and that's "hardball" for now. thanks for being with us. "the last word" with lawrence o'donnell starts right now. herman cain may be in the lead in the republican presidential race, but the real front-runner is still president obama. >> a new shocking surge by herman cain. >> yes, it is the surging ceo of godfather's pizza. >> herman cain is a great candidate for republicans who want to feel more than they want to think. >> we had donald trump near the lead about five months ago. then there was the michele bachmann surge. >> can he be a serious alternative to mitt romney? >> no. >> herman cain is clearly to the ideological right of mitt romney. >> there's a core constituency on the right within the gop that is not satisfied with mitt romney. >> the people who are most likely to vote are the people who are supporting herman cain.

you'u've got h herman c cain who's g got a lot of passion going, and then you've got rick perry who's sitting on $nd that can't buy you love but it can rent you some organizazation. > i'm ricick pererry. and are e you brreaking u up with me? >> what about the guy that made pizza? in first place. >> 9-9-9! >> 9-9-9 has been basically dismissed by virtually every single reasonably educated economist that we can find. >> he may be making it up as he goes along. >> creating a vat and a sales tax and keeping the income tax. it's like having three needles in your arm take blood out. >> i do not think herman cain is the front-runner for the nomination. that said, you look at your poll, chuck, and there is a -- >> here are the head-to-head match-ups. you have president obama at 46% over mitt romney at 44%. against rerman cain herman cain the president has an 11-point lead and against rick perry he has a 12-point lead. >> we're stuck with mitt. >> if we don't run with chris

christie romney will be the nominee and we'll lose. more good news for herman cain. after taking the lead in yesterday's nbc news/"wall street journal" national poll of republican voters, he now has the lead in the all-important primary state of florida. in a new poll from the american research group cain has 34%, romney has 28%, newt gingrich has 11%, and rick perry comes in fourth with just 5%. cain is already imagining who would serve in his cabinet as vice president as he did today on a conservative radio show. >> there are some people in congress that are very, very good, that i respect and admire, that i would love to have on my team. whether that would be in a vp slot or whether that would be in a key cabinet slot, i'll give

you a name, like representative paul ryan, senator jim demint, people who are not afraid to challenge the system. people who are not afraid to put on the table what we should do and not just what we think we can get done. newt is a great, great -- he's a brilliant mind. and i don't know how -- i don't know how things are going to turn out, but i am going to -- i am going to call upon newt gingrich to assist me at some point some way because he brings so much knowledge and insight to this whole process. but more importantly, to the problems we face in this country. >> and cain's 9-9-9 tax plan is finally getting a closer look by the media. as we showed you here last night, it includes almost as an afterthought abolishing social security and medicare. no republican seems to have a problem with that. but ultraconservative, anti-tax lobbyist grover norquist opposes the plan because it creates new taxes.

>> it's like having three needles in your arm taking blood out. it's much more dangerous than just one. and because he has a transition period, where you have these three taxes and then he wants to go to a retail sales tax, what if the democrats win the house, the senate, or the presidency during the transition period and say let's keep all three, all three would grow over time. >> here's how cain describes the adviser who developed his tax plan. >> my advisers come from the american people. now, i will have some experts. one of my experts that helped me to develop this is a gentleman by the name of rich lowry out of cleveland, ohio. he is an economist, and he has worked in the business of wealth creation most of his career. rich lowry out of cleveland, texas is one of the economists i have used. he's been my lead economist on helping to develop this. >> rich lowry may be from ohio, but he is not an economist. he's an employee at the wells fargo branch in pepper pike, ohio.

