let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, what's in a name? a lot right now if you're rick perry. when the news broke this the weekend that perry had hosted guests at a camp known as a racially charged name, his camp tried to get rid of the story. good strategy until herman cain called name of the hunting camp just plain insensitive. it's the latest hit for a campaign that has discovered it's a lot easier to launch a campaign for president than to sustain one. and that's something chris christie might want to take note of as he decides whether to get in the race. could it be that republican primary voters will decide he, chris christie, is too liberal for them? maybe that's one reason christie's having so much trouble saying yes. also, those wall street protests

beg the question, why isn't there a tea party on the left? columnist e.j. dionne says the dominance of the right in the political debate has been bad for president obama and bad for political moderates too. and a lot of people cheered when a u.s. drone took out anwar al awlaki, the american citizen who had joined al qaeda. but ron paul is one person asking if it's right to assassinate an america and deny him the right to a trial. we'll get to that tricky one. and let me finish tonight with this question, should president obama campaign from the left, as his base would like, or should he aim for the center? that's also going to be the subject of a very special live edition of "hardball" coming up two hours from now, 7:00 eastern, the great democratic debate. i'll be joined by eight guests, from both the left and from the center, who will debate the best way for the president to run and win a second four-year term. it's going to be quite exciting and i hope you'll join us at 7:00 eastern tonight. again, 7:00 eastern tonight, for the great democratic debate. we start right now with problems

with rick perry's campaign, and they're serious. wayne slater writes for "the dallas morning news" and michael steele is an msnbc political analyst. again we're back to what i call the san andreas fault of american life, and some live a lot closer to it than i do. the problem of racial discrimination, racial attitudes, racism. "the washington post" reported this weekend that a large rock with the "n" word for had years been visible at a hunting camp leeds by rick perry and his father. here's what "the post" reports. in a written statement, the governor said, "my mother and father went to the lease and painted the rock in either 1983 or '84, perry wrote. this is after i paid a visit to the property with the rock and saw the offensive word. after my visit, i called my folks and mentioned it to them and they painted it over during the next visit. time i saw the

rock, it was paintve perry's memories differ from others who remember seeing the rock with that name at various points during the year t associ property through his father, partners, or signature on a lease. of those interviewed, the seven who saw the rock said the block-lettered name was clearly visible at different points in the 1980s and 1990s. one, a former worker on the ranch believes he saw it as recently as 2008." so there we have it. the word is the old unlikable, despised and fairly so "n" word followed by the word head. it has something to do with designating a part of property, like nags head, but with the "n" in front of it. wayne, you're down there covering this story right now. >> this is unfortunately part of the shameful chapter in texas in the south. there were creeks, geographic

places and slopes that carried these racially offensive terms from 100 years ago, a post-civil war vestige. for perry, he's got two problems. one is he's given a timeline saying as soon as we found out about this, we painted it over, we got rid of it. if someone produces a picture that challenges that timeline, not just anonymous sources, then perry has a problem. more fundamentally, the question, it seems to me, the fair question, is is rick perry racist? and chris, i have to tell you, in being around rick perry for years and years, and talking to his close associates, good lawmakers who knew him back in the day, there was very little or no evidence that rick perry is a racist. >> well, you know, that's not really the bar or the standard i want to ask you to talk about for a second. people, lloyd benson when he ran for president on the democratic ticket had to quit the gentile country club he was in that didn't have any jewish members.

we have a standard that's somewhat higher than not being an out and out klansman. the question here, would he join a club that had the "n" word as part of its novel, old-time memories as part of it or whatever. would he put up with that? that's the question here. would he put up with the old crap? >> and my sense is, knowing rick perry, he probably would not. but having grown up here and not knowing what the proper name for slingshot was until i was 4 or 5 years old and the sort of maligned neglect of the old south, where a generation and another generation before that used offensive words and didn't think a thing about it, this is the kind of thing that exists here. we know it. but is rick perry that kind of person? i've never seen it in this case. >> good, fair reporting. let me go to michael -- >> one last thing, though. one last thing. the question ultimately becomes, how does this turn about the policies?

