our feet, instead of living on our knees. thank you for watching. i'm al built union strong. big labor joins the fight against wall street. let's play some "hardball." good evening. i'm michael smerconish in for chris matthews. leading off tonight, uprising. those anti-wall street protesters are getting a big shot in the arm from big labor. powerful unions are joining the demonstrations lending credibility to the cause. we may be watching the start of a populist movement on the left,

but what is it? and what does middle america think about it, and will this anti-wall street fer ver help or hurt president obama as he runs for re-election? that's our top story tonight. plus, 5 million, that's the number of voters in this country that may be disenfranchised by all the new voting laws across the country, laws largely championed and passed by republicans. we'll have the latest on the effort to make it harder for some to vote. then, is it fair to draw conclusions between chris christie's weight and his discipline in the governor says he doesn't mind the jokes, but he says being overweight doesn't mean that he lacks discipline, as some pundits have suggested. and american amanda knox is back home in seattle after successfully appealing her murder conviction in an italian court. let's look at the role public relations played in winning her acquittal. and let me finish with a new low in the civility of our political discourse, the case of hank williams jr. we begin with the demonstrations against wall street. a member of the occupy wall street movement joins us now. tyra, thanks for being with us. define what this movement represents. >> this movement is really a call to arms to the american people to get involved in the political process again, above all else.

we want an active democracy in this country. we want everybody to get informed on the issues, and really if they have frustrations they want to get out, we think something is wrong in corporate america, if you think something is wrong in government, let your voice be heard. come out and we speak our minds and say what we think is wrong and how to fix it, government has to listen. corporate america has to listen, and we can really start making a change for the american people rather than for corporate greed. >> what are the issues that tie everyone down there on wall street together? what's the common denominator as you see it of the people who are showing up? >> economic justice is definitely one of our biggest issues. we have libertarians down here. we have socialists down here and

everyone in between, republicans, democrats, and they all feel like there's something very unjust about our current economic climate, whether it be the corporate influence in government, whether it be lobbyists influence, and that's definitely one of our largest rallying cries. the thought of accountability, why is no one going to jail over the fact that billions were stolen from the american people after the recession the last five years? why is it that government can just say oops, we're sorry, over the fact that freddie and fannie failed, and we're just angry that the idea of accountability does not apply to those in power. >> allow me to put on the screen what we pulled from your website that discusses what the group is all about, and it says occupy wall street is a leaderless, resistance movement with people of many colors, genders and political persuasions. the one thing we all have in common is that we are the 99% that will no longer tolerate the greed and corruption of the 1%. we are using the revolutionary arab spring tactic to achieve our ends and encourage the use of nonviolence to maximize the safety of all participants.

it occurs to me that the group that you're not representative of, you know, it's not all greed and corruption. i mean, michael bloomberg is a very successful and wealthy guy. steve jobs is a very successful and very wealthy guy. warren buffett. i mean, so it's not a campaign against all those who are wealthy, is it? >> no. it's not a general blanket statement that if you're in the 1% you're somehow bad, but it is a statement that the 1% currently get tax breaks and certain laws that are -- that give them a certain edge that the average american doesn't. warren buffett's secretary, as president obama said the other day, should not be paying more taxes than warren buffett, and we want an equal playing field where everyone has the same chance to fulfill the american dream. >> are you a supporter of free market capitalism? >> i personally absolutely am. i run my own web design business, and without this free market capital system, i wouldn't be able to get to where i am.

>> some have described this movement in revolutionary terms. you can see how it would easily be painted with a broad brush as something that seeks to overturn capitalism, as we know it. >> i think that the word "revolution" scares a lot of people because they assume that means overthrow of the government, but i think we need to have revolutionary ways of thinking about how do we go forward as a nation? do we want to just fix the current system, or are there ways that we can change the current system in which it's going to benefit every single american equally? >> tyler -- >> that's really the discussion we want. >> many thanks for your time. appreciate you being here. >> thank you very much for having me on. >> david corn is an msnbc political analyst and washington editor of "mother jones" magazine. david, is this good news at the white house, as they are watching the footage that we've just shown? how is it being received? >> my guess is that it's not a big enough matter yet. >> getting there. >> for the white house to worry about. i mean, we're all sort of watching this fledgling movement and trying to discern if it's going to, you know, continue and get bigger.

