sitting here pondering the meaning of existence. >> it sounds like somebody smoked a bowl. >> one more, a tweet jen go, yo knew this was coming after the show on friday. i'm awake because i haven't been asleep after bama's beat down of vanderbilt. 34-0 was the final score. "morning joe" starts right now. rick perry, he's a christian, an evangelical christian, a follower of jesus christ. mormonism is not christianity, it's been considered a cult by the mainstream of christianity. it's the difference between a christian and a non-christian. >> are you suggesting that religious beliefs should trump competence to be president? >> yes, to religious people, kara, religion matters. those of us who are evangelicals

have a right to select a competent christian over a competent non-christian. and again, it's not the only issue, it's certainly one issue. >> good morning, it's monday, october 10th. welcome to "morning joe." with us onset, we have the executive editor at random house and historian john meacham. also with us, msnbc political analyst, former democratic congressman, harold ford jr. willie? >> yes, ma'am. >> i'm sorry. that was a sweet try, though, those boys. >> sweet. >> it was close for a while. >> then it wasn't. >> then it wasn't. >> actually, it was -- >> i'm not going to bring it up. >> wasn't it fun to be in alabama? that's a beautiful campus, a beautiful stadium. >> and great people. >> thank you. >> it was a great time. >> really cool people. >> the football game was the smallest part of it, actually.

we had an amazing weekend. and like you said, willie, the people were great down there. and they treated you great. one guy came up to willie, actually, at the parade, the homecoming parade and he was wearing a vandy t-shirt. the women come up, that's so cute. isn't that sweet? and if you wear an auburn shirt, they'll yell hateful things. but if you have a vanderbilt -- one guy took a picture. >> do they say things like you're really good at college bowl. >> willie says that, but we went over a reception at the president's place right before the game. and willie was besieged by -- >> i'm sure he was. everyone loves him. >> he was besieged by fans, by vanderbilt fans. i was sitting in the corner looking up at the weeping willows while everyone was around willie. >> it's that power house. way too early. >> john meacham, we're going to be talking about theology today.

but true it is that a prophet is not respected in his own. >> i know. >> they love willie, they love you. mika ran the stairs. >> i did. >> at the stadium. >> i couldn't get in on friday -- or on thursday, i tried every gate, 50 of them. >> tommy ford -- >> tommy ford and coach saban got me a free pass into the stadium. and i ran every step. you on the other hand. >> did coach saban like being with us or not? >> he did. very nice guy. >> he had the game on his mind. >> no, that was huge -- that was a very generous act for him. >> that was very generous. >> before the game. >> speaking of the game really quickly then we'll move on. so much to talk about today, including comments at the top of the show. >> important comments about the economy -- >> vanderbilt actually did have a chance to make that a game. it was much closer than we

expected. they had a chance, couple of miscalls. that could have been a very tight game, at least going into the second half. >> the story of vanderbilt since i've known them, strong defense, keeps it close early on, missed a couple of field goals, that would have made it a tight game, and your offense can't keep up with that defense of alabama. >> that is the best -- that is the best -- that's the best vanderbilt team i've seen in 25 years. they hung tough. harold ford, you saw it. they hung tough. an alabama team that's going to be number one this year that's just the talent is extraordinary. and vandy held them tough. >> alabama, lsu, auburn, there's depth on those teams. vanderbilt's got one line on defense and half of an offense. >> they're on the field the whole game. >> no doubt about it. >> for a two-year school. >> oh. >> they're doing great. >> sitting waiting for your moment. >> well done. >> you're just like those

tennessee fans. they love their vandy fans. >> i think they've come a long way as they work for that four-year accreditation. >> there's a lot to talk about today, mika. of course, we have the comments off the top, which, again, are -- we'll get to those in a little bit. but also, though, something actually very disturbing in the "new york times." and it just shows increasing despair among americans as this -- as this -- well, they're not saying it's a recession. it seems worse than a recession right now. but this economic state that we're in continues to drone on. >> we seem to be barraged over the weekend with every angle. new angles. we have a look at new census data that shows a disturbing trend of u.s. incomes. this shows that from june 2009, the official end of the

recession until june of this year, medium incomes fell 6.7%. that decline was more than double the 3.2% fall that occurred during the recession. which lasted from december 2007 to june 2009. now, those numbers only raised the pressure on the frustrating debate in washington. on "meet the press" yesterday, house budget committee paul ryan claimed the president's plan is a rehash of programs that have not worked in the past. >> we have a difference of opinion with the white house on how best to create jobs. we don't think doubling down on failed stimulus policies, which have already proven to fail is the right way to go. we want to work with ideas that have proven to work. that means helping small businesses grow, that means getting certainty on our policy, regulations, taxes, debt, so that small businesses can grow. temporary stimulus, sugar high economics are now what businesses are telling us they need to create jobs. >> after president obama fired back at some of his critics

during his weekly radio address saying republicans who have a better plan to jump start job creation should "prove it." the senate is expected to vote on the american jobs act this week. >> it would just seem to me logically whether you were running a business that was in trouble or whether you were running a football team that was in trouble or whether you were in a row boat that was in trouble that, john meacham, if the business or the football team were failing or if the row boat were sinking, you would do something. you would talk to the guy on the other side of the row boat and say, we're going to have to figure something out. while republicans and democrats fight and do nothing, millions and millions of americans suffer. suffer so much. and the suffering continues. part of the problem with the decline in incomes is the fact that people have given up looking for work. because there are no jobs to be

had. >> right. i was in an airport security line this weekend. and a little kid was in front of me with his father. and the security guard said, well, you don't have a license yet because i guess you don't have a job yet. of course, nobody has a job. and it was just -- when it becomes something that's so, you know, just conversationally common, it becomes ever more culturally important. i think the political system that you saw, the ryan back and forth to the president, the political system's not commenwi economic challenges. >> and i would tell you, harold ford, i made no secret of the fact i like paul ryan very much ideologically on small government issues. i am very lined up with him. i've known him for a very long time. but even me with as much as i like paul ryan -- and this is not about paul ryan. this is a warning to my

republican friends. when i hear paul ryan talking like that, i start to think even the guys up there i like are on another planet. america is -- i don't want to hear you talk about why barack obama's got it wrong anymore. and when barack obama talks about the republicans and george w. bush, i feel the same way. i feel like they're on another planet. stop talking to us about why the other guy comes up short. start talking to each other and give, not me, not you, not you, not you, give the millions of people who are suffering -- give them a reason to believe, a reason to hope that things will get better. work it out between yourselves. and then come talk to us. >> there's no doubt. they're as -- to jon's point and your eloquent passionate point, there's not only disconnect between people in government, there's palpable frustration and

disgust with the american people and political leaders. i was critical of paul ryan over a year ago, almost a year ago with his medicare plan. i think it helped democrats win key seats. but i would differ slightly with you, joe, in this respect. i felt paul ryan yesterday opened a door, provided some path for democrats and republicans to find some agreement. there was one point in his dialogue with david yesterday where he talked about business tax cuts. and how there may be some agreement amongst democrats and republicans along that path. if, indeed, there is around the payroll tax cut and cutting the corporate tax cut -- tax rate, excuse me, at least you begin to see some path to some kind of compromise. two, the times yesterday, there was an interesting piece in the business section, slow downs every time with such precision that the "times" decided to write about them yesterday. they indicate we're in a recession again and we're going to find ourselves probably in a

worse recession than we were before. it cries out for president obama to get -- to leave his state and fixed position and for republicans, including paul ryan to leave their state and fixed position and begin to find compromise. >> again -- >> it is a good word to your point to the american people. >> i need to clarify. i don't mean to make this all about paul ryan. we could've put anybody up on that screen. my mother up on the screen if she'd been blaming barack obama say, ma, talk to him, let's get something done here. >> the difference between those people, paul ryan and barack obama have the ability to get something done. >> well, in terms of whether or not our status is, this is like last time, a delayed reaction. let's just face it. the demonstrations, by the way, that's happening in new york, that is beginning to take shape a little bit. it was interesting to see the coverage over the weekend. people had different takes on it. some people say it is a really growing movement. the demonstrations, of course, are the ones against corporate

greed and social inequality that began on wall street. they're gaining momentum now throughout the country. now entering their 24th day, the protests are drawing the attention of politicians with democratic congressman john lewis saying the event reminded him of the civil rights movement. new york city mayor michael bloomberg saying a focus on big banks could drive jobs away and hurt new york's economy. and that is the city's economy. republican presidential candidate herman cain who acknowledged some protesters have taken to thes because they're unemployed doubled down on his belief that jealous is a driving force in the demonstration. okay. he also suggested that attendees focus from wall street to washington. >> why aren't there jobs? go and picket the white house. the thing that this administration does not get is that the business sector is the engine of economic growth. that's key. they don't get that.

so this president and administration wants to continue to try and spend our way to prosperity. part of it is jealous, i standby that. and here's why i don't have a lot of patience for that. my parents, they never played the victim card. my parents never said that we hope that the rich people lose something so we can get something. no, my dad's idea was, i want to work hard enough so i can buy a cadillac, not take somebody else's. >> all right. they were also called out by that candidate for class warfare. eric cantor is echoing that, as well. you know, i think they symbolize something. i think we should take them very seriously. especially after the census bureau information. >> the symbol is clear. there is anger, growing anger amongst people about a lack of jobs. the question is whether or not policies and political leaders and policies political leadership will emerge to jon's point. and whether or not new policies will emerge. i don't think blaming business

alone is the answer. there's no doubt there was some greed. but at the end of the day, without a healthy banking system, who lends money? the federal level, the federal government, certainly this white house has to come to understand that if you place regulation on top of regulation on top of regulation of our financial institutions, it's difficult for them to lend. and two, if our larger business section main street does not feel some certainty around regulations and tax reform or the tax regime they'll be faced with, joe, how can they create jobs? if you and i run a company and we're answerable to shareholders and they're asking us to spend more money and we don't know what the framework will look like a year from now, our job is at stake. >> it is the uncertainty here. you hear from business people all the time. willie? >> i think it was heartening we now see occupy wall street moving to washington where we thought they should be in the first place. it's clear we're not being met

with politics with the seriousness of the problem. at the end of the recession, when it was supposedly terrible, 24 weeks. so it's just gotten worse in a couple of years since the recession technically ended. that's the frustration you're seeing on the streets, and i'm glad to see the movement to washington. >> and you can see the numbers not just about the unemployed, but who we're turning out of colleges and how successful they are, and jobs they're getting, and who's going to college. it's a all declining. >> mayor bloomberg, a good friend of ours, but he came out in defense of the banks and said if you crack down on the banks, something sort of like what harold's talking about. you crack down on the banks, that hurts the banks, that costs new york city more jobs. >> it may. i just think -- >> i --