what he has done? what has he done as a statewide official and lawmaker a governor that reflects a more tolerant aspect? in some areas, very good reports. in other areas, not so good. >> michael steele, you chaired the republican party for those years. you know the sensibilities of your party, your the sensitivities. it's a party that under jack kemp has tried to raise the size of the tent, if you will. and you also have a lot of dixiecrats, former dixiecrats in your party. you know that. is this a former dixiecrat reminder? >> i think it is reminiscent of the old days. and i would agree with wayne, there's nothing in my experience with the governor that would lead anyone to believe that he would condone, appreciate, or accept this type of slur on his property. i think this is a matter of, you know -- and i take him at his word. he said his parents and he got rid of this, you know, painted over this in the 1980s, fine. if these other individuals have

something to say that's contrary to that, then produce that evidence. but there is a broader problem. and that is one that the republican party suffers from, in many quarters with black folks, and that is the sense of, this indication that we're somehow less sensitive to those types of things that we tend to dismiss them. and as you look at some, you know, of the conservative, more conservative bloggers and the like, you know, sort of almost defending the use of the term or at least excusing it away, it again sends the signal that the party is not quite ready to address, i think, a systemic issue with the african-american community. and that, quite frankly, cannot stand if we want to be successful in elections nationally and in the future. >> that's right. by the way, the name of that hunting area was called by that name. it wasn't just a piece of writing on a graffiti or something like that. that was the name of the slice of land there. here's rick perry taking the heat in this issue from his own party.

here's fellow presidential candidate herman cain on fox news sunday, just yesterday. >> that is is a more vile, negative word than the "n" word and for him to leave it there as long as he did before i hear that they finally painted over it, it's just plain insensitive to a lot of black people in this country. >> well, then, of course, mr. cain responded to that. he said, here he is, today after meeting donald trump, herman cain had this comment on rick perry. let's listen to this too. >> all i said was the mere fact that that word was insensitive. that's not playing the race card. i am not attacking governor perry. some people in the media want to attack him. i'm done with that issue. i really don't care about that word. they painted over it. end of story. i think it -- i accept governor perry's response on that, and i'm ready to talk about what's really important to the american people. >> so the disconnect between

what mr. cain said may know before that and then what he just said there. there was a change of direction there, because between those two statements, he got this statement written from the perry campaign. "mr. cain is wrong about the perry family's quick action to eliminate the word on the rock, but is right the word written by others long ago is offensive and insensitive. that is why the perrys took quick action to cover and obscure it." i want to go back. sometimes we benefit over an argument over a fact, because maybe one side's right and one side's wrong and then we know who's telling the truth and that also tells us who the good guy is. back to you, wayne. we like to find out who the good guy is in these debates. your contention five minutes ago is the real issue in terms of journalism was governor perry telling the truth when he said way back in '83 or '84, he got his daddy to paint over that word, so he's really innocent, because his first impulse was to cover it up.

if that's true, he's clean. but if that's not true, and by the way, how do we find out? will there be people coming forward? we don't all have cell cameras running around hunting grounds. i wonder if there are cell phones where people go hunting, but your thoughts on that one, wayne? >> that's fundamentally the problem, as i say. if somebody shows up with a picture and it showed in some way, some evidence that that was there and that perry passed it for years, not simply for a year or a few months, but passed it with fellow legislators, and i've talked to several who say they didn't see it, but if they passed it for years, then that reflects the kind of malaise, a sort of insensitive that clearly builds into a larger perception, and i know what michael was talking about, where when you have now a southern governor, who says states rights, states right, a southern governor, who we play racial politics down here on all sides. i mean, rick perry used pictures

of jim hightower with jesse jackson in his first campaign for agricultural commissioner. he attacked his hispanic democratic opponent, a hispanic banker, raising questions whether he was implicit in drug money laundering in mexico. that's racial politics. and you get this kind of thing, if he lied about how much he accepted this, how long he tolerated it, he has a problem. >> you know, from my perspective, chris, i look at this and i say, you know, as i said before, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt in terms of your timeline and what you're saying, but for me, it fundamentally goes to this. if i walk up on a piece of property that i have an interest in, whether i'm leasing it or own it, and i have something so vile that's sitting there in front of me, do i paint over it or do i just remove the damned thing? do i just have someone say, can you take that rock and throw it into the river. can we get it off this property? and that to me is really what this boils down to. you know, we cannot be la