the unions this week, as you know, in new york city and elsewhere, have been endorsing and more importantly been contributing bodies and money to try to expand this movement and, you know, maybe give it a little more political ideological coherence. we'll see if that takes down the road or not, so bad weather is coming in new york city in a couple of weeks. will people be able to maintain the presence in the park in sufficient numbers that the media doesn't just blow this away as a flash in the pan? >> i'm wondering how it plays in middle america. i'm wondering how it plays in the minds of independents who are going to play a critical role, and i ask you to keep that thought in mind. >> right. >> as i roll for you a montage of some of the voices of protesters from around the country. let's all watch and listen. >> sure. >> this is the beginning really of a people's movement, a people's revolution, nonviolent, if you will, in this country, and frankly it cannot be ignored. >> it's for all of you who are tired of watching the banks get bailed out while we get sold out. >> wealth disparity, corporate personhood, these things are

unacceptable, while millions are on the streets starving. >> we as north carolinians have to stand up against the bank corruption and the greed that's going on on wall street. >> there's the rich and there's the poor, and then there was us. and the rich is stepping on our necks trying to squash us down. this is called an uprising, and we are taking back what is ours. >> david, nobody could quarrel with the existence of income disparity that exists today, but when you voice it in terms of a people's revolution, i'm not sure that plays so well for the ds in middle america if this gets tied to that end of the scale, politically speaking. >> i don't know if it's going to be tied to the democrats. the republicans were much more closer ideologically speaking to the tea party types than the democratic party is to the people in zuccotti square. for a social movement to succeed, i do think you need to connect with middle america to a certain degree and people watching.

if they agree with the sentiment, the sentiment here is an 80% proposition in this country, and that is that wall street and corporate america has gotten too much power, and they quite frankly have abused it. they abused it in the last few years. they have too much influence in the political system. i think independents are down with that. i think they understand that, but i think the challenge here is to make the connection with people beyond your -- you know, the anarchist drum circle types who are there, and a good comparison is what happened in wisconsin where you had demonstrations by teachers, fire fighters and police officers and others who really sort of brought the -- the -- the surrounding community in and supported them, and they channeled a lot of electoral power that really caused a problem for the republican governor walker. >> a lot of people are home on their sofa and in their lounger and say do i see myself there? do i see anyone with whom i have a common denominator? let me ask you another political

question. mitt romney said this is dangerous class warfare and today newt gingrich weighed in on the occupy wall street protesters. here's what he said. commentary on the failure of the obama presidency. this was their guy. this was the guy who was bringing hope, change you can believe in, transparency, and bipartisanship. these demonstrations are the deepest proof of obama's bankruptcy as a leader of anything you can see. >> newt says it's a sad commentary on the obama presidency. >> you know, that is one of the most ridiculous comments i've ever heard from newt which really raises the bar pretty high, because if obama had been doing what these demonstrators wanted him to do, newt would be

the first one out there saying that that was bankrupt, so he's just being exploitative and opportunistic, and it's not a serious comment. what we'll see here is that these protesters are tapping into a wide sentiment. two years ago i wrote a piece for "mother jones" magazine asking where's the anger? where's the resentment from middle america about what was happening with bailouts and other matters? it seemed muted at the time, but while obama went ahead and supported the bailout, and i think saved the financial system from its own excesses and did so with the auto bailouts, steps that were very unpopular but perhaps saved the economy from going over a bigger cliff. >> i would say i think it matters greatly and this puts a lot of power in the hands of the media, who or what group of individuals become the face of this movement. >> right. >> i remember there was a tea party event in washington where congressman lewis was subject to some ugly behavior. >> yeah. >> and the more people you get together, you've always got kooks in the crowd and if some misbehave it will characterize

this group. >> that's always a problem and a risk for mass movements. you can't control it. the question now is can it expand beyond the circle that got it going and make those connections with the people on the loungers that you talked about? >> right. >> those people feel the anger, and i think they feel the same fear. >> david, i agree, but they are trying to decide is this my movement, and i think the jury is still out. thank you. >> i agree with you on that. >> thank you. >> new study is coming up, and it finds that 5 million american voters, 5 million, could be disenfranchised by new state laws around the country. that's a huge number, enough to turn an election, and that may be just what the authors of those laws have in mine. those laws have in mind. that's ahead. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] drinking a smoothie with no vegetable nutrition?

