another to another. they've been going at them. but the road is open for mitt r romney. >> sam stein, what a difference a few weeks make. let's put up the fox news poll

again. what a difference a week makes, actually, for rick perry. have you ever seen a candidate other than michele bachmann drop this precipitously as perry? >> it's remarkable. it's tough to gauge what sort of effect that has. but it was clearly a terrible debate performance for him. this gets more to the fluidity of the field more than anything else. people aren't comfortable with the people at the top. especially mitt romney. his numbers are staying steady around the lower 20s. i think that's the baked in number for him until we get to voting. theoretically if sarah palin or chris christie could look at this saying what a gift. i could jump in, get media coverage, build up an incredible amount of support over a short amount of time. and sustain it far bit. >> but there's the trick. all i have to do is sustain it.

>> correct. >> sarah palin would get into the race, pat buchanan, and she would be savaged. chris christie would get in the races and see it's more exciting on this side of the line. i suspect the same thing would happen to both of them. >> i think that's exactly right. we got to realize now that mitt's been out there for four years building organization in state after state so he's got a fallback position if he runs second somewhere. you take chris christie and these others, suppose they get in and do well, they would have to depend on momentum to run them through the whole race. i don't know that you can do that. again, they would split the tea party right which is divided about seven different ways. >> if i'm mitt romney, donny, i love where i am right now. i love this slow, steady build. he's a professional. he's been there for eight years. >> i think what happened to romney, it's gone from boring to

competent. there's a competency. and people all along were going mitt romney, mitt romney. competency. it's not a sexy word but an appealing word. i think that's what's coming across for him. >> hold on a second. whether it's ad campaigns or races, contrast is what matters most. especially taking on an incompetent and you match the competency against what a lot of business people, a lot of former obama supporters are saying about this president. that's an even stronger -- you know what? he's not sexy. i'm never going to scream for this guy. >> we've had sexy. >> we tried that in 2008. >> i'm going back to meat and potatoes. even the issue everybody thought he was going to get caught up on romney care, 33% of the voters say i don't care. they're votie ining for the guy.

you look at herb cain. the fact he got -- i love that. 17%, that bodes well for a chris christie. what people like about him, he's not. he's outside. he's different. so that's the vote for i don't want one of these guys which if i'm chris christie i go wow. >> so there's a big difference if you're cain and if you're romney -- i mean if you're chris christie. chris christie could be -- thinks he could be president of the united states one of these years. i just don't think he's going to take this chance especially the way things shake out for these other contenders. >> not this time around. the word you hear a lot more mitt romney is solid. someone saying the hpv vaccine leads to mental retardation. he's solid. >> coming up next we have academy award winning actress

goldie hawn. and also fleetwood mac's lindsey buckingham. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. uh yeah, it's a chevy volt. so you're just here rubbing our nose in the fact that you don't have to buy gas? just plug in and go? that make you feel better? well i still pay about $1.50 a day in electricity... on average. you know he's just here to use the bathroom. customers only. no gas, no bathroom. ok, i'll buy gas. [ father ] whoa, what are you doing? thought these were electric?

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is the party still going on? >> not for your, mr. greenfield. i don't like the way you treated my wife. and i don't like the way you behaving toward my girl either. never see my wife again or my children. >> now, wait a minute, buster. >> if i hear you've been bothering stephanie again i'll knock all your teeth out. >> you'll just have to put them back in again. >> get out!

i guess that'll take care of him. >> you know, i've never seen you be so physical before. you were beautiful. >> it was nothing. what do you say we go to your place where we can be alone. >> i'd like that. >> my, god. that was walter mathau and goldie hawn from "cactus flower" where she won her best supporting actress oscar. she's author of a new book. "10 mindful minutes" to reduce for healthier happier lives. >> are you saying it's stressful for my kids. >> serious lie all they talk about this morning is the red sox. i missed the first half hour and they spoke for a half hour on

