campaign. a little briefing on that a little bit later, but we begin with a kissing cousin of that campaign, if that makes you feel a little icky, it should, the passage of three new trade bills aimed at getting, yes, more u.s. exports into south korea, panama, and colombia. what could be better than that? we'd be better off having a trade deal with california. there are more buyers for american products in california than there are with all three of those countries combined, and the only apparent benefit is the employment of north korean slaves and the ability to use bank secrecy laws in panama. doesn't sound like job creation to me. and while the rhetoric of free trade sells well, it just never seems to work out as promised, because it's not really free. it's kind of rigged, you know. the u.s. job gains tend to turn into the opposite, u.s. job losses. in fact, they had to pass a law to subsidize lost jobs on a bill that they said was going to create them. no joke! not to mention, obviously, the data from nafta, potentially wonderful ideas in global trade being corrupted by special

interests that rig the system. and the auction that buys washington politics has convinced the pro-wrestlers down there that, for some reason, this is good politics, even if it's terrible policy to accept rigging money from auctioneers to screw up the system. i don't know. look at this. right now in washington, d.c., the south korean president is about to address a rare joint meeting of congress, basically thanking washington for greenlighting the ability to employ north korean slaves. you're welcome, korea. he's also, get this, the guest of horn tonight at a long-planned white house state dinner. let me emphasize, a long-planned white house state dinner, where, coincidentally, we pass the trade deal with korea, and who says that the people in washington only care about political theater? why do you think after being

stalled for five years, the trade agreements were pushed through last night, just in time for the state dinner? ah, but these people are policy people, i'm sure. david stockman, who was ronald reagan's budget chief, is with us. understands the benefits that exist in real trade agreements, where you can actually create reciprocal movement of product, reciprocal movement of capital and investment. we know that there's merit in the trade agreement, david. i just don't understand how we ended up with this version. >> well, i think it's a good yes. this is a side show. i mean, these three economies account for maybe 1% of world gdp. so i think we ought to be focusing on the real issue that came up again this morning when the trade figures came out for the month, reminding us we have a $46 billion trade deficit, last month alone. we're running $550 billion for the year. this will be our 36th out of the last 40 years that we've had a huge trade deficit, something

like $8 trillion in total, if you can imagine that. so the problem is not doing more with panama, which is irrelevant, or even trying to pacify the koreans more. what we have to do is get to the fundamentals, and the fundamentals are that we're consuming way too much and that we're putting too much of a tax burden on our labor and making it even more noncompetitive than it is already. so we have everything upside down. we have interest rates at zero, we're punishing savers, we're rewarding consumers, we're importing everything, and we're undermining the basis of our economy. and these trade deficits don't -- or these trade deals, you know, whatever they were worth in some kind of free trade sense don't address the fundamentals in any way at all. >> at the end of the day, you and i have talked about this going back to last summer, and we've learned a lot over the course of the past year. at the end of the day, we end up at the ability for money to

influence policy that ends up with upsidedown outcomes like that. are we oversimplifying it when we look at this and say, how could we possibly -- with policies that are as upside down and inside out as you just described, punishing savers on and on and on, and the causality that auction? >> well, the point, i think we know by now, is that wall street dominates the fed. the fed is basically running a policy to reward speculation, to give free money to the carry trade, and basically trash the dollar. now, when we trash the dollar, we're inviting the koreans and the chinese and the taiwanese and the rest to become trash collectors and go out and intervene in the markets and prop up their currencies, peg their currencyies. and when they do that, it only further compounds the job problem that we have here. >> yeah.