>> it's -- i don't think that's the mayor's finest hour of political communication. i think this is -- what's extraordinary to me about this is it's three years almost too late in a way. i think a lot of us expected there to be this kind of reaction in '08. >> right. >> and the triumph of economic populism only carry the day. i don't think people want to be told that if you say something about big banks that seem to be doing just fine when people, ordinary people do not seem to be -- to defend the big banks in this way is politically tone deaf. and the populism in this country is such that this is a very mild expression of it. >> it is. let me ask you this, make a historical reference, and you tell me whether we're there or not. it seems to me if you're going to reform wall street, if you're

going to reform the banking system, it's going to be impossible for a democrat to do it. it seems to me, you need a tiara type character. the guy that came from the most affluent part of new york society, but yet somebody that busted up -- a democrat could've never -- williams jennings bryant could've never busted up the trust, but t.r. did bust them up. are we at a stage now where too big to fail continues to get bigger by the day? and there are three or four banks that are going to completely dominate american commerce? >> i think that's a very good point. yes, probably. to go cold warrior to open the way to china. i think that's certainly possible. that a republican administration would be more effective politically in reforming the financials. >> there's nobody out there. there's no t.r. out there right now. >> no.

john mccain tried to style himself that way in the last decade. but there's not a figure that you would reach out and say this is the guy you want in there to fix this so that we can get growth going again. >> mika, let's -- we're going to have to go to break soon, but you had a couple of clips you wanted -- >> yeah, given this conversation even, it's hard to think of someone like eric cantor, who we like very much. >> we like everybody, don't we? >> no, we like him. but i disagree with him on many levels. especially this one, he called the occupy wall street members mobs who are pitting america against one another. and nancy pelosi fired back over the weekend. >> i didn't hear him say anything when the tea party was out demonstrating actually spitting on members of the capitol and he and his colleagues were putting signs in the window encouraging them. we would have a king if we were all of one mind, we don't, we have different views.

and the part of the democracy of our country is the expression that people give and the constitution guarantees that. >> this is one of the things about washington that just makes leaders in that town so disrespected by the american people. when the tea party goes out to protest, you have nancy pelosi supporters calling them mobsters, nazis. just a couple of months ago, terrorists, hostage takers. and then the second the left starts to get motivated and goes out and protests, now you have the right calling them mobs. is there a shortage of mirrors in washington, d.c.? >> politics feels -- >> there is no self-awareness. >> politics feels to the american people, especially right now like theater. you could almost script it.

>> bad theater. >> this side will put out a proposal, and the other side will immediately before it's even published sent out a release attacking it. no one discusses the two sides of it. their job is to make the other side the enemy, to attack the other side and not to come together on anything. and it's killing us right now. >> mika, how can you be so unaware? how can you lack self-awareness to the degree that you call these wall street protesters "a mob" when you criticize the left for saying the same thing about the tea party for 2 1/2 years? >> they are so tone deaf not to take these -- i think these protests will grow because of the tone deafness in washington. they may start out in a way that perhaps we don't completely understand small and maybe not even completely applicable to the people are really hurting, but let me tell you, they are not. they're in alaska, they're everywhere, they're across the country, they're around the world. okay? there's a problem.

and these people do need to focus their message. there are a lot of really interesting op-eds assessing what they are. i'll tell you why, because we know better than to not take them seriously. >> people without jobs, worried about their homes, worried about their children. you can't deny that reality. you may not like the way they express it, but you can't deny that reality. >> exactly. >> we have one other big story to get to before we -- maybe we'll do it next break. coming up, we'll talk to columnist julia reed. also mike florio. up next, this morning's political playbook. but first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> you brought the warmth from alabama back with you. it was incredible this weekend in the northeast, mid-atlantic, great lakes, everyone was toasty, like the middle of summer. it was 84 yesterday in new york. can you believe it was 87 in

boston? in the first week in october? it snowed occasionally in october in boston. today is another beautiful summer like day. tomorrow will be a little bit cooler and wednesday it's going to rain throughout this entire region. so enjoy today. this is about it. now, as far as the wet weather goes, that storm is now in florida, very soggy forecast from atlanta to columbia, down to charleston, and that will move eventually north wards throughout the remainder of today and tomorrow and arriving in the northeast on thursday. summer refuses to end in chicago and minneapolis. you're still going to be in the 70s. and those leaves are changing, but the sunshine and the heat continues. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

over 700 people who were part of the occupy wall street demonstrations were arrested

this past weekend in new york when they tried to block traffic on the brooklyn bridge. because there's nothing people on wall street hate more than not being able to get to brooklyn. the latest issue of "espn" features jose reyes posing naked. he says he's not embarrassed because plenty of great athletes have played for the mets. >> pretty good. 26 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. the "wall street journal," the u.s. government is using a secret court order to force google and another web provider to hand over e-mails from a wikileaks volunteer, despite the fact that the volunteer hasn't been charged with crimes. the electronics communications privacy act provides a unique look into the government's powers to obtain information from people's e-mail and cell phones without a search warrant. and the "san francisco chronicle," before a midnight deadline. jerry brown rushes to sign into

law a controversial health care bill. one requiring health plans to cover key autism treatment and yet another allowing children as young as 12 to seek prevention treatment for sexually transmitted disease such as hpv without parental consent. also on the legislation, a ban on girls and boys under the age of 18 using tanning beds. >> how about a ban on tanning beds? now to the parade of papers. the charlotte observer, democrats from across the country are getting a look at the city that will host for next year's democratic convention. around three dozen party officials from 14 states began gathering in charlotte over the weekend. yesterday's visit is the first of three by officials from around the country. that's a quick look at the papers. now time for politico. >> let's go to politico. >> for that we turn to mike allen. he's got a look at the playbook. good morning. >> happy monday, willie. >> happy monday, mike. we've been following this back

and forth about mitt romney's mormon faith over the weekend. it came up again as an issue over the weekend. walk us through this back and forth. >> yeah, well, what we see is a clear romny strategy. and they settled this long ago, and that's that he's not going to let mormon attacks go. he's going to call them out. at the summit over the weekend here in washington, they got wind of the fact that one of the ministers who was going to be there had made a variety of attacks on mormonism over the years. and sure enough, he took the bait on friday. he told reporters that -- the evangelical minister said that mormon is not christian. so mitt romney and his remarks, he talked about someone -- he didn't directly engage. but he said that our values are not to attack people like that. and so we saw the leading edge of the fact that the campaign book using the candidate directly and through the

surrogates are going to say that they think people who attack mormons are being bigots. it's a very important issue in south carolina where an early voting state, iowa another early voting state where evangelicals are big. they're being proactive and calling out people that call out the government. >> it's distressing that a couple of presidential candidates on the republican side were given an opportunity to distance themselves from these words. that even the most conservative christians are saying it's bad theology, and these candidates refused to do it. herman cain refused to do it, michele bauchmann refused to do it, talked about everything else, but did not distance themselves from these deplorable, deplorable statements. interesting, jon meacham. we e-mailed back and forth last night, i sent you a column that one of the policy leaders in

george w. bush's administration, an evangelical christian, a great thinker. interesting take from pete. he said the standard is religious belief should trump competence when it comes to selecting a president. this view is, of course, at odds with those of martin luther who once famously said he'd prefer to be ruled by a competent turk over an incompetent christian. and as we go on, he also wrote this. in his letter to newport, rhode island, president washington wrote these beautiful words. may the children of abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of other inhabitants while everyone shall sit safely under his own vine and fig tree. and there shall be none to make him afraid. george washington wrote was a better general and president and

a better theologian. >> earlier in that letter, washington wrote the point of the united states government is to give persecution no assistance. and my feeling over the weekend was, you know, the poor founders. they do such a brilliant job. they manage to ground human rights, the fundamental promise and premise of america in the creator of inalienable rights, then they do the constitution which there's no religious test for office, the first amendment religious liberty. they find a way for us to avoid the worst parts of the old world, and yet we do everything we can to try to screw it up. >> almost like they knew we would. >> they did. they did. >> you know, it's one of the things that pete said yesterday. of all the things that are going wrong in america, one of the things we can take great pride in is the fact that we get religion right here. and we have for over 225 years.

that everybody as george washington said, you know, is safe under his own vine and fig tree. that we can worship as we choose. and yet this bigotry rises up from a rick perry supporter. will rick perry come out and openly condemn this statement as bigotry? because it is bigotry. >> it is. and there are two points here it seems to me. one, this is happening from a position of weakness, not of strength. this is about 13 weeks early. i think this means that the conservatives are much more worried about romney than they might be letting on. >> so they're doing here what ted kennedy did in massachusetts. back in his senate campaign when the going gets tough, you attack a man's faith. >> this is put out there earlier than one would've expected. because it is huge in south carolina, it could be important in iowa, and so it's happening early. the other thing is it just -- i

don't think people care. people care about what we talked about at the beginning. they care about jobs, they care about economic growth, and the more -- if i were romney, i wouldn't feel that badly about this. i'm about jobs, not about -- >> bigotry. >> when do you believe -- first of all, i think this helps president obama in some ways because this display -- >> and he went through his own version of this. >> when will mitt romney give the kind of race and religion speech? because then senator obama had to address comments about his own pastor and religion at the same time. do you think some point romney will have to give that speech in light of the fact -- >> absolutely not. if i'm mitt romney, i hope that all of these people keep allowing bigots to get up and speak for me. >> this hurts rick perry in my republican party. far more than it hurts mitt romney. they've been there, they've done that.

you know what? everybody that's taken these polls that put mitt romney so far ahead in new hampshire in america, they know he's a mormon. and you know what? chances are really good they work with mormon, their kids go to school with mormon, and they understand these are some of the best and brightest we have in america. my republican party is good with it. and my republican party always decides who the nominee's going to be. not jeffrey's republican party. he's from another age. >> and remember, where did mitt romney go in 2008 to deliver this kind of speech about religious liberties? >> texas. >> he went to college station, to george herbert walker bush's library. >> which is where again? texas where? >> texas a&m, baby. >> where rick perry went to school. >> yep. >> and joe asked about a response of rick perry to campaign with a one-line statement yesterday. the governor does not believe

mormonism is a cult from the rick perry campaign. >> how about condemning your supporter? >> how about your fellow republican presidential candidates not swirling down the toilet on this -- >> i don't know if i would put it that way. >> i would. >> but mike allen, politico very quickly. you did write about how michele bauchmann and herr main cain and others sidestep this issue. >> right. that statement is what my mom calls a day late and a dollar short, a debate tomorrow where rick perry will have an opportunity to be more aggressive. mr. meacham right now editing a mormon history book. >> there you go. your own book of mormon -- >> mike allen knows everything. >> he does. >> playbook is a cult. >> it is a good cult to -- >> in the best sense of the word. >> yes, it is. >> mike, thanks so much. appreciate it.