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hah-hah! he's my ride home. how much can a snapshot discount save you? call or click today. welcome back to "hardball." since the 2000 election many americans have come to realize the importance of having every vote counted, but many new republican-led statehouses across the country have been leading the charge to rewrite voting laws. in effect making it more difficult for some to vote. the brennan center for justice has published a comprehensive study which shows a staggering number of people may be disenfranchised by the new laws which would require voters to show photo identification at polls, cut back early voting and hinder voter registration efforts. the brennan center study shows legislatures in a total of over 40 states, have introduced new laws including seven states that have already enacted new voter i.d. laws this year.

many have already enacted new voter i.d. laws this year. the new trend which may actively work to nullify the votes has a number of people worried, including president barack obama. listen to what he told me this past friday on my radio program. >> some of these moves in some of the other states that we've seen are trying to make it tougher to vote, restricting ballot access, making it hard on seniors, making it hard on young people. i think that's a big mistake and i have made sure that our justice department is taking a look at what's being done across the country to ensure that people aren't being denied access to the franchise. >> so who will these changes affect the most? joining me now to talk about the brennan center for justice report is michael waldman, the executive director. michael, thanks for being here. how do you get to the 5 million number? how is it that you think that 5 million people could be disenfranchised, and i'll put a graphic up on the screen that may assist. >> well, thanks for having me.

as you say, these are people who might have their votes affected, who might find it a lot harder to vote. one of the biggest factors as you say is these new voter i.d. laws, and i have a driver's license. you have a driver's license, but many of our fellow citizens just don't have a government-issued photo i.d. in fact, the best number is 11%, so when you have this kind of requirement, it actually makes it a lot harder or impossible for those people to vote. >> well, allow me to interrupt you on that score because i know, having had this conversation with my radio audience, many people say, well wait a minute, i show a photo i.d. for every aspect of my life. why shouldn't i show some level of identification to go vote? >> well, and, of course, voting is a right and we want to treat that extra special. it's different than going and renting a video, but the fact is i actually don't have a problem with voter i.d. i have a problem with requiring forms of i.d. that people don't have. there are all kinds of ways of people showing who they are, but

to give you a sense of the political nature of how precisely these laws seem to target certain voters, governor perry in texas just signed a law saying that you can no longer use your university of texas i.d. to vote, but you can use your gun license. that's the kind of political gamesmanship that, unfortunately, is pervading this thing. nobody wants fraud. only eligible people should be able to vote, but my goodness, we ought to be able to come up a way to require i.d. that people actually have. >> let me ask you about another one because i know that efforts for community organizations to engage in voter registration are also contemplated to be curtailed. now, you raise this issue and you hear people say that's justified because what about a.c.o.r.n. in the last cycle. your response? >> folks may not know this but a.c.o.r.n. is out of business and there are safeguards that prevent, even when there's a problem with the name of a person being registered, they actually can't vote. mickey mouse might be on the registration rolls but he can't show up to vote even in orlando

where they know him so you have a situation in a state like florida where there's a new law that really cracks down on nonpartisan voter registration, where the league of women voters, which is not, you know, a well-known subversive sect. it's the league of women voters have shut down their voter registration operation, and these kind of voter registration drives are often a way young people, poor people get to register to vote. >> in other words, i think what i hear you saying is just because there were shenanigans with some individuals who i think had a financial incentive to go out there and register, you know, the whole dallas cowboys, it doesn't mean those individuals actually or anybody showed up and actually voted in those instances. let me ask you about another one, if i might, because you just referenced florida, and i understand governor rick scott has signed into law in florida something that would eliminate the opportunity for voting the sunday before election day. why do you think that would have a disparate effect on different segments of society?