in an interview with bloomberg lowry was asked about his credentials. he said, "when people say, well, you're not an economist, you're not even -- you've not even set foot in a faculty lounge, what could you possibly know about economics, i'm not holding myself out to be that. we're just focused on simple truths of economics, the same way it doesn't take a ph.d. in physics to know what would happen if i held a bowling ball and then dropped it. just a short time ago on cnbc's "kudlow report" lowrie added this detail. >> my interest in economics started with you in 1988. and first, let me say in front of the whole world, thank you, larry, and god bless you. >> the huffington post thinks rich lowrie may have lifted the 9-9-9 idea. it might be a bigger republican plagiarism scandal than scott

brown cutting and pasting part of an elizabeth dole campaign speech into his personal message on his congressional website. the idea of the three 9% taxes was used in the sim city virtual reality game, as you can see in this screen grab from the 2003 edition. joining me now is sam stein, plinth political reporter for the huffington post. sam, congratulations to the huffington post for getting to the bottom of the 9-9-9 plan, where it came from. it doesn't get stranger than this in the politics of economics in our country, to have -- >> no. >> -- to have that screen grab being relevant to the story. but also this adviser to herman cain who has no training in what it is he's talking about, what it is, and says in his mind this is very simple, this is as simple as the physics of dropping a bowling ball.

>> well, first of all, if we cc'ed the pulitzer xhirkts as our reporter amanda turkel did for the simcity piece we put up. it was sort of a bizarre coincidence, and we're wondering if rich lowrie is a secret gamer. this 9-9-9 plan, more coverage for this plan than any proposal that will never be enacted into law i think in the history of politics. it's obviously dead on arrival both because conservatives like grover norquist don't like it. you can easily demonize it -- the sales tax component of it as was demonized as a tax on common goods like milk or beer or bread or anything like that. and if herman cain were to get through the primary and into the general election, democrats would likely love this because they can say, you're lowering the personal income tax rates for the wealthiest americans down to 9%. it's a huge giveaway to the wealthy. so this thing is a nice simple gimmick that has vaulted mr. cain up into the ranks of the republican primary election but it's so unserious and so

unlikely to pass it's almost a wonder we're spending so much time analyzing it. >> but the wonder of it is it could be the essential plan of the republican front-runner. the wonder of it is that it is popular with republican voters who clearly at this stage don't know what's in it. they're learning more, though. let's watch herman cain's exchange today on "the daily rundown" with chuck todd. it was yesterday with chuck todd. >> the sales tax in the state of florida or any other state, i'm not addressing that. that's going to be there whether we have the old system or the new system. so let's not muddy the water with that. that's a totally different situation. now, when you look at the sales tax and the fact that we are taking out embedded taxes that are built into all of the goods and services in this country, prices will not go up. they will not go up. >> will they go down? >> people who are stretching -- they will probably go down.

>> sam, that's herman cain not wanting to muddy the water with any state sales taxes that are already in place on the order of 8% and other amounts in other states, to which you would add a new 9%, bringing the sales tax in some states, you know, up around 17%, something like that. >> exactly. >> on everything sold in the state. muddy the water if you mention state sales tax ppz. >> these are minor details. it does feel like he's or the of improvising this. i read somewhere that he was going to make an exemption for charitable deductions and then, you know, as new issues are raised he keeps making exemptions for them as well. what we have here is a candidate who has taken advantage of a particularly nice niche, and that is the anti-mitt romney. these are very soft poll numbers. and it doesn't talk a genius to dig into his biography to make it complicated for him to stay on these poll numbers. it's not just the tax. we looked at his 2004 senate campaign, for instance.

the social issues. this might go over well in a republican electorate. but he called gays godless. he said that planned parenthood was in the business -- or suggested planned parenthood was in the business of ujennics. this is someone that holds fairly radical beliefs. and as soon as a little bit of money is devoted by the romney campaign or any other campaign to digging up these types of things, i have a feeling that mr. cain will probably go as fast down the polls as he went up them. >> yeah, i'm going to dig deeper into 9-9-9 later tonight in the show. in fact, i think every night i'm going to be turning over a new page of 9-9-9 on this show. >> why doesn't anyone go 8-8-8 is my question? >> there's a lot of fun to be had in this plan. sam stein, thank you so much for joining me tonight. >> thanks, lawrence. "time" magazine has a new cover story called "the return of the silent majority," which shows that most voters are not partisans, are not tea partiers, but are moderates who are looking for more civility and compromise in their politics. joining me now is joe klein, columnist for "time" magazine and the author of that cover story.

