forward. >> wonderful comments there, martin. if anybody can articulate the sentiment when it comes to these things, i cannot think of a broad ca broadcaster in this country that can do it better than you. >> that is a wonderful comment, and i will pay you after the show. >> it's a sincere compliment, martin. the show starts right now. well, good thursday afternoon to you. i am dylan ratigan and i'm fired up. i hope you are too. we're moving on now to the next level of our collective madç a hell get money out campaign. as of now, the digital waves are surging. our theory of each person asking another person, as they sign this petition, to let another person know it exists is functioning, and as a result, yesterday our biggest day ever. more than 26,000 in the day. we're now working 130,000, as we

head to d.c. tomorrow, by simply signing on to join the debate at getmoneyout.com. the digital wave is real. we are watching it together develop around us. the goal, of course, is for all of us to be aligned together as we ride it. and as promised, we will take this petition and hopefully be able to announce a whole nice stack of news as to where we're going to move forward with this tomorrow from washington, d.c. but as i said yesterday, we are at the beginning of a process that will rise into a wave of debate for next year. we need to debate this constitutional amendment together, in public, to get money out of our auction-based democracy, so we can finally resolve the real issues our country faces. the need for true health, focus on learning, actual investment, efficiency, and ultimately the jobs that will be created in the pursuit of those goals. and we must have everyone's help to do it. you know that you can't do it, you know i can't do it, we even know we can't do it. but we do know that we can talk

about this with everybody at america, getting the word out that we want to get money out. and this fall is time for an honest, transparent, true debate about the language of this petition's amendment for draft. and our first guest wants to help us. he has suggestions and he has the authority to do it. renowned constitutional scholar and harvard law professor, lawrence lessick. by the way, he is also the author of the newly publishedç book that i will hawk and sell and tell you to read any way that i possibly can, because i could not think of an issue that is more important than what he offers, "republic lost," which is all about how money corrupts congress and how the auction system in our democracy is preventing our country from achieving prosperity. professor, congratulations on the book. >> congratulations on the movement, dylan. >> thank you. if you were to look at what's going on, how do you interpret the wave of energy that is not -- that is all of this? >> yeah. i think that finally people are

beginning to recognize that there is a deep corruption in the way that our system works. and not the illegal corruption. this is legal corruption. this is in plain sight corruption. and the core of it, the root of it, is exactly as you've described. the money in the system. so we have to build a movement that's from the left to the right, that recognizes that neither side gets what they want, as long as money buys results if congress, and we've got to get the money out of congress. >> and when you try to solve -- when you have a bunch of people who don't get along, or who like to argue about a wide variety of ideas, and know that it is only through a singular focus, how important is it that we leave our ideas aside, so we can engage and agree on principle? >> yeah, i think that's critical. you know, i remember the cartoon, when you're growing up, the coyote and the guard dog. and they would fight like hell, all day long. and then the bell would ring, and then they would stop and they would go off and have a drink at night. i kind of think it's like that. we need left and right to fight like hell, during the day, in work, to figure out what the right answer is to our policies.

i don't want to compromise -- i'm on the left, i don't want to compromise with people on the right on those substantiative issues. but we've got to have a system, a set of rules that's fair and makes sense for both sides. at that point, we've got to say, let's put aside our disagreement about gay marriage, let'sç put aside our disagreement about the tax on the rich should be or the tax on the middle class should be. those are important issues, we disagree about those and we need to fight about those. but we need a system that has integrity. a system where congress is independent of special interests and can actually do the right thing. and we don't have that system right now. >> it's stunning to watch the digital wave. the tools that are -- this is an issue, wealthy people and government have been screwing over countries for as long as there have been wealthy people and government. the taffarfor pharaohs and the. it's marvelous from my perspective, it's humbling to watch the magnitude of what is possible when you invoke the digital wave like this and say, when you sign, tell one other person, and 100 quickly goes

