well, good tuesday afternoon to you. i am dylan ratigan. it's very nice to see you from midtown. president obama pushing his american jobs act verbally, now in texas. this the same jobs act the house republicans say is dead on arrival. but don't blame the republicans in the senate. not a single democrat has bothered to co-sponsor it, so it's doa there, not to mention it's a pittance of the 30 million jobs we have lost, so the entire thing is little more than political pro wrestling that all of us are fundamentally disgusted by. now, as you know, if you've been watching the show the past week, none of us believe that we will be able to honestly address the root causes of all of this until we end the ability for private interests to auction off control of our government. that is why we're all so mad as

hell. in fact, more than 90,000 of us are already on board for a get money out campaign to force a debate around a constitutional amendment. and we'll tell you how you can get involved later on in the show, because to get money out, we need a coalition that spans across the political spectrum, one of shared principle, a shared principle that a bought government will never serve america's interests, because it is being sold at auction. this can't be just the right or the left or the center. we begin today with roger hickey, codirector of the campaign for america's future. and right after roger, one of the tea party cofounders conservative, carl denninger. but roger, i'll begin with you. how do you feel about being booked on a panel that has you with sequenced with a conservative tea partier and i suspect you both agree? >> hey, listen, dylan, i have a lot of respect for what the tea party has done in terms of going out and fighting for what they believe in, and there's a lot of overlap between my organization and the rank and file of the tea

party. for example, we don't think it's -- most tea party people think it's a good idea to cut social security and medicare benefits. we have a lot of things in common. >> but before -- i feel like everybody wants to get lost in what their policy ideas are, from war to banks to energy. i have got a lot of ideas. i'm sure that you do. and yours may be the best ideas that ever walked the face of the earth. but what good is an idea if your government is based on an auction? >> well, you're absolutely right. corporate power and the money that's sloshing around in politics that buys every politician, to some extent, has to be removed. and i applaud what you're doing. we've been doing this take back the american dream conference here in washington for the last two days. and we're talking about the power of the corporations to buy elections and that's got to be part of what we do if we're going to get what we want in terms of the american dream.

we can't let them keep, as you say -- >> auctioning. >> -- creating a financial system that undermines all of our futures. >> what do you see as the greatest personal suffering americans are enduring right now because their government is being sold at auction? >> well, undoubtedly, it's the lack of jobs. people are really, really suffering, all over the country, because they're either losing their jobs, they've lost their jobs, they're unemployed or they fear that that's going to happen. they're losing income and people are struggling just to keep families together. they know that this recession, which we're still in, was started by excessive financial games that the banking system has been playing for years, manipulating our futures and so this conference that we're at, take back the american dream is designed to say, we need some people power in the equation, we've got to take it back from the big money and we've got to

get the politicians talking about things like jobs. that's why we're going to capitol hill tomorrow for a big rally, demanding that the politicians get to work and stop claiming that they're powerless to do anything. >> well, maybe they are powerless to do anything, because if somebody rejects the financiers that are auctioning them off, 94% of the time, the person who rejects the financiers loses. in other words, in order for me to be a political pundit on msnbc next year, i don't need to read any poll data, i don't need to see what anybody looks like. i don't need to worry about what state they're from. i don't need to go red state, blue state, old, young, all that. all i need to do is see who raised the most money and i'm quite sure the political candidates are doing the same thing. so it's easy to say, well, you should do it, but have we not trapped our politicians inside of an auction and then we're saying to them, don't auction yourself off. however, if you decide not to participate in the auction, you're fired. >> dylan, i completely support your idea of getting money completely out of politics.