>> you're seeing that in other states as well. you know, this phenomenon of early voting that we've seen in recent years is really very popular. it's a very successful innovation. it lets, you know, working people go and vote who might not be able to vote on a tuesday, and you're seeing in florida and elsewhere that sunday voting has gotten turned off, and it turns out that people who go to church and often they believe vote near the church or get organized at a church might be affected by that, and that turns out quite significantly to affect african-american churches, and to some degree hispanic churches. >> in other words, the custom, the habit, particularly in the minority community, is that that sunday before the election, perhaps because they have heard something from the pulpit but whatever the reason is, that's largely a day when they go out and exercise the franchise, and so if you say no voting the sunday before election day, it will have a disparate effect on the minority community.

>> that's what we think, and it's a good example because one wouldn't think that early voting should have any partisan impact at all. in some years the republicans benefit and in other years the democrats. the way the laws were passed as soon as the republicans took control of these state legislatures, it's pretty clear they were aiming at the democrats, but they hit the voters. >> one final question, if i may. is it your belief that this is a concerted action on the part of the gop statehouses, you know? do you believe that -- i don't want to use the word conspiracy because i don't think conspiracy fits, but do you think they are all acting in concert with one another in a deliberate fashion? i've only got 30 seconds, if you can answer that. >> i don't think it's a conspiracy, but it would certainly be quite a coincidence. it's pretty clear that a lot of these candidates ran arguing there should be these voter restrictions. there are conservative groups who are pushing for this, and we just want to make sure that everybody who is eligible to vote gets to vote. >> we want -- i think we all want the maximum number of people to go out and exercise the franchise and to do it legitimately. >> that's right. >> all right.

>> and that ought to be easy to do without the partisan games on anybody's part. >> michael waldman, many thanks for your report, and thanks for being here. inch my pleasure. up next, does michele bachmann want to impeach president obama? she certainly left the door open. we've got the video, an you can judge for yourself. that's next in the sideshow. you're watching "hardball," only on msnbc. [ male announcer ] if you think "heroes" are only in movies,

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welcome back to "hardball." time now for the sideshow. first up, standing by the supporters. sounds like a decent strategy for a presidential candidate, but really at what cost? last week gop candidate michele bachmann thanked a caller during an appearance on an iowa radio program after he said he'd sooner vote for charles manson than president barack obama. there's a cringeworthy statement. too bad it wasn't a one-time only lapse in judgment. let's take a look at a new example from a bachmann event yesterday.

>> he should be. >> i'll tell you, i agree. >> well, certainly sounds like they are on the same page there, but after eyebrows were raised came the clarification. according to her spokesman, quote, she was not saying that she agrees that obama should be impeached. she agreed with the man on what they were talking about before, that people are frustrated. it did look like she was dodging the question when she gave the guy the pat on the back, the guy who asked it. next up, break out the comedy chops, kind of unexpected coming from massachusetts senate candidate elizabeth warren who, before launching her campaign was trying to get washington to take on wall street. no nonsense there. in last night's democratic debate in her home state of massachusetts warren managed to score some of the biggest laughs of the night. let's listen. >> what superhero would you be and why? >> i'm going for wonder woman. she had such a cool outfit and bracelets.

i mean, they were the whole thing for me so that's what it's going to be. >> to help pay for his law school education scott brown posed for "cosmo." how did you pay your college education? >> i kept my clothes on. >> my hunch is we're going to be seeing that scott brown photo again in the upcoming cycle. now for the big number. the republican national convention set to take place in tampa, florida, is now less than a year away, and local officials down in the sunshine state are starting to get their things in order. and one of the first orders of business, security cameras and lots of them. and we're not talking just on street corners. this is the real deal. cameras on aerial drones, on people's bodies, on top of cars, the whole nine yards. so when all is said and done, how many cameras are on the convention security wish list? 238. a far cry from the grand total of five that currently exists in downtown tampa to keep tabs on traffic. no real surprise that organizers