lackadaisical about these issues. we cannot be insensitive in that regard and say, just paint over it, because it still is a reminder of what's beneath the paint. and i think, again, that's what irks a lot of african-americans and a lot of minorities, when it comes to how the republican party and sometimes individual candidates respond to these types of things. and i'm hoping we can show ourselves, because i know we are, bigger and better than that, and have a stronger voice, as we once did on these types of issues going forward. >> and i think -- i'm going to put an interjection here. let's not forget why a lot of southerners joined the republican party. not because they fell in love with abraham lincoln, but because they didn't like the civil rights bill of '64. that's not the only reason. a lot of it is conservatism. generally, they don't like big government and washington, it's not all race, obviously. but there was a terrible signal there that a lot of those guys switched over the minute johnson signed that civil rights bill in '64. even though a lot of republican

senators made that bill possible. and a lot of the republican senators deserve credit for that. but the south moved a little quick on that issue. anyway, thank you, wayne slater. as always, michael steele, thank you so much, gentleman coming up, those protests on wall street beg the obvious question, why isn't there a tea party on the left? why aren't the people on the left, the passionate left, out there complaining about wall street and the economy in this country and the way it's going? an organized grassroots movement to help counter the dominance of the right and the political right is emerging. there it looks a bit comical, but it's not, it's for real. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. americans are always ready to work hard for a better future.

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becoming more and more organized each day and we're building the infrastructure. and then every day we get bigger and find out that our infrastructure's inadequate. >> welcome back to "hardball." that's one of the protesters at the occupy wall street rally right mow in new york. we're now into week three of those protests, and the movement has been growing more intense. this week crowds blocked traffic on the brooklyn bridge. there it is. police arrested more than 700 protesters for marching there. and the movement is spreading. activists stranged similar protests in l.a. and chicago. here you see protesters in chicago's financial district. today a report from our chicago bureau says about three dozen protesters held signs, beat drums, and called for action against what they call

banksters. could these protests be the equivalent of a beginning tea party movement on the left? and why hasn't there been one yet? joining me now, vann jones, and willie brown, a much more veteran politician from san francisco and he joins pup let's talk about this right now. vann, inform me. >> yes. >> what's going on the streets right now of america? is it something like the arab spring? what's going on? >> well, you know, i think it's an expression of exactly the same thing. we had the arab spring. welcome to the american autumn. that is what is going on. we have hit a pain threshold in america. people see nothing coming from d.c., nothing coming from wall street. it looks like any kind of hope is going to be on the way and people are not going to take it anymore. >> i'll tell you one thing, these are happening all during the day, during the week. so by definition, these young people are out of work. >> and they're not alone. we have young people who went to great schools, did everything right, chris. they graduate off a cliff into

no jobs. they're praying for a two-year unpaid internship. and that's supposed to be success of america. we've got young kids coming back from overseas. they get dumped off, these young veterans a to the airport. no jobs, no hope, nothing. and you're seeing a generation standing up. it happened all around the world, it's happening in america. and i think d.c. and wall street should listen to these young people. >> mayor brown, is this the free speech movement of the 21st century? >> i think it's more like the free speech movement. somewhat akin to what occurred years ago when we were protesting the war in vietnam. it's in the context, however, of a democratic system, and it's clear, it will not be in the way in which other places where protests have occurred that they've challenged the government. this is a challenge to some individual policies. not the government itself. >> that's a very good point. >> why don't both of you guys start on this. give me some particulars. what are some demands that make sense to people watching right

now? >> first of all, what's going on, i think, with the young people. and i really invite you to have them on the show. they are incredibly articulate, they can speak well for themselves. i'm happy to talk about them as well as some of the work i'm doing directly. but one of the things, they've been criticized because they don't have demands. and i actually think we should take that seriously. because they may not have message clarity, but they've got moral clarity. they are calling attention to the incredible lack of economic home and opportunity that's going on. the kinds of things -- i don't think we should ask these young people to figure out derivatives reform or something like that. i think what they're saying is, look, we're sitting on a white-hot stove, we're starting to holler. rather than critiquing the way they're hollering, i think we should say as folks who maybe can make a difference here, this is a pain threshold. and i'm telling you what, mayor brown is right. this is not going to be about the government, it's going to be about what they're calling the plutocracy, the plutocrats.