200, 400, 800. if you have integrity. why is the integrity of what we are doing with this process so important? >> well, because people have to understand that there's no ul tier ulterior motive here. you're not running for president, you're not trying to become a senator or some important figure. you're a citizen, you're a citizen politician. and we need more of those. people look at ordinary politicians, most of them and they say, look, we heard it all before. you treat us like charlie brown and you're lucy. every time you talk about reform, just as you get in office, you pull the ball up and we fall flat on our back. you know, my friend, the man i campaigned hard for in the last election, barack obama, is the biggest example of this. this man came in, the only reason -- >> so much energy. >> yeah. and the only reason to support him over hillary clinton was that he promised to change the system. hillary clinton was like, look, it's not any job to fix the horse. i'm going to get on the horse and run as far as i can. but he said, if we don't take up the fight to change the way washington works, then there will be no solving these

problems for our children. and did he take up the fight? he did >> and is that ultimately why you think we're seeing such a surge, not just with occupy wall street, not just with the frustration that is around the globe, not just with the petition that we launched with this, not with the popularity that i'm sure your book "republic lost" will ride. not because you want to sell books, but because you are offering information that will help us make better decisions. is it that, is it the unresolved frustration of these things that we're now seeing play out before us? >> yeah. we're finally recognizing, politician after politician comes in says, we're going to fix the system. they never do it. finally they recognize, we're going to have to fix it ourselves. there's a time when citizens, citizen politicians need to stand up and say, we're going to take this government back, fix it, and then we can go back to you politicians and you can go on back to playing the game you want to play. none of us, myself, have worn my firstborn male child if i ever run for congress. i'm not running for anything.

we're not in this because we want to be politicians, we're in this because we want this country to have respect and integrity and a life for our children. i think that's true on the left and right. we had a convention at harvard with the tea party to talk about having a constitutional convention, to begin to talk about these issues. and i was extraordinarily impressed, with people whose politics i radically disagree, mark meckler, you know, whose politics i don't think there's six things i agree with. but the integrity of his desire to find a real change to this system i think is an opportunity. and i think if we can begin to talk in a way that gets people to understand cross-partisan movement does not move compromise your principles. it means, let's build a democracy that works. >> on a single, shared principle, which is the integrity of the relationship between our policyç makers and those who would seek to distort those policies for their own self-preservation. >> absolutely right. absolutely. >> the book is called "republic lost." the professor is on board to

help us with the debate on the language of the amendment. that will go all fall. do not worry about that. we have also asked him, and i hope he will be able to stay for a thursday night fight tonight on twitter, where we'll be able to take some questions about this language. if you're a root striker, the get money out crowd, it is an absolute pleasure. i agree wefith everything you said. again, the book, "republic lost," congratulations on its publication, and thank you so much for joining this conversation with us. our next guest is a man you may not have heard much from recently, but former louisiana governor buddy romer is running for the republican presidential nomination on the platform of the exact conversation that we are seeing play out across the country, which is ending a bought government. governor roler, while not in the top tier of candidates in the polling, will not accept contributions over $100 as his benchma benchmark, and is running on the platform of campaign finance reform, which curiously aligns with what we're talking about.

he's been using the get money out hashtag on twitter. we've got waves all over the world, the root strikers, the occupiers, the tea partyers, the obama -- the cognitive dissonance crowd, the disappointed obama followers, if you will. governor romer, your interpretations of this rising wave wherever you look? >> every speech i give in new hampshire, and that's where i am today, ten people, a thousand people, every speech, when i get through, they stand and give an ovation. people are desperate to haveç some control of, power in, participation in their government. and they know that washington, d.c. is bought and sold. only 2% of the people in america ever give a dime to a person running for president or to a congressman. it's the special interests that own washington. all you have to do, dylan, is look at the bank reform bill, there's no reform there, and

look at health reform. it protects insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. >> yeah. so here's the interesting thing. having spent four or five days with the -- at the occupy wall street protests, learning, meeting people, having spent time, yesterday, with ron pall on this program, professor lessick, there's lists and lists. there's situations and issues, governor, that you and i could disagree on a thousand ways, a thousand times, a thousand issues. what we look like, your accent is different than mine, we're of different ages, you live in a different state, you may have a different point of view on i don't even know what. it is easy to shatter a group of people's point of view, a principled group by making them or inviting them or baiting them into a debate on mechanics and ideas. how important is it that you, me, and every other person in this country finds alignment and agreement on this one issue as opposed to falling into the