>> we drink starbucks coffee. michael vick in the team formally known as the dream team goes down again. falling to the third ranked buffalo bills. i wish you guys had layaway -- well... 'cause i could pay a little at a time... that would work. actually we do -- the kids would just be like, "no way, awesome!" we -- we do! all that! layaway baby! [ male announcer ] layaway's back for christmas. starting october 17th.

[ male announcer ] layaway's back for christmas. can i help you? yeah, can i get a full-sized car? for full-sized cars, please listen to the following menu. for convertibles, press star one. i didn't catch that. to speak to a representative, please say representative now. representative. goodbye! you don't like automated customer service, and neither do we. that's why, unlike other cards, no matter when you call chase sapphire preferred, you immediately get a person not a prompt. chase sapphire preferred. a card of a different color. (phone ringing) chase sapphire preferred, this is julie in springfield.

all right. let's get to sports, shall we? the nfl green bay packers trying to remain one of the two unbeaten teams. the other one plays at home tonight in detroit. aaron rogers and the pack visiting atlanta. an early 14-point lead, but from there, it was all rogers. jennings across the middle, weaves his way, gets to the corner. nice play for the touchdown there. rogers throws for almost 400 yards, green bay puts up 25 unanswered points to win 25-14, they are perfect, 5-0, and said the detroit lions play tonight. they host the bears, they could go to 5-0 themselves. how about this? the san francisco 49ers putting the whooping on the bucks yesterday. certainly looks like it now. that's alex smith, the former number one pick. hits wide receiver delani walker.

san francisco improves 4-1. playing in new england, unbeaten since the regular season in 2008. yesterday, they kept the streak alive. tom brady hits welker. 73 yards, he's actually brought down at the 10, he's got a nice set of wheels on him. back to the end zone. throws for more than 300 yards. >> where's the defense? >> 30-21 is the win. >> where is the defense? >> jets now lead their third conservative game, they are now 2-3. >> a lot of people talking about offense. that defense looked horrible. and sanchez, turned in some gutty performances. you can't lay this on his shoulder or the offense's

shoulder. >> no, and you've got to have a running game if you're going to throw the ball too. another contender in the afc is the buffalo bills playing at home against the struggling eagles. under two minutes to go, eagles driving around third and three, vick not getting much help here. >> you're kidding. >> nick barnette, michael vick caused four interceptions, buffalo bills 4-1. eagles in a complete freefall. dropping to 1-4. >> the bills turning around. live seeing that. that's a great story. i hate to see michael vick getting pounded every week and not getting the support the guy needs. >> you know who would love this turn around? the late great -- >> no doubt about it. >> they look like they're for real. the afc west, denver broncos starting the day with a 1-3 record and they turn to the young man, mr. tim tebow, they were down by 16 points in the first quarter.

so they put in tebow. >> my main man. >> tebow engineers a 50-yard drive. using his feet. scramble, a 12-yard run for a touchdown. >> look at that! go gators, baby. >> two minutes later, denver gets the ball back, tebow again under pressure, finds shawn marino, 28 yards, for a two-point conversion. >> look at these guys playing for tebow! >> this is a two-pointer, failed, still a two-point game. they do get the ball back. this is the last play of the game. watch the scramble by tebow. gets away from three guys and gets one more shot at the end zone. perfect throw, actually. >> not a bad throw. >> that guy is a winner. >> knocked down in the end zone. broncos lose 29-24, chargers are 1-4. >> you know, willie geist, tim tebow, he's just a winner. >> he is. >> he is. and i've said that all along

even when he was with the gators. >> please. >> no, he's a winner. >> he's a football player. >> no, he knows what it takes to win. >> they will now. give him a shot. they'll give him a chance. go gators. >> mika's must-read opinion pages coming up next. so, how was school today ?

i have to be a tree in the school play. good. you like trees. well, i like climbing them, but i've never been one. good point. ( captain ) this is your captain speaking.

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welcome back to "morning joe." 47 past the hour. >> hold on a second. what did you say? >> how about the brewers? >> this is what i love about this show. >> it's time now for must-read opinion pages. >> it's 6:47. if anybody on the east coast were playing like the brewers, we would've talked about them for the first 30 minutes. i am self-aware. unlike politicians in washington, d.c. and we are -- we are not being fair to this central --

>> i love -- >> the central time zone team. they're incredible. >> you've got two great midwestern beer towns, these guys are good. and this comes because the cardinals got a huge pitching performance on saturday night from chris carpenter to knock the phillies out of the series. >> that saturday night game was one of the best pitching duels. you'd have to go back to the braves playing the twins back in '91. >> it was remarkable. they've got a special thing going. it's a small market. if you like sports, you like to see little guys, davids beat goliaths. >> can you imagine a detroit and brewers' series? >> think about st. louis, they were 10 1/2 games out. >> it's a remarkable story.

but i'll tell you what, texas, those rangers. those texas rangers, a lot to be -- >> i love him. >> joe -- >> time now for must-read opinion pages. >> leaves the sox and goes down to the rangers. "new york times," it's called the panic -- by paul krugman. it remains to be seen whether the occupy wall street protests will change america's direction. yet the protests have already elicited a remarkably hysterical reaction from wall street. the super rich in general and politicians and pundits who reliablely serve the interests of the wealthiest .01%. what's going on here? wall street's masters of the universe realize how morally indefensible their position is. they're not even steve jobs, they're people who got rich by peddling complex, financial schemes that far from delivering benefits to the american people

helped push us into a crisis whose after effects continue to blight the lives of fellow americans. not the protesters who are trying to get their voices heard. no, the real extremists here are america's oligarchs. i'm sorry, but that's pretty good. anyone disagree? >> it's hard to disagree with him. but i would remind mr. krugman that a profit was made on the t.a.r.p., that the banks paid the money back. at some point, we have to decide as a country, do we want to nationalize the banks? if you want to nationalize them, nationalize them. otherwise you have to let them operate in business -- >> the thing is -- >> we may have to break up the banks. >> let's do it. >> and not an either or, though. paul krugman said some things,

and i always disagree with krugman. but in this case, paul krugman's right, that the top 1% of the top 1% made billions and bals of dollars with complex financial instruments that do not -- do not transfer -- >> where do we go from here? you're a big believer of saying, where do we go from here? and there are financial institutions now dead because of that. where do we go from here? the economy doesn't grow unless there's funding from the financial system. >> well, but the problem is right now that you've got three or four banks that if they were to go -- if they were to make more horrific decisions and go belly up, we'd be bailing them out again. we are not where we were in 2008, we are in a worse position than 2008 because the banks have gotten even bigger. >> the banks are not necessarily in a worse position than they were in 2008. the economy's in a worse position. >> the banks are in good shape -- >> the regulations that have placed on them, the expectations in terms of capital

requirements, if that's what we want, we have to expect and accept the reality. >> the bigger problem is, and we talked to jeffrey sachs about this last week, we have a political system that worries about next week. we need to rip things out from under the hood. and what we have to do, harold, is we've got to get to a point where all of these obscene incentives that we put into the system back in the 1980s to make a quick buck, to make a quick billion on wall street, we've got to go in and discourage some of that behavior. and we've got to get wall street working for main street again. they have for a long time, but now wall street works for wall street and main street gets left behind. an airline has planes and people. and the planes can seem the same. so, it comes down to the people. because: bad weather,

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it is time, isn't it? >> it is time for news you can't use. let's do "snl," shall we? the opening sketch had a fake group of republicans still begging chris christie to get into the race. >> oh, no. >> i know you want me to run. but this? this can't go national. my style works in one place, new jersey. if i run for president, i've got to go to places like mississippi in june. i mean, can you picture me in the mississippi heat in june?

taking questions from some yokel while i breathe like tony soprano. he's a nice man in a clean suit that wants to be president. you owe him an apology. >> sorry. >> i can't hear you. >> sorry! >> oh, i can't stay mad at you meatballs. and by the way -- wait, mitt, ear muffs. >> you got it. >> i'm going to run in 2016, i just can't do it now. let's just say i've got to make a couple things go away first. but after this guy loses, i'll run in four years, come on, it writes itself. >> oh, my lord. >> coming up next, julia reed joins the conversation.