>> so those are the issues that i think need to be addressed. >> you got a phone ringing there, dave? >> yeah, i think so. >> do you want to get that? >> yes. >> you can do that. everybody has one. >> yeah. go right ahead. >> it's like being at the movies. what are we going to do. >> the thing that everybody wants is jobs. we know obama's talking jobs. we're now seeing the republicans out with some jobs rhetoric today from, i think, senator rand paul. give me your perspective on the levers. if i was to walking into a meeting with you and proclaim with all of my zest and passion, david, i want to bring jobs back to america, where do i begin? what would you tell me? >> well, i got a four-point program, now that you ask. number one, we need the great tax swap. we need to basically stop taxing jobs and start taxing consumption. in other words, we have a trillion dollars of burden on

payrolls, the payroll tax, when we're the highest cost laborer in the world, obviously, and that tax only makes it worse. so i would, basically, say, we need a structural tax reform, big-time, phase out quickly the tax on payrolls, replace it with a tax on consumption, getting -- give american employers a better opportunity to hire, and require consumers to carry the tax burdens. the second thing is -- >> let's stop there for one second. because there's a philosophical point in addition to the mechanical points, if you consider yourself to be a capitalist in the true sense, which is, why would we -- if a tax is a punishment, basically, it's something you want to deter, why would you tax somebody for working hard and making money when you want to encourage people to work hard and create value for each other. and instead, we give a tax break to consumption and we punish production, which is insane. go ahead. >> well, that's exactly right. if you want more of something,

tax it less, obviously. and if you want less, tax more. so we have it upsidedown and no one is even addressing that. we have this absurd debate in washington about whether to raise revenue and the republicans saying no tax, and, you know, those positions are absurd. we ought to be looking at how do we pay the bills of government in a way that's least disruptive to our economy, that will help us heal and rebuild this tremendously broken system we have, and it starts with addressing exactly that issue. >> number two. >> secondly, we actually need to have the fed start thinking about main street, not wall street. if we did -- >> how would we know they were doing that? how would we see that? >> well, i think one way to do that is to get them out of the business of micromanaging the economy. they are in the market, twisting the yield curve, intervening,

buying, selling. trying to run 12 people, a $15 trillion economy by the hour, by the week, by the monthly meeting. you can't do it. i would say that we're at the point where this is so broken, where the fed has destroyed so completely the capital markets. interest rates don't mean anything. they're simply manipulated numbers by the fed, that we ought to say, let's get rid of the open market committee. put those 12 people in retirement. let the fed run a discount window for emergency liquidity, if it's needed. let people, banks, pay a penalty rate if they get in trouble, because they've borrowed short and loaned long, but get out of the daily business of trying to micromanage, massage, and manipulate this market. >> would you advocate a floating interest rate as an alternative? a market rate of some kind? >> yeah. there's something called mobilize the discount rate. you would like this. it was something known 40 or 50 years ago and it's been lost. put the discount rate a couple

of points above the market. therefore, there's a penalty if you need emergency funding, but it's there. that, then, becomes an incentive for people to run their balance sheet in a prudent way, not get themselves levered as far as they were, but more importantly, not get themselves so dependent on overnight, wholesale funding. you know, repo funding. the kind of thing that caused the crisis here in 2008, and is frankly causing the banking crisis in europe today. so if we did that, if we basically got the fed out of the way, interest rates would go up, frankly, but then we would stop buying so much on credit from abroad, and the third thing i would say is we've got to get our deficit fixed and fixed soon. because it is a sim bee attic relationship.

we buy stuff from the koreans and the rest of the asian and then we turn around and borrow the money from them through the massive purchases of our securities. and the whole system is broken. so that's the heart of it. that's what we need to begin to address. >> that is one of the best assertions that i have heard. maybe it's because i agree with it. you never know. you've got your own biases and you bring them to the table, but at the very least, you're talking about trying to impact broad capital flows and then release them into an environment as opposed to micromanaging the ticktock of capital, which seems to be the only rational way to approach a multi-trillion-dollar market, david. thank you so much for continuing this dialogue with us and teaching me and my viewers a little bit more than we might have known on a given day. thank you. david stockman, a former o&b director at reagan, for ronald reagan. coming up here on "the d.r. show," the president's job plan, we know that, doa.

this afternoon, the gop out with their jobs plan. any chance it addresses tax code, trade agreements, and the federal reserve? we'll talk it over with the megapanel. nobody hold their breath, by the way. plus, coming together to create change. why how we do things matters more than what we are doing. and later -- >> you have no style or sense of fashion. >> well, um, i think that depends on what your -- >> no, no. that wasn't a question. >> how to deal with a horrible boss. it turns out the recession's bringing out the mean in managers. ♪ everybody hurts sometimes rx plan gives you the lowest plan premium in the country... so you can focus on what really matters. call humana at 1-800-808-4003.