fracture of red state, blue state, old, young, black, white that has been the tradition, it would seem, of the past couple decades of elections? >> divide and conquer. and that's what the opponents do. that's what the special interests do. divide and conquer. whether it be fair trade versus unfair trade. whether it be smallç business important versus wall street important. whether it be wall street banks versus main street banks. here's how they went. they give the big checks to politicians, they crush new ideas, and they divide and conquer. we are together, dylan, we might do this different ways, but here's what i'm doing. a $100 limit, no pacs, no super pacs, full disclosure. take that, republican party. take that, democratic party. why don't we elect a person president free to lead? why don't we tell china, no more unfair trade? why don't we tell the

regulators, lighten up and let small business grow. and why don't we tell wall street banks, you've got to compete, guys. too big to fail is gone. >> governor, i could not be more grateful for your willingness to engage in this debate, for your willingness to make other people aware of what not only myself, but myself and 126,000 other americans have agreed to do over the past week. the simple act of letting other people know what we are doing is all that we ask of those who look at what we're doing as something that they agree with. and i really am grateful for your engagement on that level. >> all we need, dylan, is a couple of million people. in my campaign, i've gotten them from all 50 states. my average contribution is $70. we have raised $126,000 in the last 90 days. i am unknown, but when i get before the people, it makes a difference. and you do that every day, dylan. you are so important. stay wit. >> listen, governor, this is the

principle that drives our coverage, it is the principle, i believe, that is represented by the 126,000 andç counting. it is a magnificent thing to behold the digital wave, because i have never seen anything like this. and it is only possible in the context of the modern era. it's pretty spectacular. >> thanks. >> thank you, governor. and we look forward to being in touch with you sooner than later. that's buddy romer, running for president of the united states, i might add, on the republican ticket, there just coming to us from new hampshire. we'll take a break here on "the dr show" today, president obama challenging the gop to back up his jobs plan or do some explaining. great political talk, but we'll discuss what both sides are completely missing. and why that is so dangerous for our country. plus, an analogy for all you sports fans. why one money in politics reporter is dubbing all of us 126,000 on the petition nothing

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i'm also dealing with a republican majority leader who said that his number one goal was to beat me. not put americans back to work, not grow the economy, not help small businesses expand, but to defeat me. >> well, today the president taking aim at republicans and saying it is up to them to pass his jobs bill or explain themselves. and in just over an hour, he'll meet with senate democratic leadership at the house to discuss their thoughts on his

jobs acts. but, remember, for all the fire focused at the gop, right now the president's jobs plan doesn't even have enough democrats on board in the senate. the most important point, and the thing that gets lost in this entire debate is this. the number of unemployed people, according to the government's numbers in this country, is 9%. that's roughly 25 to 30 million people. the president today said that his plan will create 1.9 million jobs, which is surely a welcome and necessary thing, certainly when comparedç to a jobs plan from the republicans, which is nonexistent, more or less, or at the very least, not anywhere near 1.9 million jobs. here's the point. if you have a 30 million jobs problem and you have two political parties, one offering 1.9 million jobs, which sounds good, and the other offering less than that, don't we have two political parties that are playing a power game with each other while ignoring the

disastrous and epic nature of our country's jobs problem while they play power games? that, obviously, is my perspective. i hate when people come to solve a problem with a solution that doesn't solve the problem. what does the megapanel think, however? democratic strategist and msnbc political analyst karen finney is with us. republican strategist and msnbc contributor, susan del percio is here in new york. and our washington insider and our get money out curator at large, i think is his current title right now. did you ever think you would be a curator? >> i don't even know what that is. >> you're curating as we speak. >> the democrat s and republicas are going to carry this into triple overtime. they just need to let the clock go until it's time to run for re-election. some will say that's already started.

