the get money out foundation and the occupation. the show starts right now. well, good afternoon to you. my name is dylan ratigan and it is an exciting day here in new york. and for that matter, on "the d.r. show." today we begin phase two of our collective mad as hell, get money out campaign. as you probably know, we're off to a blistering start. 160,000 at this point, in less than two weeks. well, phase two involves two main components. one, gut check. if you're on that list, are you prepared to relentlilessly work to expand the digital wave to make this thing massive, which is what it will need to be. i need to do that gut check and so do every one of you. it's the only way we're going to get the money out. as you know, we delivered more than 140,000 signatures last week to washington to begin a conversation about making this a

central issue. by this morning, we were 164,000. but in order to capture the mathematics of digital wave theory, we must be doubling ourselves. each of us, partners on the list. our next goal, get to 200,000 and then enroll those 200,000 to double again to 400, so that the wave grows and doubles as each one of us in this list and in this mission is working together to expand it to a size that is formidable enough to take on the presidential conventions next summer. the second phase of phase 2, if you will, is that we work together on shaping the get money out constitutional amendment language. we think this is the best way to accomplish our singular goal of tearing down the green curtain of money that is making it impossible to give america the debate it deserves so that we can have real solutions to jobs, real solutions to energy, and real solutions to trade and on and on.

one major thing that you and i have accomplished so far is we have been able to generate enough energy to win the confidence of those around us, that they are now willing to throw resources in our direction to help us further down the road with the establishment of a get money out foundation. the most courageous in taking a risk, jimmy williams, who has left his profession to take the risk that he believes that this has enough momentum that it can actually get done. and right alongside jimmy helping to launch that foundation is leo hendry, managing partner at intermedia partners, as you may know from friday, mr. hendry has pledged to help jimmy raise the necessary seed money to jump-start this effort. and you are one of many people in this country that is concerned about this. >> well, i think everybody's concerned about a broken political system. i think it's because of your efforts, dylan, that they're going to learn shortly why it's broken. and it's money.

there are a myriad number of good ideas. there's a myriad number of women and men who are committed to fixing the system. but until you fix this money in politics issue that you've addressed so eloquently, you're never going to get the results we're after. and we saw it in health care reform, we saw it in finance reform. hundreds of millions of dollars get spent to produce bills that serve the needs of the financial industry on the one hand, the health care community on the other. nobody's spending money on behalf of the middle class. there's no voice out there that is funded closely to what big business has been able to do to turn these issues in their direction. >> why have you made the decision to put your own equity and your own reputation and invest it into this? why is this so important? why are you here? >> well, because i thought in 2008, during the campaign, which i worked in pretty heavily, for president obama and earlier for john edwards, i thought we had decided absolutely that taking

money out of the system was an imperative. we promised that we would diminish the role of the lobbyist. we promised that we'd put all of our energies towards campaign finance reform. and there's been none of that since the election. and the first two big examples that we saw when it it could have been otherwise, which was health care initially and then finance reform, dylan, the money came in in greater amounts than ever before. and you've talked probably better than anybody as well about the imperative of finding millions of jobs in this country. but the recession is declared over. big business that has declared the recession over. yet we have nearly 30 million women and men in real terms that are unemployed. so this next mountain that we have to climb. i know you use that analogy often, that it's a mountain, and we may get thrown off the mountain, but you will never create the tens of millions of jobs we need until you bring fairness into campaign finance reform. >> to that end, i want to bring somebody else into the conversation that agrees not

only with you and me and the 164,000 and counting on this petition, again, we know that the nitty-gritty, that the to do this takes the debate over the actual amendment. that leo and i can sit here and we can all petition, but if we don't have shovel, which is the actual text of an actual amendment, that we can actually put in the front of the face all of our politicians and demand, well, then we're just a loud crowd without a tool. with the tool, we are actually a weapon for positive change that we can all harness together. and to that end, i welcome nick nyhart, president and ceo of public campaign. he has been spending on his time pushing for publicly financed campaigns for years. nick, we've tried to differentiate between offering a campaign financing solution, because we believe in an open source model of problem solving. we believe there's many ways to solve these problems, but we know that we can't even begin that debate until we end the auction. what is your interpretation of the energy around the simple message of getting money out?

