is cain able? let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in washington. leading off tonight, can rocky win? ♪ herman cain is the rocky in this republican race, the guy who came out of nowhere, who few respected as a full-fledged candidate, who suddenly has shown he can throw a punch and is a real contender. but can he win the most votes? can herman cain turn his anybody

but romney support into real campaign that actually wins caucuses and primaries? plus, here's a provocative headline we saw today, will mitt romney kill the tea party? conservatives winced at the idea of the born-again conservative romney as the republican nominee, and there's some talk of a third-party challenge to him. on the other side of the political spectrum are the occupy wall street protests, are they real? is there real anger here that can spread throughout the country? author michael lewis joins us on whether the protesters can use that anger to change american hearts and minds. and if you're like me and grew up in a time of racial tensions and riots, it's amazing and gratifying to see a country that has a democratic african-american president, and another african-american at the top now of the gop field. how far have we come on this weekend that we do dedicate the martin luther king jr. memorial here in washington. and let me finish tonight with a call to action to those protesting on wall street. get something done. we start with the rise of herman cain.

david corn's an msnbc political analyst and "mother jones" magazine's washington bureau chief, and jonathan martin is senior political reporter for politico. gentleman, i want to know how this ends for this fellow, herman cain, who's come out of nowhere. you're chuckling but let me raise a couple of questions here. i'm going to give you a number of questions, the scenario. this guy keeps going up. he's ahead now in south carolina. he's ahead now in florida. he's ahead of the field against a guy who can't do anything but flatline. mitt romney won't get above 23. he stays right there, like a dead guy, politically. whereas cain keeps going up. my question to you, if cain can even hold second place to romney, who gets ahead of him? who beats him? >> i'll tell you where this ends up. it ends up with herman cain on fox news and a lot of book sales. this guy will not be the nominee, chris. maybe rick perry comes back, you know, it's true that mitt romney's in a weak position, can't get above, but herman cain, once mitt romney, or

anybody else, starts spending millions of dollars to tell the american public that his 9-9-9 plan means tax increases for anyone making $50,000 or below, his campaign is going to flame out, if it hasn't already. he is so vulnerable on this and other fronts. he still can't talk about anything else other than 9-9-9. i just don't see the republican party that crazy. >> let me go to a couple things. we've all agreed, i think you agree, that someone has to challenge romney from the right. somebody in the end will be in the race with him throughout the spring, challenging him as the alternative to a guy who's not a tea partier. so somebody will be the hero of the tea party. now you've got to argue that somebody has to beat this guy. do you think perry has the iq, politically, to get out there and fight against the guy who has won -- he's done well, let me put it this way, in every debate he's been in, who goes up in the polls every time. who can talk. something that perry can't do. do you say his ads -- >> if we're agreeing -- >> look at this guy! have you heard anything out of this guy yet, his campaign? >> no, no, no. but if you're agreeing there has

to be a stand-in for the anti-romney vote, i think you're right. that may be rick perry, as iq-challenged as he might be -- >> political iq. >> but it's not going to be herman cain. >> you think you know a lot about the republican party, here's haley barbour on herman cain's chance of success. in southern states. haley barbour, king of the south. >> i have a theory on this, too. >> let's listen to haley barbour. >> if this election is where ought to be, and that is a referendum on how president obama has done, a republican's going to win. if herman cain is our nominee running against barack obama, i think he'll sweep the south. >> "he'll sweep the south." do you want to counter haley barbour? >> if he's the nominee. >> okay. >> i mean, will he win north carolina, virginia? i don't think so. but i don't think he'll be the nominee. we won't have to worry about haley's prediction. >> i'm going to go back to what you were saying. he's not going to be the number two. he's not going to be number one. my argument is this.

mitt romney is more vulnerable than herman cain as a nominee, because he is very vulnerable with 77% of the party who relentlessly won't support him, even in polls. he's got a problem. it might be the religion problem, i don't think so . i think it's the ideological problem. they don't trust him as a conservati conservative. whereas herman cain, everything he's done has said, i am a conservative. and you think it's going to be going through the weeds of his economic program that's going to kill him. >> i think he can't sustain any scrutiny on his program or anything else, even for republican primary voters. >> let's take a look at him. here is haley barbour and what he had to say on laura ingraham's radio show after herman cain, about herman cain. let's watch. >> he's attracted a very good following, in my family. you know, i think if it were today, my wife would vote for herman cain. one of my sons -- i've got grown children -- from the first day said, dad, do you know herman cain? i said, sure, i've known him since i was chairman. he said, i like him, i like what he says. and that's one of his great strengths, laura.