but they're worried about keeping their jobs. they are not focused on what americans want. that's why you see the outrage that you do -- >> occupy wall street. >> that's right. and while 125,000, 140,000 people have signed up to get money out, because they areç tired of the system. what's going to happen is, there are going to be elected official who is will try to tie on to the movement, much like they did with the tea party movement. it's up to the people who are out there to boot them out and not let them try and come in and try and harness that. because they'll get sucked into the system. >> so here's the interest thing, karen, and you watch the president, and you can feel not only his commitment, his passion, the amount -- how much he cares, how invested he is in advocating that. what is your rationale or insight or analysis as to what prevents the president from going big, so to speak? in other words, this is -- no one is going to reject 2 million

more jobs. not me and not anybody else. at the same time, 2 million more jobs is not going to help this country when we're down 30 to 60 million of them and the president surely understands that. in other words, what is the strategy on going with a little bit of jobs, when we need a whole pile of jobs from a policy standpoint? >> well, look, i think the president's strategy, and i say this not necessarily to defend the administration, but, again, as somebody who has been in the white house, looking at what is politically feasible, what are powers of the president as guaranteed by the constitution, what is he physically able to do to affect change, i think they sat down and they said, okay, the 2 million, at least it's a start. and even if, and frankly, you said, who doesn't want 2 million jobs? well, frankly, the republicans are saying they don't want those 2 million jobs. >> they want him to lose. they just want him to lose. >> that's right. so part of the strategy -- hold on, susan. that's why part of the strategy that what you've seen the

president, there's a point at which you have to acceptç that that is the political reality. they want him to lose. for him to say, okay, you know what,time going to put a plan forward that is relatively simple, that is easy to understand, that puts everybody on the record as saying, here's what i'm for, here's what you are for. >> i got it. i get pit. >> and i think that's their strategy at this point. >> and my concern with that strategy from an outside the castle point of view is that if you solve the problem and deliver -- if everybody -- the people are starving and you deliver a little bit of food, because the other guy doesn't believe in food, i'd be shocked if the occupiers in the occupy wall street scenarios or that wave of energy is going to be satisfied, jimmy, by any of these solutions. but i want to move to a different conversation, because this is an important -- and we don't have a lot of time. very quickly. otherwise -- the longer you go, the less we can talk about steve jobs. >> my dead daddy, god rest his soul, used to say, when you piss

on my leg and tell me it's raining outside, it's not raining outside. i'm pretty sure both political parties are pissing on my legs and i'm standing in a puddle of piss and not rain. i don't see either party that's doing a whole hell of a lot, and they're both playing to their base. i got it. i don't want them to play to the base. i want them to play to the middle. >> i want to flip this conversation from people who are playing small power games in a small way that are harming this country to someone who is perhaps one of the most famous people in our country, foreseeing in his mind everything that is possible and leading the people around him to strive to the full potential of what they as a fwrup could achieve if they decided to try to do it. and that, obviously, is steve jobs. who he himself did not make ö c1 iphones, he, himself did not make apple computers. he, himself, as a leader, walked into a room and built a culture, starting in a garage, with the people he was working with, who

were his partners, however many there may have been, and said to him, this is the delta. this is what is possible. we can completely alter the way information is related to on the planet earth. do you want to try to help me? and i feel like that is the spirit that is absent in our political problem-solving process, that we all love to celebrate so much when it comes to our innovators, jimmy. and i don't understand how the chasm between our celebrations, susan, karen, of those innovators and those thinkers, is not more reflected in our leadership. >> because there's one big difference. he said, he never took no as an answer. he said, we can do it. people say, no, we really can't. we've had this problem -- >> we have that all day in politics. >> he said, come back when you can. so what's happened is, the american public, they go on election day, they're not going to be happy the next day, but it's like, oh, we got what we got, what are we going to do, there's no other choice. i think that's part of -- the people have to say,, you know --