>> but mayor brown, do you think they care in new york whether these people are protesting them? these guys making zillions. they're not afraid of this crowd, are they? >> no, i don't think the new yorkers on wall street are afraid of the crowd, but i think people seeking elective office will grow concerned about the crowd. and if people seeking elective office grow concerned about the crowd, they may very well institute investigations around the conduct of people on wall street. after all, you understand subprime mortgages never would have happened if somebody had in a rating agency listed them as aaa. that needs to be investigated and somebody needs to be prosecuted. >> who put these bouquets together and sent them over to belgium and said this is great property here. let's take a look. amid the occupy wall street protests and a conference of progressive groups coming together here in d.c., e.j. dionne of "the washington post" asks two important questions in his column. today, one, why hasn't there been a tea party on the left?

two, can president obama and the american left develop a functional relationship? now, maybe those are contradictory, van, but, you know, people don't like protesting with the help of the government. they like to protest at it. so what's he talking -- has he got a good point there? >> he's got a good point. while this is happening in new york city, the wall street protests, there's something else happening here in d.c. and that is the american dream movement is coming together. we have 70 of the most impressive left progressive,s, the afl-cio, moveon.org, et cetera, all meeting now, right now, in the next couple of days, saying we are going to disthe end the american dream, the idea that ordinary american people ought to be able to work hard and get somewhere. and the idea that the people who are working not that hard and the people who are breaking all the rules on wall street, they're too big to fail. no matter how hard we work, we can't succeed. i think the american middle class should be declared too big to fail. i think the dreams of these young people out there on wall street should be declared too big to fail. and what you're seeing is --

>> what's that mean? what's that mean? >> i'll tell you what it means. first of all, we act like america is broke. america is not broke. we've got more money -- we're the richest country in the history of the world, but we're sitting up here and letting schoolteachers be laid off and fire houses close and people are sick of it, chris. people want to see some actual motion where we say, look, let the people who did well in america do well by america and start paying america back, where they got the tax breaks, the bailouts. they took the money and ran and left the whole generation out. they're leaving small businesses to suffer. now is a time, a pain threshold has been hit in this country. >> mayor brown, i want your thoughts about the economy. it looks to me that a lot of jobs in this business and all kinds of businesses have lost the need for manpower. go to a bank, there's hardly anybody there. there's an atm. go to a gas station, there's one person hiding behind a shield, a bulletproof shield, who's dealing you money out behind a crack. you've got television, no more cameraman. i don't see anyone in front of

me anymore. and it's what's going on. how do you change that structural reality of the american economy, where these businesses have found ways not to hire people? >> well, you don't need to change it. what you need to do is take the picture out of harry bridge's book from a long time. when it was clear on the ports and the waterfront of san francisco we would be going to vans, we would be going to lifters, we no longer needed the manpower, he went to the people that controlled that industry and he said, share in the benefits that are going to come from this technology, technological achievement, share it with the workers. and that's why you've had labor piece on the waterfront. the benefits were shared with the workers. america needs to begin to think that way about technology and the advances in the absence of a cameraman, and we need to know that that camera is not going to buy a refrigerator. the guy pushing the camera would

have. we'd better figure out how to give him the money to let him buy the refrigerator or there'll be no refrigerators. >> willie brown for president of the afl-cio. but i tell you, that's what needs to be done. i agree with you. this is a conversation that's got to go on. i look around these cities, like philly, where i was yesterday. everything really beautiful, the parks, the bridges, every public structure, every monument was built in the '30s. how come nothing's been built since? nothing really good looking. we had no money back then and we built stuff. how come when we have all the money now, we're not building anything? there's jobs to be done. thank you, van jones and mayor brown. up next, what's herman cain think of his fellow republican presidential candidates? this is a little trivial, but fascinating. can he play a little word association with jay leno? you bet. he's coming up next on the side show. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. [ kristy ] my mom is well...weird.