thanks for joining me tonight, joe. >> good to be here, lawrence. >> joe, in your piece you say you got out there on the road -- by the way, i consider that cheating in political punditry, you getting out there, talking to actual voters. that's not fair. we're supposed to stay in studios in new york or washington and tell america what those voters are thinking. but okay, you had to cheat, get out there in the car and talk to them. and you write that what you found out there is that there was tolerance for the president outside of planet tea party, where the most disgraceful and dare i say un-american insinuations still fester. obama is assumed to be intelligent and honest. he is assumed to be trying hard to find compromises between the parties on most issues. and he is also assumed to be in over his head. a good man who has proved to be a disappointing leader." joe, i didn't read anything else in there about any particular praise for any other politicians.

>> well, there was praise for mitt romney. there are an awful lot of traditional republicans. i spoke to a lot of small businessmen on this road trip. by the way, it was 19 days, 20 -- 2,976 miles about, 15 town meetings with "time" readers who reached out to me and wanted to meet with me. and a lot of them really were straight-ahead conservative democrats or moderate republicans. a lot of romney voters out there. and some who are still looking. >> the nbc/"wall street journal" poll shows that president obama is ahead of mitt romney in a one-on-one match-up, 46-44, that's basically a tie within the margin of error. he's ahead of herman cain by a big margin, 49-38. and he really wipes out rick perry at 51-39. so president obama is still the front-runner in this race.

they're going to have to get in there. and romney, if he's the nominee, is going to have to get in there and take it away from him. how do you see a romney-obama race shaping up? republicans like ann coulter have feared that romney is too much like president obama to beat him. >> well, you know what? it's kind of hilarious that the top of this program was about herman cain and that romney is not getting credit for what i thought was one of the better debate performances i'd ever seen. you know, in the past romney has been kind of cold and not very engaging. i thought for the first time on tuesday night this is a guy who could stand with the president of the united states and give him a real tussle. you know, i think it would be a very close race. >> it seems perry really has sharpened romney's game. i agree with you, joe, his debate performances have just gotten better and better. but he has trouble in republican world. let's listen to what rush limbaugh is now saying about mitt romney.

we don't have it. i thought we had it. i will read to you what rush is saying. he's saying, "romney's not a conservative. he's not. and some of his audience is disappointed when he says it. you can argue with me all day long," says rush, "but he's not a conservative." he goes on and on about that. "i want to point out that rush was very much against the candidacy of john mccain as john mccain was on his road to the nomination last time, too." so the rush curse doesn't exactly stop republicans on their way to the nomination. >> you know, rush limbaugh's definition of what a conservative is isn't a definition of what a conservative is. you know, we have a poll out this week, too, the "time" magazine poll. 89% of the american people want to have politicians who make compromises on big issues like deficit reduction. and you know, over 70% want to see higher taxes on the wealthy. we see this in poll after poll after poll. in our poll only 11% identified

themselves as supporters of the tea party, while 54% had positive feelings toward the occupy wall street movement. what i saw out in the country was that people were sick of the kind of bloviating that rush limbaugh does. he has his audience, but it's a small audience. >> joe, you say that the voter, the swing voter, the voters are going to control the outcome of this election are looking for a moderate. is president obama going to be seen as that moderate by the time we get to november? >> well, i think he is seen as a moderate by most voters. but there is this tremendous megaphone on the right. these are right-wingers, not conservatives. right-wingers use the word "socialism" an awful lot, and they talk about him apologizing for america and all these other things that most of the people -- and i was driving through a very conservative part of this country. through texas, arkansas, missouri, iowa.