do not expect the entire list to be granted, but they do estimate that the convention will have protesters. that's tonight's big number, 238 cameras. up next, chris christie doesn't mind jokes about his weight but is it fair for pundits to suggest that his weight means he's not disciplined? that's ahead on "hardball," only on msnbc. [ artis brown ] america is facing some tough challenges right now. two of the most important are energy security and economic growth. north america actually has one of the largest oil reserves in the world. a large part of that is oil sands. this resource has the ability to create hundreds of thousands of jobs. at our kearl project in canada, we'll be able to produce these oil sands with the same emissions as many other oils and that's a huge breakthrough. that's good for our country's energy security and our economy.

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i'm veronica de la chris. sarah palin has made it official, telling a conservative radio host she's decided not to run for president in 2012. there was fueled speculation she might enter the race, but it would have been a tough road, with her scores only in the high teens. a manhunt is ready for a disgruntled employee suspected of killing employees. and jurors in the involuntary manslaughter trial of michael jackson's doctor heard a recording made about six weeks before his death. finally the ref vend shellsworth has desired in alabama at the age of 89. i'm veronica de la cruz. let's get you back to

"hardball." i think you guys know this. i'm not particularly self-conscious about this. like it's not a news flash to me that i'm overweight, you know. >> welcome back to "hardball." that was new jersey governor chris christie yesterday in his press conference in announcing his decision not to run for president. take a listen to him going after political pundits and columnists who had been commenting on his weight. >> the people who pretend to be serious commentators, who have wrote about this, are among the most ignorant people i've ever heard in my life. you know, to say that because you're overweight you are, therefore, undisciplined. you know, i don't think undisciplined people get to

achieve great positions in our society, and so, you know, that kind of stuff is just ignorant. >> so what was he responding to? well, it was columns like this one by michael kinsley last week who said controlling what you eat and how much is not easy, and it's harder for some people than for others, but it's not as difficult as curing a chemical addiction with a determined, disciplined effort. christie could have thinned down, and he should, because the obesity epidemic is real and dangerous, and the president inevitably sets an example. for more on this i'm joined by jonathan alter, a bloomberg view columnist and lauren ashburn, former managing editor at "usa today" and now a contributing editor at "the daily beast." lawrence -- lauren, you go first. what reaction do you have for governor christie saying it's okay for the comedians, but the pundits, they got it all wrong >> i think he needs to re-examine what he's saying and i'm going to be one of those ignorant pundits, i guess, but obesity is an extremely important issue in this country.

you know, the cdc says that 75% of us are either overweight and obese, and for him to laugh this off at a press conference saying yes, i'm fat, sends a terrible message to society. i think leaders are held to a different standard, and, you know, i understand that he has struggled with his weight. i've been up and down with my weight. i've had three kids. i get it. i know how hard it is, but i just think it's a different standard when you're a governor of a state or running for president. >> does it necessarily follow that if -- if he's undisciplined in his diet, that he's undisciplined relative to his governance? isn't there some level of compartmentalization here? >> i think it's a perception, michael, frankly, and the dirty little secret is, guess what? discrimination exists in the workplace, and at a very high level. you know, people who are overweight and let's talk about double standards, women who are 30 pounds overweight, those women, you know, they are

discriminated again, but only men who are obese are discriminated against. they don't get pay raises, don't get hired and aren't considered for promotion. >> let me ask jonathan alter to react to that. jonathan, go ahead. >> i agree with the premise of your question about compartmentalizing and agree with what a lot of what lauren said. just because you're undisciplined in one part of your life doesn't mean you're undisciplined in all parts of your life and i think the ultimate example of that is president clinton who practically invented the idea of compartmentalizing. we know that he was extremely undisciplined when it came to his sexual appetites even though he managed to discipline his eating habits and didn't go to mcdonald's as much and was otherwise a disciplined president. president bush, by contrast, is extremely disciplined in everything, but so disciplined that he became ridge i had, and his presidency suffered for it, so i think getting into this area of, you know, what constitutes presidential discipline is