>> well, i think there are millions and millions of americans who appreciate what you're doing right now, dylan, in calling so much attention to this issue. we know that the vast majority of americans don't want a system that is bought and paid for by the highest bidder. and there are three ways to change the system that we have now. one is what you're pointing towards, which is to overturn the terrible, terrible supreme court decision in citizens united. you can do that through a constitutional amendment or you can get the big money five, change that majority on the supreme court. those are the two best ways to do that. we also need to make the political money toxic, as they are giving the millions and millions of dollars from wall street to the incumbent politicians, we need to call that out and put a spotlight on it, every time there are new fr fund-raisers, every time there are new finance campaign reports. and the third thing we need to do is not just get the big money out, but get ordinary people back in. if you will, we need to occupy democracy. and getting the ordinary people back in means a smaller

donor-based system like the fair election system that's up for debate in congress. >> and that's exactly the debate that somebody like myself would probably get into with you, and that i would argue any money is corrupting money. but that's the whole point of this fall debate. and that's why this is so exciting. if you look at this, leo, and look at the energy at these -- there's 1,300 occupations. it's not occupy wall street, it's occupy earth at this point. certainly by virtue of its wave. how do you interpret the collective energy, whether it is the occupation movement, whether it is the energy, for something like this petition, or the energy we saw under obama or the energy we saw under the tea party. this energy is not going anywhere. >> all of these movements start small and they try to find their definition as things evolve. what's really important, dylan, is that you and others add to their discussion, to their debate, to their protest. this issue, as nick just described, of money in politics. it wasn't on the first blush there for them to target. i think because of your efforts

last week, it's now on their lips and on their minds. the thing you've got to do immediately, where nick is such a hero in this fight, you're not going to win these big constitutional issues overnight, they're going to take time. but transparency put, as he said, a bright spotlight on this money, so that when a woman or man abuses the system by using huge amounts of money or a corporation does, to take our government in a way contrary to the best interests of the middle class, we know who it is. we know their names, we know where they live, we know what they do for a living, and we can go after them personally and say, why are you doing this? >> nick, the challenge with that be, it would seem, is the super pac. i couldn't agree more that our obligation is to out and highlight those that are the most offensive in exploiting this auction system. at the same time, the ability to hide the money in the auction because of the super pacs makes the swaps market on wall street look transparent. >> well, that's true. and we need to put a spotlight or disclose the secret money,

but for tens and tens of millions of dollars, hundreds of millions, actually, that are disclosed. the next round of reports comes out on october 15th, and we're going to be looking at those reports to find out who on the super committee, that big congressional deficit committee that's going to look at $1 trillion plus in changes to taxes and spending, we're going to look at that and see who's been taking the political money and the lobbying money and see how that affects the the decisions. so there are millions and millions of dollars being disclosed every day, and we need to spotlight that. >> nick, i asked this of leo, i've been asking this of myself and my staff and honestly the folks at the occupation and elsewhere. i would like to ask you. what, if you could just briefly tell us why you are here. what is your reason for devoting, obviously, your abundant professional resources and abilities to this particular thing. why? >> i believe in fairness. it's a value i was raised with. i want that for my kids and the society they grow up. and we're never going to have that kind of fairness.

a government that's truly of, for, and by the people as long as we have a campaign system that's of wall street, by the oil companies, and for the insurance companies. that's why i'm here. >> listen, thank you for sharing those final comments with us. i think that there's nothing more revealing -- i have not found anything more revealing than asking myself that question. i thank you, leo, for giving us the privilege of understanding your reasons for being here, and nick, the same for you, and i'm hopeful that everyone in our audience will have the opportunity to offer those same declarations in the weeks to come so we can all understand why it is that we are here, so we can better work together to get where we are going. thank you, leo. >> thank you. >> thank you, nick. >> thank you, ddylan. coming up here on "the d.r. show," arab autumn. we're not the only ones under a surge of energy for reform. we all know the middle east story. what is fueling the latest round of deadly violence in that country? and how can they harness their energy for positive change and how can we learn about their

challenges in doing just that? a live report from richard engel on the ground. plus, occupy wall street rapidly becoming occupy earth. international best-selling author naomi klein is our specialist. why she says these protests are different than ones we've seen in the past. and as we enjoy summertime weather here in new york, a new ice cream flavor for the occupy wall street crowd. we'll explain. [ male announcer ] robitussin, advil, clorox disinfecting wipes and...a digital recorder. i'm finally feeling better. good honey, you turn into such a little whiner when you're sick. no i don't. [ bawk! ] honey, i'm sick. i can't reach the remote. that sounds nothing like me. [ beep ] honey, i'm sick. i can't reach the remote. that kind of does. [ male announcer ] get low prices every day on everything to prepare for cold and flu season. we're so confident in our low prices, we back 'em with our ad match guarantee. save money. live better. walmart.