>> we expect more. the people are raising the expectation. >> not settle for the lesser -- >> go ahead, karen. >> i think there's another lesson here as well in steve jobs, his life, what he accomplished was not possible, particularly in the year of 1955 to 2011 in any other country. and that's what's at stake right now. what we're losing is the opportunity that a brilliant mind comes along and says, like you said, i've got an idea, do you want to help me? and builds something that changes the way we fundamentally live our lives. we're losing that if we don't change the way we do things so that that kind ofç genius is still possible and is still possible to thrive in this country. >> go ahead. >> we all remember the mac commercial, "think different." that guy, he thought different. politicians today think alike. republicans and democrats think alike. and i really think america would like for the american political establishment to think

differently for once. he created so much different stuff, i bought a lot of it. i don't know how to use it, but i bought a lot of it. but i've got to tell you, you know why i bought it? i bought it because he created it and i trusted him. that's something to be said. >> we are at an extraordinary point in time. it's a pleasure to be present, honestly, with you guys for this. and i think all of us, along with everybody in america, are going to ride this wave, hopefully to harness it, to raise the bar for ourselves and raise if bar for our politicians to strive for what we know is possible. people say, oh, it's like climbing mt. everest. and people say, yes, well, people have climbed mt. everest. and that's kind of where we find ourselves. karen, it's a pleasure. jimmy, it's always a pleasure. susan, thank you very much. they all stay, by the way. and we add the specialist to the conversation. when we come back, what do all of us on this petition of 126,000 have in common with the chicago cubs? at bayer, we're re-inventing aspirin for pain relief.

with new extra-strength bayer advanced aspirin. it has microparticles, enters the bloodstream faster and rushes relief to the site of pain. it's clinically proven to relieve pain twice as fast. new bayer advanced aspirin.

well, you, my friends, are looking at an interview that we did, or i did, jimmy and i did, i should say, last week on behalf of all of us to discuss the petition that we've all begun. it basically equated our get money out campaign with the chicago cubs winning the world series. well, as you can see by what i'm wearing, we do not run from the cubs analogy, we embrace it! a man who wrote the piece, or the man who wrote the piece is dan levanthal, and he's our specialist. the way you equated our efforts was like the chicago cubs winning the world series on the same day that lightning struck an asteroid twice as it hit the earth, and also on the same day, you were bit by a shark, or whatever it was. obviously, this is a monumental

task. and interested in your response to the fact that the digital wave, of course, in eight days, just -- we're now over 131. we werd0at 127 ten minutes ago. if everybody tells one other person, if we can maintain our integrity, if we don't commercialize this list. just three simple sentences and an alignment of principle, do you feel like our odds are any better than they were a week ago ? >> well, i wrote this as only a true buffalo bills fan could, somebody who believes his team will win the super bowl every single year. but the truth is, the constitutional amendment, at least in its entirety, is a very difficult thing to do. congress is having a difficult time this year passing a resolution in favor of puppy dogs, sunshine, and rainbows. so you do face a very, very difficult task in front of you if, indeed, you want to do that. there have been only two examples -- >> we should say, we want to do this. obviously, i am a guy in tribeca

and can barely make it out of bed to work every day. we, as a group of human beings, are the only ones -- i'm not going to do this. we must do this, right? >> well, there are two examples of a constitutional amendment actually passing in the past 40 years. there are constitutional amendment proposals that go back to the 1800s that are still waiting for state legislatures to ratify them. that doesn't mean that it's impossible, though. that means that it's very difficult and it's going to be up to you and up to the people who support you to effectively say, hey, we're going to take this beyond something that's a petition, take this beyond something that is a signature on a document and put it into action. >> hey, dave, this is jimmy williams. you're a good reporter -- >> you're the curator. >> apparently i'm a curator. i don't know what that is, but i'm a curator. sounds like a slab of beef or something. >> better than a lobbyist. >> i hope so. so, dave, you deal with the hill quite a bit and deal with those guys and gals up there. what are they saying? you can be off theç record,

obviously. what are people saying about this? >> you mean off the record on national television while we're recording -- >> no, i'm sorry, without attribution. >> well, there are people in congress who really think that campaign finance reform is a necessity. there are others who don't even want to touch the issue. and it's very difficult for them, because, ultimately, they're going to be the ones who, if this were to go forward, they'll have to pass the rules. they're going to be the ones who are not only getting the money themselves, but who will eventually say, if they choose to do, all right, we're going to step away from it. if you have an constitutional change that's being proposed like this, it is very difficult when you have people who are intimately involved with the process itself, having to step back, having to take a look at the whole situation, as it is, and change it effectively for themselves. >> karen, you got any questions for our man who has cast us -- i am so excited to root for the chicago cubs next year. i cannot wait for the baseball season. i will be flying to chicago, more next year than i've been in