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after blocking president obama's so-called jobs plan, i mean, it's a jobs plan, it just doesn't have a lot of jobs in it, senate republicans now with their own version. of course, we're all wondering whether david stockman's suggestions of switching the stock codes and the federal reserve and the trade agreements is in there, and whether it would get us anywhere closer to the 31 million jobs that our nation actually needs to resurrect itself. well, of course, the answer is not close enough. the general estimates do peg the plan at creating more than 5 million jobs, and i do have to give them credit for moving in the right direction, lest i be too obnoxious. it's more than the president's plan, but all the same, it's 26 million short of solving the jobs problem, and quite apparently, at this point, there's not enough detail to know beyond the rhetoric how they're going to pull this off. our thursday megapanel, karen, susan, and jimmy.

are we right? let me try a glass half full take on this, karen. at least the jobs debate is moving towards plans that claim to create more jobs. >> huh. let's see. 20 days left in the legislative session and finally, finally -- and by the way, what was the house doing? voting to, you know, pass more measures that basically make women less safe and less able to control their own body -- >> you're talking about the abortion stuff they're carrying on about today? it's unbelievable. >> it's outrageous. >> unbelievable. >> again, they came in january saying jobs, jobs, jobs. okay, 20 days to go, they introduce something, okay, let's see what they can do. >> it's really not much different than when the president waited until two days before the debt ceiling to weigh in on it. okay, it wasn't two days, maybe seven. this is typical washington go around. >> this brings us to the data set of the day, an all-time high for people who believe this

country is on the wrong track, we're at 74%. the transparency of the theater, whether it's the trade dinner tonight with south korea, doesn't do the anything. whether it's the silliness of the jobs plan, whether it was the silliness of the debt debate. you tell me all the time, washington, d.c., reacts, they do not act. how are they going to react to this? >> to what? >> to the 74% of the country -- >> well, they're not! >> but how do you say washington reacts -- >> first of all, they're going to go home and do their own polling. if they're at 74 disapproval rate, they're in big trouble. >> and they're going to keep trying to point -- i'm sorry. they're going to keep trying to point fingers at each other, right? if the congress was actually paying attention, and i'm sorry, susan, you know i love you, but your fellows ran on jobs, jobs, jobs. obama didn't run on the debt ceiling, that's one of the differences i would point out, point being, they're going to keep pointing fingers at each other. they're ignoring what's

happening with the occupy wall street movement, which is a movement that's been simmering for years now, in terms of people's level of anger. they're ignoring the polls, they're ignoring what the market has said. the reason the markets don't have confidence is because those yahoos can't agree on anything. >> but again, it goes back -- you tell my they listen, yet i've never seen a more deaf group of people in my life. >> when a drunk is driving a car and the they barely miss the child on the sidewalk, they're going to keep driving the car. and the reason they are is because they didn't hit the kid. you run over a small child and you hit rock bottom and then you're going to sober up. congress is drunk on power. they can't even figure out how to drive their own car. and meanwhile, everybody in america can't afford one. so i need to understand why it is that everybody runs around saying, the democrats are terrible for only wanting to create 1.9 million jobs, and the

republicans are terrible for only wanting to create 5 million jobs, when america needs 30 million jobs! you've got to wonder why when i talk to my brother down in south carolina, and he says to me, why will you even bringing up politics, they're idiots, they don't get it. and i have to think to myself, you're right, day don't. my brother gets it, but washington doesn't get it. >> but the politicians out there also don't think they're going to come up with the problems. they're just going to try and deflect as long as they can. by the good grace of job -- people are going -- >> how long are they going to the try to deflect it? they're going to bring down a president and then what are they going to do? >> they're going to keep deflecting it. every two years, it's not the other guy. that's what we've been seeing in the last several cycles. republicans didn't get elected in 2010 -- >> hold on now, i want to switch subjects, because i think i've solved this problem. >> thank god somebody has. >> it's what i do, right? it's what -- i solve problems, karen, okay? it's what i do. >> right on, brother. >> so, obviously, there's a lot of horrible things that we're all learning about from the