or a can of paint... you came together to vote, to share... to volunteer. and now, thanks to you, 10 communities have more to smile about. what's next? tell us on facebook. helps defends against occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas and bloating. with three strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon. you had me at "probiotic." [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health. every time a local business opens its doors or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business. it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities. that's why we extended $7.8 billion to small businesses across the country so far this year. because the more we help them, the more we help make opportunity possible.

already, deadly riots breaking out in cairo. this, the worst violence we've

seen in egypt since february's revolution. it started sunday between christian and egyptian security forces, but many fear there is a danger of escalating and it begs the fear of the difference between rejecting a status quo government and being able to navigate to a new alternative that can solve problems. and nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel is in cairo. richard, tell us what you know. >> reporter: well, there are deep concern here about the direction that the egyptian revolution is now taking. not only was this the worst incidence of violence since president mubarak was toppled eight months, it was sectarian violence. it started yesterday with a peaceful protest, where about a thousand christians were out in the streets. they were demanding justice, but

increasingly aggressive islamic radicals burned down a christian church last week. but instead of protection, instead of sympathy, when the christian protesters reached the center of the city, they were attacked by the egyptian security forces, and at least 25 people were killed. more than 300 wounded. and today, christians were back on the streets, demanding justice. they are very worried about their political future, and it does have the potential to escalate, because this is not a small population. coptic christians make up 8% of the population here, that's between 8 million and 9 million people. >> who has the power and the structure, in the way the society is operating right now, if it's evenint intervene and cool this thing off because it goes down a bloodier road? >> reporter: it would be the egyptian army, primarily. the army has been running this country and not running it very effectively, i might add, since mubarak was taken from power.

no one is really in charge on the streets. just yesterday, there were ten different demonstrations. the economy is in terrible shape. tourists are not here. so this country has been in limbo since mubarak left -- was driven from office. and one of the things that's emerging in this very chaotic transition period are a lot of the demons, frankly, that egyptians have been dealing with for decades. and one of those the the tensions between muslims and p coptic christians in this country and those are bubbling up to the surface. what happened yesterday was first these protesters were attacked by what they're calling thugs. some islamic radicals, we don't exactly know who they were. they started throwing stones and bricks at the demonstrators. and when these demonstrators arrived and saw security forces, they were already excited, some pushing and shoving started, and that escalated into the massacre that took place yesterday. so it is a very chaotic transition period.

>> richard, we appreciate your reporting and, obviously, all of us watch with empathy for everybody involved in that situation. as we turn our attention here in new york to our megapanel, msnbc contributor imogen lloyd webber, tim carney of the "washington examiner," who had an exciting last night, and sam seder, host of the majority report. and before we get to the issues here, imogen, when you look at the obvious wave of energy to tear down the dictator, but the challenge of going from the destructive moment, we will not take this anymore, what i call the pink floyd moments, and the need to transition from that rebellion into something else, give us your sense of how difficult that is, especially not in a free speech-based democracy, but in a military dictatorship like egypt is right

now. >> it's incredibly difficult. and they're losing the credibility they had a few months ago. they're talking about presidential elections now. one of the big criticisms when libya what happened, when america went in and the european leaders went in, they take that eye off the ball of what's happening and what's going on in egypt and helping them. you want to know what's going on behind the scenes in the international community here, because clearly the egyptians need some help. >> when tahir square first started bubbling up, some of the top leadership of the egyptian army were in the pentagon, because they have such a tight relationship with the united states army. so one has to wonder, what's going on? how much is the united states sort of, you know, telling the egyptian military. and how much influence do they have, frankly, because it's hard to know. >> i'm as much as a populous as the next guy, but this is why we conservatives read our edmond burke, right? these revolutions happen. and we saw the american

revolution happen, and there was this big conservative force, where they said, we needed to throw off the yoke, but we needed to make sure to preserve order. liberty and order are often in contention. >> and respect. >> and here we have this the people's revolution. everybody has an idea of what the people are. and maybe the people, for a lot of these revolutionaries, didn't include christians in egypt. >> no, i think that that's a brilliant point. and the interesting thing in watching the protests closer to home, and just in sort of my own learning, and watching how this has happened, is that the whole thing seems to be based on an open source model. which is, the way you solve problems is not with some sort of executive authority, dylan ratigan's here and he says you should do this or tim carney's here and he says you should do this or sam seder or whatever it is, it's we need more food, we need more health, we need more whatever. and then a clear set of principles and goals. and if you don't adopt in a post-revolutionary state a very clear set of trust and respect