my entire life, combined, if they'll have me. but, karen, your thoughts here? >> just for the record, i'm a yankee girl. i have been since i was a kid, you know. >> okay, duly noted. >> i think the point i would like to make, and i would love to get your reaction, obviously, this is an uphill battle, what dylan and jimmy are trying to do, but nothing ever change ifs somebody doesn't take the first step and say, okay, i'm in. and i liken that a bit to what we're seeing going on across the country with the occupy wall street and the 99% movement, in terms of people saying, we're sick of it. but also being willing to take that first step and say, i'm in! i'm not just going to go away quietly into the night. i'm going to stay here and i'm going to fight for this. you know, so i totally -- i think that sometimes in washington, we get so wrapped up in, and i'veç tried to walk th balance myself, politically, here's what's realistic and feasible, but at some point, there is the bigger picture that somebody's got to take a step forward.

>> if you were to look at the history of this type of activity, where has organization and activism succeeded, and what can jimmy and i and the 131,000 and counting petitioners learn about singular focus, and i was talking about this with buddy roemer, and the dangers of allowing anything that's not this, any agenda that's not this -- listen, i'll argue about anything under the sun, as we all know, but the only way it would seem that something like this can form the necessary wave size to actually have a legislative impact is if it has an incredible clarity, transparency, and integrity. does that resonate with you? >> it does. and what's also very important is it doesn't get coopted by anybody else, like the press. that they don't try and pigeonhole you. >> i have been been pigeonholed. i've got the chicago cubs, shark attacks, and lightning bolts.

but go ahead. >> i guess what i'm saying, people have to, again, keep their -- keep moving forward. and not get kind of lured in by elected officials or other people who want to help them. you know, you have to be a little curious about some of the union backing, for example. where's some of the agenda there? >> well, before we go, you said something before we came out here, that you thought was the most brilliant thing, that the messaging of those in the occupation movement, and i want you to share that with everybody. >> in the last 24 hours, on tuesday, with i said, one of the problems they have is that they seem all over the place. nowç what's happened is, that have turned that into a message. they're so angry about this, this, and that. and not letting the press pigeonhole them. so by standing united behind, we refuse to be pigeonholed, they actually have a strong message. >> very quick? >> go cubs. >> go cubs, baby. >> go cubbies. >> that's it.

listen, it's a pleasure. you set us up. you're going to make our dream -- i'm a kid from lake placid who watched the americans beat the russians in 1980, so you've gave us our dream posture. and we appreciate it. >> fair enough. >> all right. thank you. the panel goes. obviously, we're all cubs fans now. and straight ahead, to boldly show what no man has seen before. amazing new images of deep space from the world's most expensive and hopefully most valuable -- value-creating telescope. we're america's natural gas

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control the integrity collectively, we will have an incredible voice next year. however, away from that, the first image from the brand-new $1.3 billion radio telescope has been released. it's an awesome picture. this picture of the antenna galaxies interacting, or you could say, colliding. when galaxies collide, from 70 million light years away. apparently if it were just a regular telescope or even an infrared telescope, i'm not a telescope expert, we wouldn't be able to see nearly as much detail that we're seeing. the telescope known as alma is the most expensive ground-based system ever built. it's located in chile's atakama desert, well above sea level. potentially the clearest view of the sky on earth, or so they say, and certainly the coolest part, scientists say this isn't even the best the scope is capable of. they actually say by 2013, when alma is at full power, that they'll be able to investigate ç

astrochemistry, watch planet formation, and even detect the life that's finally reaching us from the earliest galaxies in our universe, millions and millions years ago. some serious science, amazing discovers. these are the sort of things we are capable of. let us unleash it everywhere, shall we? next, here, however, the opposite of that sort of potential. a documentary sparking a fiery debate about the politics of the death penalty in our own nation. a presidential hopeful, rick perry, his role in the controversy, after this. [ female announcer ] there's no right way or wrong way. every baby plays by his own rules. and they need a diaper that lets them do it. new pampers cruisers with 3-way fit adapt at the waist, legs and bottom ♪ with up to 12 hours of protection for all the freedom to play their way. pampers. it's time to play.