unemployment and all these issues. blackberry, i believe, has presented to us a solution! by turning them all off. thus preventing our ability, jimmy, to exchange information, thus making it easier for us to be less outraged and offended, because we are not being infected with such a toxic flow of horrible information. if you look at the -- at what happened yesterday, and how dependent everybody has become on this constancy of interaction. i'm interested what we've become, if all of a sudden we can't talk to each other 50 times a minute, everybody goes into a panic and business can't function. >> i think it was more of a cause that everyone at the same time had the problem. because, let's face it, every company has had their system go down, so people have individually been without their blackberry for a day or two, and yes, it's horrible, and people freak out, but i think it's

everybody had it. at least you weren't alone. >> it was kind of like the blackout in new york. what do you think, karen? >> well, you know, actually, i have to say, i will admit that i have a blackberry and an iphone, so i was more dependent -- >> redundancy, redunredundancy. >> that's called a backup plan. >> but it was a good reminder that, hey, maybe, you pick up the phone and call somebody, you talk to the person. maybe you actually have a conversation, i don't know, let's get crazy, face-to-face instead of -- >> she says from her hotel room. >> remote from a room in d.c. we don't even know where you are. >> i'm going to take it from a different extreme, karen. i live 85 miles west of washington, d.c. in the mountains of virginia in a log cabin. >> the end of the earth -- >> karen's been there. and people say, what are you, the unabomber? >> yes. >> no, he's not. >> don't call me, don't come near my house, and for god's sakes, don't even mail me a letter. please, leave me alone. >> a note to all of jimmy's potential suitors --

>> don't come near my house. >> no letters and don't visit his house. >> i'm not sure about that approach, jimmy. >> it's worked great for seven years. i love piit. >> all right. the panel stays, and as the politicians rake in millions in that auction market and we talk about ending the auction. our specialist who says these days in congress literally everything, far more than you might ever think, is for sale. uh, i'm in a timeout because apparently riding the dog like it's a small horse is frowned upon in this establishment! luckily though, ya know, i conceal this bad boy underneath my blanket just so i can get on e-trade. check my investment portfolio, research stocks... wait, why are you taking... oh, i see...solitary. just a man and his thoughts. and a smartphone... with an e-trade app.

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you have a system, it does not matter who the people are, as long as you have a system where policy is determined at auction. >> the root cause of a lot of what is wrong in our politics today is the nexus of money in politics. there's no question that's true. it perverts public policy on a lot of different levels. >> get money out, we're all hearing it, we're all thinking it, we're all trying to figure it out. it's the topic of conversation, or was the topic of conversation this morning on "morning joe" today. they were very gracious in hosting us for the conversation

this morning. and as you may know, we're only 10,000 signatures away from our first ever digital double, 100 to 200, as we sit there now approaching 189, as we work inside of phase two, which is really to engage in the debate of the draft amendment itself, so that we can work our way through all of the very good points and debating points around that language. hundreds have given us their input. our next guest is a professor of political science and says the problem plaguing politics right now is that everything is for sale, not just the campaigns themselves, ideas, chairmanships, you pick it. joining us now, tom ferguson, senior fellow at the roosevelt institute, has also appeared with us on our podcast radio, free dylan, and tom, you make us sound like that we're not that worried about this issue when you hear us speak. give us a sense of what you see happening with money that has you so incredibly incensed. >> okay. look, dylan, i think it's pretty straight forward. you know, if you want a happy ending, see a disney movie. but the sort of big story here,

the stuff that the beyond the totals and the the fact, you can sort of see all these guys, and women, it's an equal opportunity deal now, diving into barrels of money. you want to understand how the structure, particularly of congress. the piece i was just doing that you asked me about earlier was on the centralization in congress. i mean, the striking thing is the way nobody crosses party lines and people are asking, why does that happen? the bottom line on this, the seniority has collapsed as a way to organize congress. it did maybe 30 years. it's been replaced by an auction system. it's in two levels, though. the first level is people simply make contributions to their fellow members in order to get them to vote for them for a committee slot or a leadership slot. the more importantly one, the thing that's really a killer, though, is the leadership turns around and then insists that they all contribute to, well, either the senate or the house campaign committees. those are controlled by the