but i don't want to give the politicians that easy out, to say, well, i can't do it, because my -- the people who finance my campaign won't let me do it. i believe that if the american people, who are waking up now, and you can see them in these protests all over the country, if the american people say, do the right thing and we've got your back, and doing the right thing in part means getting money out of politics, the constitutional amendment that you're talking about, we've got to say to the politicians, say no to big money, we will elect you, and then we can get on with the big kinds of reform that we need, including creating jobs and getting money out of politics. >> i feel like that that's a platform for 2012, get the money out, get the jobs in. pretty simple stuff, right? >> that's exactly what we're saying. get the money out, get to work on creating jobs right now. and by the way, don't cut those programs that we depend on like social security and medicare. that's something that every candidate in the country could win on if they go to their voters and say, that's what i'm

for. and that's what this take back the american dream movement is all about. >> and if people want to learn more about that movement, how do they learn more about what you're doing? >> well, you can go to ourfuture.org. you can find out about the rebuild the dream movement. and you can create an american dream movement right in your own community. you don't have to wait for any authorization. it's a -- we're taking a leaf off the tea party. it's a decentralized movement that we've got to build of citizen activists all over the country, who empower themselves to get the politicians to do what we want and to rebuild the american dream. >> if you were to look at the common ground that you see between yourself, not on ideas, but on principles, with the protesters down on wall street, with the tea partyers in texas, with lawrence lesting's group up in harvard, with hippies in california, what would you say,

do you think, is the most common thread that everybody shares? >> i think it's the suspicion of concentrated financial power, especially in wall street. but in corporate america all over the place. and it's a demand that the big guys, the wealthy, have to pay their fair share for getting wealthy here in america. they've got to be part of the solution. so i think that is in common, certainly, with the people down on wall street, certainly with the rebuild the dream movement, and it's a big element of the tea party as well. >> and what do you think we all can do, whether it's you and the power that you wield with your organization, myself, and many others, to make sure that we align with each other on what we agree to as opposed to fall into fighting over the next year about what we don't? >> listen, we need to go to the politicians and say, you want a future, you want to represent us in washington? get to work on these priorities.

jobs, getting money out of politics, reforming the financial system. we've got to make this election, which is one of the most important in our lifetimes, the defining election that gets rid of the deadwood, who wants to simply stay there and take big corporate money, and put in new -- >> or any money. or any money. doesn't have to be corporate money, but any money. >> yeah. but it's going to take people power in order to do that, it's going to take people power in order to elect people who are determined to get money out of politics and start building jobs again. >> yeah. that's it. get the money out, get the jobs in, roger. congratulations on how effective you have been up to this point. thank you for participating with us and helping us expand our message. >> thanks what you're doing, dylan. it's really important. >> thanks, roger. coming up here on "the d.r. show," you've heard it from the progressives. when we come back, a founding voice in the conservative tea party movement on why they are

mad as hell too and where the common ground lies. this is not about your specific ideas and mechanics. this is about all of our shared principles and goals. jobs in and money out. plus, guess who came with me last night to occupy wall street. >> put your hand on your heart -- >> put your hand on your heart. >> and just ask yourself internally -- >> and just ask yourself internally -- >> what kind of world do i want to live in? >> what kind of world do i want to live in? >> deepak chopra at the general assembly in zucati park last night and out with what may be his most important book yet. he joins us along with his co-author, and i might add, steven hawkings' ghost writer pitting science against spirituality. can they be resolved? and spy game. we're talking digital espionage in the 21st century.

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all right. as you know, we're into our third week of protests across this country. occupy wall street here in new york in week three. there you can see a variety of cities. you probably know by now, i've been spending each evening down in zuccotti park, learning and trying to figure out what exactly it is that binds all these people. the protests are growing, spreading across the united states. l.a., chicago, boston, just to name a few.