among all the people, which is obviously not in existence there, and clear principles and goals, the revolution quickly, i imogen, would seem to be for nougt. >> exactly that. egypt is the big three as far as american interests go in that region. it's all about iran, saudi arabia and egypt. what is happening there, it's absolutely critical to our stability in the world. >> and i think the tension is, is this really a revolution or is it simple that part of a regime is gone? i mean, the military has been an institution there for a long time. that hasn't changed. and so, you know, what's probably going on some level, and to be honest with you, i don't know, but i would imagine within the concept of the military themselves, they have yet to figure out exactly who they want to be in charge. >> and they're probably just as threatened by the open source model of occupation crowd as mubarak was, wouldn't you think? >> yeah. i also think that sort of the bigger question, sort of the wilsonian george bush talk of

democracy and freedom and that we need to sort of, we need to look at that going around the whole world. we have to wonder what -- is this the democratic will of the majority of the people in egypt? or is this some thugs and some people conducting a coup? we have this idea where we like to think that what works here will work everywhere. oh, well, you're racist if you think they can't handle democracy. no, we have a certain tradition, they have a certain tradition. >> the other interesting thing you bring up from a conservative standpoint is democracy works up to the point where you breach respect and trust of the rights and boundaries of another human being. so you can't democratically decide that the muslims are going to kill all the christians, for instance. you can't democratically decide that all the old people are going to take all the young people's job. and so there's an expectation, i think, of respect and mutual respect that we've talked about being limited in our political dialogue, that really can get carried away in these situations. >> absolutely. it is absolutely terrifying to

watch. i mean, we don't know. and obviously the impact on israel and so forth, it was independent on turkey and egypt. and it's losing its support. it's lost its supporters in the region. >> which makes it interesting, and the opportunity is for all of us, as we go through resolving the reforms that our country's going to go through over the next ten years. i don't know exactly what they're going to be or when they're going to happen, but whether we can do that in a way that manifests to the mutual respect and trust for each other that is going to be required, lest we find ourselves in our own version of some misery like that. the panel stays. as the occupation goes global, our specialist, naomi klein, who addressed the occupy wall street protesters last week, she joins us to tell us what she told them.

the best approach to food is to keep it whole for better nutrition. that's what they do with great grains cereal. they steam and bake the actual whole grain while the other guy's flake is more processed. mmm. great grains. the whole whole grain cereal. see? he's taking his vitamins. new one a day vitacraves plus omega-3 dha is a complete multivitamin for adults. plus an excellent source of omega-3 dha in a great tasting gummy. one a day, gummies for grown-ups.

well, the occupy movement showing no signs of stopping. those live aerials from the boston occupation right now, where hundreds of students have hit the streets. these protests spreading like wildfire across our country, and even around the world. the website meetup.com now tracking over 1,300 protests with anti-greed demonstrations, pro-fairness, anti-greed is the basic message in ireland, england, south africa, and the rate of growth such that there were just 800 occupations two days ago. 1,300 as of right now. and with us, our specialist for the day, naomi klein, award-winning journalist, syndicated columnist for "the nation" and "the guardian," she addressed the occupy wall street crowd on thursday and joins us now. it's a pleasure to see you. what'd you tell them?

>> well, i told them that i loved them, actually. that's how i started my speech, because you know, there's a human microphone, and whatever you say to them, they say back to you, there were about a thousand people there, i said i love you, and about a thousand people said they loved me. >> that's a good night. >> but i did engigenuinely mean love what is happening there. and one of the things i said to them, the pundits on tv, being a pundit on tv at the moment, are saying, why are you protesting, and the rest of the world is saying, what took you so long? join the club. that's really been the question. how much will americans take? and there's tremendous excitement and gratification about the fact that this protest movement, which, as they say, it is globalizing, but it's already been global. i mean, these students, these young people in new york are drawing inspiration from egypt, they're drawing inspiration from spain, they're drawing inspiration from chile, where there's been huge student demonstrations, calling for a

free tuition. and end privization of education, making a really radical demand. also, beyond just telling them i thought they were doing great, i shared a little bit of what i've learned from being part of movements that have tried to take on de-regulated corporate power before, and i was really involved in the protests that were called the anti-globalization movement at the end of the '90s -- >> i recall. >> yeah. >> i think somebody threw a chair at my head at one point. i was like, i'm with you people, but shouldn't be throwing things at me. sometimes they get the wrong mark, but it's okay. >> you know, they weren't protests against globalization. they were protests against deregulation, against privatization. really, against the system that crashed the global economy. and i think that movement made a lot of mistakes. and because we made mistakes, this system has become all the more destructive over the decade