leadership. and so what you've done over the last 20 years, ever since newt gingrich put this system in and the democrats copied it. a pay-to-play system. in some sense, it makes the leadership almost all-powerful. and they've put the money into a lot of things besides just money. that is to say, they've built up a lot of stuff for studios and things like that that are real useful if you're campaigning. and so, if a member crosses them, it has real costs. now, what i'm sort of, as i was reflecting just in the last week, what are the consequences of this beyond the obvious, which is that now there's nothing that buffers the influence of financial interests or any other interests that wants policy, you know, just send money, and you can probably control the committee that's going to deal with you, in either party. the somewhat subtle aspect of this is that once upon a time in american politics, if you didn't have enough to control the

national government, and you were just, say, a populist party or something like that, inside a major political party, you could get some congressmen and women to speak up for you. i mean, there'd be a congressional block that would carry your ball for you in public. that stuff is largely gone now, because the messages are controlled from the top. and so, you know, just look at this occupy wall street reaction in the last couple of weeks. basically, none of our congressmen or women are doing very much about this. and i mean, the most exciting thing that happened was that chuck schumer redid the senate bill, the senate jobs bill version of the president's to put in a millionaire's tax. that's it. i mean, that's not seriously responding, the kind of sort of popular discuss that people should be having, where you sort of say something to your representative, they say something -- that's all gone in favor of a sort of centralized,

nationalized message, that's been battle tested with key interest groups and money groups. this is really a problem. >> go ahead, jimmy. >> so in the senate, it used to be that freshman sat in the president's chair, right? and it didn't matter what party you were. all freshman that came in, you had to spend hours in the president's chair. >> yeah, pretty much. >> now it's just the majority party, because they're scared that whoever's in the chair is going to rule against the majority. in essence, you've got to be the majority so you don't rule against the other side, right? south carolina used to do it the following way. in the house and in the senate, you were a chairman by seniority, and it didn't matter if you were a republican or a democrat. you stayed in long enough, you protected your constituents in your county or what have you, in your district, and you got the seniority, you were the chairman. >> just for the audience's sake, if i understand what you guys are saying is, the committees obviously decide what happens.

they decide what legislation happens, what doesn't happen. >> used to be. used to be. >> well, the committee chairman still do that. >> no, they don't, leadership decides. >> so now you're saying the committee chairman doesn't decide -- >> no, leadership tells them what to mark up. >> you saw what happened with the tea party this last go around, they were elected to fight all the folks in washington, not just the democrats -- >> do you actually think for one second -- and tom, pipe in on this. do you think for one second that john boehner allows something to come out of a committee that he doesn't want to come out of a committee? hell, no! >> but i don't think that right now that those 80 freshman tea party members -- >> that's a bigger problem. >> well -- >> that's a bigger problem. >> it goes the leadership, doesn't it. >> karen, go ahead and then we'll come back to professor ferguson. go ahead, karen. >> sure. well, this is actually kind of a question for the professor and it kind of goes to what jimmy was saying. part of what we've seen with the rise of the tea party and the influence of the outside groups run by folks like dick armey and freedomworks, you know, or grover norquist, who tried to scare members of congress and say, if you don't vote the way

we want you to vote, you're not going to get our money, or look at how the tea partyers went after scott brown. what you're seeing is, the whole seniority system is also impacted by, you've got the tea partyers. john boehner can't get any votes, is the challenge i would have to what jimmy's saying. it strikes me that the-ov other piece of this is, particularly now that chairman or leadership don't have, maybe it's the pork system, i don't know, that's part of my question. they don't have a lot of leverage if a group of members that is backed by an outside group that can raise money for them supports them, they're on much more of an even footing than hay used to be. >> look -- i'm losing the audio here. >> that's okay, professor. can you hear me now? >> yeah. >> all right, go ahead. >> look, if you look at the current -- the budget ceiling debate that just concluded, in fact, a majority of the tea party caucus voted with the speaker. you know, i agree with the lady that you could see the influence