the red sox. >> i'm sorry for you. i really am. >> and this one was saying shut up and shut up back. you have kids, right? >> i have kids. listen, you put three men together you're back at kid world. >> what are you doing to do? >> when kurt and the boys sit together in the living room and they yell and laugh. i don't know, but somehow i think it's great. i walk by, i gloat. but do i want to be in that conversation? no. >> no. thank you. >> let me ask you. you were also -- the one thing we didn't talk about is you were also the founder of this hawn foundation. what is that and what do you do? >> hawn foundation was put together to help children thrive. it's our mission. i was looking at the state of kids back sort of ten years ago and looking at these symptoms. and these symptoms were kids were opening fire in classrooms. there was a lot of suicide up. one in three were and continue

to be moving up medicated. our children are being medicated. some of them need to be medicated, i'm sure. you know. however, perhaps we have this a.d.d., quote society. we the united states of america are the second least happy children in the world. so the uk happens to be number one. now, this is a unicef study done in 2007. it's not acceptable. >> so what have you found out and a lot of this has to do with what you're writing about here about taking the stress out. i remember tom wolf talked about what's happened over the past quarter century. basically said the thing he couldn't come to terms with was the kids from the most affluent society are the most overmedicated and most depressed. >> it's true. >> why? what have you learned through the foundation and this book? why are our kids stressed and so

medicated? and not just on ritalin. oxycontin. >> self-medicated. yeah they're self-medicating. >> what is it? >> do i know the answer to that? i could give my opinion. >> what's your opinion? >> and i think we're not paying enough attention to our children. you know, we're talking about affluence. it isn't necessarily millionaires. it's $300,000 a year. two parents are working. there's not always the attention paid. there's a lot of people going out saving the world but their kids are eating by themselves. there's a lot of judgment things that are really not happening on behalf of the kids. so the pressure to succeed, the overscheduling of our children. >> oh, my god. mika, what is the deal with that? when we grew up, i played little league. now it's soccer, ballet, piano.

>> everything is scheduled for them. there's no individuality. >> never rest. >> so the i.t. world is stealing our intimacy with our own children. kids are going mommy i tr mmy t get their attention. >> and it's the kids also. the kids are disconnected. talk about pressure. they are 24/7 connected. you go home after your friends and it was just you. >> what are my girlfriends going to be texting about me behind my back. it is constant, isn't it? >> of course. we have a column coming up that we've written together on the issue of kids and technology. but that is a huge problem. >> huge problem. it's rewire brains. it's rewiring our children's brains. they have no capability for focusing for long periods of time. this is something this book talks about, helps parents with. parents also aren't focusing.

>> i have a 4-year-old and 8-year-old in new york city. by the time they get to sixth grade, they'll have four hours of homework a night. >> probably. and probably scoliosis because they're carrying all these -- >> how do i keep them from not being miserable? >> first of all, learning yo you are own ability to take a brain break. as we talk about -- in our basically foundation we have a program called mind up. will be in 25 schools in newark at the beginning of this year. so we're implementing this for the kids. take your brain break. don't allow stress to impair your ability to function. and that's what happens. parents do the same thing. >> that's great words. but action in the ecosystem that other 30 children they're competing against. for lack of a better word. that if they come home from school at 3:00 and they're in one sport until 5:00 and then

have to do homework for four hours, how are they not stressed out? >> we're not letting our kids be kids. >> we're not. we can let them know that -- it's what i used to say to the kids. you're worried about this test? let me tell you something, i want you to go outside. i want you to play. you know? give yourselves a smaller time to study for this test. it used to break my heart with what my kids came home with back then. >> so you said it's okay to get a b plus rather than an a? >> yes. i wasn't scared when i went home. she said good girl. maybe a get a b next time. >> your mom would have been a better academic fit than my parents. >> we have to realize children's health is more important than anything else. >> mika and i are living proof, are we not?

that sometimes book smarts doesn't translate to success. >> definitely. >> i will tell you what. my mom would always say to me, you know, you go out and play football then you come and lock yourself in a room. you live in this imaginary world. i don't know how that's going to help you. that was so much more important than study. >> where is the dream time for kids? it is. >> our kids don't dream. they're not allowed. >> the technology point is staggering. i have a 2-year-old son that does not know a world without the ipad. we're in the back of a taxi the other day and the tv comes on and he's touching and swiping it and why can't i control that? he's two. to donny's point, the current is moving fast in that direction. it's going to be impossible to stop it. >> we're not going to stop it, but the question is how do we deal with it. it's really about organizing around what's moving. it's a tidal wave, it's here. it's going to come, it's going