now, of course, it's being compared loosely to the tea party's beginnings more than two years ago. i was a tea partier at its beginning, on the belief that a principled group would confront a bought government by the banking system. that never happened. i also thought barack obama was going to do that. that didn't happen either. this, for me, is the third possibility to intervene in the unholy alliance between business and state and carl denninger, one of the original tea party voices, writes on marketticker.org, "if the so-called tea party is going to mean anything at all, then it has to get in the middle of this debate and protest movement right now and amplify the voice that represents common ground." karl joins us now live from florida. karl, what do you think that common ground is? >> i think the really bottom line here is we have to look towards not just the corruption in the electoral process that comes from all of the money that's there, but that among the

process that has nothing to do with elections. let's look at hank paulson. he runs goldman sachs. he goes to the government regulators twice, gets them to drop leverage limits on the investment banks. they blow up a couple of years later while he's treasury secretary, and then we get to bail out if banks that blew up because they did stupid things with the leverage that he went and lobbied to get removed. >> you can't make it up, carl, you can't make it up. >> tim geithner's the same story. we have him as treasury secretary. he was the chief regulator of all of these important banks. he does not stop them from getting in over their heads. they blow up and he gets rewarded by being the treasury secretary. we did not vote for either hank paulson or tim geithner. >> one thing, and i have been talking to the panel about this and others, that perplexes me, or really, i don't know, that really, i shouldn't say perplexes me, gives me anxiety, but also gives me motivation. it's why i'm working as hard as

i am, it's clear there's an opportunity for factions in the tea party, factions in the progressive movement, factions in the libertarian community, factions within the status quo political establishment, for that matter, to unify around a singular set of principles, even if they disagree around ideas. do you agree with me on that? and how do we build bridges to one another to these principles so we don't get bamboozled or screw it up like they did with obama and the tea party, because i'm not sure how many more whiffs we can afford. >> well, that's absolutely true, dylan. i think that the bottom line here is that we have to get the financialization out of these instruments and organs within our system. medical care is expensive, because it has been financialized. education is expensive because it has been financialized. houses are expensive because they've been financialized. this has to stop. we have built a 30-year pyramid scheme and it's collapsing around us. look at what's going on over in

greece. look at what is going on over in china. and look at what's going on over here in the united states. just take a look at our stock market. does that not tell you everything you need to know? >> the other thing, i was talking to martin bashir about this earlier upstairs, you look at the level of education for our children and how smart and how ambitious and how aspirational they are, and the shame for putting those young people into a jobs market that is in a free fall, because our government was bought to facilitate an extraction. it sickens me, quite honestly. my concern, karl, is that we'll get lost in a war of ideas. everybody's got their idea, and everyone wants to know from the occupy wall streeters, what are your demands?! give us your list! the fact of the matter is, those sorts of debates, as we know, are a one-way ticket to nowhere. how do we fight the instincts in our own egos and the environment that want to bait us into a war

of ideas when what we need is an army of principle. >> you have to simplify these things that we agree on, it's wrong to steal, it's wrong to defraud, we cannot allow people to have a pass, and you do not move forward and forget about what happened. you have to look at this as stop the looting and start the prosecuting. it's what we began with in twlec2007 and 2008 and it's no less relevant today than it was then. >> i've been spending time with your pal down in zuccotti park, would you come up there? >> it would be very single for me to do, i'm a single parent. >> maybe we'll send a ticket for both of you and make a new york trip of it for christmas or something if the kids make it to winter. our megapanel is here, karen, susan, and jimmy. you were nodding through that conversation. >> i think it's interesting, these are some of the organizational questions that this group down there is starting to think about. and i think other groups that feel an alignment with some of what they're saying --

>> like me. i agree with those guy. >> are saying, how do we not destroy what they have been able to build. because it's amazing how they've done it. they've done it in very different ways than even traditional organizing. >> it's an energy wave. >> but there are some best practices if this movement is going to go to the next level. so how do you -- and i think there's a lot of questions -- >> you say best practices in terms of creating lists of demands and ideas or best practices in terms of organization? because i would dispute the ideas -- >> a little bit of both. but at some point, there has to be a -- >> why not principles? >> that's fine, but at some point, that principle, how do we enact that? >> but why should you or i put upon a bunch of kids to solve that problem, when the kids don't -- or protesters, for that matter -- are really the ones saying, we know you're screwing us, and the elite are then saying, well, tell us what you would do? which i think is a copout to them. >> it's not, what do you do, it's what do they want? >> what they want is they want to end a bought government. they are tired of having a government that is for sale.