simply -- >> you're channeling frank bruni, who wrote in "the times" on this subject, as did i, and let me put this up, if i can. he said discipline can also be overrated, a vegan-come-lately president clinton fought and often lost his struggles with o a big mac here and a lewinsky there and president obama has reported to still sneaking cigarettes will into the 2008 campaign. he's been seen chomping on nicotine gum still to this point. doesn't he have a point with what he just said? >> you look at the sniping for comments for president obama, and sneaking his cigarettes, what a bad example he is with his children and same thing with president clinton in the very beginning when he was going to mcdonald's and on all of these runs, but they made efforts, they made efforts to try to be healthy. >> this is going to sound crazy. i want him to smoke and i want bill clinton to have a big mac. >> why do you want him to smoke? >> because i don't want him wound so damn tight.

i want him to have a release. o. for -- >> you're a leader of this country and so what you're saying -- it's like a parent smoking in front of a small child. >> i don't know. i want a president, not a monk. jonathan, what do you think? >> i'm with lauren on this one. i think president obama is right to be sneaking it, and i reported in my book that he occasionally did, at least in 2009. he'd go out on the south lawn and sneak one, but he wanted to make sure that he wasn't doing it in the white house, and made sure he wasn't being -- doing it on camera, because you are setting an example. so, you know, should chris christie be entitled to pig out if he wants to in the privacy of his home? obviously. but i think lauren makes a good point that when he is speaking in public, he should at least pay some lip service to the idea that he and all the rest of us could do to lose a few. >> lauren, we would never sit here with this comfort level and have this conversation about a

woman who was struggling to control her weight. >> oh, no, we wouldn't, would we? look, if michele bachmann gained 50 pounds, we'd laugh her out and male hosts like you would be talking about it all the time. >> i don't know. >> what i'm say is, fine, sure, we can sit here and talk about his weight. i don't think if it was a female we would be having this conversation. >> we wouldn't be having this conversation. she wouldn't run, michael. >> she would not be able to run. a female who is obese would not even be considered as president of the united states. >> absolutely not. there's a minimum standard of attractiveness for politicians. >> comedians got a pass from governor christie. here's what he had to say about david letterman and his colleagues. >> so i saw -- i saw letterman's top ten list and i thought eight out of the ten were really funny. listen, you've got to know who you are in this life, and i think for me their job is to be funny, and if one of the things they want to make fun of is my weight, it's fair game.

i'm a public figure. >> jonathan, are the standards so clearly distinct? >> no. but i think that he, you know, makes a relatively defensible point when it comes to people, you know, seriously telling him that he cannot run for president because of his weight as opposed to comedians. the other distinction that's very important, michael, is between whether this would have hurt him in a campaign, hurt him politically. i don't think it would have. >> nor do i. >> you don't? >> i don't think americans would have held it against him. >> it would have helped. >> come on, guys. >> it would have helped. >> would have made him seem more like an average guy. >> i don't agree. >> it would have hurt him personally as a candidate because you cannot travel that much. nowadays to run for president you're on and off an airplane four or five times a week. you have to be in physical shape to run for president. >> yeah. >> you know. this week william "refrigerator" perry. he's only in his 40s. he is so fat, he doesn't weigh

that much more than christie, that he's not healthy enough to go to the reception at the white house for the old chicago bears team. >> that's a shame. >> look at the flack that dick cheney got. >> it's very unhealthy to fly which weigh that much. >> i'm out of time. i wish we had more. thanks for a great conversation. jonathan alter and lauren ashburn. >> thanks, michael. up next, amanda knox is a free woman, at home in seattle after stunningly winning her appeal and her freedom in italy. we're going to look at the successful campaign by her family to overturn her conviction when we come back. and if you want to follow me on twitter, remember, you've got to know how to spell smerconish. this is "hardball," only on msnbc.