you know, most people do not see him that way. >> joe klein of "time" magazine, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> my pleasure. coming up, we'll go live to the occupy wall street demonstration in lower manhattan, where tonight protesters fear they are on the eve of a major crackdown designed to end their demonstrations. and later, the political fight over abortion returns to the house of representatives. democrats say a republican bill aimed at restricting women's rights is so misogynistic that the party wants to send women -- wants to put women in shackles.

coming up, at this hour tension is growing in lower manhattan over occupy wall street. protesters have been put on notice that they must leave the

park where they have gathered for nearly a month so that the park can be cleaned. but the protesters are vowing to stay. that could trigger a potential face-off with police tomorrow morning. and later, while criticism of herman cain's 9-9-9 plan grows, the policy picks up the endorsement of joe the plumber. joe the plumber will join me.

essentially, what they're saying is that america, a, has become too unequal and, b, that

some of the people that caused the problem are in good shape today and a lot of them aren't. this can be a positive thing. but they're going to have to kind of transfer their energies at some point to making some specific suggestions. >> a new "time" magazine poll out today shows a majority of american voters favor the occupy wall street movement, 54%. 23% have an unfavorable impression. tension is building tonight between the owners of zucati park and the growing number of protesters who've called that park home for the past 27 days. starting tomorrow at 7:00 a.m., brookfield office properties, inc. plans to move protesters out of the park while they clean the area. that message delivered by new york city mayor michael bloomberg in a surprise visit there last night. brookfield chief executive richard clark wrote a letter

tuesday to new york police commissioner ray kelly, saying, "after weeks of occupation, conditions at the park have deteriorated to unsanitary and unsafe levels." commissioner kelly had this to say today. >> it's complex. people have a right to be there. but brookfield has the right to sort of establish the ground rules. so that's what's happening now. they now have decided that they want to clean the area. and they're going to do that. we'll stand by to make sure that, you know, the peace is maintained. >> commissioner kelly says the protesters will be allowed to re-enter the park after its cleaning. but according to a notice distributed from brookfield, camping and/or the use of tents, sleeping bags, and simply lying down will all be prohibited in the park. occupy wall street's cleanups facebook page reads, "friday

morning we'll awake and position ourselves with our brooms and mops in a human chain around the park, linked at the arms. if nypd attempts to enter, we'll peacefully, non-violently stand our ground, and those who are willing will get arrested. joining me now, moveon.org's campaign director, daniel mintz, who has just delivered a petition to new york city mayor michael bloomberg in an effort to stop tomorrow's efforts to vacate the park. daniel, thanks for joining us tonight. >> thanks, lawrence. >> what does your petition to the mayor say? >> it's pretty simple. i mean, i'll read it. i've got a copy of it right here. it just says respect the protesters' first amendment rights. don't try to evict occupy wall street. >> and what is your understanding of what is going to happen there tomorrow? is there any new information about what brookfield, the owners of the park area, have and the police, what they have

in mind? >> no. we haven't heard anything. you know, we -- about 100 people marched the petition up to city hall just a couple hours ago. more than 200,000 people have gone to moveon.org since noon today to sign this petition to say these people, there's no reason to evict them, it's totally unnecessary. you know, they're here peacefully assembled, exercising their first amendment rights, and it's just a completely unnecessary move by the mayor. >> russell simmons has just tweeted, "i am hearing about a potential showdown at occupy wall street tomorrow. i am offering to pay for the cleanup of the park to avoid any problems." daniel, do you think there's any possibility of that kind of offer by russell simmons being accepted? >> it's a very generous offer, but i don't think it's needed. i mean, there have been dozens of people back behind me cleaning the park this evening. you know, the park is really clean. if the mayor wants to do something for america, he should go clean up wall street, not zuccotti park. >> chris hayes actually has tweeted earlier tonight that he