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well, we're talking about a southern phenomenon, talking about it right now. my wife, i'm starting to see like garden and -- it's like this southern magazine that julia reed's involved in and you're involved in. >> i like julia. >> julia's my daughter's

godmother. >> i absolutely love her. >> it's a duty julia's not taken lightly. >> we have got to have a show down in new orleans. >> "garden and gun" magazine in charleston. >> welcome back to "morning joe." jon meacham, harold ford jr. with us, and joining us the table is author and journalist, the woman that jon meacham said an evening with is not to be undertaken lightly. columnist and contributing editor to "garden and gun." so what exactly do you mean, jon meacham, when you say an evening with julia reed is not to be undertaken lightly. >> it's rich with literary illusions. >> that's not -- >> political insight. >> any liquor involved? >> oh.

i think you suggested she was a drunkard. >> what's in that cup? >> no, no. she's corrupting influence on others. on others. >> you appointed me godmother to your eldest daughter. >> and one of the reasons my 7-year-old now smokes. >> all right. >> so julia, let me ask you about this. i mean, you know, i'm a southern guy, you're southern. we have been around these politicians that go around screaming about jesus in a way that offends main line -- that offends southern baptists. that this past weekend we had this pastor jeffess calling mormonism a cult and saying mitt romney was unworthy to be president. what is it about somebody -- >> southern baptists? >> no, not southern baptists.

i'm a southern baptist. i mean, main street southern baptist. it just seems that people take it to an extreme too often. >> well, i mean, they always have. listen, i was -- when you grew up just like me, i'm sure there was still tent revivalists coming through town. >> there still are. >> that was a huge big deal when the end of the world was predicted, when was the rapture going to happen a few months ago? >> last week. >> that used to be predicted about once a week in our neighborhood, especially where mr. meacham lived. >> north florida sort of gulf coast, cracker kind of florida. and i'm -- >> i'm proud of it. >> i'm from a more sophisticated part of mississippi. >> i'm proud of it. >> yeah, the delta. exactly. >> no, i just -- they're always rearing their heads and saying something. episcopalians, that's a cult. >> a cult is religion with which you disagree. >> help me translate this.

this is megachurch pastor robert jeffers talking about mitt romney's faith. take a look. >> rick perry's a christian, an evangelical christian, a follower of jesus christ. mitt romney's a good, moral person, but he's not a christian. mormonism is not christianity, it's been considered a cult by the mainstream of christianity. it's the difference between a kr christian and a nonchristian. >> that's okay, that's how we operate. we haven't seen it -- >> -- too often, haven't you? it's not okay. i mean -- and it's certainly not -- >> the good news is -- >> if you're herman cain, michele bauchmann, wouldn't you say something -- wouldn't you -- >> of course you would. >> that's wrong. >> absolutely. >> you would say that is ridiculous. that's crazy. >> that's ridiculous. >> wouldn't that be your

initial, your instinctive reaction? >> if you were rick perry? >> no, if you were michele bauchmann and asked about it. >> that's one of the reason the field makes me -- it's making everybody a little bit queasy in their gut because nobody does have any guts and there's not a real conversation going on. we wish our friends -- hailey barbour would be the first person to stand up and say that. -- >> there aren't enough people in the party to stand up and tell these people to shut up. i've been called the rhino because i said in the fall while sarah palin in the fall -- didn't have what it took, she was a little crazy out there. some of the statements she said, the same thing with michele bauchmann. the mainstream republicans aren't standing up and calling any of this stuff out because they're afraid that they'll be kicked to the side. >> they're still afraid of the nonexistent christian coalition, and it's all the sort of history

of all that stuff. but i just feel like that if they don't start saying stuff like that, we're going to go down a pretty icky road. >> all of this helps barack obama. >> yeah. that's why the republicans are -- >> this is a display of the republican party, i think, that scares mainstream voters and certainly excites -- >> the problem is, it's not representative of the republican party because the republican establishment won't call it out and all the talk show hosts will rally around the comments. >> if somebody was talking about a religion other than his own. but the rest of them, i mean, there's no backbone left. the tragedy of this election is you don't have anybody -- like when mitch daniels and hailey -- that would have been just such a dream. these guys who are actually having conversations, have a backbone, say something against what the preacher said in ten seconds or less. it's not happening.

>> you grew up on the mississippi delta, right? >> mm-hmm. >> but you've moved to new orleans. how is that working for you? talking about why you moved to new orleans. >> well, i moved to new orleans from new york, not from mississippi. you've got to go a long way to get back down. >> yeah. >> yeah, we all went north toward home to quote the famous book. and if you're southern, most of us -- you kept going on home. then you come up here and you go back. i went down to new orleans to cover a really crazy election. our formally incarcerated governor was running against -- >> we were friends, by the way. go ahead. >> david duke would have been the governor otherwise. and i just got kind of seduced. and then, you know, i kind of commuted back and forth and katrina came as you all know,

and you did such a great job of reminding people about it daily. and i kind of stuck around. and now new orleans is actually, you know, you've got to take your silver linings where you find them. there's not a whole lot to do about a hurricane. new orleans is in better shape and has a brighter future than i ever would've thought it would have before katrina. >> a lot of reform. when we went down and did an education showdown there with starbucks, what shocked us, and you were there. the energy and excitement of young people across america and the world saying i'm coming to this town, and i'm going to make a difference. >> and beforehand, you know, if your kid from new orleans went out of town and went to college, they were never coming back. now you've got local kids coming back and so many across the country because so many nonprofits popping up. the water left town and they stayed. and now you've got all of these sort of -- something called idea village. there's an entrepreneurial

spirit there that was never there. all of these guys were sort of hanging out in their law firms and content to, you know, hope their kids were going to be queen of carnival. and meanwhile, the whole city was flattened in the mississippi river. government, who cares, and schools, nothing we can do about it. >> you just described tennessee's current state right now. >> most of tennessee has an economy, at least, at least nationally. new orleans now has -- the best hope for new orleans or anywhere else that was in the shape it was in is an education system. but politically, you can't just nuke a public school system. but that's what happened. >> let's talk housing. >> housing is definitely coming back. i mean, we're still in a huge rebuilding effort believe it or not. but, you know, the school system is to me the most important thing that there is. from the -- you'd never have the opportunity to recreate a system from the ground up. now you can send your kids to public school and charter

schools and hope that they -- there's a possibility they might actually be able to read. which means businesses can move to town because they don't have to pay absorprices to send theis to school. >> there's no question. but, you know, haley did a good job from day one. he called the national guard before the hurricane. our governor didn't do that for a week. that was a small little problem. she didn't read like the governor's handbook. this is your job. but anyway, haley, you know, as much as i think haley is the genius of our time, haley did not have a flood. you've got to remember that the hurricane did not hit new orleans. a flood did. we didn't have the hurricane.

we dodged the bullet, it devastated mississippi. not only did it wipe out a city, it wiped out a city already on its knees and, you know, as you well know. sort of put a spotlight on all those problems. but it's been a blessing in a way because there was no -- there was no denying it. >> let's get to some other news this morning that actually plays into exactly what you were talking about. the recent census data out shows a very disturbing trend for u.s. incomes. this is according to a study that's spotlighted in today's "new york times" if you want to take a look at it. it shows from june 2009, which is the official end of the recession until the june of this year, medium incomes fell 6.7%. that decline more than doubled the 3.2% fall that occurred during the recession which lasted from december of 2007 to june of 2009. >> so jon, julie was talking about obviously education being important to bring jobs in.

you could talk about that nationwide right now. our economy is on its knees. we're undergoing something. we're in a transition right now. and not a very positive transition, but a quarter century of overleveraging being deleveraged all at once. this is something that the president can't take care of this in a jobs package. this is a generational problem. >> it's the first time in 30 years or so where you really have questions of whether the next generation will be better off than we were. and the answer right now is no in polls. the right track, wrong track is always the best presidential predictor. but i think we've all been -- i'm the first guy that's guilty of it, too focused ourselves on the next election quarter or the next cycle. >> we say jon meacham's always too focused on the next election. >> yeah. >> i don't know.

maybe it's the pulitzer prize thing. >> it's true, but it's natural because it's the narrative that is presented every day and all that. but if we are going to turn the growth numbers around at all. if we're going to change the graphic you just showed up, it's going to take as julie was saying about new orleans, it's going to take a long-term investment. and we talk about the marshall plan or sputnik. because it worked. >> you have to have something like a war or biblical flood coming and put it in motion. >> we've had both of those and -- >> it's hard to get -- >> harold, the biggest problem is, washington can't solve this. i mean, that is at the end of the day, most americans do not believe that you can magically put together a package that's going to reverse a 30-year trend. since 1971, 40-year trend.

since 1971, we've been losing manufacturing jobs. the middle class has been hallowing out. union membership's been declining. the president and the republicans can't just come up with a piece of legislation that's going to fix that. >> i would agree. but i think there's some things in the short-term that can be done to turn around confidence. think about six months ago, you had growth in manufacturing jobs in the country. it's easy -- not as hard because manufacturing jobs have been leaving. the next five years, exports and manufacturing is going to help the country rise again. you have $2 trillion on corporate balance sheets in u.s. corporations. that money can be spent. and you have about 1.2 trillion, $1.3 trillion. so there's some fundamentals we can probably figure out how to incent to be taken off the balance sheets and that money to be brought back. now, again, democrats and republicans have got to come

together to do it. they have to compromise. republicans will clearly have to compromise. i happen to believe a year's a long time. republicans beginning to build the momentum. that seems so long ago. three years ago, obama was getting ready to win. here we have a year from now, for the country's sake and republicans. i'm not quite as pessimistic about confidence returning. weap we certainly can put ourselves in the position to help address some of the underlying motivation and concerns of those with occupying washington who are right, jobs and housing -- >> let me ask, julia, you did a lot of reporting during the bush era. and you saw up close the impact on george bush and laura bush as they saw those approval numbers go down and the despair and this guy obama comes up and suddenly he's hope and change. it's happened to him too.

barack obama finds himself in the same position that george w. bush found himself in. three years into his presidency. >> well, it is nothing but the system. i remember thinking george bush after -- after he'd been in the second term started looking like -- remember president clinton's dog buddy? he always looked like he'd been under the house for too long. get this hang down look. i signed on for this what? >> i bet george w. bush is looking a lot better today. >> i think he's probably in a better mood today. >> probably is. >> but there's just -- jon, there's just something about the system, i don't know if it's a 24/7 news cycle. >> george washington wanted to quit because he didn't like criticism.

he had farewell addresses drafted for him. we started -- but sure, it's the loneliness of command. it's the oldest story in the world. since the first cave man took over responsibility for this guy in the next cave. and so the difference now is the stakes are enormous, more enormous than ever. and i do think that the attention and the capacity to have everyone comment on everything about yourself viciously and often anonymously and glibly, certainly, every second exacerbates -- one columnist calls it the elephant in the room. why the gop candidates are trying hard not to talk about foreign policy. the editor in chief of foreign policy magazine susan glasser up next, also coming up, chuck todd live from washington. but first, here's bill karins with a check on the

forecast. >> good monday, everyone. active weather down in florida and georgia. tornado watch for this early hour. kind of unusual. storm came onshore yesterday east coast of florida after soaking central florida yesterday. the worst of it is the most threatening weather from jacksonville, florida, up into southern georgia. haven't had too many reports of any damage yet. temperatures are already starting very warm in the northeast. leading the way, boston at 66 degrees. yesterday, boston was 87. today 79, still very warm for new york. showers and storms in kansas city and minneapolis, we're thankful for the rain. we had a lot of it over the weekend. and that's where we still desperately need that lot more. there's a start to our last summer day. you're watching "morning joe," brewed by starbucks.