he is likable. he does not give you the impression that he's full of himself. >> why are so many republicans in poll after poll saying herman cain? >> why so many? we've only had this for a week or so now. >> nbc's got the best poll in the country and he's number one in it. >> he is now. we were going on and on about donald trump last spring. michele bachmann seemed to be the anti-romney candidate. there is a taste, a desire, a craving for someone other than mitt romney. but as anyone has come up, they've fallen very quickly. >> who's going to replace him on that job? that's my point. is he the last guy on the right standing? >> he's the last front-runner. we haven't had a santorum bubble yet. >> i've been logical about this. i've watched what you watch. we've sat at this table watching trump do his number. watched bachmann do her run, watch perry fizzle. this guy has succeeded all of them. who will succeed him who hasn't already fizzled? answer? who will succeed him who hasn't already fizzled?

>> i would say that the best bet would be a perry comeback, and then say, a newt gingrich rise. >> a perry comeback? >> yes. he has the money, he'll have the consultants, and -- >> did you watch him in the debate? >> oh, i think he's awful. >> "the washington post" debate, he was a groundhog. >> he can't stay awake. this man cannot stay awake past 8:00 in the evening. i don't know -- >> let's put perry on tv right now with herman cain. who wins the the debate? one on one? >> well, that's a really good question, because neither one of them have any policies to talk about. i mean, cain is certainly more personable and he's been a better debater, but do you think -- i'll ask you this. can he say 9-9-9 from here until election day and nothing else? >> we'll go in now, we'll go into the weeds with you, where you really want to go. timothy egan of "the new york times" describes cain's economic plan like this, "in essence cain is proposing the largest shift in tax burden from the wealthy to the poor" -- sounds like the republican party to me. and the middle class of the nation. sounds like what they want to

do. he apparently would scrap the two great government programs that keep millions clinging to fragile middle class, social security and medicare, because he wants to eliminate the payroll taxes that now pay for those -- so here you have a guy whose impulse is to shift wealth to wealthy people, basically. whose impulse is to get rid of great society programs. i know i'm being a bit of a cartoon here, but these are the impulses of the party we're talking about. >> and he also wants to tax beer. i mean, the thing is, most republicans don't get out there and say, hey, if you're making more than -- making less than $50,000 a year, we're going to tax you more. they know, they try to cut the edges a different way. but this guy's plan is such a bald effort to redistribute wealth from the top -- from the bottom to the top. >> every time he's been in a debate -- his numbers have gone up. thank you, david. coming up, the occupy wall street protesters are angry, of course, and their movement is strong, of course. but how much sway do they have with voters? will they change policy? will they change americans'

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welcome back to "hardball." this morning, between 600 and 700 protesters gathered in lower manhattan as part of the occupy wall street movement. a planned cleanup of their protest area in which protesters would have left the park temporarily raised concern they might be evicted. so the protesters won and the cleanup was postponed. but police later arrested 14 protesters who had marched down to wall street. so will there be any political ramifications from that's protests? u.s. congressman charlie rangel supports the protesters and joins me from capitol hill. mr. rangel, it comes down to, there's a lot of support, maybe overwhelming support, for the

feelings of inequality that are being expressed on the streets of new york. my question to you, sir, you've been on ways and means for a long time, is there any way that something good will come out of this? >> of course there is. right now, like with throughout america, they are merely indicating their frustration. i really hope that as a result of this happening throughout these united states that we find some of our spiritual leaders joining with them and giving them some direction, because in addition to the unemployment, we also have a real attack on the vulnerable, the sick, the aged, and this is happening in the congress. and we haven't heard at all from the ministers. and the only way for them to be active is to get active, register, vote. do something. right now, that leadership is missing. and i only wish that our community leaders could go down