[ whistle blows ] oh! [ baby crying ] ben harper: ♪ what started as a whisper every day, millions of people choose to do the right thing. ♪ slowly turned into a scream ♪ there's an insurance company that does that, too. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? president obama's best strategy for re-election may be to run against congress a la harry truman. a new "washington post"/abc news poll fin finds that only 14% approve of the job congress is doing. an all-time low in the poll and when it comes to who voters trust to create jobs, president obama wins the day, 49% to 34%

over congressional republicans. that's a change from a month ago which suggests the president's jobs plan is working for him, at least politically. we'll be right back. i'm really overwhelmed right now.

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>> we're back. that was amanda knox last night after arriving back in the united states. she was set free by an italian court on monday night after four years behind bars for the murder of her former roommate, meredith kercher. her family and friends never believed she was guilty. they raged a tireless and expensive campaign to help free her. ultimately she was set free because the dna evidence used to initially convict her was almost entirely discredited at her second trial. but the legal battle was only part of the fight that was going on. on monday the family of the victim talked about having to battle a large pr machine. according to the "new york times," the knox family hired a seattle-based pr company early on after her arrest and encountered the image emerging overseas that she was a she-devil. for more on the pr strategy we're joined by the author of "the fatal gift of beauty, the italian trials of amanda knox" and john neffinger, a public relations specialist. at knp communications. nina, can pr convict her initially? in other words, was it the climate created by the tabloids

and in italy that caused her to go down in the initial trial? >> no. i mean, there were a lot of things that caused her to go down in the initial trial, but it just -- i just want to point something out to you because you bring up the "new york times" article today. i'm veronica de la cruz with breaking news out of the msnbc newsroom. steve jobs has died at the age of 56. jobs was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer in 2004 and was forced to get a liver transplant in 2009. he stepped down as ceo in august, but remained active with the company as head of the board of directors. again steve jobs dead at the age of 56. we're going to have more news coverage coming up, but let's get you back to "hardball." what they are talking about when they talk about the pr campaign, the knox family after being

silent for many weeks i think after the arrest, you know, watching this sort of juggernaut of foxy knoxy innuendo in the british tabloids, went to this pr firm who then started setting them up with the bookers on american morning programs, and morning television program producers want the face. they want the person on camera. so they were putting them on camera, and they weren't doing -- you know, they weren't playing hardball with them, and they weren't giving them to reporters in italy. they got very upset about it, and they presented it as this was, you know, this is a massively funded pr campaign. and i'm not sure -- i mean, i didn't encounter that when i was over there. i actually never even dealt with that public relations firm. >> i guess what i'm saying is from from thousands of miles away that the initial trial had all the foxy knoxy headlines, and i did follow it in the british tabloids and these fantastical

tales of the sex game gone awry dominated the headlines. john neffinger, it seemed like in the second go-round, it was now being told, at least stateside, from the perspective of an innocent woman. what's your reaction as to how the pr campaign changed or affected this? >> yeah, michael, it definitely did shift the coverage and the perception her in the media entirely. i think in terms of the actual legal proceedings it's not clear that any of this circus really had that much to do with the outcome, but looking at it from afar, and it has been quite a media event, and understandably fascinating to both the media and the public that they serve, it's a totally different situation now from what you had initially where you had this sort of mysterious young woman at the center of this. and we don't know, it's this lurid crime, so the tale of an involving one as fantastical as it was, it was also very captivating to the public. >> john, did you notice changing in the way she conducted

herself? again, based on the television presentation? was there a change in her demeanor? her eye contact? how she was looking and so forth? between the initial phase and more recent? >> well, i would certainly say there's a dramatic change between a lot of the images that we saw earlier on. which is needless to say, there was this sort of inappropriate mysterious smiling which people didn't know what to make heads or tales otails of. i can't believe there were public relations advising her to do this. often she was pictured in public looking down with a fearful look on her face and she looked lost in her own thoughts. and on the one hand, that's perfectly consistent with her thinking, what's happening to me? on the other hand, it's also perfectly consistent with her thinking, what have i done? and so -- if i might ask, you did make the trip and have written the definitive book on