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back to "hardball." now for the side show. first off, taking off on the victory lap. gop candidate herman cain joined some time in the spotlight this past weekend and broadcasted his opinions on a number of topics. first off, let's hear him shed some light on his opponents during his appearance on "the tonight show" on friday. >> mitt romney? >> mitt romney, good hair. >> good hair. ron paul? >> grumpy old man. >> grumpy old man. rick santorum? >> stressed. >> stressed. jon huntsman? >> he wears ties just like mr. cain. >> really? >> you notice that? >> i didn't notice that. >> actually, i do recall those matching ties being pointed out in the course of a debate. anyway, then there were some more under the radar issues that cain has already put on his list of priorities should he make it to the white house, including a

remix of "hail to the chief," that music that accompanies the president at point appearances. let's listen. >> what's the problem with "hail to the chief"? >> well, it's traditional. i think "hail to the chief" needs a little bit fresher sound. >> so hip hop? >> it won't be hip hop. i might put some gospel beats into the "hail to the chief," okay? >> hmm, whimsy comes before the fall. i don't know about that guy. and now for the big number. time for a history lesson. a new poll by "60 minutes" and "vanity fair" put the term gop to the test, you know, grand old party. it's tossed around quite a bit in reference to the republican party, a surprising low number of people actually were aware of what it stands for, even members of the republican party. what's the verdict? how many of the republicans polled correctly identified the meaning of gop in a multiple choice setup. multiple choice! multiple choice! just 51%. just about half. other choices included government of the people and even grumpy old people.

well, 51% is all they got. i think they should change the nickname if nobody knows what it is. that's tonight's big number. up next, chris christie could decide to get into the republican race any day now, even wednesday. but do republicans know what they would be getting from the new jersey governor? he's a lot more liberal than a lot of people think. he's nor jersey than west coast or arizona. and don't forget, our special hour of "hardball" coming up at 7:00 tonight eastern. it's going to be a great show. the great democratic debate. politicians, activists, journalists and historians all debating whether president obama should go left in this campaign and get re-elected or stick to the center like clinton did and get re-elected that way. what's the smart move for the president? you're watching "hardball" and we'll be back at 7:00 with the big debate only on msnbc. what's in the mail? well, it just might surprise you. because this is how people and business connect. feeling safe and secure that important letters and information don't get lost in thin air. or disappear with a click.

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i'm milissa rehberger with your cnbc market wrap.

stocks kicking off a new quarter with a big sell-off. the dow jones industrials plunging 258 points. the s&p 500 tumbled 32. and the nasdaq taking the biggest hit, down 79 points. greece is admitting that it will miss deficit targets despite harsh new austerity measures, bringing it closer to default. that news overshadowed an uptick in solid manufacturing in september that led to more production and more hiring. and construction spending rebounded in august as outlays kicked in. in stocks, chipmakers took a beating on a report showing a soaring demand for tablet pcs being offset by slowing demand in other areas. american airline's parent company amr shares were halted several times amidst rumors that it could be heading for bankruptcy. and an airline trade group said the entire industry could be headed for a downturn. that's it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. now back to "hardball."

welcome back to "hardball." the political world is waiting for chris christie, the governor of new jersey, to decide whether to run for president or not, and we may have word as early as wednesday, so it's getting close. christie's got republican establishment types rushing for him to run in a field of competitors, which have been described as weak. what are the reasons chris christie wouldn't run? john ferry, a republican strategy joins us. i like the guy, i'm trying to figure out what's good for him and good for the country. my sense is, he'll have a good hour or two once he announces, and then be in a tough situation. he's for gun control, for climate change. all these will cause trouble with the base of the republican party. he may have to do some dueling with people right for the start. >> well, chris, no one's going