there and see these kids, they're good people, many of them are gone through college, they don't have a job, they know they'll never be able to even aspire to what their parents have done. and it's frustrating as hell to be that helpless and that hopeless. >> let's talk about two areas they seem to be angry about. one is inequality of income. looks to me like members of both party, including yourself, have supported the differential on taxes. that the people who make money off money, off capital gains, pay 15% in taxes, and the people who make money off work, working 40 or 50 hours a week, with sweat equity in their job, they pay up to 35%. is there any way the congress will ever equalize those two rates of taxes? >> i hope so. you know, they talk about the power of money and getting people elected, but it's not really just the fact that there's a disparity in terms of the tax rate that people pay on capital gains as well as on

their income, there are two things too. one of the things is that the disparity exists where just a handful of americans own almost half of the wealth in this country. and the middle class, which is really the heartbeat of our economy, the heartbeat of our country, is shrinking and the poor are just growing larger and larger. and one out of every five kids in america is born into poverty. that is danger enough. the other problem that we have is that it is perceived that when the bankers were in trouble, when the financial institutions were in trouble and bush told us and obama really underlined it, that we had to take taxpayers' money, invest it into these fiscal institutions or the whole economy would collapse and we would have international repercussions. well, people saw that, they

didn't march, they didn't protest, they just saw it. and right after that, the people who pay taxes when they could lose all of their jobs, their hopes, their savings, their homes, and you have the disparity there. so there's enough to be angry about. >> well, i'm hoping you can get something done as a result of all this street action. maybe the street is the new political stage in this country. thank you, u.s. congressman, charlie rangel of new york, in fact, of manhattan. joining me right now is michael lewis who wrote "moneyball," on which the movie was based, as well as "the blind side." his newest book is called "boomerang." and so by the way, i loved what aaron sorkin was able to do with your book. i loved "moneyball," by the way. i'm not even sure what it was about. it was about something bigger than baseball, but we can't talk about it here. it's too deep and cosmic for me. there's something grand about it. but shortly, can you tell me quickly, in a sentence or two, what was "moneyball" about and what was "boomerang" about.

>> at its heart, "moneyball" was about the way markets, even the markets for baseball players misvalue people and the way people get misperceived. i mean, it's an astonishing story that baseball players can be systemically undervalued and some team can come along and take advantage of that. and that's, at bottom, what it was about. "boomerang" is really an extension of a book i wrote a year ago, published a year ago, "the big short," about the financial crisis. i mean, i think what you're seeing down on wall street is an expression of the fact that the financial crisis has never really ended. that it got -- that the debts that were -- that the bad investments that were made by banks have been effectively nationalized around the world. and you got now sovereign states that are not credible, financially. and you see -- >> what are the people -- i'm sorry. what are the people up in those buildings and those well-appointed offices looking down on these people thinking

right now? are they a little scared? are they chuckling at it? what do you think their emotional reaction is though this craziness we're looking at? there's people being pushed around by the police, a guy down there in a crouching position. what are those people thinking up there in the high-rises? >> if i had to guess, i would think they didn't think it doesn't concern them very much yet. put yourself in the position of someone inside a goldman sachs or a morgan stanley. you've had your way with the world, you know? your firm would have been out of business but for taxpayer intervention and support. you got restored to health and then you proceeded to wreak havoc with any attempts to reform you. what are a few people on the street going to do to you? i think they'd be wrong to think that, but i'm sure they're viewing it with some indifference. >> let's talk about this election coming up and what this boomerang means here. i keep reading the market every day, and every day i ask somebody from cnbc or somewhere, what the heck's going on,

because it seems to me that obama can't move the unemployment rate. it's around 9. he's not going to get anything through congress the next year. it seems what's going to drive the unemployment rate are these international realities with the european mess, greece. what would you worry about in the next year? if you were obama and gene sperling, his economic adviser sitting in the white house right now, what would scare the heck out of you between now and next november? >> well, you're right. he's not going to get anything through congress. so he's going to be dealing with a high unemployment rate no matter what happens. but the thing i would be scared of right now is another banking crisis, and it's triggered by a greece default, or even an italian default. i mean, that the banks own large amounts of sovereign debt, and the minute one of these places goes down, and especially if it goes down messily. if greece announces tomorrow that, you know, you're going to get 30 cents on the dollar back if, on greek government bonds. french banks, german banks come under attack. and they're interconnected with our banks.