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he stood and watched while their bodies burned. >> this is a monster who killed his children. >> an absolutely mind-capturing scene there from a movie called "incendiary: the willingham case," a new documentary out raising questions about the texas use of the death penalty and the governor, and now presidential candidate, who champions that death penalty. this particular film focussing on the case of a man named cameron todd willingham who was convicted of killing his three daughters in a house fire in course crsicana corsicana, texas, sfentenced to

death, but afterwards, investigators found no evidence of arson in the home. willingham's defense as no evidence of a lack of arson was denied. rick perry was the one that denied it to him, rick perry called him a monster. this man was executed in 2004 by our nation in the state of texas. and with us now and joe bailey,f "incendiary" about the toxic mix of law, science, and politics in this case. i'll start in a little bit of a different order. rick perry and the sort of applause line in the debates has gone to the political appeal of the justice administering cowboy, who's not going to take any crap. and how do you reconcile the appeal of that character with the collateral damage that becomes, whether it's this case or other cases, whether individuals who perhaps are not

guilty or are not guilty as charged, because the collateral damage of cowboy politicians, who are playing to that cowboy energy, that yippie-ki-yay energy. >> as a texan, i take offense. i think that gives cowboys a bad name. >> i agree with that. >> uh, no, i think there's definitely a lack of curiosity about past errors that's troubling about that. separate, entirely, from the death penalty. just looking at our justice system, i think that as citizens, we have a confidence that we place in the system and when it isn't operating efficiently or effectively, i think that needs to be addressed. >> i think we all make an assumption that if we read about an execution, that it's been through the process and it's correct. and then that's sort of what's exposed in the film is that sometimes that doesn't happen. >> go ahead. >> right, well, an interesting thing about this case, and what makes it different from other wrongful conviction, you know, sort of -- >> we've heard the story.

we've heard versions of this story for years. different characters and different states and deferent situations. >> sure. >> the fascinatyn thing about this is that the forensic evidence is at the very heart of the case. there wouldn't have been an indictment, much less a conviction, without the scientific evidence that -- >> of arson. >> of arson, that this was a set fire. this evidence, you wouldn't even have a trial today if you were to bring this evidence -- >> just to understand it a little better, these are children who died in a house fire. >> right. >> the variance in the investigation is, did they die in a house fire, which is tragic and heartbreaking and horrible, or were they murdered in a house fire that was set by another person, which would be arson. and that was the delineating point of the case, correct? >> that's right. >> right. >> and what you're saying is that the forensic evidence for arson that was the precursor for the murder indictment was ultimately proven what? >> fraudulent -- or, i mean the issue. >> fraudulent?

>> based on scientific folklore and anecdotal evidence -- >> so the original evidence was based on folklore or historical applications. the contemporary technology to these revealed there was nothing there? >> there's no valid evidence there. >> at the time, the fields of fire investigation and fire science were sort of parallel universes, for many years, and there wasn't a lot of exchange of information between the two. it wasn't until, actually, nine days after willingham was indicted, nfpa-291 was published, which is the field manual for fire investigations that first codified scientific methods into field fire investigation. >> and i think you guys made the most significant point, which is, all of us need to be aware that we need to be asking questions about these processes, lest we take too much faith that they, or them, or it will take care of itself. >> that's right. >> sure. >> "incendiary" is the film,

incredible journalism by the two of you. no insult intended to cowboys. i love cowboys. >> thank you. >> although i'm actually a cubs fan now, so don't get -- i can't be a cowboy fan too. although i suppose i could on the football front. steve mims and joe bailey, the movie is "insendisend yair," a of you here. chris matthews following the rising tide of the status quo and the occupation movement that is spreading across this country. but next, continuing a critically important conversation about how we can all work together to invest our passions and our resources to align to create jobs in this country. ed schultz, right after this. [ cellphone rings ] cut! [ monica ] i have a small part in a big movie. i thought we'd be on location for 3 days, it's been 3 weeks. so, i used my citi simplicity card to pick up a few things. and i don't have to worry about a late fee.