of outside groups, especially, it's really in the republican party, what you've got here is a kind of, oh, 20 years of this type of money politics has produced the feeling on the right that they've got so much money, they can sort of come at even the leadership. that's well worth discussing, although i probably don't have the time for it. it is something in which actually the piece that dylan was reading, that got me, i guess, on here, is partly about that. but the bottom line is, the leadership is still in an amazingly strong position. and the tea party caucus did not hold together on that budget ceiling. >> would a constitutional amendment that says money is not speech, that is modeled after ncaa rules work? >> well, i favor a constitutional amendment, absolutely. >> would it help us solve the problem? >> look, you got to do something to shut the supreme court down, because the supreme court is

plainly trying to just, effectively, empower money in just about every way, shape, and form. i mean, it's gone crazy. we're back to the supreme court of the 1880s and 1890s, of the gilded age, that just throws out child labor amendments and everything else. >> got it. listen, professor, thank you, not only for your insight, but for your passion. as you can see, it's a passionate group and you fit right in. that was fun. karen, it's always a pleasure. susan, the same. jimmy is going to stick around for our thursday night fight afterwards and we'll get professor ferguson back. tom ferguson, of course, up at the roosevelt institute and a professor in the boston area. we're going to take a break right now. thanks to our combined efforts were your partnership with myself, jimmy, and everybody else, we together are fast approaching the 200,000 mark on our get money out campaign. we'll be our first legitimate digital double and we are on our way. of course, we can all help each other continue to accelerate this movement by participating

individually in that digital wave by telling our friends, or our nonfriends, you can tell people you don't even like, they might agree with you. jimmy suggests to ex-boyfriends, ex-girlfriends, even ex-bosses, i don't know. and as you know, phase two of this process is really about exploring and educating ourselves, as we try to move forward with this agenda. specifically, the language of the amendment. jimmy, we'll be around after the program on twitter. we'll sit down for our weekly thursday night fight @dylanratigan.com or use the #getmoneyout on twitter at 5:00. up next, a story you'll want to tell all your drinking buddies. i'm not a number.

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to a state of pure inebriation ♪ >> well, as we all know too well, beer can lead people to do some rather stupid things. and an endless supply of beer can lead them to do, well, even stupider thing. which brings me to a local news story we found out of illinois. it goes a little bit like this. a 46-year-old man walking down the street tuesday morning, a couple days ago, minding his own business when he stumbled across a large beer truck. the refrigerated truck had taps on the outside, which happened to be connected to cold keg of beer that were on the inside. there also just happened to be a pitcher nearby. complete coincidence, i'm sure. now, what would you do? well, if you were this guy, you would start filling that pitcher and drinking that delicious liquid courage. in fact, you'd keep drinking it until the truck ran dry or until you got caught. turns out the truck was being used by a banquet hall for a

german heritage celebration. around noon, the staff came out of the hall, found, well, a drunk man and called police. now, here's the best part. as the drunk man was being hauled away in an ambulance, he defended himself to police saying he did absolutely nothing wrong. his excuse, he said he thought he'd died and gone to heaven. and he must have had at least one angel on his side, because the man was not charged with a single crime. coming up, some more serious matters, to say the least. three quarters of americans are saying, and we all know it, this country's on the wrong track. the whole political system is an embarrassment at this point. next, we seek to answer a question that we get asked all the time on this show. how do we do it? the author of a book that claims the how question is the most important question. and in fact, it means everything when it comes to what.

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signatures in less than two weeks. this in support of the get money out campaign. we're now just 10,000 and change away from our first official digital double. and according to our next guest, this wave theory is a perfect metaphor for the power we can all harness together, if we unite with aligned interests and shared visibility for a common passion. in fact, he says, in our hyperconnected world, in this unified field, that is the only way that we, together, will be able to solve the global challenges that we face, and ultimately, this is not a left/right world. this is an up/down world. and we will either rise or fall together. and with us now is dov seidman. the book is called "how: why how we do anything means everything." what do you mean. >> we live in a world where it's not what we do, but how we do what we do means most.