>> but there's a difference in, for example, when they started things, they've been all over the place. your message is so exact -- >> i disagree. i disagree. their message is a one-sentence message. the one thing we all have in common is we are the 99% -- this is their statement -- we will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of 1%. their message is in a single sentence -- go quickly and i want to go to chris christie. >> so let's say government comes back and says, this is what we're going to do. if these guys don't know if they're being snowballed again, that's why i say they should have some idea what it's going to take to make that happen. >> all it takes, you've got to not be able to buy them. if you know the problem is there's an auction, you've got to be able to stop the auction. what about chris christie, jimmy, and how do you interpret his decision -- do we have the sound bite, by the way? i think we do. take a look at chris christie today. >> now is not my time. so new jersey, whether you like it or not, you're stuck with me. >> whether you like chris christie or not, that's a good line. your thoughts on his decision

and how does the energy wave that we're talking about and that we're seeing reconcile with the republican presidential field and for that matter barack obama, jimmy? >> i think there are a lot of people in the democratic party that are probably breathing a big sigh of relief right now. i think there are a lot of people in the republican party that are breathing a bigger sigh of relief, because they don't want to do this, i'll vote for that guy, okay? because that guy's a moderate. that guy is the governor of new jersey. >> you're saying that republicans look at a chris christie, in your opinion, as -- >> republicans only think that the one person out there, so far, that can beat barack obama is chris christie. >> you're saying strategically the republican leadership believes that. >> that's exactly right, but the problem is, they don't want to vote for that guy. will they do the smell test, which is pinch the nose and vote for the guy they don't agree, but -- >> you guys have done campaigns. my question for you guys is, regardless of whatever the chris christie variables are, is there a rhythm thing with things like this? in other words, when you get a chance, like chris christie has to get to ride a wave like this,

is this a once in a lifetime thing, or can you hang on? >> that's what makes it so -- christie's decision so difficult. when you look at the next four to eight years, this is, in fact, on paper, his time. but you never have a -- you never want a candidate who's going to run because someone else put him up to it or they felt that this was not their time. and that's why he is so smart. and it's this kind of leadership that, in fact, rides on that wave, because he's calling it way he sees it. and that's what was so attractive. and that's what continues to make him so attractive. >> but i think that's going to make people like him more. i take issue at what jimmy was saying. a month ago, everyone thought perry was the answer. part of the problem we're seeing, the republican party's all over the place. for chris christie, i respect the fact -- people in politics have very healthy egos, and i respect the fact he took it on his own, talked to his family, took it in his own heart and said, this is not the time for me. >> how does that not jive with

what i said? >> you said chris christie, i said, three weeks ago they thought that perry was the answer. my point is, there's "the answer" every month or so with these guys. >> and you with talk about a republican establishment. right now looking at this field of candidates and how things are changing, there is no establishment. >> so crossroads gps, karl rove, dick armey, there's no -- >> because that's the bankroll, jimmy? >> that's who's going to bank this election. $250 million. >> but they're already doing it. and let's face it, the establishment right now, if you want to call those money people and that group part of the party, they're banking the senate. they're not banking on the president. >> got to bounce. we'll stick around -- we'll be back in one second. i don't know what we're doing, we're taking a commercial. up next, america the vulnerable, keeping our country safe in the age of digital espionage. our specialist, former top level national security agency insider, after this. [ shapiro ] at legalzoom, you can take care of virtually all your important legal matters in just minutes.