i will not surrender america's role in the world. this is very simple.

if you do not want america to be the strongest nation on earth, i'm not your president. you have that president today. >> hey, with us now from washington, here's nbc news chief and white house correspondent and political director and host of "the daily rundown," chuck todd. also with us, susan glasser. a piece in the latest issue looks at the gop presidential candidate foreign policy credentials saying "barack obama's presidential challengers are trying hard not to talk about the rest of the world. it shows." we'll get to that in a minute. but first, chuck todd, we are wondering, is mitt romney going to trot out a speech on his religious world views? is he going to answer to some of the attacks he took this weekend? >> i think short-term he's not going to be doing that from what i understand.

you know, he did this during the primary campaign last time, but last time he was putting such an emphasis on iowa and south carolina. you know, joe, you tell me, i think part of the reason -- and there is sort of lore in romney world. and i think it's somewhat lore more than it is fact-based. but there was certainly some whispers. but they believe how huckabee won in iowa in 2008 was due to an anti-mormon whisper campaign. because of that belief, they talked themselves out of being able to win iowa, out of being able to win south carolina. and instead, he's trying to create another path, new hampshire, do well enough in iowa and south carolina and do another path where he doesn't have to get into this -- get into this religious debate with evangelicals about whether mormonism is part of christianity or not. that said, joe, if he's the nominee, i think it's a different conversation, and i think he's going to have to do

something again, sort of another speech like he gave four years ago. >> why is that? >> it's just -- when you're the nominee, every little thing about your life is even more magnifying than it is during a primary campaign. and so, for instance, going to church on sundays, where are you going to church, governor romney? where is it -- where are you going to go to church if you're inaugurated president of the united states? and so in that respect, it's symbolic, some of these questions that are going to get asked of him. but i think it is going to then spark that larger conversation. >> susan, in foreign policy in your magazine, the latest issue, there's a piece -- he says the world beyond america's borders just doesn't figure in the 2012 campaign. in the 2008 republican debates, candidates regularly crossed swords on the war in iraq and

the conduct of war on terror. at this year's first real debate held in manchester, new hampshire, the rest of the world wasn't even mentioned until more than 90 minutes into the two-hour event. i have a couple of ideas as to why that's the case. joe, your thoughts. >> i was just going to ask susan why she thought republicans were trying to stay away from foreign policy. >> because the biggest applause line usually goes to ron paul when he says lets get our troops out of afghanistan and come home. and that's not compatible with the usual line. we saw mitt romney resorting to that the other day. his speech in front of cadets in uniform giving applause when he says he unlike president obama believes in america's greatness. but really if your party wants you to come home and focus on america's struggles. >> it's also hard to outflank

obama on the right when he's tripled the number of troops in afghanistan and doubled down on a lot of dick cheney's war on terror policies. the president has given right-wing neo cons very little operating space, hasn't he? >> absolutely. if you look at it, ironically, barack obama this was perceived as his big weakness in 2008. well, no more, this is perceived as a strength of obama's relative to the u.s. economy and the jobs question. then you have people like romney coming out left saying, well, obama, you know, doesn't really believe in american exceptionalism. he's really not all about american greatness. i suspect that's not a theme they're going to emphasize because it's a hard sell to voters. this is not the campaign where people want to be hearing about red, white, and blue patriotism. usa, usa. >> one thing that the president does have, though, he shut down

gitmo like he promised within a year of -- i don't know what -- >> sorry. >> i don't know why you think that's funny because the president told us, gitmo is a moral crisis. >> right. >> in fact, its very existence undercuts what makes us a great country. >> sorry. >> i don't think you should make fun of our president and his most deeply held beliefs. >> yeah. >> i'm sorry, go ahead. >> speaking of the elephant in the room. >> wait, it's still open, my back. go ahead. >> speaking of the elephant in the room, even in the piece, the war and foreign policy wasn't mentioned until more than 90 minutes into the two-hour debate. it's not just the candidates who are avoiding foreign policy, it's the media. it's ten years in afghanistan. and it's not considered a primary question as to how these candidates would handle the war in a afghvenuaafghanistan?

how it plays into our crisis? >> there's a perception people don't care anymore. and in fact, people would rather talk about the intervention in libya than afghanistan where we have, avenue all, tens of thousands of troops there as part of the surge that obama himself ordered. that's a pretty key part of his record to be discussing. but i think there's the perception rightly or wrongly of a sort of world fatigue. let's talk about america at home. in the same issue, we have a piece by hillary clinton arguing that the u.s. rather than coming home should make a strategic pivot to asia. now that we're going to be left preoccupied with the middle east. well, how is that going to play? that's something that hillary clinton could say because she's not out on the campaign trail. but her point is, we have to resist what she calls the gravitational pull of the come home debates. you know, good luck with that. >> chuck todd, speaking of come home debates, i've said it before, i'll say it again. mika and i have had several books. we've gone out, had book tours, given lots of speeches.

i have yet over the past three years found one person to be able to answer the question, why are we spending $2 billion in afghanistan when our own infrastructure's collapsing? i have yet to have somebody stand up and challenge either mika or me when we say, it is time for us to wind down as quickly as possible in afghanistan unless we have a political leader explaining how spending another ten years will make us any safer. you can't find people in middle america defending this war. and yet, we pass the one decade mark, and i'll tell you what, talk to the generals, they'd like to stay another decade. america does want our troops to come home. >> well, that's another -- i think mika had this question about why isn't it coming up in the debates? there isn't a lot of disagreement per se among some of these candidates about this time line that even president obama laid out. every once in a while, a couple

of them try to hit him and say, well, he's putting out an arbitrary time line, which is sort of a talking point of some of the more conservative think tanks. and they'll say that, it doesn't get much applause as susan points out. and then you have mitt romney who i still don't know where he stands on president obama's plan to have this withdrawal over the nec couple of years. the one now and then the sustained withdrawal through 2014. he's, you know, he has actually -- it's very similar to rhetoric to what president obama said or more of what hillary clinton said about iraq back in 2007. i'll talk to the generals and i'll talk to -- and you're like, where are you on this? >> chuck todd, i know it's shocking, but in this one case in this one case only, mitt

romney's trying to split the difference. >> he knows that half of this party wants our troops to come home now, and he knows the smaller part of the party are neo cons. and you're right, he's struggling to find that center ground. >> and it's not there. >> we know it's not just the elephant in the room among the republican candidates. it's among the republican party. if you go on capitol hill and talk behind the scenes republicans, they will say quietly they are very frustrated with the position they feel they have to hold on this war. >> i think there's an elephant in everybody's living room. because i think -- >> i wish it was. it was sentiment people don't care. >> obama is responsible for killing bin laden, he uses the drones more effectively. he's demonstrated you may not need troops on the ground to

kill these leaders. irony, the 3:00 a.m. call from hillary clinton turned out what he's best at. >> joe -- >> what happens -- >> go ahead. >> what happens if you leave an unstable border between a afghanistan and pakistan? >> well, what happens if you leave an unstable border between afghanistan and pakistan in 2013 is the same thing that happens when you leave in 2023 or 2033, or 2043, there is not a policymaker in america or the world that can make a compelling case that the united states of america has a more stable world if we stay another decade with the current troop levels we have, chuck. it's afghanistan. >> i hear ya. but that's the problem. it's pakistan and nukes. >> it's pakistan and nukes. so guess what? if the problem's pakistan, we'll have to figure out a better way to take care of pakistan that

doesn't cost us $2 billion a week. >> susan glasser, thank you so much. the article is "the elephant in the room." chuck todd, thank you. >> who do you have on at 9:00? >> we've got the perry campaign, ray sullivan coming on, what happened over the weekend with the faith issue, debate tomorrow, lots of good stuff. >> we can't wait to see if they'll condemn the pastor. i'll be watching that. >> good point. on "morning joe" tomorrow -- oh, boy. dr. brzezinski will join us. also, george pataki. we also have princeton professor and activist cornell west. more "morning joe" in a moment. [ female announcer ] when kate collects her pink yoplait lids she's supporting breast cancer programs for her neighbour's tennis instructor's daughter's 1st grade teacher

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38 past the hour. nice look at washington, d.c. as the sun comes up this morning. welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful day. quick look at the headlines. german chancellor angela merkel and french president sarkozy vowing to do everything necessary to secure the european banking system. they will release a new plan to

recapitalize the banks and save greece from economic collapse by the november 3rd g-20 meeting. merkel and sarkozy stopped short of giving any details of the plan, but pledged to work together saying they will propose important changes to the way the euro zone operates. all right. from food to politics -- >> yeah, it really is -- >> important statement. >> is the south making a resurgence in american culture? >> yeah. we never went away. >> up next, we're going to talk to an expert in that matter. >> did they create jazz, you know, in connecticut? no. >> mika thinks south of the plains -- >> no, i have a new cookbook that's from the south. i'm very excited about it. we'll be talking about the editor of the magazine. >> that's the name. ♪ sent her back to college for her sophomore year ♪