to keep coming. we as humans have the cape about of cutting off the aspects of what we're doing? do we have the power to put away the computer? absolutely. if we don't want to, we never will. remember the mice they put in and the mice eat the sugar until the die. if we're inundated with stress, too much information a brain that can't handle it, relationships that suffer because of it, our children aren't raised right, we're raising children to inherit this country and the world. if we're going to do that, let's do it thoughtfully and carefully. and that's what -- why i'm doing what i'm doing. >> i think this is incredible. >> it really is. >> i can't wait to read it. >> thank you. >> so much noise coming in, so much incoming. in my household both parents work. chaos. two teenagers. and i drag my daughter to church for a lot of reasons randomly. and we sat down and there wasn't a mass, but i just sat her down and said i'm going to make her

sit here. and 40 minutes later i thought this was the first silence that she's heard in a month. and it was so good for us. >> it's powerful. >> i couldn't believe it. >> going inside is vitally important. because if we don't, then we have missed an entire brilliant universe of potential. and that's what we're not doing with our kids. i love that you did that. it's very important. >> it was the same message. i walked out learning as much as she did. thinking my gosh. i've got to create -- you talk about 10 mindful minutes, it was brain space. >> this is about creating a safe zone for our children isn't it? >> yes, it is. i love you for that. i'm going to say one more thing and we're running out of time. one of our children in vancouver, the mindup program is in canada, the uk, the u.s. all over the place and growing. but one of our children in canada with a very dysfunctional

family, the two children created what they called mindful island. their safe space they created in their room where these children went when they were scared just to feel safe. now, you know, our kids can do that if they're taught. our kids can have evmpathy if they're taught. so we have the coolest things ever, up here. let's talk about this technology. >> the book is "10 mindful minutes." thank you. well, the safe zone is now over. because up next, oh lordy. fleetwood mac's lindsey buckingham joins us. we'll be right back. ♪

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with us now fleetwood mac guitari isist lindsey buckingha. hitting the road this fall for his first solo tour in four

years. as we explained on this show, mika is a cultural literate but she has always loved you. >> i saw you in connecticut. the floor was sticky. i was six feet away from you. >> the girl remembers the sticky floors. >> it was a standing crowd. there were no seats. >> it's not opera. people rubbing up against you, oh goodness. >> but you were unbelievable. unbelievable. it was like i was riveted. i was. >> i'm happy that you were a fan. that's my favorite album. >> is it really? >> what happens is you have the kind of success that rumors achieved and they want to brand you in a certain way and kind of follow the formula of the brand. and if you want to try to aspire to be an artist in the long-term, you've got to kind of undermine that a bit.

that's what tusk was about. >> you work to do that. obviously you do that with yo you are solo albums. reinventing yourself. there has to be so much freedom leaving fleetwood mac behind. i'm the artist, i'm doing it my way. it's got to be exciting for you. >> that choice may not prove to be a good choice for a number of years. it alienated certain factors at the time. but no, it's nice. you got this big machine and the small machine. >> but the small machine for the artist is so liberating. >> it is. that's where you can take the risks, follow your heart and continue to aspire to be an artist. >> yeah. no doubt about it. >> i'm always interested when a huge act goes solo and you've been associated with the band. is there a moment when you first went solo where you looked around and said uh-oh, where's the rest of the band? or who am i going to be without

these people? >> not really. it's just that, obviously when commerce is a little less robust, the same factions don't always step up to the plate. so you have to remember why you're doing it. you know. it isn't necessarily for the commerce. it's for, you know, the growth. and you cut off a certain number of people who may not relate to what you're doing. but that's the tradeoff. >> talk about this project. seeds we sow. how did it turn out? >> fleetwood mac had gotten off the road. i wasn't planning to make a solo album. i made some years ago where i told the band don't bother me for a couple of years. and so i really had no preconceptions about what it

was, subject matterwise or stylewise. and because of that, i think it turned out -- i think it's really the best work i've done. the work kind of led me. when the time opened up i said i better fill it. it was a surprise making it and a surprise how it turned out. >> what was the nicest surprise for you? and again, as a guy you wrote it, you produced it, you performed it. at the end of the day you get to the end and you say i surprised myself with that. >> i think i've been learning a lot over the last six, seven years with what i've been doing. and i think this ended up being kind of the culmination of that. and also if you look at my personal life, i saw a lot of my friends who were parents or spouses back in earlier decades who were not there for their families because of the lifestyle we were leading. i did not want to be one of those.