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developing news here in new york, away from all of the news of the political universe. a massive rescue effort has just begun for the fifth and final passenger of a helicopter that went down in the east river. as of now, the chopper is beneath the surface, submerged. divers are in the water, looking for the woman. the pilot made it to land on his own. he's being treated at a local hospital along with three others. no words on why the chopper went down. it had just taken off from a helipad on the river bank. the passengers are reportedly listed as a tourists in town from london. if and when we get any information on that breaking story here on msnbc, we'll be sure to get that to you. in the meantime, we change gears back to the program. as we grew up, of course, all of us, with stories of espionage, jumping out of airplanes,

leading double lives, fake names, disguises, maybe a mustache and some glasses. but our next guest says today's spy versus spy is taking place across servers and databases. we've all heard of wikileaks, but there are many, many other examples we've never heard of, so says our next guest. american has had submarine technology, a new radar system, battle plans stolen by these new digital special agents and our specialist is a former senior council at the national security agency in our country, and says that america is supposed in ways you would not believe. joel brenner joins us, "america the vulnerable." joel, on the one hand, people say, don't tell people we're exposed, what are you, crazy? and on the other hand, it's about time somebody said this so we can deal with the problem. what is the greatest vulnerability that we have, that we're not dealing with? >> we've taken a system that was designed in the '80s for a small, trusted group of researchers in the governments and universities and turned

entitle the backbone of our commerce, our military communications, and increasingly, even our electricity grid. and it's porous and it's open and it can be taken down and information can be stolen from it. that's the problem and it's pervasive. >> the fact of the matter is, unless you come up with a new internet, that's unavoidable, correct? >> well, i think, to some extent, we're going to have to get used to living in a world that's much more transparent at every level. personal, corporate, and national. secrets are harder and harder to keep. that's an aspect of life, whether one likes it or not, and that has personal implications too. you can haven't unlimited amounts of privacy and unlimited amounts of transparency. they don't -- we have -- >> i think we saw that with anthony weiner recently. >> go ahead, jimmy. >> did you really have to bring up anthony weiner. >> the universe has many examples. >> here's my question for you.

do you bank online? >> not mobile. i don't bank mobile mobily onli. >> do you buy anything on the internet? >> i do. >> do you pay with your credit card on the internet? >> i do. >> okay. >> why no banking online? is there something we're missing? >> you can see where jimmy's going. what is your view of personal security -- >> if you're telling me that everything's out, that tells me i shouldn't do a damned thing online. >> if you don't want anything known about you, you can't do anything online. >> i'm on tv right now. i mean -- >> you're out there hanging out. but you've told your grocer a lot about your habits, you save a buck on a bunch of grapes or a pound of tomatoes by telling him -- >> well, i usually grow that stuff, but, yes, you're right. >> you tell some contractor for the state where you drive because you don't want to use the ez pass or whatever you call it. i do it too. you'd be nuts not to. so lots of things are known about us. we give away this data, because

we find this universe of constant connectivity irresistible. >> but it has a price and we don't pay it until later. >> also, to what you're saying, we don't know that we're intentionally -- i haven't made the choice to give away lots of data, like the so-called enhancements that facebook has recently made, so they can collect more data about me that they can sell. when i use my credit card, they don't ask me if it's okay to sell my spending patterns to people. >> well, if they don't -- if you don't -- if they don't disclose to you what they're doing, within 24 hours, they'll get a sued in a class action. do you read those privacy notices, of course not. they did tell you. my favorite, you go to itunes and click on itunes and download -- it used to be 55, now it's 60-some pages you've got to click through. nobody does that. it's a charade. so on page one, there's an "i agree" button and that's what everybody clicks.

>> just to go back to the spying stuff, that's really what i like -- >> she's the republican in the group, if you haven't figured it out yet. >> we talk about it, you know, spying used to be country spies on other countries, looking into getting their most important defense documents and what have you. what else has -- has that dynamic changed a little bit? it seems now, you hear about corporate espionage and all of that, and governments, in fact, looking at other companies, whether it's at home or abroad. >> or media espionage, for that matter. >> there you go. >> thanks for that question, because it's a huge change in espionage targeting now. and instead of espionage being targeted normally at the state department, defense department, and intelligence agencies, we're finding our companies, western companies, american companies are being targeted relentlessly now, and it's not just for defense technologies, because you happen to work for the defense debate. it's pharmaceuticals, it's aspects of automotive