one banker can wipe out bonuses for all of his colleagues and send risk through the financial markets. at the same time, one vegetable vendor in tunisia can spark a wave towards freedom throughout the middle east. we're not just interconnected, dylan, we are so interdependent that we rise and fall together. the behavior of any one person can affect so many other people in ways that it never has. which is why i think we're in the era of behavior, but not just behavior that protects us from lurching crisis to crisis. behavior has become the greatest source of competitive advantage. those who can engender more trust in their relationships, who can relate to others in deeper, more meaningful ways. who can foster environment that are so full of trust that people go on a trip. they turn the trust into risk into innovation, into sustainable progress. those are the ones that are going to win. >> how do you represent the incredible engagement we have seen, and the incredible trust we have experienced so far with the partnership that is the get money out campaign? >> well, i think what people want is our president and

congress to work full-time on massive problems. if you get money out, they can spend all their time against the scale of the problems. these are giant problems. we need them obsessively focused on solving them. but once we get money out of politics, what are we going to put back in? we need to put the right ideas and right values back in. >> that goes to the how question. you've been emphasizing and talked to me before during the commercial break, how this country is obsessed with the question of how much, but doesn't even fully comprehend the importance of how, which is why, whether it's the occupation or these digital waves, they're so far instructive to all of us as to what the how could be. >> we like keeping score in life, and we manage what we measure, and what we measure is a window into what we value and into our values. if a friend came to you in deep crisis and said, dylan, i need $20,000, you wouldn't say a how much conversation, you wouldn't say, how about $15,000?

you would say, how can i help you get back on track. but we say, how much debt, how much resource, how much market share do we need to grab this much. we're not going to go from a how much world to a how world. >> how do you measure how? it's easy to measure how much. >> sure. well, you can. we actually just released a study where we looked at 5,000 employees who work in small to large companies, and we measured the how. and there's good news and bad news. the bad news is that only 4% of employees work in environments that are so full of trust and so rooted in inspiration that they could be on a mission that is worthy of their dedication. that's the bad news. the good news is, those that are, those companies have so much less of what they don't want as conduct and so much more of what they do want. new ideas, innovation, employee loyalty, and customer satisfaction, and the ultimate, which is financial performance. so we need to go on a journey of leadership to understand that we are asking huge things out of

people. we want creativity, innovation, represent our company fairly on social networks. you can't command someone to innovate. you have to inspire that. and leaders have to rethink how they operate and lead others to create inspirational leadership that people burst out of their seats and contribute the most. >> people, for as long as -- since i left the financial universe a few years ago and came into what is effectively a version of a political dialogue, although, i look at it -- i try to look at it in an analytical perspective, people have said, well, dylan, you're a lefty because you're on msnbc, or you must be a right-winger, because you don't say the same things everybody else says about obama. i finally have come to the conclusion that my political axis is an up/down axis, not a left/right axis, and i would be interested in your perspective on the up/down view of the world and what that means and why it's so important that we shatter the left/right paradigm so we can get into an up/down

conversation. >> i actually think the world is to flat and interconnected it's not left/right or up/down, but it's back and forward. and we have been in the grip of situational values, where we do whatever the situation would allow. if we can reconnect with sustainable values, the deep human values, such as truth and honesty that inspire in us the how, we can start to move forward and propel ourselves on a sustainable path. if we have a crisis every 20 years, we can keep staying the course, because we'll go up/down every 20 years. but when you have a crisis, dylan, every 20 days, we need a bulwark against lurching from side to side that simultaneously propel us. and those are the sustainable values that we have to translate into government action, corporate practices, and individual behaviors that make a difference. >> the book, "how: why how we do anything means everything." i strongly suggest you check it out. i have been attempting and we have great success in applying a lot of the values in this book

to the development of our enterprises, both on the nonprofit side with the foundation and with the rest of our undertakings here, and i, again, i feel like i've been living through some of this. and it's very powerful. congrats on the book. >> thank you very much. it's been a pleasure. >> the feeling is mutual. thank you. coming up on "hardball," obama versus romney. president obama's campaign team setting its sights on who they see as their biggest threat. but next, something most anyone can relate to, we're talking about horrible bosses. noah katz on some advice on how to deal with your boss. follow the wings. [ vet ] your turn max. [ cat ] inside and out. and i'm not the only one who thinks so...right doc? [ female announcer ] vets agree, a healthy check up starts inside. our breakthrough iams premium protection formula