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in case you missed it, at noon today here on msnbc, after the president's news conference, ed schultz and i got into a little back and forth, as we talked about the debate over jobs in this country. ended with what looked like could have been a squabble, and i wanted to make sure that everyone understood that both of us are not only passionate about america and jobs, but we are friends and colleagues and have a tremendous amount to work on together over the years. to make sure all of you know that ed, you, and me are in this together. and we know that in this presidential cycle, perhaps more than ever before. but first, i would like to say i'm sorry to our audience at noon, for creating a distraction from these issues, and apologize to you, ed. i have a tremendous amount of respect and -- >> and i do as well. and i want to tell you something else! >> well, the question is,

really, how -- you and i are only as useful as our ability to communicate with the people around us about how we can work together to help solve a long list of problems in this country. i think what's most compelling for me about even this petition is that people want to do this as a group. r&h(lc% and i think that what, you know, for me, i just look and i think, how can i work with ed across the board over the next year, how can we work together, you and i, can and how can we all work together to create the debate that america observes? >> well, i think we have a political system in america, that i agree with you, it's bought and paid for, but you can make progress in a morsel type of a way. >> okay. >> get a little bit here, a little bit there. the old ted kennedy thing, i'm not going to get my whole deal, so let's cut one and i'm going to take what i really need. i think that's where we are right now. i think that's where the president is right now. he went out and said, deficit reduction, how about this $1 trillion package? they said no to that.

so he's now down to showing the america people, all right, i got this $447 billion deal, i can pay for it, we can pay for it, we can get it done and the republicans are saying no to this too. you be the judge. >> and at the same time, we both know -- forget jobs. >> heavy lift. >> we've got health, we've got learning, we've got all these things. and there's a sense, if you look at the occupation movement, if you look at the overall frustration that the government doesn't understand -- doesn't understand maybe is the wrong characterization. that the government is not willing to try to resolve the problems on the magnitude that they actually exist. whether it's our debt, which is in the tens of trillions. whether it's our jobs, which is in the tens of millions. whether it's in the cost and issues with our poverty, which is, as we know, a fifth of our country. how do you think we resolve the sense that we're not getting the scale of response? >> well, if you were to get the money out of politics, if senators didn't have to raise upwards of $15,000 a day to --

>> is that what they do? a day? >> when you break down the money, it's about $15,000 a çd, how much money they -- >> just dialing for -- that's half the day, right? >> yeah, what they have to do to, you know, mount a defense of their job to get re-elected. so that changes the landscape, in itself. what we have to do as a country is make some fundamental changes in that regard, but this whole wall street thing, and what is happening here -- >> yeah, what do you think of the occupation? >> i think it has some real potential. because we've got some state things coming up that they may be able to influence and energize the people to make them believe they can make a difference. senate bill 5, now it's issue two on the ballot bill in ohio. here in new york welco, you've e senate getting together in december to decide what to do with the millionaire's tax. so there's some things that can be done in the short-term.

but it does come down to action and a vetting process and getting people in there that will recognize that the middle class is getting run over. >> well, it's an honor to call you my colleague and my friend. >> i feel the same way, dylan. very passionate. >> two dogs in the yard. but we're working together. again, make sure you check out ed tonight, 10:00 here on msnbc. and for that matter, every night. that will do it for us. you know who i am. there's ed. before we go, i just want to compliment every last one of you on the remarkable -- i mean, you guys have blown me away. if you look at what is happening on the accumulation of the singular focus that is this get money out concept. if we together, you, me, and everybody involved can deliver the culture of integrity and the bulletproof privacy that will be required for this thing to grow, i do not know what its potential is, but it's surely much more than what we currently have tapped into. that excites me,ç i hope it excites you, and "hardball's" up right now.