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42 past the hour. joining us now, the editor in chief of "garden and guns." very nice to have you on the show this morning. the magazine's beautiful. >> thanks. glad to be here. >> we've got two of your key writers here. >> yeah, absolutely. the workhorses. >> and one of them's a real southerner. >> oh, no -- >> that's okay, julia. >> explain, what is it about the south? by the way, we were just talking about the ridiculous loyalty that people have to this magazine. and it's growing. what is it about the south? you can't find a musical form in american pop culture that did not start in the deep south. some of the greatest literature, some of the -- well, the greatest cooking. what is it about southern culture? >> absolutely -- >> that spawned such creativity? >> you're absolutely right. the music, the food, the

original -- everybody's farm to table is the hottest thing happening. farm to table has been happening in the south for 200 years. there's an authenticity there. people are in touch, and there are traditions that they live and they enjoy. it's about a lifestyle. >> america's become so homogenized over the past quarter century. i remember being at the university of alabama and having a remarkable time in tuscaloosa. there's such culture there, but i couldn't wait to go to law school at the university of florida because i thought it was going to be better and the music would be better and the food would be better and i went down to central florida, it was homogenized, i immediately missed the culture where you could look at homes that have been around for hundreds of years, you could go to restaurants that had that history. you see that in the deep south, and not a lot of other places. >> absolutely. what's great about the magazine is we cover high and low, the

great restaurants, somebody's just as happy to read about $5,000 to $10,000 shotgun as they are to read about a barbecue joint in the middle of nowhere because they have great food. it's appreciating a great lifestyle. >> julia, you wrote in this last issue that you went to the best restaurants in paris, but you couldn't wait to come home to the deep south. >> one of my favorite -- i think i quoted in that piece, but one of my favorite quotes is catherine ann porter was having dinner at maxine's in paris. and i'm sure plenty of expensive food and at the end of the meal, faltner looked over and said, you know, the butter beans are in at home. and catherine looked in the other direction and said

blackberries. the food he wanted after the extended tour of europe. and it was all the stuff that's farm to table. he wanted like, you know, terrapin soup. and he wanted soft shell crabs and corn off the cob. but authenticity is a word that gets thrown around a lot these days because every candidate wants to be authentic. and i think that's what dave was pointing out. people are flocking to the magazine because it captures something that is real. it's sort of -- i hate to use the word authentic anymore, but it's, you know -- >> so when you look at southern cuisine, dave, and obviously it's profiled a lot in your magazine, how has it evolved over the years? and where does health play a role in all that? >> no, no, but i mean because the south has some real issues. i'm just wondering. >> how is it so great? i went to dream land this week. >> no, but i mean -- >> and we know where you're going with obesity.

>> and we don't want to talk about it. >> what? >> but that's -- that's an economic issue, and -- >> is it? >> the country over, obesity is a national problem. we're just talking about the stuff that tastes the best. >> and the food itself certainly has been great and now it's being scrutinized at a level that we've got these chefs that are rising to new heights with cooking that, you know, we couldn't have dreamed of. in charleston alone, there are three award-winning chefs. >> the food issue said it's the best restaurant outside of new york was in charleston. >> and at husk, they only cook with ingredients from the south. they make their own ketch-up, they make their own -- >> yum. >> he goes offshore 40 miles, gets water, distills it, and makes his own salt. everything. >> what is it about the south also that seems to be drawing

bmw, mercedes, boeing, volkswagen, airbus? it seems the south is becoming a new manufacturing base. >> i think people realize it's a great place to live. i mean, certainly in the last few decades, there's been a rediscovery of the south as a great place to live. and as a manufacturing place, it's easy to draw good people. i moved from new york to charleston. i grew up in savannah. >> i love savannah. >> all right. >> all right, david. great magazine. thank you so much. up next, soccer analyst roger bennett is here. this is like from one end of the spectrum to the other. you're watching "morning joe" -- what's he doing in there? >> i have no idea. it's not good. pick up "garden and gun," it'll change your life. american by birth, southern by the grace of god.

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welcome back to "morning joe." with us now host of soccer show men in blazers richard. some of its biggest subscribing base in states outside the south. >> all of them love soccer. >> all of them do. >> because soccer has so much in common with daytime soap operas.

biggest news was wayne rooney back in headlines again thanks to his father. arrested for alleged playing players off. there they are. like father, like son. that's why wayne rooney had a hair transplant so he didn't look like him in a fat suit. rooney said his head was clear. england, 51 million strong. >> so england won this easily, right? >> you would think. they went to the balmy balkans. in the battle of 1858 england started off on cruise control. manchester united ashley young. couldn't miss. they looked like they were cruising. captain john terry, england's

favorite. your favorite, joe. very charitable event and montenegro were back in it. then wayne rooney did this. for no reason whatsoever kicked a montenegro player. then like a marvel comic book, montenegro sends the fans into delight. there were riots across the country as in any soccer loving nation. as ever they failed to impress. >> that's horrible. >> if they're not getting paid, they don't play well. not what one can say about the americans. they have pride, just no skill. they played in a super coached

looking for his first win in four games. he promised a more tack attacking flow to his team. and dempsey tied it against honduras. he slammed the ball home. 1-0. u.s. they lack movement. have the ball in the net at the end of the second half. it was disqualified for who knows what reason. got his first win. he's one of three talented germans. little english. he is offering free beer to anyone that will play for team usa. >> i love it. so how does team usa -- you're not really impressed right now? >> they have three big players. holden, torres, donovan out with injury. i believe in clemson.

quick congratulations to libya. >> excuse me? >> a team that couldn't train their leading players got embroiled in the political leader mires, they tie in a cup. as they say in libya -- >> congratulations on not scoring or winning. >> you know if it was 0-0 baseball you'd be on your seat. >> they'd know is winner eventually. >> joe, can we have a quick score prediction? >> yeah. i think liverpool wins 2-0. >> i think it should be manchester united. we will see. >> just when i think i couldn't be more confused. congratulations to libya? i got it, i'm with you roger. thank you.

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good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast. welcome back to "morning joe." take a live look at new york city. back with us on set jon meacham

and harold ford jr. really? >> yes, ma'am. >> that was is sweet try though, those boys. >> it was close for awhile. then it wasn't. >> i'm not going to do anything today. nobody needs to bring it up. >> that's a beautiful campus. a beautiful stadium. it was a fun trip. thank you. >> it was such a great time. >> really cool people. >> i mean, the football game was just -- it was the smallest part of it. actually we had an amazing weekend. like you said, the people were great down there. one guy came up to billy actually at the parade, the homecoming parade. he was wearing a vandy shirt. women would say that's so cute. isn't that sweet? >> you wear an auburn shirt they yell things at you. if you wear a vanderbilt

shirt -- >> they say things like you're good at college bowl. >> we went to a reception at the president's place before the game. willie was besieged by vanderbilt vans. i looked up at the weeping willows while everyone was around him. jon meacham we're going to be talk about theology today. true it is that a prophet is not respected in his own. they loved willie. mika ran the stairs. >> i did. >> at the stadium. >> i couldn't get in on friday or thursday. i tried every gate. >> tommy ford took care of you. >> and coach saban. i got a free pass into the stadium and ran every step.

you on the other hand -- >> coach saban like being with us or what? >> he had a game on his mind. >> that was a generous act for him. >> it was very generous. speaking of the game, vanderbilt actually did, they had a chance to make that a game. it was closer than we expected. they had a chance. a couple of miscalls. that could have been a tight game at least into the second half. >> the story of vanderbilt since i've known them, strong defense, keeps you close early on. missed a couple of field goals that would have made it tight. then can't keep up with the defense of alabama. >> that is the best vanderbilt team i've seen in 25 years. they hung tough. harold ford you saw it. they hung tough with an alabama game, that team that i think is going to be number one this

year. the talent is extraordinary. >> alabama, lsu, auburn. there's just depth on those teams. va vanderbilt has one line. >> for a two year school, you know vanderbilt. >> i knew i was sitting waiting for your moment. >> just like to see those fans. how you like it now. usa team boys. >> i think they come a long way as they work for the four year accreditation. >> something actually very disturbing in the "new york times." it just shows increasing despair among americans. as this -- well, they're not saying it's a recession. it seems worse than a recession right now. for this economic state we're in continues to drone on.

>> we seem to be barraged over the weekend of angles to look in. we have a look at census data that shows a disturbing trend for u.s. incomes. that's in today's "new york times." this shows from june 2009 the official end of the recession to june of this year, median incomes fell 6.7%. that decline was more than double the 3.2% decline that lasted from december 2007 to june 2009. those numbers only raise the pressure on the frustrating debate in washington. on "meet the press" yesterday paul ryan claimed the president's plan is a rehash of programs that have not worked in the past. >> we have a difference of opinion with the white house on how to create jobs. we don't think doubling down on stimulus policies that already proved to fail is the right way to go. we want ideas that work. that means helping small businesses grow. that means getting certainty on

our policy. regulations, taxes, debt, so that the small businesses can go. stimulus is not what businesses are saying they need to create jobs. >> ryan's comments come after president obama fired back during his address saying republicans who have a better plan should quote, prove it. >> it would just seem to me logically whether you were running a business that was in trouble or running a football team in trouble or whether you were in a row boat that was in trouble that, jon meacham, if the business or team was failing or the boat was sinking, you would do something. you would talk to the guy on the other si other side and say we need to

figure this out. millions of americans suffer so much. and the suffering continues. part of the problem with the decline in income is the fact that people have given up looking for work. because there are no jobs to be had. >> right. i was in a airport security line this weekend. a kid was in front of me with his father. and the security guard says you don't have a license yet because you don't have a job yet, of course nobody has a job. when it becomes something that's just so conversationally common, it's ever more culturally important. i think this is part of the s&p downgrade too. i think the back and forth, the s&p is not commensurate with the economic challenges now. it ain't going to get better before it gets worse. >> harold ford, i made no secret

of the fact i like paul ryan very much on small government issues. i'm very lined up with him. have known him a very long time. but even me with as much as i like paul ryan and this is not about paul ryan. this is a warning to my republican friends. when i hear paul ryan talking like that, i start to think even the guys i like are on another planet. i don't want to hear you talk about why barack obama's got it wrong. he talks about the republicans and george w. bush, i feel the same way. i feel like they're on another planet. stop talking to us about why the other guy comes up short. start talking to each other and give -- not me, not you, not you, not you, not you -- give the millions of people who are suffering, give them a reason to believe, a reason to hope that things will get better. work it out between yourselves.