that followed. so i shared with them some of the things that i thought that we did wrong and the mistakes i hope that they don't repeat. one of the things they're doing right is committing themselves to nonviolence. and that is a different -- the they're denying the media those images that are so addictive of the broken windows and the street fights and that's tremendously wise for a largely young group. >> the awareness is stunning. go ahead, tim. you spent the night there. tim carney spent the night at the occupation last night and you look fantastic. >> you guys have amazing makeup artists. and i watched this general assembly with this laborious process of the human mic. and there was this moment where he's shouting, we meet every day -- we meet every day -- except tuesday and thursday -- except tuesday and thursday the -- and i'm thinking, why are they putting up with this? and i'm thinking, maybe this is part of the point. what i saw them talking about was not war or indebtedness or

bank bailouts as much as it was representation and disenfranchisement and democracy. this is sort of my working theory now. is that they're more about sort of the process and direct democracy and voice than they are about specific grievances or specific policies, but sort of the broader grievance that they don't have a direct way to handle it. this is my explanation as to why they can kind of seem like they're all over the place, but have a focus. do you think i'm getting this right? >> it's absolutely true that the process has been really inspiring for people. i mean, one of the things -- >> blew my mind. sorry, but it blew my mind. it's amazing. >> and people are loving the feeling of connection. and it's a little bittersweet, because the reason they're using this human microphone and this incredibly laborious process is because they're not allowed amplification. so they're adapting and they've turned this problem into something really quite amazing. but you know, at the same time, we're bombarded with corporate messages all the time. nobody asked our permission if

we want to see the ads in time square, but yet you're to the allowed to amplify your voice in a public place -- >> and you notice the erin burnett ad that's right behind the park. >> yeah, so -- but i do think it is about democracy, and it is about direct democracy, but that isn't a nonissue. they are responding to the fact that they see the political system being bought and paid for, being broken. >> i think that's tim's point. you're not saying it's a nonissue, i think we're all marveling at the awareness that is being shown to all of us as we visit, as we say, what are these people doing here? and then you talk to each one, and each one has a different set of grievances, but each one has the single grievance, which is that this country has become unfair and i won't take it anymore. and we are going to define a process to solve problems, however laborious it may be. anyway, go ahead, imogen. >> i come from a country, i come from the uk, where we saw riots recently, for many reasons. one of the reasons was inequality. and you're saying at the moment

it very much is nonviolent with the occupy wall street protests, but can you see it turning? because i think people are getting slightly uneasy about what's going on down there. >> you know, it can always happen, but i've been amazed by despite incredible provocations from the police, that this is such a solid principle. there can also be provocateurs. i think that that's -- that those moments of rage erupting like we saw in the uk recently are more likely to happen if there aren't outlets like this, right? what's amazing about the space down there, it is like a magnet. and as you approach it, we've probably all been there, but the thing that's most amazing to me is the sound as you approach it. >> like walking into a football game. >> right. the roar of voices, drums. it's just an amazing force of nature at the moment. and that is an outlet. that's an outlet for people. >> and it's a positive harness. >> it's positive, exactly. and that's what i find so amazing about this cultural need to haze this movement, you know,

just put -- here we have this the group of young people, and to me, what i find most hopeful is, what i'm worried most about the obama generation and the young people who got involved in politics in 2008, got their hopes raised sky high by the soaring rhetoric of the obama campaign, is that when they saw that that change didn't happen, that the wars didn't end, that climate change is hurtling forward, that they would go home. >> the government would be sold at auction. >> that they would become cynical, apathetic, and disengage politically. not that they would vote republican, but that they would just give up. and what we're seeing here is they're saying, okay, well, that didn't work very well. why didn't it work? okay, because of all the reasons joan's been talking about. well, then, let's go to the source of the problem. and that's so hopeful, so why would we treat that with suspicion, and in fact, i think it's the opposite. i think that because they've created this open space, this outlet, this opportunity to both be angry and be hopeful, it's much less likely that we'll see those sorts of violent

outbursts. >> part of the problem in the uk is that the original problem was policed badly and it sparked the riot. >> i think beyond that, from my experience with it, and we'll wrap this up, is that even if it's policed wrong, that the intensity of the intention of the people that are there is so high, collectively, because they have been through this. they were alienated in the tea party, they were alienated by barack obama. they've been alienated by the democratic party. they've been alienated by the republican party. and they know that the only way this will happen is if we take any and all comers to work together to restore fairness. and what stunned me was, i was there the night after the 700 arrests on the brooklyn bridge, and the energy that night at the general assembly that tim was just talking about was loving. and warm and more courageous and more resolute. and i believe that if that pattern persists and if the rest of us are able to make the point