thinks the best thing that the mayor could do to raise even more attention to this cause is to force -- attempt to force an eviction from the park. what do you imagine would happen if the police do attempt to force that eviction tomorrow? >> i mean, we've seen it several times. every time that the nypd engages with protesters, makes mass arrests, you know, the movement only grows stronger. that's why there are -- they've really struck a chord. they're standing up for the 99% of us who've been left behind in this economy. and you know, against the 1% that are now set toe evict them from this park. sitting on the board, the owner of this park is the mayor's girlfriend. and so that's who's been putting pressure on the mayor that this property company, to kick these people out. they don't like the fact that they've struck a chord with the 99% of americans who are moveon.org. we are less than 12 hours away

from this attempt to vacate the protesters from the park. thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up -- democratic leader nancy pelosi takes on the republicans for their latest effort to restrict abortion rights. and herman cain and the 9-9-9 plan are in the "rewrite" tonight. herman cain is having more and more trouble trying to explain how that plan works. that's going to be in the "rewrite." i

still to come in this hour, earlier tonight house republicans voted to pass the protect life act, which would not create a single job but it would restrict abortion rights. that's next. and joe the plumber has filed papers to run for the house of representatives. joe the plumber will join me later. and what hermann cacain doesn'n't knowow about his 99-9-9 plalan. that's in the "rewrite." [ female announcer ] instantly smooth wrinkles with a shot? wait a second... with olay challenge that. new regenerist wrinkle revolution... relaxes the look of wrinkles instantly,

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when the republicans vote for this bill today, they will be voting to say that women can die on the floor and health care providers do not have to intervene. i can't even describe to you the logic of what it is that they are doing. >> house republicans voted tonight 251-172 to pass hr-358,

the protect life act. nicknamed the let women die bill by pro-choice democrats, the legislation seeks to prohibit women from using tax subsidies from the affordable care act to purchase insurance that covers abortion except in cases of rape, insist, or health risk to the mother. it would make it illegal for federal funds to go to any health care plan that provides abortion services even if the woman pays out of her own pocket. >> my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are attempting to do is misogynist. it is absolutely misogynist. the time has come for us to stop taking up this issue over and over again this year and do something that the american people really care about. they want jobs. they want to be able to hold on to their homes. they want some mortgage relief. and what do we do? we stand here on the floor and

create yet another opportunity for women to be cast in shackles. >> instead of continuing to focus on creating jobs and getting the american people back to work, tomorrow the house of representatives is scheduled to turn its attention to a device of politically motivated piece of legislation thaun necessary dge gislation that unnecessarily restricts the private insurance choice that's women and their families have today. >> joining me now, michelle goldberg, author of "the means of reproduction: sex, power, and the future of the world." thanks for joining me tonight, michelle. >> thanks for having me. >> so as i understand, the republicans claim they need to do this -- federal funding for abortion is already banned through the hyde amendment. so i never understand why it keeps coming up, because it's banned. >> well, i think -- >> but they're saying there's something that the democrats did 2349 president's health care bill that requires us to go in and plug some hole. >> well, there are two different things going on here. part of it is just legislation as propaganda. republicans have been claiming as part of their kind of

full-court press against health care reform that it subsidizes abortion. it does not. but if they can pass a law ostensibly to stop health care reform from subsidizing abortion, it only kind of reinforces their case and helps convince their base that by fighting health care reform they're also fighting on behalf of the pro-life cause. and then they've gone above and beyond. one thing republicans often like to do is pass laws in response to non-existent problems and then use them to kind twist the knife a little bit more. you've seen that in response to so-called voter fraud. it kind of goes all the way into voter disenfranchisement. i think this is somewhat analogous. the most ziftdic part of this law is the so-called conscience clause which would go further than current law -- >> what is current law? >> okay. so there's something called the access to medical treatment and active labor act.