and then come talk to us. >> there is no doubt to jon's point and your passionate point, there's not this disconnect. there is. a palpable frustration. i liked paul ryan. i would differ with you slightly. i think ryan provided a path for agreement. there was one point in his dialogue yesterday where he talked about business tax cuts and how there may be some agreement amongst democrats and republicans along that path. if there is around the payroll tax cut and cutting the corporate tax cut or corporate tax rate, at least you begin to see some path to some kind of compromise. the times yesterday to your point mika, interesting piece in

the economic session that predicted recessions and slowdowns with such precision that the times talked about him yesterday. they indicate we're in a recession again and we'll find ourselves in a worse recession than before. it cries out for president obama to get -- to leave his state and fixed position and republicans like paul ryan to leave their fixed position and begin to find compromise. >> i need to clarify. i don't want to make this all about paul ryan. i'm saying we could have put anybody on the screen. we could have put a mother on the screen, if she was blaming barack obama. i'd say mom, talk to him. >> paul ryan and barack obama have the ability to get something done. >> in terms of whether or not what our status is, this is, like, the last time. it's a delayed reaction. we're in a recession long after

it started. the demonstrations in new york is beginning to take shape a bit. it was interesting to see the coverage over the weekend. some people see it as a really growing movement. the demonstrations with the ones against corporate greed and social inequality that began on wall street. they're gaining momentum throughout the country. now entering their 24th day, they're drawing the attention of politicians with john lewis saying it reminded him of a civil rights movement. the rallies are not without criticism. bloomberg says it could hurt new york's economy. republican presidential candidate herman cain has said they double down on his belief that jealousy is a driving force in the demonstration. okay. he also suggested attendees

shift their focus to washington. >> fact of the matter is, they want their jobs. picket the white house. the thing this administration does not get is that the business sector is the engine of economic growth. that's key. they don't get that. so this president and administration wants to continue to try and spend our way to prosperity. part of it is jealousy. i stand by that. here's why i don't have a lot of patience with that. my parents, they never played the victim card. my parents never said we hope that the rich people lose something so we can get something. no. my dad's idea was i want to work hard enough so i can buy a cadillac, not take somebody else's. >> all right. they were also called out by that candidate for class warfare. eric cantor is echoing that as well. i think they symbolize something. i think we should take them seriously. >> the symbol is clear. there is anger growing amongst

people about a lack of jobs. the question is whether or not policies and political leaders and leadership will emerge whether or not new policies will emerge. i don't think blaming business alone is the answer. there's no doubt there is some greed and some excesses. at the end of the day, without a healthy banking system in the country, who lends money? for the federal government, this white house has to come to understand that if you place regulation on top of regulation on top of regulation of our financial institutions, it's difficult for them to lend. two, if our larger business sector does not have something around tax reform or the tax regime we faced, how can they create jobs? they're asking us to spend more money and we don't know what the regulatory frakwork will look like a year from now. >> it is the uncertainty.

you hear it from business people all the time. willie? >> i think it's heartening we see wall street moving to washington where a lot of us thought they should be putting pressure on political leaders. it's clear we're not met with politics commensurate with the problem. if you look inside those census figures, the length of time an unemployed person today has been unemployed. it's 40.5 weeks. from the end of the recession, 24 weeks. so it's just gotten worse in the couple of years since the recession technically ended. that's the frustration you're seeing on the screens. >> you can see the numbers not just about the unemployed but who are out of college and who's even going to college. it's all declining. >> it is. i want to take you back to what mayor bloomberg said. he came out in defense of the

banks. said if you crack down on the banks, that hurts the banks. that costs new york city more jobs. >> it may. i just think it's not -- i don't think that's the mayor's finest hour of political communication. i think that this is -- what's extraordinary to me about this is it's three years too late in a way. a lot of us expected there to be this kind of reaction in '08. and the triumph of economic populism carried today. i just don't think people want to be told that if you say something about big banks that seem to be doing just fine when ordinary people seem not to be, they defend the big banks in that way is politically tone deaf. and the history of economic populism in this country is such

that this is a mild expression of it. >> let me ask you this. make a historical reference, you tell me whether we're there or not 37 it seems to me if you're going to reform wall street, if you're going to reform the banking system, it's going to be possible for a democrat to do it. it seems to me you need a t.r. type character. a guy that came from the most affluent part of new york society. but yet somebody that busted up trust. a democrat could have never -- you know. could have never busted up the trust. but t.r. did bust them up. are we at a stage where too big to fail continues to get bigger through the day? and there are three or four banks that with dominate commerce. >> i think that's a good point. tths the nixon cold war point, i

think that's possible. the republican administration would be more effective politically in reforming the financial -- >> there is no t.r. out there right now. >> no. >> not even close. >> no. john mccain tried to style himself that way back in the last decade, but there's not a figure that you would reach out and say this is the guy you want in there to fix this so we can get growth going again. >> mika, we're going to have to go to break soon. you have clips to play. >> given this conversation, it's hard to think of someone like eric cantor who we like much, his comments that -- >> we like everybody, don't we? >> we like him. but i completely disagree with him on many levels especially this one. he called the occupy wall street members mobs who are pitting americans against one another. nancy pelosi fired back over the weekend. take a listen. >> i didn't hear him saying in

when the tea party was actually spitting on members of congress here at the capitol and he and colleagues were putting signs in the windows encouraging them. it's the democratic system. we don't all agree. we'd have a king if we were of one mind. we have different views. part of the democracy of our country is the expression that people give and the constitution guarantees that. >> this is one of the things about washington that just makes leaders in that town so disrespected by the american people. when the tea party goes out to protest, you have nancy pelosi supporters calling them mobsters, nazis. just a couple months ago, terrorists, hostage takers. then the left starts to get motivated and protests. now you have the right calling them mobs. is there a shortage of mirrors

in washington, d.c.? >> it's -- politics feels -- >> there is no self-awareness. >> politics feels to american theater. you can almost script it. >> bad theater. >> this side a proposal and before it's published the other side attacking it. no one discusses the two sides of it. their job is to make the other side the enemy, to attack the other side and not come together. it's killing us right now. >> mika, how can you be so unaware? how can you lack self-awareness to a degree that you call these wall street protesters quote, a mob, when you criticize the left for saying the same thing about the tea party for two and a half years? >> they are so tone deaf to not take these -- i think these protests will grow because of the tone deafness in washington. they may start out in a way that

perhaps we don't completely understand. small and maybe not completely applicable to the people it's hurting, but now they're not. they're in alaska. they're across the country. they're around the world. okay? there's a problem. and these people do need to focus their message. a lot of interesting heads assessing what they are. because we know better than not to take them seriously. >> they're worried about jobs, their homes, their children. you can't deny that reality. you may not like the way they express it, but you can't deny that reality. coming up, the denver broncos bow to pressure putting in tim tebow. we speak to nbc's mike florio. and what would john maynard keynes do today? john cassidy will be here to discuss his latest article.

but first let's check on the forecast. >> you brought the warm weather from alabama. you were down there on friday. it's been so warm and unusual. doesn't feel like october in many spots. in the 60s in boston and new york. no problem at the airports. georgia, south carolina, you're going do get the biggest batch of rain. although north florida is also getting it. tallahassee it'll roll your way shortly. if you're waking up down interstate 5, you're going to have a damp morning commute. there's the wet weather on the west coast. minneapolis down through iowa into kansas city and florida is a little damp. atlanta probably the worst weather had the country. 67 degrees, cool and rainy. if you want the best weather? right here. 84 and sunny in new york city. what's going on? where's the ice? it'll be there and skating soon enough. you're watching "morning joe" brewed bizarre bux. hey, did you ever finish last month's invoices?

sadly, no. oh. but i did pick up your dry cleaning and had your shoes shined. well, i made you a reservation at the sushi place around the corner. well, in that case, i better get back to these invoices... which i'll do right after making your favorite pancakes. you know what? i'm going to tidy up your side of the office. i can't hear you because i'm also making you a smoothie.

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i disagree with some of the republicans. i wish for the occupy wall street demonstrators a long life and ample publicity for two reasons. i think they represent the spirit of the american left. but i remember the 1960s. we had four years of demonstrations like this leading to 1968 when nixon/wallace vote.

>> 26 past the hour. joining us now staff writer for "the new yorker" john cassidy. last week he took on economics asking what would keynes do? what would he tell us now? and should we listen to that advice. welcome back to the show. nice to see you. what do you say the jobs bill? doesn't go far enough or -- >> it doesn't go far enough but better than nothing. i think job one is to get hit passed. keynes' central message was gain is motivated by demand. you're not going to hire more workers if you don't have more products. you're not going to have more salesmen. it's common sense but it's been forgotten to some extent recently. >> so on the other side of that, supply economic focuses on supply.

kind of -- cut taxes for the people that produce and help the economy that way. how did get the political realities that we have in washington today? how do you square those two? >> supplied economics in some way is keynesism. if you cut taxes that's a way of introducing more demand into the country. people have more money in their paychecks because it's in the going to the government, they'll spend it. people save some of their money. but it's another form of keynesism really. >> and by the way. underline that fact for some people that watch this show that don't realize that tax cuts can be keynesian. it's whether it's the most efficient use. >> this argument of the supply side versus keynesian is -- the

goal is to get money into the pockets of businesses you can do that by the government doing things, building roads, building bridges, keeping teachers who would otherwise do it. that's by government spending. or you can say no we'll do it the other way through the people. cut taxes then consumers go out and spend. economically it's all the same thing. >> so small government conservatives will argue and have over the past several years that keynesism hasn't works. what would keynes say to those critics? >> in the 1930s it wasn't tried much in the early '30s. people think of fdr as a keynesian. but he's worried about the budget deficit. he raised taxes and cut spending. brought on another big

recession. what brought us out? a massive surge of military spending for the start of world war ii which was a form of keynesism. putting people to work to build missiles and planes. >> so the argument again from the left and from keynes would be that from '33 to '41 they just didn't spend enough money and throughout that decade unemployment remained stubbornly high. at one point morgan went to congress saying we've tried everything. government spending, programs, we vbt turned a corner. >> they tried to some extent. there were public works and whatever the new deal that happened. but if you look back and look at the numbers actually, the size of the deficit and the stimulus program was actually pretty small. obama's deficit program introduced in 2009 was bigger than fdr's relative to the size of the economy. and i would argue that obama's was too small.