this. sitting here today with you comfortable and confident that justice has been served with her release? was she innocent on the murder of meredith kercher? >> well, you know, i -- we've talked about this before, michael, and i, you know, if you've read the book, it's a complicated case. it's not a 30-second sound bite. but it's a simple crime story with an incredibly complicated story put around it. it's a simple crime with a incredibly complicated story that's been created around it. has justice been done? in my opinion, they did not have the evidence to back up the claim that she led two men into a sex game and stabbed her roommate to death. personally, i think it's a robbery gone wrong. a very simple crime. and the whole media circus and all of the story that's been created around it, it's very complicated. it has to do with many different things. italian culture and the media

and the legal system over therer a hen presentation and the way she behaved. and -- >> one man sits in jail tonight. her boyfriend's been released. raffaele sollecito. she, too, obviously. the guy that's in the slammer tonight. is it your belief he's the one who did it and acted alone? >> rudy guede whose name nobody remembers because they were focused on the woman in the center of this crime story was, you know, he's convicted of murder. he has been convicted of murder and he has never denied being in the room where this poor victim, meredith kercher, was bleeding to death. his hand prints and fingerprints are all over the room. so, you know, let the legal -- let the record speak for itself. >> john neffinger, i only have 30 seconds. book deal? television? where's it headed next for amman do knox? >> my guess is she doesn't want to be a more public figure. the words she said from her

release, looking down from the plane, it looked unreal. it didn't look real to her. she wanted to get back to the real life she knew before. a book deal could help that. she could tell her side of the story and put the lingering questions to rest. tv, no way. >> and pay the lingering pr bills as well. thank you nina and john neffinger. when we return, allow me to finish with a new low in political incivility. it doesn't get much worse than this. major medical, boyyyy! [ beatboxing ] ♪ i help pay the doctor ♪ ain't that enough for you? ♪ there are things major medical doesn't do. aflac! pays cash so we don't have to fret. [ together ] ♪ something families should get ♪ ♪ like a safety net ♪ even helps pay deductibles, so cover your back, get... ♪ a-a-a-a-a-a-a-aflac! [ male announcer ] help protect your family at aflac.com. [ beatboxing ] [ reporter ] ...passengers, emergency crews are prepared.

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allow me a final word about the incivility that has been all too common in our political discourse. this week's poster boy is hank williams jr., who with regards to the president playing golf with the speaker of the house, made an inane reference to hitler and netanyahu. we know who was supposed to be the hitler figure in williams' mind. stories in the news could have provided for nilegitimate criticism of the white house, talk about e-mails just released that the administration

overlooked written concerns about solyndra, the solar equipment manufacturer that was the beneficiary of loans, and is now in bankruptcy. they show the white house was so anxious to orchestrate a presidential visit, caution was thrown to the wind. and speaking of e-mails, another batch chose senior justice department officials were aware that atf agents allowed firearms to be walked into mexico as part of the fast and furious program which ultimately lost track of more than 2,000 weapons. third, he could have raised constitutional questions about the killing of an american terrorist anwar al awlaki. fourth, he could have highlighted a report that pakistani military units traded fire with american and afghan government troops along the afghanistan border several times over the past year and could have asked why do we continue to send billions to the pakistanis? surely he could have found fault in some aspect of the president's american jobs act. my point is there's plenty of room for legitimate debate about the direction of the country. but substance doesn't have the pull of salaciousness. what sells?

openly wishing for the president to fail. saying that he has a deep-seeded hatred of white people or now a misguided hitler reference. what always amazes me is when these cheap shots are offered by observers anxious to proclaim their own patriotism. no. you can't have it both ways. there's nothing patriotic about calling the commander in chief the enemy which is something else hank williams jr. did. whether the occupier or the oval office is george busw. bush or barack obama, that sort of commentary is un-american. yesterday hank sort of apologized. he said he was very sorry, quote, if it offended anyone. then he added, this was not written by some publicist. we can tell, hank. because a professional would have told you to take out the qualifier if, if you offended. clearly you did. and for good reason. that's "hard ball" for now. thanks for being with us. "the last word with lawrence o'donnell" starts right now.