i waited until i was in my late 40s to start having children. that's been a great gift. that's kind of the subtext of all of this. that this is the best time of my life in a lot of ways. >> going back -- >> donny waited until his mid-50s to have kids with girlfriends. but go ahead. >> you got me beat. >> as an artist obviously what you wanted to is influence. what did it feel like in '92? you watch the convention bill clinton and your song is the theme song. you got to go whoa. how did that happen? >> that song was not written to have any political text to it at all. but the fact it applied so well to what he was trying to say on that level. and i think just the fact that when you're doing work, you never really know how it's going to sit and what kind of life it's going to have.

and what kind of legs it's going to have. when something comes back that much later and has a life, you feel you've done your job well. you've worked your way into the fabric. that's a good feeling. >> i'm curious what other artists you like and listen to. >> it's funny. my children listen to radio stations where it's tough for me to -- >> isn't it incredible? how old are your kids? >> i have a 13-year-old boy. >> i do too. the music is horrific. >> and then two daughters who are 11 and seven. >> i'm so sorry. the music must be awful. >> i'm in for a lot of trouble, yes? >> big trouble. >> you're in for it. >> don't listen to a lot of katy perry. >> it's getting worse. there is adele. >> you can go to satellite radio. college format is something i look at a lot. you bands like phoenix or arcade fire. >> great artists. >> vampire weekend.

there's a lot of good music going on right now. smart music. >> isn't that great? it is so much better now because so many people are liberated to record an album. you have guys of montreal that can go and do it all. like you said vampire weekend. can i ask you quickly. your guitar style has fascinated rock critics for awhile. for decades. one more time, explain sort of the genesis of it. because you play guitar like nobody else. and you do look like a mad hatter up there. >> you look crazy. it's riveting. >> where did it come from? were you born in the appalachian hills? >> it's in there somewhere. i started very young. i started when my brother brought home elvis pressley. and i taught myself. so i think a lot of it has to do with just the fact that there were no confines around it. i found my own way of doing it. because of that it's also hard

to analyze. there are elements of classical, elements of folk, elements of rock. >> there's no imitating your way. album seeds we sow. lindsey bucking ham, thanks for being here. up next, business before the bell. straight ahead. yesterday doesn't win. big doesn't win. titles

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simon hobbs is live for us at the u.s. stock exchange. what you looking at? >> i've got a ray of hope. the figures elevated 391,000. but it is a ray of hope in an otherwise what appears to be a dismal sea of economic data. we also have gdp growth a few minutes ago. 200 points at the open still a key vote in germany. so a good open this thursday morning.

>> all right, thanks so much. we'll be right back. in america, we believe in a future that is better than today. since 1894, ameriprise financial has been working hard for their clients' futures. never taking a bailout. helping generations achieve dreams. buy homes. put their kids through college. retire how they want to. ameriprise. the strength of america's largest financial planning company. the heart of 10,000 advisors working with you, one-to-one. together, for your future. ♪

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tomorrow morning joe hits the road in part of our brewing together education focus with starbucks. we visit the bronx charter school for excellence. howard shultz, dr. jeffrey sax, and gloria estifan.

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i got to go. >> welcome back to "morning joe." let's talk about what we learned today. what did you learn? >> i learned red sox fans are looking for the receipt they got for carl crawford to see if he's returnable. >> at least he gives his all when the season's on the line.

no wait a second. that's called alligator arm. keep your arm and glove close to your body. because we know it makes you break a sweat if you extend it out and save the season. thanks. what about you? >> i learned from goldie hawn that for our children we need ten mindful minutes a day. just ten. >> she was great, wasn't she? >> she really was. >> all ought to try it. >> thank you self-righteous mika. you're not the only parent that takes their kid to church. just the only to brag on air. well, delightful goldie hawn interview. we need to save some for our kids. >> it's "morning joe." we'll see you tomorrow at the charter school in the bronx. next "the daily rundown." jersey