>> where would you -- keynes was once quoted asked how bad is the great recession he said we had something before it was called the dark ages and lasted 400 years. how would you rate this particular crisis in the sweep of the 20th century in terms of the american economy? >> i think undoubtly it's the worst since the 1930s. there's different recessions. most are brought on by the federal reserve raising interest rates. those usually last a year or two. the fed brings the interest rates down, things get back to normal. once or twice a century you have a speculative bust. that's what happened in the '30s. when that crashes, things are much more serious because consumers generally speaking have taken more debt. they find themselves struggling to pay their interest and they feel a lot poorer because the value of their assets has declined.

i think the only comparison answer to your question is the '30s. >> what instruments does president obama have left in his keynesian tool box at this point? he's pushed through a huge stimulus. package trying to push through another one. >> i'm not saying a keynesian package will put us back to prosperity immediately. it's a matter of preventing another tail spin. you were talking before i came on and the conversation is there is a double dip recession. it's a danger we go back to 2008-2009 again. you need a dose of keynesism to keep things from getting worse. i'm relatively optimistic that some of it will be put through. most of it is tax cuts. it's basically a republican bill but they won't vote for republican policies at the

moment. i think when push comes to shove, even the republicans will want to be seen to do something for the unemployed going into the election. so i think some of the stimulus will go through. >> all right. "the new yorker" john cassidy. thank you very much. coming up a wrap of this weekend' football games with nbc's mike florio. keep it here. we'll be back. ♪ ♪ ♪ when your chain of supply ♪ goes from here to shanghai, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ chips from here, boards from there ♪ ♪ track it all through the air, that's logistics. ♪ ♪ clearing customs like that ♪ hurry up no time flat that's logistics. ♪ ♪ all new technology ups brings to me, ♪ ♪ that's logistics. ♪

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tebow. got to throw it up. wasting time. you got to throw it. you can't take a sack. can he find one? now he throws. end zone. it is incomplete. >> tim tebow coming up just short yesterday playing quarterback for the broncos. joining us now for the "morning joe" mike florio. founder of the blog profootball talk.com. >> glad to be back. i think they have no choice but to go tebow. the fans wanted him all year. they wanted him last year. the head coach has been stubborn about it holding off on tim tebow. once you put him in, once you cross that bridge there's no

going back. they have to find out what they've got. if he's the guy, then they have him. >> he came in a league everyone said not an nfl quarterback. has he grown over the last couple years just through practicing and working out with the broncos to become an nfl quarterback? >> it's still unknown. the issue is at practice he's not the same guy as in the game. something comes over him in florida. he's not a great practice guy. the broncos have to take that leap of faith and find out what he is. >> you talk to any quarterback that playing college football that goes to pro football and they'll say the linebackers are faster than in college. we're showing clips of tebow evading four, five, six defenders. that's almost a super human feat.

remarkable. >> what helps is the fact cam newton hatz played so well. dalton from tcu is playing well in cincinnati. you have to see what tebow can do. >> let's talk about the green bay packers. they're quieting rolling along. 5-0. comeback for the pack yesterday. >> once they fell behind 14-0 it felt like the falcons were going to find a way to right the ship. they had that horrible taste in their mouth from last year. then it falls apart. 25 straight points from the packers. they continue to look like the best team in football. they got the win. they're 5-0. i don't see anyone other than the lions giving them a scare in the next month and a half. >> big story over the weekend, the passing of al davis. the raiders played and won yesterday. talk about for our viewers why he was such a big name, such an impact in this game. >> well, he goes back so far. 50 years back to the afl.

he was the commissioner of the afl. there was a point he didn't want to merge with the nfl. he thought the afl could be bigger than the nfl. when it came together he was a thorn in the side of his partners and strong willed. he wanted to do things his way. it went against the grain of what the nfl wanted to do. i can't think of two people that had more of an influence on the game today than al davis. >> he hired the first latino coach and first african-american coach in the history of the nfl. >> and he's got a female c eo. >> the buffaloes 4-1. the eagles 1-4. what's up? >> the eagles -- when you see 1-4 and look at 11 games left, they have to win eight or nine games to have a shot at the post

season. but look at their division. and maybe they could with eight wins, nine wins win the afc east this year. but the eagles have to get a win. had to get a win yesterday. of all days, that was the day. you can't go to 1-4 with the weight of expectation. what do you do with this team? does the head coach go? he's the guy going all in and the all in bet is so far not looking very good for the eagles. so there's a lot of soul searching to go on. >> how much responsibility do you put on michael vick? he had four picks yesterday. problems bigger than him, but not a good day for him yesterday. >> statistically 90 yards running. and some of those interceptions came when he was getting hit. that's the thing. the offensive line is so bad. >> vick is getting absolutely no support. >> it's just a matter of time. it just feels like a matter of time before he gets hurt.

he's reckless. he's fearless but you can only take so much abuse. >> also looks like panic time for the jets. they've lost three in a row. rex ryan didn't sound like his normal swaggering self in that press conference. >> it's all on confidence. you lose three in a row. what's there to be confident about? the thing the jets want to do differently this year is win the division. they've done well on the road. but if you get home playoff games you have a shot of getting to the super bowl. they have to get past the patriots again. maybe it'll be like last year. maybe they'll get to the post season and have a surprise for the patriots. >> let's talk about the tale of two teams in one city. the jets and the giants both down right now. willie, the way i look at it, i actually can see the jets turning things around getting to the playoffs, going deep into the playoffs. i actually think right now the giants are in much worse shape than the giants.

>> that was a bad loss yesterday. they should have won that game. but the division is so shaky. the giants are still in it. >> they were in a position to really become the top tier no question team. they're home for a month. three games at metlife stadium and a bye week. this was the perfect opportunity. 1-3 coming in playing an early game. 10:00 seattle time. they couldn't put it together. maybe it's an aberration. we'll find out. now they're going to be in the thick of things. >> before we let you go, the san francisco 49ers -- >> that was unbelievable. the buccaneers are a team 3-1 that people thought were on the rise. the 49ers had been winning close games. came back from 20 down last week. but they rolled over the tampa bay buccaneers. late in the game they lost their top receiver josh morgan with a broken ankle. that shows you when you get a big lead, maybe it's smart to get some of the key players off the field.

>> mike florio, thanks so much. the website is profootballtalk.com. see you next week. >> all right. >> light at the end of the tunnel in europe's debt crisis? simon hobbs up next. ♪ ♪ [ multiple sounds making melodic tune ] ♪ [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, every innovation, every solution, comes together for a single purpose -- to make the world a safer place. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

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welcome back to "morning joe." 46 past the hour. beautiful day in new york city. let's get a check now, though, on business before the bell with simon hobbs. live at the new york stock exchange. >> and we're going to get a pretty good looking open today in about 45 minutes. as a result of the fact that the french president had a conference yesterday and promised a solution to the debt problem in europe by the end of the month. there's a huge potential for disappointment. but for the moment we can run

with it. they propped up the belgian series overnight. one stock that will do well at the open, netflix. a huge u-turn. they just said they're not going to split the dvd service and streaming service. the cancellations have been rolling in. so a major u-turn from them. you will get the streaming and dvd service on the same site. also we've had good figures for the iphone sales. the new iphone, the iphone 4s. we were saying how disappointed people were with the launch last week because it wasn't the redesign. but at&t said it sold 200,000 of the phones within the first two hours. whether that is the death of steve jobs or the voice recognition software, it looks like it's going to be a much bigger hit than people were suggesting last week.

good day on the stock market today hopefully. >> good day on the stock market and hopefully in europe. the front of the "financial times" you've got the british prime minister declaring it's low for the eurozone. let's hope it's in a positive way. simon, thank you so much. >> coming up next willie brings us the best of saturday night live. [ male announcer ] for sore muscles use new bengay cold therapy, it's pro-cool technology releases armies of snowmen masseuse who cuddle up with your soreness and give out polar bear hugs. technology. [ male announcer ] new bengay cold therapy. the same technology used by physical therapists. go to bengay.com for a $3 coupon. the markets never stop moving. of course, neither do i. solution: td ameritrade mobile. i can enter trades. on the run. even futures and forex. complex options? done. the market shifts... i get an alert. thank you. live streaming audio. advanced charts.

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hey. good snl show on saturday night. ben stiller was hosting. foster people was the band. and they did a bit about hank williams jr. remember he had that moment on fox earlier this week. here's snl's take on that. >> mr. williams compared president obama to hitler and we just don't say that on this show. >> we imply it. >> that's right. that's right. >> so here to explain himself is hank williams jr. yeah. hey, there, fellas. i know who's the friends and who's the fox. looking good gretchen. >> hold up. if i may speak for mr. williams. >> and who are you? >> i'm chris brooks. his media representative.

i'm speaking for him from this point forward. what did you think he would say? looks like a truck stop santa claus. mr. williams would like an apology. >> hell yeah! apologize! >> you're not helping. >> of course i'm not helping. i'm crazy. >> is akin to giving a baby a gun. >> president obama hitler would just take it away. >> he wants to make this right. he wrote a song to prove it. >> let's hear it. >> i'm going to sing it now? >> yes, now. ♪ are you ready for apology ♪ well you're not going to get one ♪ ♪ because i calls 'em like i see 'em ♪ >> didn't go the way he wanted. they opened the show with chris christie. in the sketch surrounded by a group of republicans begging him to get into the race.

>> still? >> i know you want me to run, but this can't go national. my style works in one place. new jersey. if i run for president, i got to go to places like mississippi. in junds. in june. i mean, can you picture me in the mississippi heat in june taking questions from someone while i breathe like tony soprano? he's a nice man in a clean suit that wants to be president. you owe him an apology. >> sorry. >> i can't hear you. >> sorry. >> oh, hell. i can't stay mad at you meat balls. by the way -- wait, mitt ear muffs. >> you got it. >> look, i'm going to run in 2016. i just can't do it now. let's just say i got to make a

couple things go away first. but after this poor bastard loses, i'll get a head start. i'll run in four years. fat president. come on, it writes itself. >> ear muffs, mitt he says. up next what if anything did we learn today.

s. welcome back, kids. it's time to talk about what we learned today. >> i learned jon meacham quotes john maynard keynes to his children. >> and he wonders why he's disconnecting. and if that doesn't work he breaks out the trilling. >> trilling has a certain appeal over the fruit loops that keynes doesn't. >> exactly. what did you learn today? >> i learned that julia reed, a morning with her is undertaken quite lightly. >> not quite as dangerous. >> no. but it's still daylight out. >> my new magazine is "garden & g gun." i like it. >> they get most of their readers from outside the deep south. thanks to