that this is not one group of people, this is not radicals, this is not lefties, this is not righties, this is not hippies, this is not crazies, this is everybody. nurses, teachers, everybody believes in fairness. and i think that the greatest thing for the occupation is actually its rapid growth, because then it becomes less relevant who started it or who was into it or who's leading it, because the bigger it gets, it becomes something inclusive to the single principle of fairness, as opposed to anybody's particular agenda. i appreciate your coming to talk to us today. i appreciate you guys being here. maybe i'll join you with a sleeping bag one night, carney. i don't know if i have it in me. sam didn't get a question in, but we'll get you two questions next time. >> i appreciate it. >> we'll address it at the general assembly. go ahead, naomi. >> i was just saying, he looked pretty. >> that's why we have him. >> sam seder, tim carney, i'm gene lloyd webber, naomi klein, thanks for joining us.

now 166,000 have signed on to our get money out campaign. remember, this only works if we work together to grow the digital wave. each one of us have to maintain our own resolute, our own vigilance, our own resolution by telling at least one other person that the petition exists and asking them and giving them the choice. don't tell them to sign it, tell them it exists and give them the opportunity to choose to sign it. phase two includes our debate on the draft of the amendment text to separate business and state once and for all. right now that is on getmoneyout.com as well as with suggested revisions by renowned constitutional scholar lawrence lessig. we'll be continuing to post revisions to this draft throughout the fall. this is an open process and we will debate that language in public on this show, on the web, and, of course, on our thursday night fights for weeks, if not

months, to come. the key is our singularity of principle and our agreement that we will align around that principle. do not forget that if you are invested in this process now, it is gut check time, because it is only for us to inform others that we believe this is important and why, so that they are given the privilege and the respect of being able to choose for themselves as to whether or not they want to join us to get money out. straight ahead here, we ask the twitterverse if occupy wall street had its own ben & jerry's ice cream flavor, what would it be called? the story behind the question and our favorite responses with some ice cream flavors right after this. with diabetes, it's tough to keep life balanced.

i don't always have time to eat like i should. that's why i like glucerna shakes. they have slowly digestible carbs to help minimize blood sugar spikes, which can help lower a1c. [ male announcer ] glucerna. helping people with diabetes find balance. it's pro-cool technology releases armies of snowmen masseuse who cuddle up with your soreness

and give out polar bear hugs. technology. [ male announcer ] new bengay cold therapy. the same technology used by physical therapists. go to bengay.com for a $3 coupon. everything you need to stretch out on long trips. residence inn. ♪ everything you need to stay balanced on long trips. residence inn. but is she eating sugar this week? maybe she wants the all natural, zero calorie stuff. but if you're wrong, you're insinuating she's fat. save yourself. it's only natural. her morning begins with arthritis pain. that's a coffee and two pills.

the afternoon tour begins with more pain and more pills. the evening guests arrive. back to sore knees. back to more pills. the day is done but hang on... her doctor recommended aleve. just 2 pills can keep arthritis pain away all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lara who chose 2 aleve and fewer pills for a day free of pain. and get the all day pain relief of aleve in liquid gels. with professional-grade research. and some of the most powerful, yet easy to use trading tools on the planet. it's investing with intelligence and cold hard conviction. e-trade. investing unleashed. well, as we all know by now, support pouring in from a wide variety of sources for the occupation movement. labor unions, vats, and now very well-known corporations are joining the fight. ben & jerry's, for instance, the vermont ice cream maker, known,

o obviously, for their own activism announced today that it's backing the protesters. a post on the company's website says the issues raised are of fundamental importance to the country, specifically the inequality that exists and the huge debt students have to take on to get an education. my favorite, prosecute ben s& jerry's crowd, their offensed at corporation's abilities to raise hundreds of resources while stockpiling trillions rather than hiring people. sounds like they might want to get money out. we at "the d.r. show" took to the world wide web and asked you what ben askand jerries should e a new ice cream flavor. one is occu-pie. another one, choccupy.

and banker's dozen. we did a completely unscientific poll, and your favorite there, middle class mojo. keep the tasty ideas coming and keep the dialogue open. i truly appreciate it and it's the only way we're going to solve anything. next, powering to future here. a man whose a nobel prize winner and author tells us what living in a post-fossil fuel world will wail look like. the book may be fiction today, but he says it will be reality for sure in the years ahead. you've seen the signs. that's why having the right real estate agent is more important than ever. at remax.com, you can find experts in short sales or bank-owned properties or commercial real estate, agents who can help speed up the process, no matter how intricate. and that's good news, whether you're trying to sell or hoping to buy. because the only sign you really want to see is "sold." nobody sells more real estate than re/max.