technology, both gm and ford have lost significant technologies that way. other countries have figured out that if you can't compete with us economically, you can't compete with us militarily or in any other way. so the difference between economic security and national security has really collapsed. it's converged now. and we're not doing a good job of this. and much of corporate america doesn't understand that it's being targeted. i find this particularly a problem with clients of mine, who are smaller businesses, who think they're too small to be targeted. and it isn't true at all. >> are they coming for our petition? >> maybe. you know, who knows? maybe. >> so -- that would be a gad story. >> i was just saying, where it's a very small property, i wasn't even thinking about it, and now you're saying they're coming after the little guy too. so i took you at your advice. >> if you've got some really good technology, dylan, they'll be after it. >> we got nothing. >> is it just governments that

are looking at -- or corporation to corporation, government to -- >> you're seeing both. you're seeing american corporations now having to fend off a tax, done or sponsored by nation states. but you're also seeing corporate on corporate. you had the sap oracle business, for example. and you have a lot of just profit motivated espionage by insiders, corporate insiders, taking technology and going sometimes in this country, sometimes abroad to asia, and starting competing businesses, using our technology. >> wow. thank you for educating us and congratulations on the book. surely it is an effort to educate many, so i wish you the best of luck with this, mr. brenner. thank you so much. >> thanks for having me. >> joel brenner, the book "america the vulnerable," i like your little icon too with the memory stick. very funny. anyway, we'll see you guys later. jimmy, karen, and susan. next year, amanda knox on a plane and expected to arrive in seattle tonight. when we come back, the very latest from her hometown on the

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you'll get all-day relief. for your tired achy feet. for locations, see drscholls.com. thank you... right now amanda knox on route back to the united states, excuse me, flying home to seattle after nearly four years in an italian prison. nbc's stephanie gosk is in seattle, where her loved ones are eagerly and understandably awaiting her arrival. hi, stephanie. >> reporter: hi, dylan. she's expected to touch down here with her family in about 3 1/2 hours. you know, a lot of the friends that we've been speaking to here in seattle say they're concerned that amanda might not truly understand how famous she has become in the last four years. well, when she steps off that plane here at this airport and she sees all of these cameras, i think it's going to become abundantly clear how famous she has become. this journey this morning began in rome. the family flew on a short flight to london. on that flight, a person who was on board said that there was an announcement after anyone had

gotten on board to please respect the privacy of the people on the plane, an obvious reference to their famous passengers that are riding alongside them. they are now flying over the atlantic ocean on a british airways flight. they're expected to arrive soon. security is being beefed up here at the airport for their arrival. we expect a press conference, as well as a statement, and the expectation is that that statement will be read by amanda knox, although we don't have any confirmation of that. you know, for the last four years, family and friends have been focused on her release, but there are still many obstacles that remain for amanda now that she is going to be back here and at home. her family has financial troubles, she's going to have to try to regain some sense of normalcy in her life. and there are still legal issues that remain. there is an appeal that is pending by the italian prosecutor. he is going to the appeal to the highest court in italy. if that goes forward, she could be tried in absentia, and that

could lead to a procedure to try to get her back into italy, but at this point, it doesn't look like that is possible. >> stephanie, thank you so much. we'll take a break, and when we return, one of my favorite conversations, and i hope one that you too will enjoy. how do we reconcile science with spirituality? an engaging conversation with deepak chopra and leonard moladnoff. one a spiritual leader and the other a scientist who happened to cowrite steven hawkings book. [ female announcer ] starbucks via® is planted the same... ♪ ...harvested the same... ♪ ...and roasted the same as our other premium coffees. ♪