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we got to trim some of the the fat around here. >> trim -- what do you mean by trim the fat? >> i want you to fire the fat people. >> what?! >> they're lazy and they're slow and they make me sad to look at. you can start with large marge. marge, can you come in here. >> margie's pregnant, she's not fat. >> stay where you are, marge. congratulations. >> hollywood may have turned horrible bosses into humor, but if your daily grind is anything but that, it's not nearly so fun. here's what a recent study revealed about the state of the american workplace. 40% of workers would not acknowledge their boss if they saw them on the street. one in four have caught their supervisor in a lie, but never got an apology. and nearly a third have hidden from boss. it's a large addiction treatment facility here in new york. he's also a columnist for the

street.com. and my personal on-air therapist. noah. >> dylan! >> what to do about this situation. i can't think of anything worse, having had a few horrible bosses, it's not an easy one. >> it's not an easy one, especially in this time, in this economy. i mean, this is becoming an acute problem. you have employees who have nowhere to go, they can't abandon ship, so they have to deal with bosses who are really trying to get the most profits they can out of the limited staff that they can. and sometimes this comes off as a little hostile. and these -- >> sometimes? sometimes they come out of as hostile. 40% of people won't acknowledge them on the street. that's not sometimes. that's 40% of the time. >> but unfortunately, they have to still go to work, so they have to acknowledge them when they're there. and some of the tools that i have is to create like a safe space within the workforce -- >> like bring a tent. >> bring a tent filled with your fellow employees. that can protect you from the

boss, and that can validate your overall -- >> seriously, what do you mean? what is this safe space that you speak of? >> what i seriously mean is being with people who tell you that you're doing a good job, even if you're not getting it from your boss. get it from your fellow employees. get it from the people in your life. and when your boss is going on a rant, realize that this often is not about you, it's not -- don't personalize the situation. realize that this is a function of pressures that they're getting from a bigger boss, most likely. and learn to take a step back, and understand that there's a difference between short-term goals as an employee and long-term goals. >> so, basically, when your boss is being whatever he's being -- >> crazy. >> crazy. you need to separate that craziness from yourself and you need to say, oh, look at the jacketdoodle, i'm not going to worry about that, that's not my problem. >> and that's not what i want to get out of this work experience. there's no benefit in me meeting

negativity with negativity. what i want is to have a job right now, and there might be greener pastures later on. >> but what the jacketdoodle is legitimately -- i mean, just abusive to you? >> well, it's a cost/benefit analysis. i mean, i wouldn't work anywhere where someone was actually abusive to me. i'd jump ship. of course, people have to eat. and anyone who's being harassed, anyone who's being taken advantage of certainly should not be in the workforce, regardless of having to be employed or not. but i think, also, my generation is a little bit sensitive. i think sometimes there's a difference between content and tone. and sometimes people are a little aggressive. and like i said, it has nothing to do with you. so take a step back, look at the big picture. realize that you have a long employment history. and this is one step in many work environments that you'll be. >> but it sounds like the two -- these are two things that somebody could do today is save space and don't meet negativity with negativity. but that's the immediate

solution this afternoon to simply relieve yourself of some of these anxiety and stress of the situation. >> and worry about getting the new job tomorrow, you know? i'm very lucky, man. i got the world's -- i got the world's greatest boss, marilyn white. she's in her early 70s, she's been helping people get off of drugs and alcohol for about 30 years. she teaches me how to motivate people, so i don't become like colin farrell in that movie. and hopefully, we've created a culture and a realization center that promotes creativity, creates motivation and isn't a hostile work environment. >> my boss is a former executive producer of the "today" show and i think he's fantastic. it's nice to have a good boss. >> so we're part of that small echelon. >> i used to have a boss that used to smash the phone all the time. >> really? >> yeah. >> really? >> what'd you do? >> i used to smash my phone too. >> that's meeting negativity with negativity. that's exactly what i'm telling you not to do. >> i don't do