to give this to chris christie. that's why if he's going to run, he's got to get in. time's awasting. the rick perry forces, the mitt romney forces, they're going to attack him. herman cain's already attacked him. listen, he's got a record, he's got a lot of positions that a lot of the republican base doesn't like. he's such a big figure, such an authentic figure that people like him and they want him to get in, but you know, no one gives you this job. you've got to run for it. >> do you think, you know, i use this term very carefully. he's a real pisser, he's a guy that loves to fight with people and enjoys if combat of daily life. i'm sure he enjoys back and forth the cab drivers, not being gross about it, but just enjoying that back and forth. do you think his natural love of that sport of just back and forthing it, you know, being mouthy, which is very attractive to certainly my family back in jersey people, i spent some time with yesterday, they like him, republicans in jersey. is that going to sell out in the

boony where people are much more gun oriented, driven by that religion, or do they like his personality? >> i think people are so frustrated with government at the local, state, and federal level that they want someone big to take it on. they want that brassy personal to take on the unions, especially the republican base. and i do think that it will translate beyond new jersey, but, you know, we don't know about chris christie's record, especially the rest of the country. so, you know, we don't know if it's going to translate. it didn't really particularly translate well for rudy giuliani, who had the same kind of tough outlook on life and tough angle and tough, you know, talk. so we'll see. you know, it's been a long time since someone from new york kind of translated that well across the country. >> you know, todd, i would love to be a politician like this guy, but i don't know how long i could get away with it. i can't imagine being a democratic version of this fellow and getting away -- todd devine, you're joining us now on

the democratic side. could a democrat get away with being this politically incorrect and having fun with -- taking on callers and trashing people because you don't like the questions they ask? >> no, chris, i don't think they could. i think it's a thin line between someone who's authentic and tough and being a bully and christie's getting close to that line. but i think he's smart enough to know -- >> why do people like him, then? wait a minute. 54% in jersey right now. >> i think people like the fact that east being blunt, it looks like he's taking on problems. but i think he has to realize, to run for president, the process's very difficult. it's enormously front loaded. getting on the ballot is very difficult. fund-raising at $2,500 a pop is very tough. i don't think there's time for him to do and i think they're smart enough to figure that out. >> who's he hurt if he gets in? last question and i'll be back to john? does he hurt the east coast -- another east coaster like romney or take on tough-talking guy from texas, perry? who's he hurt most? >> he hurts romney and hurts romney a lot. >> is that true, john?

>> i don't think so. i think a lot of the folks who are not sure where they're going to go, not really with romney right now, i think he fills a void -- >> that's what he said. that's what he just said. he said he hurts romney because he takes votes away from romney. >> i don't think he takes vote away, i think he fills a void that people who have not gone to romney yet -- >> i hear you saying the same thing. anyway, here's cain, by the way, going after the governor of new jersey, chris christie, this week saying crazy stuff. this is where herman cain is crazy. he's talking about sharia law in jersey. here he is. >> this sharia law business is crap. it's just crazy. and i'm tired of dealing with the crazies. >> so, he's saying that those kind of fears that you espouse and others are crazy. what do you say to that? >> some people would infuse sharia law in our court system if we allow it. i honestly believe that. so even if he calls he crazy, i am going to make sure that they

don't infuse it little by little by little. i'm sticking to it. american laws and american courts, period. >> i think the guy's getting hungry, john. i think herman cain has look at the numbers. he thinks he's within fighting distance of getting to the top and willing to work for every nut case out there. there is no sharia law. the united states court system does not recognize it in jersey or anywhere else. to keep saying it is like the old fluoridation nuts from the '50s. they're going to put crazy stuff in my water and turn me into a communist. this is paranoid talk. john, i know you may not agree, but that's my thoughs. >> i think there's plenty of other issues to be worried about with the country. sharia law is not going to take over the country. i'm with chris christie on this one. >> why do you think cain did that? for the reason i believe he did, because he thinks he's got a shot at grabbing enough votes now that he might win this derby. >> i think he actually believes it. i think he's wrong. >> what's worse? complete exploitation of the yahoos or being with one of