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that's the cold truth! well, what is the difference between controlling your intent and trying to control a given outcome? we're breaking it down today. and i first want to read you a little something about science and god. it goes like this. it says, "science will never be able to explain why the universe follows laws. so while science often casts doubt on spiritual belief and doctrine, insofar as they make representations about the physical world, science does not, and cannot conclude that god is an illusion." the author of that quote is with us now. he also happens to be one of the leading scientific minds and a physicist, kind of the same

thing, leonard mlodinow. also with us, friend of the program and one of the great spiritual leaders of our world today, deepak chopra. and these two great minds have come together to write "war with of the world views: science versus spirituality," which i believe is a significant and watershed event that the two of you even got together to do this. why did you write what you wrote? why, as the skeptic, as the scientist opposed to the spiritual leader, why did you characterize god the way that you did in the book? >> well, first of all, i wouldn't say i'm opposed to the spiritual leader, but we have our disagreements. and what science talks about is the physical universe and the way things are, the way we observe things. and to the extent that deepak talks about the world in a different way, i oppose him. but the bottom line is that physics is always based on laws. everything you say in physics is based on the law of physics.

if you were to explain those laws, for instance, they would come from another set of laws. physics is not designed to tell you where they came from or tell you why they're there. so on that level, that's another question, it's a question for philosophy. physics starts with the laws based on what we observe and calculate calculate calculates the ramifications and conclusions. >> and you say that spirituality offers insight as to why the laws are the way they are, why the laws behave the way they do, and why intention is really the central force of the way you live your life, regardless of what your beliefs may be. what do you -- >> see, in the same paragraph, leonard also says science cannot, for now, cannot explain consciousness. see that? >> yeah. >> so all the laws that we find out about, they are first conceived in our consciousness. he also talks about the loop that science follows. there's a theory, there's an experiment, and there's an observation. well, the theory's conceived in

our consciousness. the experiment is designed in our consciousness. the observation occurs in our consciousness, and science can't explain consciousness. and yet,out consciousness, there wouldn't be any science. so while he explains the universe very elegantly, the fact of spirituality is not about that, it is about who's trying to explain what to whom. and, you know, science is about self-exploration, self-analysis, self-understanding, self-observation, and asking other questions, you know? why am i here? what's the meaning and purpose of my existence? how can i increase my ability to love or have compassion? what is the mechanism of intent? do i have free will or creativity? where does my imagination come from? you know, science -- >> and you're saying that the physics can't answer those questions? >> well, physics doesn't address those questions. physics doesn't address the meaning of life.

and deepak keeps trying to push physics into doing that. imagine i'm an athlete and i play basketball and my friends play soccer and all of us play different sports. and someone comes along, deepak comes along and says, well, food is the fuel of life, we need food for everything, why aren't you cooks? and i say, that's not what sports is about. science is not -- the meaning of life is crucial to people, and i believe in spirituality, but science is there to talk about the physical universe. and it doesn't address those questions. >> because doesn't the physical universe manifest what is coming from the spiritual universe? in other words, doesn't the physical universe and physics manifest our intent to create? m >> first of all, deepak often talks about another realm that's somehow at play behind physics. so if that's a philosophical element, that's fine, but where we disagree, where that realm controls the physical realm. so if that controlled the

physical realm, there would be miracles, there would be exceptions to the laws of physics. we don't see these -- >> we have another student with his hand up. >> i say, you don't get word of the word supernatural. you know, supernatural is just something you don't have an explanation of. get rid of the word "miracle." life is a miracle by itself, enough, okay? so don't invoke supernaturality or miracles. but he quotes einstein as saying that einstein felt deep reverence at the rationality made manifest in existence. now, you know, does that not imply a rational source? to me, it does. and what is reverence? is that not a spiritual experience? how do you measure reference? can you give it units of mass and energy? how do you measure love? how do you prove that your mother loved you? there are so many things that you cannot prove, but you know them to be true.