which requires hospitals to -- it basically says that hospitals can't turn people away in emergency life and death situations and that if they can't treat them they have to transfer them to another hospital that can and that hospital can't turn them away. so the way that that's been interpreted right now with catholic hospitals -- and this is mostly about catholic hospitals. which are 15% of all hospitals. the way that's been interpreted so far is that catholic hospitals have routinely refused to treat women in really life-threatening circumstances and transferred them to other hospitals. there's been some question about whether what they're doing is kind of valid. the aclu has said in many cases they've endangered women by transferring them, say, to a hospital 90 miles away when they're in sepsis or they're hemorrhaging or when they can barely be stabilized. but at the very least right now you would have to transfer them. this law would not only say that they absolutely don't have to treat them, which right now is somewhat up in the air, but it

would say that you don't even have to transfer them. >> so you don't have to start up the ambulance, just leave them right there. >> right. and it's easy to imagine a case when they wouldn't when somebody who is so opposed to abortion that they would reject transferring them because that would itself result in an abortion. and again, these are in very dire, dire cases when usually the pregnancy isn't viable and the woman's life is, you know -- is at stake that very day. >> now, if that was a real factor that somehow needed to be dealt with, why did the republicans wait until this day in 2011 when they could have tried to legislate that at many times in the past? >> you know, i think that the republicans have convinced themselves that women are so kind of desperate to kind of get their delectable abortion business any subterfuge possible, it's partially why they tried to redefine rape earlier this year. they said we're only going to pay for abortion in case of forcible rape, the idea being

that women were just sneakily claiming rape to get their abortions. there's something here that says if women are just kind of sneakily claiming that their life is at stake. so it's not a real problem. the only way -- it is a real problem in that there's a debate about whether or not catholic hospitals are treating women adequately. and so in that sense they're kind of catering -- they're covering them. but this is also just a way to kind of further an incredibly twisted view of women and women's health kind of by any means possible. >> michelle goldberg, columnist for the daily beast, thank you very much for joining me tonight. >> thanks so much for having me. >> coming up, joe the plumber is running for congress. he'll join me to explain why. and the questions herman cain cannot answer about his 9-9-9 plan. there arare a lolot of devevils in ththose dedetails. that's next in the "rewrite."

in herman cain's 9-9-9 tax plan the 9% corporate tax would actually put companies out of business. a lot of companies. and killing businesses is a really great way to kill jobs. the 9-9-9 job killer plan is in tonight's "rewrite." and joe the plumber is looking for support in his run for congress. but he probably won't find much support from one group. plumbers. we'l'll tatalk too the mostst fafamous plumber in america, joe the plumber is coming up. [ female announcer ] secret scent expressions combines great odor protection with a coco butter scent. amazing microcapsules absorb and neutralize odor releasing scent anytime you need it. all day long. secret scent expressions deodorant/antiperspirant. also in body splashes. when i got my medicare card, i realized i needed an aarp... medicare supplement insurance card, too. medicare is one of the great things about turning 65, but it doesn't cover everything.

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tonight another episode of the devil is in the details. tonight's episode, of course, is herman cain's 9-9-9 tax plan. let's listen to yet another confident explanation of 9-9-9 by herman cain yesterday in new hampshire. >> on the first 9, relative to corporate profits, you are allowed to deduct -- this was in the calculation. you are allowed to deduct purchases and capital investments. 100%. no depreciation schedules. capital expenses and purchases. if those purchases were made here in the united states of america. >> so that's it. businesses are allowed to deduct only purchases and capital investments, which are of course really just big purchases. so purchases and big purchases.