them? i have to go back to todd, who's chuckling at the joy you're getting out of this thing. >> listen, i think christie's remark right there is the reason he's popular with, you know, people, a lot of people in the country, he's making sense, it's ridiculous, he dismisses it as such. but, you know, that's great for him in a democratic primary. it's not great in a republican primary. it's a very conservative contest. the fact is, when his record and his positions on issues get out there, his appeal's going to start to drop. and i think they're smart enough to realize that. >> what would he be like against obama? man to man? head to head? >> i think he'd beat him. >> listen -- well, you know, i -- i think if chris christie gets into this process and can somehow survive the nominating process, you know, i think the election -- we're a long way off from this election. we have no idea how he's -- >> in other words, he'd beat him. >> well, i think he's -- >> right now, we don't know who's going to win the election. i think it's a long way off. >> i think he seizes the the middle, chris, and i think the right goes with him. i think he wins the election if he gets the nomination. the big question is, does he get the nomination. my guess is he probably doesn't

run. >> my guess is that. john, do you agree with that? i think he's not going to run, because it's so close. it's three months. but then again, if he ever wants to be president, right now. give it up if you're not taking it now, right, john? >> you've got to run if you're going to do it. he should have done it three months ago. >> the next best thing to three months ago is tomorrow morning. i've said that before. thank you john and thank you, tad. up next, the predator drone strike friday that killed the american-born al qaeda leader was a military vehicle, but was it legal? was it right? let's talk about it. the obama administration is getting criticism from the far right and the aclu left. legitimate complaints, but i don't think they're get the war of the day.

every time a local business opens its doors or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business. it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities. that's why we extended $7.8 billion to small businesses across the country so far this year. because the more we help them, the more we help make opportunity possible. my old boss and hero tip o'neill recently -- actually, not recently, was famous for saying, all politics is local.

and now a new gallup poll shows that pretty much all trust in politics right now is local. two-thirds of americans say they have a fair or great deal of trust in their local government. another six in ten say the same thing about their state government. it's a fair cry from how voters feel about federal government. only three in ten trust the u.s. congress. the congress is really low right now. we'll be right back. i'm robert shapiro. over a million people have discovered how easy it is to use legalzoom for important legal documents. so start your business, protect your family, launch your dreams. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side.

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saxby chambliss, the leaders of the senate intelligence committee, issued a joint statement commending the move. they said, "anwar al awlaki posed a significant and imminent threat to the united states as a senior leader of al qaeda in the arabian peninsula and an extremist preacher intent on recruiting radicals inside and outside this country. awlaki declared war on the united states and inspired and planned attacks against us." well, some libertarians argued, however, that as an american citizen, awlaki should not have been targeted for assassination without any due process. here was republican presidential candidate ron paul on friday. >> awlaki was born here, he's an american citizen, he was never tried or charges for any crimes. nobody knows if he ever killed anybody. we know that he might have been associated with the underwear bomber, but if the american people accept this blindly and casually, that we now have an accepted practice of the president assassinating people

who he thinks are bad guys, i think it's sad. >> well, was it legal and was it sad? does it set a dangerous precedent? right now we're joined by gary johnson, the former governor of new mexico. he's currently running for the republican presidential nomination, and josh marshall, the founder and editor of talking points memo. gentleman, thank you for joining us. i said earlier tonight, i thought it was a good act, an important act for america to defend itself. governor, do you think it was a good thing for us to do for us to knock this guy out, involved with the underwear bomber, involved prop begaganda wise, a part of al qaeda in the arabia peninsula. >> chris, maybe it was a good thing to do, but as the president of the united states, i would be really transparent as reasons for doing this. look, this has never happened before. we're denying him due process of

guilt, innocence aside this is new precedence being denied due process. isn't that the -- kind of the cornerstone of the u.s. constitution? >> what would you have done? >> well, maybe i would have done the same thing but i would have been really transparent. here is the threat this guy poses. here's what he has done. i am ordering an assassination on this individual. >> put out a press release before you make the attack? >> well, so he was taken to court. awlaki's father asked to stay that order. and in court the administration invoked executive privilege. they weren't going to let that information out. well, with that precedent, doesn't that carry on to potentially you and i at some point? i mean, this -- >> with al qaeda in the arabian peninsula working to attack the