so while scientific logic is a very good map for understanding a certain aspect of the truth, it's only a map and it understands only a little bit of that aspect of the truth. because, face it, everything we know about the human, about the universe, is how the universe interacts with the human nervous system and the questions we ask of nature. and unless you say, this is a human universe, it's not as it is, it's as how humans experience it. and unless you answer, what does it mean to be human, it means to think rationally, to feel, to intuit, to imagine, to create, and see from a cosmic perspective, from a perspective of unity consciousness. >> to a physicist, i want to know where did the universe come from and where is it going? what is life all about? and how does genetics work. how does the brain produce the mind, okay? and as a person, i want to know

all these other things. but i think when you mix them up, you get in trouble. >> you guys got to take this show on the road, by the way. you've got -- >> you got to see the end of this. >> we are bonded spiritually, now. >> i can see this. >> i want him reading quantum theory, so that's the give and take. >> well, it's a fun pair. i wish the both of you the best of luck. i am really excited to read this. again, "war of the world views." my two cents from one of the protesters in zuccotti park who came up to me and said, the meaning of life is life. >> that's very good. >> with that said, here's deepak last night at the general assembly. >> simple anger will only per wait what already is out there. >> it was created by greed -- >> it was created by greed -- >> and fear. >> we have to go beyond that.

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well, we've talked a lot about the power of the aligned interest and why they have fused to get money out. our time is an organization that has been standing up for young americans, many of whom do not have a voice in the future of our country, because they don't have the big cash. and again, we live in an auction democracy, and without money, you don't have a lot of power. according to our next guest, that is the very reason the occupy wall street rallies have caught fire with the young, not just in new york city, but in chicago, l.a., boston, kansas city, seattle, all over the country. and joining us now is matt siegel, cofounder of our time,

an organization standing up for the economic interests of young americans. what do you believe is the best way to expand this in a way that it becomes more inclusive, more principled, and doesn't get sucked into the idiotic pro wrestling of american politics? >> keep it decentralized. the second it becomes coopted by a labor union, by a corporation, by a political party -- >> by me and my crazy -- >> by you and your crazy get money out campaign, it loses all credibility. young people today, they're all there and they're identifying with this simple message. we're 99%. 99% of us have gotten the short end of the stick. well, that's very simple. it's also why herman cain's the flavor of the week. because he talks simple politics with his 999 plan. washington is driven and derided by confusing message that obfuscate everything and no one can understand it. this will really determine the 2012 election.

>> i got an interesting letter today from the folks who are planning occupy colleges, who are planning a walkout later this week in solidarity with the overall wave that is breaking in acknowledgement of bought government and the shaft that everybody is getting. they wrote to me the following, "as students, we need to get money out of politics now." i didn't put them up to this, they know that the government is bought. they go on to say, "we are speaking up for the current students, future students, professors, and parents by providing them with the tools to organize their own college walkouts in solidarity with occupy wall street. students are being riddled with mounting the debt and lack of opportunities after graduation. they are the 99%. we are the 99%." this is a universal principle that we're all witnessing at the same time, is it not? >> it 100% is. if you go on ourtime.org and take the poll right now, as to getting money out, 90% of people support it my age, and on top of

that, the financial services industry has already bought off colleges. they're paying head hunter fees, goldman sachs, to get the best and brightest graduates to suck them into that industry, away from public service, away from becoming businessmen and entrepreneurs. >> and energy, health care, whatever. >> it's a major problem. we need the best and the brightest for public service. >> matt, you're doing great work and it's a pleasure to know you. >> good to see you, as always. >> matt siegel, our time. as we all know, whether it's those protests downtown, we all see what's going on, the issue is very fundamental. our country is suffering. record poverty, historic unemployment, a lack of investme investment, a lack of jobs, unprecedented economic inequality, these just a few of the reasons why we believe we must intervene to end the money-based auction of power that has become our so-called democracy. if we are going to even begin to get the kind of debate that we all deserve on health, energy, education, and when i say we, what i mean is me and you.

we have to do this! go to getmoneyout.com. if you want to join the debate, sign the petition and tell a friend about it. this didn't even exist a week ago. and now more than 92,000 of you have joined the digital wave and gotten into this debate. the first big crest of signatures from 100,000 founders that we can take to the steps of congress is in sight within days, probably tomorrow, certainly by the end of the week. congress, we know, won't do this. we must do this. for those of you who have already signed the petition, know that you are part of an expanding, extraordinary wave to get money out and end the buying of our country at auction. continue to make your digital waves and we will ride this straight into 2012.