so you're back exactly where you were in 2008. where you have to choose between letting the financial system go down or come in looking like you're friends with the fat cats on wall street. if i had to guess, that's what they're afraid of. they're going to have to be put in that position again and it will show that these institutions are still too big to fail. they can't let them go down. >> so all the effort to try to bind up and perhaps reform wall street after bush left and obama came in, all that stuff, around the time of t.a.r.p., to try to clean up the system with dodd/frank and everything, really left us still at the whim of the big shots? >> we're still vulnerable, yes. it's -- the situation is a little different, but still, basically, if goldman or jpmorgan or someone walks into the treasury tomorrow and says, we're insolvent, we need help, or we're not going to open the doors tomorrow, i don't think the treasury's going to have any choice but to do what they did all over again.

>> thank you michael lewis. up next, herman cain's hoping his candidacy doesn't melt away like this choice of ice cream, actually. stick around for the sideshow. i still think that guy is rocky on the republican side. you're watching "hardball." gome abigail higgins had... ...a tree that bore the most rare and magical fruit. which provided for their every financial need. and then, in one blinding blink of an eye, their tree had given its last. but with their raymond james financial advisor, they had prepared for even the unthinkable. and they danced. see what a raymond james advisor can do for you. with olay challenge that. regenerist day and night duo. the uv lotion helps protect skin and firms during the day. the cream hydrates to firm at night. gravity doesn't stand a chance. regenerist, from olay.

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i saved hundreds when switching. we could use hundreds. yeah. wake up and smell the savings. out there with a better way. now, that's progressive. back to "hardball." now to the sideshow. first up, when sarah palin first grabbed some attention for calling gop candidate herman cain the flavor of the week, the initial speculation was that the candidate would take offense to the comment. well, since then cain has turned the tables and dubbed himself the black walnut after what he calls his own haagen-dazs flavor of choice. well, if you haven't seen that option in the grocery aisle lately, there's a reason. according to the haagen-dazs customer service line, "we don't sell black walnut. the sales nationally did not meet our expectations,

unfortunately. it did not behoove us to continue with thod well, thers a bad sign. a bad metaphor, if you want. apparently cain was not aware that his flavor of choice turned out not to be everybody else's. let's hear his thoughts on the matter. >> well, i was very disappointed to find out that it's a limited edition and they don't make haagen-dazs the way they used to, so i'm heartbroken over that. i now have my people calling haagen-dazs and finding out why they don't make haagen-dazs ice cream, when are they going to bring it back, because it's always been my all-time favorite. >> i don't know how a flavor can be your all-time favorite when you can't even buy it. next up on the attack freshman republican congressman allen west of florida attracted attention back in july for his nasty comments on fellow florida representative debbie wasserman schultz, who he called, quote, the most vile, unprofessional, and despicable member of the u.s. house of representatives. he's on the attack again, this time against president obama. here's part of an e-mail he sent to supporters.

"i truly believe president barack obama does not comprehend american exceptionalism. he does not fathom that in america, the station of your birth does not determine the station of your outcome. america is not about class or caste, it is about rewarding individuals for their drive and determination for their hard work and ideas." hmm. well, there's a tough sell he's got on his hands there. i think president obama himself is the clearest example of west's definition of american exceptionalism, isn't he, when you think about it? look where he is. and now for the big number. it might come as no surprise in this fall's gop debate since rick perry, who was dealt the most verbal punches by the other candidates. that's right, he played the role of pinata more often than all the other candidates combined. but, here's a shocker. who do you think threw the most punches at him? it was jon huntsman, with how many attacks on his opponents? 19. unfortunately for huntsman, the whacks don't seem to have

provided much momentum given his blaze in the polls. 19 times at bat for jon huntsman and that's tonight's big number. that's "hardball" for now. coming up next, "your business" with j.j. ramberg. ee noodle tra. the prognosis is bleak. you may need to soak overnight. nurse...! dawn power clean? it'll never work. [ female announcer ] dawn power clean with micro-scrubbing enzymes can give you the power of an overnight soak in just 5 minutes. [ sponge ] i give you a sparkling clean bill of health. it's a scientific miracle! [ female announcer ] dawn does more. [ sponge ] so it's not a chore. the pioneers. the aviators. building superhighways in an unknown sky. their safety systems built of brain and heart, transforming strange names from tall tales into pictures on postcards home.

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