united states encouraging people in the united states, supporting the underwear bomber i don't think i'm going to slip into that role. my question to you is i want to go back to what you recommend. you're running for president of the united states, governor. tell me what wow have done. using these words like transparency, should he have made an announcement? is that what you're saying? announce to the world i'm going after awlaki. by the way, go underground and hide somewhere while i plan my attack. that sounds crazy. why would you tell a guy you're coming to get him? >> no. he issued an assassination order, chris. he said go -- >> you don't announce it. >> he put an assassination order out on awlaki a couple years ago. that's been in place. but why did he do that? as an american citizen i'd like to know why he ordered an assassination on a fellow u.s. citizen. guilt/innocence aside where is the due process? >> so okay. let's go to josh marshall. do you have a view on this, josh? >> yeah. you know, i don't think it's a

problem. i think that when you -- even if you are an american citizen if you are levying war against the united states a lot of the protections of american citizenship go by the wayside. i think that's both logical and i think there is a lot of judicial precedence for that as well. this is not a case where, you know, this is not someone you can easily go and arrest. i don't see the argument that you -- the united states can't do anything besides actually go in with some sort of s.w.a.t. team and arrest him. just because he's an american citizen. i think both on the merits, legally speaking, again, i think this is someone who is a key leader in an organization that is levying war against the united states. i think legally by that measure it's permissible. and again, i think logically and practically, i think you have to have -- you have to explain what the other course of action would be. if this -- if he was actually still in new mexico, and he was

doing this, and it was practical to arrest him, i think that would be preferable. do i think it is illegal or constitutionally a problem that they did it this way? no i really don't. i agree you can come up with these type arguments that, you know, next they're going to decide, chris, you gave obama a hard time on tv last night and they're going to take you out. but, you know, i don't think that is a -- i don't think that is a credible analogy. one thing i do think is very important here is that what i understand at least is this was an explicit presidential directive. i do think given the issues tied to taking any kind of action like this toward an american citizen it's important that the u.s. president signs a document, makes a finding. >> a finding. thank you so much. governor, thank you. i think you were saying the same thing. thank you so much for joining us. josh marshall you want transparency. when we return let me finish with the subject of our big show

coming up an hour from now. should president obama campaign from the left as his base would certainly like with a lot of passion or should he aim to go for the center and vote the way clinton did and got re-elected in '96. you're watching "hardball" with a big one coming up in an hour only on msnbc. [ sighs ] can't wait 'til morning. wait, it's morning in china... [ male announcer ] it's sweet. it's nutty. it's absolutely delicious. kellogg's® crunchy nut™. it's morning somewhere™. it's absolutwhoa.elicious. kellogg's® crunchy nut™. whoa. how do you top great vacations? whoa. getting twice the points on great vacations. whoa! use chase sapphire preferred and now get two times the points on travel, and two times the points on dining and no foreign transaction fees. whoa! chase sapphire preferred. a card of a different color. apply now at chasesapphire.com/preferred

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let me finish with this. tonight at 7:00 eastern i want you to stay right here on msnbc for the great democratic debate. should president obama run for

re-election as a passionate progressive daring to be called radical by his enemies? should he shoot the moon like fdr did back in 1936? or should he head closer to the center, stake out common ground with independents warning against the radicalism of the right? should he play it shrewd like clinton did in '96? think of the stakes. if he gets it right he and the democrats get four more years to get the economy finally back on track with full employment again the norm. the country heading forward to greener pastures, bluer skies, continuing the long, good march for a protected climate, more tolerant, fully employed society. if he blows this election the tea partiers and neo cons come roaring back emptying out the heritage foundation and american enterprise institute erecting statues to dick cheney, celebrating the death penalty, and ending environmental protection as we know it. punishing gays, breaking unions, starting more wars and enacting one more giant tax cut for

therich or worse. can you think of a more important debate? let's get on it tonight at 7:00 starting with the great michael moore and brilliant mark penn. for the second round of the debate that'll be fought by two serious politicians senator bernie sanders of vermont versus former pennsylvania governor ed rende rendell. rendell, an unapologetic clinton ally will make the case for moderation in the 2012 race. in the third round joan slate will take on clarence page of the chicago tribune. the terrain will be the net roots and the newspapers and the net works and how to win the battle there. then we step into history with doug brinkley of rice university against sam tanahouse of the "new york times." what does history tell us about what race president obama would be smart to run? the great democratic debate tonight one hour from now here on msnbc. that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. now it's time for politics nation with the reverend al