visit remax.com today. with advanced power, the verizon 4g lte network makes your business run faster: smartphones, laptops, tablets, mobile hotspots. but not all 4g is created equal. among the major carriers, only verizon's 4g network is 100% lte, the gold standard of wireless technology. and while other carriers may have limited lte coverage, verizon is the largest lte network in america and ever-growing. with verizon 4g lte, you can invent new ways to upgrade your business using real-time group meetings from remote locations, video conferencing, mobile credit-card payments, lightning-fast downloads, and access to thousands of business apps. plus, verizon has the largest selection of 4g lte devices and the most 4g lte coverage for your business. all on america's fastest, most reliable 4g network. no wonder more businesses choose verizon wireless than any other wireless carrier.

verizon. i've tried it. but nothing's helped me beat my back pain. then i tried this. it's salonpas. this is the relief i've been looking for. salonpas has 2 powerful pain fighting ingredients that work for up to 12 hours. and my pharmacist told me it's the only otc pain patch approved for sale using the same rigorous clinical testing that's required for prescription pain medications. proven. powerful. safe. salonpas.

fresher less processed foods introducing freshpet recipes so fresh the only preservative we use is the fridge freshpet fresh food for fido try smart balance buttery spread. it's heart-healthier than butter. with omega-3s. 64% less saturated fat. and clinically proven to help support healthy cholesterol.

♪ put a little love in your heart ♪ well, as you may remember on our steel on wheels tour earlier this year, we all discovered energy independence has to happen in our time if we're going to survive. but because of the stranglehold on washington, d.c. and the nature of our auction-based government, there is absolutely no agreement on how to get there. in fact, right now we're only 34% in power generation, proof that we must alter our relationship with energy and how we both create it and consume it. we know this. today we're reopening our discussion of energy independence with nobel prize winning physicist robert laughlin who is the author of a new book, "powering our future: how we will eventually solve the energy crisis and fuel the civilization of tomorrow." and in keeping with your

subtitle, professor, how will we? >> well, certain things will happen and i think, as i put in the book, some of those things will happen regardless of what occurs in government. >> for instance? >> well, one of the things -- let's ask a question. will people still drive cars? most people say yes. and then you ask, will they still fly on airplanes? and after some thought, people say yes to that as well. then you ask, what powers the airplanes? turns out that ordinary jet fuel has the most energy density, energy per cubic meter allowed by the laws of physics. and that tells you that if there is an airline industry in those days, then you must make the fuel that goes in the airplanes, even after the petroleum runs out. so one thing is that the carbon-free future that people imagine, i'm reasonably sure is

a fantasy and will never happen. >> what of those who would argue that our capacity to capture radiant heat from the sun, tidal energy from the oceans, wind energy from the surface of the earth, hydroenergy from the surface of the earth, geothermal energy from beneath the surface of the earth, that a quilt, effectively, from those types of sources could be achievable, that could then drive both power generation and transportation and displace the carbon fuel conce concept? >> oh, it's achievable right now. you just do the numbers. however, there's this little problem that every single one of us is always looking for the cheapest gas. and that may sound like a triviality, but that practice enforces cutthroat pricing competition. and so the energy business is famous for this. we all need energy, desperately.

but the reason it's cheap is because these guys are fighting each other, mercilessly. so i think it's very unlikely that non-cheap energy will ever supplant the cheapest kind, no matter how hard governments try to achieve that. >> to that end, though, your definition of cheap would seem to be up for debate as the cost of war and the cost of the environment is not reflected in the price at the pump, because of the unholy alliance between the energy companies and our government. were we to separate business and state, could we not then force the energy companies to reflect the actual cost of a gallon of gasoline, which is in the $10 to $15 a gallon level, such that we have an actual price integrity in the cost of the fossil fuels that are theoretical cheap, because the cost of that energy is not paid by the consumer, which then could catalyze the

kind of change we're discussing? >> maybe, but that's kind of hard to imagine, just because of people's behavior. do you remember the 1970s' oil crisis? >> i do. >> i'm old enough to remember that. remember what we learned then was that the price of fuel and other kinds of energy use is very, very inelastic. the true price could be very high. but the reason it's as cheap as it is because there's lots of supply. now, so, i don't, myself, know what the true price is. if you were to let it float, and so it's very hard for me to sustain arguments about how high the price should be. >> fair enough, but you can still take an inventory of what you do know, which is what we're spending on military, what we're spending on environment, and coming up with at least a baseline and theorize that were it to get that expensive, it would incentivize low-cost

alternatives, no? >> no, i understand the argument fully. one of the reasons i placed this, my premise of this book so far in the future is that i wanted to de-politicize the discussion. so we can talk very scientifically and cogently about what will happen, even though it's rather difficult to talk about what you should do now. what will happen is that the fossil fuels will end. and they will end on a very short amount of time, measured by the time scales of the earth. and that could be a century or two, make it five centuries if you prefer, okay? >> yep. >> then you can look backwards and ask, what happened? and that's what the book is all about. it's, i think there are some things to come that are going to play out in the next two centuries, or maybe more, but two centuries that make life in the end very similar to the way it is now, except that the entire supply structure is turned upside down. >> cool.