now, that would bankrupt most american businesses because the 9-9-9 plan does not allow them to deduct what is the biggest expense for most businesses. salaries. you can't deduct salaries. nor does the 9-9-9 plan allow businesses to deduct rent or attorney's fees or accountant's fees or all sorts of regular costs of doing business. the 9-9-9 plan does not understand the difference between a company's revenue and that company's profit. it is impossible to calculate a company's profit without accounting for, that is to say, deducting all of its real, legitimate expenses. under the 9-9-9 plan companies that lose money, they make no profit at all, would still have to pay taxes on their non-existent profit. cain's version of the 9% tax on

businesses would actually be a huge tax increase on most businesses. it would in fact be a business-killing tax. it would put some companies out of business, which means it would be a jobs-killing tax. in 1819 chief justice john marshall famously wrote in a supreme court decision, "the power to tax involves the power to destroy." herman cain shows you exactly how to do that. with his ill-conceived 9% corporate tax that does not allow corporations to include reasonable and normal business expenses. i'm not talking about their wild complicated tax loopholes. i'm talking about all normal reasonable business expenses. they're not allowed to be deducted under the 9-9-9 plan. now, if a democrat had proposed

this, fox news would be screaming about a crazed anti-business socialist who was going to destroy american businesses and the american economy. now, let's restart that tape and listen to the rest of what herman cain had to say. >> on the first 9, relative to corporate profits, you are allowed to deduct -- this was in the calculation -- you are allowed to deduct purchases and capital investments. 100%. no depreciation schedules. capital expenses and purchases. if those purchases were made here in the united states of america. if you purchased components from a country outside of the united states, you can't deduct them. what does that do, folks? it makes u.s. goods more competitive with the rest of the world.

it levels the playing field. this is how we deal with china. >> okay. first of all, that doesn't level the playing field. that tilts the playing field in favor of american products over foreign products. now, i know it's asking way too much of the herman cain campaign or most of the campaign press to know that that would be in violation of the international trade rules enforced by the world trade organization. those rules are supported by the united states because without them we would risk being unable to sell our products anywhere in the world. what herman cain wants to do is put a tax on chinese goods or any foreign goods that any american corporation purchases. he's not calling it a tariff, but that is what it is. and it violates every trade agreement we have in american law now, including the three that congress finally passed

last night. and if the united states was ever crazy enough to do something like this, other countries would retaliate immediately, creating a virtual shutdown of american exports around the world. boeing would be stuck trying to sell new aircraft exclusively inside the 50 united states while airbus would be selling its aircraft everywhere else in the world. but boeing wouldn't actually be selling any new aircraft because new aircraft in america would have cain's new 9% tax on it and used aircraft wouldn't. see, this simplified the tax code thing gets wicked complicated wicked fast. yesterday in new hampshire if got too complicated for herman cain on the very first question he was asked when he finished describing his 9-9-9 plan. it was the single best question

anyone has asked herman cain so far, including every question that i asked in the last week. >> so sir, if you bought under 9-9-9 an apple computer designed in the united states with components made in malaysia and assembled in china, would you get to deduct it? >> i have no idea. >> the man with the plan has no idea whether an american corporation would be able to deduct the purchase of its computers, any computer. because there are no computers made in the united states with only american components. none. it doesn't exist. that product does not exist. there is no american car made in the united states with only american-made components. is a bmw made in south carolina an american car? >> i have no idea. >> is a toyota camry made in kentucky an american car?

>> i have no idea. >> oh. according to a department of energy report, it is usually impossible to tell whether the petroleum products you use came from domestic or imported sources of oil once they are refined. would airlines in america and other businesses be able to deduct their fuel expenses? >> i have no idea. i have no idea. i have no idea. ♪ [ male announcer ] a simple gesture can spark romance anytime. and when it does, men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day so you can be ready anytime the moment's right, even if it's not every day. [ man ] tell your doctor about

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my name's joe wurz'llback. >> good to see you, joe. >> i'm getting ready to buy a

company that makes about 250,000, 270,000, $280,000 a year. your new tax plan's going to tax me more, doesn't it? >> from the 250 down your taxes are going to stay the same. it is true that for, say, 250 up, from 250 to 300 or so -- >> well, here's my question -- >> hold on a second. i just want to answer your question. so for that additional amount you'd go from 36% to 39%, which is what it was under bill clinton. >> that was a famous scene from the 2008 presidential campaign that started joe the plumber's 15 minutes of fame. joe the plumber is back in the limelight after having filed his statement of candidacy paperwork to run for the house of representatives in ohio's 9th congressional district. he will run as a republican despite telling "time" magazine in 2009 that he was quitting the republican party. joining me now, republican candidate for congress joe wuele, tnk you very much for joininme tonight. >> thanks, mr. o'donnell. >> joe, you support the cain

9-9-9 plan? >> i like a lot of it. what do you think? i heard a little bit of what you think. if you don't like cain's 9-9-9 plan, what do you want to propose? right now the tax system's broke. don't you agree? >> it's a complicated tax system that we have now, joe, obviously. but what herman cain's finding out is changing it is as complicated as trying to add to the ridiculously complicated version we have now. but let me ask you about it because what is the median income in that district that you'd be running in? do you know? i don't mean it as a gotcha question, but do you know that? have you looked that up? >> well, actually, i do. i was having some things with the school board. right around $40,000 a year is the median income. >> yeah, it's 43. and every estimate of the herman cain 9-9-9 plan indicates that people in, say, making around $43,000, families with that kind of income, would actually pay $2,000 to $4,000 more in taxation, especially because of that very heavy new sales tax that he would introduce.

and i'm not asking you to figure out tonight exactly which one of these estimates is right. but if those estimates turned out to be true, that those people would end up paying more in taxation under the cain plan, would you still favor that? >> well, you know what's amazing is one group has their experts saying one thing. another group has their experts saying a whole other thing. so really to be honest with you to sit there and make any kind of choice of what you're giving me right now would be silly. >> okay. and have you seen in herman cain's platform that he wants to abolish social security and medicare? is that something you could also support? >> are we going to talk about what i want to do with the great lakes or are we going to talk about herman cain? you can have him back on if you like, mr. o'donnell. >> i just want to ask you before you go to the great lakes, do you want to apologize -- abolish social security and medicare? >> do i want to? >> yeah. >> is that what you're asking me? >> yes. >> no. do god, no. i want to protect medicare, social security, and medicare. those promises have been made and they need to be kept. >> why are you running, joe? what made you decide to run?

>> well, there's a couple reasons. i'll give you three real quick. one is i want to show the american people and the people in the great lake district that i can run, win, and serve, not compromise the integrity or principles. the second reason's jobs, man. we have to have jobs in this area. union, non-union alike, we need jobs. and the third reason i like to push are veterans. our veterans need to be taken care of. the promises made have to be kept. and those are three issues right off the top of my head. i can give you many more. but you know, i want to promote american people over party politics. it's got to be done. the republicans, democrats, they seem to serve themselves, and i'm sick and tired of it. i want someone that serves america. and unfortunately, not enough of us are stepping up. so i'm going to step up and serve. >> do you think that the three trade bills that the republicans in the house of representatives passed yesterday will help create jobs as she insist they insist that they will? >> you know, i really hope so. i know some of the issues with that as far as down in panama and south korea. on the surface it can.

some of the democrats have voted for it, believe it as well. but you have some people on the back side that don't believe it. i guess time will tell. >> joe, do you live in that district, the 9th district? >> you know, i did up until just a couple -- a couple weeks ago, when i was thinking about this and praying about it and talking it over with my family, you know, i did. now, they had just made the change. and that gave me pause for a short time. i sat there and rethought and prayed some more, and what it comes down to, the reason i still haven't changed as to why i'm making an announcement on october 25th. >> so you're still thinking about you're close but you're going to make a final decision on october 25th? >> yeah. october 25th, you know, we'll have an event and we'll talk about it and see how things go. >> joe wurzelbacher, come back when you make your decision. joe the plumber. thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thanks a lot, mr. o'donnell. >> you can have "the last word" online at our blog, the last word.msnbc.com.