well, listen, i am thrilled about reading this and i love the way you've established the narrative and set your mark at 200 years out. thank you so much, robert laughlin, "powering the future," check it out. coming up on "hardball," the man behind the controversy, chris matthews one on one with a baptist minister who called mormonism a cult. but next here, keli goff with a daily rant on the death of an american visionary and she's not talking about steve jobs. plan. ♪ with the lowest national plan premium... ♪ ...and copays as low as one dollar... ♪ ...saving on medicare prescriptions is easy. ♪ so you're free to focus on the things that really matter. call humana at 1-800-808-4003. or go to walmart.com for details.

♪ that's good morning, veggie style. hmmm [ male announcer ] for half the calories -- plus veggie nutrition. could've had a v8. see? he's taking his vitamins. new one a day vitacraves plus omega-3 dha is a complete multivitamin for adults. plus an excellent source of omega-3 dha in a great tasting gummy. one a day, gummies for grown-ups. you wouldn't want your in adoctor doing your job. so why are you doing his? only your doctor can determine if your persistent heartburn is actually something more serious... like acid reflux disease. over time, stomach acid can damage the lining of your esophagus. for many, prescription nexium not only provides 24-hour heartburn relief,

but can also help heal acid related erosions in the lining of your esophagus. talk to your doctor about the risk for osteoporosis-related bone fractures and low magnesium levels with long-term use of nexium. possible side effects include headache, diarrhea and abdominal pain. other serious stomach conditions may still exist. let your doctor do his job, and you do yours. ask if nexium is right for you. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help.

all right. it is monday, which means it's time for the loop21.com's keli goff's rant. to that end, the floor is yours.

>> last week america lost a man who changed the world. without him and his visionary leadership, it's arguable that hi and millions of people just like me wouldn't be able to do our jobs as well as so many of the small things in life we now take for granted. if you assumeple founder, you'd be wrong. i'm actually referring to reverend fred shuttlesworth. if you just asked yourself fred who, you're not alone. though he and jobs passed away on the same day and both men are credited with spending much of their lives revolutionizing all of ours, you would hardly know it. a google search for steve jobs dies yielded 300 results, while a search for fred shuttlesworth died yielded just 144,000. next to reverend martin luther king jr., shuttlesworth was one of the most important figures of the southern rights movement, cofounding the southern christian leadership conference. shuttlesworth faced two attempts

on his life, once when he was severely beaten by clan members while attempting to integrate the school he wished for his children to attend, another when his home was bombed on christmas day. he was hospitalized for other days for injuries sustained in his campaign for equality, and yet he never wavered from his devotion to nonviolence or his commitment to the cause. in a nutshell, shuttlesworth was an american courahero who had m courage in his pinkie finger than most of us will have in a lifetime. as someone who owns three macs and two ipods, i admit that steve jobs definitely made my life better, but fred shuttlesworth made my life possible. without him, i wouldn't be sitting here today, because i would not have grown up in the southern neighborhood i come from and would not have enjoyed the educational opportunities i did or secure the job opportunities i have. shuttlesworth not only changed my life, he changed our world. without him efforts, there would be no black executives and no president barack obama. what's particularly disturbing is that the lack of coverage of

shuttleworth's death is part of a larger trend. according to a study by the southern poverty law center, american student knowledge of the civil rights movement has deteriorated to a startling degree, which is why it's so incredibly important that we in the media get the story right when we have the opportunity to cover the lives of shuttlesworth and other heroes like him. here's hoping that next time when faced with a choice, we will. >> so the only pushback that i will give you on that, and it's not in any way a -- to look at shuttlesworth and jobs as their lives, obviously, totally different contributions and any one's life contribution is never -- can't be compared, i don't think, to another. they are their own events. but there is an aspect of bad luck in these things. in other words, there are lots of people -- somebody died recently, and if you die on the wrong day of somebody else more famous than you dies, you don't get covered. and it really is as simple as that. it's not